Has anyone been seeing a rise in skill swap/normalize gengar? It feels heavily unfair because with mean look, it completely shuts down everything that doesn’t one-shot or outspeed and two-shot gengar.
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AAA Almost Any Ability
- Thread starter LordBox
- Start date
You might want to read this
Yeah, probably should have, I need to stay up to date on this type of thing
i blame you UT
Seriously. The day after I read that post, I was laddering and maybe every other team I fought on high ladder had a Normalize Gengar. I'd say it's pretty annoying to deal with, maybe even restrictive. You have to be really careful when bringing in defensive mons, because if you can't KO the Gengar before it Mean Looks you, your mon is pretty much dead. A good thing to keep in mind from the UT post is that Weather Ball bypasses Normalize, so if you use a special DesoLand/PrimSea mon, you won't have to worry too much about not being able to take out Gengar
Also when's the Annihilape ban going to be implemented on ladder, because I just fought two Annihilape HOs in a row and I think that just took 3 years off my life
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Following a completely unanimous council vote, Weavile is banned! This has been a topic that the council has gone back and forth on in voting for a while, but it seems positions have all aligned this time around. The distinction that separates Weavile from Chien-Pao (which some view as a faster, better Pokemon) is Beat Up. Beat Up Weavile's ability to pressure so many frail-enough foes with OHKOs and 2HKOs was a problem, and it certainly contributes to the prevalence adaptations like physically defensive RegenVest Manaphy and the ever-present Intimidate Corviknight.
Something else that came up in the "to ban or not to ban" discussion is Rockpon, which got killed to death 1-6:
(the 1 is Tranquility)
Now, you might be wondering, "Why bother with a suspect test and a quickban when DLC 2 is just a few weeks away?"
Reasoning:
- Unless the ability itself is getting a significant change or something else magically happens (i.e. a bunch of impossibly good but somehow not banworthy TSpikes absorbers come out or something), it's very unlikely that this will have any bearing on a Toxic Debris decision. Let's just focus on balancing the metagame that we know, especially since this is a suspect test; it's ban OR do not ban, meaning nothing is set in stone.
- The reasoning I put above for Toxic Debris applies the same way to Weavile. If there are significant enough changes brought on by DLC 2 to warrant reversing (or revisitng) this quickban, then we'll deal with that situation when the time comes.
Tagging Kris for implementation
Toxic Debris suspect test going up as soon as Weavile ban is on PS
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CONTROVERSIAL TAKE INCOMING
I wanted to make this post a while ago but I thought posting this after OMWC ended would be the best way to get a better look of the meta at high level. At last, here we are. This post is going to talk about the main problem I have with the meta and why I and some others think that the meta is not in a good state at all. It pains me to make this post since AAA is my favorite meta but right now, playing AAA is such a terrible experience that I would rather play BH for fun (no hate to the meta, I like BH but I’m bad at it). I know this might be an unpopular opinion right now as I’ve seen a lot of people say they enjoyed the meta as it is but I still want to voice my thoughts about the meta. This is going to be a long post but I hope you stick with me through it.
Looking at these two images and maybe from your experience with the meta, I don’t think it is hard to see what’s the problem with the meta right now: It’s very centralizing. The 4 mons at the top of the usage (
, 
, 
, 
) will find their way onto most of the balance teams even if you don’t want them and balance teams are just so happen to be to most dominant team style right now so those 4 mons are basically running the tier. It is hard to make a good balance team without including at least 2 or 3 mons out of the four. If you just try to build a normal standard team, you will almost guarantee to have a combination of those four on your team even if you didn’t intend to do so. That doesn’t even mention the very good glue mons that you will see on almost every team like 
, 
, 
, 
.
With how centralizing this meta is, it is now not hard to see the roots of my hatred for this meta. The problem with this meta is that the mons at the top of it do their jobs better than any other and competition doesn't really exist. Let’s go through each one individually.
This is the mon I hated the most out of the big four. It is probably the most centralizing mon right now and the reason is very apparent: This mon just does everything for your team. Its amazing typing in combination with immunity abilities can fill a lot of holes on your team. The most common set right now is WBB with the ability to take advantage of fire type threats like , 
, 
or even something like to spread thunder wave. Earth eater set is a great spinblock tool and fits well on hazard stack team since is the most common hazard remover right now. Gholdengo can also form good defensive cores with other mons, especially regenvest. Water immune + and electric immune + are two good core even if they are not very popular to the general player base. Looking at the move sets, it is commonly used as a support mon with the ability to paralyze defensive walls like Manaphy or Roaring Moon helps its teammates like Walking Wake and Gengar to do their jobs as breakers more easily. Being mainly support with defensive evs doesn’t take away from the fact that it is still a fearsome offensive threat. Even on a defensive set, hex still does a lot of damage and Ghold can still run Nasty Plots for late game wincon. This is elevated by the fact that paralyze is a broken status condition, giving otherwise would-be checks to Ghold like or a tough time. Offensive sets fit better on offense teams which are not very popular right now but with the right move set, Gholdengo can still get out of hand.
Among the reasons for the dislike of some players for this meta, Mana is one of the most popular ones.
Before I wrote this post I’d had conversations with Ojr and a few others who also didn’t like the meta to understand others’ problems with the current meta. In a post in the OMWC shoutouts threat, Osake also seemed to have a problem with Mana too. Personally, even though I don’t fully agree with Mana being the problem, I still understand where this opinion comes from and will try my best to explain it. If you’ve played a decent amount of this meta, it is not hard to see why Mana is one of the best mons in the tier, some might even argue it is the best. No matter how you see it, mana without a doubt is the best regenvest right now. The utility it provides is simply unmatched by other regenvest. Pure water is a great defensive typing and 100/100/100 bulk allows mana to be a great wall on both physical and special side. Assault vest is the go-to item to maximize its bulk while taking the full advantage of its great support moves like scald, knock off, u turn. These three moves alone are why mana is better than other regenvest. And yes, like Osake said, the Mana on Mana interaction is stupid, it’s only a matter of time until level 99 Mana becomes the norm. Mana isn’t just good because of the regenvest also since without regenvest, mana has access to two of the strongest set up moves in the game (take heart and tail glow), making it a fearsome sweeper. The full cheese sets like prankster double dance or booster speed are hard to fit on teams but other sets like offensive primordial sea or physdef regen take heart definitely have a spot in the meta.
I won’t talk much about these two because they are quite easy to deal with and not as big of a problem as Mana or Ghold. Corv is still corv and is still very abusable, tusk doesn’t run regen so it doesn’t have reliable recovery and can be chipped down easily. The reason why they are this high on usage is just because they are the two best hazard removers while providing amazing utility for the team. Tdebris Tusk is unhealthy imo but enough people have talked about it and I don’t really want to sound like a broken record. (By the time this post has gone up, Tdebris is already suspect tested so good job council)
Siamato's take on this subject because he's the goat:
After reading my thoughts on and , you might see a trend between the two of them: They are just too good at their job that nothing can compete with them. To me, there is no good way to resolve this problem without banning one of the two. These mons are good not because other options are bad, Hoodra is still good as a regenvest, can tank a lot of special hits and even has access to knock off now and yet it is still a mediocre mon. You have to have a good reason to use it over Mana just because it has so many utilities. Even if you ban broken offensive threats like 
or 
to make more mons viable, nothing will change, Mana will still be on top of the food chain. Let’s make a little comparison to make it clearer. Pre-dlc, the best regenvesters are 
, 
and 
. Each has its own niche over each other. Muk-A, while being the weakest defensively, makes up for that by the fact that it is one of the rare mons that have access to knock off which allows it to make a lot of progress. Meloetta is the only one that has access to u turn. Hoodra is the bulkiest one. And all of the sudden, Mana came out and just had all of the combined traits of each regenvest. There is little to no reason to use any other regenvest than Mana (Regenvest moon popped up recently but needs more support against strong breakers like Wake while Mana still blanket walls most special threats). Ghold is a different case and it is harder to say how it outperforms others because what it does is so unique that only it can do that job. Ghold’s most common set aka WBB fulfills the role of defensive chomp pre-DLC and while Ghold can’t set up hazards, it still has its own utility. (You can also say the EE set outcompete spinblockers like 
or 
but I don’t really count it)
More Siamato's take even if you don't like it:
With all that said, I doubt there will be any action taken against Ghold or Mana. It is hard to make a case to ban a defensive in such an offensive meta like AAA but I want to bring up my final point:
With all the change made in gen 9 like limited hazard remover option, recovery pp nerf, many good defensive pieces being dexited (most notably
), 1AC, offense huge power creep, … our defensive options are very limited and you find yourself using a same few defensive cores again and again. If you have played AAA in gen 9 for a while, you certainly know that this is not the first time the meta seems very centralizing. Pre-DLC, a lot of people viewed the meta as overcentralizing and unfun, even calling for 2AC to come back. It was understandable because back then the options were also very limited. From Chien Pao forcing every team to run either Corv or Quaquaval to strong fighters making Fluffy almost mandatory on balance team, a lot of people had very bad experiences with the meta (I liked it but I’m not ready to explain another controversial take). In the present day, the problem still remains but just in a different shape. That’s why I proposed making the meta more offensive because you won’t have to stick to the same defensive core as with a balance meta. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, offense meta is not everyone’s cup of tea, and I don’t even know if the offensive meta will work out or will just turn into a mess with HO being everywhere. I’m uncertain but at the very least I still want to try it out, I will take everything over the meta that we are having right now. Maybe this is not the time for it since DLC 2 is coming out soon but I just want to bring this up as something to consider.
