regirock has a few things that can set it aside from ttar, first is that its a second rock type not effected by species clause like a second ttar would be, so this means you can use it with ttar to break through rock resists on eachothers behalfs.Could you elaborate on that?
No doubt RegiRock has great stats, but isn't it universally considered to be outclassed by TTar
I ranked the Pokemon I thought were worth using. Some Pokemon were left out intentionally, some were oversights.s
mix/4a/pursuit great, consistent.
offense, defense, fits on every team. even rain.
ddtar frustrating but can potentially take over games like little else.
underrated sets: subpunch (fblast grass / thunder crunch), 4a phys with grass > bug, mixed @ black belt, protect/roar/counter on pursuit sets, cb. also dd with spikes.
notes: pursuit tar has beautiful overlapping synergy with blissey since it catches gar. can allow for non-ib bliss sets.
best pure offense, immense defense. fits any team like ttar.
underrated sets: jolly protect 3a (dug bulk), cb on a team that doesn't require it to boom asap (probs brick break for potential mag), various mixed (especially pursuit) shit.
notes: really likes spikes so you actually chunk swampert respectably.
double pursuit with ttar is nasty for enabling shit lategame.
crucial as ever, pillar on offense/defense alike. that said, it is nice to explore synergistic combos that allow you to forego it since those make for some really good teams, but at the end of the day, it is pert and it will facilitate the most stuff (letting you pile on more offensively-focused shit like zard and loom bc you can always fall back on this 1 pokemon against a ton of shit).
underrated sets: offensive with quiet instead of rash, living zap/mence/tar hpgrass is really big and extra bulk for phys hits is nice. both roar and eq + ice beam combo should be used more on bulky sets, separately or together!
notes: standard pert + bold mie have some great overlapping synergy (mie taking metagross).
little more exploitable with influx of bpzap + fighter, but still unmatched in what it does.
offense with lax + bliss emerged seemingly overnight, interesting. worth exploring for sure (especially with cblax)
underrated sets: sing (sleep is an immense weapon against milodol shit, generally won't spam against offensive stuff but can still be nice if the alternative is stossing a lefties metagross without spikes up or something), twave + stuff that really abuses it (not just as a filler move) like a fighter, snatch. 3 attacks (toss/beam/fire blast or thunderbolt) is also worthwhile).
notes: wishbliss + yama is beautiful.
wisp keeps teambuilding honest.
more than just spikes abuser - amazing special offense facilitator.
ban hypnosis (but only use on offensive sets on spikes teams, and on hella free turns or if there truly is no other choice).
underrated sets: dbond stuff as a support capability for cm/special offense on non-pursuit tar targets, cause pursuit tar barely checks shit, so if you can nab that w say dug and then dbond something else relevant it's a 2-for-1 your sweeper will really abuse. exception would be something like rain dance, but even then, if you can nab the tar, dug it, then dbond w gar, that's 1 less poke your rain dancer (or cm threat) has to ko to win.
notes: pair with good anti-swampert, weirdly. grass is hard to fit and pert winds up being a makeshift check. not a good one ofc, which is why you gotta make sure it can't get mileage against you on those turns you are forced to switch out. gar + bulky variant of cele/starmie is nice.
willowisp sets NEED thunderbolt, being unable to beat molt/zard 1v1 is unacceptable (other shit can be wisped).
if you use ground pivot to guard blissey from immediate dug bp...you get punished by sub.
sdef rest underrated for sitting on bulk!
offense defense utility etc.
bp brings in (threat) reliably.
underrated sets: protect is definitely gamebreaking. agility on cm pass is brutal as ever. mixed stuff. tbolt + thunder.
offensive with max hp + some defense so you 1) can stay in on ttar if need be 2) can survive +1 mence. gamebreaking potentially.
bold has some decent applications.
notes: some way to make up for lack of passive healing (wish/leech seed) goes a Long way in helping it shrug off mixmence or whatever, staying out of range of gengar/starmie ice and such.
becomes absolutely absurd with spikes - digging into bliss/cele/jira/lax/tar, ensuring pert is in grass range...
adapt set and be rewarded.
psuedo-checks everything, spikes make good things even better.
underrated sets: non-yolo fast. surprisingly, classic protox (w anti-forre support).
notes: be cognizant of all 3 spinners, get it in early (lategame skarm w/o a clear winpath in sight sucks), surround w proactive offensive options to really make use of the spikes
leech requires fast backup/finisher teammate as well as ways to accentuate the damage, but amazing nonetheless.
