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>Greninja
>Kyurem-White
U mad bruh?
One, adding Greninja kind of made your post look stupid.
Second, Kyurem-White isn't going to switch in to anything Zekrom is using but scarf Bolt Strike, and if it you do try to switch in to Kyurem-White, you can only really switch in on Fusion Flare. Kyurem-White also has 95 speed and STAB Ice Beam/Draco Meteor. You'll lose unless you're Scarf and they are Spec.
With that said, I do agree that it is a good mon. However, B-Strike + Outrage/Dragon Claw coverage means that if its banded or scarf, a Pokemon can easily sponge a hit and go to a mon that resists the move. (P-don, Xerneas, etc) Orb is kind of too slow for practical use, and the lack of power is noticeable. And this Pokemon relies a lot in prediction skills, and a Pokemon relying on only prediction skills to be effective is going to lose you games in the long run. Of course, it feels satisfying when you win via prediction, but I doubt it will get you too far, as it also means that the opponent can beat you if they predict better than you. And if your opponent is using a Xerneas, you will be blocked from using Dragon Claw, as even if you kill a mon with Dragon Claw/Outrage, you become total set up bait to Xerneas afterwards. This mon is too high risk, medium reward for my liking, at least.

Vote Trump Wobbuffet for president.



I think it would be fine if this thing got promoted to B+, but not A or A-.
First, yes, I know, Greninja will be killed by anything that hits it, but if I didn't include it there would be that one idiot that would pm me that I missed it, so I decided to include it for the sake of accuracy.

Second, I fail to see where I had once mentioned anything about Kyu-W switching into Zekrom or vice versa. I realise I did talk on the Shuca Berry, but I specifically mentioned a neutral Ice Beam, as in one not affected by STAB. Furthermore, I fail to see how your analysis of a Kyu-W vs Zekrom battle actually makes sense, as you do mention both of them starting on a 95 base speed, which already puts the win chance at 50/50, far from hopeless. Then, taking into account that near all Kyu-W are Choice Specs, the Specs/Scarf matchup isn't overly unlikely. Even if Zekrom has a poor chance at beating Kyu-W, which I honestly do not believe, your argument here has little relevance to Zekrom's overall usefullness, as Kyu-W is only one Pokemon.

I can appreciate your arguments on the Choice items, and it is entirely possible for an opponent to switch into Pdon or Xerneas to avoid Zekrom's STABs. However, your argument voids itself here on the basis that your team has six Pokemon as well, and pre-emptivly switching is just as easy for you as your opponent, and as such neither momentum nor pressure is lost, meaning that this argument is barely viable and not a good enough reason, at least in my eyes, to prevent a promotion.

I do not see how your arguments on prediction add any particular merit to your overall case either. Zekrom, although capable of taking the field for an extended amount of time, is primarily intended as a revenge killer, not a sweeper. Due to this, large amount of prediction are not required at all to use Zekrom, as KO'ing a weakened Pokemon is not difficult.

So far, the only argument you have presented worth considering is your point on Xerneas. However, a check such as Xerneas, which is easily devistated by moves such as Bolt Strike, is no good reason for Zekrom to not be promoted, since even the best of the best, the S-ranks, each have checks and counters.

I apologize if I seem cold, but I spent too much time on my speech to be shot down this easily.
 

MZ

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Yache berry is Ice resist, shuca is ground
Zekrom is going B+ at best though, you basically said "here's what it hits for super effective damage" without actually making any real arguments or addressing its flaws.
Wouldn't mind Quagsire in C rank
Stop nominating the latis to drop and actually use them @_@
 
Issues with Zekrom
Hitting stuff super effectively and actually ensuring kills are two completely different things. Other than being a switch in for Mray and getting a decent OHKO on specially def Lugia, Zekrom doesn't have any other notable niche in AG. Both of its stab moves are absorbed, and to say that fairy/ground types are one of the most common types won't be far fetched. Moreover, Zekrom can prove to be fodder for both Xerns/double dance p dons, which are two of the most powerful sweepers in the game. Not only does Zekrom require ridiculous support, it doesn't quite sweep teams or actually prove to be a huge threat to any team on its own. On the contrary, both scarf and band sets turn out to be a liability, more often than not, and any other set just get walled/eliminated by many things in the meta. I don't think this needs to be anywhere else on the viability charts except where it already is.

