Lower Tiers ADV LC Thunder Wave Suspect Test - Discussion Thread

[grape tylenol]

approved by vapicuno
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As previously announced, the ADV LC council has decided to suspect test Thunder Wave. This might seem like a strange choice for a suspect test, but any ADV LC player can tell you how devastating paralysis is in this metagame. If you are unfamiliar with Generation 3 mechanics, Thunder Wave has 100% accuracy and hits a lot of targets that would be immune in future generations, such as Electric-type Pokemon and Pokemon with the ability Volt Absorb. Thunder Wave also has excellent distribution among top tier Pokemon in ADV LC, learned by bulky Pokemon like Porygon and Snubull as well as fast Pokemon like Elekid, Voltorb, and Staryu. A paralyzed Pokemon in ADV LC is debilitated: it is immediately outsped by everything else in the tier, and is setup fodder as an opposing Pokemon holding a Sitrus Berry can fish for a full paralysis using Substitute up to 7 times. A full paralysis's impact on a game is amplified by the short length of ADV LC games, as a typical game is about 25 turns. For these reasons Thunder Wave has been controversial in the tier for a while now and many have been calling for a suspect test or outright ban, as shown in the May 2024 metagame survey:

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The ADV LC council agrees that Thunder Wave is a controversial element of the metagame and as such is running a suspect test. The ADV LC council decided that players who have achieved at least one of the following are qualified to vote in the suspect test:

• 2 wins and at least 3 ADV LC games played in ADVPL IV
• Placed top 4 of ADV LC Open: Porygon's Bizarre Adventure
• Placed first in ADV LC Cup

Qualified Voters

Quinn (ADVPL IV)
HSOWA (ADVPL IV)
reggg (ADVPL IV)
tko (ADVPL IV)
Éric (ADVPL IV, ADV LC Cup)
ElectricityCat (ADVPL IV)
Hacker (ADVPL IV)
Raichy (ADV LC Open)
Elfuseon (ADV LC Open)
naere (ADV LC Open)
false (ADV LC Open)

This thread will be open for about 1 week for discussion about whether or not Thunder Wave should be banned. I highly encourage anyone who plays ADV LC and has an opinion on Thunder Wave to make a post in this thread regardless of whether or not they are qualified to vote. Because this is a controversial move tiering wise and there are players on both sides of the argument, it is important to discuss Thunder Wave so voters can see both sides of the argument. In addition, since this is an unprecedented ban as far as I am aware, it is important to have the discussion readily available for historical purposes. After that, a suspect vote will be posted in the Blind Voting forum for the qualified voters and will remain open for 1 week or until the vote is decided, whichever comes first*.
*The result of the vote may be slightly delayed in order to avoid conflict with the ongoing LC Classic Playoffs.

 

[boo836]

as a shameless Status spammer back during the beginnings of the first ADV LC revival (so 10 years ago lol), this is our chance to make ADV LC a certifiably Based Metagame. I don't play anymore, but I'm glad to see that public opinion is finally embracing the idea that Paralysis spam is incredibly unhealthy and impactful. Back in my day, cheesing with Swagger (and sometimes Para, though at the time I preferred HP Ice) Substitute Magnemite (SWAGNEMITE STRONK) was a really easy to statistically game the odds for wins against much more skilled players like Levi and Infamy. Being able to hit a switch with turn disruption (Swagger then, Para moreso now), then Sub down until you get a free turn or two without damage is devastating already in lower gens even when we don't factor item-based healing to full enabling at least another 3-4 extra opportunities.