cm great, 3a/bp/leech alike.
resist to fight/water/electric all so good against common offense.
dry bp stacking alongside zap is amazing.
underrated sets: super (on cm spam and otherwise), leech + bp with an attacking move or 2, leech recover fire + psy/giga.
notes: becomes an absolute devil without spikes. excellent alongside yama too.
remove wall. check threat sometimes. adamant good because not killing tar/meta can be very dumb. beat up good.
underrated sets: 0 speed dug. living modest bliss with a layer of spikes changes the entire game. be conscientious of faster targets teamwise obviously (offensive cmers mainly) but it's as gamechanging as it gets so the upside is worth it. 275 speed is still good.
notes: spikes help finish grounded stuff off.
amazing blend of offense/defense (fight res, intimidate).
mixed is ridic to switch into for so much.
cb requires mag but is similarly brutal.
underrated sets: rock slide mixed, attack-invested mixed, roar mixed, wish mixed.
notes: spikes push a LOT into ko/2hko range (pert, meta, tar, bliss). pairs beautifully with meta/wishbliss (latter esp good to reinforce against fighting influx) as always.
offense/defense once again.
superachi is relentless in the right spots.
underrated sets: wishcm is threatening af. classic wishtect can be ridiculous in slowing down offense - it can be annoyed by its vulnerability to both trappers (magneton just twaving it is awful), but it can also just take over a game. more "offensive" (but still largely defensive) wish sets (hpfight, thunder) are great, too. mixed variants (endless possibilities).
notes: sometimes hard to fit in teambuilding bc unlike the same-typed meta, it doesn't check ttar. however if this is made up for it makes for some really great combinations (e.g. amazing alongside yama). good rain facilitator.
potentially immensely threatening but hates sand SO much - offensive sets almost can't switch into anything at all bc they become so much worse when switching into something as innocuous as swampert ice beam. however, if it gets going, it's ludicrously dangerous. like ddtar in that sense. just hard to facilitate teamwise. can be worth it but tough to make consistent.
underrated sets: vincune with sand clearing.
notes: needs physical backup. i.e., on offensive cune, not paired with a bunch of physically frail spatkers and then expecting cune to actually stave off mence and co since you need it to be a threat. on defensive cune, can take hits nicely but needs support against rock slides and spikes (and ddmence bc ib boldcune sucks). to that end, dual water can be good (preferably on offense bc on defense you'll just wind up with some ultra-passive kinda-fishy nonsense). claydol is a good partner on both kinds of teams. wish support can be nice too. nice for rain teams in general.
offensive = special aero.
bold good too.
both sets generally infuriating for offense.
underrated sets: 4th move > spin on offensive. modest.
notes: bold needs team support for to not suck against opposing defense, but is excellent on the right teams, has some great defensive overlap and facilitates some dangerous offensive pokes w twave.
death to frail offense/everything.
underrated sets: adamant on 1/100 teams (that are rock-solid against mie, endpert, ddtar). power makes a huge difference.
notes: likes spikes obv, but made so much more dangerous if it isn't the only source of true offense besides spikes.
enables some nice offensive teams. not really sold about hyper-fat dols, but as long as it has explosion it'll be fine. still think adamant fast is great.
underrated sets: if paired with pursuit, rock slide can be nice (zap mainly).
notes: pairs crazy well with offensive metagross stuff, lets you be more cavalier with booms while still maintaining the rock res elsewhere.
blah blah mixed attackers blah blah longevity blah blah needs anti-spikes
underrated sets: offensive on spikes teams!
notes: much better with a supporting cast filled with good all-around pokes (i.e. more metagross/mence/zapdos/spikes and such, less "hope my milo sweeps" magdol type shit). also means it taking an explosion from meta isn't as devastating.
blah blah metagross switch blah blah wisp ridiculous to switch into blah blah needs spikes
sunny day stuff has a small niche and the teams it fits on are pretty good, but it should be clearing for suicune, not awful curselax.
underrated sets: toxic can force blissey out and more havoc can be wreaked. it also owns other molt trying to absorb wisp. protect can be really brutal too. as always, overheat is amazing. finally, hp fight might be occasionally worthwhile a la mixzap (100 attack...)
notes: molt + lots of good anti-lax physical backbone (meta, wispgar) means you can potentially run a strong spikes team without sand. careful around suicune and you'll be good to go.
