Done Add Nintendo Cup 1997 and 2000 as Challenge-Only Formats

DragonWhale

DragonWhale

It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
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Can we have the official Nintendo tournament battle formats that existed during Gen 1 and 2 on PS as a challenge only option?

There are still tournaments in Japan that involves these formats but with no great way to practice it, and having it on PS is a great way for players in other countries to enjoy these formats as well.

There are '98 and '99 Nintendo Cup formats as well but they are spinoffs of '97 and nobody really plays them. '97 and 2000 are the main ones that people still play.
 
Marty said:
Note: Suggestions for new battle formats, new public/private rooms, or things Pokémon Showdown otherwise has no control over do not belong here.
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I feel like no one reads the sticky... :(. Though I also don't know where exactly requests like this should go. The Immortal?

From what I can tell, 2000 you can implement this with a BSS team style custom rule (select 3 from a team of 6). '97 is strange with its odd level requirements so would require additional support.
 
pre said:
I feel like no one reads the sticky... :(. Though I also don't know where exactly requests like this should go. The Immortal?

From what I can tell, 2000 you can implement this with a BSS team style custom rule (select 3 from a team of 6). '97 is strange with its odd level requirements so would require additional support.
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This is not a new battle format (rather it's technically the oldest one to ever exist lol), so I thought this was ok in this forum.

Both 97 and 2000 have the same level restrictions. You bring 6 pokemon between level 50-55 and choose 3 pokemon at preview and their level sum cannot surpass 155. So this probably would require another layer in the team validator (ie lowest three levels cannot surpass 155, or else you'd get stuck at preview) and an extra feature during team preview that prevents the player from surpassing 155.

Another thing to note when implementing these formats is that they differ from "Standard GBU" in that there's actually Freeze and Sleep clause (evasion and OHKO are still allowed).
 
Not sure if this is allowed, but I thought I'd bump this thread. These are essentially Nintendo's "old VGC" metagames, which are still extant through Pokemon Stadium if you think about it. And as others said above, they are still actively played. I'd love to see PS actively support the formats, as someone who uses Pokemon Battle Historia's articles quite frequently. They're seriously interesting formats, and Gen 1 with team preview already shakes up the meta quite a bit.

EDIT: A minor thought crossed my mind, I realized that there isn't actually a Level Limit mod available on PS. I believe this would need to be added onto the client if this was to be given the go-ahead.

There are also technically two variations of the Gen 1 Nintendo Cup rulesets, namely whether you're using the cartridge itself, or Stadium. Bulbapedia has details here. Gen 1 officially used Stadium in tournaments, although the Stadium World Tour 2000 used cartridge as well as Stadium. In today's context, this fundamentally makes two different formats due to the differences between the games. I would, personally, err on the side of Stadium for Gen 1, as that's what was used for Nintendo Cup 1997.
 
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Glad to see that the Nintendo Cups were approved. By the way, can we call the Nintendo Cups 97 and 2000 as Poke Cup in Pokémon Showdown's simulator when they are finally available? That is the international name and it wouldn't affect anything. Alternatively, you can give the formats both names when players select them, e.g. "Nintendo Cup 97/ Poke Cup" and "Nintendo Cup 2000/Poké Cup", that way international and japanese gamers would recognize the formats with more ease.
 
I have a temporal solution while we wait for a programmer to work on the Nintendo Cups. Last week, we hosted a Gen 1 Poké Cup tournament (aka Nintendo Cup 97) in the Ruins of Alph chatroom with a modified ruleset: team preview, 6 vs 6, all pokemon at level 55, evasion clause on and one hit ko moves banned. The tournament was a success, we had 14 players. Anyway, I think those rules are easier to program.

For Gen 2 Poke Cup, aka Nintendo Cup 2000, my friends and I use a similar ruleset: Team preview, Item Clause, 6 VS 6 mons, all at level 55, Evasion Clause On and One Hit KO moves banned.

Regarding the Nintendo Cups 98 and 99, we could use similar rulesets, also, those cups have the advantage that the Total Level Sum Rule doesn't exist.

Please remember that I said that these solutions would be temporal while we find a programmer that wants to add the other rules that are harder to program (3 out of 6, total level sum, etc.)

