Almost Any Ability XY (Suspect Over: Weavile banned, Keldeo Stays)

[largato]

unaware suicune should be banned.. it's uncounterable unless you have a very specific (and otherwise rather useless) pokemon just to counter it.
When volcanion gets released it might be a passable counter for it.. otherwise no pokemon can resist the burns from scald and be offensive enough to break through suicune's bulk before it rests and starts all over again..
a fire/grass type with enough physical power would also be a good choice, but since pyroak isn't a real poke yet, suicune is WAY overpowered in this meta..
and don't come with dry skin/water absorb/storm drain arguments, because these abilities are pretty much useless against the major threats in this meta..

i'd actually want suicune to be banned altogether, since poison heal suicune is a pain in the ass too (roaring out the competition and setting up with so much bulk it's almost impossible to defeat it) but then the stall lovers would be all pissed off at me, so i'll settle for only banning unaware suicune

 

[toxicroaker]

I think a suicune ban would be good for the meta. I am tierd of stall being pretty much the only viable strategy. It's time that we have an almost balanced aaa meta.

 

[Monte Cristo]

I think a suicune ban would be good for the meta. I am tierd of stall being pretty much the only viable strategy. It's time that we have an almost balanced aaa meta.

omfg I'm not going to ban stall because you people can't learn how to use offense. Wait for OMPL and see someone use offense before you knock it

 

[largato]

Monte Cristo that's exactly why i mentioned the stall lovers, but unaware suicune is too much.. tell me then what is a viable option to counter it, one that can count to knock other pokemon out too and not only suicune..
i tried a lot of stuff, my team is pretty much stall breaking oriented, but even unaware heart swap manaphy can't handle it..

 

[Monte Cristo]

Monte Cristo that's exactly why i mentioned the stall lovers, but unaware suicune is too much.. tell me then what is a viable option to counter it, one that can count to knock other pokemon out too and not only suicune..
i tried a lot of stuff, my team is pretty much stall breaking oriented, but even unaware heart swap manaphy can't handle it..

unaware celebi will always beat it one on one, annd that's only 1 option, there's roar, whirlwind, taunt, etc

idk how you're losing with heart swap + offensive pressure

 

[Olaph Olaffsson]

Adaptability Hawlucha with Flying Press would just shit on half the meta. A 4x boost, just from STAB. And nothing 8x resists it, which means that effectiveness can only cancel out the STAB boost (except with Ghost types)

 

[Monte Cristo]

Adaptability Hawlucha with Flying Press would just shit on half the meta. A 4x boost, just from STAB. And nothing 8x resists it, which means that effectiveness can only cancel out the STAB boost (except with Ghost types)

that's not how adaptabillity and flying press works


Marty can confirm

 

[largato]

unaware celebi will always beat it one on one, annd that's only 1 option, there's roar, whirlwind, taunt, etc

idk how you're losing with heart swap + offensive pressure, it must take some level of suckiness to achieve that

have you ever played m!nh??
unaware celebi would lose too, suicune can stand enough hits (it doesn't matter if you set up since unaware vs unaware don't take into account stat changes) to scald and sleep talk scald until it gets celebi burned.. if you run a special celebi, it would work the same way.. IF you don't have a grass counter, for instance, heatran, or entei..
as to roar you can always put suicune back in.. and it can get enough hits to burn you up before you roar again
taunt wouldn't stop the scald, and only lasts three turns..

you're thinking about suicune on its own, if you build a team around it it's simply unbeatable..
i beat m!nh once, only once, and never with his/her new team..

challenge m!nh a few times, and tell me if you agree unaware suicune should stay unbanned

 

[aesf]

I know Heatran is normally a defensive pokemon, but I just feel like mentioning its abilities as an offensive chlorophyll sweeper:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-140671938

Also:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 387-456 (54.9 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune in Sun: 267-315 (66 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

only thing it doesnt 2hko is flash fire and AV goodra.

 

[Monte Cristo]

have you ever played m!nh??
unaware celebi would lose too, suicune can stand enough hits (it doesn't matter if you set up since unaware vs unaware don't take into account stat changes) to scald and sleep talk scald until it gets celebi burned.. if you run a special celebi, it would work the same way.. IF you don't have a grass counter, for instance, heatran, or entei..
as to roar you can always put suicune back in.. and it can get enough hits to burn you up before you roar again
taunt wouldn't stop the scald, and only lasts three turns..

you're thinking about suicune on its own, if you build a team around it it's simply unbeatable..
i beat m!nh once, only once, and never with his/her new team..

challenge m!nh a few times, and tell me if you agree unaware suicune should stay unbanned

battle users kl4ng and word and get whooped because you have more to learn when it comes to AAA

 

[Pikachuun]

unaware celebi would lose too, suicune can stand enough hits (it doesn't matter if you set up since unaware vs unaware don't take into account stat changes) to scald and sleep talk scald until it gets celebi burned.. if you run a special celebi, it would work the same way.. IF you don't have a grass counter, for instance, heatran, or entei..

