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I think Klefki should be a A+, and not S-. I don't really get what Greninja can do, other than Toxic Spikes, but I think it should be D Rank.

I forward Ho-Oh for S-, too. (Although I don't understand how it's a Darkrai check. +2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 178-210 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO means that Stealth Rock = dead. If you screw up on predicting your opponent or Sleep Talk RNG fails you, you also lose. If the opponent doesn't run Nasty Plot, it probably will run Taunt or Sludge Bomb. It can deal with Sludge Bomb, but to beat Taunt, Ho-oh would have to switch in and out for recovery, which could hurt the entire team) Ho-oh is one of the best CM SteelCeus checks (Oh yeah, I think SteelCeus should be promoted to A or A+ rank, as it's one of the best late game sweepers in AG), can beat Xerneas 1on1 (Thunder is a thing, but people can run EVs to survive one at +2), pressure opponents with Life Orb, Lum, Choice Band, Thunder Wave, Toxic, or Substitute. (Personally, I find the Life Orb + T-wave sets to be devastating)

Finally, can Blissey/Chansey/Clefable leave D Rank? Like, C- for beginners, but at least not D rank.
 

MZ

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I think the Swagger success rate should be written as 45% instead of 50%, as Swagger can miss. Also, maybe slash Toxic on the first set. On Dual Screen, maybe slash Spikes. Just some thoughts.
If you want to discuss any analyses, the place is in the Other Metagames Analyses Discussion Thread. I'm not sure about the swagger success rate thing and how the site handles that but there's no reason to slash toxic on the set designed for swagkeys and while we discussed spikes on dual screens that's ultimately not its purpose and keys only effectively does one at a time, which is why it wasn't slashed there.
 
If you want to discuss any analyses, the place is in the Other Metagames Analyses Discussion Thread. I'm not sure about the swagger success rate thing and how the site handles that but there's no reason to slash toxic on the set designed for swagkeys and while we discussed spikes on dual screens that's ultimately not its purpose and keys only effectively does one at a time, which is why it wasn't slashed there.
Swagger is definitely 45% chance to confuse on turn 1. Not sure about turn 2 and so on. I personally find Toxic on SwagPlay to be more effective, but whatever. I've seen more Spikes on Dual Screen than not, however. (Although that set would be completely ruined by Defog, maybe not a good idea) Also, thanks, I will discuss my stuff there.
 
hi yo noms, dont have times for long explanations, ask if you need clarification!

Unrank Arceus Psychic as it is completely terrible. Show me a single team its been used on. Zang and I had a team with it, its shit, completely. We aren't Ubers, we don't have to rank the random terrible stuff.

Unrank Reshiram as again, it is completely terrible.

Unrank Heatran because it has no relevancy in AG, not doing anything relevant that something else doesn't do better. Being extremely weak to the ground coverage everything has doesnt help either.

Unrank Kyurem-Black as it is just bad.

Jirachi to D as it is outclassed as a hax god by skymin, but besides that its just generally very mediocre and team specific. Its typing is nice, Healing Wish support is nice, but again it is very team specific and as such D is all I can justify ranking it in.

Regular Groudon to C, its biggest niche is beating pdon and pdon isnt AS common in ag as ubers, though still very common. It has other uses, such as not being weak to ground coverage, but losing the ability to switch into pogre, absorb burns, etc, hurt it a lot. Its a niche mon; not as good as say bronzong or ditto.

Greninja to C+ or lower, I don't see how a suicide lead thats worse than deo-s is ranked so high, and offensive greninja is pretty laughable. Why is it even this high in the first place ?_?

Kyu-W to C-, this being in the same rank as skarm/mega sab/etc genuinely made me chuckle. Its ok, being hard to switch into and strong af, but its speed/typing/weakness to sr/general outclassedness is crippling and it being in B is a joke. It has a niche; a tiny one.




There was discussion in the room about S. Having an S+ defeats the whole purpose of an "s-rank threat", but having an S- does not. So I propose Mega Ray, Klefki, Pdon, and Xerneas to S- and Darkrai/Arceus remain in S. Reasoning is that they are by far the most centralizing things, both are extremely potent and are nearly never dead weight. Arceus is easier to fit on teams, and has more variety, whereas Darkrai is unique in that it has absolutely no safe switchins. There was some discussion that Darkrai isn't the same level as normalceus, but I strongly believe its actually equally good or better, so we can hear some thoughts on that.