Below I include some replays and links to make my suggestions more clear:

Final match of the Gen 1 Poke Cup Tournament hosted on the Ruins of Alph chatroom: link
Original post of the Gen 1 Poke Cup Tournament: link
A Gen 2 Poke Cup friendly match: link
 
I have a few criticisms here, which I've talked about before regarding this modified ruleset. I fully respect you and what you do for the side formats, Beel, but I feel I should lay down the problems I have here in detail.

Beelzemon 2003 said:
I have a temporal solution while we wait for a programmer to work on the Nintendo Cups. Last week, we hosted a Gen 1 Poké Cup tournament (aka Nintendo Cup 97) in the Ruins of Alph chatroom with a modified ruleset: team preview, 6 vs 6, all pokemon at level 55, evasion clause on and one hit ko moves banned. The tournament was a success, we had 14 players. Anyway, I think those rules are easier to program.

For Gen 2 Poke Cup, aka Nintendo Cup 2000, my friends and I use a similar ruleset: Team preview, Item Clause, 6 VS 6 mons, all at level 55, Evasion Clause On and One Hit KO moves banned.
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Having the format on Showdown as a Challenge-only format is very different from having the temporarily modified ruleset; this is an official format that is actively played by many people outside of the Smogon community. You can go here and see many games in Japan being played in recent times, with decent viewership. You can also find more videos here by Gold, who also broadcasts on Niconico regularly. There is viewership here and an active community. This is important, as it illustrates my issues with the modified ruleset.

The problem The Immortal had with adding the format is the level sum rule, nothing else. The 6v6 and clauses being added is completely arbitrary and doesn't tackle any problems. I believe the Team Preview and 3v3 additions aren't difficult as Battle Stadium formats already have this. Item Clause for 2000 is already a thing, that doesn't need to be said. Therefore, anything other than your level proposition is irrelevant to the problem. It only serves to make the format into something completely different and turns off everyone but the less than 30 people who play the modified ruleset. I strongly urge you to stop trying to sneak in rules that did not exist for this format in the first place. Otherwise, you may as well grab VGC 2020 and slap on Doubles OU rules.

If you want a temporary solution, then if anything, making every Pokemon L50 would make more sense. It's the minimum level and is used with Stadium Rentals. It also matches Battle Stadium and VGC rules. L55 gives Pokemon more moves (eg. Agility Articuno), but this further moves the format away from what Nintendo Cup 1997 was. I can completely understand locking the levels, as it does fix the level sum rule addition issue. You bought up that it's very difficult to enforce the level sum rule, as by the time you realize there's a violation, it's likely Turn 20. Despite all this, I do still feel it's deviating from what gives the format its flavour.

I understand that from a Tiering Policy standpoint the rules do make the format have more RNG, thus making it less competitive than Gen 1 OU. That's just how it is, VGC and Battle Stadium have similar criticisms. However, this isn't a Smogon format, so those rules shouldn't be applied. It isn't our place to change those rules when handling an official format added onto Showdown. I really don't get why players in the Smogon community would want to arbitrarily change the rules of an official format, with a genuine community out there. It's wrong. It's like the RBY Counter thing causing a bit of a culture shock among players who don't want it changed because they're used to the current implementation.

If there is any temporary fix to be implemented, it's locking the level to either 50 or 55. Even then, it's a bit odd. Perhaps launch it as Nintendo Cup 1997 / 2000 [Beta]?

Beelzemon 2003 said:
Regarding the Nintendo Cups 98 and 99, we could use similar rulesets, also, those cups have the advantage that the Total Level Sum Rule doesn't exist.

Please remember that I said that these solutions would be temporal while we find a programmer that wants to add the other rules that are harder to program (3 out of 6, total level sum, etc.)
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Nintendo Cup 98 and 99 are pretty easy to add given the lack of a level sum. You don't need to have clauses, 6v6, etc on there at all. To be honest, these could be very easily added, there just isn't a demand for it unlike 97 and 2000. I'd personally love to see them, but I'm one person!
 
