hmm i have been swept by this before...intimidate is a very useful tool to help with the setup, alongside max airstream stab and a stronger max airstream than a groudon. but if you wanted to set a stealth rock, this is not the pokemon, i think you should use an excadrill or a lycanroc instead. but yes i agree to d or to c rank.
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Resource AG Viability Rankings
- Thread starter cromagnet
- Start date
:chansey: UR-> D
Chansey is really good. I know some people think that Blissely is better but that is debatable. I personally think that Chansey is better because it has access to Eviolite. Eviolite just makes Chansey really good. The set that I use that I find really useful is this:
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Teleport
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy
This set just works great. The Eviolite makes it really strong against some mons and allows it to survive and destroy mons with either toxic or seismic toss.
You can easily stall any of these mons with toxic soft boiled or seismic toss softboiled. The thing is this mon is pretty great. But showing only Chansey calcs doesn't really mean anything. The comparison is between Chansey and Blissey. So the set for Blissey is:
Blissey (F) @ Utility Umbrella
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Teleport
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy
So now I will show you how Blissey is worse than Chansey:
The major difference is that all those super small chances to OHKO Chansey in that certain turn becomes guaranteed for Blissey and that actually changes things. In fact, some of those calcs go down a turn for Blissey. For example, Calyrex shadow is guaranteed to kill Chansey with Psyshock in 3 turns while Blissey is becoming a high chance to kill it in 2 turns. But I am not saying that Blissey should be UR. I am saying that Chansey shouldn't. The major difference is that Chansey gets Eviolite while Blissey doesn't making Chansey really good. So I just think that Chansey shouldn't be UR, it should at least be D.
:ss/chansey:
D
Chansey is really good. I know some people think that Blissely is better but that is debatable. I personally think that Chansey is better because it has access to Eviolite. Eviolite just makes Chansey really good. The set that I use that I find really useful is this:
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Teleport
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy
This set just works great. The Eviolite makes it really strong against some mons and allows it to survive and destroy mons with either toxic or seismic toss.
:eternatus:252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 109-129 (16.9 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane:0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 231-273 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:Calyrex-shadow:252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 226-267 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:yveltal: 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 117-138 (18.2 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
:kyogre: 252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 210-247 (32.7 - 38.4%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
:Xerneas: +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 270-318 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane:0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 231-273 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:Calyrex-shadow:252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 226-267 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:yveltal: 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 117-138 (18.2 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
:kyogre: 252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 210-247 (32.7 - 38.4%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
:Xerneas: +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 270-318 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Blissey (F) @ Utility Umbrella
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Teleport
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy
So now I will show you how Blissey is worse than Chansey:
:kyogre: 252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 262-310 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:yveltal: 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 146-173 (22.3 - 26.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 4HKO
:Calyrex-shadow:252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 310-366 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane:0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 316-373 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
:eternatus:252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 134-160 (20.5 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
:Xerneas: +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 338-398 (51.8 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:yveltal: 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 146-173 (22.3 - 26.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 4HKO
:Calyrex-shadow:252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 310-366 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane:0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 316-373 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
:eternatus:252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 134-160 (20.5 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
:Xerneas: +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 338-398 (51.8 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:ss/chansey:
D
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Just gonna note that Blissey runs umbrella to beat ogre, and chansey loses to specs ogre.
The chansey set you posted loses to Geoxern, Yveltal is almost always mixed or physical nowadays and meteor beam etern just breaks past you or stalls out seismic toss PP
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Some of this is a good rebuttal, but some of this is inaccurate. While the specific chansey set posted is really bad due to a complete lack of ability to exploit chansey's strengths, chansey in general is definitely worthy of at least D. Eviolite Chansey fares far better than Umbrella Blissey against both Xerneas and Yveltal. Koff/wingbeat from yveltal chunks both mons, but hurts Blissey way more due to a lack of eviolite. Xerneas beats Blissey in many toss-up situations due to dmax, while chansey with confide is guaranteed to win and chansey with stoss and status stands a good chance. As for meteor beam etern,
I will also add one thing against chansey that hasn't been mentioned, and that is that chansey autoloses to goth while blissey can run shed shell. However, due to the prominence of specs ogre in the metagame and a fall in gothitelle popularity, this advantage for blissey has mattered less and less.
So, I support Chansey to D. Some examples of why you might want to run chansey over blissey below:
252+ Atk Life Orb Yveltal Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 374-444 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Yveltal Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 272-322 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Max Starfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 364-429 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Max Starfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 291-343 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 338-398 (51.8 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 270-318 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 316-373 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 231-273 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Yveltal Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 272-322 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Max Starfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 364-429 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Max Starfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 291-343 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 338-398 (51.8 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 270-318 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 316-373 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 231-273 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
i have a nomination!
:calyrex-ice: b rank
calyrex ice has a very high bulk, even with it having a poor defensive typing, so it can survive hits and then set up a trick room. it is able to survive hits from many sweepers after a setup because of its very high bulk, and then trick room and defeat them, and counter sweep. it has many options, like swords dance and agility, to defeat many of the sweepers in the metagame. it is better than its friends in the b- rank, dracovish and rayquaza are not very consistent as wallbreakers and need a good matchup to thrive. calyrex ice does not need a good matchup to do very well, but calyrex ice is held back by the bad typing and it cannot defeat necrozma dusk mane very easily. but it is better than the b- rank pokemon, so i think you should rise it to b rank.
:giratina: b- rank
giratina on the other hand is not as good as b rank, the metagame is full of dangerous attackers to it like yveltal, calyrex and xerneas. many of the top tier pokemon in the s, s- and a+ rank can defeat it without too much of problems, and many of its niches are also covered by necrozma dusk mane and zygarde, except for being able to inflict status on a kyogre safely. it is too passive for the current metagame, as stall is not a very strong playstyle because of the very dangerous wallbreakers in the metagame. however there is merit in using giratina, because it checks many diverse pokemon in one wall with huge bulk. that makes it a good blanket check. however because it can be taken advantage of easily, i think it should drop to b- rank.
now i will talk about the other nominations
:kyurem-white: b- rank, i agree with it because while it is not very powerful, kyogre and zygarde are both very oppressive in the teambuilding so being able to defeat both with one pokemon is very good. however it falls short in many places because freeze dry is only 70 base power and not very strong, and it can struggle vs other common pokemon like ho-oh, xerneas and a healthy necrozma dusk mane. but because of the strong role compression it deserves a b- rank.
:eternatus: s- rank, i disagree, it is a very good pokemon but i do not think it is on the level of zacian, kyogre, and zygarde right now, where you need a very strong counterplay to it or you will be destroyed by it. the a+ rank fits it more because it is a staple but you do not need to answer it specially.
:landorus-therian: d rank, i am on the fence. for one it is a strong dynamax user, which can defeat ditto because the ditto cannot hit landorus therian with earthquake or fly. it also has intimidate to set up vs physical pokemon. but on the other hand, it does not have too much over a groudon. if you have a strong imposter proofing for groudon, you do not need a landorus therian. so i am thinking still.
:chansey: d rank, i disagree. chansey does not do much over blissey. also, chansey will suffer more from a knock off, because losing eviolite is much more important than blissey losing its umbrella.
:calyrex-ice: b rank
calyrex ice has a very high bulk, even with it having a poor defensive typing, so it can survive hits and then set up a trick room. it is able to survive hits from many sweepers after a setup because of its very high bulk, and then trick room and defeat them, and counter sweep. it has many options, like swords dance and agility, to defeat many of the sweepers in the metagame. it is better than its friends in the b- rank, dracovish and rayquaza are not very consistent as wallbreakers and need a good matchup to thrive. calyrex ice does not need a good matchup to do very well, but calyrex ice is held back by the bad typing and it cannot defeat necrozma dusk mane very easily. but it is better than the b- rank pokemon, so i think you should rise it to b rank.
:giratina: b- rank
giratina on the other hand is not as good as b rank, the metagame is full of dangerous attackers to it like yveltal, calyrex and xerneas. many of the top tier pokemon in the s, s- and a+ rank can defeat it without too much of problems, and many of its niches are also covered by necrozma dusk mane and zygarde, except for being able to inflict status on a kyogre safely. it is too passive for the current metagame, as stall is not a very strong playstyle because of the very dangerous wallbreakers in the metagame. however there is merit in using giratina, because it checks many diverse pokemon in one wall with huge bulk. that makes it a good blanket check. however because it can be taken advantage of easily, i think it should drop to b- rank.
now i will talk about the other nominations
:kyurem-white: b- rank, i agree with it because while it is not very powerful, kyogre and zygarde are both very oppressive in the teambuilding so being able to defeat both with one pokemon is very good. however it falls short in many places because freeze dry is only 70 base power and not very strong, and it can struggle vs other common pokemon like ho-oh, xerneas and a healthy necrozma dusk mane. but because of the strong role compression it deserves a b- rank.
:eternatus: s- rank, i disagree, it is a very good pokemon but i do not think it is on the level of zacian, kyogre, and zygarde right now, where you need a very strong counterplay to it or you will be destroyed by it. the a+ rank fits it more because it is a staple but you do not need to answer it specially.
:landorus-therian: d rank, i am on the fence. for one it is a strong dynamax user, which can defeat ditto because the ditto cannot hit landorus therian with earthquake or fly. it also has intimidate to set up vs physical pokemon. but on the other hand, it does not have too much over a groudon. if you have a strong imposter proofing for groudon, you do not need a landorus therian. so i am thinking still.
:chansey: d rank, i disagree. chansey does not do much over blissey. also, chansey will suffer more from a knock off, because losing eviolite is much more important than blissey losing its umbrella.
Both Chansey and Blissey auto lose to yveltal knock off so that doesn't real matter. They will both die in two turns
:yveltal:252 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 309-364 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
:yveltal:252 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 424-499 (65 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In fact, Chansey has a chance to die in 3 turns while Blissey auto dies in 2. Also, Eternatus is very bulky and can survive a hit. It makes kyogre scarf auto switch and can kill a zygarde 1 shot with Dynamax cannon. It can survive a hit or two against zacian if you use the right set. Also, eternatus is great at setting toxic spikes which can be a problem for your opp. I can talk more about eternatus and how good it is but you can just look at the post I made about it.
i know the niches of eternatus. but i do not see how the niches make it as good as kyogre and zacian and zygarde. i will put it this way.
kyogre has very much restricted teambuilding, because it always demands a very solid check like ferrothorn or palkia. especially because the red orb is gone, so you cannot use a primal groudon anymore. that makes teambuilding very hard, because you always have to keep kyogre in mind at all times, or else it will win the game. even if you have brought a solid check kyogre can win the game anyways, because it can do very large damage to many of its very good counters as well, such as eternatus and ferrothorn, and once they have reached too low health it can be abused by the kyogre teammates or kyogre itself. the teammates can also soften up the checks without a strong healing move, such as ferrothorn and palkia, and then kyogre can defeat them. so it is very oppressive in games.
next up is zacian crowned, he only has very few switch ins. the only two pokemon that can switch in are necrozma dusk mane and a physical defensive groudon, and groudon has no strong healing move. because of its very very fast speed, and its high bulk with the very good defensive typing, it is very hard for offensive teams to answer easily. they are going to usually need a sacrifice. assurance can also defeat the only viable counter with a good healing move, necrozma dusk mane, with a proper read, so zacian crowned also pressures balance very much. so zacian can pressure every team except ones with very specific counters, such as quagsire or a physically defensive reshiram.
finally zygarde is just very strong at defeating bulky teams. the substitute and glare, along with power construct, means that it can stall out many of its answers for a paralyze, so true answers to zygarde are also rare. it has to be answered immediately, or it can run away with the game even if the matchup is against it (unless the matchup is very against it, such as if they have a shedinja) otherwise it can get a substitute up. if it does get a substitute up, it can even beat choice scarf kyogre if it switches on the substitute, by paralyzing it, then using substitute until a full paralyze, then setting up. and it can repeat this on many many targets. this is only the dragon dance set too, it can also run defensive sets, coil, or even a trapping set. zygarde is super versatile and powerful and players can struggle to answer it even with very good checks.
there is a theme in all of these s- ranks, even if presented with strong checks they can still pressure and bypass the checks and remain with very strong presences in the match, only being stopped consistently by true counters. eternatus does not fit that criteria. if eternatus presented with a tyranitar or, if it does not have sludge bomb, a xerneas, it will never work around them, nor will it pressure them very much. which is not to say eternatus is bad, eternatus is a very powerful pokemon, but not deserving of s- in my opinion.
also, the fact that chansey takes less damage from knock off does not mean it is less vulnerable than blissey. losing eviolite is very bad and makes it much weaker, so it can be taken advantage of by pokemon like kyogre who are very strong wallbreakers and would normally not be able to 2hko it with an eviolite. also, the evs on the yveltal are wrong here, yveltal usually runs 4 attack with a life orb when it uses knock off, so the calculation will look like this
4 Atk :life-orb: Dark Aura :yveltal: Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def :chansey:: 331-390 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk :life-orb: Dark Aura :yveltal: Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def :blissey:: 456-538 (69.9 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:Chansey: and :Blissey:
Blissey still takes more damage either way and nobody would be dumb enough to switch out after you get hit. It would be a waste. Also please note that I did not make the Chansey and Blissey set myself I had someone with experience in ag and is good at ag give them to me.