Provided we go that direction and do an S-, Ho-oh to S- is my next nom. I find its just so easy to fit on teams, so hard to take down thanks to regenerator, and actually functions as one of the best darkrai "answers" in the game via sleep talk combined with great special bulk, so S- is definitely where it belongs in my eyes.

Agree with Psychceus, Reshiram and Kyu-B. Jirachi being D doesn't seem too bad, either, considering it being completely walled by p don. I couldn't give two shits about greninja.
Arguments on heatran - To be honest, balloon heatran is a mon that can be worked around. It is pretty decent to trap and kill stall mons with magma storm and toxic, it is a decent mon when worked with levitate users and could work as a lead against p don as well (non stone edge forms). It's also maybe the most reliable check against non-eq ho oh forms. As a solo mon, it is completely worthless and easy to take down. But it certainly isn't worthless with the right sort of support. I think a D rank for it is very much reasonable (considering the fact that bugceus, fireceus, grassceus and Forretress got a spot)

Arguments on regular don - Au contraire, I believe this is one of the most underrated defensive walls in the game. It works as a lead, is one of the best klefki checks with lum berry(while also getting a para on rai 1v1), has access to roar/toxic/twave, which is highly appreciated by its enormous bulk. On the other hand, it can slap on a band and hit 90% of the meta with over 80% damage (OHko's xern, e killers, mray, sp def p dons, modest ogres after rocks). Its abilities as a rock setter are well known. Players like Curve have used regular dons successfully in the past and they'll tell you that it does its job and it does it well. Just because it doesn't do what p don does (switch in on ogre, absorbing fire hits) does not mean it isn't good. I do not understand how mega scizor/palkia/latias/aegislash can prove to be better at what they do as opposed to don. Moreover, demoting it to C would mean that it is in the same league as Arceus-Ice - which I have never, ever seen used well on the ladder, btw. I actually could argue for it being pushed to B-

Arguments on Kyu-W - Cons - Admittedly unreliable and easy to be taken out. It doesn't OHko much in the meta without specs, and has to suffer the draco drop AND being locked into draco with specs. This often ends up being setup fodder.
Pros - Just the sheer power. This is a REALLY good wallbreaker which hits almost everything hard that isn't named chansey/p ogre. I don't think the LO sets are too bad, either, and is really helped by its ability (ignoring sturdy/multiscale users). Can be used with a ditto to avoid the opponent setting up, and constantly hitting hard.
I really don't agree with skarm being too many leagues above kyu-w, anymore. Skarm just gets shat on by most special mons and e killers/mray run overheat/v-create on most teams (at least the good teams). And moreover, there are some AWFUL mons in B-. The worst Kyu-w should do in viability should be B-, I'd say.

Also, if S and S- are ever to be a thing, Mray should NOT ever be below arceus. Try making a team that checks Mray and you'll understand why. While arceus is easily checked and countered, Mray has way too many variations to ever be checked properly. The only reason why Arc spam is even a thing is because of mega-clause.

On a side note, "Ho-oh to S- is my next nom. I find its just so easy to fit on teams" is perhaps as wrong as it gets. Ho oh is the most difficult mon to fit in a team because of its rocks weakness. Try fitting it in a team and you'll have to design the whole team to suit Ho oh being switched in safely. Not to mention taunt rai just shits on the sleep talk set. Ho oh is a decent mon when worked with the right team, but it certainly doesn't fit 90% teams in the meta, especially HO teams. It definitely doesn't go above A+, imo.
 

Chloe

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Okay, I wanna get these unranks and deranks done quickly since they're mostly terrible Pokémon that don't deserve their current ranks. I'll suggest the ones that haven't been argued against yet.

If they get no rebuttal within 24 hours I'm going through with them.