If you made it here, thanks a lot for putting up with my rant. That’s all, have a good day!
I wanted to make this post a while ago but I thought posting this after OMWC ended would be the best way to get a better look of the meta at high level. At last, here we are. This post is going to talk about the main problem I have with the meta and why I and some others think that the meta is not in a good state at all. It pains me to make this post since AAA is my favorite meta but right now, playing AAA is such a terrible experience that I would rather play BH for fun (no hate to the meta, I like BH but I’m bad at it). I know this might be an unpopular opinion right now as I’ve seen a lot of people say they enjoyed the meta as it is but I still want to voice my thoughts about the meta. This is going to be a long post but I hope you stick with me through it.
Looking at these two images and maybe from your experience with the meta, I don’t think it is hard to see what’s the problem with the meta right now: It’s very centralizing. The 4 mons at the top of the usage (
, , , ) will find their way onto most of the balance teams even if you don’t want them and balance teams are just so happen to be to most dominant team style right now so those 4 mons are basically running the tier. It is hard to make a good balance team without including at least 2 or 3 mons out of the four. If you just try to build a normal standard team, you will almost guarantee to have a combination of those four on your team even if you didn’t intend to do so. That doesn’t even mention the very good glue mons that you will see on almost every team like , , , .With how centralizing this meta is, it is now not hard to see the roots of my hatred for this meta. The problem with this meta is that the mons at the top of it do their jobs better than any other and competition doesn't really exist. Let’s go through each one individually.
This is the mon I hated the most out of the big four. It is probably the most centralizing mon right now and the reason is very apparent: This mon just does everything for your team. Its amazing typing in combination with immunity abilities can fill a lot of holes on your team. The most common set right now is WBB with the ability to take advantage of fire type threats like , , or even something like to spread thunder wave. Earth eater set is a great spinblock tool and fits well on hazard stack team since is the most common hazard remover right now. Gholdengo can also form good defensive cores with other mons, especially regenvest. Water immune + and electric immune + are two good core even if they are not very popular to the general player base. Looking at the move sets, it is commonly used as a support mon with the ability to paralyze defensive walls like Manaphy or Roaring Moon helps its teammates like Walking Wake and Gengar to do their jobs as breakers more easily. Being mainly support with defensive evs doesn’t take away from the fact that it is still a fearsome offensive threat. Even on a defensive set, hex still does a lot of damage and Ghold can still run Nasty Plots for late game wincon. This is elevated by the fact that paralyze is a broken status condition, giving otherwise would-be checks to Ghold like or a tough time. Offensive sets fit better on offense teams which are not very popular right now but with the right move set, Gholdengo can still get out of hand. Among the reasons for the dislike of some players for this meta, Mana is one of the most popular ones.Before I wrote this post I’d had conversations with Ojr and a few others who also didn’t like the meta to understand others’ problems with the current meta. In a post in the OMWC shoutouts threat, Osake also seemed to have a problem with Mana too. Personally, even though I don’t fully agree with Mana being the problem, I still understand where this opinion comes from and will try my best to explain it. If you’ve played a decent amount of this meta, it is not hard to see why Mana is one of the best mons in the tier, some might even argue it is the best. No matter how you see it, mana without a doubt is the best regenvest right now. The utility it provides is simply unmatched by other regenvest. Pure water is a great defensive typing and 100/100/100 bulk allows mana to be a great wall on both physical and special side. Assault vest is the go-to item to maximize its bulk while taking the full advantage of its great support moves like scald, knock off, u turn. These three moves alone are why mana is better than other regenvest. And yes, like Osake said, the Mana on Mana interaction is stupid, it’s only a matter of time until level 99 Mana becomes the norm. Mana isn’t just good because of the regenvest also since without regenvest, mana has access to two of the strongest set up moves in the game (take heart and tail glow), making it a fearsome sweeper. The full cheese sets like prankster double dance or booster speed are hard to fit on teams but other sets like offensive primordial sea or physdef regen take heart definitely have a spot in the meta.
I won’t talk much about these two because they are quite easy to deal with and not as big of a problem as Mana or Ghold. Corv is still corv and is still very abusable, tusk doesn’t run regen so it doesn’t have reliable recovery and can be chipped down easily. The reason why they are this high on usage is just because they are the two best hazard removers while providing amazing utility for the team. Tdebris Tusk is unhealthy imo but enough people have talked about it and I don’t really want to sound like a broken record. (By the time this post has gone up, Tdebris is already suspect tested so good job council)Siamato's take on this subject because he's the goat:
After reading my thoughts on
and , you might see a trend between the two of them: They are just too good at their job that nothing can compete with them. To me, there is no good way to resolve this problem without banning one of the two. These mons are good not because other options are bad, Hoodra is still good as a regenvest, can tank a lot of special hits and even has access to knock off now and yet it is still a mediocre mon. You have to have a good reason to use it over Mana just because it has so many utilities. Even if you ban broken offensive threats like or to make more mons viable, nothing will change, Mana will still be on top of the food chain. Let’s make a little comparison to make it clearer. Pre-dlc, the best regenvesters are , and . Each has its own niche over each other. Muk-A, while being the weakest defensively, makes up for that by the fact that it is one of the rare mons that have access to knock off which allows it to make a lot of progress. Meloetta is the only one that has access to u turn. Hoodra is the bulkiest one. And all of the sudden, Mana came out and just had all of the combined traits of each regenvest. There is little to no reason to use any other regenvest than Mana (Regenvest moon popped up recently but needs more support against strong breakers like Wake while Mana still blanket walls most special threats). Ghold is a different case and it is harder to say how it outperforms others because what it does is so unique that only it can do that job. Ghold’s most common set aka WBB fulfills the role of defensive chomp pre-DLC and while Ghold can’t set up hazards, it still has its own utility. (You can also say the EE set outcompete spinblockers like or but I don’t really count it)More Siamato's take even if you don't like it:
With all that said, I doubt there will be any action taken against Ghold or Mana. It is hard to make a case to ban a defensive in such an offensive meta like AAA but I want to bring up my final point:
Embrace the offensive meta
With all the change made in gen 9 like limited hazard remover option, recovery pp nerf, many good defensive pieces being dexited (most notably
), 1AC, offense huge power creep, … our defensive options are very limited and you find yourself using a same few defensive cores again and again. If you have played AAA in gen 9 for a while, you certainly know that this is not the first time the meta seems very centralizing. Pre-DLC, a lot of people viewed the meta as overcentralizing and unfun, even calling for 2AC to come back. It was understandable because back then the options were also very limited. From Chien Pao forcing every team to run either Corv or Quaquaval to strong fighters making Fluffy almost mandatory on balance team, a lot of people had very bad experiences with the meta (I liked it but I’m not ready to explain another controversial take). In the present day, the problem still remains but just in a different shape. That’s why I proposed making the meta more offensive because you won’t have to stick to the same defensive core as with a balance meta. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, offense meta is not everyone’s cup of tea, and I don’t even know if the offensive meta will work out or will just turn into a mess with HO being everywhere. I’m uncertain but at the very least I still want to try it out, I will take everything over the meta that we are having right now. Maybe this is not the time for it since DLC 2 is coming out soon but I just want to bring this up as something to consider.If you made it here, thanks a lot for putting up with my rant. That’s all, have a good day!
