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Metagame AG Metagame Discussion [HOME Edition]

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Welcome to Scarlet and Violet Anything Goes, Home edition! This thread will be used for all things related to the new metagame - theorymonning, metagame observations, and set sharing are all encouraged!

Notable Returning Pokemon

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Notable New Pokemon

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Notable Missing Pokemon


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Notable Moveset Differences
Code:
- Mewtwo gained Dark Pulse, Earth Power, Power Gem
- Kyogre lost Block, Roar, Scald, Toxic
- Groudon gained Body Press, Spikes, Will-O-Wisp
  lost Dragon Tail, Heat Crash, Roar, Rock Polish, Toxic
- Rayquaza gained Stealth Rock, U-turn
  lost V-create
- Dialga gained Trick, Focus Blast
- Palkia gained Trick
  lost Focus Punch, Roar
- Giratina lost Poltergeist, Roar, Toxic
- Arceus gained Aura Sphere, Body Press, Bulk Up, Dragon Dance, Dragon Tail, Flare Blitz, Foul Play, Gunk Shot, Healing Wish, Power Gem, Stored Power, Taunt
  lost Defog, Frustration / Return, Shadow Force, Refresh, Roar, Whirlpool
- Landorus gained Crunch, Taunt, Nasty Plot
  lost Defog, Explosion, Gravity, Knock Off, Rock Polish, Toxic
- Magearna gained Psychic, Psyshock, Spikes
  lost Heal Bell
- Zacian gained Trailblaze, Poison Jab
  lost Assurance
- Eternatus gained Fire Blast, Fire Spin
  lost Meteor Beam, Mystical Fire
- Urshifu gained Swords Dance
- Regieleki lost Rising Voltage
- Calyrex lost Aromatherapy
 
Honestly looking at the mons not returning and moves I'd say this meta is going to be the most chaotic thing since oras, caly is gonna be everywhere and since no yve/ho oh the only thing you can possibly do to check it is most likely clod and ekillers taking advantage of when it teras. Also the only defoggers are gonna be corv and giratina who lost both Roar and toxic (good luck getting rid of any set up sweepers this time around) it's most likely gonna be ditto heaven again just turnt up a little more. At the end of the day I'm glad home is finally here and we get to truly enjoy ag no matter how broken it's gonna be.
 
Ting-Lu is definitely going to very prevalent as by far the best bulky hazard setter. Tera Ghost to prevent Rapid Spin paired with a solid counter to Miraidon and Caly.

Other notes I think HO is going to be fun to watch development with the lack of phazers and hazard removal
 
Not sure what to think yet. But Calyrex-S, Arceus, and Zacian are incredibly meta defining threats, and the meta will 100% revolve around them for some time. Zacian is just an incredible wallbreaker into anything besides Skeledirge, and Dirge itself has issues thanks to letting in every special attacker for free. This meta is going to be interesting for sure, and I'm still struggling to build anything short of HO
 
Skeledirge walls ekiller, koraidon, Zacian, can wisp and roar, and is a great physica wall. Caly is fuckin nuts, koraidon is also nuts (I’m loving scarf), Tera dark clod seems mandatory almost on balance. Also support arcs get dragon tail so there’s another phasing option. Basculegion is a lot of fun too; last respects is busted, and banded rain boosted wave crashes hit hard as hell. Also I think you can run miraidon with a lot of bulk to help check ogre, as etern seems more vulnerable in this format as opposed to gen 8

Spike stack HO seems like it’ll be really good, with every offensive mon getting taunt it seems like, and the only good rapid spinner I can see is great tusk, which gets outsped by pretty much every big offensive threat in the game.
 
Some initial notes on the metagame (bear in mind that I haven't really followed pre-HOME AG):

- Offense/HO is most likely going to be the dominant archetype, as I don't expect most teams to be able to handle all of Arceus/Calyrex-S/Kyogre/Miraidon/Arceus-Ground/Koraidon etc. effectively. That being said, the best priority option in E-killer will probably be insane. This means the metagame will probably involve heavy revenging to pick off individual offensive threats, akin to other metas where everything beats everything like ORAS Pure Hackmons. Also means that Trick Room has at least niche viability (and maybe hard stall if offensive threats are centralizing enough).
- Cyclizar HO seems pretty funny because you can go ham against opposing hazard leads for the most part. Orthworm also seems decent because it can stave off most E-killers in the short term and use Shed Tail if at or near full (+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Orthworm: 104-123 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 44.9% chance to 3HKO).
- Miraidon hits insanely hard but I don't find it that easy to run - Choice Specs/Scarf can only really hit Ting-Lu with Draco Meteor which is exploitable, and E-killer probably makes setup sets' lives hard.
- My (uninformed) opinion is that Koraidon is easier to run and probably on par with if not better than Miraidon overall, even if it has lower damage potential before Tera. This is due to the aggregate effects of a bunch of little things (sturdier Water Spout switch-in, stronger U-turn, Scarf Close Combat OHKOing Arceus, a good non-STAB option in Flare Blitz, Protosynthesis mons probably being better than Quark Drive ones overall, etc.)
- Calyrex-S is dumb as hell but probably not as stupid as people expect it to be, simply because Tera usage makes it vulnerable to Arceus' Extreme Speed if it's low enough. Draining Kiss seems worse this gen but I've seen it work to some success. I can see Grass Knot sets to snipe Ting-Lu without burning Tera as well (LO is an 87.5% to OHKO at +2).
- Ting-Lu is pretty damn good due to soft checking Calyrex-S/Miraidon while setting hazards, using Whirlwind, etc. in a metagame where the only Defoggers are Giratina and Corviknight. Likewise, Toxic Spikes Eternatus seems pretty good since opposing Eternatus (and Poisonceus/Toxapex I guess) are the only innate removal options. Don't be like me running Sneasler HAHAHA
- Rapid Spin users like Great Tusk seem interesting too but I haven't seen them being used much.