Arceus-Psychic - D to Unranked
Kyurem-Black - D to Unranked
Reshiram - D to Unranked

Kyurem-White - B to C
Greninja - B- to C
 
I've seen a good team based around Diancie-Mega, Gengar-Mega, and Mewtwo-X, but I've never seen Salamence-Mega or Scizor-Mega inaction. What makes MegaMence better than MMY, and just as good as MMX? In fact, isn't Mega Kang better than Salamence or Scizor? Can we get them lowered down a rank or two? From what I think of them, I think the C rank description, "Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the AG metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon." seems to fit better.
 

MZ

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Scizor is xern check first and foremost (plus helps with other stuff like Ekiller, etc) and is good because you can easily pivot out on stuff like ho-oh or don that would be the counters, in all of its favorable situations you lose little by going for a slow u-turn and keeping up offensive momentum. I have an rmt with it here. I'm generally opposed to a drop but just clarifying since it seemed like you more didn't know what it did rather than thinking its bad enough to fall
 
Scizor is xern check first and foremost (plus helps with other stuff like Ekiller, etc) and is good because you can easily pivot out on stuff like ho-oh or don that would be the counters, in all of its favorable situations you lose little by going for a slow u-turn and keeping up offensive momentum. I have an rmt with it here. I'm generally opposed to a drop but just clarifying since it seemed like you more didn't know what it did rather than thinking its bad enough to fall
I feel like these viability rankings aren't even based off of the rank descriptions... Welp. But Salamence has no notable flaws, at the cost of having no niche other than slightly faster + intimidate + Aerialite over M-Ray, which has the ability to carry items, Delta Stream, and other stuff. I mean, it must be a viable Pokemon, but isn't it redundant and generally weaker? I don't see it on the same level as MMX, but to accurately check the viability of MegaMence, you pretty much need a non-M-Ray AG tier, because I bet 9/10 people would use M-Ray over MegaMence. If nobody uses MegaMence, it might as well be non viable. (If I'm using the usage stat properly, it seems like it gets less than 1/33 times the usage as M-Ray, which is sad. And, tbh, anything beneath top 40 in usage seems to be shitty troll mons used by the low ladder, other than Excadrill. Also, is Talonflame really the 29th most common Pokemon in 1760 or above play? I don't see Talonflame on the viability rankings, lel.)
As for Mega Scizor. So, U-turn momentum + handy Steel Type priority + access to Defog/Roost/SD/Knock Off to allow it to fit in many types of teams. Seems alright. My bad, then.
 

Josh

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The viability rankings aren't based on the rank descriptions, those are inaccurate and I've said for a long time to remove them, arguments based around those are stupid so please stop.

Usage =/= viability as well, so stop rambling on around that.

to accurately check the viability of MegaMence, you pretty much need a non-M-Ray AG tier, because I bet 9/10 people would use M-Ray over MegaMence.
This has to be the dumbest thing I've seen in a while. Their typing may be the same, but they perform completely different roles. Ray is a wallbreaker, whereas Mence is a bulky setup sweeper, with intimidate, and the ability to act as support as well with stuff like wish, defog, dtail, etc, and unlike Ray, Mence actually has roost. And lets pretend for a second that it was eclipsed by Ray completely, then we wouldn't "pretty much need a non-M-Ray AG tier", we would just need to unrank it because its not viable. You can't just take out somethings biggest competition and then call it good.
 
Just because a particular mon isn't used a lot doesn't mean it "can't" be used a lot. Viability is based on whether or not a mon can be useful if it is used, irrelevant of whether or not the current ladder is using it. If you want to see which mons are being used, look for usage stats or something.
I doubt anyone can come forward with an argument which would make me believe Mega mence is worse than B+, because of the various roles it can play and fitting into almost any sort of team and doing its job well. And on that note, even if you're suggesting D dance mega mence is the only viable set in AG (which is not true), Mray outclasses almost any physically offensive mon in the game. So going by your logic, there should be no viability rankings and Mray should be the only thing on this list.

I don't see it on the same level as MMX, but to accurately check the viability of MegaMence, you pretty much need a non-M-Ray AG tier, because I bet 9/10 people would use M-Ray over MegaMence.
I also bet 9/10 people would use Mray over MMX, what's your point? Mray is S ranked, Mega Mence is B+. Of course 9/10 would use Mray over Mega mence.
 