Taunt + Giga Drain + Heal Bell/Recover is a thing that said Unaware Celebi can run? I can go as far as to say that Suicune is hard-countered by Unaware Celebi, as Celebi can either dish out a chunk of damage to it [0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery] while all Suicune can do is hope for freeze with Ice Beam [4 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 90-106 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery] or burn with Scald for passive damage. Keep in mind that's a 3HKO. As in "Rest doesn't save you unless you get lucky." This is not including Leech Seed, and these are with Standard sets. If you're running Specially Defensive CM Unaware cune that's fine too, I can just send in protean victini and hit it with my electric coverage [252 Atk Victini Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 242-288 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery], and ohko your cune if Victini's banded [252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 470-554 (116.3 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO OR 252 Atk Choice Band Victini Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 362-428 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO]. I'm missing a lot of things that can hit your unaware. The point is that stall and offense are at least somewhat balanced. If you lose to something a lot, try to adapt your team to it before complaining that something's OP.

 

[Klang]

Crocune really isn't that big of an issue tbh.

Poison heal versions are skill swap bait and the unaware version suffers from the same issue the standard version does: ResTalk as recovery really sucks. Not only is sleep talking completely unreliable, but the fact that it has to run sleep talk means it can only run water coverage, which is extremely easy to abuse. Leech seed is pretty much an instant stop to Cune as well, forcing it out. Hell, if you just slap water absorb on anything Cune won't be able to touch you, which is hilarious. Unaware, while not an ability that allows you to defeat Suicune, can tank everything it has all day too.

Rest / Calm Mind / Scald / [coverage move] is slightly more effective, but it's an easy punching bag while asleep, and the coverage move of choice doesn't even solve all of the problems it has, since HP grass still can't touch grass types and ice beam doesn't solve the issue it has with water types.

Fun fact, I don't even have any of the counters I mentioned above (Well, bar Unaware, but it's on a physical wall so that won't help much). Since the more common set is the mono-coverage one, I can usually just PP stall it with Regenerator Goodra and Poison Heal Vaporeon. No attacking means no rest and (therefore no scald sleep talks), and scald has numbered uses.

Click here to watch 150 turns of PP stalling goodness

Granted, it's a good mon, it's just not without its glaring flaws.

 

[largato]

battle users kl4ng and word and watch your ass get whooped because you are quite dense when it comes to AAA

i'm number 18 in the ladder... (go check it)
i've battled word, i know his strategies, he's the ultimate staller, but if i can't beat him with the team i'm using now, be sure i'll give him quite a challenge..
you didn't battle m!nh, top of the ladder right now, with a team he put together after i beat his last team (which already used unaware suicune)
AAA is my favorite meta, so i know a little bit about it

Taunt + Giga Drain + Heal Bell/Recover is a thing that said Unaware Celebi can run? I can go as far as to say that Suicune is hard-countered by Unaware Celebi, as Celebi can either dish out a chunk of damage to it [0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery] while all Suicune can do is hope for freeze with Ice Beam [4 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 90-106 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery] or burn with Scald for passive damage. Keep in mind that's a 3HKO. As in "Rest doesn't save you unless you get lucky." This is not including Leech Seed, and these are with Standard sets. If you're running Specially Defensive CM Unaware cune that's fine too, I can just send in protean victini and hit it with my electric coverage [252 Atk Victini Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 242-288 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery], and ohko your cune if Victini's banded [252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 470-554 (116.3 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO OR 252 Atk Choice Band Victini Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 362-428 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO]. I'm missing a lot of things that can hit your unaware. The point is that stall and offense are at least somewhat balanced. If you lose to something a lot, try to adapt your team to it before complaining that something's OP.

well you can try to counter unaware suicune with unaware celebi, but then your opponent will switch to adaptability bisharp, or drought heatran/victini , any ability entei, sap sipper swampert, gale wings anything, or a lot of other pokes common in AAA, and then your "counter" will be nothing but a memory

Crocune really isn't that big of an issue tbh.