Can't say on anything else atm
 
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Some initial notes on the metagame (bear in mind that I haven't really followed pre-HOME AG):

- Offense/HO is most likely going to be the dominant archetype, as I don't expect most teams to be able to handle all of Arceus/Calyrex-S/Kyogre/Miraidon/Arceus-Ground/Koraidon etc. effectively. That being said, the best priority option in E-killer will probably be insane. This means the metagame will probably involve heavy revenging to pick off individual offensive threats, akin to other metas where everything beats everything like ORAS Pure Hackmons. Also means that Trick Room has at least niche viability (and maybe hard stall if offensive threats are centralizing enough).
- Cyclizar HO seems pretty funny because you can go ham against opposing hazard leads for the most part. Orthworm also seems decent because it can stave off most E-killers in the short term and use Shed Tail if at or near full (+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Orthworm: 104-123 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 44.9% chance to 3HKO).
- Miraidon hits insanely hard but I don't find it that easy to run - Choice Specs/Scarf can only really hit Ting-Lu with Draco Meteor which is exploitable, and E-killer probably makes setup sets' lives hard.
- My (uninformed) opinion is that Koraidon is easier to run and probably on par with if not better than Miraidon overall, even if it has lower damage potential before Tera. This is due to the aggregate effects of a bunch of little things (sturdier Water Spout switch-in, stronger U-turn, Scarf Close Combat OHKOing Arceus, a good non-STAB option in Flare Blitz, Protosynthesis mons probably being better than Quark Drive ones overall, etc.)
- Calyrex-S is dumb as hell but probably not as stupid as people expect it to be, simply because Tera usage makes it vulnerable to Arceus' Extreme Speed if it's low enough. Draining Kiss seems worse this gen but I've seen it work to some success. I can see Grass Knot sets to snipe Ting-Lu without burning Tera as well (LO is an 87.5% to OHKO at +2).
- Ting-Lu is pretty damn good due to soft checking Calyrex-S/Miraidon while setting hazards, using Whirlwind, etc. in a metagame where the only Defoggers are Giratina and Corviknight. Likewise, Toxic Spikes Eternatus seems pretty good since opposing Eternatus (and Poisonceus/Toxapex I guess) are the only innate removal options. Don't be like me running Sneasler HAHAHA
- Rapid Spin users like Great Tusk seem interesting too but I haven't seen them being used much.

Can't say on anything else atm
Draining kiss is surprisingly potent on Caly-S due to the pseudo-technician boost that Tera provides; dkiss becomes a 60 base power move after Tera fairy
 
Let's address the two elephants in the room. . .

:sv/calyrex-shadow:
Calyrex-S is shaping up to be the one of the best Pokemon in the metagame, but it feels much more manageable this time around. It needs Tera Fighting with Tera Blast to overcome Arceus reliably. This means that with one wrong prediction, you simply open yourself up to Extreme Speed instead, especially against offensive structures with multiple Extreme Killers. Ting-Lu is shaping up as one of balance's most useful staples, and does a fine job at being a secondary soft-check to Calyrex-S as well. You also have Tera Dark Clodsire, which stonewalls every set bar Nasty Plot Tera Fighting (Unaware blanks every set, but is worse than Water Absorb). Arceus-Dark is a fraud, though! Don't use it unless you want to lose to entry hazards before even getting the opportunity to check Calyrex-S.

Calyrex-S can also simply throw caution to the wind and run a Life Orb Nasty Plot set with Astral Barrage, Psychic, and Grass Knot, which is especially dangerous on hyper offense with Taunt leads to block entry hazards. This set has a much easier time deleting both Arceus and Ting-Lu and doesn't even need Tera. However, such a set comes at a large cost: it can't run Heavy-Duty Boots, and is therefore worn down rapidly / needs solid entry hazard removal (which to be frank doesn't really exist). This means that it's limited to hyper offense, and thus pretty predictable. I think the best set right now is Nasty Plot + Heavy-Duty Boots with Grass Knot and Psychic alongside Tera Psychic, Grass, or simply Ghost. This set has the longevity to stick around and can break through checks with minimal chip damage, easily acquired through entry hazards. I could also see Baton Pass instead of Psychic being good, but haven't seen it at all so far.

:sv/ting-lu::sv/eternatus:
Entry hazards are the real broken element in the metagame and Ting-Lu is at the forefront of this, easily stacking multiple layers with its gargantuan bulk. Convenient removal is limited to Giratina, Great Tusk, and Corviknight, and while all of these do a fine job at limiting Ting-Lu itself, both Giratina and Corviknight get Pressure stalled by Ting-Lu's partner in crime Eternatus, whereas Great Tusk gets spinblocked by Giratina and has to second-guess clicking Rapid Spin against Calyrex-S.