Noms
I think I speak for everyone when I say the eons are overrated as fuck. Need to be dropped C-/D
Quagsire is a highly underrated physical wall. It can fit into most teams looking for something to tank physical hits or as a reliable defensive unaware user. It gets counter and is quite good at toxic stalling, while it tanks almost any physically offensive hit in the game. I nom it for C+
gdi, these are actually pretty good points. I contest your statement that Zekrom requires large amounts of support, as most good teams can already handle Xern and Pdon, and as such Zekrom can slip in wherever an empty slot comes up. I completely disagree with Scarf being a liability, as while acting as a revenge killer being locked into one move isn't massively disadvantageous with the correct prediction. I think that simply listing what Zekrom can hit super effectively is perfectly fine in this context, namely presenting Zekrom as a revenge killer, as a super-effective hit is generally more than proficient to KO a weakened Pokemon. Aside from that, I guess your argument does make sense, and A rank was a little too big. Still, I believe that the standing points merit a B+ rank.

C+ is good for quag, anyone who's ever used it would support this.
 
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However, your argument voids itself here on the basis that your team has six Pokemon as well, and pre-emptivly switching is just as easy for you as your opponent, and as such neither momentum nor pressure is lost, meaning that this argument is barely viable and not a good enough reason, at least in my eyes, to prevent a promotion.
I thought we were talking about how Zekrom should be promoted for its ability to threaten the meta (although I forgot to consider the momentum Volt-Switch gives). If you wanted to talk about team support, maybe you should suggest a core to go with Zekrom. (For example, Klefki + Ditto core and Gira + Clefable would be an example of a core)
Second, I fail to see where I had once mentioned anything about Kyu-W switching into Zekrom or vice versa. I realise I did talk on the Shuca Berry, but I specifically mentioned a neutral Ice Beam, as in one not affected by STAB. Furthermore, I fail to see how your analysis of a Kyu-W vs Zekrom battle actually makes sense, as you do mention both of them starting on a 95 base speed, which already puts the win chance at 50/50, far from hopeless. Then, taking into account that near all Kyu-W are Choice Specs, the Specs/Scarf matchup isn't overly unlikely. Even if Zekrom has a poor chance at beating Kyu-W, which I honestly do not believe, your argument here has little relevance to Zekrom's overall usefullness, as Kyu-W is only one Pokemon.
Zekrom has 90 base speed, and Kyurem has 95. Kyurem will outspeed. Unless I read that part wrong, that statement makes no sense. Also, iirc, there are more Scarf Kyu than Spec Kyu. (I used to use Spec, but I haven't seen anybody else. Or am I really behind the meta? Did the meta evolve so drastically during the two or so days I was off the ladder?) And the fact that Kyurem-W beats Zekrom doesn't have much relevance to Zekrom's overall usefullness, I agree. However, it has relevance over your previous post, where you listed Kyurem-W as one of the mons that Zekrom can beat. It just lowers the validity of your statement, that's all.

My only real argument is that this thing takes too much prediction to be viable, as it's ability to use Dragon STAB is blocked off as long as Xern is in the opponent's team (you screw up one move and you have a GeoXern coming for you), and Groudon + Groundceus would love setting up SR/SD/Rock Polish/Will-O-Wisp or getting a free EQ on your team. The risk is too high, and the reward is too mediocre.
 

chlo

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D to C+?
D to C+?
D to C?
D to B-?
A- to A?

TheHungrySage I am not agreeing on Zekrom promotion based on the facts that what it checks isn't relevant and its flaws severely outweigh its strengths to the point where a B rank is fairly questionable. Unless you can convince me that it is really worthy of a higher rank with a decent argument that doesn't involve Greninja, a Shuca Berry for Kyogre and the omnipresent Kyurem-White.

Megazard I agree that the Latis are fairly untested in AG, and therefore that will probably prevent a rank change any time soon.
 
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D to C+?
D to C+?
D to C?

TheHungrySage I am not agreeing on Zekrom promotion based on the facts that what it checks isn't relevant and its flaws severely outweigh its strengths to the point where a B rank is fairly questionable. Unless you can convince me that it is really worthy of a higher rank with a decent argument that doesn't involve Greninja, a Shuca Berry for Kyogre and the omnipresent Kyurem-White.