:Eternatus:
Zygarde will get Ohko by Eternatus from Dynamax cannon so it doesn't even have the chance to glare or do any real damage. Eternatus has recover so you can heal hell and avoid getting on low health. But even then ice beam will not do that much damage. If there is a zacian out then you can switch out to something such as a necrozema dusk mane. If the zacian has a dark type move such as assurance it still won't both be enough to kill you. You can keep recovering and the zacian will eventually either switch or die if you have a rocky helmet.
:kyogre: 252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 236 HP / 228+ SpD Eternatus: 182-216 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
:zygarde: 252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 478-564 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:zacian-crowned: +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 313-369 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
:zygarde: 252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 478-564 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:zacian-crowned: +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 313-369 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
eternatus can revenge kill a zygarde normally. however if it comes in on the zygarde substitute, zygarde can use glare and paralyze it as eternatus uses dynamax cannon on the substitute and breaks it. now that it is faster, it can substitute until eternatus is paralyzed, and set up on it all the same. this is what i mean about zygarde being able to break its standard checks. do not worry about the chansey and blissey, you are using the correct evs. but i still would not bring a blissey on an yveltal without scouting it, because it can use a knock off or taunt. toxic spikes is very good, so eternatus being able to set the toxic spikes and remove them is very helpful. but now that there are strong defoggers, such as yveltal and ho-oh being more common, it is harder to use toxic spikes. toxic spikes is still good though. also, you are using two different sets to face the kyogre and zacian, and to face the zygarde. this is the true calculation on a defensive zygarde:
0 SpA :eternatus: Dynamax Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD :zygarde:: 312-368 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and :leftovers: recovery
however eternatus can defeat offensive zygarde sometimes
0 SpA :eternatus: Dynamax Cannon vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD :zygarde:: 312-368 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So I've never done a VR nom but here goes nothin.
I'd like to nominateGolduck to S-Rank Bronzong to D-Rank.
Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Toxic
- Protect / Rest
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock / Rest
Bronzong, in my opinion, has a notable niche in the Galar AG metagame: it is the only Pokemon that resists or is immune to all attacks from the ever so common Swords Dance Dynamax-sweeper Groudon.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Rockfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 133-156 (39.3 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Airstream vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 112-133 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 9.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
The obvious issue with Bronzong as a Groudon check is its lack of reliable recovery. It does get access to rest but that can only get you so far. However, paired with Toxic and the fact that it takes two Max Rockfalls at +2, it can safely switch in to a Dynamaxed Groudon from full at +2, take a hit from Max Rockfall, fire off (and hopefully hit) a Toxic, rest up, and watch the Don wither. While niche, it seems to me to be one of the most reliable ways of dealing with a Groudon once it's set up other than Ditto revenge killing.
With this niche, Bronzong also acts as an alternative Stealth Rock setter to the overwhelmingly common Dusk Mane Necrozma. While not as good of a Xerneas check as NDM, Bronzong can act as a softer Xerneas check; it does take one Max Lightning at +2 (albeit not all that well) and can fire back with a Gyro Ball (or it can defensively Dynamax). It's also not near as good of a Zacian-C check as NDM; however, this can be circumvented when paired with Quagsire. Bronzong and Quagsire provide a solid physically-defensive core that handles pretty much every physically offensive threat the meta has to offer barring the Gen 5 Dragons (which NDM can't handle anyway).
In short, while Bronzong isn't a game-changing Pokemon by any stretch, I do feel like it has a relevant enough niche to warrant placement in the D-Rank.
I'd like to nominate
Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Toxic
- Protect / Rest
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock / Rest
Bronzong, in my opinion, has a notable niche in the Galar AG metagame: it is the only Pokemon that resists or is immune to all attacks from the ever so common Swords Dance Dynamax-sweeper Groudon.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Rockfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 133-156 (39.3 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Airstream vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 112-133 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 9.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
The obvious issue with Bronzong as a Groudon check is its lack of reliable recovery. It does get access to rest but that can only get you so far. However, paired with Toxic and the fact that it takes two Max Rockfalls at +2, it can safely switch in to a Dynamaxed Groudon from full at +2, take a hit from Max Rockfall, fire off (and hopefully hit) a Toxic, rest up, and watch the Don wither. While niche, it seems to me to be one of the most reliable ways of dealing with a Groudon once it's set up other than Ditto revenge killing.
With this niche, Bronzong also acts as an alternative Stealth Rock setter to the overwhelmingly common Dusk Mane Necrozma. While not as good of a Xerneas check as NDM, Bronzong can act as a softer Xerneas check; it does take one Max Lightning at +2 (albeit not all that well) and can fire back with a Gyro Ball (or it can defensively Dynamax). It's also not near as good of a Zacian-C check as NDM; however, this can be circumvented when paired with Quagsire. Bronzong and Quagsire provide a solid physically-defensive core that handles pretty much every physically offensive threat the meta has to offer barring the Gen 5 Dragons (which NDM can't handle anyway).
In short, while Bronzong isn't a game-changing Pokemon by any stretch, I do feel like it has a relevant enough niche to warrant placement in the D-Rank.
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:Toxapex: D -> UNR
What exactly is Toxapex doing in this meta? It distinguished itself in gen7 as an incredibly reliable answer to ho-oh, ability to soak up toxics and toxic spikes, and being able to take neutral damage from most attacks, which was enough to barely answer most mons. However, Ho-oh has been seeing less and less play (especially as an offensive mon), Eternatus is a significantly better toxic-soaker, and the top threats in the current metagame all dominate toxapex:
Hence, there is nearly no reason to run Toxapex over any other wall in the AG metagame.
What exactly is Toxapex doing in this meta? It distinguished itself in gen7 as an incredibly reliable answer to ho-oh, ability to soak up toxics and toxic spikes, and being able to take neutral damage from most attacks, which was enough to barely answer most mons. However, Ho-oh has been seeing less and less play (especially as an offensive mon), Eternatus is a significantly better toxic-soaker, and the top threats in the current metagame all dominate toxapex:
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 140-165 (46 - 54.2%) -- 52% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 218-260 (71.7 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Rain: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 156-186 (51.3 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(after a coil, assuming defensive zyg. Ddance zyg with attack investment does even better.)
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 218-260 (71.7 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Rain: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 156-186 (51.3 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(after a coil, assuming defensive zyg. Ddance zyg with attack investment does even better.)
Hence, there is nearly no reason to run Toxapex over any other wall in the AG metagame.
Update #2: Announcement
Hi everyone! The council has come together to vote on the current VR in anticipation of Snake playoffs; you may find the results enclosed in this sheet! There's quite a few changes to go through, all of which I'll discuss in a separate post underneath this one. I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank all of our posters that have been contributing to this thread while taking the rules into account! We appreciate your input and encourage you to keep sharing your thoughts.
I'll get to the main purpose of this post: in light of recent metagame developments, I'm introducing the following rule:
You may have already noticed by now that Calyrex-S is rising to S+. As I'll discuss at length later on, this is due to the sheer influence of Nasty Plot + Baton Pass sets. I briefly discussed this with Icemaster, and we've decided that we'll keep this aspect strictly to Calyrex-S in the VR. In other words, don't nominate the likes of Xerneas or Eternatus to S on the basis of them being nigh-impossible to check after Calyrex-S passes a Nasty Plot boost to them.
That is all for now!
Hi everyone! The council has come together to vote on the current VR in anticipation of Snake playoffs; you may find the results enclosed in this sheet! There's quite a few changes to go through, all of which I'll discuss in a separate post underneath this one. I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank all of our posters that have been contributing to this thread while taking the rules into account! We appreciate your input and encourage you to keep sharing your thoughts.
I'll get to the main purpose of this post: in light of recent metagame developments, I'm introducing the following rule:
You may have already noticed by now that Calyrex-S is rising to S+. As I'll discuss at length later on, this is due to the sheer influence of Nasty Plot + Baton Pass sets. I briefly discussed this with Icemaster, and we've decided that we'll keep this aspect strictly to Calyrex-S in the VR. In other words, don't nominate the likes of Xerneas or Eternatus to S on the basis of them being nigh-impossible to check after Calyrex-S passes a Nasty Plot boost to them.
That is all for now!
Last edited by a moderator:
Update #2: Reasoning
RISES
:calyrex-shadow: S to S+
:kyogre: S- to S
:zacian-crowned: S- to S
:necrozma-dusk-mane: A+ to S-
:groudon: A to A+
:marshadow: A- to A
:lunala: B+ to A-
:gothitelle: B to A-
:shuckle: B to B+
:kyurem-white: C to B+
:mewtwo: C to B-
:grimmsnarl: D to C
:regieleki: D to C
:landorus-therian: UR to C
:chansey: UR to D
:ss/calyrex-shadow:
After already shaping AG around its Speed tier and power level since the second it was released, Calyrex-S has now managed to redefine the overall ceiling of the metagame by virtue of its Nasty Plot + Baton Pass set. With Necrozma-DM and Eternatus's nigh-mandatory status in the metagame, Calyrex-S has no issues setting up Nasty Plot boosts and forcing its only check in bulky Yveltal into battle. Calyrex-S can proceed to use this scenario to its advantage by using Baton Pass to bring out one of Eternatus, Xerneas, or offensive Yveltal. These three recipients are notoriously difficult to handle from a standalone perspective already, let alone with a Nasty Plot boost under their belt. This puts the opponent into a majorly disadvantageous situation, if not outright ending the match on the spot. Yveltal may still try to maintain some sort of momentum by using U-turn into the Baton Pass, but must risk being taken out by a Life Orb boosted Max Starfall in its attempt to do that, which also puts the Calyrex-S player at a great advantage. Given the recent popularity of these sets on all sorts of balanced and hyper offesive teams, as well as the fact that Calyrex-S is multidimensionally warping the metagame around itself with them, we have really come to a halt with respect to innovating sufficient counterplay to this Pokemon. This unimaginable grip is met with a rise to the uppermost echelon of the viability rankings.
:ss/zacian-crowned::ss/kyogre:
Kyogre and Zacian-C are showing no signs of relenting any part of their grip either, becoming progressively harder to deal with as the days pass instead. Kyogre has massively shaken up its pool of checks with its RestTalk + Sheer Cold set, finding ubiquitous opportunities to fish for the OHKO on traditional checks in Ferrothorn and Eternatus with its great natural bulk and ability to use lots of passive Pokemon as bait. The sheer volatility of this set is incredibly hard to contain and faces to true counterplay other than Kyurem-W. Zacian-C hasn't undergone any significant set changes, but continues to exert non-negligible pressure on the metagame between its Assurance and Swords Dance sets preying on superglues in Yveltal and Eternatus. Both deservedly rise to S as a result.
:ss/necrozma-dusk-mane:
Necrozma-DM is still close to mandatory on any team and it looks like that isn't about to change despite Calyrex-S's reign. The ability to check Zacian-C and Xerneas on top of compressing Stealth Rock support is simply not reproduceable by any other Pokemon. On top of that, Necrozma-DM is capable of disrupting many of its switch-ins in Groudon, Zekrom, Eternatus, and Ferrothorn with the ever-spammable Knock Off, making it a great deal less passive than one would expect. These qualities put it above its previous rankmates in A+ fair and square.