THANK YOU GRAPE ASHLEY

 

[reggg]

Thunder Wave's impact on the tier is great enough to warrant a ban. I did not always believe this but after enough time my mind was changed. Because of the unique circumstances of gen 3 mechanics with electric types and volt absorb not stopping Thunder Wave, the extensive distribution of the move, and the prevalence of Sitrus Berry, I believe the move distinguishes itself enough in ADV LC that it should go. Discussion has been had on whether Sitrus Berry or Substitute should be banned instead, and I believe a DNB vote in pursuit of wanting these gone is a mistake. Sitrus and the way it works in this gen promotes good positioning, in-depth team building, and allows for more defensive counter play. Substitute also has good options outside of fishing for a full para, such as manipulating you own Sitrus or stopping Thief.

Thunder Wave in this meta has become too much to handle and takes away from player skill. In conjunction with Sitrus, it allows for a player to fish for a full paralysis up to 7 times with Subsitute, a even more if using Thief. The tier is also very fast paced, and features mons like Doduo, Anorith, Wailmer, Anorith, Snubbull and others, that can all severely punish a full para and completely change the swing of a game, often enough that I don'e believe the move should be kept. Here is a game from LPL where I immediatly win off a full para, Quinn vs tko, Eric vs HSOWA, and HSOWA vs tazz are all recent examples of games highlighting the problematic elements of Thunder Wave, and there are many others. As mentioned above, some people may believe Sitrus Berry or Substitute are the issues to be looked at, but I believe that the reason Thunder Wave should be banned is that is already a non competitive element of Pokemon. A 25% chance to lose a turn in a fast, hard hitting meta like this is just devastating and game defining, and takes away from the player when Thunder Wave is as common as it is and lacks the counter play of other generations.

In the builder, Thunder Wave is the most difficult thing to account for. Switching into Staryu, Snubbull, Chinchou or Voltorb is a nightmare when you have to consider that they can paralyze your Pokemon, and potentially leave you open to getting abused by Abra, Larvitar, Anorith, Cubone or Diglett. Without Thunder Wave, checking these threats become much easier and allows for healthier games that do not include being influenced over a full para that's out of your control.

The last point that I wanted to talk about is the concerns with banning Thunder Wave, because I do believe they exist. Namely, checking the faster threats in the tier by slowing them down with Thunder Wave no longer becomes an option. The two most relevant threats that I believe this to be the case for are Anorith and Abra. However, there are also other options like Icy Wind or Rock Tomb, example here and here where Icy Wind was able to win me the game, so I think a complete evaporation of speed control will not happen. There is also options like Body Slam or Thunder (lol) where they have a side effect of spreading Paralysis, but these are just objectively worse versions of Thunder Wave. They will still be available to use if people want to try them in the event that Thunder Wave is banned, but they will not be as impactful as it, which in my eyes is a good thing. Either way, the meta will be able to adapt and people will find ways to play without this move causing toxic interactions in this tier.

To sum up, I think much of the playerbase is frankly sick of the move and believe it to be a negative part of ADV LC that promotes poor gameplay and does not reward player skill. I think Sitrus Berry is a good part of the tier, but with the existence of Thunder Wave and Sitrus Berry creates an element that we should get rid of, and Thunder Wave is the part that should (rightfully) go. This is an amazing meta that I love and rewards creative building and smart positioning, but Thunder Wave has shown to be a element of the tier that is too strong in negatively influencing games, and we will have a better, more competitive metagame without it. Forgive any grammer or spelling mistakes or if I repeated myself too much its been a long day.

Vote Ban.

 

[Éric]

I am another example of someone who (at least personally) voted Thunder Wave as a 1 in the previously held poll but has changed his opinion after ADV PL and ADV Cup. This tier rewards full paralysis turns way too much, lots of times ending games straight up. As I said in my post, Sitrus + Sub + Thunder Wave cannot coexist in ADV LC if we really want a competitive metagame, and since Thunder Wave is what’s at stake rn, I’ll be voting ban.
I don’t have much else to add to reggg and mine’s post as to why the combination is too much.