Megazard I agree that the Latis are fairly untested in AG, and therefore that will probably prevent a rank change any time soon.
I doubt Quag is more viable than Chansey. And I doubt the difference between Chansey and Blissey is that high. Just put all there of them in C+ or B-. And Clefable should be in whatever these mons go to, too. C+ or whatever.

As for Latis: If they are untested, why even bother ranking them? Their viability is close to 0 if nobody uses it.
 
I doubt Quag is more viable than Chansey. And I doubt the difference between Chansey and Blissey is that high. Just put all there of them in C+ or B-. And Clefable should be in whatever these mons go to, too. C+ or whatever.

As for Latis: If they are untested, why even bother ranking them? Their viability is close to 0 if nobody uses it.
Unranking the Latis is a terrible idea, they definitely have a niche in that they serve as some of the more offensive defoggers in the tier as well as being a reasonably hard check to both Pdon and Pogre.
 
Unranking the Latis is a terrible idea, they definitely have a niche in that they serve as some of the more offensive defoggers in the tier as well as being a reasonably hard check to both Pdon and Pogre.
Well then, go create a team with Lati duo to prove its viability. If nobody can confirm its usefulness, it might as well be unranked.
 
I doubt Quag is more viable than Chansey. And I doubt the difference between Chansey and Blissey is that high. Just put all there of them in C+ or B-. And Clefable should be in whatever these mons go to, too. C+ or whatever.

As for Latis: If they are untested, why even bother ranking them? Their viability is close to 0 if nobody uses it.
How the heck is Chansey more viable than Quag? Chansey has almost 0 offensive presence, setup fodder for physically offensive mons in a meta where almost every team likes to spam physically offensive setup sweepers, completely danked on by Mgar and can quite easily be switched into, even though it walls specially offensive mons (however, almost all CM mons are capable of beating it 1v1 unless ridiculous parahax happens). Not only is it very hard to implement the wish-switch idea in a meta where everything is supposed to hit you like a truck - using it would mean you miss out on one of stoss/heal bell/twave, which effects Chansey's viability entirely. Using soft boiled means that other than heal bell, it provides little support to the team and is outclassed by Clefable/Blissey as a healer. Blissey, on the other hand, brings shame to this world with those defensive stats. It will tank almost nothing vs physically offensive mons and isn't that great special defensively, either (2hko'd by geo xern's fmiss, 2hko'd by +1 P ogre's origin pulse, defeated by rai, 2hko'd +4 CM ceus), and considering how its most brutal offensive move is seismic toss, it'll almost always be setup on. I don't even understand why either of these two fat blobs is viable. They're supposed to be special walls which can be setup and 2hko'd by specially offensive mons with relative ease. Asking them to jumped to B- is just lunacy.

Why Quag is viable - The best e killer check there is.

252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 27.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 331-390 (84 - 98.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

It tanks hits from some of the most viable mons and can run counter to just kill them off. Counter is a brilliant move on quag, too, since setting up on it will make no difference and the hit will come eventually. Even otherwise, it gets toxic-eq-recover to ensure reliable toxic stalling/eq pressure on steel/poison types. It can switch into many physical setup sweepers reliably, while it is almost impossible to break through 1v1 (by anything not specially offensive)

As far as the "unranking the eons because they're rarely used" argument goes, I have said this before and I'll say it again, we're ranking these mons based on their viability, not their usage. There is no other mon which can check both the primals better than the eons. They're okay-ish defoggers, have decent offensive presence and can run healing wish. They're pretty good, but not good enough to be ranked higher - while not being bad enough to be unranked.
 

Finland

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Pair of noms. Just realized I had been looking at the wrong rankings @_@ so I'll have to ponder this ranking before making more. One up, one down.

Groudon C -> B
I'm actually liking this guy over Primal surprisingly often (although definitely not in boosting sets). In comparison to Primal, it firstly doesn't take massive damage from the ubiquitous earthquake/blades (and the occasional Earth Power). This lets it deal massive damage to Groudon P with its own EQ/Blades, and likely beat it one on one if it outspeeds. It can also hold Lum Berry and snag a free KO on Pokemon like Klefki and Darkrai, provided Blades doesn't miss after Lum activates. As more general supporting points, it is an effective Stealth Rock setter and user of Thunder Wave. Obviously Groudon P can do this as well, but Groudon doesn't have to hold the Red Orb and isn't weak to ground. Although sun has dubious viability as a central team style in this metagame, teammates such as Ho-Oh can definitely appreciate Drought not disappearing when the user switches out.

