Resource ADV Beginner's Lounge - Rules/FAQ, Resources, Question & Answer

vapicuno

vapicuno

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:rs/tyranitar:​

Welcome to the ADV forum! This is a thread for beginners to our forum, and ADV, in general. It will function simultaneously as a thread for rules/FAQ, resources, and simple question and answers.

:skarmory: Subforum Rules & FAQ (READ!) :blissey:​
General forum rules are found here.
The ADV OU ruleset is found here.

Posts in the ADV subforum should contribute towards quality metagame discussion. Repeated low quality or irrelevant posts, such as one-liner passing comments, posts in the wrong threads, and unhelpful criticisms are all grounds for an infraction. If the meaning of all these is not clear, we encourage you to spend some time reading major threads in this subforum to understand what is acceptable.

Q: I'm new to ADV or competitive Pokemon in general. What do I do?
Ask questions in this thread to learn more about the metagame. Check out the rules of this thread at the bottom of this post. The other threads in this forum are for more well-informed players to discuss about the metagame, so we advise staying away from them until you get a good enough understanding.

Q: Do I need permission to post a new thread?
We (moderators) won't require strict permissions on posting new threads, but before that, we'd appreciate if you figure out if your thread belongs in one of the existing threads. For example, if you want to show everyone your cool new Regirock set and replays, we'd advise posting it in the Creative Sets thread. If you have a burning question about Sleep Talk mechanics, ask in here! If any threads are misplaced, we will lock/move them at our discretion. If you're not sure, it's better to ask one of the moderators in advance.

Q: Which threads don't belong in the ADV subforum?
Rate my teams - click here, non-competitive - click here. "What ifs" - we generally try to avoid them unless it's about potential bans.

Q: Who is in charge?
For forum-related matters, the moderators are Hiro', mielke, Star, and vapicuno. They make decision on the organization of the forum and enforce rules at their own discretion. For ADV OU tiering matters, the council members are Star, M Dragon, and SEA. They ensure that the ADV OU metagame is stable; they conduct suspect tests and make metagame changes should the need arise.

:zapdos: Resources :metagross:​

These resources are for ADV OU. For alternate tiers, check out the ADV lower/other tiers resource hub.
Bold = Recommended reading for beginners!

Threads tracking the metagame as it evolves
General and comprehensive guides to help you get into ADV
Sample teams and team dumps to help you get into ADV
Videos
Tournament Replays Archive

References
Guides
Small team dumps
Show my teams
Set Dumps
Miscellaneous

:celebi: Simple Question, Simple Answer :jirachi:​

Do you have a burning question about ADV? Experienced players can help you out right here in this thread! Note the following.
  • Try to explain your question as best as possible. The more information we have, the more able we will be to give you the correct answer.
  • When answer a question with a Yes or No answer, please quote the question you are referring to.
  • Try searching Google before asking here.
  • Ask questions to understand why things are how they are, instead of complaining about rules or making ill-informed suggestions.
  • Do not ask about ROMs or other illegal issues.
  • Try searching Smogon's resources before posting.
Fire away!
 
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Generally, Snorlax is one of the hardest things for special offense to handle because it's the only physically bulky pokemon that Dugtrio can't hit super effectively. If you dont have a solid check, you have to just keep attacking it (don't switch) and then Dug it, even if it means sacrificing Dugtrio.

Other times, special offense teams have some way to punch through. My Mag special spam in sample teams has Leech Celebi. Some special offense can afford Tyranitar (see linear's 2020 team dump and the lead Raikou team in McMeghan's post on linear's thread). Some others can use Metagross as you said. You can even consider using fighters. Lum Breloom is something I've used on special spam to switch into Snorlax without getting paralyzed by Body Slam.

Hope that helps.
 
