AAA Almost Any Ability

Dragonite is broken and needs to go

It's obviously early in the new meta so even if I take a confident tone in this post we probably still need time but I had absurd sucess with it in the games I played and it overall feels too strong and restricting.
Even if Dragonite was "fine" until now I think the change of metagame and the ban of 3 mons that could handle it/prevent setup (Ice Spinner Tusk and eventually Armor Tail, Gholdengo cuz Gholdengo lol, and Baxcalibur who lives ESpeed at +1) is huge for such a powerful Pokemon.

Even if Isaiah keeps saying that Dragonite is bad, I heavly disagree with him now ; let's not forget that it's a 600 BST mon, with 91/95/100 bulk which is huge (Corviknight is only 98/105/85 for example) as well as 134 in Attack, access to powerful moves, and a decent SpA of 100 which allows it to run special moves to bait its usual answers.

Speaking of the usual answers of Dragonite, they are rare and often bad, or lead to bad/shaky structure (like Corv + Dazzling mon). I've won many games with Dragonite casually clicking Dragon Dance and being unkillable afterwards bc Roost lets it farm passive answers like Corviknight (unless it's Iron Press Corvi but that's a very specific set that can still lose to some Dnite variants lol)

Let's take a look at all the moves Dragonite can use, which allows a decent versatility and can be hard to account for a single team without specific tricks (i.e. random Dazzling mons that would prefer a better ability)

:sv/dragonite:
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Choice Band / Sharp Beak / Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Aerilate (or defensive abilities like Fluffy/very weird ones like SF but I'm only talking of Aerilate here which is by far the best set)
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def (you may want some Spe EVs but a) people will usually not assume you're 0 speed b) Max HP Dragonite is super bulky, it allows you to check stuff like Ceruledge, non-Ice Spinner Quaqua, Cinderace, etc, and to take his + threaten an ESpeed and it's quite strong) (obv don't run that without Roost)
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance - Mandatory move #1 unless you need to bait something very specific
- Extreme Speed - Mandatory move #2, basically kills everything offensive, offers Speed Control, etc
Options
- Roost - best third move on 90% of the Dragonite because it means Corviknight is often free setup, you have an actualy utility outside of just being a sweeper, etc
- Low Kick - Best fourth move in general, which I discovered thanks to LordBox owning me with it, it destroys Garganacl, Kingambit, hits every Corviknight, Iron Treads, almost everything that can be used as a middle ground vs Dragonite + has 32 PP which means you can PP Stall Unaware Corviknight
- Fire Punch/Thunder Punch/Earthquake - other moves that you may want for specific uses (targetting fluffy etc)
- Encore/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Dragon Tail/Draco Meteor/Facade/Ice Beam/Ice Spinner/Hurricane/Hyper Beam/Substitute - literally anything you want if you want to bait something. Obviously those aren't good/optimal moves but if we go into a meta with Dondozo in every team to check Dragonite, you could just use Thunderbolt and kills it ; if that was your only answer, too bad, you lose ; and if you're packing 2 or 3 Dragonite's checks, well that is an unhealthy mon lol

Because, yeah, what really checks Dragonite ? If you look at the VR (although not fully updated, but that still gives an idea) :
- Corviknight is free setup unless you're Idef Press (even then, you can lose if you're para'd/if it's flame or tbolt dnite, even tpunch at +1 does a lot +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 192-228 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)

- Garganacl is mid rn and takes a lot on Low Kick (252+ Atk Dragonite Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Full Def Garg is bad but you're 2HKO'd on the switch after rocks)

-Dragonite obviously doesn't come on itself (unless i's Fluffy Ice Spinner but guess what.. you don't even OHKO without invests 0 Atk Dragonite Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 308-364 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and you're almost 2HKO'd at +1 so with any chip you lose)

- Cinderace loses and is even farmed by Dragonite unless it's WoW or Band DesolateLand but you die on ESpeed after Rocks

- Iron Moth is farmed unless Discharge Para

- Kingambit dies on Low-Kick and EQ/Fire Punch if you have the wrong ability (252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 163-193 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO btw)

- Roaring Moon actually lives ESpeed at +1 but.. fails to OHKO
etc etc

All the offensive mons overall die, if you're looking for answers through the VR you can see :
-Scream Tail : Actually works except that Dazzling Geam does 0 so you'll have to rely on paras to beat it (which "works" but is not a very reliable gameplan)
-Dondozo : works in general, but you're weak to TBolt even if it's not common, it's shit with Rest in my opinion so you rely on Protect or Regenerator to heal, and you're weak to hazards / I'm not saying Dondozo doesn't work, it will often work, but a good player with a good team will always be able to weaken it and eventually have a chance so it's not even a hard wall
- WoW Skeledirge : usually works but you need full def to be able to come on Earthquake
- Intimidate Hippowdown : ok this one is bad but if you want a 100% check to Dragonite I guess this works

I didn't mention "fast" mons that resist Extreme Speed, they can work, issue being that.. they are often unable to OHKO Dragonite lol so you need yo play carefully and weaken it and even then they can just.. switch-out if needed, and if you take any chip (with hazards for example), you lose.