Kyogre-Primal A- -> B+
Rain boosted Origin Pulse is a nuke. That is fairly self explanatory. However, Kyogre-Primal has a suspect defense and unremarkable speed tier, and no way to remedy either of these flaws (in contrast to Groudon-Primal, who has Rock Polish and a typing giving immunity or resistance to many strong specially-attacking types. Also in contrast to Kyogre normal, who can at least carry a Choice Scarf). Kyogre-Prime's weaknesses are excabarated because of the nature of the current meta, which emphasizes physical attacking, high speed, and priority. No matter what set it chooses to run, these two weaknesses leave it vulnerable and extremely easy to revenge kill. Because it and Groudon-P have the same speed, often Kyogre-P cannot even switch on the latter safely, fearing the 2HKO from Precipice Blades.
 

Finland

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Some other, more gut thoughts.

Mega Mewtwo Y down to C+? It's unimpressive stat boots and situational ability make the opportunity cost massive. If you could have multiple megas on a team, I'd probably keep it, but you can't.

Dont see why Blissey should be above D rank, if it is ranked at all. I mean, Chansey has better special defense and less worse physical defense, but it is still so passive and often dead weight I don't know if I would even keep it (Chansey) above D.

Palkia to C maybe
 
How the heck is Chansey more viable than Quag? Chansey has almost 0 offensive presence, setup fodder for physically offensive mons in a meta where almost every team likes to spam physically offensive setup sweepers, completely danked on by Mgar and can quite easily be switched into, even though it walls specially offensive mons (however, almost all CM mons are capable of beating it 1v1 unless ridiculous parahax happens). Not only is it very hard to implement the wish-switch idea in a meta where everything is supposed to hit you like a truck - using it would mean you miss out on one of stoss/heal bell/twave, which effects Chansey's viability entirely. Using soft boiled means that other than heal bell, it provides little support to the team and is outclassed by Clefable/Blissey as a healer. Blissey, on the other hand, brings shame to this world with those defensive stats. It will tank almost nothing vs physically offensive mons and isn't that great special defensively, either (2hko'd by geo xern's fmiss, 2hko'd by +1 P ogre's origin pulse, defeated by rai, 2hko'd +4 CM ceus), and considering how its most brutal offensive move is seismic toss, it'll almost always be setup on. I don't even understand why either of these two fat blobs is viable. They're supposed to be special walls which can be setup and 2hko'd by specially offensive mons with relative ease. Asking them to jumped to B- is just lunacy.

Why Quag is viable - The best e killer check there is.

252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 27.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 331-390 (84 - 98.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

It tanks hits from some of the most viable mons and can run counter to just kill them off. Counter is a brilliant move on quag, too, since setting up on it will make no difference and the hit will come eventually. Even otherwise, it gets toxic-eq-recover to ensure reliable toxic stalling/eq pressure on steel/poison types. It can switch into many physical setup sweepers reliably, while it is almost impossible to break through 1v1 (by anything not specially offensive)

As far as the "unranking the eons because they're rarely used" argument goes, I have said this before and I'll say it again, we're ranking these mons based on their viability, not their usage. There is no other mon which can check both the primals better than the eons. They're okay-ish defoggers, have decent offensive presence and can run healing wish. They're pretty good, but not good enough to be ranked higher - while not being bad enough to be unranked.
Chansey can Wish support, cleric (which is so rare in AG), use Stealth Rock, chip down special attackers Seismic Toss, and etc. "Mgar and can quite easily be switched into" Isn't Blissey a bait to M-Gar too? Doesn't M-Gar 3hko most things? If you switch out Blissey, the switch ins aren't going to appreciate it too much, either. And besides, Chansey is better than Blissey in every battle other than a battle involving M-gar. Unless M-Gar's usage is over 30% or so, Eviolite more than makes up for the utility lost by Shed Shell. Maybe it's not as good as a wall, but Aromatherapy is something almost nothing else can do, while anyone can stall out Arceus.