Pineapplechunk said:
how much cleric support is generally considered overkill in this tier? are there successful teams that use wish AND heal bell/aromatherapy or should you just use more overall resilient pokes instead?
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imo the latter (just use more overall resilient pokes). your team has to be pretty slow to make decent use of cleric support, and that moveslot on celebi/blissey/etc comes with a hefty bit of opportunity cost because of how good those mons' movepools are. generally your team will have something with natural cure, maybe a refresh mon like milo or pert, and/or a number of mons capable of blanking common carriers of status (like what wish or cm rachi does to standard toxic milo) simply as a consequence of good teambuilding around metagame threats and playstyles as opposed to deliberately trying to counter status in general.

off the top of my head the only application of cleric support i've seen used to good effect is it being used alongside rest-using sweepers like curselax or cune to patch up downtime issues.

edit: i'm not gonna lie i legitimately didn't see that wish was mentioned LOL oops. my post is only in reference to heal bell and aromatherapy because i'm blind
 
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Pineapplechunk said:
how much cleric support is generally considered overkill in this tier? are there successful teams that use wish AND heal bell/aromatherapy or should you just use more overall resilient pokes instead?
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Wish is rather common, Cleric is most often seen on teams that put a lot of importance on long-lasting wincons that use Rest, usually Snorlax or Suicune.

There is a popular structure with Blissey / Suicune / Skarmory / Claydol + 2 of Gengar/Dugtrio/Jirachi where the Blissey is very often used with Aroma or HB for example. Another popular team a few years ago was Moltres / Umbreon / Donphan / Magneton / Celebi / Snorlax where the Celebi had Heal Bell. Both these teams use Wish & a Cleric (the first one only when it packs Jirachi in the last slots).
 
Pkmn trainer Rizzo said:
Who are the most common teammates for calm mind celebi? Is this set more useful than the batom pass set?
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It really depends on the calm mind set. Cm 3 attacks celebi classically fits w more aggressive calm mind users, such as jirachi and suicune alongside other enablers for special offense such as gengar, zapdos, tyranitar, and especially Dugtrio. My own personal stance is that calm mind 3 attacks celebi also fits well on more balanced teams as a general back up water answer, pace pusher against other balanced teams, and cleaner. Partners I’ve used alongside it include aero (cm celebi typically forces damage on toxic skarmory, a prominent late game aero check), metagross, and dd or mixed tyranitar alongside other balanced mainstays like defensive metagross, blissey (good way that your special wall doesn’t get dugged), and starmie.
There are other cm sets which vapicuno explains eloquently here: https://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/celebi/

the main difference between cm pass and cm 3 attacks is that cm pass can struggle with only two attacks — losing out on psychic really stings against like gengar, zapdos, and salamence. You need hp fire to force damage on skarm (unless you have mag) and metagross, and giga drain (while you can fake it) means your team struggle to handle waters long term in exchange for being a support Pokémon. Cm bp can be quite valuable to generate momentum for other special threats that struggle w blissey or other hard special walls like zapdos, raikou, jirachi, starmie, and offensive suicune. They might struggle to deal w bliss at +0, but w the boost from celebi, can break through special walls and destroy everything else. Hope this helps!
 
Bug Maniac Aydon said:
How viable is Whirlwind/Sleep Talk/---/--- Crobat?
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Not super viable, as if you want the 100% chance to phaze, you need to have your opponent put it to sleep. Also it sucks having a relatively useless Pokémon unless hazards are up and it is out to sleep. I suppose you could use rest sleep talk whirlwind roar and have a 2/3 chance to roll it? Crobat in general isn’t very good (I’ve personally had zero success using it) so I prob wouldn’t bother unless you have a very specific niche you need it for.
 
johnnyg2 said:
It really depends on the calm mind set. Cm 3 attacks celebi classically fits w more aggressive calm mind users, such as jirachi and suicune alongside other enablers for special offense such as gengar, zapdos, tyranitar, and especially Dugtrio. My own personal stance is that calm mind 3 attacks celebi also fits well on more balanced teams as a general back up water answer, pace pusher against other balanced teams, and cleaner. Partners I’ve used alongside it include aero (cm celebi typically forces damage on toxic skarmory, a prominent late game aero check), metagross, and dd or mixed tyranitar alongside other balanced mainstays like defensive metagross, blissey (good way that your special wall doesn’t get dugged), and starmie.
There are other cm sets which vapicuno explains eloquently here: https://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/celebi/