molt + dug is harder to fit, but underrated. gives you a nasty tool to potentially ruin cheesy magdols.
molt + aero is also really nasty, as molt weakens things really well and aero cleans em up. aero also gives helpful backup against irritating supercele + rachi duos (since overheat molt can only check one).
molt + mence is great on both sides.
electric neutrality + boom + spin are some nice attributes. think the last move can only be eq (meta, tar, mag) and needs pursuit tar support, but that's fine. don't think counter/hpbug can make the cut.
underrated sets: none / I guess you could feasibly run some offensive stuff with dol/starmie that would free up spin from forry, but I don't think giving up on the best option to spin against skarm is worth it, especially since its other moves aren't that great.
notes: wants multiple fast, strong partners - you can still have a backbone (bliss) but generally should be loading up on 2 of things like mence/aero/molt, especially since your ttar is relegated to pursuit. forry should basically be cloyster with more longevity; an overtly defensive team with it is gonna falter against offense thanks to forry's super abusable quad fire weak and lack of phazing.
blah blah skarm removal
required for cbmence, makes metagross sooo much better.
popular sets are either timid with enough hp for jolly ground skarm or so bulky (240 hp/80 def) they live forry eq.
all sets should have hp fire, forry's too important a target. you'll never land a grass on pert anyway.
underrated sets: hard to call any of them "underrated" but fast sub twave generally finds a lot of utility against offense as well, especially in conjunction with leech bp cele. I still like magnet. charcoal probably has some use to really stick it to forry.
notes: mag physical offense is the worst thing ever, but mag balance/spikes is great.
excellent alongside pursuit tar and/or dug (although the latter is harder to fit on teams).
224 hp 92 def lives forry eq and saves 4 evs (compared to 240/80).
sleep strong, fighting strong.
requires pursuit, but that's fine, esp since it pairs with mach to remove dug.
also nigh-requires JOLLY! feels like sacrilege but the speed tier's so important. UD tar is the absolute biggest target - being adamant against an unknown tar forces you into throwing out flimsy mach punches so you don't get outsped and beamed to death. it's not better 100% of the time depending on your team - the power of adamant is amazing of course, you might try to deal with tar via metagross and bring loom in later against guaranteed slower non-lum pokes - but it certainly should be the primary option most of the time. it has so many other great targets, too, allowing you to get reliably spore off in a ton of situations: cloyster, magneton, endpert, bulky jirachi/celebi/zapdos, vaporeon, medicham, adamant gyara, kingdra, ludicolo, weezing, lots of offensive suicunes (and if they outspeed you, which you can see from sand, they have 0 bulk), tie at worst with jolly meta/skarm (and be a lot more confident in straight outrunning them most of the time).
underrated sets: stun spore!!! hpbug can also be good (cele, but also dol and bulky mie).
notes: offense teams with loom are nice in theory, but suffer from the same problems that make them inconsistent (generally incapable on both offense and defense). loom on spikes teams is where it's at. spikes don't really help loom itself that much, since its checks are flying, but being surrounded by the better backbone is incredible for its consistency, and those teams LOVE the reliable sleep. its big hits are also great in further advancing the game for them to lock it down more easily at the end.
big hits, big hp (bliss toss).
backup checks lots of stuff.
underrated sets: continued mixing and matching of options of the offensive sets. knock shouldn't be dropped most of the time though unless on a super offensive team.
notes: absolutely adores wish support, mence/jira/bliss alike. bulk evs go a long way, speed for bliss only worth it on super offensive teams as well. (by this rationale, those fast sets and sets without knock are probably one and the same.)
a la molt, minus power, plus speed, fight moves and blaze.
underrated sets: toxic in the 4th slot (bliss, mence, molt).
notes: wants spikes so badly, not being able to seal the deal on pert is painful. conveniently, just like with loom, offense teams with it are less reliable as a whole, so put zard on a more balanced spikes team with a real backbone for the best of both worlds. (lets you make the most out of toxic too!!!) +spa goes a long way as well.
struggles against bulkier stuff, but still the face of a solid playstyle - just requires more cognizance of matchups.
hp grass should be the standard, that goes a long way in making it more threatening.
underrated sets: roar is forgotten and can make it threatening even against bulky bliss/mie stuff.
