-
The leaders of this forum are dhelmise, Giagantic, and KaenSoul. The moderators of this forum are berry, Chessking345, April, kenn, Ransei, and Tea Guzzler.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2024 Smog Awards!
AAA Almost Any Ability
- Thread starter LordBox
- Start date
Bitter Blade and Matcha Gotcha not interacting with Triage is intentional. Healing moves need an internal flag for Triage to recognize them and give them boosted priority, and both Bitter Blade and Matcha Gotcha lack this flag. We replicate what happens on cart, and if you use Triage Bitter Blade on cart, it does not receive the priority boost.
I said I was gonna quit laddering... but like a desperate crack addict, I returned, and managed to atleast secure a tied rank 1 (
Sample Submission Time
(This one is probably better) 
pokepast.es/ca5cfb86dad3f8c6 official paste if it somehow gets turned into a sample
These teams (mostly the first one) got me a pretty decent run on ladder, and i saw that there were no samples for
and , who i both feel are very good at the moment thanks to everyone (including myself) only running as their physical wall, which both of these two can bruteforce through pretty easily.Ill quickly go through the team, as it requires you to sometimes make quite aggressive plays in order to win.
- Really fuckin' strong breaker, always 2hkoes and is also generally hard to switch into unless you're running WBB Ghold, which you have to scout for in case. First Impression hits really hard aswell, and we have Hadron Shocks to be able to override Azelf's Psychic Surge which helps in late-game scenarios sometimes. - You all probably know what Corviknight does, and there's not much else to explain - Manaphy is also straightforward, standard regenvester that can remove pesky Rocky Helmets and also helps Slither Guarantee 2hko on corv (as opposed to only 2hkoing 91.8% of the time lol) - Suprisingly annoying for the opponent to take down, paraspam is really annoying for the opponent and helps Slither aswell. Walls out all ogerpon formes aswell as Dragonite. You could probably run Colbur berry but i cba to change it - Chien-Pao, but it can actually use both of its STAB at the same time, really broken especially after you remove the Corviknight it can outright wins a lot of games. Also trolls low-ladders who bring 
- Speed control + hazard setter, works really well in this meta thanks to the common Corviknight + Manaphy core and is also really strong overallJust some quick things to worry about:
PrimSea
- Unless you're getting every predict right on the Weather Ball/Thunder Non-Choiced
Really hard to switch into, and is also not the easiest to predict since Scarf is more common, thankfully Slither can tank a couble of hits, so try to overwhelm the opponent before they get a chance to destroy you.You. the Player - Just some general tips, but ladder can be extremely frustrating to play at times, and the biggest mistake i did was to play either while i was tilted or while autopiloting, which will lose you a lot of games, so take breaks if needed and you will play significantly better.
Uhh, anyways thats it for me, have a continued good day/evening/night!
Edit: Actually got rank 1 lol
Last edited:
Bringing to you... Swiftie Bulky Offense! Nicknames courtesey of Orangex tsym :D
Dragonite is most commonly known for its Aerilate sets, which works to its advantage here, where it runs a specially attacking Sheer Force set. Hurricane for STAB, Bolt Beam for unresisted coverage, and Roost for longevity. It lures many would-be physical checks and smacks them very hard. You could go mixed if you wanted to smack RegenVesters harder, ie Dragon Rush over Roost.
It's an Azelf! (This one is Modest because most of the time you don't need the speed boosting nature, it's fast enough just don't get knocked LOL)
Probably the premier regenvester at the moment. This Roaring Moon is EV'd to outspeed Sheer Force Thundy-I, with full bulk investment and other EVs dumped in Special Defense. It is also a scarily efficent progress maker, with Knock Off for STAB and item removal, U-Turn to generate momentum, and Earthquake for great coverage. Dragon Tail is to emergency phase out setup sweepers.