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Even though setting all Pokemon to either level 50 or level 55 is a decent temporary solution, i think the level sum rule is completely necessary to capture what nintendo cup really *is* and a way to implement it properly should be a requirement for it to go online. I helped Plague Von Karma do some research into Nintendo Cup and what i learned was very intriguing. The level sum rule and the implications of it completely change how the meta is both built and played (to the point where from what i could see some pokemon have different recommended movesets depending on what level they are!) and having a nintendo cup format without the level sum rule would be pointless.
 
Molk said:
Even though setting all Pokemon to either level 50 or level 55 is a decent temporary solution, i think the level sum rule is completely necessary to capture what nintendo cup really *is* and a way to implement it properly should be a requirement for it to go online. I helped Plague Von Karma do some research into Nintendo Cup and what i learned was very intriguing. The level sum rule and the implications of it completely change how the meta is both built and played (to the point where from what i could see some pokemon have different recommended movesets depending on what level they are!) and having a nintendo cup format without the level sum rule would be pointless.
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I feel like I should illustrate this a bit. Let's look at one of the most noticeable examples of a Pokemon that becomes viable under Nintendo Cup 1997: Dugtrio. Dugtrio is an extremely relevant threat in the format and is ranked A+ on Pokemon Battle Historia with an analysis.

:rb/dugtrio:
Dugtrio became viable in Nintendo Cup 1997 for many reasons. Its speed allows it to still outrun many L55 Pokemon at L50, thus meaning you don't have to spend levels to make the best use of it. In addition, it also means it avoids most OHKO moves (with only higher-level Dugtrio being a real threat). Being the fastest Fissure user is also super helpful, allowing it to be better on the OHKO front itself (higher speed allows you to land OHKO moves in Gen 1), all while having STAB Earthquake, Rock Slide and the best Slash in the game next to Persian. The 3v3 format also makes it significantly more offensive, which Dugtrio excels in.

By changing the rules, you are removing all of this.
Literally all of it.
 
Guys, I understand your concerns about changing some rules, but from my viewpoint it is better to have a modified Poke Cup on Showdown for some months and then having it fixed than not having anything because the programmers didn't want to invest time implementing some rules in the simulator's code.

Thanks to the changes I made to the rulesets of formats like this we finally had tournaments of them in the Ruins of Alph chatroom. Before I joined Showdown, the Poke Cup and MANY other formats were literally dead, thanks to my effort and the help of my friends we could revive them and document them.

Yes, you can complain that having Pika Cup, Petit Cup or Poke Cup with 6 mons per battle and max level pokemon is different, but those changes allowed us to revive those formats. When we hosted the tournaments, the players had a great deal of fun and when they asked why we didn't implement rules like 3 out of 6 I explained them the reasons, there was never a case where I said lies that those formats were always with 6 out of 6 pokemon.

Now, I will share my personal viewpoint. When I beat Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2 sixteen years ago I enjoyed the cups, but I was sad that not all of my six pokemon could compete in the same battle and that I had to only use three. The level sum was another rule that I didn't like because it handicapped two, three, four or five of my pokemon in terms of level, stats and, sometimes, level up moves. I think it would have been better if all pokemon allowed in, let's say, the Nintendo Cup 97 were at level 55, Nintendo even thought the same and for that reason they removed that dumb rule in the Nintendo Cups 98 and 99 (why they implemented it again in the Pika Cup, Petit Cup and Nintendo Cup 2000, is still a mystery to me).

Having battles of 6 vs 6 also benefits these side formats, don't believe me? In Pika Cup, the 3 out of 6 rule forces you to always have Chansey and Jynx in your team, which limits the variety of the cup dramatically, because only one pokemon per team is different. In Petit Cup things are the same: you always need Diglett and Exeggcute in your team because they are the best mons that exist there. In Poke Cup I already can see everybody using Jynx and Chansey, while the third mon is either Tauros, Exeggutor or Snorlax. Having battles of 6 vs 6 mons benefits these formats. As you can see, when I changed some rules I meditated about the changes, I didn't implemented them arbitrary.

By the way, when I wrote the rules in my Side Formats thread, I also wrote why I changed some of the rules, I never said lies that those were the original rules. I also said that players were free to disagree with my modified rules or with the original rules in the thread.