Chloe

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Zangooser I'd like to suggest you make the names of the mons in vr link to the analyses as some tiers do. Makes it easier on new people to understand what a mon does.
As you can see I had already done that for Klefki, but unfortunately I had not known the two analyses were up and therefore have not linked them as of yet.

Edit: Linked, thank me fam.
 
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P-Ogre - A --> B+

This mon does not serve any purpose in the [physical offence dominated] AG meta. On paper it checks the Don, but finds a hard time switching in. Perhaps a niche is dealing with the CM/support Arceus form. These themselves are uncommon, and are better dealt with by higher viability mons such as Pdon and Ho-oh. Although a special powerhouse, it struggles to find any mon to switch in to. There is close to nothing that warrants Pogre's place in a well-constructed team.
 
Arceus Ground - A+ -A/A-
Aegislash - B - C+

Arceus Ground just isn't as good in practicality as it is on paper. While it is one of the best answers in the game for P don, it can often end up being setup fodder for Mray and is completely helpless against all ogre forms, has the 4 move syndrome - not running wisp on it would mean it has a hard time against e killers, and running wisp means that it has to ditch either ice beam or defog/rocks (whicever job it is being used to do), which loses its "support" status in any team. Offensive Groundceus is even more of an Mray setup fodder, making it quite a liability. A+ just seems too good to have something with balanced pros and cons.

And secondly, if it were up to me, aegislash would be out of this list. It does absolutely nothing other than checking xern in AG. It is useful in Ubers because it can be built around when P don/E killers can't be spammed and Mray isn't a thing. Almost everything in the higher viability list shits on Aegi other than Xern and Lugia (and maybe mdiancie). Other than that, it means free SD for Ceus, free d dance for Mray and a possibly free rock polish/SD for P don.
Look at it just from an AG point of view and it does absolutely nothing.

P-Ogre - A --> B+

This mon does not serve any purpose in the [physical offence dominated] AG meta. On paper it checks the Don, but finds a hard time switching in. Perhaps a niche is dealing with the CM/support Arceus form. These themselves are uncommon, and are better dealt with by higher viability mons such as Pdon and Ho-oh. Although a special powerhouse, it struggles to find any mon to switch in to. There is close to nothing that warrants Pogre's place in a well-constructed team.
+1
Ogre is one of those mons that should work wonderfully, but just doesn't. Harsh sun makes Origin Pulse very hard to spam and ice beam/thunder are just weak, imo. It never really gets to use CM well enough. Physically defensive ogre (again, sweet on paper) doesn't work as a rai check because of taunt, still gets shat on by P don and loses the ability to OHKo e killers after rocks, while also possibly becoming setup fodder. Too good on paper, not so much in practice.
 

MZ

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Here are some things I don't like

Things in high ranks u never really use as much as lots of other stuff and need to drop
mewtwo, mmy: Decent and great speed helps w/darkrai and stuff but no bulk and not nearly as used/good as other shit around them. Both could drop a subrank
aegislash: Nommed this to drop several pages back but got ignored, I'd be ok with C+ ish
megamence: C/C+ seems way more fair, nice check to Ekiller a few times but then u realize most of the meta just doesn't have an issue with it
Smeargle: Too frail and unreliable, certainly needs to go B
pogre: One sub rank not 2 pls it's not that bad and lmao at that hate it's not that bad
There is close to nothing that warrants Pogre's place in a well-constructed team.
@_@

things in lower ranks u use way more than their ranking reflects
Skarmory: Really good rn, rise of V-create ray sucks but it blanket checks so much and spikes are underrated. Definitely want this in B+
Zekrom: Scarf is sp00ky, ray checks are good, sets other than scarf like shuca or sub are really really niche but good in their own respect. Also want this in B+
arc poison: Solid xern check, offensive and defensive sets are annoying, putting it with greninja and garchomp is fucking stupid. C+/B- pls
Dragonceus: Close to as good as if not better than waterceus, after testing it's like the same thing but OHKOs ray and fares worse vs Klefki which is absolutely worth somewhere in the B ranks