notes: good alongside dbond gar to ruin claydol (which something like non-bug ddtar, who also loves spikes, appreciates as well). a sleep user (loom/venu) might go a long way in helping jolt overcome some hurdles as well.
weird/not great defensive profile, but dishes out major smackaroonis.
dug weakness can be turned into a positive.
early game sub sd focus is so nasty, pairs well with vap and zap.
major problem: offensive teams with it are often woefully inept defensively (spatkers + spikes usually), thus requiring a lot of tough (and often blind) turns to go right. more balanced teams w hera can help with this issue a lot.
underrated sets: sleep talk lefties. protox lefties. cb. 3 attack sd lefties because having brick break is surprisingly helpful (lax, bliss, magneton).
notes: adamant always (and keep max atk even on bulkier sets except for maybe protox). bulk goes a real long way on it.
blah blah offensive teams blah blah not mag weak blah blah explosion
snorlax-tier longevity (aka bad) so needs to pick its spots well for maximum value (double into pert, don't switch into a hydro pump).
uptick of bulky starmie hurts it, but nothing that can't be played around w team support.
underrated sets: think max speed should be the new standard a la loom, too many big targets.
notes: even these offensive sets should usually fit spin. huge upside, and other moves are not really that much better. if you do ditch spin (i.e. with claydol as a partner, which is awesome), hp grass is a great choice, catching cheeky focus pert. always use surf as the stab, mono-ice beam is bad against tar/forry.
underrated as hell, that defensive profile remains fantastic.
its offenses need support (mag, suit tar) of course and it doesn't fit on too many teams as a result, but it can potentially put in a ton of work.
underrated sets: offensive protect 3a. defensive can fit dragonbreath for some nice para support. hell, maybe even sub 3a can fit it over sub.
notes: if there's extra speed on the team for the cmers, adamant is sooooo much stronger on offensive sets. adamant can even be used on the defensive sets.
defensive sets suck, but offensive sets are massively threatening and are great supporters to boot.
variety in those offensive sets too, with roar, bulk vs. spa/speed, timid vs. modest.
doesn't have to be a lead - great midgame poke too, especially on cm passing stuff (like a suicune that can keep the pass going).
underrated sets: petaya if used on a cm passing team. hydro/ib/roar/bp + spikes seems great too.
notes: preferable if teams with lead vap don't risk running out of steam if everything doesn't go right in the first few turns; sometimes that'll be inevitable, but not always.
strong. best on balance that can switch around a lot.
underrated sets: recover on lefties. cb.
notes: zap isn't seen much on such balance teams (bliss meta mie), but could be a welcome addition to help medi get on the field more
far too many roadblocks to ever sweep reliably, but good utility (twave, resists, intim) can make up for lack of offensive threat.
dd double edge is quite threatening if played well. however, that's more for teams that don't rely on gyara's defensive qualities as much.
for teams that do rely on gyara more (switching into fighters), since dd is nigh-useless, perhaps non-dd pure utility sets can be explored.
underrated sets: taunt + twave or even toxic?
notes: kinda awkward to fit sometimes, but definitely warrants exploration.
only good on these kinds of teams:
- mie bliss balance
- magdol offense
lax seriously sucks without enormous swathes of support, which it needs to not be the biggest liability in the tier against the most standard pokemon combinations/styles of team.
also, offensive sets only. restlax is an abomination.
underrated sets: cblax as a psuedo-cbgross to take out skarm/meta so you preserve your more useful metagross. however you'll often wind up booming ttar, so you gotta keep that in mind team-wise. (rain?!)
notes: eq is mandatory. losing to magneton/jirachi/special ttar 1-on-1 and being hardwalled by meta is incredibly stupid.
hard to fit and incredible setup bait for anything that can't be toxiced but is unmatched in its ability to cripple gengar and enable certain teams by allowing a different ttar set. meanpass is silly sometimes but gimmicky unreliable etc.
underrated sets: maybe fitting bp on wish sets.
notes: beware of spikes, calm minders and metagross.
fast saur best saur (outrunning offcune and everything below). causes immense havoc with sleep, leech and general bulk, setting up for an endgame clean beautifully, specifically aero. venu also blanks the toxic waters that might chase aero out initially. beautiful synergy.
underrated sets: roar / sbomb are great 4ths on skarmmag.
notes: really tough to not want mag support with this guy, given how flimsy hp fire can feel and how great the other options are.