:ss/groudon:
Despite its mediocre output in Snake so far, Groudon still rises a rank due to being impossible to wall outside of Lunala; even bulky Zygarde is almost always OHKOed by a Swords Dance- and Life Orb-boosted Max Quake. It is by far and away the most explosive means of taking advantage of Necrozma-DM, which is pretty important given the mandatory nature of the latter. Groudon + Zacian-C teams have been one of the faces of our metagame since as early as Kickoffs, making this a long-overdue rise.
:ss/marshadow:
Marshadow has recently picked up as a dangerous anti-meta wallbreaker, late-game cleaner, and wincon. Jolly Bulk Up variants are incredibly difficult to manage with the majority of Zacian-C not running enough Speed for it. Combine this with the fact that Calyrex-S is easily OHKOed by Shadow Sneak, and you're looking at the Pokemon that is actually in charge of Speed tiers in the current metagame. This forms a deadly combination with Marshadow's enormous wallbreaking prowess and ability to use Dynamax to its fullest potential. Most notably, Marshadow is capable of KOing Eternatus, which really is the best form of Marshadow-'counterplay' players are currently incorporating into their teams, after Stealth Rock damage and a Bulk Up boost with Max Phantasm in the majority of instances. Moreover, the amount of leeway Marshadow gets due to its unresisted STAB combination is pretty noteworthy as well, letting it just as well run surprise-techs such as Rock Tomb for Yveltal and Ho-Oh or Ice Punch for Yveltal, Zygarde, and Eternatus to pave the path for itself or a teammate. All of this amounts to a justified rise.
:ss/lunala:
Lunala reclaims its previous spot on the viability rankings due to a multitude of factors. Firstly, Lunala is the only realistic and sufficient check to ginormous threats in Groudon, Zekrom, and Zygarde-C. This in itself is a very valuable niche that cannot be provided even remotely by anything else. Lunala boasts another crucial characteristic on top of that: it is immune to Shadow Tag. With Gothitelle surging in viability lately, this cannot be taken lightly. Combine all of this with the fact that Lunala can free up Yveltal's moveslot by running Defog itself and the fact that Tyranitar is nowhere to be seen these days, and it's not hard to see why bulky Lunala is a lot more affordable currently. Beyond its defensive set, Lunala has also made a splash as an offensive threat, distinguishing itself from Calyrex-S with the ability to lure and KO both Yveltal and Ho-Oh with Power Herb + Meteor Beam or Max Rockfall, and with its defensive uses.
:ss/gothitelle:
As touched upon briefly in the reasoning for Lunala's rise, Gothitelle is once again proving that it cannot be taken lightly at all. The nature of current teams is really favorable for Gothitelle, between both Necrozma-DM and Eternatus or Ferrothorn featuring on the overmajority of them and being trapped fairly easily. This makes Gothitelle a potent tool of progress-making, subjecting the opponent to an inevitable game of guesswork that is never in their favor. There really is no other Pokemon capable of guaranteeing progress in such a fool-proof fashion, which leads to a rise all the way to A-.
:ss/kyurem-white:
Kyurem-W rises a stunning total of no less than three subranks. This is due to the realization of just how incredible Sheer Cold is and goes both ways. On one hand, Kyurem-W is a great abuser of Sheer Cold, finding opportunities to fire off multiple of them by forcing out popular Pokemon such as Kyogre, Yveltal, and Zygarde-C. On the other hand, Kyurem-W is also the best check to Sheer Cold Kyogre due to Ice-types being immune to the move. Beyond that, Kyurem-W is also just a great check to Kyogre on the whole, stomaching attacks from both Choice Scarf and Choice Specs variants with Utility Umbrella and forcing out Calm Mind variants with Sheer Cold or Dragon Tail.
:ss/mewtwo:
Mewtwo has more potential than it is often credited for, being more than capable of busting through the tried-and-true core of Yveltal + Necrozma-DM + Eternatus with its stallbreaking Taunt + Will-O-Wisp + Recover sets or the combination of Nasty Plot-boosted Psystrike, Fire Blast or Shadow Ball, and Ice Beam or Thunder. The fact that most Zacian-C aren't fast enough to outspeed Mewtwo currently definitely adds up to its potential. Despite the popularity of Calyrex-S, we believed this was enough to salvage it from the C-ranks for now.
:ss/shuckle: :ss/regieleki: :ss/grimmsnarl:
Hyper offense, whether that be standard Shuckle + Rapid Spin Regieleki Sticky Web or Dual Screens, continues to shine in the metagame due to the continued absence of Ditto and the constricted nature of the metagame making it very easy to counteract a majority of current builds with offensive overload. All of Shuckle, Regieleki, and Grimmsnarl rise as a result.
:ss/landorus-therian:
Landorus-T is a fairly underrated Dynamax sweeper on hyper offense, boasting an incredibly strong Max Airstream after a Swords Dance boost. With Intimidate, it can pretty easily use Pokemon such as Necrozma-DM, Zekrom, and Ferrothorn as setup bait. The fact that it isn't prone to Ditto lacking the ability to Dynamax due to Fly's two-turn nature is pretty noteworthy for hyper offensive teams as well, despite Ditto not being a common sight. Beyond all that, Landorus-T can also provide solid utility in Stealth Rock or Explosion support, and can act as a clutch soft-check to Groudon. It carves out a spot in C as a result.
:ss/chansey:
Chansey is being reranked once again on the basis of its niche as a Xerneas check on stall teams that forgo Necrozma-DM for Quagsire. There's not a lot more to say beyond this.
DROPS
:zygarde-complete: S- to A+
:tyranitar: A- to B
:blissey: B+ to B
:giratina: B to B-
:lugia: B to B-
:dracovish: B- to C
:rayquaza: B- to C
:shedinja: C to D
:amoonguss: D to UR
:mew: D to UR
:umbreon: D to UR
:ss/zygarde-complete:
Zygarde-C drops a subrank due to Dragon Dance sets not being as defining anymore as they once were. This is due to the rise of two of its best checks; Rest Kyogre continues to enjoy immense popularity as a powerful wincon and Lunala has risen back to staple-status once again too. However, Coil sets are still really threatening and flexible presences, being great wincons on top of providing Glare support if needed. Dragon Dance sets should not be disregarded all of a sudden either, as they can still bust their way through Kyogre after forcing it to use Rest or with a few well-timed uses of Dragon Tail in conjunction with entry hazards. As a result, Zygarde-C finds itself a comfortable spot in A+ for now.
:ss/tyranitar::ss/blissey:
Neither Tyranitar nor Blissey are realistically affordable on the overmajority of teams. Tyranitar is just too much of a liability between an overreliance on Rest and Sand Stream hindering Necrozma-DM greatly. Blissey is uncomfortably passive in many instances, and detests Kyogre running Sheer Cold more and more often.
:ss/giratina::ss/lugia:
Giratina and Lugia drop a rank due to bulky balances and stall teams not being representative of the metagame. Both are too passive to fit on any other playstyle. On top of that, Lugia is directly outclassed by Lunala in nearly everything it may attempt to do, and can realistically only go lower from here.
:ss/dracovish::ss/rayquaza:
Dracovish and Rayquaza have no realistic merit either. Dracovish really struggles to carve out a niche over Kyogre and Rayquaza faces fierce competition from just about any popular wallbreaker in any playstyle. Both provide next to no notable utility either, which further diminishes their chances at relevancy.
:ss/shedinja:
While Shedinja may appear to be appealing as a counter to Kyogre and Xerneas, the reality of the matter is that this isn't too notable of a niche that cannot be patched up sufficiently by much better Pokemon on just about any team or archetype. Dragon Dance Zygarde-C occasionally running Toxic and the fact that Shedinja always has to be on edge about Rocky Helmet Necrozma-DM if forgoing Poltergeist does no favors to it either.
:ss/amoonguss::ss/mew::ss/umbreon:
None of these are realistically ever worth using. Amoonguss fails to check what it's supposed to check, i.e. Xerneas and Kyogre. Mew may seem appealing on hyper offense due to its access to moves such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Misty Explosion, but Spikes aren't in any demand on current hyper offensive builds. Umbreon may seem to have a niche in being somewhat of a check to Calyrex-S and Wish + Heal Bell support, but the teams that may find use in those niches are rarely ever seen.
UNDECIDED
:yveltal: S or S+
:ss/yveltal:
If you were to look at the slate, you'd see that Yveltal's rank was left undecided; half of us voted for S+ and the remaining half voted for S. Even after extensive discussions, the council wasn't able to reach consensus on Yveltal's place in the tier. Some of us argued that between its comically inflated usage in Snake combined with its sheer versatility and potency as an offensive threat, S+ was a realistic placement. Others argued that, while Yveltal definitely is a necessity on nearly everything, bulky sets are pretty passive overall and don't do a whole lot outside of checking Calyrex-S, while offensive sets, while flexible and potent, do not match up against Baton Pass Calyrex-S either. I've left Yveltal at S for now, with the caveat of bringing it up as a discussion point in the thread. If you believe you can make a convincing case for either rank, you should feel more than free to drop your thoughts in this thread!
RISES
:calyrex-shadow: S to S+
:kyogre: S- to S
:zacian-crowned: S- to S
:necrozma-dusk-mane: A+ to S-
:groudon: A to A+
:marshadow: A- to A
:lunala: B+ to A-
:gothitelle: B to A-
:shuckle: B to B+
:kyurem-white: C to B+
:mewtwo: C to B-
:grimmsnarl: D to C
:regieleki: D to C
:landorus-therian: UR to C
:chansey: UR to D
:ss/calyrex-shadow:
After already shaping AG around its Speed tier and power level since the second it was released, Calyrex-S has now managed to redefine the overall ceiling of the metagame by virtue of its Nasty Plot + Baton Pass set. With Necrozma-DM and Eternatus's nigh-mandatory status in the metagame, Calyrex-S has no issues setting up Nasty Plot boosts and forcing its only check in bulky Yveltal into battle. Calyrex-S can proceed to use this scenario to its advantage by using Baton Pass to bring out one of Eternatus, Xerneas, or offensive Yveltal. These three recipients are notoriously difficult to handle from a standalone perspective already, let alone with a Nasty Plot boost under their belt. This puts the opponent into a majorly disadvantageous situation, if not outright ending the match on the spot. Yveltal may still try to maintain some sort of momentum by using U-turn into the Baton Pass, but must risk being taken out by a Life Orb boosted Max Starfall in its attempt to do that, which also puts the Calyrex-S player at a great advantage. Given the recent popularity of these sets on all sorts of balanced and hyper offesive teams, as well as the fact that Calyrex-S is multidimensionally warping the metagame around itself with them, we have really come to a halt with respect to innovating sufficient counterplay to this Pokemon. This unimaginable grip is met with a rise to the uppermost echelon of the viability rankings.
:ss/zacian-crowned::ss/kyogre:
Kyogre and Zacian-C are showing no signs of relenting any part of their grip either, becoming progressively harder to deal with as the days pass instead. Kyogre has massively shaken up its pool of checks with its RestTalk + Sheer Cold set, finding ubiquitous opportunities to fish for the OHKO on traditional checks in Ferrothorn and Eternatus with its great natural bulk and ability to use lots of passive Pokemon as bait. The sheer volatility of this set is incredibly hard to contain and faces to true counterplay other than Kyurem-W. Zacian-C hasn't undergone any significant set changes, but continues to exert non-negligible pressure on the metagame between its Assurance and Swords Dance sets preying on superglues in Yveltal and Eternatus. Both deservedly rise to S as a result.
:ss/necrozma-dusk-mane:
Necrozma-DM is still close to mandatory on any team and it looks like that isn't about to change despite Calyrex-S's reign. The ability to check Zacian-C and Xerneas on top of compressing Stealth Rock support is simply not reproduceable by any other Pokemon. On top of that, Necrozma-DM is capable of disrupting many of its switch-ins in Groudon, Zekrom, Eternatus, and Ferrothorn with the ever-spammable Knock Off, making it a great deal less passive than one would expect. These qualities put it above its previous rankmates in A+ fair and square.
:ss/groudon:
Despite its mediocre output in Snake so far, Groudon still rises a rank due to being impossible to wall outside of Lunala; even bulky Zygarde is almost always OHKOed by a Swords Dance- and Life Orb-boosted Max Quake. It is by far and away the most explosive means of taking advantage of Necrozma-DM, which is pretty important given the mandatory nature of the latter. Groudon + Zacian-C teams have been one of the faces of our metagame since as early as Kickoffs, making this a long-overdue rise.