This is the PERFECT partner for Roaring Moon. Empoleon very neatly handles the Azelfs and Walking Wakes that Roaring Moon struggles to handle with and grants the team an electric resist (don't get rolled by moldy). This Empoleon was originally Surf over Stealth Rock for decent damage output, but Stealth Rock is great for Azelf calcs and the team was lacking a rocker. Who needs U-Turn anyway... This Corv would be U-Turn if this team had removal elsewhere, unfortunately it doesn't so Defog is mandantory for emergency removal. Corviknight functions as one of the strongest physical walls in the metagame, and Bulk Up allows it to become far less passive. Iron Defense Body Press over BU Brave Bird is another option that functions just as well here.
Toxapex is one of the most infuriating mons to ever grace the game, and here it abuses a particularly nasty ability: Toxic Debris. Infestation + Toxic allows it to trap mons and deal huge amounts of damage, and any mons trying to U-Turn out have to contend with a layer of Toxic Spikes going up. Toxapex doesn't have anything to touch Corv, but sending it in and allowing it to shit on Corv is funny (if the Corv is not a BU variant LOL)Team weaknesses
-
Mold Breaker Electrics can overwhelm the defensive core if Roaring Moon gets low and hazards are up.-
Gholdengo is generally handled well by Roaring Moon and out-offensed well enough by Azelf, but the matchup does require slightly more careful play-
In quite ironic fashion nothing here stands up to mixed Dragonite, so be EXTREMELY careful into Dragonite.-
Hazard Stack can be difficult to deal with once Corviknight goes down. In an ideal world you try to keep it off as much as possible by pressuring the opponent with Roaring Moon, Azelf, and Dragonite, but the team can get worn down easily if not careful.- I can't think of anything else but I'm sure someone else can
Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1977406736-6etsi1rlyd8yesdwb7vhch8lb2ivxsopw vs Giagantica, this one gets close
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1977263140-00bx4icrrjc8zezu04kdvwak7q1vd6npw my opponent got a bit toxic :(
Thank you for reading, and have a great day!
Food for thought: What if AAA legality was based only on abilities that exist in the vanilla version of the game? More specifically, abilities such as Primordial Sea, Desolate Land, and Triage would no longer be usable since there aren't any legally obtainable Pokemon that can use those abilities.
Some considerations I thought of if the meta transformed in this way:
- To balance out the somewhat reduced number of usable options, maybe native abilities would come back? Notably, this would free Imposter Ditto. Dunno if adding restrictions would be necessary for playability though, so perhaps not.
- Weather teams would probably become stronger. For example, without Primordial Sea, something like Zapdos can't end rain by switching into Drizzle Corviknight and then switching out, meaning that counterplay would potentially require more immunities or actual use of opposing weather (Sand Stream Garganacl returns...?).
- Certain legality questions would no longer require any deliberation (i.e. Why does Triage not work with X? Doesn't matter, Triage isn't usable anyway).
Thoughts? This isn't a notice of the tier being massively changed without warning or anything; it's basically just theorymon. The metagame functions really well as is, and any massive changes are worth thinking about but wouldn't become reality without fairly lengthy discussion and a lot of support.
Some considerations I thought of if the meta transformed in this way:
- To balance out the somewhat reduced number of usable options, maybe native abilities would come back? Notably, this would free Imposter Ditto. Dunno if adding restrictions would be necessary for playability though, so perhaps not.
- Weather teams would probably become stronger. For example, without Primordial Sea, something like Zapdos can't end rain by switching into Drizzle Corviknight and then switching out, meaning that counterplay would potentially require more immunities or actual use of opposing weather (Sand Stream Garganacl returns...?).
- Certain legality questions would no longer require any deliberation (i.e. Why does Triage not work with X? Doesn't matter, Triage isn't usable anyway).
Thoughts? This isn't a notice of the tier being massively changed without warning or anything; it's basically just theorymon. The metagame functions really well as is, and any massive changes are worth thinking about but wouldn't become reality without fairly lengthy discussion and a lot of support.