Attachments
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CONTROVERSIAL TAKE INCOMING
I wanted to make this post a while ago but I thought posting this after OMWC ended would be the best way to get a better look of the meta at high level. At last, here we are. This post is going to talk about the main problem I have with the meta and why I and some others think that the meta is not in a good state at all. It pains me to make this post since AAA is my favorite meta but right now, playing AAA is such a terrible experience that I would rather play BH for fun (no hate to the meta, I like BH but I’m bad at it). I know this might be an unpopular opinion right now as I’ve seen a lot of people say they enjoyed the meta as it is but I still want to voice my thoughts about the meta. This is going to be a long post but I hope you stick with me through it.
View attachment 573127
View attachment 573129
Looking at these two images and maybe from your experience with the meta, I don’t think it is hard to see what’s the problem with the meta right now: It’s very centralizing. The 4 mons at the top of the usage (
With how centralizing this meta is, it is now not hard to see the roots of my hatred for this meta. The problem with this meta is that the mons at the top of it do their jobs better than any other and competition doesn't really exist. Let’s go through each one individually.
View attachment 573126
Before I wrote this post I’d had conversations with Ojr and a few others who also didn’t like the meta to understand others’ problems with the current meta. In a post in the OMWC shoutouts threat, Osake also seemed to have a problem with Mana too. Personally, even though I don’t fully agree with Mana being the problem, I still understand where this opinion comes from and will try my best to explain it. If you’ve played a decent amount of this meta, it is not hard to see why Mana is one of the best mons in the tier, some might even argue it is the best. No matter how you see it, mana without a doubt is the best regenvest right now. The utility it provides is simply unmatched by other regenvest. Pure water is a great defensive typing and 100/100/100 bulk allows mana to be a great wall on both physical and special side. Assault vest is the go-to item to maximize its bulk while taking the full advantage of its great support moves like scald, knock off, u turn. These three moves alone are why mana is better than other regenvest. And yes, like Osake said, the Mana on Mana interaction is stupid, it’s only a matter of time until level 99 Mana becomes the norm. Mana isn’t just good because of the regenvest also since without regenvest, mana has access to two of the strongest set up moves in the game (take heart and tail glow), making it a fearsome sweeper. The full cheese sets like prankster double dance or booster speed are hard to fit on teams but other sets like offensive primordial sea or physdef regen take heart definitely have a spot in the meta.
Siamato's take on this subject because he's the goat:
View attachment 573123
After reading my thoughts on
More Siamato's take even if you don't like it:
With all that said, I doubt there will be any action taken against Ghold or Mana. It is hard to make a case to ban a defensive in such an offensive meta like AAA but I want to bring up my final point:
Embrace the offensive meta
With all the change made in gen 9 like limited hazard remover option, recovery pp nerf, many good defensive pieces being dexited (most notably
If you made it here, thanks a lot for putting up with my rant. That’s all, have a good day!
Honestly, I don't see much of a problem at all, you have to understand that every single meta has centralizing elements, every single one whether that be within AAA (I will illustrate this with 1500+ Ladder stats) or without. Just look at AAA since the start of Gen 9 as an example:
January (Fur Coat / Ice Scales Meta)
July (Post-Home Meta)
October (Post-DLC 1 Meta)
Just from a cursory look at these ladder stats at the 1500 range, there isn't anything that stands out as extreme compared to the vast majority of tiers. Obviously Gholdengo is missing from the latter stat usage due to being unbanned late in the month but realistically nothing is wrong with these stats which has a much bigger sample size compared to a single tour.
As mentioned these stats mirror the stats of many other tiers such as the following:
Gen 4 OU (1500)
Gen 8 OU (1700)
Gen 9 Balanced Hackmons (1500)
I could honestly go on and on, but point is, centralization only increases the higher up the ladder you go, this is only amplified in tournament play where there is inevitably gonna be an even greater emphasis on the most efficient and effective Pokemon within a tier that can handle the greatest number of variables whilst also compressing multiple roles, or being sufficiently powerful.
This isn't even exclusive to Pokemon competitive, any game that is actively balanced will inevitably have centralizing elements that are difficult to ignore. The less balanced a tier the more variables increase unless there is a factor that is so extremely good that it basically breaks any notion of not using it, think the numerous Pokemon, abilities, moves, etc... that have been insta-banned, not just quick banned but proven so broken that action couldn't not be taken (Huge Power, Shadow Tag, etc... in relation to AAA abilitywise, Slaking for Pokemon).
More and more, I've come to understand that centralization is somewhat of a fallacy that even I have used to criticize a meta or pokemon. Yet, often times banning things just because they are central merely leads to something else assuming the place of the banned Pokemon. Great Tusk was banned back in early 2023, what happened was Iron Treads took it's place as a popular ground spinner with many shared qualities. Now that Tusk is back, Iron Treads usage has plummeted. Previously we used things like Regenvest Roaring Moon as a general AV mon post-Ice Scales ban, then we shifted to Meloetta / Goodra-Hisui, and now we have Manaphy, banning the latter would only result in us going back to one of the previous ones (they still see play in spite of manaphy).
TLDR: Centralization is an inevitable result within any and all tiers, we strive to make things as effecient and effective as possible which results in increasingly fewer used Pokemon the more skilled the players are. Does this mean there is no variety or no opportunity to think outside the box, no, this is just a natural cause and effect.
Hope my point was clear and understandable.
^^ I'd like to add on to gia's post above that centralization and high usage ≠ banworthy. for example, lando-t's high usage is due to the utility, role compression, and adaptability that it offers: it can control hazards, it can cripple things with toxic and knock, it can pose a threat with SD, it can act as speed control with scarf and the lists goes on.
ss lando-t is not dissimilar in the role that manaphy (and gholdengo but the line of comparison is pretty thin) can offer to the table. this can also be seen in many mons throughout the generations and tiers. ill use gia's example of ttar here too - ttar provides a lot of set variance in dpp: a choice scarfer, a choice bander, general utility, setup sweeper, defensive, and mixed attacker.
its also not that mana/ghold absolutely require usage either - you could probably use vaporeon instead of mana to decent success. gholdengo's utility is somewhat hard to recreate with other mons, but hey, its not like every mon has a worse replica. mana/ghold is seeing high usage due to their unique, valuable utility that they provide which, in turn, causes the "better" players (subjective to how you would decide what being "better"is") to be drawn to their unique properties not dissimilar to ss lando-t and dpp ttar.
i'd also like to point out the difference between centralizing and over-centralizing. corviknight is centralizing due to its unique traits like its typing, slow pivoting, hazard removal, and walling capabilities. ss aaa tlens keldeo was over-centralizing due to its best checks being either immunities to both its stabs (desoland chandelure) or a quad resist (wabs togekiss). this is a big difference that i hope everyone will take into account before they propose tiering action on mana/ghold.
would also like to mention that mana/ghold does not fall under the tiering policy framework's definition of broken, uncompetitive or unhealthy, and that the corvmanagholdtusk core can lose to strong breakers (thundys, scrappy swing, np + tbolt gengar, sd + knock ogerpon-c/h, etc). other breakers just need time and the right support to break through eventually (azelf w/ knock and hazard control support, skewda with shocks support, etc)
post might not be super readable since im kinda tired u.u
ss lando-t is not dissimilar in the role that manaphy (and gholdengo but the line of comparison is pretty thin) can offer to the table. this can also be seen in many mons throughout the generations and tiers. ill use gia's example of ttar here too - ttar provides a lot of set variance in dpp: a choice scarfer, a choice bander, general utility, setup sweeper, defensive, and mixed attacker.
its also not that mana/ghold absolutely require usage either - you could probably use vaporeon instead of mana to decent success. gholdengo's utility is somewhat hard to recreate with other mons, but hey, its not like every mon has a worse replica. mana/ghold is seeing high usage due to their unique, valuable utility that they provide which, in turn, causes the "better" players (subjective to how you would decide what being "better"is") to be drawn to their unique properties not dissimilar to ss lando-t and dpp ttar.
