Is it just me or are the sample teams badly maintained? Almost all of them have an edit you have to make to them that newer players don't really know how to do. "add refresh on swampert" Instead of what?? "Replace tyranitar with someone better into curselax like metagross or suicune" I just got here, you expect me to know how to build a metagross set that does well with the team and into curse snorlax? it feels like it defeats the purpose of sample teams. Sorry if this came off as rude, and if there is another place with better sample teams, lmk.
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Resource ADV Beginner's Lounge - Rules/FAQ, Resources, Question & Answer
- Thread starter vapicuno
- Start date
I am in charge of sample teams at the moment so let me respond.
Many of the teams work perfectly fine without the edits. They’re not optimal in the current metagame, but they will get the new player through the lower rungs of ladder without the edits and said player wouldn’t really feel a difference.
Why don’t I remove the sample teams if they are “outdated” or “not optimal” then? History has shown endlessly that contemporary players would comment about sets and team styles being outdated only for some veteran to show up with the oldest sets and teams to an important tournament and still beat everyone. Amidst metagame changes, the essence of many teams remains the same and the little set/mon changes are small adaptations. The teams shown are presented in the original form from when they were dominant.
So, as a new player, go ahead and use Tyranitar with skarm dug dol milo bliss. You probably wouldn’t notice the difference if you used Metagross instead of Tyranitar. By the time you start to see the difference, you probably don’t need the sample teams anymore, or you know how to make the optimizations pointed out.
There might be an effort in the near future to change something about the sample teams. It will probably be discussed soon, but I think my main message is that if you think the comments defeat the purpose of the sample teams, don’t read them and just try it out. They are fine.
If you still want the answers to “Add refresh on Swampert instead of what?” See https://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/swampert/
Thanks for the response! On the smogon page, refresh swampert can either be standard defensive or surf defensive. Standard defensive is the closest to the original set, so I assume that i would use that refresh set, but if I could ask, what does the standard defensive set give over the toxic/surf set in respect to filling holes in the team? This is purely to help my knowledge of the metagame, and thanks again for the response!
Please note that I’m not good enough to be confident that I’m not overlooking something obvious.
The extra coverage is really nice when Swampert is responsible for handling dangerous physical attackers Metagross and Salamence. The is particularly relevant because Swampert is typically seen as an all-in-one physical wall (instead of using a combination like Claydol, Suicune and Dugtrii). Running ice beam also allows for a stronger hit on Celebi, one of Swampert’s most common switch in’s. EQ is nice for beating some Jirachi variants as well. There are also a ton of smaller, indirect things which the bonus coverage allows for. For example, hydro pump can be used over surf for a more powerful hit since you have other 100% accurate moves (with extra PP).
The downside is that you only have one status move compared to mono/refresh pert (only attack is surf). The biggest place this shows up is in the Skarmory matchup. 3 attacks Swampert can’t really stay in on Skarmory in prolonged games, due to the risk of toxic (which refresh Swampert can refresh off). You can swap toxic over protect to fix this issue, but then you don’t have protect for chip heal/scouting/stalling, etc. I do still like refresh, 3 attacks on certain spinnerless balance teams since you can’t afford to give Skarm free turns or compromise on coverage without robust defensive teammates.
Also, I agree with what Vapicuno has said but I personally prefer the sample teams in the revival discord (can be found through the revival tournaments youtube channel). They’re generally more relevant for the current meta, but worse compared to the historical peaks reached of the teams in the forum samples.
The extra coverage is really nice when Swampert is responsible for handling dangerous physical attackers Metagross and Salamence. The is particularly relevant because Swampert is typically seen as an all-in-one physical wall (instead of using a combination like Claydol, Suicune and Dugtrii). Running ice beam also allows for a stronger hit on Celebi, one of Swampert’s most common switch in’s. EQ is nice for beating some Jirachi variants as well. There are also a ton of smaller, indirect things which the bonus coverage allows for. For example, hydro pump can be used over surf for a more powerful hit since you have other 100% accurate moves (with extra PP).
The downside is that you only have one status move compared to mono/refresh pert (only attack is surf). The biggest place this shows up is in the Skarmory matchup. 3 attacks Swampert can’t really stay in on Skarmory in prolonged games, due to the risk of toxic (which refresh Swampert can refresh off). You can swap toxic over protect to fix this issue, but then you don’t have protect for chip heal/scouting/stalling, etc. I do still like refresh, 3 attacks on certain spinnerless balance teams since you can’t afford to give Skarm free turns or compromise on coverage without robust defensive teammates.
Also, I agree with what Vapicuno has said but I personally prefer the sample teams in the revival discord (can be found through the revival tournaments youtube channel). They’re generally more relevant for the current meta, but worse compared to the historical peaks reached of the teams in the forum samples.