I strongly oppose this proposed change. We have seen time and time again how much Dexit can hurt OMs, and making a change that makes AAA more succeptible to it seems like a bad play. For example, we would have been without Magic Guard until recently.
Unless we also apply this to BH, it brings in a weird split between our ability based metas where some can use any ability, and some can use only abilities on Pokemon in game.
I very strongly oppose bringing back restricted abilities; "any pokemon gets any non-banned ability" is way cleaner than "any pokemon gets any non-banned ability, excpet for these guys." Especially since other than Ditto, it's hard to imagine what restricted abilities would even be used, let alone healthy.
I really don't get the point of this proposal; other than removing the question of "why doesn't Bitter Blade work" it solves no issues while removing key elements of the meta and potentially complicating the banlist.
Unless we also apply this to BH, it brings in a weird split between our ability based metas where some can use any ability, and some can use only abilities on Pokemon in game.
I very strongly oppose bringing back restricted abilities; "any pokemon gets any non-banned ability" is way cleaner than "any pokemon gets any non-banned ability, excpet for these guys." Especially since other than Ditto, it's hard to imagine what restricted abilities would even be used, let alone healthy.
I really don't get the point of this proposal; other than removing the question of "why doesn't Bitter Blade work" it solves no issues while removing key elements of the meta and potentially complicating the banlist.
So first: Annihilape is being suspect tested back into the tier!
Next, there's been some back and forth discussion on Triage and Triage users within the last 1-2 months, so the council decided to put it to a vote and see if it's worth freeing two of the biggest users in Ursaluna and Hariyama.
As you can see, they're both staying banned for the timebeing. Perhaps metagame shifts might change this voting precedent, though! (see: DLC 2 in a month)
Next, there's been some back and forth discussion on Triage and Triage users within the last 1-2 months, so the council decided to put it to a vote and see if it's worth freeing two of the biggest users in Ursaluna and Hariyama.
| Isaiah | QT | DFM | LordBox | Ivar57 | Atha | Tranquility | Result | |
| Ursaluna | KEEP BANNED | KEEP BANNED | KEEP BANNED | KEEP BANNED | KEEP BANNED | KEEP BANNED | KEEP BANNED | 0-7 KEEP BANNED |
| Hariyama | KEEP BANNED | UNBAN | UNBAN | UNBAN | KEEP BANNED | KEEP BANNED | KEEP BANNED | 3-4 KEEP BANNED |
Last edited:
Annihilape @ Leftovers
Ability: Triage / some random immunity ability idk
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 132 Def / 60 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Rage Fist
- Bulk Up
- Substitute
been using this set lately - lives up to 4 hits from cb tech weavile's icicle spear, primsea zap's hurricane, and lets the sub survive all attacks from regenvest manaphy while outspeeding random max speed base 50 mons and other apes with 0 speed invest. the physical bulk also just helps switch-in safely in general. triage makes ape even more scary endgame but some random immunity ability could probably work on HO
(vote to keep annihilape banned btw this thing is broken)
Ability: Triage / some random immunity ability idk
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 132 Def / 60 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Rage Fist
- Bulk Up
- Substitute
been using this set lately - lives up to 4 hits from cb tech weavile's icicle spear, primsea zap's hurricane, and lets the sub survive all attacks from regenvest manaphy while outspeeding random max speed base 50 mons and other apes with 0 speed invest. the physical bulk also just helps switch-in safely in general. triage makes ape even more scary endgame but some random immunity ability could probably work on HO
(vote to keep annihilape banned btw this thing is broken)
Has anyone given thought to Fluffy Manaphy? Seems like a meme set, but fire resistance nulls the weakness given by Fluffy and the extra physical bulk can let it live long enough to set up a tail glow and do some devastation if it has Leftovers.