This has three implications:
  1. Heavy-Duty Boots is a good (if not the best) item on anything at the moment. This includes defensive staples such as Eternatus, bulky Extreme Killer, and Giratina as well as offensive staples such as Calyrex-S and Miraidon.
  2. Pokemon that can't hold Heavy-Duty Boots such as Zacian-C, Palkia-O, and every Arceus form bar Normal are at a significant disadvantage.
  3. Hyper Offense is at a distinct advantage, being capable of simply shutting Ting-Lu down with Taunt and exerting enough pressure to keep it from coming back in later on.
I am definitely expecting entry hazard stack to be the most prominent team style in the first stages of the metagame.

Some other observation:
  • Besides the likes of Calyrex-S, Ting-Lu, and Eternatus, I am expecting Skeledirge and Heavy-Duty Boots Miraidon to be excellent. Double Dance Miraidon is also bound to be ridiculously good soon enough, given the excellence of Ting-lu and Clodsire / Iron Treads being less common.
  • Arceus also has a lot of utility with Extreme Speed and a Normal-typing, but is easily shut down by Skeledirge if not running Taunt (which it can only fit on hyper offense).
  • Koraidon is not the best because it despises entry hazards and Skeledirge, but can be an enabler of Arceus spam if you use it to overwhelm Skeledirge with Stomping Tantrum / Taunt.
  • Zacian-C is good, it doesn't like entry hazards or Skeledirge but can overwhelm it with Tera Dark Crunch. A well-positioned one is nigh unstoppable given the lack of Primal Groudon, Necrozma-DM, and Ho-Oh.
  • Arceus formes bar Normal are honestly really underwhelming on balance because of entry hazards. However, the likes of Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground and Calm Mind Taunt Arceus-Fairy are bound to be good on hyper offense. Taunt + Healing Wish Arceus formes are also incredibly potent Stealth Rock leads.
  • Palkia-O, Regieleki, and Basculegion are underwhelming. Palkia-O dies to entry hazards, Regieleki hates Ting-Lu, and Basculegion can't overcome Extreme Killer without killing itself first due to Wave Crash recoil / entry hazards.
 
can we get an F in the forum for aura trio not returning yet (hopefully)

also trailblaze zacian just sounds obscene yet landorus lost (insert nearly every good support move here)? seriously???
 
:sv/arceus:
Best mon by a long shot at this point. Incredibly important in staving off caly, and helps vs pretty much every offensive threat while being a major threat in its own right, and makes almost every fast sweeper run tera ghost just to avoid getting revenge killed by it. I genuinely cannot praise this mon enough, and running a team without it is pretty misguided at this point.

:sv/kyogre:
Water Spout is a really powerful move. Extremely spammable with both specs and scarf sets. Scarf ogre is arguably the best scarfer atm, and specs is just a nuke with great offensive synergy with Zacian and Koraidon

:sv/groudon:
I really like Groudon in this meta. Defensive sets are shit, but SD goes hard. Not entirely outclassed by groundceus because it has considerably more power, and subsalac sets just fuck up teams without consistent defensive counterplay, with tera ghost blocking espeed. Fatter SD sets are great on offensive teams as an alternative to ting-lu as a spike setter.

:sv/calyrex-shadow:
Run.

:sv/zacian-crowned:
Insane defensive utiliy, also insane as a breaker. Try out sub instead of sd, results are shockingly good. Don't run behemoth blade unless you are cripplingly weak to fairyceus, play rough + coverage just outclasses it.

I'll give some more insight later, but this is just my most basic thoughts on some interesting mons.
 
The Preliminary Post-Home TTTG VR
(Take all this with a grain of salt because as we all know I’m not good at the game)
:sv/Arceus:
:sv/Calyrex-shadow:
:sv/Koraidon: :sv/Miraidon: :sv/kyogre:
:sv/Eternatus: :sv/Arceus-Ground: :sv/Ting-Lu: :sv/Zacian-Crowned:
:sv/Skeledirge: :sv/giratina-origin: :sv/Groudon: :sv/Arceus-fairy:
:sv/grimmsnarl: :sv/giratina: :sv/corviknight: :sv/clodsire:
:sv/Ditto: :sv/great tusk: :sv/Arceus-dark:

I’m sure I’m forgetting some mons, and I know the meta is largely unexplored, but these are my initial impressions. The meta is highly revolving around hard-hitting, offensive mons at the moment, so I grouped them by what I perceive to be their overall impact, and since there doesn’t seem to be an overwhelmingly great support pokemon yet (a la NDM/yveltal from gen 8) I decided to rank them lower as they serve as checks to the higher offensive presences while also potentially fulfilling a role like setting hazards or hazard removal. Ting-Lu is a soft exception as it very reliably sets rocks and spikes (which are much better than rocks at the moment by the way) and is an absolute behemoth defensively.
 
Played some more, liking this meta a lot more than pre-Home to be honest. Here's my personal VR at the moment ~

S Rank

:arceus: Arceus
The offensive utility of Extreme Speed paired with the defensive utility of a Normal-typing and a free item slot is excellent and puts Arceus above all of its other forms. A near-optimal Pokemon in the current landscape that should be on every team (you can even stack multiple on hyper offense).

