Real talk, y'all need to stop using shit like Numel and custom Claydols just to stop Klefki. CM Fairyceus is a solid check to SwagPlay and it isn't completely useless outside of that role. If you really want a Klefki hard counter use Unaware Clefable. Unaware ignores your Attack boosts when you get hit by Foul Play so max Def Clefable literally takes 5% from +6 Foul Play. It can also defeat Ekiller 1-on-1 (LO ESpeed does 38.8 - 46.4%) and beat Moody/Baton Pass with CM.
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WECAMEASROMANS
Banned deucer.
Hai. I'd like to bring up the endless battle clause, which I believe to be extremely stupid and unfair and thus the clause should also be removed from AG.
In the actual catridge games (which AG is supposed to simulate 100% with no clauses), there is no endless battle clause. Because it doesn't even exist in the actual games, there is no reason to make it a rule in AG.
Instead, in the games, more specifically, in *real wifi battles* this is managed by something else. In real wifi battles, if a battle goes over an hour, the match is stopped and the winner is based on the person who has the most health % remaining in all of their pokemon. I don't see why AG can't just follow this rule, since it applies to the actual games as well.
REMOVE ENDLESS BATTLE CLAUSE IN AG, AND REPLACE IT WITH THE ONE HOUR TIME LIMIT
In the actual catridge games (which AG is supposed to simulate 100% with no clauses), there is no endless battle clause. Because it doesn't even exist in the actual games, there is no reason to make it a rule in AG.
Instead, in the games, more specifically, in *real wifi battles* this is managed by something else. In real wifi battles, if a battle goes over an hour, the match is stopped and the winner is based on the person who has the most health % remaining in all of their pokemon. I don't see why AG can't just follow this rule, since it applies to the actual games as well.
REMOVE ENDLESS BATTLE CLAUSE IN AG, AND REPLACE IT WITH THE ONE HOUR TIME LIMIT
The rule is there because 'Endless Battles' serve only to waste people's time. Almost nobody is going to want to get on board with allowing people to intentionally draw out matches for an hour for no good reason other than people's right to troll.
I've seen nothing about AG being "supposed" to simulate cartridge games. And certainly, it's ridiculous to call it "unfair" when the clause only stops behavior that's not even trying to win in the first place.
That's not to say the one-hour time limit is necessarily a bad alternative; it's certainly simpler. But an hour is a long time.
WECAMEASROMANS
Banned deucer.
if you read my post, you would realize that theres another option which doesn't allow you to simply "waste people's times".
place a one hour time limit, person with the most health % wins.
tell me why we cant do that instead of having a shit clause that doesnt exist in the actual games again?
place a one hour time limit, person with the most health % wins.
tell me why we cant do that instead of having a shit clause that doesnt exist in the actual games again?
Endless Battle Clause is based on a Game Freak precedent. In Generation III, Game Freak banned Wobbuffet from holding Leftovers because Leftovers Wobbuffet vs. Leftovers Wobbuffet produced an endless battle. This also led, arguably, to the change in Struggle recoil from standard recoil to 25% of max HP. Just because the modern endless battle is more sophisticated doesn't mean Smogon can't make a targeted ban based on the only one Game Freak ever made. And, quite frankly, the point of Endless Battle Clause is to prevent trolls from wasting massive amounts of people's time, and your approach doesn't do that. An hour per battle with a random troll is still a massive amount of people's time.
And AG is not meant to simulate the actual cartridge games. AG is intended to be a game without any clauses limiting your methods of victory. Endless Battles do not allow you to win, by definition. Like the Wobbuffet Leftovers ban, the current ban on Leppa Berry + Item Recovery affects a few legitimate strategies, but it is the best way to prevent the undesired outcome and is completely consistent with the purpose of Anything Goes.
If you're not in the mood to read a long paragraph, here's the fundamental concept behind all of it:
Nobody wants to fight your or anyone else's Funbro; stop arguing for it. It's not a legitimate strategy because it does nothing that lets it actually win. And having normal people waiting an hour for the timer to confirm that they did, in fact, play better before the stupidity set in is a victory for the trolls.
So far I have seen 3 type of teams:
Ubers based teams: The ones who play like its Ubers with Mega Ray (usually, Hyper Offensive style). Rarely they break any clause but Specie clause (and specially with Arceus)
Combo based teams: The ones who build their team arround the lack of a specific clause. I think the most popular ones are build arround Klefki, Darkrai, Moody and Baton Pass.