Fluffy Manaphy has been a thing since day 1 of DLC, there are various ways to approach it set wise from Stored Power Scald Acid Armour Take Heart to potentially other sets with Tail Glow for more immediate power. You can even just run Take Heart Manaphy with Fluffy and max defense with a bunch of coverage moves. In short, Manaphy is very flexible if it seems like a good ability on it, it probably is simply due to how splashable the mon is with it's 100 base stats, water typing, and movepool.
Last edited:
i think we should ban toxic debris, or at least suspect it after omwc ends
this is mainly because of the strength of moon hazard stack builds. i said it better in the discord so i'll just paste what i said below (ignore the first line, idt moon should be banned anymore)
the base idea is that hazard stack is too strong now that it has a stronger knocker than ever before (moon), but i also think the meta shifts have made it harder and harder to actually run debris counterplay without feeling constrained in builder, so you just end up coping with tusk or corvid that lose to moon long term, and the only solution to this is to win faster via your own tdebris mon. i think that the interactions and playstyles tdebris enables are unhealthy for the tier, as it's very hard to deviate from the standard defensive cores like tusk + corvid + tspikes absorber + ghold/zappy without actively putting yourself at a disadvantage, or just full-on committing to the fat hazard stack build. apologies if this sounds incomprehensible, i just think this is something you need to play against to understand it.
anyone else have thoughts on tdebris? i think it's possible ape being suspected is making these builds stronger than they would usually be but at the same time i can see these builds becoming an nusiance in omwc (even though there are like 3 games left unfortunately but whatever) and post omwc as well.
this is mainly because of the strength of moon hazard stack builds. i said it better in the discord so i'll just paste what i said below (ignore the first line, idt moon should be banned anymore)
the base idea is that hazard stack is too strong now that it has a stronger knocker than ever before (moon), but i also think the meta shifts have made it harder and harder to actually run debris counterplay without feeling constrained in builder, so you just end up coping with tusk or corvid that lose to moon long term, and the only solution to this is to win faster via your own tdebris mon. i think that the interactions and playstyles tdebris enables are unhealthy for the tier, as it's very hard to deviate from the standard defensive cores like tusk + corvid + tspikes absorber + ghold/zappy without actively putting yourself at a disadvantage, or just full-on committing to the fat hazard stack build. apologies if this sounds incomprehensible, i just think this is something you need to play against to understand it.
anyone else have thoughts on tdebris? i think it's possible ape being suspected is making these builds stronger than they would usually be but at the same time i can see these builds becoming an nusiance in omwc (even though there are like 3 games left unfortunately but whatever) and post omwc as well.
imo i think tdebris should be banned/suspected as well
tdebris is very restricting in terms of both the builder and how it makes you play. it forces most teams to run a poison type or deal with getting poisoned, as defog/rapid spin typically is not enough to keep them off long-term.
as for tdebris users, we have
the most common tdebris user. can easily get them up against corv, moon, and kommo-o and has other utility like hazard removal (though it hates getting poisoned) and being a potential wincon. can beat some corv sets, loses to physdef mandibuzz, iron moth and gengar can OHKO
physdef chomp can get them up against corv, ceruledge, the ogerpons, and cinderace while also setting up rocks/spikes. beats corv and moth, loses to tusk and mandibuzz
a more fringe option, but it can get them up against garchomp, corv, and regenvest moon. it also beats hazard removers such as corv, tusk (it lives a CC and can OHKO back), and mandibuzz lacking toxic (most don't run toxic and defog on the same set), as well as iron moth
pretty fringe as well, spdef garg can get them up against corv, zapdos, and moth trying to pivot out of it while beating corv, mandibuzz, and moth and doing garg things with salt cure (there are barely any magic guard users which helps)as for poison types to absorb tspikes, we have
decent mon with offensive pressure and defensive utility, can be hard to fit sometimes but the ability to absorb tspikes and threaten to OHKO offensive tusk (the most common debris user) really helps it
good offensive mon, has basically 0 defensive utility though and can only really safely absorb tspikes when being slow pivoted in. it would probably be only slightly worse if tdebris was banned