 

[Colin]

I did not play ADVPL, but I advanced to top 8 in the ADV LC open. Paralysis spam back then was one of the premier strategies even back then, and it wasn't even properly optimized with Substitute sweepers such as Larvitar, Doduo, and Anorith less common. Abra frequently used Substitute to profit from Twave spam, but it was a lot less lethal (and also dependent) on it since many of its answers, such as Houndour, Porygon, and Diglett were capable of stopping most sets at +1 and would actually benefit from the Substitute chip. Modern adv sweepers are much more dangerous with Twave because they can either boost their attack faster or also their speed, and aren't as afraid of Diglett and priority when boosted. Our only Twave absorbers are either Staryu with Natural Cure (still can't take a KO if its team is battered), or Pokemon with Explosion that give only 1 turn to sub sweepers instead of 7 to fish. Ground Types lose to many Twave users such as Staryu and Porygon.

Paralysis takes the game out of players hands vs substitute breakers and sweepers, and is broken, so it should be banned.

 

[Zcarlett]

As it stands currently, T-Wave, especially with dedicated Paraspam teams has done a great job at removing agency from the players.

Currently, Paraspam can make playing games suffocating. With the plethora of T-Wave users in the tier, namely Snubbull, Staryu, Chinchou, Voltorb/Elekid, Porygon, and to a lesser extent Abra, means that even when facing something that is not dedicated paraspam, you'll usually have some kind of run-in with paralysis a common occurrence. Substitute fishing for a full para is an insidious presence within the tier, regardless of whether you're losing on the spot to something like Larvitar.

I wont say much more, as it has already been repeated several times by other people here, namely reggg and colin, but Substitute has other utility beyond forcing SubPara with mons like Chinchou, so I highly advocate voting ban on this.

 

[ElectricityCat]

Ugh, I'm really sorry for not being able to express my opinion about TW earlier. I've been very busy these days and completely forgot about this. My post won't be very good because I didn't have time to prepare it, but I still wanted to contribute at least a little bit.

I voted that Twave was very balanced in the tier, giving it a 1 in the survey that went from 1 to 5. I played a large number of matches in the Porygon Bizarre Adventure tournament, I also played ADV PL every week, and if that wasn't enough, I closely followed all of Raichy’s matches in the Porygon Bizarre Adventure as well (because I helped him with the preps). In ALL those matches, I never lost due to abuse of the Twave mechanic, nor did I see Raichy lose for the same reason, and I never felt that we abused it to win any match.

Honestly, I don't know if my building is robust enough to prevent opponents from relying on this strategy, or if simply no one tried to use it against me. Or worse, I don't know if I was just fortunate enough never to get paralyzed, and that's why I didn't notice it. But this makes me think there's no problem with Twave.

Even so, reading what everyone posted slightly changed my perspective, moving me from a "1" to a "3". I'm not very convinced; I would need to experience it myself, either by abusing Twave or being abused by it. Superficially, I noticed that most teams that struggle against Twave are very offensively built teams. They usually have at most one Pokémon for defensive pivoting. But I understand that my personal experience does not reflect that in general and in other circumstances, Twave is a move that harms the tier.

Anyway, I wanted to share this small piece of personal experience. I feel that Twave fulfills its role of providing good speed control and neutralizing very fast threats in a tier where almost everything takes an OHKO. At the moment, I'm not afraid of it, and as I said, I played and closely followed many matches, and it never caused me any concern.

My vote isn't decided yet, but I think it would lean more towards a no ban. However, I feel like everyone is terrified of the yellow button. It will probably end up banned from the tier.