the main difference between cm pass and cm 3 attacks is that cm pass can struggle with only two attacks — losing out on psychic really stings against like gengar, zapdos, and salamence. You need hp fire to force damage on skarm (unless you have mag) and metagross, and giga drain (while you can fake it) means your team struggle to handle waters long term in exchange for being a support Pokémon. Cm bp can be quite valuable to generate momentum for other special threats that struggle w blissey or other hard special walls like zapdos, raikou, jirachi, starmie, and offensive suicune. They might struggle to deal w bliss at +0, but w the boost from celebi, can break through special walls and destroy everything else. Hope this helps!
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Thank you, that's pretty interesting
 
What would a team centered around finding openings and punishing mistakes look like in this tier?

In other metagames my favorite archetype is Hyper Offense and I'm not sure what team styles to play with.

Some of the ones in my head that stand out to me are, Sunny Day Charizard are Spike Stack.
 
KingOfTheZoogers said:
What would a team centered around finding openings and punishing mistakes look like in this tier?
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I don't understand your question. I'd think every team works this way; how else do you beat your opponent?

KingOfTheZoogers said:
In other metagames my favorite archetype is Hyper Offense and I'm not sure what team styles to play with.
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Traditionally the most defining archetype of ADV is TSS (standing for toxic, spikes, and sandstorm), a strategy involving wearing down the opponent's team with indirect damage before cleaning with a sweeper / stalling them out completely. More generally though, check out the sample teams thread in the link below. They are listed in roughly descending order of ease of use for beginners.

Sample teams thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-ou-sample-teams-and-team-dumps.3687813/
 
KingOfTheZoogers said:
What would a team centered around finding openings and punishing mistakes look like in this tier?

In other metagames my favorite archetype is Hyper Offense and I'm not sure what team styles to play with.

Some of the ones in my head that stand out to me are, Sunny Day Charizard are Spike Stack.
Click to expand...
Typically one of the best known beginner-friendly team uses SubPass Zapdos and Breloom which are great at creating their own openings and delivering big punishes.

For example, you face a lead Metagross, you can Sub with Zapdos as they switch out to a more favorable match-up. If their switch is say, Snorlax, you can then Baton Pass a Sub to the likes of Tyranitar or Breloom.

Whenever Breloom is on the field, you can also create your own opening by either clicking Spore which incapaciate a Pokemon, or predict a Sleep sack by doubling out/clicking Focus Punch.

A known 6 featuring these two is: Zapdos/Breloom/Tyranitar/Dugtrio/Suicune/Jirachi. You can look up their dex entreis to figure out the sets you'd rather run, but it's typically SubPass/Spore 3 Atk/Pursuit Tyranitar/CB Bulky Dug with Beat Up/Ice Beam Cune/SubCM Jirachi.
 
How important are entry hazards (i.e., Spikes) in the ADV metagame? In the Viability Rankings thread I've seen that :Skarmory:, the best Spikes setter, is A, as :Gengar:, the best Spin-Blocker. Therefore, should I assume that entry hazards are an integral part of the meta? Or is it possible to build a team completely ignoring them?

Thanks in advance!
 
why are mew latias and latios banned in gen 3?
mew has got the exact same stats as jirachi and celebi,neither of which are banned.

also latias and latios are pretty balanced without the soul dew item,why not just ban soul dew instead of banning these 2 pokemon?

I know that some years ago arceus got unbanned from gen 4 for one year and people had to vote about if they wanted him to stay unbanned or wanted him to go back at being banned,why can't we do the same with these 3?
 
Soiramio3000 said:
why are mew latias and latios banned in gen 3?
mew has got the exact same stats as jirachi and celebi,neither of which are banned.
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This answer won't be quite the same quality an answer as the savants would put it, but your Mew argument is a false equivalence.

