AAA Almost Any Ability

[MZ]

The only thing my game is proof of is that I'm a thrower, even defending deo isn't worth all the paragraphs of analysis there. Anyway I do understand the reflexive instinct to want it gone because the mon is fast and strong and can hit a lot of common defensive things, but we simply have far too many checks for it to remotely be worth considering right now. If you're honestly looking at Deo-S and going "I don't have enough counterplay for this in the tier" then you've completely lost me. I can see a future where people come up with new strategies around it that break it, perhaps Psychic Terrain or something, but any attempt to pull conclusive evidence from recent games has thoroughly lost the plot.

 

[TDLoriat]

Copperajahs in the room thoughts:

Deoxys-Speed :
I can see both sides of the argument here, but I’m currently sitting on the Do-No-Ban-Wagon because I haven’t seen it do anything yet. I am completely receptive to any proof that it warps the meta unhelpfully, but all I’ve seen is one over analyzed set where it didn’t do more than a reasonable offensive breaker could. If someone is going to break it, don’t hold off on the tech for some late OMPL week. The health of the tier is more important than a custom avatar.

Dragonite :
This dude I get the hype about. Yes there is counterplay, there almost always is. But that doesn’t make it healthy. Stab Aerilate Extreme Speed breaks so much, but would be fine by itself. The issue is how many coverage moves and viable sets Dragonite can run to beat its checks. Flamethrower and thunderbolt fry flying types, and earthquake fries things like Pecharunt. Reliable recovery lowers the consequences of life orb, and a solid defensive typing means it lives plenty of hits. Speed control is growing more consolidated, specifically around Dragonite.

Ice Scales :
I get the intent. I truly do. There are quite a few dumb special breakers. But this isn’t it. I say this because there is very little stopping people from running an offensive Ice Scales mon and sweeping half the tier. You mean to help defensive mons, but I can see how just as many offensive mons could become gamebreaking because of it.

Scream Tail Viability :
This is not a ban campaign! I would however like to comment on the discussion around how this pokemon should be ranked. I cannot formally issue my apology to this pokemon yet due to not having the results I want. However I will lightly touch on the topic to give my opinion: Scream tail is good, but definitely nowhere close to the viability of the big 4 (Manaphy, Great Tusk, Roaring Moon, Corviknight). It has quite a few very admirable traits, but is held back by its 65 base special attack. It runs into a lot of moveslot issues, but can still accomplish what it needs to. A+ to A- ranks.

I don’t recall anyone on discord posting this here, so I guess I’ll do the honors.
https://tiermaker.com/create/aaa-viability-rankings-17201365
That is a custom tier list made by the wonderful Codename C.A.T that should feature nearly every viable AAA pokemon. Happy VR making!

 

[Betticus IV]

Wanted to go over some thoughts about some mons and the current discourse as it has been a month since I posted and waiting until after OMPL feels too long.

Deoxys-Speed isn't even really that broken in terms of power, it's just the speed-tier it forces on your team is a bit annoying/restricting. You would need a scarf mon with like base 104 speed to outspeed timid (You really don't want to play around with its speed tier as I don't think 459 is the best spread) and that only gives a few viable scarfers. Scarf ghold is the exception to the faster than deos scarf thing, but that is a testament to how good scarf ghold is more than anything. I think there is some interesting defensive counterplay that can/will be explored in the coming weeks to help reign in the fears around this mon. This was the mon to watch out for after the wake ban, and while it has proven itself to be good, it's nowhere near the level wake was.

Deos in relation to dnite is interesting. I think that the sflo sets are one of the reasons that dnite is so appealing, as it is able to check that set and psysurge (the better set) gives such a drastic damage reduction you can easily build around this with teammates. Dnite is also one of the very few reliable +1 volcarona checks now that wake is banned. Outside of speed control and checking big threats, it has great defensive utility as well, due to its typing, bulk, and access to reliable recovery. I personally think dnite is an amazing mon, and if the meta shifts away from physdef mana cores, it could become a bit more problematic. I don't think it's banworthy rn tho. I think this because its set variety, defensive utility, and speed control add a layer of complexity to the builder and teams that cannot be found in other mons. I also believe it wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue if other physical breakers that add less unique things to the meta were looked at first.

I personally think the mons that are worse to prep for/build around are chien and boulder. I think if people want a more 'balanced' and slower paced meta these two mons will have to be looked at for what they force in builder and how they are able to blow up defensive counterplay bar ones specifically tailored to them.

​

I definitely think this is a hot take, but Iron Boulder is an annoying mon to build for and play with, and really adds nothing of value to the meta. It is literally just a powercrept Oger-C. The most common counterplay is Fluffy Corv pivot + physical scarfer clean (or scarf ghold). Though even then this is a bit precarious, because boulder can still do massive damage to corv after +2, either outright KOing if not fluff or opening enough for the rest of its team, and can even tech taunt for roosts/defog (to deny webs removal) on corv. Defensive gholdengo is another semi-check but it's forced to recover on the switchins/can't really help after a +2. I have also seen this mon tech throat chop/eq for ghold, so anything outside of like ee ghold for defensive variant isn't the best. Fluffy tusk would be an excellent check if psycho cut made contact, but luckily it has an answer for another one of the most common defensive guys. Any other form of defensive answers is just cope and doesn't really stop this mon from 2HKOing or OHKOing everything on the field before and especially after an SD. I don't think the other fast strong guys (pao/zam) punish slow teams as heavily as boulder does, which is why I think it is most significant. The combo of SD + mighty cleave + psycho cut + fighting is all it needs to effectively dismantle most slower structures and especially defensive cores. With this mon gone I also believe it could reasonably open the door for phys def regen to become much more viable and less constricted in terms of the teammates/cores they can run, which would be huge. Stall would probably become a bit better? At the same time though I doubt this because there would still be so many effective stall breakers that the playstyle would still struggle (esp since oger-c has such a similar role), if anything this would be a boon for slow/bulky balance. The worst part about this mon? It is so mid in practice, but that is because it forces so much in builder that it doesn't feel like an issue in game, but if you want to stray away from the certain builds/cores that beat this guy, it becomes much more problematic.

​

Another mon that forces so many things in the builder but is mid in practice because every team has to prep heavy for it. There has already been so much said ab this mon by me and others, so I will try to keep it brief. Even if you stack multiple resists, this thing barely needs to predict and even when it gets it wrong can still force recovery/flinch through. I disagree with the unban of zam to partially help balance chien out, a lame reason to let something out and if anything the unban of zam made chien even more annoying to answer since you most likely want a fluff and/or ghost type on your team to check that threat, opening up avenues for chien. Finally, I also disagree with its win rate/tour usage as reasoning for keeping it, as its mere presence in the builder combined with the many other threats feels like too much sometimes.

I think looking at these 3 mons on the physical side will help understand why there may be some dissatisfaction with the current defensive cores. Dnite and chien forced phys def mana to become a thing, a testament of how threatening they are (yes phys def checks so many other things but these two are by far the most important reason imo). Even this isn't enough, as you would need other teammates to come in on their coverage moves, meaning at least 2 slots are given up just to check these mons. These three mons have different ways of answering them, and due to this have narrowed down what one can viably run on the phys def side. This makes you either trapped with the same exploitable core or stray a little off the path and forfeit a match-up to one. Being pulled in so many directions on the physical side also impacts how special cores feel, and I think cleaning up the physical side will help open the door for greater and more diverse spdef cores on a team.

In conclusion, two of these mons are mid in practice but because of how much pressure they exert in the builder alone, they restrict what is viable to what I view is an unhealthy degree. Dnite I am more on the fence about, and think would be more manageable with less physical threats to account for. This mon is the one I would least like to see banned because it offers a unique offensive and defensive profile the other two do not. If the phys def side is looked at first, then I believe the spdef side will also feel some relief as there can be more space on a team for special answers.

Lastly I will say this: I think people have to reckon with the fact that certain physical mons are locking out multiple different defensive options/cores, while not offering anything of true value that other mons can't do but a bit more balanced/healthy for the meta (i.e. Oger-C instead of boulder, mamo instead of chien). I don't get the propping up of deos as the next special attacking boogeymen when there are physical threats that have been problematic for much longer and proven themselves to be good. I also think the physical mon constraints will become much more apparent as OMPL goes on and people try to stray away from the cores that have been used heavily these past two weeks.

​

 

[Betticus IV]

After talking ab it in the council cord a little, and feeling like waiting until after ompl feels too long, I thought I would talk about another physical breaker within the tier that puts pressure in the builder and in game, and actually has the results to back it up so I won't be talking mainly from a building perspective this time.

​

Roaring Moon has shown itself to be one of the best mons so far throughout this ompl, with it being consistently in the top 2 for usage throughout the whole series. I expect this to stay the same throughout the rest of the tournament, as it is clearly the #1 mon in the tier right now. Its ability to make progress while simultaneously enabling its teammates is something no other mon does to the degree of efficiency moon does. What sets it apart from other fast strong pivots is its defensive utility. 105 hp and 101 spdef mean that this mon has insane natural bulk, and uninvested this allows it to live many stray hits and come in as a defensive answer to many special mons. Its typing is also not that bad, with dragon/dark giving key resistances and even an immunity.

Moon's movepool isn't particularly deep, but has the exact tools it needs to excel even further. A large majority of the time this mon is clicking two moves: knock off and u-turn. Due to knock being stab, paired with its amazing offensive stats, this move is hitting like a truck when you have an item and still doing a decent amount even after removal. After knocking, moon can make a pretty riskless fast uturn (further chipping a mon) into another threat or defensive option. It can use either outrage/dclaw/eq/lash/taunt/roost to further flesh out its last two slots depending on its set, but these moves are added bonuses and it really doesn't need much else.

Its stats combined with its movepool allow for it run a variety of sets that are perfectly viable and have different offensive/defensive ways of beating them. Scarf is the tried and true set, with it providing amazing speed control with powerful knocks and pivoting. Clearing paths for teammates with knocks and fast pivots, all while acting as an excellent late game cleaner. Band allows moon to become a true breaker, turning usual switch-ins into fodder as many teams do not have meaningful ways for accounting for the significant increase in damage. Regenvest is an excellent anti-meta pick that sets itself apart by checking what usually beats the water regens all while applying a power and speed that the other regens do not offer. Finally, mglo sets take the power of sor and the longevity of regenvest and combines it into one.

What further exacerbated moon is the rise of its mglo set, which negated the previously main way of dealing with its other sets: passive damage. When sor was the most common set, using helmet and rocks to slowly chip it/not let it come in for free everytime was a meaningful way of beating it. Mglo negates this entirely, while functionally still keeping the sor boost thanks to lo. Yes you lose out on speed control, but in turn you gain insane longevity and keep relatively the same damage output. 370 is still an excellent speed tier anyway, as that really only leaves meow, boulder, chien, zam, deos, and scarfers as faster mons that meaningfully threaten you, which can very easily be built around. Many of the aforementioned mons can't even come in on moon, as they do not have the defensive capabilities of switching into a knock and/or uturn, bar zam, but that has the issue of getting worn down very easily.

On paper this mon is amazing, and in practice it is even better. There really isn't a set way of beating this mon. The most common defensive answers of corv and tusk get knocked and then become pivot fodder. Pech is another mon that has risen to answer moon but takes so much from knock and at best trades with it, though usually moon is in the driver seat as it can just pivot on the dbond while simultaneously preventing pech's own pivoting and does not care about malignant as mg prevents poison damage. Rmoon can always just shut down recovery options against it by slotting in taunt, which isn't too big of an ask as 99% of the time its clicking knock or uturn anyway. The best way of shutting down moon is forcing a burn on it via flame body/wisp, with the former being somewhat difficult to slot in on balance teams and the ladder prob being the best way tbh. Due to not being able to check this mon longterm defensively, it really becomes a game of how you can out offense the moon and apply your own pressure faster. Moon is in no small part one of the key reasons for the fast pace meta we have right now, and it knocking and pivoting allows for even faster threats to come in easier than ever.

So moon is an excellent stat ball of a mon that can provide simultaneously offensive pressure, defensive pressure, the ability to break, clean, and can even lure mons in with ability or movepool. However, its most important aspect, and the thing that I think makes moon truly insidious, is the fact that is by far and away the best enabler in the tier. Every strong mon benefits immensely from moon being able to knock their checks and pivot them in so freely. The closest mon that fits moons role is meow, and despite being faster and providing stab knock/pivot, is actually balanced by its typing, bulk, and decreased power level. Meow only feels anti-meta atp for its ability to punish the tusk/water regen/rmoon cores, but thuds so hard into corv/pech and offers no defensively utility it feels too honest in comparison to moon (you can run mixed lo adapt, but like that loses 10% every turn and has no longevity, one of the biggest draws of rmoon). Sure there will always be fast knock pivot mons in the tier, but moon is literally the only mon do it so well and with such flexibility. You would either need a scarfer, a mediocre speed tier mon (350-3 is what ur looking at with B+-C ranked mons, and the ogers running knock uturn would be an especially bad set), or the more honest meow to replicate what moon does, but these all have drawbacks that moon does not. First it felt like rmoon + wake was the broken combo, now it feels like rmoon + dnite is the broken combo, and if dnite is banned it will be rmoon + whatever is the next broken offensive combo. How long before every partner it has is banned before we realize that the enabler is simultaneously also the issue.

I think looking at this mon is important because it balances out what a knock pivot mon should be in this tier. It can either be a slow defensive pivot that deals reduced damage, or is a fast glass cannon that deals large amounts of damage, not both. I also believe it would help alleviate some pressures breakers put on the tier: as they would not have nearly as free of an entry point without moon, would be easier for teams to hold onto their items since moon threatens so many things with its knock, and moon wouldn't be breaking teams itself before the other breakers/cleaners come in.

At the very least I will say I am consistent, I have brought up all 4 mons of chien, boulder, dnite, and rmoon for the past 4 months (chien for longer) as either being being the cream of the crop or too much for the meta. I do think I have talked about these mons long enough and really want to see some type of action on the physical side, as special breakers have really felt like a non-issue especially after wakes ban. I will also reiterate I think looking at the physical side will help on the special as you won't need to dedicate 2-3 slots to 'beat' just a small portion of physical mons. I don't really think 2ac is the solution to the meta issue right now, as it doesn't really address the fact that there are too many threats, but am open to the idea of trying it in conjunction with banning/banning mons and then seeing if 2ac is still worth. I don't really think it would take that many bans to see a SAC meta work as well, and with less threats in the meta moon would prob feel less annoying.

 

[LordBox]

After talking ab it in the council cord a little, and feeling like waiting until after ompl feels too long, I thought I would talk about another physical breaker within the tier that puts pressure in the builder and in game, and actually has the results to back it up so I won't be talking mainly from a building perspective this time.