Things that are kind of dubious but could use discussion
Espeon: Less convinced about this than anything else, but it's like ranking BP as a B- strategy, I just think it's too matchup/moody and evasion reliant and this could drop to C+
Rockceus: This thing is certainly not bad, especially now that V-Create is more common on Ray. Still, it's just fairly mediocre versus so much other shit, steelceus is rising, a good majority of the high ranks just beat it, it's basically around because it checks ray/hooh/yveltal/lugia and has a fair matchup versus ekiller then loses to everything else. Could see this in B+
Mega Aerodactyl: First off, shitty argument, but "lol we have worse stuff ranked so why not". This thing does fine as a SR setter and offensive mon that actually checks the Espeed users and birds, a simple SR/Taunt/Edge/EQ set is surprisingly annoying to deal with if you've ever faced it and beating out darkrai is so nice. No reason not to give this C- absolute minimum and from my experience I think C+ isn't unreasonable

Also there's no way we're dropping Groundceus 2 ranks, it has 2 offensive sets with totally different counters, a Twave immunity and great STAB, very threatening cleaner, I can't even see it in A rank where it's certainly better than all of those current mons
 
Also there's no way we're dropping Groundceus 2 ranks, it has 2 offensive sets with totally different counters, a Twave immunity and great STAB, very threatening cleaner, I can't even see it in A rank where it's certainly better than all of those current mons
What does groundceus do that plenty of other ceus' variants don't, other than checking P don (which it still isn't a reliable switch in for, risking being burned by plume and getting 2hko'd after the burn)? Its STAB, while powerful, is ignored by Mray/Y-God/Ho oh, which in return force a switch, setup on it, or kill it. Running Stone edge is unreliable on SD variants because a) its inaccuracy and b) It would most probably mean it becomes complete setup fodder for Mray (252+ Atk Arceus-Ground Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 113-133 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO).
The specially offensive variation is shat on completely by ho oh and P ogre. Not being able to spam stab judgment reliably doesn't make it any better. It doesn't even OHko specially defensive p don. It doesn't do any specific job well enough for it to be considered better than Steelceus/Waterceus or be on the same level as fairyceus/ghostceus.
 

MZ

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What does groundceus do that plenty of other ceus' variants don't, other than checking P don (which it still isn't a reliable switch in for, risking being burned by plume and getting 2hko'd after the burn)? Its STAB, while powerful, is ignored by Mray/Y-God/Ho oh, which in return force a switch, setup on it, or kill it. Running Stone edge is unreliable on SD variants because a) its inaccuracy and b) It would most probably mean it becomes complete setup fodder for Mray (252+ Atk Arceus-Ground Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 113-133 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO).
The specially offensive variation is shat on completely by ho oh and P ogre. Not being able to spam stab judgment reliably doesn't make it any better. It doesn't even OHko specially defensive p don. It doesn't do any specific job well enough for it to be considered better than Steelceus/Waterceus or be on the same level as fairyceus/ghostceus.
I think you've missed the entire point here. Both sets are good on their own, it's having them together that makes it that much better. Should I be going Y-God and Giratina or Ho-Oh and Kyogre? I'm not too sure and I need to be prepared for CM and SD. Like you mention Edge being bad because ray sets up on it but it's not like you wanna bring ray in either and ray can't even counter SD 3 attacks
8 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 154-182 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 205-242 (58.4 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 164-194 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
Also not running stone edge because accuracy? Since when did that ever become an acceptable argument? You need edge for ray/hooh/ygod end of story.
Meanwhile you say that special sets get shat on by Pogre and Ho-Oh. All CM arc formes other than rock and electric get shat on by ho-oh and sure, Kyogre is another check you get. But without reliable recovery offensive sets are slowly gonna get whittled and it's not like teammates can't handle rest sets. Like all you've said is Groundceus has totally different checks depending on its set which is a point in its favor. And oh no, it can't ohko Pdon. Like every other non-Air Lock water move ray pokemon in the metagame.
Normal: Phys and special with good defensive typing (still obv better)
Ghost: Checks different things with ground typing, more outwardly threatening with Edgequake after an SD
Fairy: Fares far better against PDon and Klefki, can boost on both sides effectively
Rock: Isn't weak to PDon, has SD and CM sets
Steel: SD Steelceus is really mediocre and also weak to PDon
Water: CM and SD Waterceus suck, they do totally different things

And yes, I'm bringing up two sets and good vs PDon a lot because that's huge, two sets makes it threatening like any other arceus and unpredictable, not being ground weak is pretty nice in a meta where 3-4 S ranks can carry ground coverage and another 5 in the A ranks. And sure, it's not a perfect reliable switch for don if it's plume and gets lucky, but you still have recover on most sets, still force it out, are still useful for the rest of the game? Not rly a detriment.
 