i'd also like to point out the difference between centralizing and over-centralizing. corviknight is centralizing due to its unique traits like its typing, slow pivoting, hazard removal, and walling capabilities. ss aaa tlens keldeo was over-centralizing due to its best checks being either immunities to both its stabs (desoland chandelure) or a quad resist (wabs togekiss). this is a big difference that i hope everyone will take into account before they propose tiering action on mana/ghold.
would also like to mention that mana/ghold does not fall under the tiering policy framework's definition of broken, uncompetitive or unhealthy, and that the corvmanagholdtusk core can lose to strong breakers (thundys, scrappy swing, np + tbolt gengar, sd + knock ogerpon-c/h, etc). other breakers just need time and the right support to break through eventually (azelf w/ knock and hazard control support, skewda with shocks support, etc)
post might not be super readable since im kinda tired u.u
sooooooo
I said I was going to make a post, here I am. It is not really important as it's pretty sure that nothing will change before the DLC and it's normal it would make little sens and I overall agree with the reasoning of suspect testing TDebris anyway cuz unless something magic come backs with the DLC it won't really change the efficiency of the ability and people won't change their mind. I have no idea of what's coming back with DLC so idk if Weavile might be less strong after, however it was pretty much SS Weavile and nothing in 9G rly helped to deal with it, although I haven't felt like Weavile was SO unstoppable so personnaly I wouldn't have QB'd it (esp with Pao around, Weavile is overall better than pao prob but harder to build around) but it's a minor issue.
So if nothing is gonna change, why do I do this post? it's mainly cuz as long as OM Champ is played in DLC 1 (if not I might drop idk I'll see) I prob won't play AAA a lot for the next months just as I did after OMPL, so it's now or never if I want to give a relatively good, or at least informed, opinion on the AAA meta. It's also good to have feedback in general I think, and to have discussions, even if they lead to nothing, just nice to share thoughts
As ghostlike stated in his post I do have a problem in Manaphy, and I already said that I do not really like the meta, and overall it's for the same reasons that ghostlike. I do know that he uses the term of "centralizing" with a definition that is maybe not what official Pokemon jurists use, and yeah the top 4 mons in usage are not "overly restrictive" or anything and are far from being broken, that is fully true. And that is also why they won't end up being banned, and that is probably normal.
However, this is not the point ghostlike is making. "The problem with this meta is that the mons at the top of it do their jobs better than any other and competition doesn't really exist". You may consider that it is not a problem, however, as someone who always tries to use funny techs in building and not use the same 6 mons cuz "they're solid", I've never felt so deprived. I looked at the teambuilder for hours, searching for a cool tech, a cool combination, something, the best thing I came up was Stamina Scream Tail. And that's terrible. Simply because everything I can think of fells to do something in a meta so outrageously dominated by 4 mons that can do everything you want in your team and in the opponent team, and if you try to build without them you end up 90% of the time with bad / shaky structures that are either fishing a MU or very specific. Or straight up bad, and some of them are. You can always drop one or two months, but at the end of they day, you have an idea, you build with it, you put an AV and it's Manaphy cuz it's the best, you put Corviknight cuz Pao check, you put Gholdengo cuz you lose to X threat that you need to cover with a random ability. And that's it. And that's your optimal 6. And you don't have another Defogger to use (or another Spinner for Tusk), and you don't have another mon that gives so much utility than Manaphy, and you don't have another Ghost/Steel type that can check w/e your team needs to check.
and yeah, it will never be "banworthy" things if you want, but it is still a massive fun-killer in the metagame. Nothing can rly stops it though, and it's also due to absurd move distribution (Koff everywhere, Defog nowhere), and maybe and hopefully DLC 2 will change that, which is why it is not interesting to make a change now.
About the data: it is true that ghostlike's datas weren't optimal. He used the statistics of only 1 tournament, with not that much games. However, I can confidently say that anyone who has played this meta seriously knows that the statistics of the World Cup or, if not a truth cuz it'd be a bit cocky, at least a general trend that you can't deny. That are reflected in the samples, that are absurdly similar, not because "they're easier to use" but because it's how everyone builds let's be serious, and it was literally shown in the World Cup. Data is anyway a way to illustrate w/e we want to say, it is not a truth by itself, but I think everyone that tries and wants to build seriously can acknowledge that what ghostlike said is not non-sens. You may agree or disagree and that is fine but at the end of the day, it is true that 4 mons were at 50% of usage during the WCuP, and that the samples are the same.
The main point in that anyway is : do you have fun in clicking Knock Off with your Manaphy against opposite Manaphy, Spin against opposite Tusk, and guess Gholdengo Ability based on which resistance your opponent team lacks. Personally, no. But if you do, yeah the meta is great. Is it specific to one mon? nah. Is it easy to solve? nah. Can we still complain? yeah! I agree with a lot of things Siamato said, that the meta is probably very competitive in its own way but also very boring because you often see the same structures with 1 or 2 variations, and yeah that might be competitive but it is so fucking boring to build and to play. Only dude I saw with interesting teams was Career Ended but then he reused some Gliscor shit in the phase pool so it was bad and then I got bored by the meta and stopped watching AAA games, so I do not know if he has the secret to make this meta interesting or if it was just 1 or 2 teams.
I'll just answer to a couple of things in the previous posts before I stop to make things clear because I feel like they mainly missed ghostlike's point
this is true if you only talk about "centralization" and not of the mons that are actually centralizing, which is what ghostlike does. He doesn't say "oh 4 mons are above 50% usage" but "oh 4 mons are at the top and two of them are Manaphy and Gholdengo and I think they're particularly unhealthy" (Manaphy's unhealthiness in particular is directly linked to its usage), and comparing it to the Great Tusk v Treads case is both completely wrong absolutely right.
It is completely wrong because you compare Treads and Tusk as if Treads replaced Tusk and nothing changed. Tusk v Tusk interactions were exactly like Manaphy v Manaphy interactions and it is part of why this thing was seen unhealthy, when Treads came up and replaced Tusk it was way less used, had 0 potential of sweeping, and was so less cancer in game. If you consider that Treads replaced (or at least partly) Tusk, this is one of the best change that happened in AAA because Treads is inherently way much healthier, and if the same could happen with Manaphy and Gholdengo I'd sign everyday, which is why it's also completely true : a centralising mon will get replaced, yeah, someone needs to get that usages. But necessarily as much AND not necessarily with cancer interactions. The opposite happened with RegenVest : ok we were a bit screwed up, but Roaring Moon / Goodra-H / Meloetta / Muk-A were all very healthy RegenVest with dedicated roles. Now Manaphy outclasses them 90% of the time, this change sucks.
I am not a DPP expert, and I think no one here is so I'd rather not go on that battlefield. However, Lando-T is in my opinion very different than Manaphy for 2 reasons : Scald and Regenerator. Regenerator is inherent to AAA (ban it?) but yeah it's not the same metagame, and Scald is top 3 damaging moves of the game (Knock Off is there too, oh it gets both. And U-Turn.) So Manaphy not only has good utility like Lando-T has, but also has absurd staying power (basically infinite) AND absurd progress maker (basically no one wants to come on Manaphy), which is veryyy different from what Lando-T can offer. And obviously the other sets, but tbf I do not care about them, Manaphy is not unhealthy bc it has Tail Glow or Take Heart, it's the cherry on the top (this motto sucks btw) but it's really minor
this is a valid point (and a point I targetted when talking abt Smogon jurists), and that is why Manaphy and Gholdengo are probably never going to get banned in this meta and prob in the next one. however, I think we can all agree that there is a massive difference between a Corviknight, that is 70% of the time Intimidate with 5 possible moves at max and that will always do the same thing and never threaten your team, and a Manaphy or a Gholdengo, the former being like Corviknight but you can't stop it from doing progress (it's like a super good athlete : you know what they're going to do, but you can't stop it from doing it), the second one being.. you don't know, and half of the games I finish when there was a Gholdengo I actually do not know what that Gholdengo was lol. So yeah, there's Corviknight and there's Keldeo, and in between there's Manaphy and Gholdengo. Not as unhealthy, but not as healthy.
alright this took me too much time cya for next ompl if this meta gets interesting again, blame Atha if not
I said I was going to make a post, here I am. It is not really important as it's pretty sure that nothing will change before the DLC and it's normal it would make little sens and I overall agree with the reasoning of suspect testing TDebris anyway cuz unless something magic come backs with the DLC it won't really change the efficiency of the ability and people won't change their mind. I have no idea of what's coming back with DLC so idk if Weavile might be less strong after, however it was pretty much SS Weavile and nothing in 9G rly helped to deal with it, although I haven't felt like Weavile was SO unstoppable so personnaly I wouldn't have QB'd it (esp with Pao around, Weavile is overall better than pao prob but harder to build around) but it's a minor issue.