​

Roaring Moon has shown itself to be one of the best mons so far throughout this ompl, with it being consistently in the top 2 for usage throughout the whole series. I expect this to stay the same throughout the rest of the tournament, as it is clearly the #1 mon in the tier right now. Its ability to make progress while simultaneously enabling its teammates is something no other mon does to the degree of efficiency moon does. What sets it apart from other fast strong pivots is its defensive utility. 105 hp and 101 spdef mean that this mon has insane natural bulk, and uninvested this allows it to live many stray hits and come in as a defensive answer to many special mons. Its typing is also not that bad, with dragon/dark giving key resistances and even an immunity.

Moon's movepool isn't particularly deep, but has the exact tools it needs to excel even further. A large majority of the time this mon is clicking two moves: knock off and u-turn. Due to knock being stab, paired with its amazing offensive stats, this move is hitting like a truck when you have an item and still doing a decent amount even after removal. After knocking, moon can make a pretty riskless fast uturn (further chipping a mon) into another threat or defensive option. It can use either outrage/dclaw/eq/lash/taunt/roost to further flesh out its last two slots depending on its set, but these moves are added bonuses and it really doesn't need much else.

Its stats combined with its movepool allow for it run a variety of sets that are perfectly viable and have different offensive/defensive ways of beating them. Scarf is the tried and true set, with it providing amazing speed control with powerful knocks and pivoting. Clearing paths for teammates with knocks and fast pivots, all while acting as an excellent late game cleaner. Band allows moon to become a true breaker, turning usual switch-ins into fodder as many teams do not have meaningful ways for accounting for the significant increase in damage. Regenvest is an excellent anti-meta pick that sets itself apart by checking what usually beats the water regens all while applying a power and speed that the other regens do not offer. Finally, mglo sets take the power of sor and the longevity of regenvest and combines it into one.

What further exacerbated moon is the rise of its mglo set, which negated the previously main way of dealing with its other sets: passive damage. When sor was the most common set, using helmet and rocks to slowly chip it/not let it come in for free everytime was a meaningful way of beating it. Mglo negates this entirely, while functionally still keeping the sor boost thanks to lo. Yes you lose out on speed control, but in turn you gain insane longevity and keep relatively the same damage output. 370 is still an excellent speed tier anyway, as that really only leaves meow, boulder, chien, zam, deos, and scarfers as faster mons that meaningfully threaten you, which can very easily be built around. Many of the aforementioned mons can't even come in on moon, as they do not have the defensive capabilities of switching into a knock and/or uturn, bar zam, but that has the issue of getting worn down very easily.

On paper this mon is amazing, and in practice it is even better. There really isn't a set way of beating this mon. The most common defensive answers of corv and tusk get knocked and then become pivot fodder. Pech is another mon that has risen to answer moon but takes so much from knock and at best trades with it, though usually moon is in the driver seat as it can just pivot on the dbond while simultaneously preventing pech's own pivoting and does not care about malignant as mg prevents poison damage. Rmoon can always just shut down recovery options against it by slotting in taunt, which isn't too big of an ask as 99% of the time its clicking knock or uturn anyway. The best way of shutting down moon is forcing a burn on it via flame body/wisp, with the former being somewhat difficult to slot in on balance teams and the ladder prob being the best way tbh. Due to not being able to check this mon longterm defensively, it really becomes a game of how you can out offense the moon and apply your own pressure faster. Moon is in no small part one of the key reasons for the fast pace meta we have right now, and it knocking and pivoting allows for even faster threats to come in easier than ever.

So moon is an excellent stat ball of a mon that can provide simultaneously offensive pressure, defensive pressure, the ability to break, clean, and can even lure mons in with ability or movepool. However, its most important aspect, and the thing that I think makes moon truly insidious, is the fact that is by far and away the best enabler in the tier. Every strong mon benefits immensely from moon being able to knock their checks and pivot them in so freely. The closest mon that fits moons role is meow, and despite being faster and providing stab knock/pivot, is actually balanced by its typing, bulk, and decreased power level. Meow only feels anti-meta atp for its ability to punish the tusk/water regen/rmoon cores, but thuds so hard into corv/pech and offers no defensively utility it feels too honest in comparison to moon (you can run mixed lo adapt, but like that loses 10% every turn and has no longevity, one of the biggest draws of rmoon). Sure there will always be fast knock pivot mons in the tier, but moon is literally the only mon do it so well and with such flexibility. You would either need a scarfer, a mediocre speed tier mon (350-3 is what ur looking at with B+-C ranked mons, and the ogers running knock uturn would be an especially bad set), or the more honest meow to replicate what moon does, but these all have drawbacks that moon does not. First it felt like rmoon + wake was the broken combo, now it feels like rmoon + dnite is the broken combo, and if dnite is banned it will be rmoon + whatever is the next broken offensive combo. How long before every partner it has is banned before we realize that the enabler is simultaneously also the issue.

I think looking at this mon is important because it balances out what a knock pivot mon should be in this tier. It can either be a slow defensive pivot that deals reduced damage, or is a fast glass cannon that deals large amounts of damage, not both. I also believe it would help alleviate some pressures breakers put on the tier: as they would not have nearly as free of an entry point without moon, would be easier for teams to hold onto their items since moon threatens so many things with its knock, and moon wouldn't be breaking teams itself before the other breakers/cleaners come in.

At the very least I will say I am consistent, I have brought up all 4 mons of chien, boulder, dnite, and rmoon for the past 4 months (chien for longer) as either being being the cream of the crop or too much for the meta. I do think I have talked about these mons long enough and really want to see some type of action on the physical side, as special breakers have really felt like a non-issue especially after wakes ban. I will also reiterate I think looking at the physical side will help on the special as you won't need to dedicate 2-3 slots to 'beat' just a small portion of physical mons. I don't really think 2ac is the solution to the meta issue right now, as it doesn't really address the fact that there are too many threats, but am open to the idea of trying it in conjunction with banning/banning mons and then seeing if 2ac is still worth. I don't really think it would take that many bans to see a SAC meta work as well, and with less threats in the meta moon would prob feel less annoying.

I'm meant to be doing AAA reviews... cat forgive me... But as I was talking about this and responding to this in the council I feel I should also post my own views on Roaring Moon in a more general sense. To summarise, while I can acknowledge Roaring Moon as strong and extremely useful it is not broken. It has very common checks in the short-medium term and I do not believe its removal would not reduce by a significant degree the pressure exerted in the builder that many other extremely strong threats that are a large contributing factor to the main complaint with this I've heard, that being wanting less pressure and more freedom in the builder and the blazing pace the meta finds itself at.

But let me elaborate further. Roaring Moon is 100% definitively not traditionally broken. Let me get this out of the way firstly, it has a very long list of common checks that work just fine for the majority of teams, Fluffy/Intim Corv, Tusk (who alone who should be on nearly every team given they are some of the few viable removers we have), Regen Ting-Lu, our various Fighting-types, even Pecha and Mandibuzz in the short-term. Pretty fast, but not insanely fast. Pretty strong but it's not a Bax or a Iron Valiant (especially when a type-weak mon can check it at times!). Thus, if we want to remove Roaring Moon it's not really because it's alone broken (like Bax and Iron Valiant) but because it is potentially unhealthy and contributing to a problem which Betticus alludes to in his reasoning.

Now it is no secret that there have been more than a few people that have found issue with the current meta. While there always are, the amount I have heard personally from discussion is fairly substantial. However, of course, this is my own subjective personal experience and certainly not a true indication of what people think of the meta and of that will need to be discerned through a broad survey that can capture the more satisfied and therefore less vocal people within the community. But, going off this personal experience, (take this with a large grain of salt) the main problem I have found people had with the meta comes down to wanting more "freedom" when building that branches out and originates from the offensive tone of the meta, particularly in their defensive options.

Right now it quite apparently clear we have a fairly centralised metagame. I am not going to fetch statistics because I don't really have the time (yet I'm also writing this...) but if you have watched the games recently as I have for these reviews or have built more than a few teams for any competitive purpose I think it is fairly apparent, even to those who do like the meta as current. I will say that this is not necessarily a bad thing per se
but I also do not want to get into that side of things just yet as I'm just leading this all for RMoon. This centralisation in our picks... RMoon, the Regen Waters, Corv, Tusk, Pecha... a lot of structures just feel very constrained. A lot of people seem to end up look at their teams and just end up recycling a lot of particularly their defensie cores naturally. Part of this is just the poor hand that G9 has played us with movepool distribution (like removal distribution) and the dex, of which we must just live with. But a large part of this is the large offensive pressure that is present within the meta.

There are a lot of strong and pressing progress makers in our 1AC meta. Deoxys-Speed, Dragonite, all the Ogerpon-formes, Latios, Ceruledge, Gholdengo, Chien-Pao, Zamazenta and so on and so hence forth. I don't think it's controversial to say that the variety in our offensive options vastly outweigh our current defensive options, though in general they always will due to their nature but it certainly is quite notable. With so many offensive options, it becomes very difficult to properly check a lot, even to a faulty "outplayable" degree. Further it is quite easy to wear down our defensive options for our offensive options to blow past. Roaring Moon is certainly one culprit here but I do not believe removing it would remove this aspect at all. Knock is on everything, the best absorbers being our Regen but also the worst given a lack of an AV is a very bad idea and our best switch-ins and our hazard removers are limited and highly exploitable by a decent player and team while being vastly outweighed by setters. Taunt Tusk being a notable nightmarish set that can turn Corv into fodder and spread an immense ton of chip.

This very great difficulty in truly maintaining defensive integrity for a decent amount of time with the plethora of offensive options that exist as well as it being enabled extremely well by our other tools to chip them down and considering everything else you need to fit into your own teams it has led to a large decline in any bulkier style and faster pace offense has dominated the meta. The best mons will always be centralising but especially so when choosing other options can lead to being so easily punished with 1AC. Though picks outside the norm still certainly occur don't get me wrong, there still seems to be a sentiment of such a great pressure when putting together each slot. Roaring Moon's value comes from not only its consistency but also its insane role compression with its defensive utility and speed which is absolutely vital in these circumstances.

Removing Roaring Moon however does not appear to help in any of these regards. While you can say it "enables" to the best degree many of the obnoxious breakers within the tier, it is most certainly not the only enabler, and it still remains easy for even many of our defensive options to spread this chip to make it easy for our breakers to smash through. It's not like there are other strong offensive pivots would can consistently chip down or give opportunity either, Meow, Azelf, TrickScarf Gholdengo and others all exist and can replicate putting pressure on these defensive slots. Sure it may be a bit harder to build around their offensive cores without Roaring Moons great compression but the tools in their defensive slots still exert tons of pressure and the breakers that are still enabled are still fairly easily enabled. I cannot imagine it changing my defensive cores much at all apart from the absence of RMoon. Wow Dragonite is still a pain. Wow Electrics are still strong. Wow I still lose to Deoxys-Speed.

Even removing the offensive output of Roaring Moon does not help much because our common options already checked it pretty well and we still have many other strong Dark-types like Kingambit, Chien-Pao, Meowscarada that can easily exert similar offensive pressure, if not even greater direct pressure. Even many of the more balanced cores would be substantially hurt without Roaring Moon's amazing defensive compression. I just don't see how removing Roaring Moon tangibly could help solve this perceived issue of such constraint in our builder if not some vague notion "being less enabled" yet the broken mons being enabled are still there and we still have an insane amount of easy chip that our single Regen and limited removal cannot keep up with. I would far prefer targeting more directly offensively strong mons like Dragonite and Deoxys-Speed as well as the overarching measures such as 2AC and Ice Scales but for now, I won't get into that.

Hopefully this makes sense, this has been very rambly and I am quite sleepy... I just do not think removing RMoon truly helps our percieved issue of constraint and pressure in this offensive and easy to chip meta and we have far more direct options to pursue and it certainly is not traditionally broken.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Punk Rock Primarina seems to be a nice counter for Galvanize Kommo-o as it gets 3HKOd with the help of Assault Vest, Since it learns Sparkling Aria, Alluring Voice and Psychic Noise, they all get boosted by Punk Rock.

 

[Greybaum]

How to fix AAA: The Greybaum Proposal

OMPL and OMFL are going on right now, so a lot of cowardly people are understandably quiet with regards to how they feel about the meta. On the other hand, a significant number of people who don't have this restriction have been very vocal on their dissatisfaction with the tier, with Isaiah in particular quitting the tier already - a pretty big sign of how things have changed considering he was the best builder in the tier just a few months ago in my unhumble opinion. To make matters worse, a lot of the people who are unhappy about the meta are unable to agree on why, and on what should be done about it. A quick search in Discord shows that in the past month alone there have been calls to ban Deoxys-S, Dragonite, Roaring Moon, Volcarona, Chien-Pao, Manaphy, Zamazenta-H, and likely more I've missed.

The most obvious solution is to do what the people want and ban either Deoxys-S or Dragonite to ease up teambuilding. This is an understandable take to have; they're undeniably the scariest threats to handle in the game right now. But I think a ban on either of these Pokemon is misguided.
In theory both of these Pokemon have plenty of solid answers - Dragonite for example has no way to get past Unaware Scream Tail, a Pokemon that was arguably top 3 in the tier a long time ago, nor can it get through Deoxys-D or Cresselia. It's held back quite a bit by older Intimidate cycling defensive cores, and it has no way to meaningfully hurt Earth Eater Garganacl without giving up a vital moveslot for presently-unseen tech like Low Kick.

But all of this is to say yeah, Dragonite is busted right now, but it's not because it doesn't have answers, it's because its answers can't feasibly be run because of how hyper-aggressive our meta is right now. I don't think anything exemplifies this more than Ceruledge, a Pokemon that has people running Well-Baked Body on itemless Pecharunt and Gholdengo because there's really nothing else that switches into it. You cannot afford fatter structures that underspeed Ceruledge because it's going to pick up a kill every time it's in, and even a single mon like the aforementioned Unaware Scream Tail can be too much of a liability when you're faced with the possibility of running into that guy. So... ban Ceruledge instead? No, that's not enough.

Step 0: wait until OMPL is over. The meta may not be fun for everyone, but it's fairly competitive, and more than that a big shake-up is going to be necessary for any significant change to take place which isn't ideal for a tournament scenario.

As soon as OMPL is nearing completion, run a survey/poll. Not a suspect, just a simple yes/no to 2AC. I think it's evident to most people that this isn't about what's healthier, as AAA has proven to operate just fine under both 1AC and 2AC now, but rather it's about how 1AC lends itself to significantly more offensive structures while 2AC promotes the slower winpaths we saw last gen. Running a suspect is, to me, a pointless endeavour. Frankly I'm also biased because laddering isn't fun and I think getting reqs is more about persistence/waiting until you get an early streak (i.e. avoid being obliterated by luck) rather than testing skill or knowledge of the tier.