:ss/marshadow:
Marshadow has recently picked up as a dangerous anti-meta wallbreaker, late-game cleaner, and wincon. Jolly Bulk Up variants are incredibly difficult to manage with the majority of Zacian-C not running enough Speed for it. Combine this with the fact that Calyrex-S is easily OHKOed by Shadow Sneak, and you're looking at the Pokemon that is actually in charge of Speed tiers in the current metagame. This forms a deadly combination with Marshadow's enormous wallbreaking prowess and ability to use Dynamax to its fullest potential. Most notably, Marshadow is capable of KOing Eternatus, which really is the best form of Marshadow-'counterplay' players are currently incorporating into their teams, after Stealth Rock damage and a Bulk Up boost with Max Phantasm in the majority of instances. Moreover, the amount of leeway Marshadow gets due to its unresisted STAB combination is pretty noteworthy as well, letting it just as well run surprise-techs such as Rock Tomb for Yveltal and Ho-Oh or Ice Punch for Yveltal, Zygarde, and Eternatus to pave the path for itself or a teammate. All of this amounts to a justified rise.
:ss/lunala:
Lunala reclaims its previous spot on the viability rankings due to a multitude of factors. Firstly, Lunala is the only realistic and sufficient check to ginormous threats in Groudon, Zekrom, and Zygarde-C. This in itself is a very valuable niche that cannot be provided even remotely by anything else. Lunala boasts another crucial characteristic on top of that: it is immune to Shadow Tag. With Gothitelle surging in viability lately, this cannot be taken lightly. Combine all of this with the fact that Lunala can free up Yveltal's moveslot by running Defog itself and the fact that Tyranitar is nowhere to be seen these days, and it's not hard to see why bulky Lunala is a lot more affordable currently. Beyond its defensive set, Lunala has also made a splash as an offensive threat, distinguishing itself from Calyrex-S with the ability to lure and KO both Yveltal and Ho-Oh with Power Herb + Meteor Beam or Max Rockfall, and with its defensive uses.
:ss/gothitelle:
As touched upon briefly in the reasoning for Lunala's rise, Gothitelle is once again proving that it cannot be taken lightly at all. The nature of current teams is really favorable for Gothitelle, between both Necrozma-DM and Eternatus or Ferrothorn featuring on the overmajority of them and being trapped fairly easily. This makes Gothitelle a potent tool of progress-making, subjecting the opponent to an inevitable game of guesswork that is never in their favor. There really is no other Pokemon capable of guaranteeing progress in such a fool-proof fashion, which leads to a rise all the way to A-.
:ss/kyurem-white:
Kyurem-W rises a stunning total of no less than three subranks. This is due to the realization of just how incredible Sheer Cold is and goes both ways. On one hand, Kyurem-W is a great abuser of Sheer Cold, finding opportunities to fire off multiple of them by forcing out popular Pokemon such as Kyogre, Yveltal, and Zygarde-C. On the other hand, Kyurem-W is also the best check to Sheer Cold Kyogre due to Ice-types being immune to the move. Beyond that, Kyurem-W is also just a great check to Kyogre on the whole, stomaching attacks from both Choice Scarf and Choice Specs variants with Utility Umbrella and forcing out Calm Mind variants with Sheer Cold or Dragon Tail.
:ss/mewtwo:
Mewtwo has more potential than it is often credited for, being more than capable of busting through the tried-and-true core of Yveltal + Necrozma-DM + Eternatus with its stallbreaking Taunt + Will-O-Wisp + Recover sets or the combination of Nasty Plot-boosted Psystrike, Fire Blast or Shadow Ball, and Ice Beam or Thunder. The fact that most Zacian-C aren't fast enough to outspeed Mewtwo currently definitely adds up to its potential. Despite the popularity of Calyrex-S, we believed this was enough to salvage it from the C-ranks for now.
:ss/shuckle: :ss/regieleki: :ss/grimmsnarl:
Hyper offense, whether that be standard Shuckle + Rapid Spin Regieleki Sticky Web or Dual Screens, continues to shine in the metagame due to the continued absence of Ditto and the constricted nature of the metagame making it very easy to counteract a majority of current builds with offensive overload. All of Shuckle, Regieleki, and Grimmsnarl rise as a result.
:ss/landorus-therian:
Landorus-T is a fairly underrated Dynamax sweeper on hyper offense, boasting an incredibly strong Max Airstream after a Swords Dance boost. With Intimidate, it can pretty easily use Pokemon such as Necrozma-DM, Zekrom, and Ferrothorn as setup bait. The fact that it isn't prone to Ditto lacking the ability to Dynamax due to Fly's two-turn nature is pretty noteworthy for hyper offensive teams as well, despite Ditto not being a common sight. Beyond all that, Landorus-T can also provide solid utility in Stealth Rock or Explosion support, and can act as a clutch soft-check to Groudon. It carves out a spot in C as a result.
:ss/chansey:
Chansey is being reranked once again on the basis of its niche as a Xerneas check on stall teams that forgo Necrozma-DM for Quagsire. There's not a lot more to say beyond this.
DROPS
:zygarde-complete: S- to A+
:tyranitar: A- to B
:blissey: B+ to B
:giratina: B to B-
:lugia: B to B-
:dracovish: B- to C
:rayquaza: B- to C
:shedinja: C to D
:amoonguss: D to UR
:mew: D to UR
:umbreon: D to UR
:ss/zygarde-complete:
Zygarde-C drops a subrank due to Dragon Dance sets not being as defining anymore as they once were. This is due to the rise of two of its best checks; Rest Kyogre continues to enjoy immense popularity as a powerful wincon and Lunala has risen back to staple-status once again too. However, Coil sets are still really threatening and flexible presences, being great wincons on top of providing Glare support if needed. Dragon Dance sets should not be disregarded all of a sudden either, as they can still bust their way through Kyogre after forcing it to use Rest or with a few well-timed uses of Dragon Tail in conjunction with entry hazards. As a result, Zygarde-C finds itself a comfortable spot in A+ for now.
:ss/tyranitar::ss/blissey:
Neither Tyranitar nor Blissey are realistically affordable on the overmajority of teams. Tyranitar is just too much of a liability between an overreliance on Rest and Sand Stream hindering Necrozma-DM greatly. Blissey is uncomfortably passive in many instances, and detests Kyogre running Sheer Cold more and more often.
:ss/giratina::ss/lugia:
Giratina and Lugia drop a rank due to bulky balances and stall teams not being representative of the metagame. Both are too passive to fit on any other playstyle. On top of that, Lugia is directly outclassed by Lunala in nearly everything it may attempt to do, and can realistically only go lower from here.
:ss/dracovish::ss/rayquaza:
Dracovish and Rayquaza have no realistic merit either. Dracovish really struggles to carve out a niche over Kyogre and Rayquaza faces fierce competition from just about any popular wallbreaker in any playstyle. Both provide next to no notable utility either, which further diminishes their chances at relevancy.
:ss/shedinja:
While Shedinja may appear to be appealing as a counter to Kyogre and Xerneas, the reality of the matter is that this isn't too notable of a niche that cannot be patched up sufficiently by much better Pokemon on just about any team or archetype. Dragon Dance Zygarde-C occasionally running Toxic and the fact that Shedinja always has to be on edge about Rocky Helmet Necrozma-DM if forgoing Poltergeist does no favors to it either.
:ss/amoonguss::ss/mew::ss/umbreon:
None of these are realistically ever worth using. Amoonguss fails to check what it's supposed to check, i.e. Xerneas and Kyogre. Mew may seem appealing on hyper offense due to its access to moves such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Misty Explosion, but Spikes aren't in any demand on current hyper offensive builds. Umbreon may seem to have a niche in being somewhat of a check to Calyrex-S and Wish + Heal Bell support, but the teams that may find use in those niches are rarely ever seen.
UNDECIDED
:yveltal: S or S+
:ss/yveltal:
If you were to look at the slate, you'd see that Yveltal's rank was left undecided; half of us voted for S+ and the remaining half voted for S. Even after extensive discussions, the council wasn't able to reach consensus on Yveltal's place in the tier. Some of us argued that between its comically inflated usage in Snake combined with its sheer versatility and potency as an offensive threat, S+ was a realistic placement. Others argued that, while Yveltal definitely is a necessity on nearly everything, bulky sets are pretty passive overall and don't do a whole lot outside of checking Calyrex-S, while offensive sets, while flexible and potent, do not match up against Baton Pass Calyrex-S either. I've left Yveltal at S for now, with the caveat of bringing it up as a discussion point in the thread. If you believe you can make a convincing case for either rank, you should feel more than free to drop your thoughts in this thread!
:regieleki:-> B-
Regieleki is very good at setting up screens. Though there are mons like Grimmsnarl that have prankster and usually go first, Grimmsnarl does not do good at attacking. Regieleki is capable of attacking mons and doing a good amount of damage. If Grimmsnarl would want to attack it would most likely attack last because it is very slow. Regieleki is the faster mon in the game allowing it to move fast no matter what it is doing. Regieleki also has rapid spin, allowing it to take out any hazards that can hurt your teams such as webs or stealth rock. Grimmsnarl also has problems against dark types. Since it relies on prankster it can't use thunder wave to mons like Yveltal, forcing it to either attack or set up screens. Yes, Regieleki does have problems against Groudon or Zygarde but there is a simple solution. Don't put it out first. Most people expect eleki to come out first meaning that they will put out Groudon or Zygarde first, allowing you to get the upper hand and destroy those mons so that you Regieleki can set up safely. Here are some calcs:
:ss/regieleki:
But Regieleki is not only used for screens, it can also be used as a rising voltage electric terrain sweeper. Most of the time you can get electric terrain from a Tapu-Koko, or you can Dynamax and use an electric type move. Again, if you are afraid of any ground type, let them come out first and kill them. Regieleki can easily sweep mons using rising voltage if there is electric terrain out. One of its only weaknesses is ditto and that is a major problem, in that case, your only solution is a ground type mon. This set does require a Tapu-Koko or Dyna and uses max lightning which is slightly annoying but if you can fit that into a team that can work amazingly. Here are some calcs:
So as you can see the calcs for both sets are good especially the rising voltage set. Regieleki is capable of sweeping with rising voltage or set up screens and do some damage. This mon is capable of doing both in one set unlike mons like grimmsnarl who can only set up screens. This mon is the fastest in the game, has a good special attack, and would do pretty good in a Dyna. Its only main weakness is ditto and ground type mons but again as I stated you can wait those mons out until they die. This mon is amazing and I think it should be B-
B-
:ss/regieleki:
Regieleki @ Light Clay/Focus sash
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Cage
- Reflect
- Rapid Spin
- Light Screen
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Cage
- Reflect
- Rapid Spin
- Light Screen
:zacian-crowned:+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Regieleki through Reflect: 142-168 (47 - 55.6%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO
being attacked:zacian-crowned: 252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunder Cage vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 160-189 (49 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
being attacked:kyogre: 252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunder Cage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage (since you are guaranteed to go the first kyogre will have less health meaning that I can't calc the kyogre attacking.)
:yveltal: 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Regieleki through Light Screen: 215-254 (71.1 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
being attacked:yveltal: 252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunder Cage vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 408-480 (103.8 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:calyrex-shadow: 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Regieleki through Light Screen: 264-311 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
being attacked :calyrex-shadow: 252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunder Cage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 178-211 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
being attacked:zacian-crowned: 252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunder Cage vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 160-189 (49 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
being attacked:kyogre: 252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunder Cage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage (since you are guaranteed to go the first kyogre will have less health meaning that I can't calc the kyogre attacking.)