So if nothing is gonna change, why do I do this post? it's mainly cuz as long as OM Champ is played in DLC 1 (if not I might drop idk I'll see) I prob won't play AAA a lot for the next months just as I did after OMPL, so it's now or never if I want to give a relatively good, or at least informed, opinion on the AAA meta. It's also good to have feedback in general I think, and to have discussions, even if they lead to nothing, just nice to share thoughts
As ghostlike stated in his post I do have a problem in Manaphy, and I already said that I do not really like the meta, and overall it's for the same reasons that ghostlike. I do know that he uses the term of "centralizing" with a definition that is maybe not what official Pokemon jurists use, and yeah the top 4 mons in usage are not "overly restrictive" or anything and are far from being broken, that is fully true. And that is also why they won't end up being banned, and that is probably normal.
However, this is not the point ghostlike is making. "The problem with this meta is that the mons at the top of it do their jobs better than any other and competition doesn't really exist". You may consider that it is not a problem, however, as someone who always tries to use funny techs in building and not use the same 6 mons cuz "they're solid", I've never felt so deprived. I looked at the teambuilder for hours, searching for a cool tech, a cool combination, something, the best thing I came up was Stamina Scream Tail. And that's terrible. Simply because everything I can think of fells to do something in a meta so outrageously dominated by 4 mons that can do everything you want in your team and in the opponent team, and if you try to build without them you end up 90% of the time with bad / shaky structures that are either fishing a MU or very specific. Or straight up bad, and some of them are. You can always drop one or two months, but at the end of they day, you have an idea, you build with it, you put an AV and it's Manaphy cuz it's the best, you put Corviknight cuz Pao check, you put Gholdengo cuz you lose to X threat that you need to cover with a random ability. And that's it. And that's your optimal 6. And you don't have another Defogger to use (or another Spinner for Tusk), and you don't have another mon that gives so much utility than Manaphy, and you don't have another Ghost/Steel type that can check w/e your team needs to check.
and yeah, it will never be "banworthy" things if you want, but it is still a massive fun-killer in the metagame. Nothing can rly stops it though, and it's also due to absurd move distribution (Koff everywhere, Defog nowhere), and maybe and hopefully DLC 2 will change that, which is why it is not interesting to make a change now.
About the data: it is true that ghostlike's datas weren't optimal. He used the statistics of only 1 tournament, with not that much games. However, I can confidently say that anyone who has played this meta seriously knows that the statistics of the World Cup or, if not a truth cuz it'd be a bit cocky, at least a general trend that you can't deny. That are reflected in the samples, that are absurdly similar, not because "they're easier to use" but because it's how everyone builds let's be serious, and it was literally shown in the World Cup. Data is anyway a way to illustrate w/e we want to say, it is not a truth by itself, but I think everyone that tries and wants to build seriously can acknowledge that what ghostlike said is not non-sens. You may agree or disagree and that is fine but at the end of the day, it is true that 4 mons were at 50% of usage during the WCuP, and that the samples are the same.
The main point in that anyway is : do you have fun in clicking Knock Off with your Manaphy against opposite Manaphy, Spin against opposite Tusk, and guess Gholdengo Ability based on which resistance your opponent team lacks. Personally, no. But if you do, yeah the meta is great. Is it specific to one mon? nah. Is it easy to solve? nah. Can we still complain? yeah! I agree with a lot of things Siamato said, that the meta is probably very competitive in its own way but also very boring because you often see the same structures with 1 or 2 variations, and yeah that might be competitive but it is so fucking boring to build and to play. Only dude I saw with interesting teams was Career Ended but then he reused some Gliscor shit in the phase pool so it was bad and then I got bored by the meta and stopped watching AAA games, so I do not know if he has the secret to make this meta interesting or if it was just 1 or 2 teams.
I'll just answer to a couple of things in the previous posts before I stop to make things clear because I feel like they mainly missed ghostlike's point
this is true if you only talk about "centralization" and not of the mons that are actually centralizing, which is what ghostlike does. He doesn't say "oh 4 mons are above 50% usage" but "oh 4 mons are at the top and two of them are Manaphy and Gholdengo and I think they're particularly unhealthy" (Manaphy's unhealthiness in particular is directly linked to its usage), and comparing it to the Great Tusk v Treads case is both completely wrong absolutely right.
It is completely wrong because you compare Treads and Tusk as if Treads replaced Tusk and nothing changed. Tusk v Tusk interactions were exactly like Manaphy v Manaphy interactions and it is part of why this thing was seen unhealthy, when Treads came up and replaced Tusk it was way less used, had 0 potential of sweeping, and was so less cancer in game. If you consider that Treads replaced (or at least partly) Tusk, this is one of the best change that happened in AAA because Treads is inherently way much healthier, and if the same could happen with Manaphy and Gholdengo I'd sign everyday, which is why it's also completely true : a centralising mon will get replaced, yeah, someone needs to get that usages. But necessarily as much AND not necessarily with cancer interactions. The opposite happened with RegenVest : ok we were a bit screwed up, but Roaring Moon / Goodra-H / Meloetta / Muk-A were all very healthy RegenVest with dedicated roles. Now Manaphy outclasses them 90% of the time, this change sucks.
I am not a DPP expert, and I think no one here is so I'd rather not go on that battlefield. However, Lando-T is in my opinion very different than Manaphy for 2 reasons : Scald and Regenerator. Regenerator is inherent to AAA (ban it?) but yeah it's not the same metagame, and Scald is top 3 damaging moves of the game (Knock Off is there too, oh it gets both. And U-Turn.) So Manaphy not only has good utility like Lando-T has, but also has absurd staying power (basically infinite) AND absurd progress maker (basically no one wants to come on Manaphy), which is veryyy different from what Lando-T can offer. And obviously the other sets, but tbf I do not care about them, Manaphy is not unhealthy bc it has Tail Glow or Take Heart, it's the cherry on the top (this motto sucks btw) but it's really minor
this is a valid point (and a point I targetted when talking abt Smogon jurists), and that is why Manaphy and Gholdengo are probably never going to get banned in this meta and prob in the next one. however, I think we can all agree that there is a massive difference between a Corviknight, that is 70% of the time Intimidate with 5 possible moves at max and that will always do the same thing and never threaten your team, and a Manaphy or a Gholdengo, the former being like Corviknight but you can't stop it from doing progress (it's like a super good athlete : you know what they're going to do, but you can't stop it from doing it), the second one being.. you don't know, and half of the games I finish when there was a Gholdengo I actually do not know what that Gholdengo was lol. So yeah, there's Corviknight and there's Keldeo, and in between there's Manaphy and Gholdengo. Not as unhealthy, but not as healthy.
alright this took me too much time cya for next ompl if this meta gets interesting again, blame Atha if not
Not sure if more than one or two people want to ban Great Tusk, but since it has so many different sets, none of which look particularly broken or centralizing, I really don't see it. Its impact on the meta is healthy imo. On to Gholdengo. I also find it hard to understand in what sense exactly Gholdengo is unhealthy. It's a very good immunity user, like Corv or Treads back when Tusk was banned. Most of them are defensive with a type immunity. Defensive Gholdengo is way harder to fully justify than what people think imo, and it ends up making a lot of teams incoherent because people put it in their teams without thinking. If you don't have the right teammates, it ends up being a momentum sink that makes little to no progress. It forces you to play on the special side to take advantage of T-Wave, or to support a Nasty Plot set ; which not all team want to opt for. On every role Gholdengo fulfils you can find multiple other options that are as good (e.g. Primsea Zapdos / WBB Corv / Primsea Wake if you want a Fire immunity) and might fit better in your team. In terms of concrete interactions, I don't see where it's unhealthy either, unless you find immunities annoying : welcome to aaa. Gholdengo will end up being in a lot of teams ; if it's not a problem in the builder nor in game, how it it one ? If I had to ban one of Great Tusk, Gholdengo and Manaphy, it would easily be Manaphy. The pokémon is undeniably centralizing, which is all the more unpleasant when we're talking about the Regen slot. It's also hard to deny that it has some unhealthy in-game aspects (it's a user of the plague that is Scald). My feelings on Manaphy aren't as clear-cut as on the two previous pokémons, but I'm still rather against the idea of banning it, for one simple reason: it's neither too centralizing, nor too broken, nor too unhealthy. There are other perfectly justifiable options on the Regen slot (Roaring Moon, Goodra-h, I personnally like Scizor offense); it doesn't constrain the builder enormously (I often try to give it as little space as possible, or if I have a pokémon that gives it space, I try to have one that takes it back, e.g. a Storm Drain user, a well-chosen Toxic Debris, ... - there are enough options); it's not that difficult to muscle through or cripple.You guys should try building offense a bit more, I think the style is too unexplored rn. I don't think the meta is that developed either, which is also a reason I don't want too much of a meta-shifting ban (except Toxic Debris, which should be banned).