If 2AC wins, run it. Implement it immediately so we can get to tiering because there's only so much time left for this generation. Conversely, if 1AC wins, blacklist the topic for the rest of the gen. We've had so many discussions that end in "well it's a possibility but nobody's pushing that hard for it right now" and I think something with finality is overdue here.

If 1AC wins, my next proposal is the following: run a suspect on Sword of Ruin and Adaptability.
The reasoning is simple; the boosts these abilities provide to physical breakers is absurd, and while it's hard to measure how much of a power boost is 'too much' I think scrolling down the (admittedly outdated) VR paints a pretty harsh picture.
Chien-Pao, Zamazenta, Ceruledge, Ogerpon-H, Ogerpon-W, Meowscarada, Terrakion. Outside of a few very meaningful exceptions (e.g. Dragonite needs Aerilate, Iron Boulder prefers Sharpness) the overwhelming majority of the physical attackers in the tier use Sword Of Ruin as their primary ability, or run Adaptability as a surrogate SOR. Even the ones that don't (Great Tusk, Slither Wing) certainly have it as an extremely strong fringe option, in both cases the second best ability CB can run. Banning SoR and Adaptability would be a huge step down for a large number of Pokemon in the tier, and would open up defensive play far more than anything else possibly could.

But what about Tough Claws?
Here's the thing: everything boosted by Tough Claws is also walled by Fluffy, and just like Fluffy it's held back by its far more limited application. A significant number of the Pokemon on my list realistically can't run it and instead need to fall back on alternatives that only boost one STAB instead, or focus more on longevity or defensive utility. Ceruledge loses power on Poltergeist. Chien-Pao either drops Icicle Crash for Ice Spinner or swaps to less egrigious sets like Magic Guard, and either way it's significantly easier to handle defensively. Maybe we'll still need to ban things afterwards, but I wager balance would become significantly easier to build without having to give up on some matchups entirely.

Give it some thought.

 

[Hera]

If 1AC wins, my next proposal is the following: run a suspect on Sword of Ruin and Adaptability.
The reasoning is simple; the boosts these abilities provide to physical breakers is absurd, and while it's hard to measure how much of a power boost is 'too much' I think scrolling down the (admittedly outdated) VR paints a pretty harsh picture.
Chien-Pao, Zamazenta, Ceruledge, Ogerpon-H, Ogerpon-W, Meowscarada, Terrakion. Outside of a few very meaningful exceptions (e.g. Dragonite needs Aerilate, Iron Boulder prefers Sharpness) the overwhelming majority of the physical attackers in the tier use Sword Of Ruin as their primary ability, or run Adaptability as a surrogate SOR. Even the ones that don't (Great Tusk, Slither Wing) certainly have it as an extremely strong fringe option, in both cases the second best ability CB can run. Banning SoR and Adaptability would be a huge step down for a large number of Pokemon in the tier, and would open up defensive play far more than anything else possibly could.

i went over how i think this is silly more in-depth on discord, but the bottom line for me is idt a ban on these abilities if 2ac isn't implemented would practically change all that much. top breakers like moon and zama can simply switch to tc and still get the boost on all moves except some coverage options, other breakers like the ogers and boulder can run their other stab-boosting abilities, and even something like cerul that loves both sor and adapt always has desoland to fall back on. the only mon listed here i think would be genuinely gutted is pao, which is a fraud and has been a fraud for over a year now, and this is at the cost of many, many mons, some of them not even physical attackers, having their viability ruined (also i guess you can go use intrepid sword too, it might not be good now but in a 1ac tier without your best damage amp options who knows what can happen?). idt the cost of banning these abilities would be worth it honestly.

as for my own opinions, i'm in support of a survey post-ompl but i also generally dislike that people are just throwing random options out there cause they don't like the tier's current state. i get why people are doing it but i think that just makes it harder to tier. personally i do agree that building is a bit stale rn with all the teams we're seeing in ompl but i think we've just reached a stable state in the meta. it's not like (good) deviations from the standard stuff are actively punished, and i also don't think that more offensive metas like the one we're seeing rn are inherently bad. i value player skill more than building skill, and from what i'm seeing and experiencing, the better player almost always wins, so i don't see a reason to mess with the tier just cause we have a couple of centralizing top dogs. on top of this, a lot of the proposals i'm seeing are deadset on reshaping the tier and idt that's a good idea. even if there is a big enough problem that we need to tier stuff (which i don't agree with ftr), we have a good enough base to work with that we shouldn't have to ban moon + zama + dnite + deos + tusk + volcarona + light clay and free 2ac to "fix" the tier, as i feel like that approach would just cause more problems than it would solve. i might be persuaded to take action on dnite but even then i can count the amount of times it's actually done anything in-game on one hand. but yeah, i think the best course of action is to simply wait till ompl ends, run a survey (that's more than just a yes/no on 2ac, i would love to see detailed opinions on mons and if the banheavy sentiment i'm seeing is only a vocal minority), and go from there.

 

[Greybaum]

top breakers like moon and zama can simply switch to tc and still get the boost on all moves except some coverage options, other breakers like the ogers and boulder can run their other stab-boosting abilities, and even something like cerul that loves both sor and adapt always has desoland to fall back on.

I feel like there's a misunderstanding here, because that's absolutely the point. If I wanted to "gut" those Pokémon I'd be suggesting we ban them. I don't want to do that. I want to remove what is unquestionably the best ability for physical attackers to lower damage output across the board and alleviate stress on defensive cores. Removing SOR from Ceruledge doesn't mean it's not a good breaker, but it means AV Manaphy can scout it without being OHKOd by Poltergeist. Meowscarada will still be a strong cleaner, but by giving up Adaptability/SOR to run Sniper it loses a lot of its breaking opportunities - off the top of my head it can't kill offensive Zapdos from full with Knock Off anymore. Going from "I have four absurdly strong attacks" to "I have one absurdly strong attack and three pretty good attacks" is a HUGE change. Every Pokemon you listed is either walled by Fluffy - which is significantly better when your counterplay to non-contact attackers isn't "call them a fraud and hope they don't get brought" - or has reduced damage on one of their primary attacking options.

This is at the cost of many, many mons, some of them not even special attackers, having their viability ruined

Name them. Hadron Engine is a near-perfect replacement for the four special attackers currently listed on the VR with Adaptability, and every physical attacker with Adaptability/SOR listed on the VR would still be perfectly functional with the ability removed.

 

[Hera]

thinking about it a bit more, i think my opposition to this extremely hypothetical change that will probably not happen considering i hear lots of support for 2ac stems mostly from that i dislike huge and unnecessary changes like this, especially when we currently have a solid base of a meta to work with. does it solve some problems? maybe, but by doing that you're fundamentally changing the identity of the tier forever. an adapt + sor ban following a lack of support for 2ac might have strong short-term benefits but long-term i would be worried about how this influences future tiering decisions in this gen and beyond, considering this would cover such a wide range of mons. if you believe this would be necessary or that i'm overstating how bad it would really be, then yeah that's fine, but personally i think that we would really need to make sure that not only that the tier is in such a dire need of an overhaul, but also that "yes, this is the right option" before proceeding, although again this is unlikely to even come into consideration in the first place. i hope we can just keep cool heads about this and not propose any drastic measures due to a lack of satisfaction, it's hard to go back if we end up doing something big and the meta is worse off for it.

 

[Atha]

Some Teams


This has been my main laddering team recently. Has some bad matchups like Meow and Electrode-h and struggles against HO but Ghold and Deo make it possible to outplay most of the time. It's supposed to win on the special side but Rmoon can do its thing sometimes.


Screens with some sets I find cool like WP Taunt Rmoon, Steam Engine Mana, Glove Hands, Throat Spray Stail.


Boots spam stackhazard balance that aims to win on the physical side with Rmoon spamming Knock and Zama digging holes. MG Deo-d is an interesting set, with Pain Split healing a lot because of its low base HP. Scream Tail can be annoying.


Mana Rmoon Stail team with Azelf speed control. Probably the most normal team here and that's saying a lot. Explosion is for Volcarona.


Cobalion team.


Extender Shocks + Surge Surfer Ghold + LO Dnite. Pretty cool team imo. Dnite set is flexible just make sure it doesn't lose to VA Corv.


And Thoughts

Seems to be an unpopular opinion but I think the meta's pretty good rn. It's definitely competitive, not too matchup oriented (better than ever in AAA as far as I can remember), and while it's somewhat centralized there's still very reasonable room for creativity. None of the top mons are particularly unhealthy to play against ( before OMPL I would've said Manaphy was a nuisance but the meta has adapted and now people exploit the 0 Spd sets on the special side, and the faster pace of the meta means it clicks less / Rmoon isn't broken short term or mid term and while it's very strong long term fat teams have access to Fluffy which is broken against anything that has to make contact so it's a skill issue / The most borderline mon in the meta but teams have adapted to its presence. I have my eyes on him rn / None of these pose any competitiveness problems). So the question I would ask is what justifies any of the big changes that have been proposed ? Especially when these changes all have their own drawbacks. 2AC/NAC (while imo the best option if we were to make a big change) makes games longer, with a much larger proportion of 0-impact decisions and overall more obnoxious to play, with the omnipresence of Regen potentially posing competitive issues in terms of matchup prevalence. Other options like banning a lot of mons or multiple abilities are less satisfactory tiering-wise.

 

[Gambit]

Wanted to post my thoughts on the meta since its been a while:

- It's definitely the best mon in the tier right now without a doubt, as it just kinda clicks Knock and U-turns everytime it switches in while never being punished by Stealth Rock or Rocky Helmet. I've heard some people say that this mon is banworthy, but I disagree with that, since Corv and Skarm can handle it pretty easily. Fluffy / EE Tusk also handles it somewhat well in the short/midterm, though Fluffy Tusk can struggle with Earthquake variants longterm, while Knock Off + U-turn chips away at EE Tusk overtime. Scrappy Tusk also struggles with getting Lefties knocked turn one (assuming you lead RMoon) and getting chipped down by EQ / Knock + U-turn. Taunt variants can certainly be annoying for Corv and Skarm, especially in combination with Stealth Rock being up, but it usually isn't that difficult to find an opening to click Roost if you play well. I've also been seeing a rise in RegenVest, though I'm not that big of a fan.

- Certainly the second best mon in the tier. Personally, I like Fluffy Tusk + Phys Def Mana / WBB Skarm or EE Tusk + Fluffy Skarm, but I've also been having fun with Regen Tusk to make RMoon suffer. Solid mon overall, though the lack of longevity is killer versus RMoon.

- While Scald is really annoying to switch into, Manaphy does struggle defensively right now, mainly because of the rising popularity of Zapdos and Sandy Shocks. Personally, I just run VA Corv or EE Tusk + Lightning Rod phys def Ghold to beat these mons. I also am not a fan of phys def Manaphy, cause if it gets knocked, it kinda just loses to Ghold. And it's also just inevitable that your gonna get knocked with RMoon being on the majority of balance teams right now.

- The main reason this mon is doing good right now is because phys def Manaphy is everywhere. I think Ghold will fall in usage when more people begin to realize spdef Manaphy is just better, or when Swampert will become more common. Currently though, Gholdengo is really good. While Scarf is certainly Ghold's best set right now, I'm a huge fan of Immunity Ability Nasty Plot phys def Ghold.

- Pls ban this mon. Dragonite has very few checks (Zapdos, WBB Skarm, and phys def Mana) and can only reliably be revenge killed by Iron Boulder or PsySurge Deo-S or Azelf (Ig Ghold too if it can secure the OHKO with Make It Rain. ESpeed, EQ, and Flamethrower is enough to hit almost the entire tier, while DDance sets are also really good at just sweeping entire times. Also, ESpeed 2HKOes most offensive mons (Scream Tail, Roaring Moon, Primarina) while straight up KOing Chien-Pao after SR, one layer of Spikes, or Rocky Helmet.

- I understand why people want to ban this mon, but I don't think its banworthy. PsySurge just ends up having to take too much chip from LO + Stealth Rock while also struggling to take down Swampert and spdef Manaphy even after they've been knocked cause Deo-S just doesn't deal enough damage, and I haven't even mentioned soft checks like Scream Tail or Gholdengo yet. SFLO sets also just can't hit everything. For example, without Shadow Ball you lose to Ghold and STail, without Focus Blast you lose to Heatran and Kingambit, or without Energy Ball you lose to Swampert and spdef Manaphy. Protean is also good, but it poses the same problems with SFLO since you can't hit everything and PsySurge since the LO chip hurts significantly overtime.

- Its no surprise this mon is good right now. Insane bulk, Malignant Chain being able to poison everything, Parting Shot being a really good move, and the greatest move of all time, Destiny Bond. It's literally a get out of jail free card. Struggling versus Chien-Pao? Your going down with me. Deo-S? Say goodbye to you too. Personally, I like pairing Pecha with Intimidate Corv to cover for Roaring Moon, Iron Boulder, and Chien-Pao, while Pecharunt can cover for Zamazenta and Iron Hands.

- It's certainly annoying to deal with without help from Corviknight or Skarmory, but I don't think its overwhelming, as its easily revenge killed by the likes of Gholdengo, Scarf RMoon, or Zamazenta. Imo Swords Dance is better than CB, cause CB can be countered by just switching around.

- It's annoying of course, but by all means I don't think its banworthy. HO sure is overpowered, but I don't think Volcarona is the problem. Volcarona still struggles with Stealth Rock, Zapdos, WBB Skarm, Hisuian Goodra, Manaphy, and Swampert (since it lives Giga Drain at +1 and can deal significant damage with Earthquake or Flip Turn). I understand the hatred for Volcarona, but as I said, I don't thinks it's the problem.

- Checked by phys def Manaphy, Intimidate Corv, Regen Primarina, and spdef Mana + fluffy Tusk / Corv combinations, and it takes hefty SR damage. Not that big of a deal imo. It can be annoying when SR is up on the opposing side, but by all means it is not overwhelming.

The meta overall - It's honestly really fun and competitive. The only thing that should be banned is Dnite though, but I'm happy to wait till OMPL ends.

2AC - Nah. We don't need to make such a significant change when I don't think it would even improve the meta barely, if at all. As I said, the meta is fine.

There's a few more things I could've probably written about, but I'm tired, so I'm ending it here.