Poison heal versions are skill swap bait and the unaware version suffers from the same issue the standard version does: ResTalk as recovery really sucks. Not only is sleep talking completely unreliable, but the fact that it has to run sleep talk means it can only run water coverage, which is extremely easy to abuse. Leech seed is pretty much an instant stop to Cune as well, forcing it out. Hell, if you just slap water absorb on anything Cune won't be able to touch you, which is hilarious. Unaware, while not an ability that allows you to defeat Suicune, can tank everything it has all day too.

Rest / Calm Mind / Scald / [coverage move] is slightly more effective, but it's an easy punching bag while asleep, and the coverage move of choice doesn't even solve all of the problems it has, since HP grass still can't touch grass types and ice beam doesn't solve the issue it has with water types.

Fun fact, I don't even have any of the counters I mentioned above (Well, bar Unaware, but it's on a physical wall so that won't help much). Since the more common set is the mono-coverage one, I can usually just PP stall it with Regenerator Goodra and Poison Heal Vaporeon. No attacking means no rest and (therefore no scald sleep talks), and scald has numbered uses.

Click here to watch 150 turns of PP stalling goodness

Granted, it's a good mon, it's just not without its glaring flaws.

so the only counter to the ultimate staller is stall yourself?
if something is so OP that no one has a chance to beat unless he uses the same thing, then that thing should be banned shouldn't it?
that's my problem with stall, i don't wanna waste an hour of my time pp draining my opponent, there should be other options..
in allowing something that powerful (AND BORING) administrators are secluding a whole bunch of people that wanna try different things and killing the fun for the whole rest of the people
and i didn't even start commenting stall should be banned (although i'd like that) i just think unaware suicune should be banned because it's so OP you have no chance but to build a strategy specifically to counter it, and miss on the fun of trying a whole bunch of other options

 

[Monte Cristo]

i'm number 18 in the ladder you imbecile... (go check it)
i've battled word, i know his strategies, he's the ultimate staller, but if i can't beat him with the team i'm using now, be sure i'll give him quite a challenge..
you didn't battle m!nh, top of the ladder right now, with a team he put together after i beat his last team (which already used unaware suicune)
AAA is my favorite meta, so i know a little bit about it

"ultimate staller" >kl4ng stall exists
also wow ladder so scary. kl4ng was bought for 27500 credits in premiere league, and I'm also in OMPL. where are you and this nobody in terms of beig a premier top tier player again?

 

[Klang]

well you can try to counter unaware suicune with unaware celebi, but then your opponent will switch to adaptability bisharp, or drought heatran, any ability entei, sap sipper swampert, gale wings anything, or a lot of other pokes common in AAA, and then your "counter" will be nothing but a memory

well you can try to counter staraptor with skarmory, but then your opponent will switch to magnezone, or drought heatran, any ability entei, thundurus, , or a lot of other pokes common in AAA, and then your "counter" will be nothing but a memory

well you can try to counter staraptor with regirock, but then your opponent will switch to terrakion, or keldeo, shaymin, landorus, flash cannon aegislash, or a lot of other pokes common in AAA, and then your "counter" will be nothing but a memory

well you can try to counter staraptor with rhyperior, but then your opponent will switch to terrakion, or keldeo, shaymin, landorus, celebi, or a lot of other pokes common in AAA, and then your "counter" will be nothing but a memory

Conclusion: Staraptor is broken

How can you not see how flawed this statement is...

so the only counter to the ultimate staller is stall yourself?
if something is so OP that no one has a chance to beat unless he uses the same thing, then that thing should be banned shouldn't it?
that's my problem with stall, i don't wanna waste an hour of my time pp draining my opponent, there should be other options..
in allowing something that powerful (AND BORING) administrators are secluding a whole bunch of people that wanna try different things and killing the fun for the whole rest of the people
and i didn't even start commenting stall should be banned (although i'd like that) i just think unaware suicune should be banned because it's so OP you have no chance but to build a strategy specifically to counter it, and miss on the fun of trying a whole bunch of other options

So you just skipped past everything I said and jumped straight to my PP stall method, solely because I, personally, couldn't fit any of the other things I said above? You do NOT need to use stall to beat it. Infact, offense has an easier time since it can just batter crocune off the bat with strong attacks. Crocune thrives off balance and stall, as it can set up in their faces without worrying about very much. However, common HO wallbreakers, in addition to mold breaker hazard support which will wear it down since it cannot recover on the spot, makes things hard for it.