I agree with points made by everyone above, but I think the biggest issue is that this is a gen 9 thing, not an AAA thing. I have been playing in and out since pre-home, and there has always been centralization, but it has usually felt like a centralization built on I am using this mon because it is one of two mons that is viable in this niche (In some cases the only viable mon!). I think a great example of this is defog. Looking at the viability rankings for this gen vs last, there are a total of 5 in the entirety of the gen 9 ranking
Whereas there are 7 in just the S-A rank of gen 8
Within those 5 for gen 9, only two (corv & mand) I have seen consistently (scizor is much more fringe). This perfectly encapsulates the bigger issue with Gen 9, there just simply aren't enough viable options, and of those viable options, there is usually one/two that are so fine-tuned that there is no reason not to use anything but. While tiering action can help with this a bit, at the end of the day it will not solve the fundamental issue.
Some thoughts on the 4-core discussed:
and are good and healthy mons, with both actually having quite a bit of viable set diversity. This mon... is somewhat conflicting to me, it really depends on who uses it/what ability, it either feels so annoying or so mid. Though personally I lean towards it being a great glue mon that adds more nuance to the defensive meta game. This thing is definitely the most boring and as stated by others the most likely that could actually be banned. In my sample team post I even mentioned how I tried other regenvesters but this thing just did what they all did but just better. I've had multiple games become knock, knock, burn fish with scald, and then hope you get the slow pivot u-turn. In that same post I also mention how good the core that y'all are talking about is, and how I need to stray away from building that way, have I been successful? Not particularly, but I believe that's more to do with my own shortcomings as a team builder more than anything else.
Another important thing to consider is that we have been playing this meta since September, and while there have been bans, unbans, and meta shifts, there is always that rut of meta kind of stale and a new horizon with dlc. Do I think the dlc will solve the fundamental flaw of gen 9 mon/dex design? No. However, I do think it will make the meta more fun and exciting for a while. Also if y'all are getting bored with/dislike Gen 9 AAA, there is always Nat Dex AAA, Ubers AAA, and other AAA challenge codes to switch it up a bit. I had fun playing Ubers and want to give ND a try as well.
I personally still enjoy the meta a lot, and think that while the defensive cores are very similar, there are still small nuances in the move/ability/EV sets that can keep the match-ups fresh. Finally, if you want real set/mon variety...go to the 12-1400 range on ladder, you will find people cooking things you didn't think were possible...it doesn't matter if they burned the kitchen down
Some thoughts on the 4-core discussed:
and are good and healthy mons, with both actually having quite a bit of viable set diversity. This mon... is somewhat conflicting to me, it really depends on who uses it/what ability, it either feels so annoying or so mid. Though personally I lean towards it being a great glue mon that adds more nuance to the defensive meta game. This thing is definitely the most boring and as stated by others the most likely that could actually be banned. In my sample team post I even mentioned how I tried other regenvesters but this thing just did what they all did but just better. I've had multiple games become knock, knock, burn fish with scald, and then hope you get the slow pivot u-turn. In that same post I also mention how good the core that y'all are talking about is, and how I need to stray away from building that way, have I been successful? Not particularly, but I believe that's more to do with my own shortcomings as a team builder more than anything else.Another important thing to consider is that we have been playing this meta since September, and while there have been bans, unbans, and meta shifts, there is always that rut of meta kind of stale and a new horizon with dlc. Do I think the dlc will solve the fundamental flaw of gen 9 mon/dex design? No. However, I do think it will make the meta more fun and exciting for a while. Also if y'all are getting bored with/dislike Gen 9 AAA, there is always Nat Dex AAA, Ubers AAA, and other AAA challenge codes to switch it up a bit. I had fun playing Ubers and want to give ND a try as well.
I personally still enjoy the meta a lot, and think that while the defensive cores are very similar, there are still small nuances in the move/ability/EV sets that can keep the match-ups fresh. Finally, if you want real set/mon variety...go to the 12-1400 range on ladder, you will find people cooking things you didn't think were possible...
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Oricorio-Sensu - The Toxic Debris Abuser
The set is as follows:
Oricorio-Sensu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Revelation Dance
- Air Slash / Hurricane
- Quiver Dance
- Roost
(EV's give maximum physical bulk whilst just enough speed EV's to outspeed the 350 speed tier after 1 Quiver Dance)
The idea behind the set and how it functions is similar in idea to Great Tusk, come in on weaker attacks such as Manaphy Knock Off or U-Turn, Corviknight, etc.. and punish them with Toxic Debris. The added benefit with Sensu is that it can spinblock non-scrappy variants of Great Tusk, setup on various Mons such as Corviknight which can easily lead to you snowballing and sweeping the match if they are overpreocuppied with clearing the Toxic Spikes you set. Air Slash versus Hurricane is a point of choice, the former is more consistent and still 2hko's all common variants of Great Tusk while the latter can 1hko on a roll, max hp Great Tusk. Revelation Dance is your spammable move and Quiver Dance is busted which is what lets it snowball. It is usably bulky enough to abuse Toxic Debris and all of this combines into what I consider a fantastic set. I am not exaggerating when I say it is ubelievably annoying to face, and is quite dangerous to boot.
Pros:
- Abuses Toxic Debris effectively versus all common setters
- Isn't scared of just about any Regenvesters barring two, Manaphy just annoys with Knock off or weak Ice Beams, Meloetta similarly can't do much in the face of Quiver Dance but pivot / pray for a Thunderbolt para, Goodras are forced to dragon tail which just activates Toxic Debris, Roaring Moon is a good answer defensively but hates Toxic Spikes, only Muk-Alola is an effective answer which is able to handle it realistically with a combination of Knock Off spam and Poison Fang and absorbs Toxic Debris
- Can sweep teams quite readily
- Gengar is scared of Revelation Dance
- Despite hefty investment it isn't all that bulky
- reliant on Heavy Duty Boots
- Iron Moth is a good answer generally speaking due to DesoLand Boosted Fiery Dance doing a metric crap ton but it isn't impervious
- Toxapex, Muk-a, Roaring Moon, Kingambit, etc... all are roadblocks to Sensu supremacy
- 0 SpA Oricorio-Sensu Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 384-452 (88.4 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
- 0 SpA Oricorio-Sensu Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 264-312 (60.8 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Oricorio-Sensu: 222-262 (62.7 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Oricorio-Sensu: 182-216 (51.4 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 0 SpA Oricorio-Sensu Revelation Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 240-284 (91.9 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
- 0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Oricorio-Sensu: 109-129 (30.7 - 36.4%) -- 54.3% chance to 3HKO
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Very bored right now so here I am. I don't think I'm gonna be laddering too much for the forseeable future so I'm gonna share the team I've been using. It has been incredibly consistent and has a solid overall matchup spread. I guess this is a sample submission but the team probably isn't sample material because it's unconventional and not the most intuitive to pilot.
The team general plays to overwhelm the opponent with the core of Stone Edge Dragonite, Scarf Scrappy Great Tusk, and Banded Chien-Pao. Gengar is an incredibly self-sufficient wallbreaker that heavily threatens the physically defensive Pokemon that the other three members of the offensive core can struggle with, as well as absorbing Toxic Spikes. Heatran provides Stealth Rock and checks several big special attackers that offense dislikes having to face in Walking Wake, Primordial Sea Zapdos, Azelf, and offensive Manaphy. PhysDef Regen Manaphy rounds out the team, being an overall good pivot that can handle a lot of otherwise annoying mons.