Mixed teams: A mix between 1) and 2), the ones who have some way to abuse the lack of a specific clause but having several Hyper Offensive Uber-tier mons.
Im a fan of Combo teams myself so thats what I have been playing the most (I toyed arround Mixed teams tho). Im not sure what type of teams will lead the metagame yet.
Btw, this is what Im currently playing: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/anythinggoes-188974416
3 Baton Pass Minimize Drifblim
2 Ingrain Acupressure Moody Smeargle
1 Unawear Bibarel
The plan is to get some Minimize boots on a Drifblim, Pass to a Smeargle, Ingrain and Acuppresure until Im maxed, then Pass into Unawear Bibarel for the sweep.
Ubers based teams: The ones who play like its Ubers with Mega Ray (usually, Hyper Offensive style). Rarely they break any clause but Specie clause (and specially with Arceus)
Combo based teams: The ones who build their team arround the lack of a specific clause. I think the most popular ones are build arround Klefki, Darkrai, Moody and Baton Pass.
Mixed teams: A mix between 1) and 2), the ones who have some way to abuse the lack of a specific clause but having several Hyper Offensive Uber-tier mons.
Im a fan of Combo teams myself so thats what I have been playing the most (I toyed arround Mixed teams tho). Im not sure what type of teams will lead the metagame yet.
Btw, this is what Im currently playing: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/anythinggoes-188974416
3 Baton Pass Minimize Drifblim
2 Ingrain Acupressure Moody Smeargle
1 Unawear Bibarel
The plan is to get some Minimize boots on a Drifblim, Pass to a Smeargle, Ingrain and Acuppresure until Im maxed, then Pass into Unawear Bibarel for the sweep.
Neither he nor I use Funbro and we still want it implemented, because it's correct. Or rather, more correct. What is the point of Anything Goes when you can't use anything you want to use that adheres to ingame mechanics? You said it yourself, that things that seek to force 'Endless Battles' do not mean to win. If that is the case, then the Funbro or whatever will lose - in at least an hour. You speak of wasting people's time and then you say nothing of Stall teams without the use of a timer. I've had well over 20 matches throughout my time playing XY go over an hour and even had one that lasted close to 3. Isn't that worse?
Both of us that responded acknowledged the one hour time limit; it's just that it's still too damn long to have to spend fighting a strategy that has no intention of winning.
To expound on what TFL said, using a stall team easily lasts longer than an hour. I've personally had games over 2 hours. However, like Funbro, the stall player could have no way to win a battle (or even an intention to), yet continue to stall it out for hours before they run out of PP. How is this worse than Funbro with an hour limit?
There is a difference. Stall teams have a goal--to win by having your Pokémon wear down the opponent's Pokémon via residual damage from hazards, Seismic Toss, etc. You can beat a stall team at any point in the battle, and they will usually play their turns at a standard pace because they're still playing the same game. Endless Battlers aren't trying to wear people down through hazards, get their opponents to Struggle to death, or otherwise actually win. They're just there to get their opponents as annoyed as possible before eventually either forfeiting (if they get bored) or being forfeit to. I see no reason to not HAVE the hour time limit--it does deal with the annoyance of very long battles that aren't endless--but Endless Battle Clause greatly reduces the proportion of battles that would hit it.
WECAMEASROMANS
Banned deucer.
yes, but if we were to enforce the one hour time limit policy, this would also solve the problem of wasting time by forcing endless battles. and its closer to the actual game. you can easily replace endless battle clause with the one hour time limit. so either way, you cant abuse funbro, so i dont see what all the concern is about.
If you can't abuse anything, then its not anything goes, and thus the whole thing should be renamed.
If you can't abuse anything, then its not anything goes, and thus the whole thing should be renamed.
Friendly reminder that PS isn't a perfect simulation of the games merely because we can see the exact amount of damage an attack deals in percentage. If your reason behind allowing FunBro is because it's possible in the actual games, then you're out of luck.
Let me put this as bluntly as possible:
I am not wasting a fucking hour to see the result of me technically winning through such a retarded strategy.
I mean you have to be fucking kidding me. Endless Battle Clause isn't even a battle of skill nor luck really. It is practically "how fast can I make an opponent surrender due to extreme boredom."