Returning to Poke Cup, you suggested using only level 50 pokemon. I strongly disagree with that because it changes more the format, some mons lose level up moves and Dragonite ends up being banned as a side effect.

Finally, looks like you think that I hate these formats and that I made my mission to destroy them, if that had been the case I wouldn't have revived them. I love these side formats with passion because I have fond memories of when I played them in the Stadium Games. These cups represent not only an era in Gaming, but also in History.

Anyway, that's all for now. I encourage you to continue sharing your opinions on this topic and I also thank you for reading my comment.
 
Beelzemon 2003 said:
Guys, I understand your concerns about changing some rules, but from my viewpoint it is better to have a modified Poke Cup on Showdown for some months and then having it fixed than not having anything because the programmers didn't want to invest time implementing some rules in the simulator's code.

Thanks to the changes I made to the rulesets of formats like this we finally had tournaments of them in the Ruins of Alph chatroom. Before I joined Showdown, the Poke Cup and MANY other formats were literally dead, thanks to my effort and the help of my friends we could revive them and document them.

Yes, you can complain that having Pika Cup, Petit Cup or Poke Cup with 6 mons per battle and max level pokemon is different, but those changes allowed us to revive those formats. When we hosted the tournaments, the players had a great deal of fun and when they asked why we didn't implement rules like 3 out of 6 I explained them the reasons, there was never a case where I said lies that those formats were always with 6 out of 6 pokemon.
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Having the format on Showdown as a Challenge-only format is very different from having the temporarily modified ruleset; this is an official format that is actively played by many people outside of the Smogon community. You can go here and see many games in Japan being played in recent times, with decent viewership. You can also find more videos here by Gold, who also broadcasts on Niconico regularly. There is viewership here and an active community. This is important, as it illustrates my issues with the modified ruleset.
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Please read this part of my post once again. You didn't "revive" Nintendo Cup 1997, the format has been played in many circles for years, with tournament VODs dating to last year being available for public viewing. Did you or did you not look at those links? You introduced a needlessly modified ruleset for some friends, which is fine. You aren't understanding the scale of going from battles among 14 friends to a worldwide audience on Showdown. This isn't Nintendo Cup 1997.

You do not need to add those clauses. You do not need to add 6v6. The only issue with adding it was the level sum limit. Once again, stop trying to sneak in rules for stuff you don't like. This is an official format, not a Smogon format.

Beelzemon 2003 said:
Now, I will share my personal viewpoint. When I beat Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2 sixteen years ago I enjoyed the cups, but I was sad that not all of my six pokemon could compete in the same battle and that I had to only use three. The level sum was another rule that I didn't like because it handicapped two, three, four or five of my pokemon in terms of level, stats and, sometimes, level up moves. I think it would have been better if all pokemon allowed in, let's say, the Nintendo Cup 97 were at level 55, Nintendo even thought the same and for that reason they removed that dumb rule in the Nintendo Cups 98 and 99 (why they implemented it again in the Pika Cup, Petit Cup and Nintendo Cup 2000, is still a mystery to me).

Having battles of 6 vs 6 also benefits these side formats, don't believe me? In Pika Cup, the 3 out of 6 rule forces you to always have Chansey and Jynx in your team, which limits the variety of the cup dramatically, because only one pokemon per team is different. In Petit Cup things are the same: you always need Diglett and Exeggcute in your team because they are the best mons that exist there. In Poke Cup I already can see everybody using Jynx and Chansey, while the third mon is either Tauros, Exeggutor or Snorlax. Having battles of 6 vs 6 mons benefits these formats. As you can see, when I changed some rules I meditated about the changes, I didn't implemented them arbitrary.

By the way, when I wrote the rules in my Side Formats thread, I also wrote why I changed some of the rules, I never said lies that those were the original rules. I also said that players were free to disagree with my modified rules or with the original rules in the thread.

Returning to Poke Cup, you suggested using only level 50 pokemon. I strongly disagree with that because it changes more the format, some mons lose level up moves and Dragonite ends up being banned as a side effect.

Finally, looks like you think that I hate these formats and that I made my mission to destroy them, if that had been the case I wouldn't have revived them. I love these side formats with passion because I have fond memories of when I played them in the Stadium Games. These cups represent not only an era in Gaming, but also in History.