:calyrex-shadow: Calyrex-S
The most dangerous offensive threat by far. It has tools to overcome pretty much everything you can throw at it such as Grass Knot for Ting-Lu and Tera Blast Fighting / Tera-boosted Psychic or Grass Knot / Encore for Arceus. Offensive counterplay is limited to a select few scarfers that are quickly overwhelmed with entry hazards and fail to revenge kill Focus Sash variants on hyper offense. Easily public enemy #1 to the entire metagame.

S- Rank

:miraidon: Miraidon
Miraidon remains defensively uncheckable in the long term to no one's surprise. Simple Heavy-Duty Boots Tera Dragon sets outlast / overwhelm both Ting-Lu and Arceus-Ground with ease, whereas Double Dance still wins games on the spot by overwhelming Ting-Lu and outhealing Extreme Speed with boosted Parabolic Charge. The capability of forcing damage on Ting-Lu is also invaluable.

:ting-lu: Ting-Lu
Ting-Lu warps the metagame around it, necessitating long-term options to beat itself and its entry hazards on every team. Tera Ghost shuts down one of the few ways to beat it in Great Tusk + gives opportunities to get a few extra entry hazards up vs. various threats. The utility of soft-checking both Miraidon and Calyrex-S is undeniably fantastic as well and it can even Tera Ghost and Whirlwind out boosted Arceus / Koraidon in a pinch.

A+ Rank

:arceus: Arceus-Ground
A dangerous threat with no real checks for any of its sets between Swords Dance / Dragon Dance and Calm Mind. However, it doesn't like entry hazards much so it's not the most splashable thing on any structure bar hyper offense.

:koraidon: Koraidon
Koraidon is still pretty threatening with its flagship Swords Dance + Flame Charge and Bulk Up + Taunt / Agility sets. Notably, it matches up positively against Arceus and Ting-Lu, which secures at least a couple of setup opportunities. The same thing applies here though; it doesn't like entry hazards and works best on hyper offense.

:skeledirge: Skeledirge
Skeledirge offers godlike role compression, shutting down multiple variants of Extreme Killer, Zacian-C, and Koraidon. The ability to hold Heavy-Duty Boots puts it far above defensive Arceus formes, which don't offer nearly the same amount of role compression in the first place. It is susceptible to Taunt Arceus, Stomping Tantrum Koraidon, and Tera Dark Crunch Zacian-C, but can usually win the 1v1 against Arceus anyway and with a correct predict, Tera Water into Will-O-Wisp beats both Koraidon and Zacian-C.

:zacian-crowned: Zacian-C
No access to Heavy-Duty Boots / recovery makes Zacian-C pretty high maintenance. However, this does pay off hugely; Swords Dance cleaves through everything once Skeledirge has been weakened. Alternatively, it can open up Extreme Killer and Koraidon by overwhelming Skeledirge itself with Tera Dark Crunch. Being an offensive check to Extreme Killer is obviously very significant as well.

A Rank

:eternatus: Eternatus
Eternatus is the best check to Kyogre and simultaneously a tremendous progress maker with Pressure and Toxic Spikes. It outstalls Defog with ease, which truly pushes Ting-Lu into centralizing territory. Eternatus can even Tera Ghost to block Great Tusk's Rapid Spin should it so desire; this has the added benefit of a Normal- and Fighting-immunity against Extreme Killer and Koraidon. All in all a very valuable Pokemon with unique characteristics that are in high-demand at the moment, similar to Skeledirge.

:great-tusk: Great Tusk
Great Tusk has extremely valuable niches. It's one of the few ways to make sure Ting-Lu doesn't get out of hand. It can Knock Off and get rid of Heavy-Duty Boots on a multitude of Pokemon. It's also a soft-check to Koraidon and Extreme Killer. Offensively, it's surprisingly adept at breaking through walls, easily getting rid of Eternatus / Skeledirge / Ting-Lu / bulky Arceus if given an opportunity. Even the sporadic non-Normal defensive Arceus can't handle it reliably with entry hazards up. Great Tusk's only flaw is that its longevity isn't great, but if you can build around this, it will do things no other Pokemon is capable of doing at the moment.

:kyogre: Kyogre
Kyogre is dangerous if given the opportunity, but loathes entry hazards, Eternatus, Orichalcum Pulse, and the generally offensive pace of the metagame due to Extreme Killer. Even Miraidon can trade Ice Beam damage for a clean OHKO if it comes down to that. If you build around it, Kyogre will do very well given that it scares out Ting-Lu and Skeledirge, but it's high maintenance regardless, putting it below other offensive threats for now.

A- Rank

:arceus: Arceus-Fairy
A dangerous cleaner on hyper offense with a Calm Mind + Taunt set, with Tera Water / Ground to beat revenge killing attempts from Zacian-C and Koraidon / Miraidon. It's only good on hyper offense though and has a good bit of competition on such a structure; support sets are mediocre.

:arceus: Arceus-Dark
Same thing as Arceus-Fairy but with a favourable matchup against Calyrex-S. It too can Terastalize into Poison to beat both Zacian-C and Koraidon. However, it too only fits on hyper offense in my opinion. There's way too much competition with Ting-Lu on any other structure.

:arceus: Arceus-Water
Another Calm Mind sweeper on hyper offense, this time with a favourable matchup into Choice Scarf Kyogre and a neutral matchup into Koraidon / Zacian-C / Calyrex-S. Tera is a get-out-of-jail card for it as well, giving it the ability to remove Miraidon with Tera Ground Earth Power. You know the drill by now: it's mediocre on balance.

