Ladder Anything Goes

From what I gather, there are three types of teams on this ladder:

1) The "Win" Team. This one uses Mega Rayquaza and a bunch of Ubers, like Primal Groudon in particular, and expects this to just be Ubers with M-Ray thrown in. Its goal is to get the opponent's HP to 0 and win the game.

2) The "Annoy" Team, which doesn't actually try to win, but just forces the opponent to deal with so much crap that they just want to give up. It frequently abuses SwagPlay and occasionally Moody. Six Klefki is the most common.

3) The "Stop Annoy" Team, who is set out to counter the above, with things like Numel and Mega Diancie. It doesn't want to put up with the Annoy Team's shenanigans, but it's generally inferior to the Win Team.

These three teams effectively play RPS with one another. However, due to the mechanics of how confusion works, Win can still beat Annoy ~50% of the time, provided that the player is patient enough.
 
From what I gather, there are three types of teams on this ladder:

1) The "Win" Team. This one uses Mega Rayquaza and a bunch of Ubers, like Primal Groudon in particular, and expects this to just be Ubers with M-Ray thrown in. Its goal is to get the opponent's HP to 0 and win the game.

2) The "Annoy" Team, which doesn't actually try to win, but just forces the opponent to deal with so much crap that they just want to give up. It frequently abuses SwagPlay and occasionally Moody. Six Klefki is the most common.

3) The "Stop Annoy" Team, who is set out to counter the above, with things like Numel and Mega Diancie. It doesn't want to put up with the Annoy Team's shenanigans, but it's generally inferior to the Win Team.

These three teams effectively play RPS with one another. However, due to the mechanics of how confusion works, Win can still beat Annoy ~50% of the time, provided that the player is patient enough.
That sounds like a really poor Annoy team in that case. Surely they can do better than that, especially in their "best" matchup?
 
A well-built "annoy" team doesn't run 6 annoyers, but just 2 or 3 whose job is softening the opposing team until the doors are open for some extremely powerful late-game sweep (usually M-Ray) to clean house. They may also run a "backup plan" like ScarfDitto if something goes wrong. They're essentially balanced teams that rely on hax rather than bulk.
When SwagPlay was allowed in OU the best team archetype was Klefki, Thundurus-I, Sableye, Ditto, Conkeldurr and Mega Lucario/Pinsir/CharizardX. Replace the latter two with PDon and Mega Ray and you have the AG version of said team.

Stacking the same species of Pokemon only compounds the weaknesses of your team. You don't need 6 rocks to beat 6 scissors, you only need one. Even running 6 Arceus is far from optimal, and in fact I'd say it's a "noob" team archetype. Species Clause has always been a big red herring in competitive battling, since there is really nothing inherently broken or uncompetitive in using 2 or more of the same pokemon. After all aren't "BirdSpam" and "DragMag" teams attempts to partially bypass this clause? They're not that big of a deal honestly, sure they're potentially good archetypes but far from broken. SC is one of those clauses we take from granted even though until now nobody has ever bothered to explore the consequences of a metagame without it. We finally get to do so in AG and I'm extremely curious about how this will turn out.
 
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Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
There are some pokemon that counter well klefky in a more viable way than numel
You could try Mega Sableye or Mega Diancie, but teams with multiple Klefki might carry Foul Play/Flash Cannon respectively to deal with these threats. I'm not sure how common these coverage moves are on Klefki in AG, but other than that, these two completely destroy Klefki.
 
I think a well built team doesn't need more than 3 klefki,i'm using a baton pass that's working quite well,using smeargle to boost,espeon because magic bounce and stored power hand roar vaporeon to deal with other bp
 
5 Klefkis running slightly varied sets and Mega Absol to deal specifically with Mega Diancie has been very funny and successful (I have no soul).

Oddly enough, I have to run Hidden Power Water on one of my Klefkis because I have faced a few cheeky players who run Choice Specs Numel.