"I have said this before and I'll say it again, we're ranking these mons based on their viability, not their usage." I just don't get that. If there is a mon that can almost guarantee you a win every game but nobody knows about it, does that mean its viable? Glalie's ranking went up recently, because more people accepted its usefulness, for example. If nobody uses a mon, how would people realize that its useful? Many mons are great on paper, but many are lackluster in practice. I know usage isn't everything, but if the usage of a mon is less than 2% (Latios is around 1.8, and Latias is 1.2 right now), who can even say it actually functions in practice? I used Glalie for over at least 100 battles, so I think I can confirm its validity. However, who here has used the Lati duo enough to do that? I sure haven't. (I tried it a few times, but I gave up immediately because it just didn't work.)
 

MZ

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Chansey can Wish support, cleric (which is so rare in AG), use Stealth Rock, chip down special attackers Seismic Toss, and etc. "Mgar and can quite easily be switched into" Isn't Blissey a bait to M-Gar too? Doesn't M-Gar 3hko most things? If you switch out Blissey, the switch ins aren't going to appreciate it too much, either. And besides, Chansey is better than Blissey in every battle other than a battle involving M-gar. Unless M-Gar's usage is over 30% or so, Eviolite more than makes up for the utility lost by Shed Shell. Maybe it's not as good as a wall, but Aromatherapy is something almost nothing else can do, while anyone can stall out Arceus.

"I have said this before and I'll say it again, we're ranking these mons based on their viability, not their usage." I just don't get that. If there is a mon that can almost guarantee you a win every game but nobody knows about it, does that mean its viable? Glalie's ranking went up recently, because more people accepted its usefulness, for example. If nobody uses a mon, how would people realize that its useful? Many mons are great on paper, but many are lackluster in practice. I know usage isn't everything, but if the usage of a mon is less than 2% (Latios is around 1.8, and Latias is 1.2 right now), who can even say it actually functions in practice? I used Glalie for over at least 100 battles, so I think I can confirm its validity. However, who here has used the Lati duo enough to do that? I sure haven't. (I tried it a few times, but I gave up immediately because it just didn't work.)
Yeah but the point is chansey's extra bulk isn't exactly relevant and auto-losing to teams with gar would kinda suck
Anyway to clarify the usage stuff, ladder isn't good. Ladder uses plenty of dumb stuff. Ladder does not use good things. So having seen things or not seen things more than others doesn't have any impact on viability. The fact that nobody is using the latis should logically have no impact on how good they actually are. If they were broken as fuck then they'd probably see no use, but it's entirely possible for viable things to just fall through the cracks. Ask any tier and they'll tell you their usage stats are terrible with xyz mons seeing way too much/little usage, AG isn't different.
 
Yeah but the point is chansey's extra bulk isn't exactly relevant and auto-losing to teams with gar would kinda suck
Anyway to clarify the usage stuff, ladder isn't good. Ladder uses plenty of dumb stuff. Ladder does not use good things. So having seen things or not seen things more than others doesn't have any impact on viability. The fact that nobody is using the latis should logically have no impact on how good they actually are. If they were broken as fuck then they'd probably see no use, but it's entirely possible for viable things to just fall through the cracks. Ask any tier and they'll tell you their usage stats are terrible with xyz mons seeing way too much/little usage, AG isn't different.
Are you sure that Chansey's added bulk is irrelevant? And how would you prove that a team with Chansey would be an auto loss and that a team with Blissey isn't? Mega-Gar can hit things pretty hard and not much can switch in. (Are you going to keep throwing in your Ho-oh to save your ass from M-Gar? It'll lose to SR. If you use an Arceus, any offensive one would be 3HKO'd by Sludge Bomb, and any defensive is going to hate being Taunted) I don't see how using Shed Shell can really protect your team from M-Gar, when most teams which need Aroma support is probably very likely to be weak to a combination of Taunt or SR.

"The fact that nobody is using the latis should logically have no impact on how good they actually are."

It should. For example, Pokemon X can outspeed and OHKO the entirety of the meta, and only loses to Pokemon Y, who is immune to all of its attacks and is used by 100% of the people in the metagame. Pokemon X's viability will plummet depending on how many people use Y, and a counter to Pokemon Y will increase in viability because if Pokemon Y is dead, is signifies the win for the person using Pokemon X.