I think you've missed the entire point here. Both sets are good on their own, it's having them together that makes it that much better. Should I be going Y-God and Giratina or Ho-Oh and Kyogre? I'm not too sure and I need to be prepared for CM and SD. Like you mention Edge being bad because ray sets up on it but it's not like you wanna bring ray in either and ray can't even counter SD 3 attacks
8 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 154-182 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 205-242 (58.4 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 164-194 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
Also not running stone edge because accuracy? Since when did that ever become an acceptable argument? You need edge for ray/hooh/ygod end of story.
Meanwhile you say that special sets get shat on by Pogre and Ho-Oh. All CM arc formes other than rock and electric get shat on by ho-oh and sure, Kyogre is another check you get. But without reliable recovery offensive sets are slowly gonna get whittled and it's not like teammates can't handle rest sets. Like all you've said is Groundceus has totally different checks depending on its set which is a point in its favor. And oh no, it can't ohko Pdon. Like every other non-Air Lock water move ray pokemon in the metagame.
Normal: Phys and special with good defensive typing (still obv better)
Ghost: Checks different things with ground typing, more outwardly threatening with Edgequake after an SD
Fairy: Fares far better against PDon and Klefki, can boost on both sides effectively
Rock: Isn't weak to PDon, has SD and CM sets
Steel: SD Steelceus is really mediocre and also weak to PDon
Water: CM and SD Waterceus suck, they do totally different things

And yes, I'm bringing up two sets and good vs PDon a lot because that's huge, two sets makes it threatening like any other arceus and unpredictable, not being ground weak is pretty nice in a meta where 3-4 S ranks can carry ground coverage and another 5 in the A ranks. And sure, it's not a perfect reliable switch for don if it's plume and gets lucky, but you still have recover on most sets, still force it out, are still useful for the rest of the game? Not rly a detriment.
Well explained, and quite useful.
But where this usually goes wrong is both Groundceus' being unable to have anything for Mray. Special Groundceus will almost never run CM, meaning Mray doesn't have to switch in and whatever is facing it can stay. Mray comes in next turn easily and sets up on it. If it does run cm, it is not so useful in general, as there are a plethora of things within AG that shit on cm ceus forms, and groundceus will have an issue with birds/levitate and ice beam not being a strong second move. It also misses out on defog and wisp. It also does not matter if P ogre or Ho oh run recovery, which ho oh might run in most cases, they both take almost nothing from Groundceus, and P ogre can set up CM on it or just OHKo it with pulse, and quite easily. With the SD variation, since you've given calcs for e speed and SE, I am assuming recovery isn't what we're going for. Also, this seems like a bulky adamant variation, which means the SD EQ most likely will be outsped and Groundceus will take tremendous damage before Mray (or any mon) comes in next, which is IF it survives. It already being weak gives Mray a chance to kill it, or setup on it and kill it with e speed if it is weak enough.
And this is, IMO, why all those forms are better than Groundceus
Fairyceus - a legitimate Mray check, something almost nothing else can qualify as. Judgment/EP is pretty spam-able, although judgment/toxic is far better. Checks Y god, MMX, gira (with recover-refresh-judgment-toxic), which are three of the best known checks for e killers, providing it some actual reason to be run in a team, where as Groundceus will be a solo mon in most teams and do lesser jobs than Fairyceus, anyway. Just because Groundceus MIGHT be able to deal with klefki and p don, which comes down to luck a lot of times, does not make it better. There is more to AG than just klefki and p don, and there are plenty of things fairyceus checks which Groundceus doesn't.
Ghostceus - Probably one of the best things to have in an HO team to deal with e killers. Both CM and SD variations are capable of handling their own. SD Edgequake is also not as spam-able as SD-SF/SC-Brick Break-SE, and it also gains the ability to absorb e speeds. Due to it being shat on by Y-god so hard, I wouldn't rate CM ghostceus too highly, though. But SD ghostceus definitely serves more purpose and provides more team support than both Groundceus forms. It is also capable of running the two sets variation, btw.
Steelceus - Another mon which can run physically and specially offensive sets. P don beats it, in theory, but predicting a p don switch in and going for EP would mean a 2hko on any set other than max sp def and HP. CM sets face the same issue as Groundceus of being shat on by ho oh and ogre, though. However, it serves way more purpose than Groundceus would, by checking fairyceus, non fmiss xern, Lugia, absorbing toxic(which is arguably better than absorbing twave), being able to spam judgment better and running the same two set variations. It also wont need two spots in a team for it to work efficiently, like fairyceus and Ghostceus. And it is ranked A-, same as I am asking Groundceus to be ranked.