I have two little suggestions to add: to Swagkey users, Timid nature and 0 Attack IVs is your best friend. Klefki is almost never going to take a hit and live unless it resists it, so dumping 252 EVs into speed will almost never hurt you. Outrunning other Klefkis and having the edge after a Thunder Wave makes you that much more annoying. To those tired of Keyspam: if you have room for it, Safeguard is absolutely amazing (or terrifying if you are like me and now have five worthless keys). Again, these are just little suggestions drawn from some observations of this lovely new free-for-all.
 
more replays:

UNBAN FUNBRO vs. joshgaming4 - tbh, I've been seeing a lot of people run mega diance, but I've not once seen it used effectively. obviously, people fancy it as a counter to klefki, but you're still using up your mega slot on something that's not m-ray, and as you see here, m-ray can just use EQ for coverage if they so choose

Mii Fighter vs. Maika Rush - a BP chain, as it turns out, only gets worse to deal with once moody comes into play. poor maika couldn't even justify switching to ditto as a good option, as moody gave mii fighter's accuracy to be lower, stacking with the evasion clause

DemonKingGanondorf vs. joshgaming4 - whoops, more joshgaming4, I swear that's by accident. I do believe DKG is BladeofEvil'sBane's alt account, though that's just an assumption from the fact that this is just a modified version of BoEB's current phaser team, nicknames and all. a damn good team, uses a pocket arceus-fairy and shows how scary lugia is in a metagame where so many plays are based off of setting up

if any of y'all know NXC, and the user(s?) "SJB and IU" and "IU and SJB", y'all should ask them to save replays more often. it's a bit of a nuisance that three of the top five in the ladder currently have little to no replays on them showing their effectiveness

SC is one of those clauses we take from granted even though until now nobody has ever bothered to explore the consequences of a metagame without it. We finally get to do so in AG and I'm extremely curious about how this will turn out.
the most obvious consequence is the safety in having multiple of the same pokemon set, allowing for more loose decisions. one arceus-normal might not be able to stuff out a m-ray, but two can deal with him with extremespeeds just fine. this also gives klefki the most important buff ever; by having two on your team, lum berry is no longer an immediate hard counter, as you get more than enough turns to set up swagger and twave.
 
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low ldr rating explained by testing and ag ladder is cancer, replays are just basic demonstration, so don't say shitty opponent, no need to quote

This tier is ridiculous and super hectic at the moment. Specialized checks through Pokemon or moves are needed to climb tho ladder or you are screwed by a certain archetypes. I want to do an analysis of what I see abusable through experience and watching other people use it.

Perish Song as shrang said is an amazing move right now. In fact, its distribution is limited, but the fact it can be used by a Arceus and Mega Gengar makes it less of a problem. Pulling Baton Pass chains apart (Haze Darkrai is really useful for is too) is ridiculous, when Moody Smeargle is such a huge threat. Perish Song also allows you to stop set-up sweepers. In fact, Perish Song Gengar completely craps on SwagPlay teams which infect the ladder like crazy and are everywhere. It is not so hard to add Taunt to your team in AG when it is like mandatory, and if you get Mega Gengar in with a Taunted Liepard or Klefki, then you can Perish Song your way through SwagPlay. Shadow Ball | Sludge Wave | Pain Split | Perish Song is the most common set I see and have seen and being able to check Baton Pass chains and SwagPlay makes it an amazing choice at the moment. SubCM Dark and Fairy Arceus are immediate 6-0 killers versus SwagPlay especially if using a Lum Berry (ok these seem super specific but AG is overcentralized af so don't quote me about this I know). There is also like zero opportunity cost using a dedicated Arceus because of species clause being banished here.

Alright, I just wanted to talk about how cool Perish Song is, so I will do a break down of what playstyles and Pokemon are prominent, starting with the latter.

Alright, Mega Rayquaza is the best 'mon in the whole game and there is a reason why: Dragon Ascent coming from Base 180 Atk and the ability to hold an item which throws it off the chart. Nothing can switch in safely and it absolutely wrecks after a Dragon Dance or Swords Dance under its belt. Delta Stream gives it easy set up oppurtunities, and being able to do it on Primal Groudon without Dragon Claw is ridiculous, while giving a resistance to Electric setting up on Choice-locked Zekrom and CM Electric Arceus. It just utterly destroys every team unless your opponent is carrying obscure things like Shuca Berry Rhyperior, Counter Skarmory, etc. which are super easy to play around or wear down. This is just one of the few reasons to prove how over centralizing it is and every team needs a way to "deal" (note I out it quotations) with it or they are swept instantly.

Darkrai hit the jackpot in the AG metagame with the absence of Sleep Clause. It can easily set-up on sleep induced targets and wreck havoc. It can tank priority which adds to the fact it can do stuff to non-Lum Berry Arceus...and being able to put multiple 'mons to this condition makes it one of the deadliest threats in the metagame. Dark Pulse has extraordinary coverage if paired with Sludge Bomb or Thunder. Nasty Plot itself is not even mandatory, so you can run both coverage moves (or even Haze to stop BP chains) because Life Orb Dark Pulses hit extremely hard especially backed up by unlimited sleep and compounding Nightmare damage making incredibly hard to stop and another incredibly centralizing 'mon.