Anyway, that's all for now. I encourage you to continue sharing your opinions on this topic and I also thank you for reading my comment.
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Just because you were sad about not being able to use all 6 Pokemon and didn't like the level limit doesn't mean you can try to force these rules on a community of people who have played the format for years. In addition, Chansey isn't even that great in a 3v3 format due to how devastating Sleep and Freeze are. It's severely hurt by Lead Jynx because of these factors. It's also destroyed by OHKO Moves. Note that it's E Tier on NC97 viability, despite having an analysis. The only reason Chansey is good in your eyes is because of how much you changed the format. Your assumptions about this format are rooted in a modified ruleset which essentially makes the format Gen 1 OU. If you don't like a format, don't play it.

I never accused you of anything and I respect you for your work in the past, not sure where you got that from. However, I dislike how you pushed the modified ruleset as if it is standard, which I have thoroughly established isn't. I also have not painted you as someone out to destroy the format, however, I believe your proposed changes are extremely arbitrary in the context of making them a challenge format on Showdown. There is a gigantic difference between a tournament among friends and an actual format on Showdown.
 
Now, I will share my personal viewpoint. When I beat Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2 sixteen years ago I enjoyed the cups, but I was sad that not all of my six pokemon could compete in the same battle and that I had to only use three. The level sum was another rule that I didn't like because it handicapped two, three, four or five of my pokemon in terms of level, stats and, sometimes, level up moves.
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From Plague and I's research, i heavily disagree with this. I think of the level sum rule and how it affects building as less of handicapping your team members and more as a way to buff a pokemon beyond what they would be capable of at level 50. Leveling up a Pokemon beyond level 50 allows the user to have their team member be bulkier, stronger, and faster than they would normally be with the opportunity cost of not being able to use those levels on your other team members, i almost view those extra levels as sort of a "proto mega evolution" because the benefits and costs are somewhat similar.

EDIT: think about it this way, because the level limit is 155 and the minimum level a pokemon can be is 50, 150 of those levels are already used by default, the level sum isn't crippling your pokemon by not allowing them to all be level 55, what it's really doing is giving an you 5 extra levels you can use on your pokemon to buff them up without being penalized by the ruleset.

The level sum rule is also important to the spirit of the format because of how it interacts with speed: something that isn't really a thing in your version of the format (where i agree with plague where you basically just made it RBY OU in the process of altering the rules). Pokemon can now be leveled up to outspeed Pokemon they normally wouldn't, and Pokemon with higher speed stats can still outrun the majority of the metagame without needing to have levels pumped into them to do so. This effect on the metagame is very visible when you look at the NC97 tier list, where Pokemon such as Electrode, Jolteon, and Dugtrio are considered noticeably better than they would be in your version of the format/RBY OU. This dynamic makes Poke Cup unique, and it's extremely important that it stays.

In Poke Cup I already can see everybody using Jynx and Chansey, while the third mon is either Tauros, Exeggutor or Snorlax. Having battles of 6 vs 6 mons benefits these formats. As you can see, when I changed some rules I meditated about the changes, I didn't implemented them arbitrary.
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This sentence right here, to be frank, displays a lack of understanding on how the Poke Cup metagame actually works and what's strong in it. While it's true that Jynx, Tauros, and Exeggutor are strong picks in the format, Snorlax and Chansey are considered by the japanese community to be pretty weak picks due to their low speed stats making them vulnerable to sleep, freeze, and OHKO moves while also often requiring extra levels to be pumped into them for their power/bulk to be up to par, which is a notable opportunity cost.
 
@Plague von Karma Yes, you're right, in part: thankfully, Poke Cup has been played in Japan since 1997 so no one had to revive it there; however, you're also wrong in part, in Pokemon Showdown, Poke Cup was literally dead for many years, I don't know the exact number, but the point is that nobody played it before I joined and yes, I was the person that revived Poke Cup in Showdown, I have access to the official tournaments' results sheet of ROA and I can guarantee you that Poke Cup only appears once: the time that Alpha Male Psyduck and I organized the tournament eighth days ago (june 1st, 2020). You can say that I only revived a modified version of it if you want, but I consider a bit rude the fact that you didn't recognize my credit by saying that I never revived the Poké Cup.