:yveltal: 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Regieleki through Light Screen: 215-254 (71.1 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
being attacked:yveltal: 252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunder Cage vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 408-480 (103.8 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:calyrex-shadow: 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Regieleki through Light Screen: 264-311 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
being attacked :calyrex-shadow: 252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunder Cage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 178-211 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
Regieleki @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Rash Nature
- Thunder
- Ancient power
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Rash Nature
- Thunder
- Ancient power
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch
:zacian-crowned: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 543-639 (166.5 - 196%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:kyogre: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre in Electric Terrain: 914-1076 (268 - 315.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:yveltal: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal in Electric Terrain: 620-732 (157.7 - 186.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Electric Terrain: 565-666 (141.9 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:calyrex-shadow: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow in Electric Terrain: 609-717 (178.5 - 210.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:regieleki: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Regieleki in Electric Terrain: 590-694 (196 - 230.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:kyogre: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre in Electric Terrain: 914-1076 (268 - 315.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:yveltal: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal in Electric Terrain: 620-732 (157.7 - 186.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Electric Terrain: 565-666 (141.9 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:calyrex-shadow: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow in Electric Terrain: 609-717 (178.5 - 210.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:regieleki: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Regieleki in Electric Terrain: 590-694 (196 - 230.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
B-
:ss/regieleki:
:palkia: ---> B+
Seems like this was suggested earlier on in the meta, and I think that it might be time for it to drop. Palkia is a good mon still, but I don't think that it's on the level of the other A- mons and is quite outclassed generally rn. As of making this post, Palkia has 0 usage in the regular season of snake, and I think deserves the fall now that it's been proven to not be on the same level of those other mons. Additionally, with the rise of Kyurem-White to that same B+ rank and the dominance of Eternatus as a Kyogre check, I think Palkia just falls short and should be at best on par with Kyurem-White.
:ditto: ---> A-
This may be a stretch here, but I think Ditto is really good in the current meta. It keeps a ton of things in check, and is able to provide an insane amount of backup support for a team. If a wall goes down for one mon like an Yveltal getting dyna'd on by Calyrex, ditto discourages and punishes that while being able to revenge kill almost every set up mon barring a few that are Dynamaxed and even some that are, and some like CM Kyogre and Zygarde off the top of my head. When some of the best mons are Calyrex-S, Zacian-C, and Yveltal which can run offensive that have very few checks, I think Ditto is amazing in pretty much every game. It did drop 2 months ago, but I think with it's positive winrate and top 10 usage looking back at the snake regular season it should go back and rise up to A- which it skipped in the drop.
Seems like this was suggested earlier on in the meta, and I think that it might be time for it to drop. Palkia is a good mon still, but I don't think that it's on the level of the other A- mons and is quite outclassed generally rn. As of making this post, Palkia has 0 usage in the regular season of snake, and I think deserves the fall now that it's been proven to not be on the same level of those other mons. Additionally, with the rise of Kyurem-White to that same B+ rank and the dominance of Eternatus as a Kyogre check, I think Palkia just falls short and should be at best on par with Kyurem-White.
:ditto: ---> A-
This may be a stretch here, but I think Ditto is really good in the current meta. It keeps a ton of things in check, and is able to provide an insane amount of backup support for a team. If a wall goes down for one mon like an Yveltal getting dyna'd on by Calyrex, ditto discourages and punishes that while being able to revenge kill almost every set up mon barring a few that are Dynamaxed and even some that are, and some like CM Kyogre and Zygarde off the top of my head. When some of the best mons are Calyrex-S, Zacian-C, and Yveltal which can run offensive that have very few checks, I think Ditto is amazing in pretty much every game. It did drop 2 months ago, but I think with it's positive winrate and top 10 usage looking back at the snake regular season it should go back and rise up to A- which it skipped in the drop.
I have an interesting nom for y'all today:
:Mandibuzz: --> D
This mon may seem like it's outclassed by Yveltal defensively, but it has one niche, with Whirlwind in its movepool. This move is important because it allows Mandibuzz to neutralize a threat that Yveltal can not: Baton Pass Calyrex.
Even without Dark Aura, Mandibuzz has a favorable roll with Foul Play, and can OHKO with Knock Off:
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 328-388 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While it is more frail than Yveltal, it isn't by much, and can still reliably switch in against Calyrex:
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 125-148 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 127-151 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- 26.8% chance to 3HKO
Without Life Orb, Calyrex can't do much without a Nasty Plot Boost:
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 96-114 (21 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Other than checking Calyrex, it can be a reliable Defogger and use U-Turn, Taunt, Snarl, and Knock Off, in effect fulfilling many roles that Yveltal can fill. Taunt Calyrex is currently uncommon, which is good for Mandibuzz, because this allows it to fulfill its passive roles.
With the prevalence of Calyrex in the current metagame, I believe that Mandibuzz has enough potential to warrant a D rank.
:Mandibuzz: --> D
This mon may seem like it's outclassed by Yveltal defensively, but it has one niche, with Whirlwind in its movepool. This move is important because it allows Mandibuzz to neutralize a threat that Yveltal can not: Baton Pass Calyrex.
Even without Dark Aura, Mandibuzz has a favorable roll with Foul Play, and can OHKO with Knock Off:
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 328-388 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While it is more frail than Yveltal, it isn't by much, and can still reliably switch in against Calyrex:
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 125-148 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 127-151 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- 26.8% chance to 3HKO
Without Life Orb, Calyrex can't do much without a Nasty Plot Boost:
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 96-114 (21 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Other than checking Calyrex, it can be a reliable Defogger and use U-Turn, Taunt, Snarl, and Knock Off, in effect fulfilling many roles that Yveltal can fill. Taunt Calyrex is currently uncommon, which is good for Mandibuzz, because this allows it to fulfill its passive roles.
With the prevalence of Calyrex in the current metagame, I believe that Mandibuzz has enough potential to warrant a D rank.
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While I do agree with you that Mandi has a niche in whirlwind, I don't feel that it's enough for a reasonable change from Yveltal. Even offensive Yveltal checks Calyrex-S, and can become a threatening dmax sweeper - one thing Mandi can't do. Yes, of course, it works better for Baton Pass, but I don't think specifically Baton Pass Calyrex-S is used enough to warrant a D rating.
And outside of BP Calyrex-S, Mandi doesn't really fulfill any role better than Yvel can.
I'm also just throwing this out here (yes i know special yvel isn't really used anymore, I'm just trying to find some random calc that further proves my point because I'm too lazy to spend hours digging for a relevant calc lol):
252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Max Airstream vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 203-239 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Max Airstream vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 208-246 (49 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
While I typically dislike nominating unranked pokemon to the VR, Zacian-H's absence seems like a gross lacuna. As most wallbreaking sets are outclassed by Zacian-C (Choice Band has a small niche), here I'll focus on the the Choice Scarf set; this set serves as a great form of speed control, while carving its own niche in the metagame.
The given spread outpaces up to a boosted Xerneas; Crunch is needed for Caly-S and you have some flexibility in the last slot - Solar Blade for boosted Groudon or whatever you want really. You can creep a bit more for Modest Scarf Caly or even run max speed for Jolly Excadrill if you wish, but only a few people use these so w/e.
Here are damage rolls against Zacian-C to indicate the amount of chip you need on it for a KO:
+1 252 Atk Zacian Close Combat vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: (47.2 - 55.7%)
+1 252 Atk Zacian Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: (53.5 - 63%) [spdef invest]
+1 252 Atk Zacian Close Combat vs. Ditto: (58 - 68.3%) [imposter on a spdef invest zac-c]
Here are damage rolls against Zacian-C to indicate the amount of chip you need on it for a KO:
+1 252 Atk Zacian Close Combat vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: (47.2 - 55.7%)
+1 252 Atk Zacian Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: (53.5 - 63%) [spdef invest]
+1 252 Atk Zacian Close Combat vs. Ditto: (58 - 68.3%) [imposter on a spdef invest zac-c]
To start I'd like to stress the importance of building with scarfers - in gen 8 AG you simply cannot defensively handle all the relevant threats on balance. Speed control is the primary way to compress counterplay to this variety of offensive threats, and Zac-H checks boosted threats like Yveltal, Zekrom, Marshadow, and offensive Groudon. Finally, in addition to beating non-scarf Caly-S itself, Zac-H threatens all of the usual NP pass recipients. The insurance that scarfers provide against dangerous boosting sweepers also lets you play more aggressively in various matchups.
It's important to contrast the roles played by Zacian-H and the two usual Scarfers of the tier - Caly-S and Ditto.
Caly-S tries to compress speed control and late-game cleanup, while usually Tricking its scarf away in balance matchups. It generally targets the same setup sweepers Zac-H does, but trades its matchup against NDM for Yveltal.
Ditto, on the other hand, is the most common means to gatekeep offensive builds and also generally tries to revenge kill similar targets that Zacian is intended for. But as Ditto has increased sharply in usage, said targets are adapting to it by altering their sets or adjusting their partners - e.g. Outrage or Haban Berry on Zekrom. Zacian-H is capable of revenging these boosted threats without allowing certain partners like Xerneas to set up afterwards, and it also has a generally better matchup against dynamax Yveltal compared to Ditto.
Another key benefit of the two aforementioned Scarfers is their dominance over Sticky Webs teams; using Zacian-H as the scarfer maintains that free matchup. It is faster than every common webs threat even at -1, with the exception of Caly-S. Caly can be defogged on freely with Yveltal, and Zacian threatens most NP pass recipients as well. HO matchups in general are not too difficult with such a fast scarfer.
--------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1274734773
AG Snake game vs webs; as expected Zacian-H wins the game at preview, though this isn't immediately apparent from the replay owing to the Bolt Strike miss.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1294391015-wo9fnxzx42nx0jmodb5u6ipghmuq1oypw
This is a balance matchup against DD dtail zygarde.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1294061860-6b6se0hkkdjm23zlar7ljqtpufoqqcvpw
Ladder replay vs some Ditto balance, where the presence of scarf Zac allows me to freely switch a paralyzed NDM into an assurance Zac-C.
AG Snake game vs webs; as expected Zacian-H wins the game at preview, though this isn't immediately apparent from the replay owing to the Bolt Strike miss.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1294391015-wo9fnxzx42nx0jmodb5u6ipghmuq1oypw
This is a balance matchup against DD dtail zygarde.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1294061860-6b6se0hkkdjm23zlar7ljqtpufoqqcvpw
Ladder replay vs some Ditto balance, where the presence of scarf Zac allows me to freely switch a paralyzed NDM into an assurance Zac-C.
Of course this mon has some very clear drawbacks, which is why it's sometimes overlooked. It can be difficult to fit, and you need solid counterplay to Dragon Dance NDM when using it. Needing substantial chip or a CC drop on Zacian-C to revenge kill it is annoying, though Scarf Caly-S also suffers from this problem to a degree.
(Thankfully, losing momentum against support NDM isn't the end of the world).
Overall, though, Zacian-H is good and absolutely deserves to be ranked; I personally it's better than its prospective compatriots in C (and Mewtwo), but the key importance of scarfers in building isn't a universally held opinion. While I didn't discuss the Choice Band set that much, it's a cool niche wallbreaker that can certainly put in work, especially when it comes to wasting dynamax.
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Hey guys thought I would give my opinons on all the nominations so far as well as give a few of my own and also talk about my opinions that have changed since the last vr update.
Personally I agree with this nomination but not for the reasons that nb stated, imo I personally find Regieleki kinda underwhelming as a screens setter and its specially offensive set really struggles against eternatus and ground types which are on every team. However the physically offensive hazard removal set is what this thing to move up to b-, it forces out defoggers and assurance is able to destroy any ghost type trying to spinblock and even if you try to send out a ground type it will just rapid spin and explode to provide the team momentum. This mon has become a staple on webs teams as well as offensive teams that require hazard control and for that reason I think it deserves to rise.
palkia's lack of reliable recovery makes it a worse overall ogre check than eternatus and kyuw and palkia finds itself a victim to kyogre running sheer cold more often now.
Ditto to check pretty much every offensive mon in the metagame and absolutely destroys offensive teams so I think it deserves to rise.
I haven't tried this yet so my opinon might change but for now I will disagree, it looks like it really struggles to deal with dynamax calyrex as well as being generally worse against the other mons that yveltal checks.
Agree, Zayele has destroyed me with this thing multiple times lmao.
Scarf Zacian hero does a really good job revenge killing a lot of the metagame's top threats such as yveltal, zekrom, and calyrex shadow and absolutely destroys offense so I see no reason why this shouldn't be ranked.
Now time for my own nominations
:Kyurem-Black: --> C
I have became really fond of this thing during this ssnl. When I was building a team around goth I realized that my team needed a solid kyogre check but also need something that could sweep once goth had done its job and Kyub Filled that role really nicely. The kyub team I used went 2-0 in ssnl and has proven to be really solid. Kyub is able to easily beat calm mind kyogre sets while not worrying too much about the choiced varients. Kyub is one few pokemon that can relibaly switch in to choice specs kyoge and threaten to ohko it. Kyub is also an amazing late game cleaner once ndm is removed.
