B&W Research Thread

Apparantly, Ditto actually copies the stat boosts of items in gen 4.(as seen in the bold)
If it did completely copy stats, then Ditto would outspeed the Hihidaruma, but It didn't meaning the transformation mechanics were tweaked.

So lets say I have Hihidaruma had 200 speed + Scarf (300 speed in total). Ditto would copy the 200 speed stat, but NOT the scarf boost. It needs to use it's OWN scarf to tie with Hihidaruma, and that's why I think Hihidaruma outsped him.
the mechanics have not changed. ditto transforms and takes any stat boosts this is true. however choice scarf, band and specs are not considered stat boosts as you never see the text say "so-and-so's attack raised.". just like the double speed from Unburden cannot be baton passed as it isnt actually raising your speed by boosts, it is just doubling your speed overall.

so here is what i figure. boosts such as Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Choice Specs, DeepSeaTooth, DeepSeaScale, Light Ball, Unburden boost, Thick Club, and any type of boost that doesn't specifically increase a stat by +1, +2, etc. is not copied by Transform and will only receive those boosts if that pokemon meets those qualifications as well. for example: if your ditto has a Thick Club equipped and transforms into an enemy Marowak or if Ditto has a Choic Scarf and transforms into Hihidurama.

Transform does exactly what the description says. it transforms into the pokemon with all of its Stat Boosts intact, and items like choice scarf and abilities like unburden do not count as boosts so they are not factored in (unless of course ditto uses his item after he transforms into an unburden pokemon). i hope that makes sense?
 
Oh.


Then what's the problem...? Hihidaruma outsped because he won speed tie.
:/
The problem comes from these two lines:
The stats are copied exactly, without regard to EVs, IVs, and level.

Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Choice Specs keep their boost upon Transforming.
I understand this to mean that:
  1. Whatever the stat number is of the opposing pokemon, that stat is copied without question by Ditto.
  2. A Choice item held by Ditto is then used to apply a further boost onto the newly copied stat.

If the above assumptions hold, then this is what should happen:
  1. Hihidaruma has 200 Spd, or 300 Spd with Choice Scarf
  2. If Ditto DOES NOT hold a Choice Scarf and switches in, it should copy the 300 exactly, since Choice Scarf actually changes the Spd stat (as opposed to something like Custap Berry, which is "invisible" as far as stats are concerned). By this, I do not mean that it adds a +1 modifier to Spd, but that the actual stat of the pokemon is changed.
  3. If Ditto DOES hold a Choice Scarf and switches in, it should copy the 300 and then apply the Choice Scarf boost on top of that, ending up with with 450 Spd.

If the above does not happen, then it could mean one or more of the following:
  1. Choice Items no longer directly edit the stat. They apply a "hidden" boost. (this is unlikely)
  2. Transform ignores boosts applied by the enemy's Choice items. (actually, this could apply for items in general. Would an itemless Ditto switching into a Thick Club Marowak copy the doubled Atk or the base Atk?)
  3. Transform DOES copy the stat exactly, but the game prevents double stacking of Choice item boosts. Perhaps the game knows that a particular stat is already Choice-boosted and prevents further boosting of it.
  4. Transform thinks Choice Scarf is OP and specifically ignores it (who knows, lol).

EDIT:
the mechanics have not changed. ditto transforms and takes any stat boosts this is true. however choice scarf, band and specs are not considered stat boosts as you never see the text say "so-and-so's attack raised.". just like the double speed from Unburden cannot be baton passed as it isnt actually raising your speed by boosts, it is just doubling your speed overall.

so here is what i figure. boosts such as Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Choice Specs, DeepSeaTooth, DeepSeaScale, Light Ball, Unburden boost, Thick Club, and any type of boost that doesn't specifically increase a stat by +1, +2, etc. is not copied by Transform and will only receive those boosts if that pokemon meets those qualifications as well. for example: if your ditto has a Thick Club equipped and transforms into an enemy Marowak or if Ditto has a Choic Scarf and transforms into Hihidurama.

Transform does exactly what the description says. it transforms into the pokemon with all of its Stat Boosts intact, and items like choice scarf and abilities like unburden do not count as boosts so they are not factored in (unless of course ditto uses his item after he transforms into an unburden pokemon). i hope that makes sense?
If this is indeed the case, it would answer all of the above questions. Can someone test/confirm this? If it has already been confirmed, then sorry for the repeat question.
 
The problem comes from these two lines:

I understand this to mean that:
  1. Whatever the stat number is of the opposing pokemon, that stat is copied without question by Ditto.
  2. A Choice item held by Ditto is then used to apply a further boost onto the newly copied stat.

If the above assumptions hold, then this is what should happen:
  1. Hihidaruma has 200 Spd, or 300 Spd with Choice Scarf
  2. If Ditto DOES NOT hold a Choice Scarf and switches in, it should copy the 300 exactly, since Choice Scarf actually changes the Spd stat (as opposed to something like Custap Berry, which is "invisible" as far as stats are concerned). By this, I do not mean that it adds a +1 modifier to Spd, but that the actual stat of the pokemon is changed.
  3. If Ditto DOES hold a Choice Scarf and switches in, it should copy the 300 and then apply the Choice Scarf boost on top of that, ending up with with 450 Spd.