:giratina: Giratina
Giratina offers unique role compression in being the best Defog user and soft-checking all physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp and a favourable typing, which it can also Terastalize out of if it needs to shed the weakness to Dragon / Dark / Ghost. It has way more longevity that its Origin form, which puts it above the latter. However, bear in mind that it's really passive at times, especially into Taunt or Substitute users.

Honourable mentions go to Giratina-O, Basculegion, Clodsire, and Ditto. I don't think any of them are good enough to be in the A ranks, but they have useful niches either way.
 
Generation Nine Anything Goes Post-Pokemon HOME Teambuilding Compendium (Trademark Pending)

Catchy name, I know. Anyway, inspired by a similar post for National Dex Ubers by Guard, I have compiled a list (in alphabetical order) of offensive and defensive checks for some of the top threats in the metagame in hope that it will help some people navigate this unfamiliar terriroty. I've very likely missed some relevant Pokemon, so feel free to suggest additions.

Arceus Counterplay
:arceus:
1685897269757.png
1685898300358.png
1686070420408.png
1685898442514.png
:corviknight::ditto::dondozo::giratina::giratina-origin::great tusk::orthworm::skeledirge::zacian-crowned:

Arceus-Dark Counterplay
:arceus:
1685897286521.png
:koraidon::zacian-crowned:

Arceus-Fairy Counterplay
:arceus::clodsire::skeledirge::zacian-crowned:

Arceus-Ground Counterplay
:arceus:
1685897298979.png
1685899113058.png
1685897335070.png
:corviknight::ditto::dondozo::giratina::giratina-origin::great tusk::koraidon::kyogre::landorus-therian::orthworm:

Arceus-Water Counterplay
:arceus::clodsire::giratina::giratina-origin::miraidon:

Calyrex-Shadow Counterplay
:arceus:
1685897304691.png
:calyrex-shadow::clodsire::ditto::koraidon::kyogre::miraidon::ting-lu:

Eternatus Counterplay
:arceus:
1685897369756.png
:blissey::calyrex-shadow::clodsire::ditto::koraidon::miraidon::ting-lu:

Groudon Counterplay
:arceus:
1685897315811.png
1685899113058.png
1686070435337.png
1685897344076.png
:calyrex-shadow::corviknight::ditto::dondozo::giratina::giratina-origin::great tusk::koraidon::kyogre::landorus-therian::miraidon::orthworm:

Koraidon Counterplay
:arceus:
1685897399241.png
1686070450459.png
1685898450601.png
:calyrex-shadow::ditto::dondozo::koraidon::miraidon::skeledirge::toxapex::zacian-crowned:

Kyogre Counterplay
:arceus:
1685899120727.png
1685897349319.png
:blissey::calyrex-shadow::clodsire::ditto::eternatus::giratina::giratina-origin::koraidon::miraidon:

Miraidon Counterplay
:arceus:
1685899127765.png
1685897377320.png
:blissey::calyrex-shadow::clodsire::ditto::ting-lu:

Zacian-Crowned Counterplay
1685897381623.png
1685898734291.png
:calyrex-shadow::corviknight::ditto::dondozo::groudon::koraidon::kyogre::landorus-therian::miraidon::skeledirge::toxapex:

Stealth Rock Users
:arceus::azelf::blissey::clodsire::glimmora::great tusk::groudon::landorus-therian::orthworm::rayquaza::ting-lu:

Spikes or Toxic Spikes Users
:clodsire::eternatus::froslass::glimmora::groudon::orthworm::ting-lu::toxapex:

Anti-Hazards
:corviknight::giratina::giratina-origin::great tusk::heavy-duty boots:

Speed Control
:arceus::calyrex-shadow::ditto::koraidon::kyogre::miraidon::zacian-crowned:
 
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Generation Nine Anything Goes Post-Pokemon HOME Teambuilding Compendium (Trademark Pending)

Catchy name, I know. Anyway, inspired by a similar post for National Dex Ubers by Guard, I have compiled a list (in alphabetical order) of offensive and defensive checks for some of the top threats in the metagame in hope that it will help some people navigate this unfamiliar terriroty. I've very likely missed some relevant Pokemon, so feel free to suggest additions.

Arceus Counterplay
:arceus:View attachment 522817View attachment 522832View attachment 522836:corviknight::ditto::dondozo::giratina::giratina-origin::great tusk::orthworm::skeledirge::zacian-crowned:

Arceus-Dark Counterplay
:arceus:View attachment 522818:koraidon::zacian-crowned:

Arceus-Fairy Counterplay
:arceus::clodsire::skeledirge::zacian-crowned:

Arceus-Ground Counterplay
:arceus:View attachment 522819View attachment 522841View attachment 522822:corviknight::ditto::dondozo::giratina::giratina-origin::great tusk::koraidon::kyogre::orthworm:

Arceus-Water Counterplay
:arceus:View attachment 522842:clodsire::giratina::giratina-origin::miraidon:

Calyrex-Shadow Counterplay
:arceus:View attachment 522820:calyrex-shadow::ditto::koraidon::kyogre::miraidon::ting-lu:

Eternatus Counterplay
:arceus:View attachment 522825:blissey::calyrex-shadow::clodsire::ditto::koraidon::miraidon::ting-lu:

Groudon Counterplay
:arceus:View attachment 522821View attachment 522844View attachment 522823:calyrex-shadow::corviknight::ditto::dondozo::giratina::giratina-origin::great tusk::koraidon::kyogre::miraidon::orthworm:

Koraidon Counterplay
:arceus:View attachment 522828View attachment 522837:calyrex-shadow::ditto::dondozo::koraidon::miraidon::skeledirge::toxapex::zacian-crowned:

Kyogre Counterplay
:arceus:View attachment 522845View attachment 522824:blissey::calyrex-shadow::clodsire::ditto::eternatus::giratina::giratina-origin::koraidon::miraidon:

Miraidon Counterplay
:arceus:View attachment 522846View attachment 522826:blissey::calyrex-shadow::clodsire::ditto::ting-lu:

Zacian-Crowned Counterplay
View attachment 522827View attachment 522838:calyrex-shadow::corviknight::ditto::dondozo::groudon::koraidon::kyogre::miraidon::skeledirge::toxapex:

Stealth Rock Users
:arceus::azelf::blissey::clodsire::glimmora::great tusk::groudon::rayquaza::ting-lu:

Spikes or Toxic Spikes Users
:clodsire::eternatus::froslass::glimmora::groudon::ting-lu::toxapex:

Anti-Hazards
:corviknight::giratina::giratina-origin::great tusk::heavy-duty boots:

Speed Control
:arceus::calyrex-shadow::ditto::koraidon::kyogre::miraidon::zacian-crowned:
Great list, just a few things I thought I would mention

put Orthworm under Rocks/Spikes, and I think that adding Groundceus as a check to Arceus, Koraidon, and Groudon is worthwhile as support Groundceus is surprisingly potent with a set of Taunt, Will-o-wisp, Judgement, and Recover
Also add Clodsire as a Caly check, it’s definitely worth listing.
 
For me goth should be at least an A- tier, still very strong even with the come of the new mons. It can be used for example to trap an eternatus, ting-lu, clod so Caly s, kyogre and other relevant special attackers can sweep easily the whole team.
 
hello friends, after grinding ag this pl, even though i have very little to show for it due to um,...well, people didnt respect me...so i ended up building mostly for myself because i got pushed out. my record also ended up being not very good despite me feeling great in what ive made which sucks but, fwiw, i think ag is not very good as a bo1 format. so that's also just...that

I really do feel very good about everything that I have built. I have made a little personal VR to show my meta thoughts. Thanks to the help of some friends I refined my teams to be very centralized in what I use. The S tier mons are all really just completely in a league of their own. The distance in quality between S+ and S is decent in my mind, and then even bigger between that and S-. S- to A is small-ish, and then bigger between that and A-, although A- to B is also still big....I condensed B a lot and pushed most everything to C and D. B is the end of what I would actually fit on a team normally. C is good fish, and D is fish where I respect you but it's still very inconsistent...but still viable. If it isn't listed I think it's bad.

S Rank

S+

:arceus: Arceus
:koraidon: Koraidon

S

:calyrex-shadow: Calyrex-S

S-

:arceus-fairy: :pixie-plate: Arceus-Fairy
:arceus-ground::earth-plate: Arceus-Ground
:ting-lu: Ting-Lu

A Rank

A+

:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin
:kyogre: Kyogre
:miraidon: Miraidon

A

:eternatus: Eternatus
:skeledirge: Skeledirge
:zacian-crowned: Zacian-Crowned

A-

:arceus-water: :splash-plate: Arceus-Water
:groudon: Groudon
:landorus-therian: Landorus-Therian

B Rank

:glimmora: Glimmora
:kingambit: Kingambit
:toxapex: Toxapex
:wo-chien: Wo-Chien


C Rank

:arceus-dark: :dread-plate: Arceus-Dark
:arceus-ghost: :spooky-plate: Arceus-Ghost
:arceus-poison: :toxic-plate: Arceus-Poison
:arceus-steel: :iron-plate: Arceus-Steel
:calyrex-ice: Calyrex-Ice
:clodsire: Clodsire
:ditto: Ditto
:dondozo: Dondozo
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:flutter-mane: Flutter Mane
:muk-alola: Muk-Alola
:rayquaza: Rayquaza

D Rank

:arceus-fighting: :fist-plate: Arceus-Fighting
:arceus-flying: :sky-plate: Arceus-Flying
:arceus-grass: :meadow-plate: Arceus-Grass
:brute-bonnet: Brute Bonnet
:chi-yu: Chi-Yu
:corviknight: Corviknight
:cyclizar: Cyclizar
:dialga: Dialga
:dugtrio: Dugtrio
:great-tusk: Great Tusk
:hatterene: Hatterene
:landorus: Landorus
:magearna: Magearna
:masquerain: Masquerain
:meowscarada: Meowscarada
:samurott-hisui: Samurott-Hisui
:ursaluna: Ursaluna
:vivillon: Vivillon

Things I built that were brought
:calyrex-shadow: :arceus: :pixie_plate: :zacian-crowned: :landorus-therian: :koraidon:
This was for my first game vs clean. It's standard 5 offensive pokes + Lando-T, with a quasi-fairy spam core with Pixceus/Zac-c. Team is fine, I'd probably go sicko mode with the EVs now and adjust the sets some but it's fine. The Tera Ghost CB Korai tech worked which was funny.