 

[Kinetic]

​

It's no secret that Roaring Moon is one of, if not, the best mons in the tier. On paper, it has a decent amount of switch-ins like Great Tusk, Corviknight, Skarmory, and Primarina, and you'd be right in thinking that they can switch into Roaring Moon and beat it short-term. In spite of this, I believe that Roaring Moon is broken. Yes, it has several common defensive answers, but its powerful STAB Knock Offs from a 139 Attack stat and 119 Speed stat easily force switches from offensive mons into these defensive mons, and its ability to capitalize off these switches to bring in and enable one of the many powerful offensive threats is why I think Roaring Moon should be banned. Knock Off is able to easily make progress against defensive mons like Corviknight and Great Tusk, and a U-turn on a forced switch or after knocking something can easily bring in either an offensive teammate that can force even more progress or a defensive teammate that can generate even more momentum thanks to Roaring Moon. Roaring Moon's high natural special bulk and good defensive typing additionally allows it more switch-in opportunities to pivot its teammates in, something many other offensive pivots lack. Some may argue that this defensive utility is good for the tier, as it helps it switch into threats like Ceruledge and Sandy Shocks and keep them in check. However, I disagree with this. Part of the reason mons like Dragonite, Deoxys-Speed, Chien-Pao, and Ceruledge are so strong and contentious are due to Roaring Moon being able to pivot them in so easily thanks to its defensive utility in my opinion. While these threats are very strong in their own right, many of them are quite frail, necessitating a pivot to safely bring them in, and Roaring Moon excels at this unlike any other mon. Magic Guard sets have great longevity, being able to switch into mons like Pecharunt, Heatran, and Iron Moth to force progress with Knock Off, grant a free switch to a teammate with U-turn, or Roost to force the same situation again. Taunt can even be run to deny Corviknight from healing or removing hazards, further enabling teammates like Chien-Pao. Choice Scarf lets it force switches against or just straight up KO many faster offensive mons that are no longer faster than it, while Choice Band punishes teams that use mons like RegenVest Manaphy and offensive Great Tusk to switch in, especially with Outrage. RegenVest provides even more defensive utility to more comfortably switch into mons like Gholdengo, Deoxys-Speed, and Ceruledge while still being able to force progress and switches with Knock Off and U-turn. No other offensive mon is able to force progress and enable its teammates like Roaring Moon can; Meowscarada is the closest one, but it lacks any defensive utlity, making getting it and its teammates in much harder, and doesn't have nearly as powerful Knock Offs. Defensive pivots like Corviknight, Swampert, and Manaphy just don't have the offensive pressure that Roaring Moon has that forces so many switches.

Some people might be thinking that if these offensive threats that Roaring Moon enables are so strong, then said offensive threats should be banned. However, I think that these threats are able to exert so much pressure in game because of Roaring Moon being able to pivot them in so easily. It's not impossible that mons like Dragonite and Deoxys-Speed could be too much for the tier even without Roaring Moon enabling them, but it being able to knock their switch-in's items off them and easily pivot them in contributes a lot to their contentious position in the tier. Many people are unable to agree on which mons are broken out of threats like Ceruledge, Chien-Pao, Iron Boulder, Volcarona, Dragonite, Deoxys-Speed, Zamazenta, and several other mons, and I think removing their best enabler would be a better step for getting the tier into a better position and potentially removing some of the divisiveness about what action should be taken. I also wanted to mention that I don't think 2AC or Ice Scales would help the tier too much, as neither really solves the problem of there being too many powerful (physical) threats. I think that a Roaring Moon ban would be best for the tier and to help solve the problem of the large amount of threats.

 

[LordBox]

​

It's no secret that Roaring Moon is one of, if not, the best mons in the tier. On paper, it has a decent amount of switch-ins like Great Tusk, Corviknight, Skarmory, and Primarina, and you'd be right in thinking that they can switch into Roaring Moon and beat it short-term. In spite of this, I believe that Roaring Moon is broken. Yes, it has several common defensive answers, but its powerful STAB Knock Offs from a 139 Attack stat and 119 Speed stat easily force switches from offensive mons into these defensive mons, and its ability to capitalize off these switches to bring in and enable one of the many powerful offensive threats is why I think Roaring Moon should be banned. Knock Off is able to easily make progress against defensive mons like Corviknight and Great Tusk, and a U-turn on a forced switch or after knocking something can easily bring in either an offensive teammate that can force even more progress or a defensive teammate that can generate even more momentum thanks to Roaring Moon. Roaring Moon's high natural special bulk and good defensive typing additionally allows it more switch-in opportunities to pivot its teammates in, something many other offensive pivots lack. Some may argue that this defensive utility is good for the tier, as it helps it switch into threats like Ceruledge and Sandy Shocks and keep them in check. However, I disagree with this. Part of the reason mons like Dragonite, Deoxys-Speed, Chien-Pao, and Ceruledge are so strong and contentious are due to Roaring Moon being able to pivot them in so easily thanks to its defensive utility in my opinion. While these threats are very strong in their own right, many of them are quite frail, necessitating a pivot to safely bring them in, and Roaring Moon excels at this unlike any other mon. Magic Guard sets have great longevity, being able to switch into mons like Pecharunt, Heatran, and Iron Moth to force progress with Knock Off, grant a free switch to a teammate with U-turn, or Roost to force the same situation again. Taunt can even be run to deny Corviknight from healing or removing hazards, further enabling teammates like Chien-Pao. Choice Scarf lets it force switches against or just straight up KO many faster offensive mons that are no longer faster than it, while Choice Band punishes teams that use mons like RegenVest Manaphy and offensive Great Tusk to switch in, especially with Outrage. RegenVest provides even more defensive utility to more comfortably switch into mons like Gholdengo, Deoxys-Speed, and Ceruledge while still being able to force progress and switches with Knock Off and U-turn. No other offensive mon is able to force progress and enable its teammates like Roaring Moon can; Meowscarada is the closest one, but it lacks any defensive utlity, making getting it and its teammates in much harder, and doesn't have nearly as powerful Knock Offs. Defensive pivots like Corviknight, Swampert, and Manaphy just don't have the offensive pressure that Roaring Moon has that forces so many switches.

Some people might be thinking that if these offensive threats that Roaring Moon enables are so strong, then said offensive threats should be banned. However, I think that these threats are able to exert so much pressure in game because of Roaring Moon being able to pivot them in so easily. It's not impossible that mons like Dragonite and Deoxys-Speed could be too much for the tier even without Roaring Moon enabling them, but it being able to knock their switch-in's items off them and easily pivot them in contributes a lot to their contentious position in the tier. Many people are unable to agree on which mons are broken out of threats like Ceruledge, Chien-Pao, Iron Boulder, Volcarona, Dragonite, Deoxys-Speed, Zamazenta, and several other mons, and I think removing their best enabler would be a better step for getting the tier into a better position and potentially removing some of the divisiveness about what action should be taken. I also wanted to mention that I don't think 2AC or Ice Scales would help the tier too much, as neither really solves the problem of there being too many powerful (physical) threats. I think that a Roaring Moon ban would be best for the tier and to help solve the problem of the large amount of threats.

I don't want to repeat myself again but here I am... I don't think Roaring Moon should be banned from these vague promises of it contributing to a lot of other mons being too strong when a lot of the frustration towards a lot of these mons can be chalked up to the choices they force and pressure they create when building teams which Roaring Moon does not really change much at all. I'm quite doubtful a lot of teams will change much at all with Roaring Moon gone given a lot of its checks are extremely common for many reasons apart from Roaring Moon and removing it will not suddenly make other mons less broken either. But lets take a deeper look at some of the mons you mention that removing Roaring Moon would help with.

Ceruledge - Removing Roaring Moon would arguably make Ceruledge even stronger. Ceruledge is a mon that is frustrating for some because outside of some very niche immunities or itemless you're basically stuffed and even then it can bypass them with some support. It is in part contained by the fast pace of the meta and removing Roaring Moon as one of the few offensive checks and fast mon that threatens it out completely could only serve to worsen its effect. It doesn't particularly benefit much from Roaring Moon, if anything, it prefers specially offensive and slow pivots given it doesn't want to come in Great-Tusk.

Deoxys-Speed - Roaring Moon's connection to Deoxys-Speed's strength is pretty weak as a "physical pivot that enables" but realistically any other physical pivot can work as well as the large sleuth of slow pivots we have around. Regardless of Roaring Moon, Deo-S can force out an insane amount of mons with its speed, not caring for the offensive mons Roaring Moon can force out, and its power with a variety of sets that can don a variety of options to dismantle or just straight up blow up checks very easily. I don't see how removing Roaring Moon really significantly changes how obnoxious Deo-S is to check properly outside of sets like Vabs Corv or STail and most teams end up just coping with stuff like... Scarf Roaring Moon or just praying it doesn't have the right coverage.

Dragonite - Dragonite has always been primarily a pain in the ass primarily within the teambuilder. With +2 priority it's hard to "out-offense" outside of some select options and forcing those options is really not fun. It doesn't really care much about Roaring Moon pressuring Corv, it already has many tools to do so and kind of benefits from coming in on Tusk though it already can. It's more than a self-sufficient mon without Roaring Moon and removing it doesn't help the need to carefully dance around it with fragile options like Physdef Mana or Intim Corv cycle or the annoyances of being forced into stuff like defensive Zapdos and Psysurge.

Volcarona - Completely seperate from Roaring Moon. It's just a dumb setup mon that is really fishy and can force some annoying choices in the teambuilder, you have checks or you don't and Roaring Moon plays no part except to help check it with Scarf Sets and not letting it in.

Iron Boulder/Chien-Pao - While probably the closest mons to something that Roaring Moon has contributed to being "broken" given Roaring Moon can pressure Corv and let them both in on Tusk, it should also be paid close attention to the complaints. That is they force a lot of hard choices and cut off a lot of potential builds. Iron Boulder for example isn't really broken, its poor usage and showing even when used is a testament to that. However, its coverage and speed does just pressure and cut off a lot of potential cores without a Corviknight or Gholdengo around (even I've fallen victim to that). They are not really broken themselves, just the pressure they exert within the teambuilder is a bit much when combined with all the other threats.

But let's look at it this way, what is the main issue you want to solve? Well you state it as "the problem of there being too many powerful (physical) threats" but it hardly seems to me removing Roaring Moon helps much at all. Ceruledge will still be a MASSIVE pain in the ass regardless (arguably more-so) and Iron Boulder still demolishes that Corv-less team you concocted while Dragonite will still force your hand into awkward dances or putting a Psysurge/Zapdos on every team. The pressure in the builder doesn't seem to be lightened much at all, the checks you ran for Roaring Moon will always be ran, there are still loads of defensive (all the RegenVests ever) and offensive pivots (Zapdos, Azelf, etc), loads of ways to maintain pressure anyway (like the ever annoying Taunt Tusk) and the broken offensive mons will still blow up your cores which sounds like the main issue at hand? Roaring Moon's really only outstanding trait to me is its ability to Knock and pressure the physical walls somewhat more for other physical breakers to stack upon, which is a bit annoying but it certainly isn't special in this regard given stuff like Taunt Tusk and the poor hazard control methods in general and doesn't really matter in regards to the issues within the builder.

I don't think balance and bulkier styles are completely dead (source: still is a balance spammer), however, balance and bulkier styles have been forced into very difficult choices with the variety of threats they must account for with their very limited options that usually gimps them in practice. To go for any of the neat unique choices or structures is very difficult while offense retains that luxury given its very nature making them a bit more flexible when it comes to dealing with the myriad of dumb offensive mons. I don't think removing one of our few options in regard to our defensive utility is a wise choice, and yes I am aware of the "don't keep broken checks broken" but I don't think Roaring Moon is broken either so lol.

Leading on from this to defend 2AC/Ice Scales, they definitely do help in expanding our options to deal with the myriad we have to face (instead of being crammed into the same 3 mons if you want to run any kind of balance) and especially helps when it comes to Roaring Moon. Roaring Moon's chip with Knock/U-turn is very much negated by an actual physically defensive Regen which is afforded by both proposals. At this point all it can do is pivot which makes it not much worse than a lot of other offensive/defensive pivots. In general, a 2nd Regen allows a lot more niche options to deal with offensive threats flexibility without gimping your defensive structure (wow I can finally viably run RegenScarf again...) especially when it comes to physical threats so I don't how it wouldn't help with aiding the issues with defensive cores recently...

Overall I'm not particularly convinced Roaring Moon would help amend much of the complaints about the monotony or the pressure faced within the builder and you'd need to show me a strong case given RMoon isn't a mon you could consider traditionally broken. Just ban the actually broken mons with a clear impact on the builder what's wrong with that? Or better yet, free up some more options and maybe we'll all be happy, it would be a bit of a shame if we just left 2AC to never be explored when we've had it as precedent for the past 3 generations. But I guess we'll see how it turns out in the upcoming Post-OMPL survey...

 

[LordBox]

>>>>> CLICK FOR POST OMPL TIERING SURVEY <<<<<

It's that time of the year again... With the conclusion of a lot of meta activity in OMPL, the council is looking again for the opinions of the playerbase to guide potential future tiering action!

The survey will be open until 12pm Sunday GMT -7.​

 

[Hera]

the first in what is hopefully a long line of survey posts

competitive question 9. even with all the complaints i've seen surrounding various mons i really do think the better player is gonna win every game, as even poor mus feel outplayable given the right tools. all the mons on this survey require some sort of skill to use, whether it be in-game predicting (deo-s, pao, zama) or positioning (cerul, volc, dnite) and it's difficult to get away with just mindless clicking unless you get a literally unloseable mu. it's clear most complaints about mons are in the builder and not in play, which i still generally see as skillful.

enjoyability question 8. i feel like people overexaggerate the strength of our "brokens" in builder. apart from maybe dnite there is a genuine opportunity cost that mons like deo-s have to accept in builder by running one of its coverage moves, which makes it easier to plan around and play around in game. balance is also a lot more viable than some people think; yeah you're gonna struggle vs fat killers like cerul but it's not like they're on every team, it's just that now you have to accept some mus in builder will be hard to win with balance, which is something idt a lot of players here are used to. there isn't really a major issue i have with the tier, it's all pretty balanced and fun to play and build in.

3. if we were to suspect anything i want it to be this the most. mixed sets are hard to beat consistently and sometimes i feel like if i wasn't running the right corvid immunity or if it was one move different then i'd autolose. at the same time though it feels really managable in game if you aren't using balance, as we can see with wrs, and i find that a strong revenge killer like dnite does help a lot vs fast mons with inconsistent defensive counterplay to keep them in check. it's probably the only mon here i'd say that might be a net negative to the tier but i'm still not completely sold on it.

3. i will admit i was wrong in saying this mon is completely balanced, it does have a similar issue to dnite in that mixed sets are hard to beat, it doesn't have the best offensive counterplay, and sometimes i feel like if it was, say, sball instead of knock i lose, but this issue can be turned on deo-s cause it needs all of its coverage to work, and it does require a decent amount of skill to properly use unlike the button clickers of past. i think its presence, like wake, is controversial but leads to more skillful games and i wouldn't want to take that away from the tier.