The fact that nobody is using Latis SHOW how good they are. Not viable to be seen as much as Arceus and stuff. A Pokemon's viability has been going up and down because the metagame changes depending on what the usage is. Back in the time when having a team of 6 Lum Arceus was the norm, I doubt Darkrai would have been S rank.
 

MZ

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No it shows the ladder is dumb. Back then darkrai was S worthy. This is a poor example. And when I say that chansey teams auto lose I mean if you built a stall team in anything goes around chansey that's good and still works without a chansey then holy fuck you must be god
 
No it shows the ladder is dumb. Back then darkrai was S worthy. This is a poor example. And when I say that chansey teams auto lose I mean if you built a stall team in anything goes around chansey that's good and still works without a chansey then holy fuck you must be god
What AG team built around Blissey works well against M-Gar? And the ladder wasn't dumb for using a team of 6 Arceus, when that was winning them games. And back then, Darkrai was shit.
 
I agree that the Latis are fairly untested in AG, and therefore that will probably prevent a rank change any time soon.
The reason Latis are fairly untested in AG is that nobody wants to use them. They're evidently inferior defoggers as compared to that of any support Arceus. They have poor match-up vs most offensive threats in AG; namely Arceus (CM or SD), Rayquaza-Mega, Darkrai, and Xerneas. The only thing they soft-check is Primal Groudon and the only thing they fully check is Primal Kyogre (which isn't even that relevant). Also let's not neglect the fact that both of their strongest stab, Draco Meteor, is often set up fodder for Arceus. Their positions in the Viability Rankings have always bothered me; I don't know what niche Latias possesses to be in the B- rank when it's so utterly terrible in AG. If a mon is untested and rarely used in the meta, it's not because it's neglected, it's because it is fucking terrible. It's worthless to test something that just sounds horrible theoretically. I would honestly recommend pushing Latis down to D or something but that's something ya'll should discuss. Seriously though B- is too high a ranking for something that's virtually never heard of in AG and shouldn't be considered as on option on your team either.
 
The reason Latis are fairly untested in AG is that nobody wants to use them. They're evidently inferior defoggers as compared to that of any support Arceus. They have poor match-up vs most offensive threats in AG; namely Arceus (CM or SD), Rayquaza-Mega, Darkrai, and Xerneas. The only thing they soft-check is Primal Groudon and the only thing they fully check is Primal Kyogre (which isn't even that relevant). Also let's not neglect the fact that both of their strongest stab, Draco Meteor, is often set up fodder for Arceus. Their positions in the Viability Rankings have always bothered me; I don't know what niche Latias possesses to be in the B- rank when it's so utterly terrible in AG. If a mon is untested and rarely used in the meta, it's not because it's neglected, it's because it is fucking terrible. It's worthless to test something that just sounds horrible theoretically. I would honestly recommend pushing Latis down to D or something but that's something ya'll should discuss. Seriously though B- is too high a ranking for something that's virtually never heard of in AG and shouldn't be considered as on option on your team either.
That's why I hate the current viability rankings.
"I agree that the Latis are fairly untested in AG, and therefore that will probably prevent a rank change any time soon."
That sentence means that if a ranked mon is unused, no matter how good or bad it is, it won't go up or down. If nobody tested the mons before to prove its viability, why bother ranking them at all?
 
I think Tentacruel should be unranked. Obvious is obvious: It is setup bait for almost all physical attackers, (not just pdon; and lum on the top mons can easily solve a accidental scald burn) and hazard stack is just kind of bad because arceus-removal is everywhere (most notably ghost) though it will probably land a poison. I don't think anyone (including me) has really tested it, so if you have something to say my argument will probably just die.
That's why I hate the current viability rankings.
"I agree that the Latis are fairly untested in AG, and therefore that will probably prevent a rank change any time soon."
That sentence means that if a ranked mon is unused, no matter how good or bad it is, it won't go up or down. If nobody tested the mons before to prove its viability, why bother ranking them at all?
I think you make a decent-ish point here. A lot of the mons here are there because they were decent or ok in ubers, but nobody actually uses them here (p sure their usage stats are super low).
 

chlo

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Okay, I admit I was wrong about the Latis. Reading back at what I wrote I feel stupid. Feel free to discuss how far we're deranking them as I'm now convinced that is the case.