@Molk No, my modified ruleset is not Gen 1 OU. Have you seen someone playing Gen 1 OU with Team Preview before? I haven't and Team Preview changes Gen 1: matches are faster and it is harder to win using gimmick pokémon since they lose their biggest strength: their surprise factor. Using level 55 pokémon also changes the damage dealt from crits from 1.96 to 1.92 (I used rounded numbers), so as you can see, my modified version of Poké Cup is not Gen 1 OU. Plague von Karma once watched one of my Modified Poké Cup matches, have you seen one too? Are you sure that the format is as bad as you say it is? Yes, I agree that it is not the true Poké Cup, but wouldn't it be more objective from your part to at least watch one match before saying it is bad? I've already watched MANY videos of the true Poké Cup that Plague Von Karma sent me. If I have watched and played both versions of Poké Cup, I think that you at least can watch one match, in fact here is the final of the tournament that we hosted: final

By the way, yes, I know that the level sum rule has its value. I may not like that rule, but I know that it requires skill to decide how you're going to distribute your levels. Maybe you can enter with two level 50s and four level 55s, however, your opponent will already know two of the pokemon that you are going to use. You can also have five level 50s and one level 55 which brings a similar problem: it is super obvious that you will choose the level 55 mon. Another option is to have four level 51s and two level 52s, which will make you unpredictable; however, the level 52s won't be as strong as a level 55 pokémon. Each level combination has its strengths and weaknesses and it requires skill to choose the level distribution that benefits your team more.

As you can see, I am empathic towards those that have a different viewpoint from mine, I only ask that you do the same.
 
It sounds like y'all are having completely different arguments.

Beelzemon 2003 Your format may be different from Gen 1 OU, but it sure as hell ain't similar to the official format in question. For that reason alone, it makes no sense to have your format stand in for the official one while the level thing gets sorted out. It would be like using a pineapple to stand in for an orange as opposed to a grapefruit.
 
Beelzemon 2003 said:
@Plague von Karma Yes, you're right, in part: thankfully, Poke Cup has been played in Japan since 1997 so no one had to revive it there; however, you're also wrong in part, in Pokemon Showdown, Poke Cup was literally dead for many years, I don't know the exact number, but the point is that nobody played it before I joined and yes, I was the person that revived Poke Cup in Showdown, I have access to the official tournaments' results sheet of ROA and I can guarantee you that Poke Cup only appears once: the time that Alpha Male Psyduck and I organized the tournament eighth days ago (june 1st, 2020). You can say that I only revived a modified version of it if you want, but I consider a bit rude the fact that you didn't recognize my credit by saying that I never revived the Poké Cup.

As you can see, I am empathic towards those that have a different viewpoint from mine, I only ask that you do the same.
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Nobody here is disregarding or disrespecting your viewpoint. We're criticising it because the orders of magnitude here are so different. You're going from a format that 14 people have played in a tournament to a far bigger audience; one with people who play the format. Just because the Smogon community has never tried it doesn't mean the format was dead. Of course the format would be dead: it isn't playable and running a tournament is an actual nightmare.

Poke Cup = Nintendo Cup 1997. There is no difference in format here. It was renamed for localisation purposes. You have, by definition not revived it. However, credit goes to you for popularising it with a western audience and encouraging them to try it out. However, the modified ruleset, in my opinion, was a massive loss to the introduction of the format and has morphed it in a way that does not remotely resemble the format.

Allow me to illustrate. This is NC97's overall ruleset:
  • 6 Pokemon Party, bring 3. 3v3 format.
  • Level Range of 50-55
  • Level Sum Limit of 155
  • Sleep Clause
  • Freeze Clause (Stadium Only due to GB issues)
  • Species Clause
  • Self-KO Clause
  • Team Preview is available
  • Mew and Mewtwo are banned
Your ruleset removes every rule bar the clauses and the Mew and Mewtwo ban. You add OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, change the level cap to 55. You have, quite literally, completely changed the format. The differences between your format and the real Nintendo Cup 1997 are gigantic, and you have done nothing to demonstrate how Pokemon such as Dugtrio would still work.