Moody Smeargle is deadly on mono-Pass and Baton Pass chains. The ability to set up while stalling for your desired boost makes it an incredibly hard 'mon to play around especially if Focus Sash is still intact. On full chains, it makes Espeon in to the most deadly 'min in the tier - completely destroying everything. Haze Darkrai has risen in usage due this fact along with Perish Song Arceus and Mega Gengar. Moody Glalie is another powerful 'mon. I used SubSD Pass Scolipede and gave a +2 / +4 boost to Glalie, stalled a turn with Protect for Moody boosts and completely shitted on my opponent after MEvo. Mega Glalie is really a huge threat to prepare for. I did a similar combination with GeoPass Smeargle into Octillery and it would simply SPAM it's Water STAB while getting boosts along the way making it nigh impossible to stop. Moody + Baton Pass is an effective playstyle.

BP Chain
Scolipede + Moody Mega Glalie (v. shitty team, but this is basic demonstration of how good it is)

Alright, so playing with the Species Clause, I realized 5 Arceus + 1 Mega Gengar is a playstyle everyone needs to be cautious of if they can, and it is so powerful in terms on brute force. You power past your checks and Mega Gengar traps them and eliminates and you SPAM EKiller until your opponent goes in to oblivion. Another example of this is 5 Rayquaza + 1 Mega Rayquaza which also near impossible to stop. Another species clause abuse army is 4 Geomancy Xerneas + 1 Choice Scarf Xerneas + 1 MegaMixRay which breaks past all of the things Xerneas can't set up on along with different coverage on each Xerneas allowing you to demolish the opponent. Species Clause SPAM is that good.

5 Rayquaza + 1 Mega Rayquaza (might have to fix replay l8r)

SwagPlay is a crappy playstyle to be honest. It is a luck based thing where you only win like half of the time and you are completely crapped on by Numel which I actually see on HO teams and people are willing to give up a slot because Mega Rayquaza by itself can provide you a nigh-unstoppable win condition, but what is the pain? SwagPlay. It is really unreliable when climbing the ladder. There are much better options for playstyles when climbing the ladder.

With OHKO moves allowed, I see that people are interested in using Coil Moody Smeargle to stall for Accuracy / Evasion boosts and then pass to Zoom Lens Bisharp / whatever because your OHKO move should atleast have 70% accuracy and your coverage can help avoid PP crap. OHKO moves on random stuff like Primal Kyogre is something you see just to troll your opponent. OHKO clause wasn't as good as I thought because it is either luck based or you have to stall for a long time to get boosts and I even then, I would pass to Octillery to just destroy the living crap out of everything, and the process is much faster. I am pretty sure everyone here is time conservative.

No Evasion Clause pisses me off, but it is AG. We will find ways to deal with all these playstyles in the future, but as the metagame "stabilizes", we should get a good glimpse of how high level AG is. And when I mean by stabilize, I mean that the metagame will see more of X move of 'mon to deal with a certain playstyle.

These were my thoughts of AG right now. It is a fun tier and I am willing to help with this tier. It is pretty cool and I am glad it was made to make Ubers 10x more healthy. Anyways, this tier is really like preparing for as much as you can, but this was my analysis of what I see.
 
random thoughts after playing (I'm 6-0 atm):

- Darkrai rapes teams that are unprepared for it. Sub, Dark Void, Dark Pulse and Taunt (BP and/or Sleep Talk)/Sludge Bomb/Nasty Plot is $$$.
- Hazards are better than Ubers because users are so overprepared against niche stuff that they usually don't have time/slot for Defog or a spinner. Simple Toxic Spikes (or Spikes if against a Klefki team) paired with lefties Skymin can do wonders as well.
- Moody can still win games on its own. I've been using regular Glalie with Leftovers having Ice Beam, Taunt, Sub, Protect. It takes out 3 pokes at least every game.
- People might consider using at least one 100% accurate move on one of your pokes. Dunno Aura Sphere, Roar, Thunder, Aerial Ace, idc just don't complain if Double Team Umbreon sweeps your team.

Overall it has been a very fun experience although almost all of my opponents resorted to homophobic slur before raging lol
 
random thoughts after playing (I'm 6-0 atm):
- Moody can still win games on its own. I've been using regular Glalie with Leftovers having Ice Beam, Taunt, Sub, Protect. It takes out 3 pokes at least every game.
Frost Breath is a stronger attacking move on Glalie, since it ignores SpD boosts from the opponent and therefore gives you the edge in the Moody Mirror/Baton Pass team.
 