Calcs:
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 290-342 (85 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 162-192 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 222-261 (56.7 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Although this may seem bad kyogre often gets chipped over the course of a game so it won't be dealing max damage much, also spout not killing means that kyub can still switch in and threaten it with fusion bolt)
40 SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-White Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 135-159 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1292339457 (Goth takes out ndm and even though kyub is burned by scarf calyrex it still pulls off the sweep)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1296583408-7nzam92j06bb216fd2uxxkqw09wosi1pw (Kyub just wins after ndm is removed)
:Kyurem-White: --> A-
This is mainly so it just gets swapped with palkia, kyub has proven to be that more consistent and overall better offensive kyogre check
:Yveltal: Stay at S
ok this is one mainly because I changed my mind on yveltal, I originally wanted it to move up to s+ with calyrex as it is completely omnipresent and checks calyrex very well, but with baton pass calyrex becoming more popular and really defining the metagame I think yveltal deserves to stay in S while caly should stay alone is S+
Personally I agree with this nomination but not for the reasons that nb stated, imo I personally find Regieleki kinda underwhelming as a screens setter and its specially offensive set really struggles against eternatus and ground types which are on every team. However the physically offensive hazard removal set is what this thing to move up to b-, it forces out defoggers and assurance is able to destroy any ghost type trying to spinblock and even if you try to send out a ground type it will just rapid spin and explode to provide the team momentum. This mon has become a staple on webs teams as well as offensive teams that require hazard control and for that reason I think it deserves to rise.
I agree with both of these nomination
palkia's lack of reliable recovery makes it a worse overall ogre check than eternatus and kyuw and palkia finds itself a victim to kyogre running sheer cold more often now.
Ditto to check pretty much every offensive mon in the metagame and absolutely destroys offensive teams so I think it deserves to rise.
I haven't tried this yet so my opinon might change but for now I will disagree, it looks like it really struggles to deal with dynamax calyrex as well as being generally worse against the other mons that yveltal checks.
Agree, Zayele has destroyed me with this thing multiple times lmao.
Scarf Zacian hero does a really good job revenge killing a lot of the metagame's top threats such as yveltal, zekrom, and calyrex shadow and absolutely destroys offense so I see no reason why this shouldn't be ranked.
Now time for my own nominations
:Kyurem-Black: --> C
I have became really fond of this thing during this ssnl. When I was building a team around goth I realized that my team needed a solid kyogre check but also need something that could sweep once goth had done its job and Kyub Filled that role really nicely. The kyub team I used went 2-0 in ssnl and has proven to be really solid. Kyub is able to easily beat calm mind kyogre sets while not worrying too much about the choiced varients. Kyub is one few pokemon that can relibaly switch in to choice specs kyoge and threaten to ohko it. Kyub is also an amazing late game cleaner once ndm is removed.
Calcs:
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 290-342 (85 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 162-192 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 222-261 (56.7 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Although this may seem bad kyogre often gets chipped over the course of a game so it won't be dealing max damage much, also spout not killing means that kyub can still switch in and threaten it with fusion bolt)
40 SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-White Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 135-159 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1292339457 (Goth takes out ndm and even though kyub is burned by scarf calyrex it still pulls off the sweep)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1296583408-7nzam92j06bb216fd2uxxkqw09wosi1pw (Kyub just wins after ndm is removed)
:Kyurem-White: --> A-
This is mainly so it just gets swapped with palkia, kyub has proven to be that more consistent and overall better offensive kyogre check
:Yveltal: Stay at S
ok this is one mainly because I changed my mind on yveltal, I originally wanted it to move up to s+ with calyrex as it is completely omnipresent and checks calyrex very well, but with baton pass calyrex becoming more popular and really defining the metagame I think yveltal deserves to stay in S while caly should stay alone is S+
More noms with thoughts from after ssnl in mind
:darmanitan-galar: UR --> C
I think Darmanitan is a legitimately good mon rn. It dislikes the presence of defensive Kyogre but can easily just U-turn out, which it's probably best at doing. It's good speed control that can revenge a lot of things like Zacian-C, Zygarde-C, Calyrex-S, Yveltal, +1 Zekrom and Reshiram, Eternatus, etc. With good prediction it threatens most common defensive cores pretty hard and could honestly see it higher than C, but for now I think that's a good starting point. I think it's better than things like Magearna and way easier to fit on a team, probably comparable to something like Rayquaza but maybe even better, so C+ does seem possible.
:lugia: :giratina: --> D/C respectively
What are these things even doing in the current meta. They both feel like 100% worse Lunala, and being always a worse pick than a commonplace A- tier mon isn't exactly a good role. Lugia is just plain bad, it does nothing to a majoirty of the top threats and can't even deal with most of them 1v1 because Dynamax blocks whirlwind. Similar with Giratina but I could see that being a little higher just because it has pressure and wisp, but still close. Probably Lugia to D and Giratina to C makes the most sense, but Lugia could maybe hold on to C, I just don't really see it currently.
:dracovish: C --> B-/B
Dracovish is insane rn, with pretty much nothing actually beating it. Eternatus doesn't run Phys.def on 95% of teams so that just dies in rain, and it's a super good balance breaker since it breaks literally everything. I think it's clearly a step above most other C mons and should rise as such. It did fall in the last update, but I think it's more than good enough to rise and had some decent showings in seasonal.
:necrozma-dusk-mane: S- --> S
Dropping Necrozma-DM on teams is super hard rn. It's incredibly versatile, useful, and covers so many important roles that it's almost needed on most teams. Checking the offensive fairies is huge rn, and it can also soft check stuff like Zekrom and Eternatus. That combined with how good its support movepool is makes is a really solid defensive pillar for most teams. DD sets are also super solid though, being really hard to take down on HO and even defensive dd sets on balance are nothing short of amazing if you have decent enough Zacian-C counterplay aside from it. Overall I think it's right up there with the S rank stuff in terms of how useful it is and should follow them up there.
:lapras: UR --> C
Losing like 5 mons in ssnl finals to it showed me the light ngl. OHKO moves are broken and that's no surprise, and Lapras is both one of the best abusers and immunities to it. Nothing else takes on Kyurem-W as reliably while also beating Scald from Sheer Cold Kyogre, and it has all of Horn Drill, Sheer Cold, and Fissure, making it much harder to wall than with just 1 Ice-type like Kyurem-W. Really cool pick that has a legit place rn.
:darmanitan-galar: UR --> C
I think Darmanitan is a legitimately good mon rn. It dislikes the presence of defensive Kyogre but can easily just U-turn out, which it's probably best at doing. It's good speed control that can revenge a lot of things like Zacian-C, Zygarde-C, Calyrex-S, Yveltal, +1 Zekrom and Reshiram, Eternatus, etc. With good prediction it threatens most common defensive cores pretty hard and could honestly see it higher than C, but for now I think that's a good starting point. I think it's better than things like Magearna and way easier to fit on a team, probably comparable to something like Rayquaza but maybe even better, so C+ does seem possible.
:lugia: :giratina: --> D/C respectively
What are these things even doing in the current meta. They both feel like 100% worse Lunala, and being always a worse pick than a commonplace A- tier mon isn't exactly a good role. Lugia is just plain bad, it does nothing to a majoirty of the top threats and can't even deal with most of them 1v1 because Dynamax blocks whirlwind. Similar with Giratina but I could see that being a little higher just because it has pressure and wisp, but still close. Probably Lugia to D and Giratina to C makes the most sense, but Lugia could maybe hold on to C, I just don't really see it currently.
:dracovish: C --> B-/B
Dracovish is insane rn, with pretty much nothing actually beating it. Eternatus doesn't run Phys.def on 95% of teams so that just dies in rain, and it's a super good balance breaker since it breaks literally everything. I think it's clearly a step above most other C mons and should rise as such. It did fall in the last update, but I think it's more than good enough to rise and had some decent showings in seasonal.
:necrozma-dusk-mane: S- --> S
Dropping Necrozma-DM on teams is super hard rn. It's incredibly versatile, useful, and covers so many important roles that it's almost needed on most teams. Checking the offensive fairies is huge rn, and it can also soft check stuff like Zekrom and Eternatus. That combined with how good its support movepool is makes is a really solid defensive pillar for most teams. DD sets are also super solid though, being really hard to take down on HO and even defensive dd sets on balance are nothing short of amazing if you have decent enough Zacian-C counterplay aside from it. Overall I think it's right up there with the S rank stuff in terms of how useful it is and should follow them up there.
:lapras: UR --> C
Losing like 5 mons in ssnl finals to it showed me the light ngl. OHKO moves are broken and that's no surprise, and Lapras is both one of the best abusers and immunities to it. Nothing else takes on Kyurem-W as reliably while also beating Scald from Sheer Cold Kyogre, and it has all of Horn Drill, Sheer Cold, and Fissure, making it much harder to wall than with just 1 Ice-type like Kyurem-W. Really cool pick that has a legit place rn.
Eternatus-Eternamax is legal in Anything Goes. This thread will be locked until further notice in order to give room for formulating thoughts on the new metagame.
Update #3: Announcement
Hello again o/
First things first, I would like to welcome our recent seasonal winner Fc to council! Fc has shown to be a very proficient builder and player, as well as a dedicated contributor. I'm sure he will be a valuable asset to our team.
We have decided to push out another update in anticipation of UMPL; you may find the results enclosed in this sheet! As usual, I'll be going through the reasoning for these changes in a separate post underneath this one. You will notice that many of these changes are based on trends during our winter seasonal. You may find the usage stats here.
Thank you to all of our posters that have been contributing to this thread while taking the rules into account. We appreciate your input and encourage you to keep sharing your thoughts!
Here are the changes ~
RISES
:necrozma-dusk-mane: S- to S
:lunala: A- to A
:ditto: B+ to A-
:kyurem-white: B+ to A-
:dracovish: C to B
:grimmsnarl: C to B-
:urshifu: UR to C
:zacian: UR to C
:darmanitan-galar: UR to C
:porygon2: UR to C
:lapras: UR to C
:kyurem-black: UR to D
:solgaleo: UR to D
DROPS
:ho-oh: A to A-
:palkia: A- to B
:reshiram: B to B-
:giratina: B- to C
:lugia: B- to D
Hello again o/
First things first, I would like to welcome our recent seasonal winner Fc to council! Fc has shown to be a very proficient builder and player, as well as a dedicated contributor. I'm sure he will be a valuable asset to our team.
We have decided to push out another update in anticipation of UMPL; you may find the results enclosed in this sheet! As usual, I'll be going through the reasoning for these changes in a separate post underneath this one. You will notice that many of these changes are based on trends during our winter seasonal. You may find the usage stats here.
Thank you to all of our posters that have been contributing to this thread while taking the rules into account. We appreciate your input and encourage you to keep sharing your thoughts!
Here are the changes ~
RISES
:necrozma-dusk-mane: S- to S
:lunala: A- to A
:ditto: B+ to A-
:kyurem-white: B+ to A-
:dracovish: C to B
:grimmsnarl: C to B-
:urshifu: UR to C
:zacian: UR to C
:darmanitan-galar: UR to C
:porygon2: UR to C
:lapras: UR to C
:kyurem-black: UR to D
:solgaleo: UR to D
DROPS
:ho-oh: A to A-
:palkia: A- to B
:reshiram: B to B-
:giratina: B- to C
:lugia: B- to D
Last edited by a moderator:
Update #3: Reasoning
RISES
:ss/necrozma-dusk-mane:
Necrozma-DM is the most valuable superglue in the metagame. Forego it on hyper offense, and you're jeopardizing the matchup against Zacian-C and Ditto significantly. Forego it on a balance team, and you have to dedicate multiple slots to a Stealth Rock setter and Pokemon that can check Zacian-C and Xerneas. Even with multiple slots, Necrozma-DM's entire scope of qualities between Stealth Rock setter, Knock Off / status / Zekrom check with Earthquake, Zacian-C check, Xerneas check, and soft-check to half the metagame under Dynamax can never be reproduced by any core. No matter the developments throughout the generation, Necrozma-DM has remained as close to a constant as you can get due to these positives.
It is true that bulky Necrozma-DM comes with a fair few shortcomings. For one, it can be taken advantage of by dangerous presences such as Kyogre, Groudon, Zygarde-C, and Gothitelle. However, Necrozma-DM's ability to make progress with Stealth Rock / Knock Off / status conditions in the face of these suboptimal matchups and its otherworldly resiliency under Dynymax ensures that it hardly ever perishes without having contributed to the outcome of a match to an appreciable extent. Another drawback is Necrozma-DM's inability to properly check Assurance Zacian-C and a healthy Xerneas on its own. Nevertheless, the fact of the matter remains that Necrozma-DM is the most convenient form of counterplay to both of these threats. Besides, Zacian-C and Xerneas will both be worn down to a point where they are restricted by speed control quite easily, should they manage to outhit Necrozma-DM.