There are other options that aren't in the VR but can do the work, Regenerator Donphan (which needs to be full life + to have the RH + be Full Def to actually win according to Siamato who did the set), Tinkaton (cool mon tbh), and others that I don't have in mind/didn't use, but Dragonite feels too restricting, annihilates HO, is hard to deal with, can easily win games on the spot so you are forced to run suboptimal sets that aren't even hard counter, and you can always lose to a random bait bc of it's absurd movepool

Dragonite had a nice run, it was cool to see it free for a while in gen9, but I believe it has to end, sorry little dragon :c

Didn't save them all cuz the server was hella lagging + ladders replays aren't the best, I wrote this post after my afternoon laddering where I saw that Dragonite was quite hard to deal with, but I already saw that it was shaky in the builder, both before and even more now
I used this team which is not optimized I literally took 3 minutes to make it (Spikes Meow for example sucks af, it's just cuz I wanted to build Spikes Meow + GaG at first but it's bad), but it's actually quite fun to play and offensive, Ace guarantees the MU vs GaG spam and you have a lot of enough pressure with Donphan + Tinkaton doing an amazing job, I usually win with Tink + Donph + Dragonite, Tink + Dnite is p good actually since you can knock and para corv and then Dnite beats it lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1818932452 vs jrdn
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1818918313-baplqkctg6l956z31ar9k1j1hp6ku30pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1818697880 ik opponent was weak to dnite.. and it straight up wins lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1818678957-lyj9m83jhh23lky62yzyya32zujf0r5pw

not the most relevant replays but the only one I saved, but still better than nothing !

(oh btw GaG needs to go, or unban Bounce but even if I like this ability I don't really believe it would solve the issue)

anyway, good night, take care (except Siamato noob)

:heart: :heart:
 
As you know that Queenly Majesty / Dazzling / Armor Tail block Extreme Speed.

Here's some of my checks / counters to Dragonite:

282.png
+ Queenly Majesty / Dazzling / Armor Tail - Althrough it has the same base speed as Dragonite, It can Taunt it and cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. It Needs to watch out for Facade, Carry a Focus Sash in case. There can be Speed Tie wars with Dragonite and Gardevoir if they both have Max Speed.

995.png
+ Earth Eater - With 1/4 Resistance to Flying and Earth Eater, the only Thing that can Hurt Iron Thorns is Low Kick, it will get OHKOed by it useless it has a Chople Berry, it can Avoid the OHKO. Do NOT switch into a Low Kick or Thorns is history.

+1 252 Atk Dragonite Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chople Berry Iron Thorns: 184-217 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Iron Thorns Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 384-452 (118.8 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Iron Thorns Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 384-452 (118.8 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

462.png
+ Earth Eater - It also has 1/4 Resistance to Flying, Running a Max Defense set is prefered for this, as it gets 2HKOed by +1 Low Kick. Magnezone can cripple Dragonite with Thunder Wave and set up Iron Defense to sponge out hits. It can safety Switch in into a Extreme Speed, but not against a Low Kick if predicted.

448.png
+ Refrigerate - Lucario can outspeed an unboosted Jolly Dragonite with Max Speed and OHKO it back with its own move. Give Dragonite a taste of its own medicine with Refrigerate Extreme Speed! Focus Sash can Revenge Kill Dragonite even if it has +1 Speed.
 
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:heracross: Stop using this title format to draw in viewers (it is bad and obvious, the content of your post should be enough to carry it) :heracross:​

Haven't made a post in a while, would like to share my thoughts on some stuff.

:houndstone:
I'm sorry, how exactly was this quickbanned and implied to be as broken as Great Tusk (ultra broken mon) and Baxicalibur (personally I thought it was manageable but I get why people thought it was broken) in the same breath? You are actively handicapping yourself if you put Houndstone on a team because you are committing to playing a 5v6 for the whole match. Of course some offensive mons are gonna have bad MUs and you'll be playing a 5v6 regardless sometimes, but with Houndstone it happens in every match because it is obviously your win condition. Because Houndstone only works in 5v6 scenario, it doesn't really get the chance to wear down its own checks and instead has to heavily rely on teammates to do it. Compare that to something like, say, any other breaker in the tier that can come it and use a powerful move to force a predictable reaction. Houndstone can't do that because Last Respects only becomes usable when you're down by 3 mons, which is often too late in the game to position your Houndstone correctly for more than one chance to sweep.