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With OHKO moves allowed, I see that people are interested in using Coil Moody Smeargle to stall for Accuracy / Evasion boosts and then pass to Zoom Lens Bisharp / whatever because your OHKO move should atleast have 70% accuracy and your coverage can help avoid PP crap.
OHKO moves are not affected by accuracy and evasions boost/penalties.
 
So here's a nice Klefki/SwagPlay counter for those that don't want to use up the Mega Slot on Mega Diancie or Mega Sableye.

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Morning Sun
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Probably doesn't have the most optimal EV spread but that's just what I slapped on my team and called it a day.
I would also reduce its Atk IVs to 0 in order to minimize the damage you take from Foul Play.
 
An important fact that people seem to overlook is that a pokemon's defensive type is less important in this metagame.
How so? In tiers where all-out offensive teams are more common, such as OU and Ubers, it's a safe assumption to say that on average each team will carry on average ~15 direct attacks (though lately stall is a lot more popular in OU).
On the other hand, since AG is all about weird gimmicks and strategies that take longer than one turn to set up, there is less room for offensives moves. A prime example is the common BP chain team which usually has room for less than 6 offensive moves and they're extremely predictable to boot! If we assume that the average AG team carries ~10 offensive moves then it's less probable that you'll run into a move that is SE against your mon of choice. In fact many teams don't even have room for Stealth Rock, though I expect them to become more common on the higher parts of the ladder.

Ice types in particular greatly benefit from this, since they don't have to worry about getting hit for SE damage by everything and their mom and most of them have Sheer Cold to abuse.
Speaking of ice types and Sheer Cold, an argument against OHKO moves' brokeness when they got tested in ubers in Gen 5 was that their best abuser, Articuno, has a terrible defensive type and therefore it wouldn't have a significant impact on the tier.
Articuno's Mind Reader+Sheer Cold combo in practice translates into a phazing move with a 30% chance to KO since nobody in their right mind would stay in after getting hit with Mind Reader. With some speed support (in the form of Sticky Web or BP'd Speed Boosts) and Substitute this can really wreck havoc against unpreparaded teams (Defense and evasion boosts are nice but not mandatory), especially BP chains. The chance of KO'ing at least an opposing mon gets higher with each use and in fact it's close to 100% after 8 uses.
The only ways to bypass this are Sturdy, really strong priority given Articuno's bulk and Prankster.
Scolipede is a fantastic team mate for Articuno since it can pass speed/defense/evasion boosts and can deply entry hazards so even if Sheer Cold doesn't hit the opponent will be punished for switching out.

For the record, here are the chances of an OHKO move hitting at least once with each use:
1 use: 30%
2 uses: 51%
3 uses: 65%
4 uses: 75%
5 uses: 83%
6 uses: 88%
7 uses: 91%
8 uses: 94%
 
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>nosleepclause
Darkrai won, GG, Sorry M-Ray, Darkrai wins.
M-Darkrai just needs to happen.

I love bringing Pokemon that have no place here into AG, and then everyone freaks out because they don't know why I brought them.
Mega Beedrill does suprsingly well in AG.
I also killed Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza with a Pikachu.
Totally proud of myself.
 
>nosleepclause
Darkrai won, GG, Sorry M-Ray, Darkrai wins.
M-Darkrai just needs to happen.

I love bringing Pokemon that have no place here into AG, and then everyone freaks out because they don't know why I brought them.
Mega Beedrill does suprsingly well in AG.
I also killed Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza with a Pikachu.
Totally proud of myself.
What's the best way to use Darkrai with unrestricted Dark Void? Or Breloom, Venusaur, or Smeargle for that matter?

I've never seen a boosting Darkrai and only a subbing Breloom.

I love this new tier, will it get a forum? I did a 360 booty shake when I realized I could run a six Rayquaza team.
 
I haven't found Sleep spamming that effective in AG because everybody is overprepared for status abuse from Prankster users.
 
And the thing is most things that can run lum berry (i.e excluding stuff like Primal Groudon, Giratina O), do run lum berry (for now at least). I'm thinking of creating a team with toxic spikes and perish song. For one, it will instantly get rid of lum berry on pokemon when they switch in. Two, it will put a timer on baton pass teams (and make the match less lengthy), since most of their members are grounded. Of course, I would need to find an opportunity to outplay them baton passing to Espeon or using magic coat on Smeargle. As long as the perish song user is untaunted, they will be forced to switch to get poisoned.
 

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