The Dragonite set probably needs some explaining. The team initially started out as a way to test how effective Stone Edge Dragonite was. Stone Edge does one primary thing: kill Zapdos. "But why not use Ice Spinner?" That's simple, Stone Edge avoids both Fluffy and Rocky Helmet, on top of getting more impressive calcs in general. The spread outspeeds Sandy Shocks after a Dragon Dance while having the best odds against Triage Kommo-o's Life Orb boosted Drain Punch at +6 (s/o Quantum Tesseract for suggesting this.) There's 4 EVs leftover so they're shoved into SpDef (putting it into HP increases Stealth Rock damage.)
You know what SFLO Gengar does. If you really dislike Focus Blast, you can run Hadron Engine with Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, and Thunderbolt. This comes with some other nice benefits like getting through Bulletproof mons and threatening to OHKO RegenVest Roaring Moon and Manaphy (on switch-in and at +2, respectively.) BUT this means you really struggle into Blissey and Hoodra (very relevant against stall as Gengar is your main stallbreaker) and greatly reduces longevity, making it far easier to beat by pivoting around it.
The Great Tusk is another abnormal set. Scrappy is crucial because you want spin to be unblockable, especially if you're locking into it, and because you want to be able to hit Earth Eater Gholdengo, which otherwise walls Tusk and Dragonite. Knock Off is important—especially so post-Weavile ban—because it lets you overwhelm defensive mons (read: Corviknight) a lot easier. No ground STAB because you really don't want No Guard Zapdos coming in for free; you can make it work, it's just inadviseable.
You know what Chien-Pao does. Was Weavile before ban but Chien-Pao is almost as effective, and the better speed tier is nice.
Heatran is rather standard. Power Gem is pretty mandatory because you do not want Primordial Sea Zapdos coming in for free. You can run Earth Power over Will-O-Wisp to hit WBB Gholdengo if you want. 24 Speed IVs underspeeds minimum speed Manaphy.
Manaphy set is very interesting. I haven't seen any other PhysDef Manaphy outside of Take Heart sets on screens and shit. It's very good IMO because it's just such a versatile pivot. Rocky Helmet lets you punish U-turn (primarily from Corviknight) with some quite significant chip damage, and allows you to play around major threats. Take Heart and U-turn may seem counter-intuitive, but Take Heart allows you to force plays that you can abuse with U-turn. If you drop Knock Off on Tusk, it's absolutely mandatory on Manaphy. You can run minimum speed (especially helpful for getting Gengar in on defensive Gholdengo) but I find being able to outspeed defensive Tusk and the like to be more valuable.
It's probably worth noting that there are a lot of threats that you just don't have consistent counterplay to. You also have two fast and very strong mons, strong priority, and a scarfer so it's not hard to figure out how you should beat those threats.
I wrote a lot more than I initially intended (again). Hope you enjoyed the read though.
The team general plays to overwhelm the opponent with the core of Stone Edge Dragonite, Scarf Scrappy Great Tusk, and Banded Chien-Pao. Gengar is an incredibly self-sufficient wallbreaker that heavily threatens the physically defensive Pokemon that the other three members of the offensive core can struggle with, as well as absorbing Toxic Spikes. Heatran provides Stealth Rock and checks several big special attackers that offense dislikes having to face in Walking Wake, Primordial Sea Zapdos, Azelf, and offensive Manaphy. PhysDef Regen Manaphy rounds out the team, being an overall good pivot that can handle a lot of otherwise annoying mons.
The Dragonite set probably needs some explaining. The team initially started out as a way to test how effective Stone Edge Dragonite was. Stone Edge does one primary thing: kill Zapdos. "But why not use Ice Spinner?" That's simple, Stone Edge avoids both Fluffy and Rocky Helmet, on top of getting more impressive calcs in general. The spread outspeeds Sandy Shocks after a Dragon Dance while having the best odds against Triage Kommo-o's Life Orb boosted Drain Punch at +6 (s/o Quantum Tesseract for suggesting this.) There's 4 EVs leftover so they're shoved into SpDef (putting it into HP increases Stealth Rock damage.)
You know what SFLO Gengar does. If you really dislike Focus Blast, you can run Hadron Engine with Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, and Thunderbolt. This comes with some other nice benefits like getting through Bulletproof mons and threatening to OHKO RegenVest Roaring Moon and Manaphy (on switch-in and at +2, respectively.) BUT this means you really struggle into Blissey and Hoodra (very relevant against stall as Gengar is your main stallbreaker) and greatly reduces longevity, making it far easier to beat by pivoting around it.
The Great Tusk is another abnormal set. Scrappy is crucial because you want spin to be unblockable, especially if you're locking into it, and because you want to be able to hit Earth Eater Gholdengo, which otherwise walls Tusk and Dragonite. Knock Off is important—especially so post-Weavile ban—because it lets you overwhelm defensive mons (read: Corviknight) a lot easier. No ground STAB because you really don't want No Guard Zapdos coming in for free; you can make it work, it's just inadviseable.
You know what Chien-Pao does. Was Weavile before ban but Chien-Pao is almost as effective, and the better speed tier is nice.
Heatran is rather standard. Power Gem is pretty mandatory because you do not want Primordial Sea Zapdos coming in for free. You can run Earth Power over Will-O-Wisp to hit WBB Gholdengo if you want. 24 Speed IVs underspeeds minimum speed Manaphy.
Manaphy set is very interesting. I haven't seen any other PhysDef Manaphy outside of Take Heart sets on screens and shit. It's very good IMO because it's just such a versatile pivot. Rocky Helmet lets you punish U-turn (primarily from Corviknight) with some quite significant chip damage, and allows you to play around major threats. Take Heart and U-turn may seem counter-intuitive, but Take Heart allows you to force plays that you can abuse with U-turn. If you drop Knock Off on Tusk, it's absolutely mandatory on Manaphy. You can run minimum speed (especially helpful for getting Gengar in on defensive Gholdengo) but I find being able to outspeed defensive Tusk and the like to be more valuable.
It's probably worth noting that there are a lot of threats that you just don't have consistent counterplay to. You also have two fast and very strong mons, strong priority, and a scarfer so it's not hard to figure out how you should beat those threats.
I wrote a lot more than I initially intended (again). Hope you enjoyed the read though.
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Toxic Debris is now banned: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-aaa-suspect-8-toxic-debris.3732246/post-9883800
Oh, I meant to add: The council held a vote on Chien-Pao since it's been an on and off topic of discussion. As it turns out...
Oh, I meant to add: The council held a vote on Chien-Pao since it's been an on and off topic of discussion. As it turns out...
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I thought i'd talk about a team i've been using since the annihilape suspect.
Bulky offense team that revolves around breaking physical walls with choice banded roaring moon and swords dance kingambit. I found these 2 dark types able to break stuff like corviknight and great tusk pretty good. Sandy shocks acts as speed control and a way to pivot into roaring moon as well as a way to annoy knocked manaphy. Then lastly prankster hoopa, originally I had gholdengo in the last slot but it was a momentum sinker so i changed that to prankster hoopa and surprisingly it has done very well for the team. It helps against random sweepers or pokemon you end up being unable to handle. Additionally it helps against hyper offense teams since it can block screens corviknight and destiny bond on a sweeper allowing the rest of the team to have an easier time. Hope you enjoyed the team!
Bulky offense team that revolves around breaking physical walls with choice banded roaring moon and swords dance kingambit. I found these 2 dark types able to break stuff like corviknight and great tusk pretty good. Sandy shocks acts as speed control and a way to pivot into roaring moon as well as a way to annoy knocked manaphy. Then lastly prankster hoopa, originally I had gholdengo in the last slot but it was a momentum sinker so i changed that to prankster hoopa and surprisingly it has done very well for the team. It helps against random sweepers or pokemon you end up being unable to handle. Additionally it helps against hyper offense teams since it can block screens corviknight and destiny bond on a sweeper allowing the rest of the team to have an easier time. Hope you enjoyed the team!
We decided to take a page from OU's book and gauge public opinion on which Pokemon and abilities should be unbanned with the release of the upcoming DLC. Following this survey, the council will conduct an unban vote on every Pokemon that received sufficient support. In order for a Pokemon that is currently banned to start unbanned in AAA after a DLC, it requires 50% + 1 unban votes from the council. For this list, we selected Pokemon and abilities that at least one council member agrees could be unbanned from the banlist. This list does not include Pokemon that will be newly dropped to SV with the Indigo Disk DLC.