A lot of what the ban reasoning conveniently glosses over is that Scarf Houndstone has a really bad Speed tier for a Scarfed mon. 385 if Jolly (the only good set, please do not use Adamant it is so bad) is outsped by Talonflame, Chien-Pao, and various Scarfers such as Armarouge, Mewoscarda, Roaring Moon, Sandy Shocks, and Greninja. None of these individually are the most common mons, but together these can be reasonably put on any viable team for little opportunity cost, as well as the fact they are just generally good at dealing with offense. Houndstone running SE means that it is picked off by any priority, from Sucker Punch Cinderace to Triage Hatterene to Aerilate Dragonite. Priority is very common on teams right now due to how powerful the mons with priority are to begin with, meaning that most competent teams contain some form of offensive Houndstone counterplay.

As for the point about there only being binary checks to Hounstone, this would be true...if these checks were uncommon or even difficult to fit. It's not something like Noivern where it could be stopped, but doing so required one of 2 mons (Blissey, SS Garg) that were mainly used for Noivern (excluding the fact that Noivern could run Super Fang + Taunt to shit all over its switch-ins); all of Houndstone's defensive and offensive counterplay are easy to fit and should naturally be on almost every viable team. Kingambit and Roaring Moon were already pretty good before the Great Tusk ban, but now with it gone, they should easily rise in usage; Ting-Lu is a bit more iffy imo since it directly competes with the other 2 Dark-types for a Regen slot but its stocks are going up as well. In fact, the Great Tusk ban would have made things worse for Houndstone, since now there's a lot smaller of an opportunity cost to running both defensive and offensive Dark- and Normal-types, both of which directly check Houndstone.

As I said at the beginning, I really am struggling to see what exactly caused this to be quickbanned, let alone 6-0 quickbanned. It was B-tier for a reason: very little usage (10% or less every round), and when it did show up, it had a horrible win rate (under 40% every week in the AAA money tour). I really do think the council should have provided some replays for this mon considering there was no discussion surrounding it leading up to the ban. I guess one upside to banning Houndstone is that it leaving really doesn't impact the meta negatively but that's not a mindset we should have when tiering. I would really like to see the ban reversed considering I don't really how this could possible be construed as broken.

:orthworm: :cyclizar:
Coming back to Shed Tail real quick, I would just like to say that the bans that have taken place have done nothing to limit the absurdity of the playstyle. You can just replace Bax with SD Chien-Pao/SS Cloyster; although there are obvious downsides, the playstyle performs more or less the same, still autowinning games because your counter to Polteageist can't actually do anything to it behind a Sub, or you gave Orth a single free turn and now you are screwed. I don't see a reason to keep this around, it's fun to abuse but I am straight-up tired of auto-losing because I did not play perfectly around Orth and friends, and it takes the game out of the player's hands. I still think that Orth is the main issue considering fast Shed Tail is much worse than slow Shed Tail + Orth has great physical bulk that lets it get up a Shed Tail in the first place, but I'm perfectly fine with just nuking the move as a whole.

:xatu: :hatterene:
It is time. The Great Tusks have fallen. Corvid, overwhelmed by Stealth Rock and GaG mons, desperately needs assistance. Hazards are omnipresent, moreso than any other point in Gen 9 AAA. The Magic Bouncers will rise again!

In all seriousness, I still believe that both Magic Bounce bans in last gen and this gen were grave mistakes. Last gen it solved like one problem that wasn't even that serious imo and failed to address the 200 other problems with the tier, because the 20+ equally viable breakers that rose the power level of the tier to an unmanageable amount sure was balanced am I right guys? I don't think I even saw any broken applications of it this gen before it was yeeted in the same slate that POISON HEAL was, it felt premature and only really done because it was banned last gen. SAC makes double Regen cores unfeasible so one of the main ways of abusing MB suddenly does not exist. The other main MB abusers, Screen setters, were all heavily nerfed since none of them get Taunt (or at least none as fast as Tapu Koko get Taunt), and GaG is able to deny a majority of the Screens counterplay (Defog, fast Taunts) about as well as MB did. Being able to get hazards up vs Screens setters now is obviously a big difference but considering all the 2x weak/4x weak/Sash mons in the tier are either nerfed (Zard), can run Boots (Pao), are better on Shed Tail (Polt), or just straight up don't care (Bax before it got banned), I wouldn't classify this as a big enough change to keep MB banned. Overall I think there's a case for this to be reintroduced back, and I would like to see a suspect on it. (also I really wanna use Table Stall again and not have to use shit like Bramblegoat to win)

:magnezone:
I'm not saying we should unban Magnet Pull...BUT
 
Hyper-Go-ons said:
As you know that Queenly Majesty / Dazzling / Armor Tail block Extreme Speed.