Tentacruel is cool, but I haven't seen that either and I don't know why you would use it for a Xerneas check over other things since setting up Toxic Spikes against a +2 GeoXern isn't exactly easy to pull off.

Sage don't hate them that was a one time thing bro :(
 
Okay, I admit I was wrong about the Latis. Reading back at what I wrote I feel stupid. Feel free to discuss how far we're deranking them as I'm now convinced that is the case.

Tentacruel is cool, but I haven't seen that either and I don't know why you would use it for a Xerneas check over other things since setting up Toxic Spikes against a +2 GeoXern isn't exactly easy to pull off.

Sage don't hate them that was a one time thing bro :(
Don't hate on what?
Speaking of hate, I REALLY hate the current viability rankings. Everything beneath B rank seems to have random unviable shit here and there. I've been trying to address this for a while, but could we just get rid of everything beneath B rank and re-add the things we've already discussed before? (We discussed the viability of M-Scizor, M-Gross, M-Mence, Ditto, Groudon, Glalie, Kyurem-White, Jirachi, Terrakion, etc) The rest of the mons on the list seem to be there for the sake of them being there. Has anybody used them before? (I know Pokemon like Brongzong do things, but Greninja sure doesn't.) Also, please explain to me why Alomomola is there, you didn't tell me yet.

Gunner Rohan What's that gif?
 

MZ

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Nobody is arguing the latis are great but I legitimately think Latias is C+, C at worst, and I'm only arguing this so hard because people want it to be unranked or D. Like jesus it's a legit mon, the thing is we don't have that many great draco switchins, just fairyceus, Skarmory, Steelceus, and hernias, and it can definitely be hard to switch into aside from checking don and ogre, outspeeding adamant ray, etc. Latios can go calm mind and give those a much more annoying time switching in although that's about the only reason I'd use it, again unranking seems dumb and D feels low. What I've been saying about usage is that they aren't touched, which their viability may come into play for a bit, but also because people just don't use them regardless of how good they actually perform and I feel like they've been slept on.
What AG team built around Blissey works well against M-Gar?
Well now they haven't lost a theoretically essential mon to said megagar so the game ought to go a lot better for them.
Don't hate on what?
Speaking of hate, I REALLY hate the current viability rankings. Everything beneath B rank seems to have random unviable shit here and there. I've been trying to address this for a while, but could we just get rid of everything beneath B rank and re-add the things we've already discussed before? (We discussed the viability of M-Scizor, M-Gross, M-Mence, Ditto, Groudon, Glalie, Kyurem-White, Jirachi, Terrakion, etc) The rest of the mons on the list seem to be there for the sake of them being there. Has anybody used them before? (I know Pokemon like Brongzong do things, but Greninja sure doesn't.)
Then what would you do man? I'm not gonna lie and say all of the placing are perfect but I really only see a few issues and you already pointed out one in Greninja. What sort of changes would you make? To be honest you probably have the most posts in this thread and then 50% of the other stuff is just people responding to these ridiculous questions and nominations and awful responses which are just getting really old, if you could do your own research or ask somebody else outside of this thread that would keep down stupid clutter by a ton, but anyway I also don't see any track record to suggest that you should be reorganizing our lower ranks. So we get it, you don't like them, make some quick nominations and wait for stuff to happen. And for an example of what I mean, just look down.
Also, please explain to me why Alomomola is there, you didn't tell me yet.
Alomomola is a good check to a ton of physical shit and wishpasses and all that jazz, you could just check out the ubers analysis for a basic rundown of what it does in a somewhat similar metagame since it's the same stuff.
Gunner Rohan What's that gif?
He's saying hazard stack isn't bad (it rly isn't). Read the lips.
edit: ....I couldve just ignored all the stupidity and let hunter answer. fml
 
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"Mgar and can quite easily be switched into" Isn't Blissey a bait to M-Gar too? Doesn't M-Gar 3hko most things? If you switch out Blissey, the switch ins aren't going to appreciate it too much, either.
Lolwut? Dude, chansey dies to mgar, period. It literally does 0 and you lose your heal bell user/sp def wall instantly. It's not about how Blissey's switch can cause trouble for the mon switching in, it is about how Blissey *can live* when mgar switches in. According to the situation of the game (and this is IF mgar guarantees at least one kill on your team), you can sack any mon which isn't helping in the matchup, switch into a pursuit trapper, predict a move and switch accordingly or just sack Blissey - the point being that you have options.