you might be wondering what a C rank mon is doing here, but it's surprisingly good as a triage wincon that can also switch into threats like roaring moon, meow, zama-c, oger-c, etc. it's helped a lot by being able to absorb tspikes, but it loses to most tdebris mons unfortunatelyas for defoggers/spinners, we have
immune to tspikes, but it's very exploitable as it's a corv, and certain corv sets just lose to tdebris tusk. also gets bodied by more fringe tdebris users like garg, chomp, and ursaluna-b. hates being poisoned + most tusks can easily be spinblocked by ee ghold. it can't really beat ursaluna-b since it can just live a CC from tusk and OHKO back, but it can beat garg and chomp
less exploitable than corv, physdef sets can beat tusk and chomp. sadly you can't really fit defog and toxic on the same set so you lose to garg and ursaluna-btdebris also forces you to play a certain way. first you have to scout for it, not unlike any other immunity ability for example, but if you trigger it, then you have to do one of several things
1. go to a flying type to avoid tspikes and defog (or go to ur defogger later)
2. go to a poison type and threaten to kill the tdebris mon in front of you or switch out if you can't
3. accept your mon is going to get poisoned and deal with it (usually not the best play unless you're in the late-game)
it also makes you wary of clicking u-turn (similarly to annihilape, which nearly everyone who got reqs and posted an opinion in the thread wants banned), since they could switch to their tdebris mon on a predicted u-turn from you and take advantage of one of the above sequences happening
in addition to what hera said, all of this makes tdebris a worthy candidate of a suspect or a quickban later on imo.
Toxic Debris is unhealthy! 
hi hi im back with another post that I've been wanting to do for a while, s/o to hera for indirectly reminding me to make it hehe
I won't beat around the bush here and I'll start by quickly going through the definition of uncompetitive:
Debris is not inherently broken - it doesn't dictate usage, and using it doesn't put you at a disadvantage - and neither is it uncompetitive - it doesn't autowin into good matchups nor does it autolose into bad matchups. However, Debris still does have an innate brokenness and uncompetitiveness to an extent - Debris allows and activates many threats to have an easier time breaking through their checks (forcing RegenVest Manaphy to take 25% from rocks and regular poison damage just for switching in, which can add up quickly when a breaker like specs wake is clicking meteor), making it somewhat broken; similarly, Debris can cause lose-lose scenarios with users like Bulk Up Great Tusk, where if you attack it, you (usually) get punished by activating Debris, and if you do not attack it, it can spiral out of control quickly and win the game, similar to day 1 Annihilape and Electrify in SS. To add insult to injury, removal is scarce - only 2 viable removers, Mandi and Corv (treads is fake get real), are naturally immune to TSpikes, with spinners like Great Tusk and Quaquaval having to use boots to avoid being crippled by it (which is especially tough for tusk since it loses it healing if not regen) / run Magic Guard which does cut a fair bit into their utility. As a result, Debris ends up as in an unfavorable position in the meta, and in my opinion, is unhealthy.
Would support tiering on Debris, and if it comes to a suspect, will be personally voting BAN if I do get reqs.
First off, Toxic Debris is unhealthy; it punishes U-turn and weak contact not unlike Rage Fist does, we have precious few removal options / viable Poison types, and setting hazards without clicking a move is honestly just bullshit (the fact I have hard switched Great Tusk into Azelf multiple times and it has paid off is not a healthy sign). Would support a ban / suspect for it.
Now for what I actually want to talk about, a team that I lovingly call "SFLO Gengar":
<- click for team
Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic Spikes
- Mean Look
- Skill Swap
I built the team around this guy, honestly intending it to be a meme team, but it is surprisingly effective even on the high ladder. In addition to trapping and removing special walls, which was obviously the intent, this set honestly has a lot more utility than I realized. Skill Swap means that it can reliably get up Toxic Spikes on anything slower than it (turn one Skill Swap garuntees you a free turn at minimum), it can stop any setup mon slower than it 100% of the time (including Substitute users, which has been handy against Ape / Ghold), and it forces a ton of switches and really disrupts the opposing team. Mean Look also goes through Protect, meaning you can trap any defensive Scream Tail looking to scout your move. It's also a surprisingly hard stop to Triage, beating Kommo-o outright and still resisting Grass and Fairy.