Here's some of my checks / counters to Dragonite:

282.png
+ Queenly Majesty / Dazzling / Armor Tail - Althrough it has the same base speed as Dragonite, It can Taunt it and cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. It Needs to watch out for Facade, Carry a Focus Sash in case. There can be Speed Tie wars with Dragonite and Gardevoir if they both have Max Speed.

995.png
+ Earth Eater - With 1/4 Resistance to Flying and Earth Eater, the only Thing that can Hurt Iron Thorns is Low Kick, it will get OHKOed by it useless it has a Chople Berry, it can Avoid the OHKO.

+1 252 Atk Dragonite Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chople Berry Iron Thorns: 184-217 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Iron Thorns Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 384-452 (118.8 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Iron Thorns Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 384-452 (118.8 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

462.png
+ Earth Eater - It also has 1/4 Resistance to Flying, Running a Max Defense set is prefered for this, as it gets 2HKOed by +1 Low Kick. Magnezone can cripple Dragonite with Thunder Wave and set up Iron Defense to sponge out hits.

448.png
+ Refrigerate - Lucario can outspeed an unboosted Jolly Dragonite with Max Speed and OHKO it back with its own move. Give Dragonite a taste of its own medicine with Refrigerate Extreme Speed!
Click to expand...
your post is honestly pointless and adds nothing, the only "good" set would be Dazzling Gardevoir which can probably do a decent job outside of "just" checking Dragonite but that's still not a great set, but don't talk of Taunt or Focus Sash that's just... trash sets
It even feels insulting to mention Earth Eater Chople Iron Thorns which has the merit to be the worst Pokemon I've ever seen, does nothing, doesn't even "check" Dragonite since you can be Low Kick'd on the switch, same for Magnezone, and Lucario just lose after one DD...

My post certainly has flaws and they are decent checks to Dragonite that I didn't mention but honestly if it's just to pull up 4 random mons with bad moves and bad abilities that can kinda check Dragonite, it is as best an exemple of how stupid it is if you really need to run shitmons like this, at worse a pointless post that adds nothing and will not help anyone at anytime bc no one is gonna use those sets anyway

idk if you're trolling, but I would be glad if you could stop that when we're trying to have real discussions and not here to post meme sets
 
so i may as well add something constructive to the thread

:ss/magnezone:
i don't know why, in a meta that everyone fears will be completely overrun by hazards, you'd want to free the thing that invalidates the easiest and most splashable removal option. magpull just does not make sense to free realistically ever, but especially not at this time. in fact it'd be even more problematic than before since you'd also trap treads, our best spin user too, which is great fun indeed.

:ss/hatterene:
bounce existing dissuades hazard spam from just being instant spikes leads every game but i don't think it will solve the problem. my earliest days of playing BH have told me that you do not under any circumstance rely on magic bounce as your sole hazard control (unless you're specifically trying to throw), so this ends up just adding a third fish to the hazard game (a. is your defogger blocked by gold, b. is your spinner spinblocked or losing long-term, and now c. can you even set hazards to begin with) which just doesn't seem like a good call right now. freeing it might cut hazards through bounce simply existing alone, but i do not think the meta becomes better long-term with it free.

:sv/quaquaval:
there are no bulky spinners with non-regen recovery unless you fancy using avalugg or cryogonal (which i don't), and home isn't changing this as the only 2 spinners are avalugg-hisui (neutral to fire i guess? but still has piss poor spdef) and eleki (no recovery, no tera). what this basically means is that we need a solution long-term unless we fancy either suffering or going 2AC to free double regen and mguard. there just isn't a lot to work with and i fear the best people are going to be using is spdef quaq and immunity/regen treads, which are less than stellar and doesn't help much with meta diversity. relying solely on defog is also questionable when all viable users are flying and only one is offensive (unless we're really at the point where hawlucha is a defog option).

:sm/dragonite:
osake's largely right IMO in that dnite has essentially become a coverage fish at this point. unless you fancy using regen rotom-fan, the majority of checks can be teched past with coverage options or in many cases just dragon danced past. rev killing also isn't feasible, as LO hatterene is the only mon that out-prioritizes and doesn't even break 90% on 0 HP / 0 SpD (plus just eats an espeed, takes 2/3 from +0, and then never safely switches in again) and everything else gets out-prioritized (no we are not using fridge fake out weavile). can probably see this as the next ban.

:sv/gholdengo:
much of this panic about hazards is early days so i don't feel that a good as gold QB is instantly necessary, but i can definitely see it in the future. it definitely seems like the easiest way to fix severe removal issues if they do appear (which i expect) but only 1 regen might naturally inhibit setters enough? only time can really tell but with money tour and open there shouldn't be a shortage of data.
 
Re: Magnet pull
Absolutely not lmao.