decent lead, but best used when spikes are already up. this means you're already exerting pressure and thus it's a lot more worth taking a twave from zap. also means you can pick your spots against a water and aren't forced into those awkward "hit sleep against unknown tar/meta" scenarios.
a la medicham, lower speed/no leftovers suck but has actual defensive utility in a pinch (ttar/anything physical/zapdos). def worth fitting on (para-heavy) balance (meta bliss mie).
underrated sets: focus punch as the 4th move.
notes: same as medicham.
being so free for meta/spikes/sometimes tar sucks, but those can be handled with support, and can be worth it because p2 is absolutely infuriating for all kinds of offense while enabling lots of great pokes who are dug weak.
underrated sets: hp fire, hp fighting, dual status, thunder, 80 spdef to always take 2 starmie hydros in sand.
notes: a spinner really, really brings the best out in p2 (both mie/dol can fit).
lead sets are good and can fit on a variety of offenses. not entirely convinced about the cm variants but they have a place on cmspam, either early game to deny skarm spikes or lategame to act as a starmie of sorts (although cmkou's lack of coverage/inability to grab ohkos makes me prefer the former).
underrated sets: lead kou isn't beholden to lefties, magnet's power boost can be huge. petaya berry might be really cool as well.
notes: dug required. pairing with zapdos is really cool.
snorlax-esque downsides: low speed, sand (+ spikes), few actual resists, can't use all the moves it wants, lets in some nasty customers. however it does have nice upsides. tough to fit - only on special offense, and even then only certain kinds of it (unless you want to consider rain a seperate subset), but definitely has its place.
underrated sets: thunder > tbolt, the latter bounces off meta/tar anyway, so hit em hard or don't hit at all, and of course the para is terrific. actually scares skarm too, allowing your spatkers to actually finish it later.
hpfire really nice too. finally, might be worth going really fast on it, giving it the jump on bulky tar/meta/skarm/pert.
notes: denying early spikes is really, really helpful, so taunt dbond gar lead is a good partner. alternatively, zap, specifically sub to punish forre.
similarities to gar, but has a few notable differences: 1, can switch out of pursuit tar a lot more easily. 2, baits milotic. 3, isn't scared to death of medicham shadow ball. great movepool to mess with the opponent, though wisp and boom should never be ditched. solid poke.
underrated sets: taunt pain split for longevity vs fighters/being more annoying vs defense without needing to bomb (though it still can). attack-invested sludgebomb hpfighting for a different kind of offensive pressure.
notes: helps mixed/spikeless offense a lot, providing a third boom and a good lure to a lot of would-be irritating pokemon.
best rain dancer by far.
lum/mysticwater are nice, but I think lefties is really good, as it's a huge threat even in sand and it lets you make the most out of its terrific bulk.
evs to survive +2 mence hp flying so you can rain dance against a +1 mence.
0 speed is tempting but hitting 244 is useful so tar can't ruin your day.
underrated sets: besides hp grass, 4th slot can also be surf for accuracy or substitute for boom/status blocking.
notes: great as a standalone sweeper on sp offense, but can also go for a more synergistic weather-clearing approach (e.g. paired with rd subcune).
nice niche on physmag stuff, but also surprisingly infuriating as a wall on certain defensive teams - pack wishmence and be good against spikes and special attackers, and it's pretty nuts.
adamant should run 144 attack to always ohko bulkless dug.
underrated sets: offensive sets could run body slam > rock slide to threaten paralysis on its switchins.
notes: even physmag can use (offensive) wishmence alongside it, really nice to offset the inconvenience of 1 layer of spikes and more fully reinforce in the event of more (cloyster).
only on mag pursuit, but man, is it good with them.
has some underexplored defensive pairings too (wishjira/mence).
underrated sets: a little spdef goes a long way against ttar. last slot is open to a bunch of stuff: besides toxic, there's also hp rock/rock slide, roar, counter (even bounces back jirachi hp grass!).
notes: best to ensure phan's paired with good options mixed/special threats, aero and bliss of course being the best.
advantages over yama aren't just higher attack, but better speed and better bulk uninvested, allowing it to invest in that speed.
underrated sets: lefties with earthquake in the 4th slot to smack metagross while not needing a boost. alternatively, yama-esque set (focus punch in the 4th).
notes: blah blah doesn't take hits great in sand blah blah bp zap
tough to switch into for a lot, nice for good lead matchups and blasting zapdos in particular. hates the surge of bulky starmie more than anything else though.