 

[Pikachuun]

well you can try to counter unaware suicune with unaware celebi, but then your opponent will switch to adaptability bisharp, or drought heatran/victini , any ability entei, sap sipper swampert, gale wings anything, or a lot of other pokes common in AAA, and then your "counter" will be nothing but a memory

Glad to see you just proved my point about Unaware celebi being a counter! The definition of a counter is "Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." Something that this implies? Pokemon A forces Pokemon B to switch out. Besides, I can just switch to something with Flash Fire and a fire/ground type attack, something that is physically defensive and has freeze dry, drizzle keldeo, refrigerate extremespeed (yes you can run unstabbed -ate espeed for coverage), or a lot of other pokes common in AAA, and then your "counter" will be nothing but a memory.

tl;dr learn what counters are before saying that something has none. Your argument says that Pikachu is broken in OU, believe it or not. I can give examples if needed.

 

[largato]

well you can try to counter staraptor with skarmory, but then your opponent will switch to magnezone, or drought heatran, any ability entei, thundurus, , or a lot of other pokes common in AAA, and then your "counter" will be nothing but a memory

well you can try to counter staraptor with regirock, but then your opponent will switch to terrakion, or keldeo, shaymin, landorus, flash cannon aegislash, or a lot of other pokes common in AAA, and then your "counter" will be nothing but a memory

well you can try to counter staraptor with rhyperior, but then your opponent will switch to terrakion, or keldeo, shaymin, landorus, celebi, or a lot of other pokes common in AAA, and then your "counter" will be nothing but a memory

Conclusion: Staraptor is broken

How can you not see how flawed this statement is...



So you just skipped past everything I said and jumped straight to my PP stall method, solely because I couldn't fit any of the other things I said above? You do NOT need to use stall to beat it. Infact, offense has an easier time since it can just break crocune off the bat with strong attacks.

i mean unaware celebi isn't that great a pokemon in AAA to be enough to be competitive against the rest of the unaware suicune user's team, staraptor has a very obvious and pretty competitive counter which is refrigerate espeed.. pokemon that have espeed are pretty competitive against lots of other pokemon in AAA. So staraptor is a really strong pokemon but not invincible. I didn't skip the counters you mentioned because water absorb is a useless ability against other pokemon, skill swap is a passable solution, but then again it's not an offensive based solution and is more common in stall teams
as to how offense is a better solution to breaking unaware cune, you didn't give me a single offensive countering example..
heart swap energy ball unaware manaphy is a great solution to poison heal cune, but it doesn't get enough coverage to be competitive against most pokemon to be viable against unaware cune, since it can only take down cune with 3 or 4 hits and by then it got burned and the opponent switched to counter manaphy
guts isn't enough to break through cune's incredible defense and recovery before the status kills you, mold breaker isn't an option either because in the mean time you set up with swords dance or whatever, your attack got halfed by the burn
believe me i tried a lot of offensive strats, and while i don't resort to stall, i don't see anything becoming viable that soon to counter unaware cune

Glad to see you just proved my point about Unaware celebi being a counter! The definition of a counter is "Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." Something that this implies? Pokemon A forces Pokemon B to switch out. Besides, I can just switch to something with Flash Fire and a fire/ground type attack, something that is physically defensive and has freeze dry, drizzle keldeo, refrigerate extremespeed (yes you can run unstabbed -ate espeed for coverage), or a lot of other pokes common in AAA, and then your "counter" will be nothing but a memory.

tl;dr learn what counters are before saying that something has none. Your argument says that Pikachu is broken in OU, believe it or not. I can give examples if needed.

pikachuun i didn't mean to say celebi wasn't a counter, i just meant it wasn't competitive enough to be worthy to use it just to counter suicune..

grass is too weak against too many types to be offensively competitive.. of course celebi would be a great poke in a stall team where you can just switch to a bulky poke ready to take the hits that would kill celebi, but in a sweeping team, celebi isn't strong enough to be a worthy counter to cune

 

[Valzy]

Can't set up sweepers with Teravolt counter Unaware Suicune?

 

[Dark Mage Ewan]

Cough cough Dry Skin Rhyperioir/ Rhydon cough...

 

[EV]

I edited a few posts in this thread. Please keep it civil and don't resort to ad hominems if you disagree with someone.