Re: Houndstone
As the one who ended up writing that bit of the banpost, I suppose it falls to me to fill in anything left unexplained. First off, with regards to the number of answers… that’s a bit misleading. For instance, Talonflame is actually slower than Scarf Hound, making it a very poor choice of answer,whereas some of the scarfers like Greninja don’t even kill, meaning even if you’re running dark pulse you have to hope you have enough sacks left for your houndstone check to actually check houndstone - especially annoying considering that if you’re making use of it as your check, houndstone can start coming in at 3 or 4 mins down and start claiming kills, making things more dicey. When it comes to priority, most of them don’t kill either, and die in return; while there are exceptions like sucker punch meowscarada, this often means you end up needing multiple priority users to win. Running resists is also fraught, with Pokémon like max HP roaring moon being one shot by the scarf set. Altogether it forms a situation where offense and balance teams are significantly restrained both in the builder with what they can bring and in battle with what they can afford to risk into potential lures, all to still potentially lose if it turns out to be, say, surge surfer instead. Much like with strategies like fullpass chains, a team actually proofed against hound will probably never lose to it. The issue is that running the prep needed for that is restrictive and if you don’t it creates an undesirable amount of fish.

Re: Shed tail
Not much to say, this is pretty dumb. Banning Bax made it less mindless but that is more relative. Wouldn’t mind voting on this in the near future.

Re: Hazards
I think the current state is unquestionably not okay. It’s too easy to block defog with GaG, and too easy to block spin with ghosts. I’ve been making use of shadow ball bramble, but that only works as long as people are lazy about their spin blocking, there’s no shortage of stuff that can beat bramble, Donphan, Treads and Quaquaval in 2 slots while still being viable. Magic Bounce would probably help, at least in that regard, but I’d rather just ban GaG frankly.
 
:iron leaves: IWON WEAVES :iron leaves:

Iron Leaves has amazing synergy with two abilities: Electric Surge and Sharpness. I personally think ESurge is better, as Psyblade becomes 120 BP and you boost Wild Charge

Sets for Iron Leaves

Iron Leaves @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpDef/4 Speed
Tera: Psychic/Electric (idk)
-Swords Dance
-Psyblade
-Leaf Blade
-Wild Charge
Jolly Nature

Does me talking about Iron Leaves make it good, no, a 4x U-Turn weakness is still super shitty​
 
:cinderace: :corviknight: :garganacl: :kilowattrel: :roaring-moon: :talonflame: Triple Weather Quadruple Bird

No surprises coming from me, lots of pivots, lots of fast guys. Team does a pretty good job of keeping up the pressure, has a few setup wincons, Talonflame 6-0s far too many teams but y'all aren't ready for that conversation yet. You have to play kinda dumb against Dragonite, but it's not entirely hopeless, and it's a fun team either way.
 
:Brambleghast: <-- team

So i made this team shortly after the bans and its been working decently well.
In short a couple cool things about this team is being spike stack you always need something to stop hazards and bramble is looking like its best friend , being pretty bulky , blocking rapid spins and defog with Good As Gold its a pain to deal with. I will admit ive been having a bit of issues setting hazards up with ting-lu but if it comes into something like corv it can come in , set a layer of something and switch right out, bramble having seed/sap has been life saving and defenetly a pain ( tried fluffy bramble and its worked too so if you prefer that then go ahead ).
A couple things , cinderace with moldbreaker beats alot of mons , wbb being a problem it can now burn/hit them, uturn for mons like pex/primordial see if it happens plus its quite fast.
And gambit having low kick has been great to beat the dittos and mons like ting lu.
Now one problem is no priority which isnt a horrible thing but its kinda annoying.

:)
 
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TheSerotoninVibes said:
:Brambleghast: <-- team

So i made this team shortly after the bans and its been working decently well.
In short a couple cool things about this team is being spike stack you always need something to stop hazards and bramble is looking like its best friend , being pretty bulky , blocking rapid spins and defog with Good As Gold its a pain to deal with. I will admit ive been having a bit of issues setting hazards up with ting-lu but if it comes into something like corv it can come in , set a layer of something and switch right out, bramble having seed/sap has been life saving and defenetly a pain ( tried fluffy bramble and its worked too so if you prefer that then go ahead ).
A couple things , cinderace with moldbreaker beats alot of mons , wbb being a problem it can now burn/hit them, uturn for mons like pex/primordial see if it happens plus its quite fast.
And gambit having low kick has been great to beat the dittos and mons like ting lu.
Now one problem is no priority which isnt a horrible thing but its kinda annoying.