P-S All these arguments are carried out under the assumption that Mray has to be a switch in for Groundceus. But if it turns out to be Mray vs Groundceus 1v1, we are looking at a potential sweep for Mray.

I must admit, I have never tried the 2 set Groundceus variation in practice. I will test its viability, however, I doubt it serves enough purpose or is threatening enough to be ranked two places over Steelceus.
 
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MZ

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However, I must admit, I have never tried the 2 set Groundceus variation in practice. I will test its viability, however, I doubt it serves enough purpose or is threatening enough to be ranked two places over Steelceus.
No, I'm not saying you should run both on the same team, that'd be bad. What I'm saying is that your reasoning is "well look at xzy things check SD and xyz things check CM so it's bad". Groundceus is immediately threatening off the bat because you don't know what set it's running and it's almost never obvious from team preview, which is a huge boon. After that you've simply written it off as "you have checks", but I could list far more, similar, and more relevant checks to the other good arceus formes if I wanted to. Groundceus isn't more easily checked than Steelceus or Rockceus at all, and one set not having too much for ray isn't really a drawback when ray takes upwards of 50% switching in on SR to the set that it's actually good against. Then you've said groundceus beating things like don and keys is down to luck, but it's a totally legit check and no other arc formes do that ?_? I really don't get that at all. Most of what you've said boils down to
If it does run cm, it is not so useful in general
Theres not too much reasoning, just "I don't like how things check it and it's iffy. Then of course there's a whole list of other arceus formes without actually taking into account their drawbacks. You cant focus on Groundceus's negatives and just list what's good about the others and how you can whittle Pdon slowly with good play so it's not really an issue. If anything I'd far prefer Steelceus go up to A (this should have some serious consideration imo) but none of the arguments here make me even slightly more interested in dropping this thing.
 
No, I'm not saying you should run both on the same team, that'd be bad. What I'm saying is that your reasoning is "well look at xzy things check SD and xyz things check CM so it's bad". Groundceus is immediately threatening off the bat because you don't know what set it's running and it's almost never obvious from team preview, which is a huge boon.
" Surprise element " isn't exactly an argument on rating any mon as A+
You get one game of surprise element and then reveal your set for the next games. It is not something that will have perks over and over again.
Groundceus isn't more easily checked than Steelceus or Rockceus at all, and one set not having too much for ray isn't really a drawback when ray takes upwards of 50% switching in on SR to the set that it's actually good against. Then you've said groundceus beating things like don and keys is down to luck, but it's a totally legit check and no other arc formes do that ?_? I really don't get that at all.
Lol so have you not been reading or is this your attempt to sound dominant? Groundceus absorbs twave from klefki, not swagger. In no universe is it a check for Klefki. Taking 50% isn't half bad, considering it pretty much gets a free D dance and kill, and we haven't even discussed what happens if Mray comes in 1v1 on either groundceus forms. Moreover, I'd really like an elaboration on "Groundceus isn't checked easier than Steelceus", as I just wrote what seems to be like a novel to me, explaining how easily Groundceus is checked by some of the most common threats in the meta.