 

[grape tylenol]

To ensure everyone gets a chance to weigh in on this suspect, I've decided to extend the deadline for this thread to Sunday June 23rd, 2024 at 10:00PM GMT-4.

my personal opinion

my thoughts are summed up pretty well in the original post - i do have some fear that by banning thunder wave a valuable speed control option is lost, but i believe the negative effect thunder wave has on how competitive games are as well as how enjoyable games are far outweighs its value as a speed control option.

ultimately, i want to cultivate a competitive and enjoyable metagame for people to enjoy. thunder wave, like many other banned elements before it (sleep, swagger, accuracy dropping moves, and deepseatooth all come to mind) has reached a point where its negative effect on these elements cannot be ignored and therefore should be banned.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

I've been a pretty early advocate for a Thunder Wave ban to the point where I've been using Safeguard SEEL (great strategy I promise) as active counterplay for subparafishing teams from that first LPL that had ADV LC. it's a tough ban to sell — we don't really have a paralysis clause or similar to keep yellow magic limited like we did sleep which we found initially broken enough to ban. Thunder Wave is in a sense, vital to the tier because it's one of the only forms of speed control and reliable ways to stop setup. What makes it particularly frustrating is the way Subsitute/Paralysis/Thief interact alongside the defensive parts of the tier being held up by Sitrus Berry. Sitrus healing you to full means subspamming is a valid tactic, but Thunder Wave's effects are exaggerated by being able to heal up with a potential no damage card enabling crucial turns of progress., which all have all been outlined prior so I won't go over it much.


My piece is that I personally advocate for a ban, but I also sit near the fence of thinking there's potentially a lot of ramifications from a ban. For starters, the entire meta we've built up to now changes completely: setup is more powerful and while you don't get free turns to setup as easily, you can't control a +2 speed mon snowballing its way through your team. Weather sweepers like Horsea get stronger as well. While I'd vote ban if I had rights (sob), I'm really hesitant on how it affecting the tier's balance and potentially getting undone anyway as a bad error of judgement on our part.

My controversial proposal is to then test sleep back into the tier upon the banning of Thunder Wave. I've brought this up in the discord as well and it's not popular, but to give a quick summary of why sleep is fairer without easy paralysis let me start. Sleep's limited to low accuracy moves in Hypnosis/Sing/Sleep Powder, all of which have very limited distribution in the tier. Sleep Clause exists as well, unlike a Paralysis Clause (unlikely to ever exist) which means you can ideally have a form of status control that works similarly to Thunder Wave but way less free abuse. Having a dedicated sleep absorber is also more plausible due to Sleep Talk, something paralysis has no equivalent to. I think the potential sleep no twave meta is a lot closer to what we have now but in a much more controlled fashion and worth exploring in the downtime before the next big tour to include ADV LC.


I also can't think of another instance where Thunder Wave's been banned in any other tier so we'd honestly better have given this some thought before whatever decision we make, because I'd rather not see the progress this tier has made in gaining legitimacy in tour play become undone from short-sighted voting. I think for the most part the tier is still playable and enjoyable even with the burgeoning cheap hax strat of subparafishing and setup, but I wouldn't miss it — even if I'm still partially inclined to think it just might be a necessary evil for the tier.

tl;dr para sucks but do we feel confident on banning it? also free sleep if we ban it

 

[grape tylenol]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to weigh in - the voting thread is now open for those who qualify!

My controversial proposal is to then test sleep back into the tier upon the banning of Thunder Wave.

Before the thread closes I did want to take the time to address this proposal. You mention that it's unpopular with members of the ADV LC Discord and I believe that's for good reason, even in a metagame without Thunder Wave, all the reasons sleep was originally banned still apply. I would recommend you revisit the original sleep ban post to read up on why it was banned in the first place and if you want to propose this again focus on the concerns from the original ban rather than dismissing them.

 

[Quinn]

I made video about twave :

I think this is not my best video but still upload it anyways. my thought about twave is that we currently don't use enough counterplay for it and play the wrong sequences ( my first part is about that). The last 6 minutes I talk about that I think the real problem sitrus berry. That its a issue even without thunderwave and that i would have liked to see a sitrus ban vote first instead of a thunder wave. And if the community want sitrus berry we can look into option such as thunderwave ban. Banning a move like twave is a huge decision and should be a last resort and not the first route i would personally go.