Been using the classic big 5 TSS sample team to some success, but I would really appreciate it if someone could answer some questions I have about the team. I haven't changed anything, though the suggestion does say to use defensive starmie over offensive, and tbolt ice punch gengar, even though the team already has it, which is kinda confusing lol.
1. When do I ever click boom on gengar? Not only does it feel super risky, it seems quite predictable, as if I haven't revealed taunt, they know it is most likely explosion, and will not risk blissey against it. The team also doesn't feel like it has any desperate explosion targets, as the only special attacker that massively benefits from blissey being gone is starmie, and the team suggests making it a defensive set anyway.
2. how do I beat suicune? Blissey can do barely anything, especially without seismic, and sleep talk makes it so skarmory can't really come in and roar it out. Do I just have to save gengar and explode late game?
3. In what leads would I press spike? do I risk the fire blast from tyranitar to get the first spike up? Salamence and metagross seem like a safe spike, and zapdos is an obvious switch, but everything else isn't really clear.
Sorry if this is too much for the thread, but I would love if someone could answer even just one of these questions. Thank you!
1. When do I ever click boom on gengar? Not only does it feel super risky, it seems quite predictable, as if I haven't revealed taunt, they know it is most likely explosion, and will not risk blissey against it. The team also doesn't feel like it has any desperate explosion targets, as the only special attacker that massively benefits from blissey being gone is starmie, and the team suggests making it a defensive set anyway.
2. how do I beat suicune? Blissey can do barely anything, especially without seismic, and sleep talk makes it so skarmory can't really come in and roar it out. Do I just have to save gengar and explode late game?
3. In what leads would I press spike? do I risk the fire blast from tyranitar to get the first spike up? Salamence and metagross seem like a safe spike, and zapdos is an obvious switch, but everything else isn't really clear.
Sorry if this is too much for the thread, but I would love if someone could answer even just one of these questions. Thank you!
I should remove the bolt ice punch suggestion - original had fire punch > Ice punch.
Actually, Taunt and boom are fine, and I might even prefer Taunt here. Exactly for the situation you described with Suicune. The short answer is, yes, you save Gengar and explode late game. Note this team was made before Sleep Talk Suicune became a big thing, but suppose Suicune is the last Pokemon without Sleep Talk, you could do something like this: Toxic with Blissey until it rests. Predict the rest turn and send in Tyranitar. Focus Punch twice. Sacrifice ttar and boom with Gengar. Or, if you had Taunt Gengar, then you could play Taunt vs CM/Rest mind games at the end with Suicune to win. Unfortunately, Sleep Talk Suicune does make things hard. You could (and probably should) run Thunderbolt > Fire Blast on Blissey to fish for crits.
Another reason to boom is to take out Claydol when you're on the losing end of spin blocking.
You always Spike unless you're facing Zapdos. Eat the Fire Blast from Tyranitar if you have to.
So taunt/explosion and fire blast/thunderbolt are customisable? I should probably run either tbolt blissey or explosion gengar to have an out with suicune, right? Thanks for the help! Lost a few too many games to last mon suicune so might run both lol
Yes. This is a very customizable team. You can even use Destiny Bond on Gengar over Ice Punch for extra Claydol/Calm Mind insurance. You can also use Modest Thunderbolt Spin Recover Starmie on this to hit Suicune hard while still being a decent spinner, for example.
This is why I say that it's not productive for me to build into the team every edit you can possibly make. There are a lot of options and unless you think very hard about it the differences are not obvious.
Sorry for even more questions, but is offensive starmie not a reliable spinner? I usually switch it in on skarmory and it does its job pretty well. I'm more interested in consistency and a long game, is it possible to use the smogon defensive set with thunderbolt to deal with suicune, or do I need to make it modest over timid?
Offensive starmie is a good spinner but what makes it shine is the pressure it can put out offensively with its high speed. Since it doesn't have recover and is quite frail you can only get a few key spins of though, so it can be argued that it is less reliable for guaranteeing spikes won't stay. You can use timid, modest does help more with the suicune matchup though. If there are certain things you want to outspeed timid could be worth considering.
I think i'll run timid for the gengar matchup and if i struggle into suicune i'll switch to modest. Thanks for the help!
Sorry to post here like 3 times in a row but is there something like a replay dump for specific styles of teams? I've stuck with the same defmie big 5 TSS and feel like I really need to watch someone else play this to have an idea of what to do lol. I'm stuck hovering around the 1400s because as soon as something doesn't go to plan it all falls apart, like facing a cune or lax when my counters are gone, getting magged and then not having a pivot into attackers, or even just who to switch into blissey in fear of getting toxiced lol. The SPL replays are nice, but I struggle to apply those to my team as their teams feel so different. Anything like a youtuber who plays classic TSS or a guide on how to play it?
You might find that sometimes the best solution is just to stay in and attack, hoping for misses / first turn wake. The odds are actually pretty good.