:)
Click to expand...
Dragapult is super banned :worrywhirl: so this won't work
 

:sv/Gholdengo: Good as Gold is banned :sv/Gholdengo:
​
You might've already seen this one coming, but...
With Defog distribution more or less reduced to Corviknight (or horrific atrocities like using Defog Talonflame, Oricorio, or Hawlucha), the presence of an ability that so thoroughly enables hazard-stacking styles of play is hard to miss. When paired with spinblockers (typically Brambleghast), users like Garganacl, Skeledirge, and even Corviknight itself were able to take advantage of laughably easy anti-Defog matchups into opposing Corviknight and keep entry hazards up for the entire game without much drawback. While stall teams were the most well equipped to take advantage of such a playstyle, the consistency with which they were able to progress towards a win is what pushed Good as Gold over the edge. While one could argue that Brambleghast's proficiency for spinblocking also played a role, the reality is that spinblocking is not new feature and has almost always been balanced out by being able to Defog or just using Scrappy/-ate abilities to break through the Ghost-types. There isn't much ground to argue that Myecellium Might/Mold Breaker Corviknight is healthy Pokemon; the fact that it even became an option in an attempt to counter Good as Gold teams is practically the definition of unhealthy.

IsaiahUTJordanQTLordBoxDFMAthaRESULT
Quickban Good as Gold?BANBANDNBBANBANABSBAN5-1-1 BAN

Tagging Kris and Marty for implementation.

*Note: Since the council now has 7 members, quickbans will need at least 60% ban votes to pass. e.g. 5-2-0 works, 5-1-1 works, 4-2-1 works, but 4-3-0 would not. Otherwise, the council will re-discuss or (in the case of a split vote) consider a suspect test to settle the decision.

Next steps

We've had a lot of bans within the last several days, and with AAA Open (and possibly Home) on the horizon, who knows what's in store! There will probably be a mini survey in the near future to gauge how people are feeling about everything in the meta after these changes; otherwise, everyone is encouraged to keep building/playing/posting to further metagame development :]
 
:sv/Corviknight:
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Whatever you want
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Defog
- Brave Bird / Body Press
- U-turn / Bulk Up
- Roost

New set I just came up with. Does a decent job of removing hazards from users like Garchomp and Meowscarada, which I really like.

Super quick and basic team that has Ice Beam Blissey because I'm beginning to realize that Zoroark-Hisui is an absolute menace:
:Meowscarada::Corviknight::Garchomp::Talonflame::Toxapex::Blissey:
 
I'd just like to clarify that my vote had everything to do with believing there was a world Magic Bounce + GaG could coexist, or at least give it a change, and nothing to do with how broken GaG was at this current moment, which was very dumb and broken
 
Been messing around with physically defensive stamina Oricorio-G. Turns Corviknight, Treads, Quaquaval, Garganacl (yes, even with Salt Cure & Sand Stream), and any dark type that runs Knock Off as its STAB into setup fodder and flying/ghost is an excellent STAB combo that crushes anything short of Kingambit or Ting-Lu with a boost or two. Its most common use is switching in to a Corviknight on Defog, then getting the defense boost from their U-turn while you QD and create a beast of a mon. I originally started running it as a Tusk counter but its been surprisingly effective beyond that.

Oricorio-Sensu @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Roost
- Air Slash
- Revelation Dance
 
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Team
After discovering that Chien-Pao MGuard was surely the best "replacement" for baxcalibur I decided to create with him a team that was fun at first but that finally proved to be very efficient to play so I post it here.
The principle is simple : put spikes and sr so that Roaring Moon or Chien Pao make kills. I put a Sandy Shock scarf to add some speed and with his access to spikes and volt switch he helps RMoon&CPao a lot to put pressure on the opponent.
Corv with Intimidate to make it easier to manage dnite.
Ting-Lu to deal with pokemon like Sandy Shock while being able to put hazards (sr/spikes) and Quaq to have a response to pokemon like greninja while being able to spin and put pressure
If you want more explanation about the team contact me at my discord LSDA#3908
(I hope my English is not too bad ;-; )
 
Gonna share a set I've been cooking

Zoroark-Hisui @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Grass Knot
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast/Flamethrower/Psychic/Will-O

Alt EVs: 48 Atk / 208 SpA / 252 Spe

Grass knot lets it act as a bit of a wallbreaker, ohko'ing donzo and physically defensive variants of gargnacl and donphan, 2hkoing spdef donphan (while surviving eq) as well as hurting attackers weak to it like sandy shocks and quaqauval (greninja's light weight makes it require chip to ko reliably)

Knock off lets it deal with ghost types like gengar and opposing hisuzor, as well as being able to take on a set up polteageist sash and all (koff makes you immune to stored power and resistant enough to shadow ball to avoid the ohko), in addition of course it also allows you to punish switchins by removing their item alongside doing decent damage

u-turn is a pivot, plain and simple, the only remarkable thing to mention is that it gets boosted by protean to do more damage than most pivots

the last slot is mostly going to be team dependent based on what you want to hit with it, not much else to say here as the calcs are pretty unremarkable

we cant forget to mention the base typing allows it to be a serviceable albeit risky spinblocker (especially with it being able to kill donphan and quaq), as well as being immune to predicted ghost/fighting type attacks