It should be noted that I do not dislike your format. My issue with your format is that it's not Nintendo Cup 1997 at all and if anything, it's Gen 1 OU with L55s and Team Preview. It should not stand in for the format if the devs choose to make any temporary measure.
 
Beelzemon 2003 said:
@Molk No, my modified ruleset is not Gen 1 OU. Have you seen someone playing Gen 1 OU with Team Preview before? I haven't and Team Preview changes Gen 1: matches are faster and it is harder to win using gimmick pokémon since they lose their biggest strength: their surprise factor. Using level 55 pokémon also changes the damage dealt from crits from 1.96 to 1.92 (I used rounded numbers), so as you can see, my modified version of Poké Cup is not Gen 1 OU. Plague von Karma once watched one of my Modified Poké Cup matches, have you seen one too? Are you sure that the format is as bad as you say it is? Yes, I agree that it is not the true Poké Cup, but wouldn't it be more objective from your part to at least watch one match before saying it is bad? I've already watched MANY videos of the true Poké Cup that Plague Von Karma sent me. If I have watched and played both versions of Poké Cup, I think that you at least can watch one match, in fact here is the final of the tournament that we hosted: final
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I just wanted to make things clear here: I never said that your format was bad. The point that i was making was that your format is way too different to be an effective stand in for Poke Cup, the differences your format has from Poke Cup run so deep that from watching the replay that you linked it was almost unrecognizable as a stand in for the format in question. If anything, your replay solidified my opinion that your format is closer to the RBY OU format that smogon currently uses with the additions of lower leveled pokemon and team preview. You said that adding team preview makes matches in your format faster, but i don't think the replay that you provided was a very good example here, as the match you linked was a 183 turn match that relied on two chanseys attempting to stall each other out for a large amount of turns. By comparison, matches in pure Poke Cup are blazing fast, as you can see in the two videos i'm going to link below, as well as in Plague von Karma's playlist that she linked several posts ago. The longest video is 24 minutes long, but due to the downtime, it's 19 minutes. No game here goes over 20 minutes, while your replay would take like an hour to finish in in-game time.


 
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I'm not sure why there's a debate on having some random custom format over what was and still is considered an official format, but if we can avoid having more complications with this suggestion than what is already present (due to the difficulty in its implementation), I'd greatly appreciate it.
 
Molk said:
You said that adding team preview makes matches in your format faster, but i don't think the replay that you provided was a very good example here, as the match you linked was a 183 turn match that relied on two chanseys attempting to stall each other out for a large amount of turns.
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When I said that matches were faster, I was comparing "my version" of Poké Cup with Gen 1 OU to clarify that both formats were different, I wasn't trying to say that my version of Poke Cup was faster than the true Poké Cup. Yes, a 183 turns battle is long, but battles in Gen 1 OU can be longer than that (I've been in 500 turns battles). In the semi-final my battle took 35 turns, here is the replay: Semi-final
 
So some things came to mind regarding the implementation of this.

Mechanics
Nintendo Cup 1997 was played on cartridge in Japan only, so I'm assuming Japanese Cartridge Mechanics should be used here? In which, 30% Freeze Blizzard would be around. The "Binding move wrong side fainting glitch" should also be considered. It's a bit odd, but it should be implemented if you aim to replicate Japanese Cartridge. However, it seems exclusive to JP 1.1, so you could use JP 1.0. Freeze Clause is also only enforced on Stadium, so that would be removed for Cartridge.

But since Showdown is international, would we use the normal sim with international mechanics? Personally I'd prefer the JP mechanics since it's the current standard, but I wouldn't mind either of em.

EDIT: Swift Accuracy Glitch will need to be in too. Due to a bug, the never miss effect only occurs on Substitutes. Thus, in any other circumstance, it's just a 100% accuracy move.

Level Sum in Teambuilder
Beelzemon 2003 had an idea regarding how to validate teams. If the level total of all 6 Pokemon is above 320, then it mathematically cannot be legal. The only legal team you could make with the most levels possible would be 2 L50s and 4 L55s, which totals to 320. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to make it past team preview. So when validating teams, the checker could total the levels and check if it's above 320. I'm not sure if there are any other level complications that could bypass this, though. I think this should accelerate programming in the level sum thing if there are issues.