5. lol this is like the most balanced top tier ever. you remove this mon and meow replaces it on 80% of teams cause all teams really need are a strong fast pivot with knock. generally healthy interactions and the meta has evolved to punish sor sets with fluffy mons and mglo sets with winning faster.

4. only reason this isn't a 5 is cause crash flinches and crunch drops are actually very stupid and it can steal games away, but most of the time it's a non-issue that never hits the field and is a fraud. it was really good like a year ago and it still seems like people have some ptsd from when it was actually debatably broken, which i can't hold against them cause pao is kinda stupid, but being a linear mon with a rocks weakness really hurts it.

3. i wrote about this a while back and my thoughts haven't changed so i'll just copy-n-paste what i said before.

cerul's impact on the meta has flucuated a lot since beginning of the gen; it's either mid or looks semi-busted, no in-between. this is probably one of those phases where people just aren't respecting cerul in builder enough (me included), and i think we're gonna see that change later on since cerul does have counterplay, it's just that people aren't really using it. this is higher than pao because we've done this same song and dance before and honestly i'm rather tired of cerul continuing to toe the line like this, this is like the 3rd time cerul's been possibly broken. cerul also has more ways around its couterplay between band and sd not revealing themselves until it clicks a move, sclaw for itemless wbb mons (i have done this before in triage meta so yes, it does work), and more niche things like the old wisp sd sets that are amazing stallbreakers. i think if it was suspected i would vote dnb though.

4. feel like i've been the only zama believer in cord, i genuinely think this mon is top 5 and provides so much on every team (speed control, great cleaner, strong stab + coverage options, scrappy idbp is a really funny set) that it's hard to drop currently, with its only real weakness being that you lose to dnite. it's not 5 cause sor boots is kinda stupid at times and can force undesirable 50/50s but good teams can usually stuff it out and make it balanced.

5. in the matches i've seen where screens is brought and volc is there, it either does nothing or trades 1 for 1. there's just too much counterplay between scarf moon, rocks, jolly deo-s, dnite, and needing to have so much shit go its way for it to even be remotely broken. it's a mu fish and it's a pretty decent one but idk we should ban cheese for being, well, cheese, cause even cheese has its place in the meta.

2ac no. idt this really is worth it for the impact it provides. i think we would need like a single elim 2ac tournament and then a 2 week suspect to truly see if 2ac is balanced and the former isn't happening so i don't really support it. adding onto this 2ac is a huge change that can't be easily undone and the ideas i've seen to address this is something like "longer suspect" which doesn't really show 2ac's given how drastically this changes the meta and how literally every team has to be rebuilt to account for 2ac + the meta shifts 2ac will bring. this isn't even including the fact that we have no idea if 2ac will improve the meta, and all this time could be spent just for an even worse meta. if we had more safeguards in place to revert a ban and to test 2ac out further then i'd be down for a suspect, but since we don't i can't really support one.

ice scales yes. unlike before i'm not seeing the downside with reintroducing scales into the meta, even if just for a suspect, considering the power level of the meta is high enough for scales walls to be unbreakable and for scales setup to be overpowered, i think we have enough options to deal with it. some concerns were brought in cord about hands but it's probably fine, and if it isn't then ban hands.

native abilites yes. i still haven't seen a good counterargument to reintroducing them. we ban the broken ones like illusion and moody, this remains "cart consistent" thanks to all mons having a native ability anyway, and it just generally gives us more options, which is almost never a bad thing.

other thoughts qdqc is inherently uncompetitive and should be banned alongside other uncompetitive stuff like magic bounce and king's rock if we wanna be consistent about tiering. also free vern.

 

[Gambit]

guess ill do a survey post too lol

competitiveness - 8 - Overall, the tier is pretty competitive. I think there is some room for improvement, but overall it's a relatively balanced meta. Not much to say here.

enjoyability - 10 - Personally, I've had a lot of fun building random teams to battle with on ladder. Using different defensive cores and expanding my offensive options has really made the meta a lot of fun. Unfortunately, ladder kinda sucks right now lol.

- 2 - Please suspect. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Extreme Speed 2HKOes most offensive mons (Scream Tail, Roaring Moon, Chien-Pao). Mixed Dragonite puts too much offensive pressure on teams not using physically defensive Manaphy or bulky Zapdos, and even those mons can be overwhelmed. Dragon Dance sets also put in the work against teams not using Corviknight or Skarmory as Manaphy can easily be overwhelmed and Pecharunt's Destiny Bond can be bypassed thanks to Extreme Speed. Sure it can be revenge killed by many mons, with Scream Tail, Iron Boulder, and PsySurge Azelf and Deoxys-S coming into mind, but if that's your last resort against Dragonite, then that's kind of an issue. Please suspect this when the survey closes.

- 3 - Ehh, I think it's a reasonable mon overall. Mons like Swampert, Manaphy, Scream Tail, and defensive Gholdengo can somewhat reliably deal with PsySurge, whereas SFLO can be handled reliably by Manaphy, Swampert if lacking Energy Ball, and Heatran if lacking Focus Blast, while Protean can be handled somewhat reliably by Swampert and Manaphy as well as the fact that the LO chip can be really annoying overtime. The speed tier is super restrictive though, as it can't even be revenge killed by Scarf mons like Gholdengo and Sandy Shocks. I'd keep a close eye on it though.

- 5 - I think I said 5 though I might have said 4, I forgot lol. Anyways, this mon is a non-issue. Fluffy Tusk, Corviknight, and Skarmory (even WBB) can all reliably check Roaring Moon. Sure, MGLO is a very strong set, (and the best set of any Pokemon right now), but it's quite balanced imo. Taunt certainly can annoying Corviknight and Skarmory, whereas Earthquake annoys Fluffy Tusk, but it's reliably walled. No action please.

- 5 - I agree with Hera that this mon was much better a while ago, but that was when Fluffy was more commonly used on Corviknight over Intimidate and physically defensive Manaphy wasn't very commonly used either. Nowadays these Pokemon are used more commonly then ever. Stealth Rock is also a nightmare for Chien-Pao. No action.

- 4 - In thought it feels like Ceruledge would be busted considering that Poltergeist kind of just blows up things, but that really doesn't seem to be the case. Roaring Moon can comfortably switch in on Ceruledge's STAB moves and Roost, though it should avoid CC. Phys Def Manaphy also switches in comfortably on everything not Poltergeist. Eject Button Tusk and WBB Skarm also disrupt Ceruledge, preventing Poltergeist from wrecking entire teams. No action.

- 5 - Nah. Fluffy mons like Corviknight, Skarmory, and Tusk can all do pretty well against Zamazenta, with Pecharunt also being a good switch-in while Crunch certainly can be annoying, though it can usually find a way to Recover the damage back. Rocky Helmet is also very good at chipping Zamazenta as well. No action.

- 3 - My thoughts on this mon have changed a bit, but not that much. There all many ways to beat this mon after all. Swampert and Manaphy can Earthquake and Knock Off respectively against sets lacking Giga Drain, whereas Zapdos can Hurricane against sets without Psychic. DBond Pecharunt and ESpeed Dragonite also exist though I shouldn't use Dragonite as an example since I want it banned. No action for now, but I'm keeping my eye on it.

2 AC - Unsure - When I said unsure, I meant more that I don't really care if this happens or not. I do think this will give the metagame more flexibility, but this would result in a significant metagame shift that, personally, I am not a fan of. We'll see what happens though.

Ice Scales - Yes - I think this is a good idea, as this will allow for more flexibility against special attackers like Gholdengo and Deoxys-S, though I think Dragonite is a more significant problem right now, so I think we should start with suspecting Dragonite first. I do think this will overall improve the meta though.

Native Abilities - No - I don't have a good argument for why I don't want native abilities. I just don't want them lol.

Everything else - I think we could look into unbanning mons like Enamorus and Noivern (especially if Ice Scales is freed) and maybe some other mons, though I think there are more important things that can be done.

 

[Codename C.A.T]

fuck it

Competitiveness: 8 - I really don't like the tier right now but to pretend like the better player doesn't win most of the time would just be dishonest.

Enjoyability: 6 - I don't like playing this meta currently. Building feels forced to either autolose to a Dragonite or use the same 3 or 4 mons for every balance, no matter what.

1 - Please just ban this. Extreme Speed is so comically strong for a +2 priority move, you have to slap on PsySurge or Zapdos to even think of checking it on balance, the mixed set can run literally any coverage it wants to remove any "checks" that dare to switch in, and then there's FUCKING Dragon Dance. I despise this mon so much, it is actually unreal.

2 - I've mellowed out on this mon over the course of OMPL, but I do think it still deserves a suspect easily. With stuff like Hadron rising in usage, PsySurge and SFLO being as dangerous as ever, Protean being still REALLY good, and even more optimizations like Low Kick, this mon just does it all and def deserves a suspect in my eyes.

5 - I mean...you could make an argument for a suspect? If you squinted? But like, no. Moon isn't broken, it's just really fucking good. Maybe the DD sets are kinda dumb but that's just down to me building bad teams.

3 - I have mixed opinions on Chien-Pao. On one hand, it's easily the (2nd) most scary mon to play around in the builder, basically just demanding that your Mana be physdef and your Corv be Intim. On the other hand, it's a rocks weak, very difficult to switch in wallbreaker that needs to rely on a move with 90% accuracy. I could go either way, really, though slightly leaning towards the suspect angle.

3 - This pokemon is really bad, but really unhealthy. It basically just does not allow you to build stall or semi-stall without stupid itemless or WBB shenanigans, which is Very Clearly Healthy And Fine For A Pokemon To Do. HOWEVER, this is an offense meta, and an offense meta where Ceruledge fucking sucks. Like, it's so bad into so many teams right now that I don't want to use it basically ever. But it IS definitely one of the most unhealthy things in the meta rn.

5 - What? This mon isn't even that good. Like, it's strong, it's a fast fighting type, but Gholdengo and Pecharunt exist. Zapdos is one of the best mons. Fluffy Corv is still Fluffy Corv. And yeah, it has tools to get around those...with heavy prediction that requires you lock into a non-Close Combat move. Like every other good strong choiced wallbreaker.

4 - I don't have much to say about this mon since I've never played against it, never seen an issue with it personally but it is kinda dumb in concept.

2AC: Interested - Honestly, why not? Worst case scenario we have double regen and ban the things that're broken anyways, which like...shit, I'm down for that, lemme run a Regen Tusk without going broke on SpDef. Would prefer this over Scales.

Ice Scales: Interested - I'm interested but also box 5/7 of the mons on the survey are physical attackers.

Everything else: I can really only see an Enamorus unban. Things like Noivern are just no. Like, we have Dragonite, we don't need a second big dumb stupid broken Flying STAB spammer in this meta.

 

[Sylvi]

Comp: Very
Enjoyable: Very

3
Only set tobe argued unfair is dd dnite, sincednite is very polarazing some thoughts
Some answers to that:

PSurge Deo-S, (Azelf, Latios, Gardevoir, Crown, Ribombee)
Unaware Bulky: Cresselia, Scream Tail, Mandibuzz (Ursaluna Bloodmoon)
Intim + stuff to threaten it with the intim mon
Rocky Helmet which tanks 2 +0 Espeeds or +1 Espeed that can kill back
WBB Corv
IronPress
Offensive Flying Resists e.g. Iron Boulder, Scarf Ghold
Those are a few ways my Team and I came up with to try to counter it

Dnite's existence makes HO hard to play while being able to punish non Spinner Tusks and have some other defensive utility.
Mons is flexible, shoutouts to AAA Communtiy for finding many Ways to play it like twave support, dtail, electric coverage.

You need atleast 1 reliable, ideal 2 lines vs Dnite, usually not getting swept by it unless team is weaker into it
e.g.
line 1 corv wbb u turn into psurge deos
line 2 mana lives +1 espeed, can icebeam combined with wbb corv can 1v1 after draining pp

3
Only Set to be argued unfair is Nasty Plot Tinted, all defensive sets/supportive sets are all fine in addition
All Out Coverage lacks the unfair damage with 95 Base special attack, it is good but without providing details in my opinion not broken
Bias for inventing Nasty Plot Tinted (Spoon NP, Eforce, Pshock, Icebeam)it has on paper no Answers long term, while the standard NP cannot hit regens for the best damage +2 Shock in Terrain OHKOs them all with Ice Beam for dark coverage (remember vs kingambit and pao uhave tinted bonus). This Set needs another PSurge Setter and an offesie Structure so it is hard to get it done in practise.If someone solves those structures deos might be broken with the set otherwise without more context, frail mon that lacks the dmg to sweep on own or clean in regens.

You can play Scarfer for revening, bulkeir Teams.Mon that it cannot touch (ghold and stail were good example before sball was put on deos, without ice beam you have dragons and without knock regens, if fblast unreliable and stilll 2 mon at min live from full).
You need designated plan for deos and same level of prep as for dnite

1/2
Defensive Utility is to much, checks a lot of more "niche mons" like hoopa, sinistcha, poltegeist. Many more are gatekepped by rmoon unless we all sacrifice to play pixi tblast, which tbh was often in my builder Every NP Ghold should have DGleam, Every Mana needs Alluring Voice, Every RMoon needs Bug Buzz. If your special (setup) Attacker doesnt have something for rmoon that mon wont have any impact in the game. While also having a lot of offensive power and forcing you to play a fighting mon on every team basically. DD is often checked by the same Mons the Banded Set is checked, on certain structures is dd rmoon more threatening but won't go in detail.
Suspect would be fair since it is the most meta warping mon you see every game andhas every game an impact and you need atleats 3 lines vs it and sometimes you still cannot break it before it breaks you offensively with knock and friends

, 4
Sometimes autowin,average case it is mid. Requires pivot support, both have 22 sets only SD or Banded. Due to Deoxys Speed in he meta usually have atleast 1 Mon faster than Pao and Pao still reliant on 90% Crash without Band it lacks immediate dmg. Mons that want to check rmoon + an ice resists check pao together. Need good precditions and aggreisve playstyle. Same for cere, ppl can easily play wbb + itemless to completely wall cere and itemless is not terrible since the mon that wants to wall cere also is decent into rmoon usually so the item will be knocked anyway. cere is even slower and revenged often.
Usually 1 line + positioning accordingly is enough for either of them

5
4 Slot Syndrom paired with Abbility Syndrom
Needs CC, Crunch, Stone Edge, Moonblast, Heavy Slam with Protean and Sword of Ruin paired with Life Orb and Banded to be broken
Band gets scouted easily, protean lacks cc dmg and has to sacrifive one covverage move. fair and sqaured mon which is good in the meta but nothing more

5
As the volcarona merchant and me building intensively 2 weeks with it, ou need giga + buzz + psychic on SFLO while heavy support due to rocks.
if you dont have sflo u lack the broken dmg puts you in category with other special attacker. has to fight with swampert, dnite, wbb steels all common rn. 1/10 games u insta win but those become more and more rare.
1 line is enough for you to have in ur team often gifted for free for playing good mons
2AC
1 Regen slot is enough

Ice Scales
More Broken on Setup Mons and toxic addition making rmoon + ice scale the "you cant break me generic special attacker"

Native Abbilities
Stick to Tiering Policy, don't open loop holes

Bonus
Most unexplored Abbility is Tinted Lens and has the most potential from all the stuff I build in OMPL, hope the community can break this abbility

Made tierlist without explanations from my experience playing AAA
Ordered up to A- (azelf is a- and ogerpon-w is b; forgot to add them)

I linked my ompl stuff in a pastebin in aaacannel from ompl discord for those curios, feel free to use them

 

[Iynhe]

I'll hop on the post-wagon

competitiveness - 8 - I'd say that I finally start to understand the meta a bit and I don't dislike it.

enjoyability - I already forgot if I voted 8 or 9 LMAO - I'm having fun. That's it.