And moreover, I wasn't saying anywhere that Blissey outclasses Chansey. Although, there could be an argument for that, because of mgar gaining more recognition on the ladder. My point is that they're both dull with almost no offensive presence. They're decent in Ubers because teams don't spam SD/DD like crazy. I'd at least get it if they were brilliant specially defensive walls and walled all specials mons. Almost every CM user beats them, xerns can beat them, darkrai/gar beats them (with almost no competition). There is almost no legitimate threat that they can wall with ease other than swagkey or supportceus.


Maybe it's not as good as a wall, but Aromatherapy is something almost nothing else can do, while anyone can stall out Arceus.
Clef and xern both outclass chansey as a heal bell user. Blissey is just about as bad. And for fuck's sake, Arceus is not the only physically offensive mon in AG.

"I have said this before and I'll say it again, we're ranking these mons based on their viability, not their usage." I just don't get that. If there is a mon that can almost guarantee you a win every game but nobody knows about it, does that mean its viable? Glalie's ranking went up recently, because more people accepted its usefulness, for example. If nobody uses a mon, how would people realize that its useful? Many mons are great on paper, but many are lackluster in practice. I know usage isn't everything, but if the usage of a mon is less than 2% (Latios is around 1.8, and Latias is 1.2 right now), who can even say it actually functions in practice? I used Glalie for over at least 100 battles, so I think I can confirm its validity. However, who here has used the Lati duo enough to do that? I sure haven't. (I tried it a few times, but I gave up immediately because it just didn't work.)
See, the point that you're trying to make (a valid point) is that low usage could usually point towards mediocre viability. But then, there's stuff like Alolomola, wobbuffet, Poisonceus etc, which are almost never seen on the ladder. The reason for that is because there are always going to be things that do their job better. It doesn't necessarily point to them being awful. I nommed the eons for C-/D, because there are things that do their job way better. But then again, if you're looking for a defogger that checks the primals and has decent offensive presence (which isn't that far fetched of a thought, since p dons are common setters), the eons are viable. And also, the reason why they're bad is because of their physical frailty - not much different from a Blissey or Amoonguss. They can be built around, it's too harsh to ask them to be unranked.
 

Finland

choo choo i am train
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Some more noms. I must admit i haven't made much nomming of late, so these may not be perfect, but I'll give it my best.

Arceus-Rock: A- -> B+ or B
What benefit really does Arceus-Rock have that merits it to be in the A tier? What exactly are you hitting with that rock typing, besides Ho oh and Lugia? Rayquaza on the switch before it Mega Evolves? Something you do get is a typing weak to Ground, Water, and Fighting. And while it does resist Dragon Ascent Fire Punch/etc. and Extremespeed, if any of the Pokemon that learn these moves have a boost (or even if they don't, in the case of Groudon P), they can smack it with Earthquake for massive damage. And you also resist... Poison. Maybe I'm missing something, but from theory and experience playing against it, I really don't see it.

I think I've already covered this so I won't be too detailed, but I'd also love to see Kyogre P A- -> B and Groudon C -> B-

Drifblim: C- -> C or C+
Evasion passing is far from my favorite strategy. But it does have some viability, and besides Smeargle (who has better things to do), Drifblim is literally the only Pokemon (besides Drifloon, lol), that can do it. I think this relevant uniqueness affords it a rise or two.
Arceus-Bug: D -> Unranked
If Arceus-Psychic isn't on here, I don't see why this bugger (pun possibly intended) is. It's not as if he can outspeed Darkrai or Mewtwo, the primary things that Bug coverage is useful for. Anything he can do, Genesect or another Arceus forme can do far better.
Clefable: D -> C- through C+
Unaware, an interesting movepool, a slight offensive presence, and good typing make Clefable merit some sort of rise, out of the Forretress and Tentacruel lowly rank of D.

Tyranitar: C+ -> C-/D+
Why is he C+? He's slow and lacking in terribly unique attributes besides Sand, which is kinda cool but lacks Pokemon to abuse it properly and of course is shut down by the Hoenn trio. Kind of hard for me to make a huge case to drop it since I have frankly no idea why he is near as high as he is; if somebody disagrees, i may be able to articulate more.
 
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