:calyrex-shadow: :ting-lu: :skeledirge: :eternatus: :arceus: :earth_plate:
I think Losco brought this early on. I built it with Tax. It's balance. BORING, NEXT!!!

:arceus: :pixie_plate: :koraidon: :calyrex-shadow: :toxic_plate: :dread_plate:
I brought this vs Trade and looking back on it, I tried to cover too many threats. Should have not used mid Arc formes and instead tried to win. NEXT!!!

:pixie_plate: :eternatus: :arceus: :pixie_plate: :koraidon: :calyrex-shadow:
I brought this vs Nael and this is where I'd say I started really figuring out how to actually build this tier well. I faced a lot of disrespect after my game from certain people with how I was spamming offense but looking back on it, ok yeah I played really bad but if I instead played well....this was an easy dub for this comp. Double Fairyceus offense is great, the concept with NP baton pass Caly was great, Idk was just a total skill issue on my part. Still really like this team, the Arceus/Korai/Etern part could be refined more and probably should be, but I love just the idea behind the team. Offensive Fairyceus has so many cool variations that can be used that are just not explored because a lot of people suck at the game.

:calyrex-shadow: :giratina-origin: :ting-lu: :kyogre: :arceus: :kingambit:
I like this team a lot. I choked my game. Team is still really good. Kingambit is slay af. NEXT!!!

Other teams / Thoughts on the meta
I really will drop it after this, but as I go through my builder, I am sad that I didn't get to show how in my bag I was. Tbqh, I still am in my bag. My teams are great, I'm slaying and innovating, and most of you aren't. Most of what I am going to post is offense because that is what I enjoy building and toying with. Balance is boring in this tier, SORRY. I can build balance in my sleep, there's nothing intellectually stimulating about it.

Semistall and Balance
I spent 30 minutes trying to build stall and lost interest. I think at most you can fit 4 fat mons and then add a Caly-S/EK and it's kinda solved. Blissey sucks don't use it, try and have some offensive presence on the team.

:arceus: :calyrex-shadow: :giratina-origin: :clodsire: :dondozo: :pixie_plate:
Someone can do better than me but this is how good I made it before losing interest. Clodsire is so bad but it's kinda mandatory. Dondozo is a cutie, Pixceus is fun, everything else is just kinda standard with Rest Giratina-O for the longevity. Stall is tricky bc you want Ting-Lu but you want Clodsire....Idk....Ting + Dondozo feels like anti-synergy...it hurts my brain to build fat in this tier....

:kingambit: :arceus: :giratina-origin: :skeledirge: :ting-lu: :calyrex-shadow:
I built another Kingambit team, influenced by something Adhi had posted. It sure is a balance team with a Kingambit.

:earth_plate: :miraidon: :ting-lu: :arceus: :calyrex-shadow: :giratina-origin:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 32 HP / 128+ Def Arceus-Ground: 328-387 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 216 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 44 HP / 196 SpD Arceus: 196-232 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Don't question me ever again.

:arceus-ground: :koraidon: :brute bonnet: :arceus: :calyrex-shadow: :landorus-therian:
Brute Bonnet is like Wo-Chien except it gets Spore which is cute. That's about it. It doesn't make as much progress but it has Spore. Spore is good. I like Spore. Synthesis is also cool.

So What Can I Spam?
:arceus: (all) - Running more than 4 of any Arceus on your team (as in the combined number of all Arceus is greater than 4) is wack. At that point can't you run a Koraidon or Ting-Lu or something? Be normal, Arc got cucked this gen it isn't that insane.

:arceus: (Normal) - Don't run more than 4 EKiller that's wack. Running 3 EK + screens EK is fine, or some weird Taunt Arc. I wouldn't run any other Arc besides EK or screens/sd rocks or something funky. Running more than 4 EK is wack regardless bc you want the immediate offensive power of Korai, or Caly as an EK immune, or a Zacian or a Groundy...There's just too many things that can trip you up if you bring EK spam (Pex, Skele, Gira-o) that running more than 4 is just unoptimal. tldr; 3 EK is great, 4 is getting into unoptimal territory.

:koraidon: 2 is perfect. 3 is viable but pushing it; you get weird mus with 3. 2 is great though, love 2 Korai. With Korai spam you want at 2, and then 1-2 EK, maybe a Zac, maybe a Caly. 3 is cheese (but fine).

:earth_plate: I'm sure 2 Groundy is fine. DD + DD Ibeam, DD + CM, 2 CM is probably wack but fine. I find it hard to justify Groundyspam just because of how setup reliant it is, but the comp is fine. Just not what I lean towards.

:pixie_plate: 2 Pixceus is great. I LOVE this mon; has a super spammable Judge, great tera interactions, threatening off the bat, not cucked by wisp. 10/10 would spam more of this mon.

:zacian-crowned: I've tried using 2-3 Zac this gen but it just doesn't work. The ISword nerf just really makes it hard to use along with Dirge being one of the best physical walls in the tier. You don't threaten much with an OHKO on switch, meaning you're reliant on SD and then Tera to break Dirge. Running 2 of Zac means that you aren't spamming Koraidon too which is an offense that is irredeemable....