 

[largato]

Can't set up sweepers with Teravolt counter Unaware Suicune?

the only weaknesses of suicune are grass (which is offensively ridiculous against everything else), and electric, which is ineffective against ground, and weak against grass, electric, and last but not least dragon
any physical sweeper with teravolt/mold breaker/turboblaze would be cut off by scald's burns
a special teravolt sweeper could take out cune but cune won't stay on the field to see through that.. there wil come the chanseys and goodras and whatever (in m!nh's case the mega venusaur or heatran), to take down the teravolt sweeper..
you can try to sweep cune with teravolt, but odds are you'll fail
and then we're back to stall

I edited a few posts in this thread. Please keep it civil and don't resort to ad hominems if you disagree with someone.

eevee you must admit imbecile was a pretty classy way to rebound the "dense" comment of monte cristo (which i didn't see you editing btw)
ps.: how do you like my own fanmade ghost type eeveelution, being an eevee fan yourself?? i call it spectreon

 

[Peef Rimgar]

the only weaknesses of suicune are grass (which is offensively ridiculous against everything else), and electric, which is ineffective against ground, and weak against grass, electric, and last but not least dragon
any physical sweeper with teravolt/mold breaker/turboblaze would be cut off by scald's burns
a special teravolt sweeper could take out cune but cune won't stay on the field to see through that.. there wil come the chanseys and goodras and whatever (in m!nh's case the mega venusaur or heatran), to take down the teravolt sweeper..
you can try to sweep cune with teravolt, but odds are you'll fail
and then we're back to stall

If a switch is forced, that implies you're beaten. It's 100% irrelevant if the team has counters. I could say that fucking Ferrothorn is broken in OU because it counters physical attackers, but it can just switch out of special attackers or stuff with SE coverage. That argument would also be illogical in saying it's too good.

 

[Monte Cristo]

the only weaknesses of suicune are grass (which is offensively ridiculous against everything else), and electric, which is ineffective against ground, and weak against grass, electric, and last but not least dragon
any physical sweeper with teravolt/mold breaker/turboblaze would be cut off by scald's burns
a special teravolt sweeper could take out cune but cune won't stay on the field to see through that.. there wil come the chanseys and goodras and whatever (in m!nh's case the mega venusaur or heatran), to take down the teravolt sweeper..
you can try to sweep cune with teravolt, but odds are you'll fail
and then we're back to stall


eevee you must admit imbecile was a pretty classy way to rebound the "dense" comment of monte cristo (which i didn't see you editing btw)
ps.: how do you like my own fanmade ghost type eeveelution, being an eevee fan yourself?? i call it spectreon

the difference is the dense comment I made was quite accurate, as I've observed from seeing you post in this thread.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Jesus christ LMAO

We shouldn't be looking at Unaware Suicune, It works exactly like Unaware Clefable in standard metas except it's bulkier. Offense actually works very well in this meta, in fact, many of my opponents in BH say the same that "stall is too broken" when I fight them, even though offense is the more dominant playstyle. Almost all metagames are dominated by offense, why can't stall dominate too? Wise up to stall and stop whining.

 

[largato]

the difference is the dense comment I made was quite accurate, as I've observed from seeing you post in this thread.

monte cristo i see you calling me dense but you still didn't come up with a good counter for cune that is a viable contender in aaa.
i mean, i don't mind being called dense, but at least try to sound smart when you say it..

Jesus christ LMAO

We shouldn't be looking at Unaware Suicune, It works exactly like Unaware Clefable in standard metas except it's bulkier. Offense actually works very well in this meta, in fact, many of my opponents in BH say the same that "stall is too broken" when I fight them, even though offense is the more dominant playstyle. Almost all metagames are dominated by offense, why can't stall dominate too? Wise up to stall and stop whining.

it's exceptionally bulkier than clefable, plus it only needs boosts to it's sp def, cause the burns take care of the physical damage..
the only reason offense dominates in most metas is because in most metas people like offense more, but the most dangerous teams are stallers in most metas.. that's why ferrothorn and heatran are so used in ou, and chansey in every meta
you say yourself that offense gets more used cause most people can't stand staying in a battle for 100 turns.. most people find it boring and annoying
the only reason i claimed for a ban of unaware cune is that if you build a team around it, then it's unbeatable.. and no unbeatable thing should be unbanned..
mega lucario and kanghaskhan are childplay next to this thing.. and they are banned

If a switch is forced, that implies you're beaten. It's 100% irrelevant if the team has counters. I could say that fucking Ferrothorn is broken in OU because it counters physical attackers, but it can just switch out of special attackers or stuff with SE coverage. That argument would also be illogical in saying it's too good.

ferrothorn has counters, good ones, which are also strong against a lot of other strats.. a single hidden power fire with the right poke and it's down..
cune has counters, strong ones against it, but they aren't strong against the majority of the other pokes and strats
if that's not the definition of overpowered i don't know what is..

i personally hate stall, but that's only my opinion, and recognizing that i'm not making the argument to ban stall, i'm just saying cune is too much if you build a team around it..