The idea of this team is simple; pivot in the wallbreakers (Gengar and Oger), aim to win with one of your cleaners (Azelf and Barra), and stay alive with your defensive pivots (Corviknight and Manaphy) long enough to win with your offensive guys.
Oger is max coverage, although dropping Play Rough for Grass STAB to better punish Tusk is probably reasonable (Kommo-o was not common on my run). Fun fact, +2 Knock Off is a high chance to OHKO Boldengo, so feel free to set up recklessly while Ghold is still alive.
Volt Absorb Corviknight + Physdef RegenVest Manaphy is definitely a little weird, but this team kept getting stomped by Zapdos, Sandy Shocks, and Weavile, and this core stands up to them a little better. This is very much a "win first" team though, do not expect the core to hold out long.
Common positive sequences you're looking to force is Barra -> Gengar and Azelf -> Oger-C; in both cases you get can fairly easily get your breaker in safely to set up and do some damage. With Gengar, the choice of Mean Look vs Normalize turn one is important and should be carefully judged based on the opposing team; if the mon in front of you is OHKOed by standard Gengar + they have a sturdy wall in the back, it's probably fine to Mean Look. Otherwise, Skill Swap is a much safer play that lets you get Toxic Spikes down + scout their play.
This team just fucking dies against Banded Roaring Moon or Meowscarada; there's probably a way to optimize that, but it's a fun team that already works way better than I expected, so now I am campagining to get Gengar banned again.
Tip: Weather Ball bypasses Normalize
Replays:
Okay so you don't actually beat Mandibuzz, but it still keeps up Toxic Spikes, forces Corv into a bad spot, and keeps Ape from doing anything.
Removes Manaphy, keeps Toxic Spikes up, trolls a Subsitute Gholdengo that can do nothing.
For the love of everything, make sure your Roaring Moon has at least 351 Speed (or honestly probably just max speed it).
Traps RegenVest + pressures slower guys.
Gengar forces swithces until the grounded guys are all Toxiced and the Oger kills three birds with one stone.
Anyways, have fun, fear Gengar, pivots and breakers is still fun.
Now for what I actually want to talk about, a team that I lovingly call "SFLO Gengar":
Gengar used Skill Swap!
[Gengar's Sheer Force]
[The opposing Thundurus's Normalize]
[Gengar's Sheer Force]
[The opposing Thundurus's Normalize]
<- click for teamGengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic Spikes
- Mean Look
- Skill Swap
I built the team around this guy, honestly intending it to be a meme team, but it is surprisingly effective even on the high ladder. In addition to trapping and removing special walls, which was obviously the intent, this set honestly has a lot more utility than I realized. Skill Swap means that it can reliably get up Toxic Spikes on anything slower than it (turn one Skill Swap garuntees you a free turn at minimum), it can stop any setup mon slower than it 100% of the time (including Substitute users, which has been handy against Ape / Ghold), and it forces a ton of switches and really disrupts the opposing team. Mean Look also goes through Protect, meaning you can trap any defensive Scream Tail looking to scout your move. It's also a surprisingly hard stop to Triage, beating Kommo-o outright and still resisting Grass and Fairy.
The idea of this team is simple; pivot in the wallbreakers (Gengar and Oger), aim to win with one of your cleaners (Azelf and Barra), and stay alive with your defensive pivots (Corviknight and Manaphy) long enough to win with your offensive guys.