1 EK Offense
:zacian-crowned: :koraidon: :arceus: :calyrex-shadow: :koraidon: :koraidon:
:arceus: :cyclizar: :kyogre: :zacian-crowned: :calyrex-shadow: :koraidon:
:eternatus: :koraidon: :flutter mane: :calyrex-shadow: :koraidon: :arceus:
:pixie_plate: :landorus-therian: :zacian-crowned: :koraidon: :arceus: :calyrex-shadow:
:calyrex-shadow: :arceus-ground: :arceus: :miraidon: :koraidon: :zacian-crowned:

2 EK Offense
:arceus: :koraidon: :arceus: :kyogre: :dugtrio: :calyrex-shadow:
:zacian-crowned: :arceus: :arceus: :koraidon: :miraidon: :calyrex-shadow:

3 EK Offense
:arceus: :arceus: :arceus: :zacian-crowned: :calyrex-shadow: :koraidon:
:arceus: :arceus: :koraidon: :arceus: :calyrex-shadow: :koraidon:
:arceus: :koraidon: :arceus: :arceus: :glimmora: :koraidon:
:arceus: :calyrex-shadow: :koraidon: :arceus-ground: :arceus: :arceus:

4 EK Offense
:arceus: :arceus: :arceus: :arceus: :calyrex-shadow: :koraidon:

On Offense
I think part of what led me to feel excised from my team was definitely that I got big into really innovating offense, which wasn't what some people wanted to see. I have been told incessantly that offense (specifically) HO is bad and what I've realized is that this is purely due to most people building offense poorly. A lot of the offense people have brought this PL has been fish, and that's fine. I don't mind fish, I've lived on the east coast my entire life (badum tiss) but what I've realized (ty professor astralydia) is that when you actually take offense and condense it into its most basic parts (if you just use mons from the S tier in my personal VR + 1 in one of the lower ranks) it's probably the best style in the meta right now. It is impossible to innovate balance fast enough to keep up with innovations in offense. I at least feel like I have put in the work to push offense forward and I don't know what is taking others so long to actually do the same.

Offense really does not have to be you know, picking one of Grimm/Glimm/Meow/Hamurott/Lead Arc + Caly-S + 1-2 EK + 1-2 Koraidon, or building 3 Koraidon + 3 other random pokes. Put some thought and pride into what you're making, be innovative. God I feel like I tryharded this tier for 2 weeks at the end and I already am doing more than what people have done since home dropped. Screens Miraidon, Bulky Scarf Korai, Bulky setup Zac-C, Bulky Tera Zac-C, interesting moves on EK, anti-leads, if you put 3 brain cells together you will be able to come up with interesting sets and realize that a well built offense is actually impossible to beat in this meta if you click above average (and obv don't load impossible mu).

A lot of offense right now in my mind is limiting opposing hazards, not allowing Ting free turns, being able to 2HKO skele on the switch or at least wear it down enough to win, having outs vs Taunt, having outs vs Pex, having outs vs Caly, it sounds like a lot obviously but most of it is also just what you would consider when building regular degular teams. Much of it is also just learning that only 1/3 of what you want to use is viable. Prioritizing consistency and overall matchup strength is what is important. I don't care if I lose 10% of the time vs a random B rank (Glimmora) if it means that I am making the team stronger into the other 90% of matchups. None of this shit matters. You will get cheesed by tera. You will lose in frustrating ways. When you accept that, building becomes easier.

Much of this is just frustration I have had being miserable on my team and dealing with the most asinine comments I have ever received in my life because I was not shown respect by someone who doesn't even have their high school degree yet, but it's fine. Offense is great in this meta, use it more.

Also, Caly-S is not as mandatory as you may think it is, especially on offense. I've found that you can often forego Caly for something that is more immediately threatening, such as say, Koraidon. The main perk of Caly on offense is that it's an EK immune, which is amazing don't get me wrong. However it does sometimes feel like you forego overall synergy when adding Caly to offense team, especially physical spam. There are definitely synergestic Caly offenses (i.e. NP pass) but on physical spam, it often feels like 5 pokes + a Caly. Try and build less with it, you may be surprised that it isnt as necessary as you think it is (still broken tho).
 
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:wow: A set comp! This is using my own personal VR. I know homw coming soon will shake things up but I wanted to put some resources out there.

s -> b are ordered by viability, c and d are alphabetical. Click on the mons for the hyperlink. Sets are organized within the pastes by my own perceived viability and the use I see.






:amoonguss: Amoonguss
:basculegion: Basculegion-Male
:blissey: Blissey
:brute-bonnet: Brute Bonnet
:cresselia: Cresselia - I do not know what people run on this but I assume people run one of Screens/Lunar Dance support/Trick Room
:dialga: Dialga
:dugtrio: Dugtrio
:garchomp: Garchomp
:giratina: Giratina
:meloetta: Meloetta

Teamdump https://pokepast.es/0fcdc1084192a85c

Goodnight
 
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okay I wanted to ask which was better between sub-mind calyrex-s and sash one. The avantage of The first is its matchup agaisnt non-cm blissey, while The Other can get a
Any time and has a good matchup agaisnt Non sash ones if full hp. I agree, both sets have inconvenients. sash is only reliable if speed control is amazing in your team, while sub-mind has The flaw of being nuked by strong physical attackers
 
sub mind in my opinion is a bit worse because you are you are only using it to counter non cm blissey most blisseys run cm these days so yeah
 
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