Mew's stats come backed with one of the most expansive movepools in the franchise, allowing it to be hyperconsistent in any role it desires. Soft-Boiled, Thunder Wave, Swords Dance, Roar, this Pokemon gets everything. While not as potent as later (or prior!) generations given the time period, Mew is still incredibly ahead of its time in respect to ADV, which is a generation prior to when Dark was the premier offensive type, for instance. This unpredictability in a setting with more limited options is extremely strong, and the metagame would probably be worse off with Mew in it. I don't think it would rule the metagame unbanned, but there is an important distinction between "could" and "should". I could be lowballing this.

Stats are very much a surface-level look into whether something is balanced. Slaking has titanic stats that make some legendary Pokemon whimper, but it's balanced because of everything else going wrong for it. Same thing goes for Jirachi and Celebi here: what matters is what happens in practice.
 
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Because they would probably be way too strong even without soul dew. I say probably because I have admittedly never played with them in OU before, but their stats and typings would make them, at the very least incredibly centralizing. Latios is just bonkers, it's dragon claw is near unresisted and simply running Tbolt lets it hit everything in OU except steelix for heavy damage. Throw some spikes down for metagross and jirachi, plus it having recover and spikes immunity, it can easily outlast it's checks and clean up late game. It's like salamence only notched up a lot. Don't even get me started on dug support. Oh, and unlike mence, it isn't tied with like 8 other mons, it's just faster than all the other base 100s.

Latias meanwhile, is a monster with calm mind/refresh/recover/Dclaw. Outside of hp:bug or ghost, it's only weaknesses are special, and after a CM, it will easily shrug off unboosted ice beams and crunches. Hope you want to run haze milotic or a bunch of exploders on every team. Oh and it's faster than most of the physical attackers that can actually KO it so as soon as spikes/sandstorm put them into +1 Dclaw range they're useless.

In a generation where (physical) ghost and bug pokemon/moves are basically nonexistant, dark and dragon moves are rare and special, and all ice moves are unstabbed (regice is not a real pokemon), and a generation where the overall power level is way down (the gap in power level between gen3 and gen4 are the greatest of any gen easily), Latios and Latios have some of, if not the best, stat spreads, movepools, and typings of their peers without any relevant weaknesses holding them back (like how tar is ground weak, not levitating, 4x fighting weak, etc).
 
spookysocialist said:
Latios is just bonkers, it's dragon claw is near unresisted and simply running Tbolt lets it hit everything in OU except steelix for heavy damage.
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what about blissey or most calm mind users?they can easily take those attacks.

spookysocialist said:
Latias meanwhile, is a monster with calm mind/refresh/recover/Dclaw. Outside of hp:bug or ghost, it's only weaknesses are special and after a CM, it will easily shrug off unboosted ice beams and crunches.
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it doesn't sound much scarier than a calm mind suicune.if anything it is less scary since calm mind does not give it physical protection.

spookysocialist said:
Oh and it's faster than most of the physical attackers that can actually KO it
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that's not necerily a game breaking thing,there are pokemon that can run speed boosting moves and outrun it and pokemon that can slow it down with paralysis.
the would be some changes to the metagame,but I don't think that the game would break much.

spookysocialist said:
In a generation where (physical) ghost and bug pokemon/moves are basically nonexistant, dark and dragon moves are rare and special, and all ice moves are unstabbed (regice is not a real pokemon), and a generation where the overall power level is way down (the gap in power level between gen3 and gen4 are the greatest of any gen easily), Latios and Latios have some of, if not the best, stat spreads, movepools, and typings of their peers without any relevant weaknesses holding them back (like how tar is ground weak, not levitating, 4x fighting weak, etc).
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I am pretty sure that the metagame would adapt in order to deal with them.

I read on smogon that blissey and metagross already counter both of them in ubers where they are both allowed to use soul dew,if we ban soul dew it will be easier.

vaporeon can theoretically work too
I did the math and I found out that a vaporeon with 16HP,240 sp.atk and 252 sp.def with calm nature which holds nevermeltice can 2hitko both of them and survive 2 thunderbolts(my calculations were based on the fact that in ubers they only boost special attack and speed EVs,also I did not add sandstorm in my calculations.)
 
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