- 4 - How the heck is mixed working for anyone? I surprised a Corviknight one time, it lost 50% health (more or less) then it never worked again. I only use CB Aerilate because it's the only set that ever worked for me. (Also yes, don't remove the first -but not only- reason I love this tier.)

- 4 - Eh, it's strong, but I feel like every time I can somehow check it enough.

- 4 - yeah, it's annoying and strong and I agree that it helps a bunch of stuff, but it also never felt overwhelming. I use SFLO, it's so fun.

- 4 - yes, it can be annoying, but last time I saw it was when I used it and found it underwhelming, probably 2 months ago.

- 4 - Last time I saw it was even earlier than the last time I saw Chien Pao. If you use Corvi is a pain in the neck, but I didn't have that much trouble as of late.

- 3 - Of all the listed pokemon this is the one I've had the most trouble with. You can say I'm bad, I can accept the truth XD

- 4 - Again, strong, but last time I saw it was with Ceruledge LMAO. SFLO is strong, though.

2 AC - F No - As much as I'd love to have only one team to try my SFLO mons AND Double regen would make defensive core a bit better, I hate fighting against double regen more than I hate trying new defensive stuff or want to build only one team to try SFLO stuff.

Ice Scales - NO - I'd rather have to fight against double regen than having AGAIN this crap in the tier. It was impossible to break.

Native Abilities - No - I don't have a good argument for why I don't want native abilities. I just don't want them lol. (Precisely this).

Everything else - Nothing to say, tbh.

 

[DeepFriedMagikarp]

(Ordered within -> tiers) I liked the tierlist idea. Probably missed some stuff iunnno. This is my tryhard meta-y analysis version of tierlist

EDIT: put wellspring next to cornerstone. Helectrode > firepon as well

Meta is fine but also feels pretty stale/centralized. A lot of builds/directions/styles/archtypes have logical conclusions. A lot of builds are also holding on only by a thin delicate dance. Ban Dragonite btw its superr centralizing to account for
2ac probably fixes this by just forcibly injecting more viable mons/sets and in turn divying up the amount of logical conclusions rn and i dont think it'd be too negative.

 

[Betticus IV]

With OMPL over I thought I would finally respond and give further thoughts about moon. I will say before diving in I still stand-by my above posts; chien/boulder (tho the ladder to a lesser degree now) are unhealthy in the current metagame and moon is a mon that I view as one of the unhealthiest aspects.

But let me elaborate further. Roaring Moon is 100% definitively not traditionally broken. Let me get this out of the way firstly, it has a very long list of common checks that work just fine for the majority of teams, Fluffy/Intim Corv, Tusk (who alone who should be on nearly every team given they are some of the few viable removers we have), Regen Ting-Lu, our various Fighting-types, even Pecha and Mandibuzz in the short-term. Pretty fast, but not insanely fast. Pretty strong but it's not a Bax or a Iron Valiant (especially when a type-weak mon can check it at times!). Thus, if we want to remove Roaring Moon it's not really because it's alone broken (like Bax and Iron Valiant) but because it is potentially unhealthy and contributing to a problem which Betticus alludes to in his reasoning.

Fluff/intim corv, tusk, lu, pech, mandi, and fighting types is actually a pretty short list of mons that are able to check moon, and if we dive a bit deeper into each of these mons, we see that many are not able to check moon all that well or at all.

Fluff/intim corv is one of the most popular answers but moon has shown a plethora of ways to take both variants down. Firstly, getting the knock on corv is huge, as if it is boots it will now be taking rocks, if its helmet well there goes the passive chip you were going to use on the moon (which is totally negated by mg anyway), and if its lefties now you have no more passive recovery. The damage output that moon does to these variants is nothing, but unfortunately due to the nature of moon it doesn’t need to worry about how much damage it is doing to corv. Moon has already done its job; it got rid of the corv’s item and becomes a way to force the corv in which it can use to freely pivot in whatever it wants. Intim corv isn’t even that good of a check, as you are always rolling the dice on banded lash being used to completely negate the counterplay. Taunt is also easily slotted onto mglo, which can be used to simultaneously stop corv’s recovery and getting rid of hazards, and u-turn damage from the opposing corv can always be roosted off at a later time as moon can use its defensive utility to find an entry point. Most moon variants also lock out other forms of corv, as it may not even be worth to run an item on these since you take nearly 50% from a knock, and then 26-31 itemless, meaning it is very easy for moon to just spam knock against it especially when it is low/chipped. I’ll also lump skarm in this section as it is a metal bird, and while it does have higher defenses, it fits on less structures due to no hazard removal and pivoting, and can still fall victim to the same issues of being worn down with hazards and knock/uturn chip.

Tusk is by far and away the best defensive answer to moon, it resists both knock and uturn, but is most importantly rocks resistant and able to not care about getting taunted bc of spin. However, this mon is only able to check in the short-term due to losing lefties and ¼ of its health being lost to moon’s coverage even when fully defensive. U-turn + rock chip also adds up quite a bit especially when knocked, as a mon taking 11% on rocks and uturn is not an insignificant amount. This can further be compounded with spikes. This doesn’t even take into account that again moon can pivot on the forced tusk switch-in to whatever on its team can beat it, and you get trapped further in a vortex. These calc’s are in reference to tusk’s max hp and def set, and if you want to run a faster/more offensive tusk, you make quite a bit of a trade-off in how well the tusk can switch-in/check the moon (knock does 23-27, dclaw 38-45, eq 31-38, and uturn 11-13). If running regen tusk that comes with its own teambuilding issues and needs a decent amount of support to get off the ground, but these structures are not too common.

While regen Lu is another nice answer to moon, it is pretty niche mon and again suffers from its lefties getting knocked and having its regen nearly negated w uturn doing 25-29 to a max defense variant. Lu doesn’t even really like moon staying in on it, as mglo moon variants can roost off the damage from EQ and just play the odds until they get a low roll to pivot out, or invest just a little in HP to help this issue as well. This doesn’t even delve into the fact that regen lu structures are hard to build/fit in the current meta, and are nowhere near as splashable as other defensive options such as intim corv or defensive tusk.

Pecharunt is not a good answer to moon, and the more I play those interactions the more fraudulent it feels. A great example of how well moon is able to check pech (and lu) with team support can be seen in our finals game. Kinetic is easily able to get a vortex going anytime the pech comes in and always keep intiative by just u-turn spamming. It doesn’t even matter that moon got poisoned as we could regen it off every time. The pech getting knocked was also huge, as it was now taking 12% on every switch-in, forcing recovers more frequently than if it had kept its boots. Another check mentioned (regen Lu) was also on Lana’s team, but with offensive team support in ghold/prim, and hazard removal support in treads/corv, hstack/lu wasn’t really an issue for it that game.

Mandibuzz getting mentioned as a check feels very cope. This mon is rocks weak and takes so much from simply being neutral to uturn. Taking 17-20 from uturn everytime is not insignificant, and if you aren’t magic guard then that is on top of the 25 from rocks every switch-in. In all my games I have never found any variant of mandi hard to beat with moon, and it honestly feels like easy fodder for it.

Various fighting types: The most meta relevant fightings are realistically tusk, zam, hands, cobalion, chesnaught, and slither. Hands is good answer to moon, but if not regen struggles with longevity and being able to find openings especially with tusk, pech, and stail being so prevalent. It also doesn't like getting its item knocked (if not regen) so it finds it sometimes difficult to switch into the moon. Zam also cannot switch into moon for fear of losing its band or lefties, both integral parts of its gameplan, but is able to scare it out if it able to be safely brought in, but again pairing moon with pech you are able to largely solve this problem. Cobalion is an odd mon that is still pretty niche but if you look to my game against spell in seasonal moon is still able to annoy it greatly as I get the read on rocks and am able to do nearly 40% in that one interaction while also getting rid of its potency. Chesnaught largely fits on stall builds and can really only fish against the moon for burns/para’s. You can point to jrdn’s game where the static helped for balance builds but that relied heavily on the static actually proccing, as in some test games if it didn’t moon was able to keep momentum and be quite a nuisance. Due to this he also used grimm as a back-up to try and snipe moons with fake-out. Jrdn is also just an insanely ingenious builder and I don’t see anyone else building like him so 99% of the time ur seeing it on stall builds and that whole playstyle is not doing too hot rn. Slither is incredibly mid in the current meta and has so many things to contend with such as intim/fluff/pech/psysurge/and tusk.

But, going off this personal experience, (take this with a large grain of salt) the main problem I have found people had with the meta comes down to wanting more "freedom" when building that branches out and originates from the offensive tone of the meta, particularly in their defensive options.

I understand/agree with the notion of wanting ‘more freedom’ in the builder, and I think that having freedom in defensive options is one way that this can be done. This is because in the current meta you really can’t afford to fit a defensive mon that only checks/walls one or two things, it needs to be able to be multifaceted in its defensive capabilities, this is actually incredibly limiting as this only leaves very few mons that are able to effectively check all of chien, boulder, zam, ceru, moon, dnite (and other mons but hopefully you get the point). I also think moon is significant in this freedom as a defensive mon without its item is a huge setback for it, and when moon is able to do this with such power, defensive utility, and longevity it creates a limitation in how/what defensive options can be used.

Right now it quite apparently clear we have a fairly centralised metagame. I am not going to fetch statistics because I don't really have the time (yet I'm also writing this...) but if you have watched the games recently as I have for these reviews or have built more than a few teams for any competitive purpose I think it is fairly apparent, even to those who do like the meta as current. I will say that this is not necessarily a bad thing per se
but I also do not want to get into that side of things just yet as I'm just leading this all for RMoon. This centralisation in our picks... RMoon, the Regen Waters, Corv, Tusk, Pecha... a lot of structures just feel very constrained. A lot of people seem to end up look at their teams and just end up recycling a lot of particularly their defensie cores naturally. Part of this is just the poor hand that G9 has played us with movepool distribution (like removal distribution) and the dex, of which we must just live with. But a large part of this is the large offensive pressure that is present within the meta.

Agree

Knock is on everything, the best absorbers being our Regen but also the worst given a lack of an AV is a very bad idea and our best switch-ins and our hazard removers are limited and highly exploitable by a decent player and team while being vastly outweighed by setters. Taunt Tusk being a notable nightmarish set that can turn Corv into fodder and spread an immense ton of chip.

While knock is on quite a bit of offensive threats, of the ones you mention in the same paragraph only deos and the ogers use knock consistently. For deos the only ‘reliable’ regenvest answers are iron treads, moon, to an extent pert depending on coverage. These are still shaky due to taking a knock, if the deos gets its reads right, its coverage, and what ability/item it is. The way of beating deos has shown itself to be getting the reads right, not allowing it opportunities to come in, and use a scarfer to beat it. Ogers have always been tough for defensive mons as their grass coverage alongside whatever mask they are makes what your defensive answer is dynamic, though they can be answered with immunities/hazards/and faster mons. These mons however don’t have STAB 139 atk on the knock, can’t pivot/easily fit it on, or have reliable recovery (ogers running pivot and recovery are suffering). Other breaker mons that have knock are thundy, zelf, gar, zap-g, and meow. These mons however have major drawbacks in using them whether it be their speed tier, defensive capabilities, and lack of recovery options. I heavily disagree that your regen mon is one’s best knock absorber on a team, and unless it’s a phys def regen you should be looking at ways to mitigate losing your AV. Things such as corv, tusk, pech, or your other spdef answer are much better answers to knock depending on the user in front and losing the vest is due to being outplayed or having no other option. Taunt tusk is an issue for corv but can be scouted and played around on the 50/50s, mono-defog on a team is terrible removal unless you are able to shrug off rocks on the field and one can be rightly punished for this. A good example of how to ‘handle’ taunt tusk can be seen in my game against abriel this ssnl. It actually 'loses' to pech instead of winning due to the fact that I get the poison, it’s not doing enough damage, and it can’t recover. This allows for my tusk to easily come in after and clean up as well as remove hazards on my side. These are all issues moon easily circumvents.

The best mons will always be centralising but especially so when choosing other options can lead to being so easily punished with 1AC. Though picks outside the norm still certainly occur don't get me wrong, there still seems to be a sentiment of such a great pressure when putting together each slot. Roaring Moon's value comes from not only its consistency but also its insane role compression with its defensive utility and speed which is absolutely vital in these circumstances.

Agree with most of this, however I don’t think that 1AC is the root cause of this, and moon would still be heavily used in a 2AC meta because it is literally just a giant statball of a mon with a good typing so there is no reason not to use it. Yes, it would be kept more in check with physical regen, but it’s still gonna be doing the same thing it’s doing in a 1ac meta, albeit over a longer game since you would now be able to regen cycle.

Removing Roaring Moon however does not appear to help in any of these regards. While you can say it "enables" to the best degree many of the obnoxious breakers within the tier, it is most certainly not the only enabler, and it still remains easy for even many of our defensive options to spread this chip to make it easy for our breakers to smash through. It's not like there are other strong offensive pivots would can consistently chip down or give opportunity either, Meow, Azelf, TrickScarf Gholdengo and others all exist and can replicate putting pressure on these defensive slots. Sure it may be a bit harder to build around their offensive cores without Roaring Moons great compression but the tools in their defensive slots still exert tons of pressure and the breakers that are still enabled are still fairly easily enabled. I cannot imagine it changing my defensive cores much at all apart from the absence of RMoon. Wow Dragonite is still a pain. Wow Electrics are still strong. Wow I still lose to Deoxys-Speed.