Oger is max coverage, although dropping Play Rough for Grass STAB to better punish Tusk is probably reasonable (Kommo-o was not common on my run). Fun fact, +2 Knock Off is a high chance to OHKO Boldengo, so feel free to set up recklessly while Ghold is still alive.
Volt Absorb Corviknight + Physdef RegenVest Manaphy is definitely a little weird, but this team kept getting stomped by Zapdos, Sandy Shocks, and Weavile, and this core stands up to them a little better. This is very much a "win first" team though, do not expect the core to hold out long.
Common positive sequences you're looking to force is Barra -> Gengar and Azelf -> Oger-C; in both cases you get can fairly easily get your breaker in safely to set up and do some damage. With Gengar, the choice of Mean Look vs Normalize turn one is important and should be carefully judged based on the opposing team; if the mon in front of you is OHKOed by standard Gengar + they have a sturdy wall in the back, it's probably fine to Mean Look. Otherwise, Skill Swap is a much safer play that lets you get Toxic Spikes down + scout their play.
This team just fucking dies against Banded Roaring Moon or Meowscarada; there's probably a way to optimize that, but it's a fun team that already works way better than I expected, so now I am campagining to get Gengar banned again.
Tip: Weather Ball bypasses Normalize
Replays:
Okay so you don't actually beat Mandibuzz, but it still keeps up Toxic Spikes, forces Corv into a bad spot, and keeps Ape from doing anything.
Removes Manaphy, keeps Toxic Spikes up, trolls a Subsitute Gholdengo that can do nothing.
For the love of everything, make sure your Roaring Moon has at least 351 Speed (or honestly probably just max speed it).
Traps RegenVest + pressures slower guys.
Gengar forces swithces until the grounded guys are all Toxiced and the Oger kills three birds with one stone.
Anyways, have fun, fear Gengar, pivots and breakers is still fun.
Last edited:
The Plan
Here's some of the stuff council has been talking about within the last few weeks if you're interested in that kind of thing:
- Toxic Debris suspect test, potentially right after the Annihilape one
- 2AC suspect test within 1-2 weeks of DLC 2 release to seal the deal on this gen's position
- Council vote on Weavile? Kinda falls through if DLC 2 has Weavile answers, but sticks if it doesn't
- Giratina suspect test...? Maybe that was a meme
- Fresh slate unban Hariyama, Ursaluna, and potentially Iron Hands on DLC release
- No clear unban slate for DLC 2 otherwise just yet, but probably will once we know more about what's coming in the content drop
Thoughts?
You asked for thoughts so I'll share thoughts.
With regards to timing, if we do the suspect (which to be clear, while I don't support, I don't think is a terrible idea), I think 1-2 weeks post-DLC is the best timing. We're in the awkward spot of not wanting to wait too long, as then freeing 2AC would reset a lot of tiering, but if we do it ASAP then we risk having a lot of brokens still being free and not giving 2AC a fair shake. I think about two weeks, with a few quick ban votes first, is our best bet.
Fully support this, I think it's an at minimum restricting element, bordering on unhealthy. It's also doubtful that DLC 2 is likely to bring anything that signfigantly balances it, so a suspect rq before DLC should be fine.
I personally find a 2AC suspect test unnecessary still; I think the meta has largely been better under SAC, it fits more consistently in our tiering definitions, and I have found gameplay largely more rewarding. 2AC also limits our ability to test / free stronger abilities (cough cough Ice Scales), but it doesn't look like that's happening anyway so meh. 2AC has also generally had low player / survey support outside of one survey, so I'm not sure such a large change is really called for. Maybe one more "end of DLC 1" survey to touchpoint it rq?
With regards to timing, if we do the suspect (which to be clear, while I don't support, I don't think is a terrible idea), I think 1-2 weeks post-DLC is the best timing. We're in the awkward spot of not wanting to wait too long, as then freeing 2AC would reset a lot of tiering, but if we do it ASAP then we risk having a lot of brokens still being free and not giving 2AC a fair shake. I think about two weeks, with a few quick ban votes first, is our best bet.