Beyond all of that, credit is to be allocated to Necrozma-DM's often overlooked Dragon Dance sets as well, being the terrific winconditions that they are. Ho-Oh's fall has been incredibly advantageous for these sets, freeing up Knock Off or Psychic Fangs over Stone Edge and thereby allowing Necroma-DM to slice through the rising Lunala and the ever-present Kyogre much more easily. Further experimentation with these sets has birthed a dangerous outcome in Life Orb variants as well, which can reach insane benchmarks such as cleanly OHKOing bulky Kyogre at +1 with Max Mindstorm and Lunala with Max Darkness.
We believe these qualities as a whole can only be conveyed properly by ranking Necrozma-DM as an S-rank presence. With this, we are removing S- as a rank.
:ss/lunala:
Lunala continues to flaunt its unique defensive perks as a hard-check to the metagame's hardest-to check threats in Groudon, Necrozma-DM, Zekrom, and Zygarde-C. This makes Lunala the ultimate countermeasure to the wide range of hyper offenses that have been popping up over the course of the past few months, and it evidently shows, letting it amass a great 60% win percentage over 20 uses in the later rounds of the winter seasonal. Lunala's ability to check Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM and Zygarde-C are especially valuable right now; with both of these setup sweepers stepping up the game by running Life Orb more frequently and being very resilient against any Choice Scarf user under Dynamax, there are little to no alternatives as far as reliable counterplay is concerned.
The shift to Eternatus + Yveltal in favor of Ho-Oh cores on pretty much every balance team is of great importance to Lunala's viability as well. Whereas Lunala fails to make much of any meaningful progress against Ho-Oh's Regenerator shenanigans, Eternatus and Yveltal are both crippled pretty harshly by Will-O-Wisp and Hypnosis. All things considered, Lunala breaks new ground by entering A for the first time.
:ss/ditto::ss/zacian::ss/darmanitan-galar:
Choice Scarf users have been at the forefront of the metagame for a long while now, but the experimentation with speed control is yet to cease.
Ditto depicts the relevance of speed control perfectly, coming in at 5th place over the last couple of rounds of the winter seasonal, outranking even Kyogre. As the safest form of speed control that punishes Calyrex-S and Zacian-C more harshly than any other option and does a good job at limiting anything from the nigh unwallable Zekrom to the metagame's most dangerous wincondition in Xerneas to even the top dog in speed tiers in Marshadow, Ditto's enormous recent success is no surprise in a metagame that has been craving for role compression desperately. It reinstates itself as a staple once again as a result.
Zacian and Galarian Darmanitan are some successful products of the aforementioned experimentation with speed control, having great outreach as revenge killers with their colorful coverage. Zacian's great Speed tier allows it to outspeed everything up to +2 Jolly Zekrom and Groudon. Intrepid Sword and Zacian's wide coverage does the rest, with Play Rough taking care of Zekrom, Zygarde-C, Xerneas, Yveltal, and Marshadow, Close Combat finishing off Zacian-C and Excadrill, Crunch OHKOing Calyrex-S, and Solar Blade denting Groudon out of commission. Galarian Darmanitan doesn't reach as much of an impressive Speed tier, but is every bit as effective when it comes to the amount of threats it can finish off, in addition to posing as a respectable, albeit prediction-reliant, wallbreaker. Both make their debut at C.
:ss/kyurem-white::ss/lapras:
Sheer Cold continues to sow the benefits of a centralized metagame, so it's natural for counterplay to rise in viability as well. Funnily enough, Sheer Cold counterplay-options happen to be Sheer Cold users themselves, solidifying their own viability indirectly.
Kyurem-W has established itself as the most reliable check to Kyogre and itself by now, and rises to A- for much of the same reasons as last time. Lapras is a cool tech that takes advantage of Kyurem-W and Sheer Cold Kyogre by firing off OHKO moves, making it a niche yet situationally potent wincondition that is capable of overcoming Sheer Cold immunities with Horn Drill and acting as a status absorber against Eternatus.
:ss/dracovish:
Dracovish has been making waves as an obscenely strong wallbreaker with the discovery of Choice Band sets alongside Thunder Wave Kyogre support to slow shared checks down and boost Fishious Rend with Drizzle. Fishious Rend reaches tremendous benchmarks under Rain, having a chance to OHKO even the likes of Eternatus and Lunala through Shadow Shield on the switch. A Speed tier that outspeeds everything up to bulky Yveltal lends Dracovish the necessary means to make use of this incredible power quite effectively though U-turn support or predictable double switches into Necrozma-DM and Yveltal. Even outside of Rain, Dracovish can easily take down Water-resistant Pokemon with its strong coverage moves; Eternatus is cleanly OHKOed by Dragon Rush after Stealth Rock damage, both Kyurem-W and Palkia are OHKOed by Dragon Rush without any necessary chip damage, and Lunala is crippled severely by Crunch. Dracovish jumps to B as a result of this lack in defined couterplay, and can only go upwards from here.
:ss/grimmsnarl:
Grimmsnarl hyper offenses are on the rise as countermeasures to the increased amounts of speed control on teams, boosting pretty much any traditional wallbreaker and setup sweeper into invincible territories. Necrozma-DM, Groudon, Zekrom, and Xerneas are notable staples on these teams, busting through counterplay and speed control alike with Grimmsnarl's support quite easily. As the catalyst of a dangerous anti-metagame trend, Grimmsnarl rises one subrank.
:ss/urshifu::ss/kyurem-black:
Speaking of wallbreakers and setup sweepers, we have two new ones making their debut in Urshifu and Kyurem-B. Similarly to Dracovish, Choice Band Urshifu doesn't know much of any effective defensive counterplay, taking advantage of the metagame's superglues in Necrozma-DM and Yveltal, cleanly 2HKOing slower Eternatus variants, and hitting everything bar the extremely niche bulky Xerneas for great amounts of damage between Wicked Blow and Close Combat. Sucker Punch and U-turn add a valuable touch of utility as well, letting Urshifu serve as a clutch revenge killer against the likes of Necrozma-DM and Calyrex-S, as well as preserving momentum in situations where it doesn't want to guess between Wicked Blow and Close Combat. Kyurem-B is a potent setup sweeper with Gothitelle support that can soft-check both Zygarde-C and Kyogre between Icicle Spear and Fusion Bolt, and act as a Sheer Cold absorber. Urshifu carves out a spot in C, whereas Kyurem-B will be modestly residing in D for now.
:ss/porygon2::ss/solgaleo:
To wrap up the rises, we have a pair of niche defensive picks finding a spot in the VR for the first time. Porygon2 does so courtesy of being a respectable check to Calyrex-S and Zygarde-C while offering Teleport support. Similarly, Solgaleo's access to Teleport allows it to form a tiny niche over Necrozma-DM. They will be ranked at C and D, respectively.
DROPS
:ss/ho-oh:
Ho-Oh has been very hard to justify for a very long while now, not really adding much of any value outside of strengthening the matchup against Spikes and Xerneas, pivoting into Choice Scarf / Choice Specs Calyrex-S and Zacian-C occasionally, and sponging some Dynamax turns from a few Pokemon at best. At worst, Ho-Oh is shut down by Eternatus and Ditto throughout an entire match and serves as bait for Kyogre, Zygarde-C, Zekrom, and Groudon. Ho-Oh doesn't convincingly check anything of note on its own, and it is this unfortunate fact that renders Ho-Oh an evident luxury in the metagame that is only really valuable for freeing up more offensive Yveltal sets on balance teams. The fact that Ho-Oh saw two uses from round 8 onwards in the winter seasonal, and won none of those matches is a pretty clear sign of its demise as well. As a result, Ho-Oh hits an all-time low by dropping to A-.
:ss/palkia::ss/reshiram:
Palkia and Reshiram have been outshadowed for ages by now. While both are still pretty respectable wallbreakers, Palkia simply doesn't cut it as a long-term wincondition between its tendency to get worn down by entry hazards, losing Leftovers to Knock Off, getting poisoned or dented by Dynamax Cannon whenever it tries to take on Eternatus, and failing to reliably break through bulky Yveltal without Rain support. Reshiram, similarly, is worn down alarmingly easily due to Stealth Rock damage and Flare Blitz plus Life Orb recoil, making it very dependant on Dynamax to put in work for extended amounts of time. Given as speed control usage is at an all-time high, this results in Reshiram being one of the easiest threats to revenge kill, making it inferior to many other setup sweepers.
:ss/giratina::ss/lugia:
Giratina and Lugia suffer under Lunala's reign as the premier physical wall. Giratina still differentiates itself as a Defogger with Pressure and thus manages to cling onto a C-ranking, but Lugia is utterly and hopelessly outclassed by Lunala in anything it may hope to accomplish other than being slightly more of an obstacle to Zacian-C.
RISES
:ss/necrozma-dusk-mane:
Necrozma-DM is the most valuable superglue in the metagame. Forego it on hyper offense, and you're jeopardizing the matchup against Zacian-C and Ditto significantly. Forego it on a balance team, and you have to dedicate multiple slots to a Stealth Rock setter and Pokemon that can check Zacian-C and Xerneas. Even with multiple slots, Necrozma-DM's entire scope of qualities between Stealth Rock setter, Knock Off / status / Zekrom check with Earthquake, Zacian-C check, Xerneas check, and soft-check to half the metagame under Dynamax can never be reproduced by any core. No matter the developments throughout the generation, Necrozma-DM has remained as close to a constant as you can get due to these positives.
It is true that bulky Necrozma-DM comes with a fair few shortcomings. For one, it can be taken advantage of by dangerous presences such as Kyogre, Groudon, Zygarde-C, and Gothitelle. However, Necrozma-DM's ability to make progress with Stealth Rock / Knock Off / status conditions in the face of these suboptimal matchups and its otherworldly resiliency under Dynymax ensures that it hardly ever perishes without having contributed to the outcome of a match to an appreciable extent. Another drawback is Necrozma-DM's inability to properly check Assurance Zacian-C and a healthy Xerneas on its own. Nevertheless, the fact of the matter remains that Necrozma-DM is the most convenient form of counterplay to both of these threats. Besides, Zacian-C and Xerneas will both be worn down to a point where they are restricted by speed control quite easily, should they manage to outhit Necrozma-DM.
Beyond all of that, credit is to be allocated to Necrozma-DM's often overlooked Dragon Dance sets as well, being the terrific winconditions that they are. Ho-Oh's fall has been incredibly advantageous for these sets, freeing up Knock Off or Psychic Fangs over Stone Edge and thereby allowing Necroma-DM to slice through the rising Lunala and the ever-present Kyogre much more easily. Further experimentation with these sets has birthed a dangerous outcome in Life Orb variants as well, which can reach insane benchmarks such as cleanly OHKOing bulky Kyogre at +1 with Max Mindstorm and Lunala with Max Darkness.
We believe these qualities as a whole can only be conveyed properly by ranking Necrozma-DM as an S-rank presence. With this, we are removing S- as a rank.
:ss/lunala:
Lunala continues to flaunt its unique defensive perks as a hard-check to the metagame's hardest-to check threats in Groudon, Necrozma-DM, Zekrom, and Zygarde-C. This makes Lunala the ultimate countermeasure to the wide range of hyper offenses that have been popping up over the course of the past few months, and it evidently shows, letting it amass a great 60% win percentage over 20 uses in the later rounds of the winter seasonal. Lunala's ability to check Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM and Zygarde-C are especially valuable right now; with both of these setup sweepers stepping up the game by running Life Orb more frequently and being very resilient against any Choice Scarf user under Dynamax, there are little to no alternatives as far as reliable counterplay is concerned.
The shift to Eternatus + Yveltal in favor of Ho-Oh cores on pretty much every balance team is of great importance to Lunala's viability as well. Whereas Lunala fails to make much of any meaningful progress against Ho-Oh's Regenerator shenanigans, Eternatus and Yveltal are both crippled pretty harshly by Will-O-Wisp and Hypnosis. All things considered, Lunala breaks new ground by entering A for the first time.