I think this is the part of your argument I disagree with the most, and to say that because moon is not the only enabler in the tier it won’t solve anything if it’s gone makes no sense to me. All the mons that you mention: Meow, zelf, and trick ghold; while all can make progress similar to moon, play in game so completely different and all have drawbacks that moon does not. Meow and zelf suffer from terrible defensive typings and stats, no recovery, hazard chip, and are more likely than not choice locked. If they are not choice locked they lose out on either crucial damage amp or speed boost. Ghold still loses to certain regenvests if it tricks them a scarf and they are max spdef/resist even one of its stabs. It also loses access to its recovery option/ability to trick if it does end up with an AV, and lacks pivoting compared to moon. This all banks on the fact that they trick the regenvest, and if you play around/scout for this you can keep your vest and still be a great ghold answer. Defensive slots do not exert nearly the same power level or pressure that moon does when it comes onto the field, and one can use basically your whole team to answer a knock/pivot from something like pert or mana, but are limited greatly in comparison to what can be used to answer a knock/pivot from moon. Hell, you can even bring an offensive mon in on these pivots to prevent them from bringing in their own offensive mon, but many offensive mons do not have this luxury against moon. Don’t really understand this last part: Wow I still lose to two borderline mons and still lose to electrics because I’m not slotting in pert, desoland, other ground, and/or vabs anywhere. Also, you would probably have more defensive freedom to run things that answer these mons. Vabs corv is a great example, as it really does not like moon and can lead to different cores than the ones currently seen while simultaneously checking all three mentioned. It just isn’t seen nearly as often as the trade-off of beating electrics but losing to moon and other phys mons such as chien and boulder is tough.

Even removing the offensive output of Roaring Moon does not help much because our common options already checked it pretty well and we still have many other strong Dark-types like Kingambit, Chien-Pao, Meowscarada that can easily exert similar offensive pressure, if not even greater direct pressure. Even many of the more balanced cores would be substantially hurt without Roaring Moon's amazing defensive compression. I just don't see how removing Roaring Moon tangibly could help solve this perceived issue of such constraint in our builder if not some vague notion "being less enabled" yet the broken mons being enabled are still there and we still have an insane amount of easy chip that our single Regen and limited removal cannot keep up with.

I also disagree with this point because I have/had already brought up how meow is much different/worse than moon, and gambit/chien just simply do not exert the same type of pressure that moon does. Yes, it is more direct pressure but that is because they are some of the strongest breakers/cleaners if given the right opportunities. However, these mons have been shown to be much harder to build around and are nowhere near as flexible in what teams they fit on/what they can do in a game.

I would far prefer targeting more directly offensively strong mons like Dragonite and Deoxys-Speed as well as the overarching measures such as 2AC and Ice Scales but for now, I won't get into that.

We can target more directly offensive mons while simultaneously talk about/target their best enabler, it doesn’t have to be one or the other.

I will also respond to the kinetic one as me and him had talked ab moon a bit just due to the nature of us being teammates and having to build every week.

I don't want to repeat myself again but here I am... I don't think Roaring Moon should be banned from these vague promises of it contributing to a lot of other mons being too strong when a lot of the frustration towards a lot of these mons can be chalked up to the choices they force and pressure they create when building teams which Roaring Moon does not really change much at all. I'm quite doubtful a lot of teams will change much at all with Roaring Moon gone given a lot of its checks are extremely common for many reasons apart from Roaring Moon and removing it will not suddenly make other mons less broken either. But lets take a deeper look at some of the mons you mention that removing Roaring Moon would help with.

Ceruledge - Removing Roaring Moon would arguably make Ceruledge even stronger. Ceruledge is a mon that is frustrating for some because outside of some very niche immunities or itemless you're basically stuffed and even then it can bypass them with some support. It is in part contained by the fast pace of the meta and removing Roaring Moon as one of the few offensive checks and fast mon that threatens it out completely could only serve to worsen its effect. It doesn't particularly benefit much from Roaring Moon, if anything, it prefers specially offensive and slow pivots given it doesn't want to come in Great-Tusk.

Deoxys-Speed - Roaring Moon's connection to Deoxys-Speed's strength is pretty weak as a "physical pivot that enables" but realistically any other physical pivot can work as well as the large sleuth of slow pivots we have around. Regardless of Roaring Moon, Deo-S can force out an insane amount of mons with its speed, not caring for the offensive mons Roaring Moon can force out, and its power with a variety of sets that can don a variety of options to dismantle or just straight up blow up checks very easily. I don't see how removing Roaring Moon really significantly changes how obnoxious Deo-S is to check properly outside of sets like Vabs Corv or STail and most teams end up just coping with stuff like... Scarf Roaring Moon or just praying it doesn't have the right coverage.

Dragonite - Dragonite has always been primarily a pain in the ass primarily within the teambuilder. With +2 priority it's hard to "out-offense" outside of some select options and forcing those options is really not fun. It doesn't really care much about Roaring Moon pressuring Corv, it already has many tools to do so and kind of benefits from coming in on Tusk though it already can. It's more than a self-sufficient mon without Roaring Moon and removing it doesn't help the need to carefully dance around it with fragile options like Physdef Mana or Intim Corv cycle or the annoyances of being forced into stuff like defensive Zapdos and Psysurge.

Volcarona - Completely seperate from Roaring Moon. It's just a dumb setup mon that is really fishy and can force some annoying choices in the teambuilder, you have checks or you don't and Roaring Moon plays no part except to help check it with Scarf Sets and not letting it in.

Iron Boulder/Chien-Pao - While probably the closest mons to something that Roaring Moon has contributed to being "broken" given Roaring Moon can pressure Corv and let them both in on Tusk, it should also be paid close attention to the complaints. That is they force a lot of hard choices and cut off a lot of potential builds. Iron Boulder for example isn't really broken, its poor usage and showing even when used is a testament to that. However, its coverage and speed does just pressure and cut off a lot of potential cores without a Corviknight or Gholdengo around (even I've fallen victim to that). They are not really broken themselves, just the pressure they exert within the teambuilder is a bit much when combined with all the other threats.

But let's look at it this way, what is the main issue you want to solve? Well you state it as "the problem of there being too many powerful (physical) threats" but it hardly seems to me removing Roaring Moon helps much at all. Ceruledge will still be a MASSIVE pain in the ass regardless (arguably more-so) and Iron Boulder still demolishes that Corv-less team you concocted while Dragonite will still force your hand into awkward dances or putting a Psysurge/Zapdos on every team. The pressure in the builder doesn't seem to be lightened much at all, the checks you ran for Roaring Moon will always be ran, there are still loads of defensive (all the RegenVests ever) and offensive pivots (Zapdos, Azelf, etc), loads of ways to maintain pressure anyway (like the ever annoying Taunt Tusk) and the broken offensive mons will still blow up your cores which sounds like the main issue at hand? Roaring Moon's really only outstanding trait to me is its ability to Knock and pressure the physical walls somewhat more for other physical breakers to stack upon, which is a bit annoying but it certainly isn't special in this regard given stuff like Taunt Tusk and the poor hazard control methods in general and doesn't really matter in regards to the issues within the builder.

I don't think balance and bulkier styles are completely dead (source: still is a balance spammer), however, balance and bulkier styles have been forced into very difficult choices with the variety of threats they must account for with their very limited options that usually gimps them in practice. To go for any of the neat unique choices or structures is very difficult while offense retains that luxury given its very nature making them a bit more flexible when it comes to dealing with the myriad of dumb offensive mons. I don't think removing one of our few options in regard to our defensive utility is a wise choice, and yes I am aware of the "don't keep broken checks broken" but I don't think Roaring Moon is broken either so lol.

Leading on from this to defend 2AC/Ice Scales, they definitely do help in expanding our options to deal with the myriad we have to face (instead of being crammed into the same 3 mons if you want to run any kind of balance) and especially helps when it comes to Roaring Moon. Roaring Moon's chip with Knock/U-turn is very much negated by an actual physically defensive Regen which is afforded by both proposals. At this point all it can do is pivot which makes it not much worse than a lot of other offensive/defensive pivots. In general, a 2nd Regen allows a lot more niche options to deal with offensive threats flexibility without gimping your defensive structure (wow I can finally viably run RegenScarf again...) especially when it comes to physical threats so I don't how it wouldn't help with aiding the issues with defensive cores recently...

Overall I'm not particularly convinced Roaring Moon would help amend much of the complaints about the monotony or the pressure faced within the builder and you'd need to show me a strong case given RMoon isn't a mon you could consider traditionally broken. Just ban the actually broken mons with a clear impact on the builder what's wrong with that? Or better yet, free up some more options and maybe we'll all be happy, it would be a bit of a shame if we just left 2AC to never be explored when we've had it as precedent for the past 3 generations. But I guess we'll see how it turns out in the upcoming Post-OMPL survey...

Ceruledge: This mon has always been borderline due to the nature of the counterplay around it, yes moon being around keeps it in check quite a bit, this mon is actually part of the reason I like regen moon so much, because mglo was kind of a meh check to it. I do think with moon gone it would be much stronger and bar itemless wbb it would probably need to be looked at.

Deoxys-Speed: Having a physical breaker that is fast and able to knock off what deos doesn’t force in is huge for not only deos but the other teammates. If you want to use vabs corv to check deos it becomes much harder due to moon now beating it. Stail also dislikes moon heavily for its ability to KO it with minimal chip/force wishes on knocks/uturns.

Dragonite: Dnite doesn’t particularly need moon to beat its defensive checks, but it greatly appreciates no item on them/chip. Corv without helmet lets you click espeed a little more freely, no lefties means no passive recovery on ddances or ur own roosts. Fluff tusk without lefties/helmet becomes a much worse short/longterm answer to dnite. For zapdos and psysurge, I wonder what mon is able to check/beat/switch into both of these… maybe a strong spdef dark type that is also fast and able to recover off the damage.

Volcarona: This mon is actually checked quite well by scarf moon, but will always be checked by any physical scarfer. Since it’s really locked to HO moon doesn’t really help it too much.

Boulder/Chien: Agree

If a moon ban/sus were to be implemented, it would not be the only ban that would take place, and the very nature of the mon and what it does to the meta would mean that more work would have to be done after its gone. I think it’s a great starting point however: as its OMPL usage, set variety, and limited ways of ‘checking’ it all point to it warping the meta around it. I also think to say ‘well this other mon is still annoying so why look at this one’ is a bad way to view the action that can be taken to change the tier. You can do both, no one is stopping us from getting rid of the actually broken mons and their best enabler. I understand that you really want 2ac but I think individual mons should be looked at first because even with a phys and spdef regen mon, you would still need 2-3 mons to check a smaller portion of the physical side. I also agree with sylvi’s sentiment that moon locks out quite a bit of mons/structures from being good/viable, and using personal experience especially when building with jrdn moon felt like one of the biggest hurdles for some of the amazing cooks he had.

I will make my team dump/meta thoughts after I am done with ssnl, until then look out for kinetic’s post, we cooked for those builds and am really happy with how he played them. I will say of the builds we made during this time my favorite were the ones vs Shiloh and Lana. Thanks for reading and fill the survey out.

 

[Kinetic]

OMPL's over now, so I wanted to post a team dump and share my survey thoughts. Small disclaimer that all of these teams had some input from the goat Betticus IV since he was my teammate.

- Week 3 vs abriel
Didn't get to bring it since I won the Bo3 set before playing AAA, but I made an RMT about it here.

- Week 5 vs astralydia/fiora
Probably my favorite team out of all of the ones we built. Not even sure why, it just feels pretty good and consistent to use. Dazzling Gleam on Gholdengo still OHKOes non-RegenVest Roaring Moon even with Adaptability.

- Week 6 vs hellom
We got confirmed playoffs so I decided to meme with a paraspam team with Freddy Fazbear. Should've lost the match because the team kinda sucks but I got lucky.

- Week 7 vs Binacle Pinnacle
This was the team I intended to bring Week 6 before we got confirmed playoffs. It's a pretty good team, although it lacks a lot of special pressure so it can struggle against things like Regen Iron Hands. Decided to bring it Week 7 since I didn't want to build something else + the game mattered for getting first seed.

- Finals vs Lana

This team by far had the most effort put into it, through a combination of me and Betticus's cooking and like 15 test games against various different matchups. Lana lacked any solid switch-ins to Choice Spces Primarina and Weather Ball was a very spammable move into them in general. Double Scarf was used so that Zamazenta could bait the Deoxys-Speed or Choice Scarf Roaring Moon and OHKO it, although it sadly didn;t work out in this game. Bulletproof Iron Treads is a niche pick that provides Stealth Rock and entry hazard removal and compliments RegenVest Roaring Moon as a special wall. Corviknight was initally IDBP, but was made Defog after struggling against hazard stack and Toxic Spikes.

Survey Thoughts

2
Dragonite hits way too hard with Extreme Speed, denying a lot of offensive counterplay. It can also tech for most switch-ins, like Ice Spinner for Zapdos, Flamethrower/Thunderbolt for Corviknight, and Flamethrower/Earthquake for Gholdengo. Pecharunt can handle some non-Dragon Dance sets but it gets a little shaky especially since Pecharunt will probably also have to deal with at least another mon on the opponent's team and potentially get knocked.

2
I think the set versatility it has and the different counterplay to each set makes it too much for the tier. It has pretty much no consistent walls except for the uncommon Volt Absorb Corviknight and the niche Iron Treads, which doesn't get OHKOed by Protean Superpower. Past that, it doesn't have consistent switch-ins: mons like Roaring Moon, Gholdengo, and Scream Tail can all be OHKOed/2HKOed by the right coverage move and/or ability. Deoxys-S also outspeeds Choice Scarf Gholdengo and the entire unboosted metagame, limiting offensive counterplay.

1
Read my post on it here.

2
I'll admit Chien-Pao can be difficult to make a good team around, especially with the entry hazard weakness. However, it has pretty big pressure in the builder, especially when not using RegenVest Manaphy, which has fallen out of favor, or Intimidate Corviknight, which I don't think is that great of a mon rn, and it can be pretty easy to make a team that's weak to Chien-Pao. Chien-Pao also hits common physically defensive mons like Pecharunt and Great Tusk super effectively (although having to predict between its STABs can be annoying). It also outspeeds and threatens most non-Scarfers besides Zamazenta and Deoxys-Speed.

3
Mon is "unwallable" outside of itemless WBB or WBB Mandibuzz but most teams can softcheck it with Roaring Moon. Most teams also have at least 3 mons that can outspeed and threaten it so it's generally outplayable. I can still definitely see a case for it being too much though, especially if Roaring Moon gets banned and/or other bans happen to make the meta less offensive.