Support both a vote and honestly banning it. It's dummy restricting on building, Technician sets have way too much power for their Speed tier. Especially lacking a proper bulky double resist like Fini last gen, we're pretty limited to shaky checks like Intimidate Corviknight or "just outplay." And while I'm a big believer in "just outplay" I think Weavile is too fast / too strong to do so reasonably.
If you're going to meme, let's at least test Xerneas or Zacian-C since they're ability locked.
I don't love this one, at least on DLC drop. I do think at the minimum we could free Hariyama, as Kommo-o fills a very similar niche and sees little to no usage (at least successfully) as a Belly Drum sweeper. As for the others, I think it could make more sense to see if we get potent new Triage sweepers first (especially if Bitter Blade is returning, or we suddenly have Tapu Lele again), and then decide the fate of Ursaluna / Iron Hands after we settle Triage.
Agreed on no obvious unbans. Other than the Triage guys above, I don't see a large number of guys worth re-testing. Maybe Zoroark-H if Gengar is going to stick around, maybe Baxcalibur if we get more defensive Fairy types (read: Fini), but most of the other guys are classic statball Ubers that I don't see being healthy, too potent fast powerful offensive guys that are just hard to handle, or Mage which would be fine maybe if we banned every immunity ability and Triage.
fully in support of this right after the ape suspect, already wrote down my thoughts in an above postIsaiah said:
i'm not really sold on this. 1AC feels pretty good rn, and many people who played 2AC in AAAPL preferred 1AC over 2AC. i don't think there's really a great reason to switch over to 2AC when this gen has been pretty good so farIsaiah said:
i think this should happen since weavile is just stupidly powerful with very few defensive answers for how fast it is + we don't have finiIsaiah said:
i don't really love this idea since i feel like it doesn't really make the tier better and could potentially be broken, but if there's a community support i feel like a suspect would be fineIsaiah said:
this should only happen alongside a triage ban imo. without a triage ban hariyama could be freed but definitely not ursaluna and iron handsIsaiah said:
FREE POISON HEALIsaiah said:
Toxic Debris is fun when I use it, but not when used against me :( but fr this ability should definitely be tested as it forces either a poison type on ur team, boots/flying spam, a mon or two getting poisoned, or being put into a very predictable flow that can be exploited heavily. With gholdengo/ape being brought back, spinblocking has become easier than ever, and corv doesn't have a good match-up against either (move dependent for ape but ghold walls). Also had quite a few games where it just turns into whose tusk can get poisoned first and wear the other down with knock + rapid spin.
I really hope there is a ban on weavile, imo it and TD are the most oppressive things when it comes to team building. It's chien-pao that isn't choice locked (the only thing keeping it in-check). The only real 'answers' are intim corv and quav, but corv isn't even the best bc if it loses the 50/50 on the SD or switch then things are getting sacked or you lose. With TD tusk and ape being back make it even harder, as corv now has to decide if it wants to run BB/DP or BP to hit one or the other. While intim quav is a better check, it really isn't the best mon outside of taking on weav/chien. The role compression it can do is nice, but the tools it has I usually want to run on other things that fill the same role and aren't as passive/mon specific (tusk for spin, mana/moon for knock/u-turn, and corv is usually the better intim). While in a vacuum, these two mons can beat it, with minimal team support/chip, these checks can get folded by weav. Unless I am missing another mon I don't know what else checks weav somewhat reliably.
I agree with UT and Kinetic1000 about the unbans of hariyama, ursa, and hands. Should only be released if triage is banned.
Don't have an opinion on 2AC, never played with it so I'm fine with whatever. 1-2 weeks after DLC seems pretty quick to me though, as wouldn't it take a little more time for the meta to settle? Esp since whatever is decided would be for the rest of the gen.
As for unbans... I think the only one that would be worth trying is zoro-h, esp if ghold, d-nite, and gar were re-added and still here.