Theres not too much reasoning, just "I don't like how things check it and it's iffy. Then of course there's a whole list of other arceus formes without actually taking into account their drawbacks. You cant focus on Groundceus's negatives and just list what's good about the others and how you can whittle Pdon slowly with good play so it's not really an issue.
Bruh, I really request you to go back to what I wrote and read all of it once again. I mentioned Groundceus' checks because that is basically what I have to do if I am asking for it to be dropped ranks. I didn't mention any of the things it checks because there are close to none. I mentioned it being potentially useful because of its offensive presence. I also mentioned it becoming a huge liability against HO teams, especially the ones backed by Mray. It being ranked A+ should mean it has more perks to it than reasons why one shouldn't use it. Just having two different sets is NOT one of those reasons, repeating it over and over again won't make it true. And " I don't like how things check it and it's iffy" would be a legit argument to drop something if it isn't serving any specific purpose in a team.
 

MZ

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" Surprise element " isn't exactly an argument on rating any mon as A+
You get one game of surprise element and then reveal your set for the next games. It is not something that will have perks over and over again.
No, but it makes groundceus harder to deal with. You didn't understand the point so I cleared it up. Besides, most of your argument is predicated on "well it has checks" and the surprise factor makes those checks much more shaky seeing as you don't want to bring in your Gira-O and get bopped with an Ice Beam. There's no reason why you can't count this as a decent reason, although it was never my main reason for it to drop.
Lol so have you not been reading or is this your attempt to sound dominant? Groundceus absorbs twave from klefki, not swagger. In no universe is it a check for Klefki.
Just gonna make sure I get your point here. Being immune to Twave does not help vs Klefki and it is not a relevant benefit for Groundceus? I'm not sure I have that clear.
Taking 50% isn't half bad, considering it pretty much gets a free D dance and kill, and we haven't even discussed what happens if Mray comes in 1v1 on either groundceus forms.
I'm talking about how you called SD Groundceus switchin fodder for ray. My point was just that it isn't, that is all. And let's not count this as a massive issue, Steelceus also gets Danced on in a 1v1 scenario.
Moreover, I'd really like an elaboration on "Groundceus isn't checked easier than Steelceus", as I just wrote what seems to be like a novel to me, explaining how easily Groundceus is checked by some of the most common threats in the meta.
Well, let's take a look at the S-A ranks. Ray, Darkrai, both neutral. Groundceus handles Groudon much better, Steelceus handles Xerneas better and Arceus too but is shaky versus it because +2 EQ etc. Groundceus now is better versus Ho-Oh, Ghostceus, Klefki, and opposing Groundceus, while Steelceus will do better versus Fairyceus and Lugia. Groundceus is about neutral versus Mega Diancie (no resist to STABs but no weakness to Earth Power) and superior vs Mewtwo (one of fire or focus blast is essential, ice beam is not and is weaker), Primal Kyogre (physical does a good chunk, CM Steelceus is not nearly as good versus it although neither appreciate the matchup) and Yveltal is neutral imo since Groundceus either carries SD+Edge or CM+Ice Beam. Oh, then it's better versus Megagar, Rockceus, Steelceus, and special handles Gira-O. I could go on, but I don't want to and a quick skim shows me it's better versus the common lower ranks as well. And this isn't really a stretch, I'm just counting. When you say "Groundceus is checked by some of the most common threats in the meta" we're basically talking about Megaray, Darkrai, Lugia, and Ho-Oh for the CM sets. Which also can beat Steelceus. Frankly this counting thing is kinda stupid, but since you asked here it is.
Bruh, I really request you to go back to what I wrote and read all of it once again. I mentioned Groundceus' checks because that is basically what I have to do if I am asking for it to be dropped ranks. I didn't mention any of the things it checks because there are close to none. I mentioned it being potentially useful because of its offensive presence. I also mentioned it becoming a huge liability against HO teams, especially the ones backed by Mray. It being ranked A+ should mean it has more perks to it than reasons why one shouldn't use it. Just having two different sets is NOT one of those reasons, repeating it over and over again won't make it true. And " I don't like how things check it and it's iffy" would be a legit argument to drop something if it isn't serving any specific purpose in a team.
Yeah I just disagree on the whole checks thing. In practice it's a very annoying mon to face, extra check to keys, don, and a ton of other stuff (see: big list) and just doesn't merit a drop. The argument is "it has too many checks compared to other things" and I think this is absolutely not the case (hooh has more. Hell, lugia has more if you call p much all pokemon with status and recovery a check seeing as it's crippled for the rest of the game).
 

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