252 SpA Protean Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 540-636 (107.1 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
208 SpA Protean Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garganacl: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Protean Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 476-564 (123.9 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Protean Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 210-248 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Protean Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sandy Shocks: 290-344 (93.2 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
204 SpA Protean Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Quaquaval: 312-368 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Protean Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 254-300 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Zoroark-Hisui (grass): 105-125 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Donphan Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Zoroark-Hisui (grass): 137-162 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Protean Zoroark-Hisui Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 318-374 (121.8 - 143.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Protean Zoroark-Hisui Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 318-374 (126.6 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Protean Zoroark-Hisui Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Polteageist: 450-530 (172.4 - 203%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Polteageist Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zoroark-Hisui (dark): 202-238 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

errata: changed format of alternate EV mention for easier copy pasting
errata 2: added psychic to list of slot 4 move options since it can break pex and help revenge kill psychic weak stuff
 
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Sharing an analytical reasoning based team, because I like maths :)

Q1: What is the most OP sweeper in the metagame now?
A: CB/DD Aerilate Dragonite (might be banned by the time I finish this post, but I'd like future generations to know)

Q2: What is the single-most common Pokemon in AAA, especially with GaG banned?
A: Corviknight

Q3: What's a fairly viable/common check to DNite that stops it rampaging?
A: Also Corviknight

Q4: What also loves switching into harmless fairy types?
A: Also Corviknight

Q5: How do you make something harmless hit hard?
A: Tinted lens :)

250px-0282Gardevoir.png
Gardevoir @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psyshock
- Draining Kiss
- Trick

Presenting the core-of my stall-breaker team. Nothing rocket-science about it really, switch in safe via predict/ slow u-turn & spam Moonblast. And just watch the world steel type checks burn.
Psyshock since Blissey is starting to get annoying. Trick is an occasional saviour against Kingambit.

Some calcs, for the ones who also love maths
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 282-332 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Orthworm: 280-330 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads: 220-260 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 214-252 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Full team
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Scarf Sword of Ruin Meowscarada is a sweet revenge killer + Corv bait.
DesoLand Cinderace with Court Change was one of my favorites last gen, although this is before GaG ban so I might reconsider that slot.
Ting-Lu + Corv for standard tanking
CB Nite YOLO until ban, Garde generally takes care of its chacks

And don't forget to spam harmless Moonblasts :)
 
Osake said:
Dragonite is broken and needs to go

It's obviously early in the new meta so even if I take a confident tone in this post we probably still need time but I had absurd sucess with it in the games I played and it overall feels too strong and restricting.
Even if Dragonite was "fine" until now I think the change of metagame and the ban of 3 mons that could handle it/prevent setup (Ice Spinner Tusk and eventually Armor Tail, Gholdengo cuz Gholdengo lol, and Baxcalibur who lives ESpeed at +1) is huge for such a powerful Pokemon.

Even if Isaiah keeps saying that Dragonite is bad, I heavly disagree with him now ; let's not forget that it's a 600 BST mon, with 91/95/100 bulk which is huge (Corviknight is only 98/105/85 for example) as well as 134 in Attack, access to powerful moves, and a decent SpA of 100 which allows it to run special moves to bait its usual answers.

Speaking of the usual answers of Dragonite, they are rare and often bad, or lead to bad/shaky structure (like Corv + Dazzling mon). I've won many games with Dragonite casually clicking Dragon Dance and being unkillable afterwards bc Roost lets it farm passive answers like Corviknight (unless it's Iron Press Corvi but that's a very specific set that can still lose to some Dnite variants lol)

Let's take a look at all the moves Dragonite can use, which allows a decent versatility and can be hard to account for a single team without specific tricks (i.e. random Dazzling mons that would prefer a better ability)

:sv/dragonite:
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Choice Band / Sharp Beak / Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Aerilate (or defensive abilities like Fluffy/very weird ones like SF but I'm only talking of Aerilate here which is by far the best set)
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def (you may want some Spe EVs but a) people will usually not assume you're 0 speed b) Max HP Dragonite is super bulky, it allows you to check stuff like Ceruledge, non-Ice Spinner Quaqua, Cinderace, etc, and to take his + threaten an ESpeed and it's quite strong) (obv don't run that without Roost)
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance - Mandatory move #1 unless you need to bait something very specific
- Extreme Speed - Mandatory move #2, basically kills everything offensive, offers Speed Control, etc
Options
- Roost - best third move on 90% of the Dragonite because it means Corviknight is often free setup, you have an actualy utility outside of just being a sweeper, etc
- Low Kick - Best fourth move in general, which I discovered thanks to LordBox owning me with it, it destroys Garganacl, Kingambit, hits every Corviknight, Iron Treads, almost everything that can be used as a middle ground vs Dragonite + has 32 PP which means you can PP Stall Unaware Corviknight
- Fire Punch/Thunder Punch/Earthquake - other moves that you may want for specific uses (targetting fluffy etc)
- Encore/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Dragon Tail/Draco Meteor/Facade/Ice Beam/Ice Spinner/Hurricane/Hyper Beam/Substitute - literally anything you want if you want to bait something. Obviously those aren't good/optimal moves but if we go into a meta with Dondozo in every team to check Dragonite, you could just use Thunderbolt and kills it ; if that was your only answer, too bad, you lose ; and if you're packing 2 or 3 Dragonite's checks, well that is an unhealthy mon lol