:ss/ditto::ss/zacian::ss/darmanitan-galar:
Choice Scarf users have been at the forefront of the metagame for a long while now, but the experimentation with speed control is yet to cease.
Ditto depicts the relevance of speed control perfectly, coming in at 5th place over the last couple of rounds of the winter seasonal, outranking even Kyogre. As the safest form of speed control that punishes Calyrex-S and Zacian-C more harshly than any other option and does a good job at limiting anything from the nigh unwallable Zekrom to the metagame's most dangerous wincondition in Xerneas to even the top dog in speed tiers in Marshadow, Ditto's enormous recent success is no surprise in a metagame that has been craving for role compression desperately. It reinstates itself as a staple once again as a result.
Zacian and Galarian Darmanitan are some successful products of the aforementioned experimentation with speed control, having great outreach as revenge killers with their colorful coverage. Zacian's great Speed tier allows it to outspeed everything up to +2 Jolly Zekrom and Groudon. Intrepid Sword and Zacian's wide coverage does the rest, with Play Rough taking care of Zekrom, Zygarde-C, Xerneas, Yveltal, and Marshadow, Close Combat finishing off Zacian-C and Excadrill, Crunch OHKOing Calyrex-S, and Solar Blade denting Groudon out of commission. Galarian Darmanitan doesn't reach as much of an impressive Speed tier, but is every bit as effective when it comes to the amount of threats it can finish off, in addition to posing as a respectable, albeit prediction-reliant, wallbreaker. Both make their debut at C.
:ss/kyurem-white::ss/lapras:
Sheer Cold continues to sow the benefits of a centralized metagame, so it's natural for counterplay to rise in viability as well. Funnily enough, Sheer Cold counterplay-options happen to be Sheer Cold users themselves, solidifying their own viability indirectly.
Kyurem-W has established itself as the most reliable check to Kyogre and itself by now, and rises to A- for much of the same reasons as last time. Lapras is a cool tech that takes advantage of Kyurem-W and Sheer Cold Kyogre by firing off OHKO moves, making it a niche yet situationally potent wincondition that is capable of overcoming Sheer Cold immunities with Horn Drill and acting as a status absorber against Eternatus.
:ss/dracovish:
Dracovish has been making waves as an obscenely strong wallbreaker with the discovery of Choice Band sets alongside Thunder Wave Kyogre support to slow shared checks down and boost Fishious Rend with Drizzle. Fishious Rend reaches tremendous benchmarks under Rain, having a chance to OHKO even the likes of Eternatus and Lunala through Shadow Shield on the switch. A Speed tier that outspeeds everything up to bulky Yveltal lends Dracovish the necessary means to make use of this incredible power quite effectively though U-turn support or predictable double switches into Necrozma-DM and Yveltal. Even outside of Rain, Dracovish can easily take down Water-resistant Pokemon with its strong coverage moves; Eternatus is cleanly OHKOed by Dragon Rush after Stealth Rock damage, both Kyurem-W and Palkia are OHKOed by Dragon Rush without any necessary chip damage, and Lunala is crippled severely by Crunch. Dracovish jumps to B as a result of this lack in defined couterplay, and can only go upwards from here.
:ss/grimmsnarl:
Grimmsnarl hyper offenses are on the rise as countermeasures to the increased amounts of speed control on teams, boosting pretty much any traditional wallbreaker and setup sweeper into invincible territories. Necrozma-DM, Groudon, Zekrom, and Xerneas are notable staples on these teams, busting through counterplay and speed control alike with Grimmsnarl's support quite easily. As the catalyst of a dangerous anti-metagame trend, Grimmsnarl rises one subrank.
:ss/urshifu::ss/kyurem-black:
Speaking of wallbreakers and setup sweepers, we have two new ones making their debut in Urshifu and Kyurem-B. Similarly to Dracovish, Choice Band Urshifu doesn't know much of any effective defensive counterplay, taking advantage of the metagame's superglues in Necrozma-DM and Yveltal, cleanly 2HKOing slower Eternatus variants, and hitting everything bar the extremely niche bulky Xerneas for great amounts of damage between Wicked Blow and Close Combat. Sucker Punch and U-turn add a valuable touch of utility as well, letting Urshifu serve as a clutch revenge killer against the likes of Necrozma-DM and Calyrex-S, as well as preserving momentum in situations where it doesn't want to guess between Wicked Blow and Close Combat. Kyurem-B is a potent setup sweeper with Gothitelle support that can soft-check both Zygarde-C and Kyogre between Icicle Spear and Fusion Bolt, and act as a Sheer Cold absorber. Urshifu carves out a spot in C, whereas Kyurem-B will be modestly residing in D for now.
:ss/porygon2::ss/solgaleo:
To wrap up the rises, we have a pair of niche defensive picks finding a spot in the VR for the first time. Porygon2 does so courtesy of being a respectable check to Calyrex-S and Zygarde-C while offering Teleport support. Similarly, Solgaleo's access to Teleport allows it to form a tiny niche over Necrozma-DM. They will be ranked at C and D, respectively.
DROPS
:ss/ho-oh:
Ho-Oh has been very hard to justify for a very long while now, not really adding much of any value outside of strengthening the matchup against Spikes and Xerneas, pivoting into Choice Scarf / Choice Specs Calyrex-S and Zacian-C occasionally, and sponging some Dynamax turns from a few Pokemon at best. At worst, Ho-Oh is shut down by Eternatus and Ditto throughout an entire match and serves as bait for Kyogre, Zygarde-C, Zekrom, and Groudon. Ho-Oh doesn't convincingly check anything of note on its own, and it is this unfortunate fact that renders Ho-Oh an evident luxury in the metagame that is only really valuable for freeing up more offensive Yveltal sets on balance teams. The fact that Ho-Oh saw two uses from round 8 onwards in the winter seasonal, and won none of those matches is a pretty clear sign of its demise as well. As a result, Ho-Oh hits an all-time low by dropping to A-.
:ss/palkia::ss/reshiram:
Palkia and Reshiram have been outshadowed for ages by now. While both are still pretty respectable wallbreakers, Palkia simply doesn't cut it as a long-term wincondition between its tendency to get worn down by entry hazards, losing Leftovers to Knock Off, getting poisoned or dented by Dynamax Cannon whenever it tries to take on Eternatus, and failing to reliably break through bulky Yveltal without Rain support. Reshiram, similarly, is worn down alarmingly easily due to Stealth Rock damage and Flare Blitz plus Life Orb recoil, making it very dependant on Dynamax to put in work for extended amounts of time. Given as speed control usage is at an all-time high, this results in Reshiram being one of the easiest threats to revenge kill, making it inferior to many other setup sweepers.
:ss/giratina::ss/lugia:
Giratina and Lugia suffer under Lunala's reign as the premier physical wall. Giratina still differentiates itself as a Defogger with Pressure and thus manages to cling onto a C-ranking, but Lugia is utterly and hopelessly outclassed by Lunala in anything it may hope to accomplish other than being slightly more of an obstacle to Zacian-C.
marshadow -> A+
Marsh has been a mon used often in teams, but the way its used varies. This puts a threat on teams that rely on an offensive core and cant scout out moves and sets often. It has put up a huge threat to teams recently for band is just sheer power while bulk up gets to shred teams relying on defensive backbones. The reason I find it better now is because it provides support to mons like xern (to kill ndm) and break teams, opening up other mons to sweep. This strategy hasnt been used in cores a lot (that i’ve seen) and it should be looked over more.
Marsh has been a mon used often in teams, but the way its used varies. This puts a threat on teams that rely on an offensive core and cant scout out moves and sets often. It has put up a huge threat to teams recently for band is just sheer power while bulk up gets to shred teams relying on defensive backbones. The reason I find it better now is because it provides support to mons like xern (to kill ndm) and break teams, opening up other mons to sweep. This strategy hasnt been used in cores a lot (that i’ve seen) and it should be looked over more.
I feel like this might be a bit controversial, but I'm going to nominate Kyurem-W to A/A+.
:ss/kyurem-white:
This mon is an incredibly centralizing presence in the AG meta, applying tremendous pressure to any sort of balance or bulky build, capable of coming in for free on common Pokemon like Ferrothorn, non-Knock Off defensive Yveltal, Kyogre, or Ho-Oh if KyuW been burned, and then clicking Sheer Cold. There are almost no safe switch-ins to this monstrosity, with "checks" being limited to the opponent's own Kyurem-W, the uncommon Lapras, a Ditto, or Calyrex-I under some circumstances. The fact that Kyurem-W is its own most reliable counterplay illustrates just how meta-warping and overcentralizing this Pokemon is. In my view, Kyurem-W is easily more centralizing than the rest of the A- rank barring potentially only Ditto. Ho-Oh, for instance, is a solid support Pokemon but it struggles to thrive in a meta inhabited by Zacian-C and Calyrex-S, both of which pressure it heavily. Gothitelle, while threatening, can often be beaten through simply outplaying it. No such luxury exists for Kyurem-W, which also provides invaluable defensive utility as one of the, if not the most reliable Kyogre check in the meta.
I could find more replays but I don't have endless time right now. Please consider this nomination!
E: apparently this is my 700th post so that's cool
:ss/kyurem-white:
This mon is an incredibly centralizing presence in the AG meta, applying tremendous pressure to any sort of balance or bulky build, capable of coming in for free on common Pokemon like Ferrothorn, non-Knock Off defensive Yveltal, Kyogre, or Ho-Oh if KyuW been burned, and then clicking Sheer Cold. There are almost no safe switch-ins to this monstrosity, with "checks" being limited to the opponent's own Kyurem-W, the uncommon Lapras, a Ditto, or Calyrex-I under some circumstances. The fact that Kyurem-W is its own most reliable counterplay illustrates just how meta-warping and overcentralizing this Pokemon is. In my view, Kyurem-W is easily more centralizing than the rest of the A- rank barring potentially only Ditto. Ho-Oh, for instance, is a solid support Pokemon but it struggles to thrive in a meta inhabited by Zacian-C and Calyrex-S, both of which pressure it heavily. Gothitelle, while threatening, can often be beaten through simply outplaying it. No such luxury exists for Kyurem-W, which also provides invaluable defensive utility as one of the, if not the most reliable Kyogre check in the meta.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1316505154 - Kyurem-W dismantles a passive team with sheer cold.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1320232652-15o39cwq7t9a52amgi6dtb8pvzryeljpw - Kyurem-W mauls another really passive team, taking advantage of its lack of Sheer Cold absorbers.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1317232797-t385349zm9flh988jmu7g8efiucjcqjpw - Kyurem-W trashes a balance thanks in part to a really incompetent opponent
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1313843177-ljbrua4isp99cq9cgiol0pus3zgrgm6pw - Kyurem-W removes a key defensive Pokemon, allowing Zacian-C to do severe damage.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1304232739-p96jhutsjsgrtdr4goa7uxr963kzo2opw - Kyurem-W successfully holds off three Kyogres lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1304027998-dyvgq6lbvj83jzg1zunnbga3hx97efbpw - Kyurem-W just kinda kills everything
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1302742542-7npmolykipmgld8x25o3k5n4fawosc1pw - Kyurem-W mauls an offensive core, greatly easing the pressure on my breakers.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1302263770 - Fc's Kyurem-W succesfully cheeses an otherwise lost endgame against Nevelle in R10 of the winter seasonal.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1320232652-15o39cwq7t9a52amgi6dtb8pvzryeljpw - Kyurem-W mauls another really passive team, taking advantage of its lack of Sheer Cold absorbers.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1317232797-t385349zm9flh988jmu7g8efiucjcqjpw - Kyurem-W trashes a balance thanks in part to a really incompetent opponent
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1313843177-ljbrua4isp99cq9cgiol0pus3zgrgm6pw - Kyurem-W removes a key defensive Pokemon, allowing Zacian-C to do severe damage.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1304232739-p96jhutsjsgrtdr4goa7uxr963kzo2opw - Kyurem-W successfully holds off three Kyogres lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1304027998-dyvgq6lbvj83jzg1zunnbga3hx97efbpw - Kyurem-W just kinda kills everything
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1302742542-7npmolykipmgld8x25o3k5n4fawosc1pw - Kyurem-W mauls an offensive core, greatly easing the pressure on my breakers.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1302263770 - Fc's Kyurem-W succesfully cheeses an otherwise lost endgame against Nevelle in R10 of the winter seasonal.
E: apparently this is my 700th post so that's cool
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