I mean Im all for stall because it is a game more like chess. Endless Battle assumes you havw Mega Sableye in the lead or something with Taunt to immediately shut down.
Some of you are saying you are against the removal of Endless Battle Clause, because you don't want to waste an hour. Why are you acting like Funbro/other methods are a surefire thing? You bring in a counter, something it can't just recover spam to infinity against, and then attack it. It's that easy. I came across Funbro when it was a thing on the OU ladder quite a few times. It literally only got me the first time...
I disagree that stall is always different from Funbro. I've experienced many times where I had won the game, but they could stall for a long time before their last mon was actually KOd.
Here is a classic example: a 430 turn battle of Stall vs Stall with Ajwf and Me. http://pastebin.com/kaJpXeBs
I'll quote from it:
"
Turn 366
Yuttt.lose: but his Defogger is dea[d]
AjTheEpic: If I had rocks...
Yuttt.lose: and I have SR up
Yuttt.lose: so I win
"
Basically what happened is his defogger (mandibuzz) was dead (>25% hp and rocks were up). My SRer (heatran) had still something like 2 pp left for that move, so I got rocks up. AJ's SRer (heatran again) had died on turn 213. So nearly 200 turns before the game actually finished, I had won. There was nothing Aj could do to in that scenario (besides hope for me to be a complete idiot and sack all my pokemon or something). However, he was able to drag out the battle for another hour or two before I actually KOd all 6 of his pokemon.
You might point out that I could've choked even though I won, but that isn't different from Funbro forgetting to use recycle or something.
Another point is that sure, offense can probably avoid this situation against stall most of the time, but seriously, who gets trapped by funbro .-.
Lol why did he waste that much time playing if he knew he lost :/
"Never give up - never surrender!"
This could be easily sorted out if the relevant people wanted.
In fact, VGC formats don't show exact percentage in PS!, but display percentage ranges based on displayed pixels as we are supposed to.
While playing AG you're wasting your breath to point out Rage Quits. It's like Pointing out how many Germans you see walking around in Germany. Instead we should all make a big deal out of "Patience Stays"
yeah, clef is cool. it also beats darkrai lacking sludge wave if you go resttalk, but that weakens you vs. ekiller. clef loses hard to m-gar also but i rarely see that so it's not such a big deal
For what its worth, the hour time limit is based on a game where move animations take a lot longer to complete. The number that you could take within an hour on PS would be far more than the number of turns you could do in cartridge. As such, even if PS was cartridge accurate on this, you would have far, far less than a real life hour before your timer ran out.
With that said, Endless Battle Clause makes a ton of sense and should not go anywhere. Trying to create an endless battle is trying to create a win condition outside of those provided by the game itself. To use a metaphor that others have already on this topic, it would be akin to disconnecting your opponents controller in any sort of action/fighting/racing game. Sure, it is possible, and sure it can win you the game. That doesn't make it a legitimate part of the game that we should tolerate.
With that said, Endless Battle Clause makes a ton of sense and should not go anywhere. Trying to create an endless battle is trying to create a win condition outside of those provided by the game itself. To use a metaphor that others have already on this topic, it would be akin to disconnecting your opponents controller in any sort of action/fighting/racing game. Sure, it is possible, and sure it can win you the game. That doesn't make it a legitimate part of the game that we should tolerate.
Not that I am against Endless Battle Clause, but I do see where people who argue against it are coming from, in the context of Anything Goes.
I am sure that this has been discussed before, but there are legitimate strategies that involve Leppa Berry + Recycle, aren't there? It may actually be used to wear down the opponent's PP, even if through a very tedious process, akin to other stall tactics that are allowed in AG such as Evasion boosts (especially with Pressure). The goal is to wear down the opponent team and let them Struggle to death, one by one. In the end, I can see how the strategy can be used to win, and hence within the spirit of the game.
Endless Battle happens only when the user decides to be an ass and thinks it's a good idea to waste both their and the opponent's time by healing a Struggling Pokemon they should have let faint already. I find such people abhorrent, especially if they aim to make their opponents surrender, as they could have easily achieved that if they let the opponent's Pokemon fall 100~ turns ago without forcing the boredom onto people who play to have fun.