This is wrong due to inbetween levels, such as 6x L52. DragonWhale said that a way to pull this off is that to check if the three lowest levels don't surpass 155, which makes more sense.
 
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Poké Cup official rules

Hi all, yesterday Plague Von Karma, Molk, Alpha Male Psyduck and I reviewed your suggestions and decided to write a summary of the original rules of the Poké Cup/Nintendo Cup 97, the intention of this post is to let the programmers to know that we want the format to keep its original rules once it gets featured in Pokémon Showdown. Another intention of this post is to give some tips to the programmers to know how they can enforce the rules in the simulator.

The following information will be a bit repetitive for those that have already read the previous posts in this thread, but still, we recommend you to check it. Without further ado, here are the rules:

-International Gen I Mechanics: Also known as Colosseum 1 in Pokémon Red, Blue and Yellow. These are the mechanics that we use all days to play common formats of Gen I like Overused and Ubers. If possible, we also suggest using Japanese Gen I mechanics if they’re easy to program in the simulator’s code (these mechanics basically have two important changes: Blizzard’s Freeze rate is 30 % and Draining Moves, like Mega Drain, always fail against a Substitute).

-Species Clause

-Uber pokémon banned: Mewtwo and Mew are not allowed.

-You must enter with six pokémon, no less: If your team has five or less pokémon, the Team Builder should mark your team as illegal and the Challenge Window should prevent you from starting a battle.

-Your team must have pokémon from levels 50 to 55: The combined sum level of your six pokémon should be between 300 and 320. This range allows players to use any known combination of levels, e.g. six level 50s or two level 50s and four level 55s. ALSO, at least three of your six pokemon level sum should be between 150 and 155, otherwise some combinations could prevent you from starting a battle, e.g. six level 52s. Again, if your team breaks this rule, the Challenge Window shouldn’t allow you to start the battle.

-Team preview ON: This rule has been used since the original format was held in 1997.

-Choose three out of six pokémon: During team preview you have to choose three of your six pokémon. The three chosen pokémon will be used for the battle. Either player can activate the timer during the selection phase.

-Level sum of the chosen pokémon must be between 150 and 155: Another rule of the original format that you wanted to keep intact. The three pokémon chosen must have a combined level sum of 150 – 155, if you break this rule you won’t be able to start the battle.

-Team preview is OFF once the battle starts: Like in the real tournament and the Pokémon Stadium games, once the battle starts you won’t be able to know which pokemon your opponent chose aside from his lead.

-Sleep Clause

-Freeze Clause is turned OFF: Yes, you read right, the Japanese have played without Freeze Clause during all these 23 years and they haven’t complained, also, in the true International Pokemon Cartridge games Freeze Clause doesn’t exist (unless you play on Colosseum 2, but we already agreed to not use that mode).

-Evasion Moves are allowed: These moves have always been allowed in Japan when they play Poké Cup.

-One Hit KO Moves are allowed: Same as with the previous rule. One Hit KO moves have always been a part of Poké Cup.

-Self-KO Clause On: Another clause that has always been used in Poké Cup. If your last remaining pokémon uses Self-Destruct or Explosion and dies, you lose the match even if you also KO your opponent’s last pokémon. This rule is ignored if your pokémon survives the exploding move, e.g. if it breaks a Substitute. We want to emphasize that this rule should be enforced because it was recently removed from challenge matches in Gens 1 and 2. We don’t want Poké Cup battles to end in ties due to the use of these moves. If your last pokémon explodes and dies, you lose.

-Endless Battle Clause

We now need to discuss what should we do if both opponents lose their last pokémon as a result of a recoil move like Take Down, Double Edge or Submission. In recent VGC tournaments, the recoil move user wins. Should we do the same?

We want to thank Smogon’s programmers in advance for approving the inclusion of this format and we understand if they can’t enforce one or more of our suggested rules due to technical difficulties.

By the way, I also support Plague von Karma’s suggestion of also adding the Nintendo Cups 98 and 99 to the list of challenge formats.
 
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