Because, yeah, what really checks Dragonite ? If you look at the VR (although not fully updated, but that still gives an idea) :
- Corviknight is free setup unless you're Idef Press (even then, you can lose if you're para'd/if it's flame or tbolt dnite, even tpunch at +1 does a lot +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 192-228 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)

- Garganacl is mid rn and takes a lot on Low Kick (252+ Atk Dragonite Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Full Def Garg is bad but you're 2HKO'd on the switch after rocks)

-Dragonite obviously doesn't come on itself (unless i's Fluffy Ice Spinner but guess what.. you don't even OHKO without invests 0 Atk Dragonite Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 308-364 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and you're almost 2HKO'd at +1 so with any chip you lose)

- Cinderace loses and is even farmed by Dragonite unless it's WoW or Band DesolateLand but you die on ESpeed after Rocks

- Iron Moth is farmed unless Discharge Para

- Kingambit dies on Low-Kick and EQ/Fire Punch if you have the wrong ability (252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 163-193 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO btw)

- Roaring Moon actually lives ESpeed at +1 but.. fails to OHKO
etc etc

All the offensive mons overall die, if you're looking for answers through the VR you can see :
-Scream Tail : Actually works except that Dazzling Geam does 0 so you'll have to rely on paras to beat it (which "works" but is not a very reliable gameplan)
-Dondozo : works in general, but you're weak to TBolt even if it's not common, it's shit with Rest in my opinion so you rely on Protect or Regenerator to heal, and you're weak to hazards / I'm not saying Dondozo doesn't work, it will often work, but a good player with a good team will always be able to weaken it and eventually have a chance so it's not even a hard wall
- WoW Skeledirge : usually works but you need full def to be able to come on Earthquake
- Intimidate Hippowdown : ok this one is bad but if you want a 100% check to Dragonite I guess this works

I didn't mention "fast" mons that resist Extreme Speed, they can work, issue being that.. they are often unable to OHKO Dragonite lol so you need yo play carefully and weaken it and even then they can just.. switch-out if needed, and if you take any chip (with hazards for example), you lose.

There are other options that aren't in the VR but can do the work, Regenerator Donphan (which needs to be full life + to have the RH + be Full Def to actually win according to Siamato who did the set), Tinkaton (cool mon tbh), and others that I don't have in mind/didn't use, but Dragonite feels too restricting, annihilates HO, is hard to deal with, can easily win games on the spot so you are forced to run suboptimal sets that aren't even hard counter, and you can always lose to a random bait bc of it's absurd movepool

Dragonite had a nice run, it was cool to see it free for a while in gen9, but I believe it has to end, sorry little dragon :c

Didn't save them all cuz the server was hella lagging + ladders replays aren't the best, I wrote this post after my afternoon laddering where I saw that Dragonite was quite hard to deal with, but I already saw that it was shaky in the builder, both before and even more now
I used this team which is not optimized I literally took 3 minutes to make it (Spikes Meow for example sucks af, it's just cuz I wanted to build Spikes Meow + GaG at first but it's bad), but it's actually quite fun to play and offensive, Ace guarantees the MU vs GaG spam and you have a lot of enough pressure with Donphan + Tinkaton doing an amazing job, I usually win with Tink + Donph + Dragonite, Tink + Dnite is p good actually since you can knock and para corv and then Dnite beats it lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1818932452 vs jrdn
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1818918313-baplqkctg6l956z31ar9k1j1hp6ku30pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1818697880 ik opponent was weak to dnite.. and it straight up wins lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1818678957-lyj9m83jhh23lky62yzyya32zujf0r5pw

not the most relevant replays but the only one I saved, but still better than nothing !

(oh btw GaG needs to go, or unban Bounce but even if I like this ability I don't really believe it would solve the issue)

anyway, good night, take care (except Siamato noob)

:heart: :heart:
Click to expand...

dnite can only break corv if its para'd or dnite has the right coverage, that thunder punch calc doesnt work against volt absorb or fluffy, it needs thuner punch for wbb, fire punch for volt absorb, and flamethrower/fire blast for fluffy, and if you guess wrong you get walled, and its boned against intimidate, and this

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 102-121 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Dragonite Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 133-157 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 12.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

is not enough to break corv
 
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