underrated sets: overheat in the 4th slot @ charcoal to ensure you destroy zapdos as well as really chunking mence switches. choice band to bait and destroy milotic?
notes: probably not worth as a non-lead.
don't think it's worth it as a standalone rain dancer - lower spatk is significant when trying to muscle through pokes for a lategame clean, it's tougher to set up with lower physical bulk and weaknesses to bug/flying, and
realistically, stab hp grass isn't enough to meaningfully differentiate it from dra - it's still walled by milo. sure, eq resist and extra hit against mie / cune is nice, but I'd rather have the better overall sweeper. however, ludi's definitely nice alongside dra.
underrated sets: beyond rain dance, 3 attack leech seems pretty disruptive.
notes: rd prob likes/needs mystic water, really needs the push.
actually legit as hell with spikes. the speed, the sleep, the subseed, encore...amazing. bit hard to find a spot, but worth the effort.
underrated sets: maybe an attacking move over encore (hp grass? fire? ice? flying?)
notes: absolutely requires gengar pairing.
not sure about fitting defensive sets into a stall team, but the potential is definitely there.
ditto offensive sets, although it's a little less murky there.
underrated sets: non-curse offensive (twave)? protect?
notes: wants a spinner probably even on a more offensive team (so claydol for the extra boom)
brutal lategame cleaner a la starmie, but I don't think it should bother with cm - it wants all the ohko coverage it can muster, aka it needs ice punch. psy/fire/ice/grass. definitely has potential. amazing speed, and can very feasibly be modest.
underrated sets: in addition to the 4a, there's definitely potential for some sort of taunt knock recover set. just cover pursuit tar.
notes: natural place to put it is special offense, but it can definitely fit on some spikes stuff nicely.
might be the saving grace for mag offense.
underrated sets: probably hp rock.
notes: don't pair with sd celebi, the slot isn't worth it.
awful defensive typing - autodies to electric and grass and effectively to water as well, not to mention fighting and eq. initial speed isn't great too. however, the power is enormous. it also has some great utility moves to support the team. like ludi, it shouldn't be the sole rain dancer, but when paired with dra it can be nasty.
underrated sets: spikes and/or thief! maybe it doesn't even need rain dance and can just be an aggressive supporter, since its hydros/ib combination is already instantly threatening.
notes: can be really hard to find opportunities for. requires aggressive doubles against, like, certain tars, and a willingness to sac it against lax, neither of which is too fun/reliable.
I would say regirock is more comparable to metagross over ttar, its defense stat is so high it basically functions as a rock resist it threatens mons with quakeslide and the unique trait in superpower, which allows it to smack ttar, it works well as a back up check pretty much any physical attacker. It also has boom which gives it a niche regardless of these great traits. Regirock is a cool mon on physical offense teams i would definitely try outCould you elaborate on that?
No doubt RegiRock has great stats, but isn't it universally considered to be outclassed by TTar
Make a serious post on a specific thread(not this one, this is a vr thread), list the merits and cons of sleep being banned in a objective manner(without saying stuff like:"i hate it lol""it's clearly broken"etc.), and hope that people listen to the points that you've made, if you succeed in explaining your argument and many people agree with you eventually it will be brought up to people in charge.yes, that being the question, which remains outstanding - how does a topic get off the ground, whereby meriting serious discussion between those with the authority to underake tiering action? if banning sleep has not been given serious consideration, as appears to be the case, in what ways has the motion to ban sleep fallen short, and how might that be remidied? finally, no hard feelings. i love me a toyata prius as much as the next guy.
Pointing out to this discussion that you started as the main proof of the legitimacy of your argument is some bs that even the worst lawyers won't do.arguments for banning sleep in adv ou have been made many times by many people across smogon forums. given our limited understanding of the game as a whole, the standard for any tiering action, banning or unbanning, should never be to prove that a metagame element is competitive or not. personally, I don’t think i could substantively argue that sleep is uncompetitive any more than i, or anybody, could show that zapdos is better than metagross. instead, the facts are these, a sizeable consensus exists that sleep is uncompetitive in adv ou, something this very thread testifies to. the response of those in a position of power has been :messi: and the subject’s occasional discussion in a private discord server with no affiliation to smogon. people can make of that what they want, but, damn, lol…
Said side discord held an informal poll in February 2021 with the following resultsinstead, the facts are these, a sizeable consensus exists that sleep is uncompetitive in adv ou,