Anyone with a Smogon account may respond. We will keep this open through 09:59 PM GMT-6 of Tuesday, December 12th, but the council will be reading responses as they come in to potentially act sooner, so respond when possible. It only takes a few minutes to respond, so please do so if you are invested in our metagame!
>> CLICK THIS TO FILL OUT THE SURVEY <<
Anyone with a Smogon account may respond. We will keep this open through 09:59 PM GMT-6 of Tuesday, December 12th, but the council will be reading responses as they come in to potentially act sooner, so respond when possible. It only takes a few minutes to respond, so please do so if you are invested in our metagame!
>> CLICK THIS TO FILL OUT THE SURVEY <<
2AC: 2 - i feel like 1AC has been fine for this gen, and i haven't seen much community support for 2AC, as many people who played 2AC in aaapl were unhappy with it
4 - hot take, but we have ways to deal with it now. regenvest manaphy can scout since it's 3HKOed by freeze dry, desoland moth stuffs it unless it's running tinted but that's a lot worse than primsea into everything else, empoleon, desoland other regenvest mons like hoodra and melo also easily beat it. the offensive counterplay is admittedly limited, but azelf, ogerpon-h, and ceruledge can all check it, with dnite being able to OHKO with a life orb after rocks chip
3 - mon is pretty similar to gar, who's fine rn. the mg sets could def be something to watch out for though
5 - i remember Isaiah saying that if all the triage mons were freed then triage would be banned, and this thing is def not banworthy without triage lol
4 - this is probably fine without triage. moldy and surge surfer sets could be something to watch out for but it sounds manageable
3 - this could potentially be broken without triage. mon is super fat and can run lots of different immunity abilities or just straight up CB SoR because all of our physical walls are weak to electric lol
3 - i really don't know how to feel about this mon. another defogger and spinblocker is nice ig, but this thing is just super fat and can run setup. plus this opens up the rabbit hole of "well why not unban X uber because it's worse than Y which is legal"
2 - as much as i like to joke about freeing this, it'd make setup mons too broken
1 - this thing is broken without dire claw lol. 130 attack 120 speed fighting type with CC and u-turn, as well as a RNG stab move? yeah no thanks
3 - on the one hand it would give us an actual offensive fairy type, but on the other hand it could def be too difficult to handle for the meta with its coverage
1 - yeah no thanks setup mons with this were stupid
(magic bounce) 2 - i'm a bit iffy on this one, but leaning towards no because i don't like it being able to bounce back hazards
also... we're still freeing
right?
4 - hot take, but we have ways to deal with it now. regenvest manaphy can scout since it's 3HKOed by freeze dry, desoland moth stuffs it unless it's running tinted but that's a lot worse than primsea into everything else, empoleon, desoland other regenvest mons like hoodra and melo also easily beat it. the offensive counterplay is admittedly limited, but azelf, ogerpon-h, and ceruledge can all check it, with dnite being able to OHKO with a life orb after rocks chip 3 - mon is pretty similar to gar, who's fine rn. the mg sets could def be something to watch out for though 5 - i remember Isaiah saying that if all the triage mons were freed then triage would be banned, and this thing is def not banworthy without triage lol 4 - this is probably fine without triage. moldy and surge surfer sets could be something to watch out for but it sounds manageable 3 - this could potentially be broken without triage. mon is super fat and can run lots of different immunity abilities or just straight up CB SoR because all of our physical walls are weak to electric lol 3 - i really don't know how to feel about this mon. another defogger and spinblocker is nice ig, but this thing is just super fat and can run setup. plus this opens up the rabbit hole of "well why not unban X uber because it's worse than Y which is legal" 2 - as much as i like to joke about freeing this, it'd make setup mons too broken 1 - this thing is broken without dire claw lol. 130 attack 120 speed fighting type with CC and u-turn, as well as a RNG stab move? yeah no thanks 3 - on the one hand it would give us an actual offensive fairy type, but on the other hand it could def be too difficult to handle for the meta with its coverage 1 - yeah no thanks setup mons with this were stupid (magic bounce) 2 - i'm a bit iffy on this one, but leaning towards no because i don't like it being able to bounce back hazardsalso... we're still freeing
right?
Oh... DLC 2 is actually coming out tomorrow (Dec 13 rather than 14) in NA haha, imagine not realizing that until now...
Anyway, stuff we're voting on atm:
Kyurem-W/B too, oops
Super quick survey results (numbers = average rating, might be slightly off depending on people making edits but shouldn't be anything significant):
2AC: 2.612 (No Test / Action)
Bundle: 2.453 (No Action)
Zoro-H: 3.271 (Potential Vote)
Hariyama: 3.449 (Potential Vote)
Ursaluna: 3.131 (Potential Vote)
Iron Hands: 2.758 (No Action)
Giratina: 2.579 (No Action)
Poison Heal: 2.066 (No Action)
Sneasler: 2.39 (No Action)
Enam-I: 2.51 (No Action)
Ice Scales: 2.499 (No Action)
Fur Coat: 2.031 (No Action)
Magic Bounce: 2.291 (No Action)
Will post DLC ban/unban slate tomorrow morningish!
Anyway, stuff we're voting on atm:
Kyurem-W/B too, oops
Super quick survey results (numbers = average rating, might be slightly off depending on people making edits but shouldn't be anything significant):
2AC: 2.612 (No Test / Action)
Bundle: 2.453 (No Action)
Zoro-H: 3.271 (Potential Vote)
Hariyama: 3.449 (Potential Vote)
Ursaluna: 3.131 (Potential Vote)
Iron Hands: 2.758 (No Action)
Giratina: 2.579 (No Action)
Poison Heal: 2.066 (No Action)
Sneasler: 2.39 (No Action)
Enam-I: 2.51 (No Action)
Ice Scales: 2.499 (No Action)
Fur Coat: 2.031 (No Action)
Magic Bounce: 2.291 (No Action)
Prompt: For each of the following Pokemon, please give your opinion by selecting a number on a scale of 1 to 5; 1 indicates that you think it should definitely stay banned, 3 indicates that you think it is potentially worthy of being unbanned, 5 indicates that you think it should definitely be unbanned.
Nothing in free response received enough support to add extra elements to the voting slate.
Nothing in free response received enough support to add extra elements to the voting slate.
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DLC 2 VOTING SLATE
| Unban? | Isaiah | DFM | QT | Tranquility | Atha | Ivar57 | LordBox | Result |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Hariyama | UNBAN | UNBAN | UNBAN | KEEP BANNED | KEEP BANNED | ABS | KEEP BANNED | 3-3-1 KEEP BANNED |
| Zoroark-H | UNBAN | UNBAN | UNBAN | UNBAN | UNBAN | UNBAN | KEEP BANNED | 6-1 UNBAN |
| Ursaluna | UNBAN | UNBAN | UNBAN | KEEP BANNED | KEEP BANNED | ABS | KEEP BANNED | 3-3-1 KEEP BANNED |
===================================================================================================
The council also voted on some other stuff based on datamine information regarding incoming legendaries:
| Ban? | Isaiah | DFM | QT | Tranquility | Atha | Ivar57 | LordBox | Result |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Dawn Wings | No | No | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | 5-2 BAN |
| Dusk Mane | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | 7-0 BAN |
| Ho-Oh | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | 7-0 BAN |
| Kyurem-Base | No | No | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | 5-2 BAN |
| Kyurem-Black | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | 7-0 BAN |
| Kyurem-White | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | 7-0 BAN |
| Lugia | No | Yes | No | No | Yes | Yes | Yes | 4-3 BAN |
| Lunala | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | 7-0 BAN |
| Reshiram | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | 7-0 BAN |
| Solgaleo | Yes | Yes | No | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | 6-1 BAN |
| Zekrom | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | 7-0 BAN |
Zoroark-H will be unbanned with the release of Indigo Disk DLC!
Nothing else to report until we have more concrete information about new abilities and whatnot.
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Maybe, but it'll start out free :P
you're welcome btw
proof below
smogon won't let me upload the video so the interaction is iron ball cerul to secure lowest speed on field was skill swapped triage by tink and proceeded to go first next turn. presumably matcha gotcha works as well but i haven't gotten that far in testing
edit: works with matcha gotcha as well confirmed
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