In a perfect world, an online battle simulator can electrocute such dicks in front of their computers whenever they maliciously press that Heal Pulse button. Absent such technology, we can only implement a complex rule to prevent or reduce such occurrences. If I recall correctly, I think Smogon tried their best to make the ban as non-intrusive as possible, only to be beaten by the creative assholes who always found their way to bypass more complex bans. So the current ban is in effect that blanketly prohibits any strategy involving restoring your own PP indefinitely.
However, seeing as Smogon implemented an AG tier (semantics aside), maybe it's time to revisit the ban and see if there is a way to make Anything truly Go. I understand that the stall aspect of Funbro may be extremely uncompetitive and unhealthy in the official tiers, as I think they are not too hard to pull off. But in a tier where everything is or should be allowed, I hardly view the strategy as more annoying than the perfectly legitimate SwagPlay Klefki. I think my stance depends on whether it is possible to introduce a more complex ban than what we have now.
1. If it is possible or easily achievable to impose an auto-lose condition or disable certain options or commands in-game whenever certain requirements are met, then I believe that using Heal Pulse/Pain Split on a Struggling opponent should be that requirement. I am not aware of any way to win the game by healing a Pokemon that will die by itself in 4-5 turns, and thus I believe that any such situation can only be created with malicious intent.
2. If it is impossible or extremely burdensome on the programmers to implement such rule, then I'd rather the Endless Battle Clause stay as it is. I would disagree with the implementation of a time limit, because as other posters have pointed out, some legitimate stall strategies (i.e. ones that attempt to win) may take longer time to execute, and it would be rather unfair to discourage such legitimate playstyles by deterring any strategy that inherently takes time. I don't think that a niche strategy that involves infinite Leppa Berries warrants such a big sacrifice on the programmers or the game itself.
Then again, maybe what I'm saying has been said countless times before, and if that's the case, sorry for beating the dead horse.
I am sure that this has been discussed before, but there are legitimate strategies that involve Leppa Berry + Recycle, aren't there? It may actually be used to wear down the opponent's PP, even if through a very tedious process, akin to other stall tactics that are allowed in AG such as Evasion boosts (especially with Pressure). The goal is to wear down the opponent team and let them Struggle to death, one by one. In the end, I can see how the strategy can be used to win, and hence within the spirit of the game.
Endless Battle happens only when the user decides to be an ass and thinks it's a good idea to waste both their and the opponent's time by healing a Struggling Pokemon they should have let faint already. I find such people abhorrent, especially if they aim to make their opponents surrender, as they could have easily achieved that if they let the opponent's Pokemon fall 100~ turns ago without forcing the boredom onto people who play to have fun.
In a perfect world, an online battle simulator can electrocute such dicks in front of their computers whenever they maliciously press that Heal Pulse button. Absent such technology, we can only implement a complex rule to prevent or reduce such occurrences. If I recall correctly, I think Smogon tried their best to make the ban as non-intrusive as possible, only to be beaten by the creative assholes who always found their way to bypass more complex bans. So the current ban is in effect that blanketly prohibits any strategy involving restoring your own PP indefinitely.
However, seeing as Smogon implemented an AG tier (semantics aside), maybe it's time to revisit the ban and see if there is a way to make Anything truly Go. I understand that the stall aspect of Funbro may be extremely uncompetitive and unhealthy in the official tiers, as I think they are not too hard to pull off. But in a tier where everything is or should be allowed, I hardly view the strategy as more annoying than the perfectly legitimate SwagPlay Klefki. I think my stance depends on whether it is possible to introduce a more complex ban than what we have now.
1. If it is possible or easily achievable to impose an auto-lose condition or disable certain options or commands in-game whenever certain requirements are met, then I believe that using Heal Pulse/Pain Split on a Struggling opponent should be that requirement. I am not aware of any way to win the game by healing a Pokemon that will die by itself in 4-5 turns, and thus I believe that any such situation can only be created with malicious intent.
2. If it is impossible or extremely burdensome on the programmers to implement such rule, then I'd rather the Endless Battle Clause stay as it is. I would disagree with the implementation of a time limit, because as other posters have pointed out, some legitimate stall strategies (i.e. ones that attempt to win) may take longer time to execute, and it would be rather unfair to discourage such legitimate playstyles by deterring any strategy that inherently takes time. I don't think that a niche strategy that involves infinite Leppa Berries warrants such a big sacrifice on the programmers or the game itself.
Then again, maybe what I'm saying has been said countless times before, and if that's the case, sorry for beating the dead horse.