2
Zamazenta is just way too fast, powerful, and bulky. The only reliable defensive counterplay to it is Pecharunt and Fluffy users like Corviknight (mid) and Great Tusk. It also outspeeds and threatens nearly every non-Scarferer beside Deoxys-Speed and Hisuian Electrode. It also has the bulk to switch in and take a neutral hit in a pinch.

3
Matchup fish on HO. Most teams can trade with it to prevent it from setting up too much and/or revenge it at +1 with Dragonite or a Choice Scarfer like Roaring Moon or Meowscarada. It can just rip apart teams that rely on Deoxys-Speed/Choice Scarf Gholdengo for speed control though, and even Fire immunities like Primordial Sea Zapdos and WBB Gholdengo can fail to beat it under screens. I can see it getting banned for how matchup fishy it is.

2AC
I don't think this really solves anything tbh, we still have a bunch of physical attackers that are hard to consistently wall, and 2AC really doesn't help much with that.

Ice Scales
Nope, FurScales setup is stupid and I'd rather take action on the physical attackers first.

NAC
If we can then there's not really any reason not to, although I think other tiering action should be taken first.

 

[Atha]

With OMPL over I thought I would finally respond and give further thoughts about moon. I will say before diving in I still stand-by my above posts; chien/boulder (tho the ladder to a lesser degree now) are unhealthy in the current metagame and moon is a mon that I view as one of the unhealthiest aspects.


Fluff/intim corv, tusk, lu, pech, mandi, and fighting types is actually a pretty short list of mons that are able to check moon, and if we dive a bit deeper into each of these mons, we see that many are not able to check moon all that well or at all.

Fluff/intim corv is one of the most popular answers but moon has shown a plethora of ways to take both variants down. Firstly, getting the knock on corv is huge, as if it is boots it will now be taking rocks, if its helmet well there goes the passive chip you were going to use on the moon (which is totally negated by mg anyway), and if its lefties now you have no more passive recovery. The damage output that moon does to these variants is nothing, but unfortunately due to the nature of moon it doesn’t need to worry about how much damage it is doing to corv. Moon has already done its job; it got rid of the corv’s item and becomes a way to force the corv in which it can use to freely pivot in whatever it wants. Intim corv isn’t even that good of a check, as you are always rolling the dice on banded lash being used to completely negate the counterplay. Taunt is also easily slotted onto mglo, which can be used to simultaneously stop corv’s recovery and getting rid of hazards, and u-turn damage from the opposing corv can always be roosted off at a later time as moon can use its defensive utility to find an entry point. Most moon variants also lock out other forms of corv, as it may not even be worth to run an item on these since you take nearly 50% from a knock, and then 26-31 itemless, meaning it is very easy for moon to just spam knock against it especially when it is low/chipped. I’ll also lump skarm in this section as it is a metal bird, and while it does have higher defenses, it fits on less structures due to no hazard removal and pivoting, and can still fall victim to the same issues of being worn down with hazards and knock/uturn chip.

Tusk is by far and away the best defensive answer to moon, it resists both knock and uturn, but is most importantly rocks resistant and able to not care about getting taunted bc of spin. However, this mon is only able to check in the short-term due to losing lefties and ¼ of its health being lost to moon’s coverage even when fully defensive. U-turn + rock chip also adds up quite a bit especially when knocked, as a mon taking 11% on rocks and uturn is not an insignificant amount. This can further be compounded with spikes. This doesn’t even take into account that again moon can pivot on the forced tusk switch-in to whatever on its team can beat it, and you get trapped further in a vortex. These calc’s are in reference to tusk’s max hp and def set, and if you want to run a faster/more offensive tusk, you make quite a bit of a trade-off in how well the tusk can switch-in/check the moon (knock does 23-27, dclaw 38-45, eq 31-38, and uturn 11-13). If running regen tusk that comes with its own teambuilding issues and needs a decent amount of support to get off the ground, but these structures are not too common.

While regen Lu is another nice answer to moon, it is pretty niche mon and again suffers from its lefties getting knocked and having its regen nearly negated w uturn doing 25-29 to a max defense variant. Lu doesn’t even really like moon staying in on it, as mglo moon variants can roost off the damage from EQ and just play the odds until they get a low roll to pivot out, or invest just a little in HP to help this issue as well. This doesn’t even delve into the fact that regen lu structures are hard to build/fit in the current meta, and are nowhere near as splashable as other defensive options such as intim corv or defensive tusk.

Pecharunt is not a good answer to moon, and the more I play those interactions the more fraudulent it feels. A great example of how well moon is able to check pech (and lu) with team support can be seen in our finals game. Kinetic is easily able to get a vortex going anytime the pech comes in and always keep intiative by just u-turn spamming. It doesn’t even matter that moon got poisoned as we could regen it off every time. The pech getting knocked was also huge, as it was now taking 12% on every switch-in, forcing recovers more frequently than if it had kept its boots. Another check mentioned (regen Lu) was also on Lana’s team, but with offensive team support in ghold/prim, and hazard removal support in treads/corv, hstack/lu wasn’t really an issue for it that game.

Mandibuzz getting mentioned as a check feels very cope. This mon is rocks weak and takes so much from simply being neutral to uturn. Taking 17-20 from uturn everytime is not insignificant, and if you aren’t magic guard then that is on top of the 25 from rocks every switch-in. In all my games I have never found any variant of mandi hard to beat with moon, and it honestly feels like easy fodder for it.

Various fighting types: The most meta relevant fightings are realistically tusk, zam, hands, cobalion, chesnaught, and slither. Hands is good answer to moon, but if not regen struggles with longevity and being able to find openings especially with tusk, pech, and stail being so prevalent. It also doesn't like getting its item knocked (if not regen) so it finds it sometimes difficult to switch into the moon. Zam also cannot switch into moon for fear of losing its band or lefties, both integral parts of its gameplan, but is able to scare it out if it able to be safely brought in, but again pairing moon with pech you are able to largely solve this problem. Cobalion is an odd mon that is still pretty niche but if you look to my game against spell in seasonal moon is still able to annoy it greatly as I get the read on rocks and am able to do nearly 40% in that one interaction while also getting rid of its potency. Chesnaught largely fits on stall builds and can really only fish against the moon for burns/para’s. You can point to jrdn’s game where the static helped for balance builds but that relied heavily on the static actually proccing, as in some test games if it didn’t moon was able to keep momentum and be quite a nuisance. Due to this he also used grimm as a back-up to try and snipe moons with fake-out. Jrdn is also just an insanely ingenious builder and I don’t see anyone else building like him so 99% of the time ur seeing it on stall builds and that whole playstyle is not doing too hot rn. Slither is incredibly mid in the current meta and has so many things to contend with such as intim/fluff/pech/psysurge/and tusk.


I understand/agree with the notion of wanting ‘more freedom’ in the builder, and I think that having freedom in defensive options is one way that this can be done. This is because in the current meta you really can’t afford to fit a defensive mon that only checks/walls one or two things, it needs to be able to be multifaceted in its defensive capabilities, this is actually incredibly limiting as this only leaves very few mons that are able to effectively check all of chien, boulder, zam, ceru, moon, dnite (and other mons but hopefully you get the point). I also think moon is significant in this freedom as a defensive mon without its item is a huge setback for it, and when moon is able to do this with such power, defensive utility, and longevity it creates a limitation in how/what defensive options can be used.


Agree


While knock is on quite a bit of offensive threats, of the ones you mention in the same paragraph only deos and the ogers use knock consistently. For deos the only ‘reliable’ regenvest answers are iron treads, moon, to an extent pert depending on coverage. These are still shaky due to taking a knock, if the deos gets its reads right, its coverage, and what ability/item it is. The way of beating deos has shown itself to be getting the reads right, not allowing it opportunities to come in, and use a scarfer to beat it. Ogers have always been tough for defensive mons as their grass coverage alongside whatever mask they are makes what your defensive answer is dynamic, though they can be answered with immunities/hazards/and faster mons. These mons however don’t have STAB 139 atk on the knock, can’t pivot/easily fit it on, or have reliable recovery (ogers running pivot and recovery are suffering). Other breaker mons that have knock are thundy, zelf, gar, zap-g, and meow. These mons however have major drawbacks in using them whether it be their speed tier, defensive capabilities, and lack of recovery options. I heavily disagree that your regen mon is one’s best knock absorber on a team, and unless it’s a phys def regen you should be looking at ways to mitigate losing your AV. Things such as corv, tusk, pech, or your other spdef answer are much better answers to knock depending on the user in front and losing the vest is due to being outplayed or having no other option. Taunt tusk is an issue for corv but can be scouted and played around on the 50/50s, mono-defog on a team is terrible removal unless you are able to shrug off rocks on the field and one can be rightly punished for this. A good example of how to ‘handle’ taunt tusk can be seen in my game against abriel this ssnl. It actually 'loses' to pech instead of winning due to the fact that I get the poison, it’s not doing enough damage, and it can’t recover. This allows for my tusk to easily come in after and clean up as well as remove hazards on my side. These are all issues moon easily circumvents.


Agree with most of this, however I don’t think that 1AC is the root cause of this, and moon would still be heavily used in a 2AC meta because it is literally just a giant statball of a mon with a good typing so there is no reason not to use it. Yes, it would be kept more in check with physical regen, but it’s still gonna be doing the same thing it’s doing in a 1ac meta, albeit over a longer game since you would now be able to regen cycle.


I think this is the part of your argument I disagree with the most, and to say that because moon is not the only enabler in the tier it won’t solve anything if it’s gone makes no sense to me. All the mons that you mention: Meow, zelf, and trick ghold; while all can make progress similar to moon, play in game so completely different and all have drawbacks that moon does not. Meow and zelf suffer from terrible defensive typings and stats, no recovery, hazard chip, and are more likely than not choice locked. If they are not choice locked they lose out on either crucial damage amp or speed boost. Ghold still loses to certain regenvests if it tricks them a scarf and they are max spdef/resist even one of its stabs. It also loses access to its recovery option/ability to trick if it does end up with an AV, and lacks pivoting compared to moon. This all banks on the fact that they trick the regenvest, and if you play around/scout for this you can keep your vest and still be a great ghold answer. Defensive slots do not exert nearly the same power level or pressure that moon does when it comes onto the field, and one can use basically your whole team to answer a knock/pivot from something like pert or mana, but are limited greatly in comparison to what can be used to answer a knock/pivot from moon. Hell, you can even bring an offensive mon in on these pivots to prevent them from bringing in their own offensive mon, but many offensive mons do not have this luxury against moon. Don’t really understand this last part: Wow I still lose to two borderline mons and still lose to electrics because I’m not slotting in pert, desoland, other ground, and/or vabs anywhere. Also, you would probably have more defensive freedom to run things that answer these mons. Vabs corv is a great example, as it really does not like moon and can lead to different cores than the ones currently seen while simultaneously checking all three mentioned. It just isn’t seen nearly as often as the trade-off of beating electrics but losing to moon and other phys mons such as chien and boulder is tough.


I also disagree with this point because I have/had already brought up how meow is much different/worse than moon, and gambit/chien just simply do not exert the same type of pressure that moon does. Yes, it is more direct pressure but that is because they are some of the strongest breakers/cleaners if given the right opportunities. However, these mons have been shown to be much harder to build around and are nowhere near as flexible in what teams they fit on/what they can do in a game.


We can target more directly offensive mons while simultaneously talk about/target their best enabler, it doesn’t have to be one or the other.

I will also respond to the kinetic one as me and him had talked ab moon a bit just due to the nature of us being teammates and having to build every week.



Ceruledge: This mon has always been borderline due to the nature of the counterplay around it, yes moon being around keeps it in check quite a bit, this mon is actually part of the reason I like regen moon so much, because mglo was kind of a meh check to it. I do think with moon gone it would be much stronger and bar itemless wbb it would probably need to be looked at.

Deoxys-Speed: Having a physical breaker that is fast and able to knock off what deos doesn’t force in is huge for not only deos but the other teammates. If you want to use vabs corv to check deos it becomes much harder due to moon now beating it. Stail also dislikes moon heavily for its ability to KO it with minimal chip/force wishes on knocks/uturns.

Dragonite: Dnite doesn’t particularly need moon to beat its defensive checks, but it greatly appreciates no item on them/chip. Corv without helmet lets you click espeed a little more freely, no lefties means no passive recovery on ddances or ur own roosts. Fluff tusk without lefties/helmet becomes a much worse short/longterm answer to dnite. For zapdos and psysurge, I wonder what mon is able to check/beat/switch into both of these… maybe a strong spdef dark type that is also fast and able to recover off the damage.

Volcarona: This mon is actually checked quite well by scarf moon, but will always be checked by any physical scarfer. Since it’s really locked to HO moon doesn’t really help it too much.

Boulder/Chien: Agree

If a moon ban/sus were to be implemented, it would not be the only ban that would take place, and the very nature of the mon and what it does to the meta would mean that more work would have to be done after its gone. I think it’s a great starting point however: as its OMPL usage, set variety, and limited ways of ‘checking’ it all point to it warping the meta around it. I also think to say ‘well this other mon is still annoying so why look at this one’ is a bad way to view the action that can be taken to change the tier. You can do both, no one is stopping us from getting rid of the actually broken mons and their best enabler. I understand that you really want 2ac but I think individual mons should be looked at first because even with a phys and spdef regen mon, you would still need 2-3 mons to check a smaller portion of the physical side. I also agree with sylvi’s sentiment that moon locks out quite a bit of mons/structures from being good/viable, and using personal experience especially when building with jrdn moon felt like one of the biggest hurdles for some of the amazing cooks he had.

I will make my team dump/meta thoughts after I am done with ssnl, until then look out for kinetic’s post, we cooked for those builds and am really happy with how he played them. I will say of the builds we made during this time my favorite were the ones vs Shiloh and Lana. Thanks for reading and fill the survey out.

Rmoon is only checked by 3 top tier mons (yes we're counting Manaphy) and a couple other great mons, it's a consistent progress maker and pivot so we should ban it ? Sry but it just seems like you're trying hard to find reasons and they're not good enough reasons

 

[Betticus IV]

Rmoon is only checked by 3 top tier mons (yes we're counting Manaphy) and a couple other great mons, it's a consistent progress maker and pivot so we should ban it ? Sry but it just seems like you're trying hard to find reasons and they're not good enough reasons

Really great over generalization of what I have just written there. I think my reasons are fine for viewing moon as unhealthy. As even the top tier checks for it are nearly always losing in the exchanges (as I demonstrate in the post), and I didn’t even really delve into what moon forces ability/mon wise in builder as well. I think a progress maker like it that has the offensive stats, defensive utility, and longevity it does when there is no other mon comparable is unhealthy. It would open the door for different defensive cores and there actually being some form of risk in choosing and clicking w a different progress maker.