If the above does not happen, then it could mean one or more of the following:
  1. Choice Items no longer directly edit the stat. They apply a "hidden" boost. (this is unlikely)
  2. Transform ignores boosts applied by the enemy's Choice items. (actually, this could apply for items in general. Would an itemless Ditto switching into a Thick Club Marowak copy the doubled Atk or the base Atk?)
  3. Transform DOES copy the stat exactly, but the game prevents double stacking of Choice item boosts. Perhaps the game knows that a particular stat is already Choice-boosted and prevents further boosting of it.
  4. Transform thinks Choice Scarf is OP and specifically ignores it (who knows, lol).

EDIT:

If this is indeed the case, it would answer all of the above questions. Can someone test/confirm this? If it has already been confirmed, then sorry for the repeat question.
I answered that earlier but I'll take this chance to explain my testing method

Can someone test whether or not a scarfed Ditto that comes in against another scarfed Pokemon will always out speed?

I ask because I had a wifi battle the other day where my scarf Hihidaruma still out sped a Ditto (both were leads, so it transformed into me) and was able to KO it. I would have asked my opponent if he was running a scarf or not, but he left the chat I was on and didn't come back.
I just tested scarf ditto vs other scarf mons and it turns out it's a normal 50/50 chance to go first.

I tested this by using two DSes and scarfing all the opposing Pokemon. I sent out scarfed eccentric Ditto and had both Pokemon spam boosting moves until ditto went second. I repeated this against four different Pokemon and ditto failed to go first 100% of the time.

This means Ditto doesn't always go first and does not copy Choice Scarf boosts.
 

Team Rocket Elite

Data Integration Thought Entity
is a Top Researcher Alumnus
Regarding Sky Jewel + Acrobat. You get both boosts. You use the Sky Jewel right before attacking so Acrobat has double power on top of the Sky Jewel boost. When I tried this I did about 3x normal Acrobat damage.
 
TRE, can you test if Power/Guard Share averages the actual stats, or stat changes? I'm inclined to think it's the latter.
 

Team Rocket Elite

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is a Top Researcher Alumnus
TRE, can you test if Power/Guard Share averages the actual stats, or stat changes? I'm inclined to think it's the latter.
Sure.

Level 36 Deskhan
46 Atk, 117 Def

Level 63 Zebraika
161 Atk, 105 Def

Expected Damage using Wild Volt:
85-102

Expected Damage using Wild Volt after Power Share:
Attack Average: 103.5 (103)

55-66

Damage Dealt:

61, 60, 61, 64, 55, 58, 60, 60, 60, 63, 58, 61, 60,

This shows that it indeed does average the attack stat between the target and the user. But what happens when the target uses something like Swords Dance?

Level 36 Deskhan
46 Atk, 117 Def

Level 66 Doryuuzu
231 Atk

Turn 1:
Doryuuzu uses Swords Dance
Deskhan uses Power Share

Expected Damage using X-Scissor after one Swords Dance and use of Power Share if...

Multiplier from stat modifiers are applied on Power Shared averaged attack stat:
276 Attack after rounding, 45-53 Damage

Multiplier from stat modifiers are applied on the target's original attack stat then the stats are averaged:
254 Attack, 42-49 Damage

The first attack by Doryuuzu did 52 damage, which means Power Share takes the base value of the target and the user's attacking stats, and applies stat modifiers after. Thus, Power Share can't be used to "tap into" a target's stat boostings.


Guard Share probably works in the same way as Power Share, but I'll probably test that to be sure another time. Also, I'll test if the attack boosting from Choice items get shared or not.
 
Might be a stupid question, but with the RNG Reporter currently out of action for the current moment, does Synchronize now work with the 2 Roaming Genies?

Just thought I'd put this one up as it deserves mention.

-James
 
Posting to confirm that Balloon pops even if the holder is behind a substitute. Tested this with a Magnezone holding a Balloon against a wild Lunatone. I subbed as it Psychiced, and the Balloon still popped.
 

ΩDonut

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That doesn't mean it's not worth testing...
Yes it does. If there is no good reason to believe the mechanics may have changed, then it's not something to consider testing. Only if someone discovers it's not acting as expected will it be put on the testing list. Which I will be updating now for the last few pages.

Looks like I'm going to have to put up a dedicated "things Serebii got wrong" list.
 
Looks like I'm going to have to put up a dedicated "things Serebii got wrong" list.
Just make a rule not to use serebii as a source for game mechanics lol, as that list would take ages to make.

I often wonder if the serebii administration just makes up those mechanics. I mean while solid rock's mistake could be attributed to a typo, it doesn't explain why they think the Jewels only work below 33% HP

Beat Up: how is its damage calculated now?
I have tested Beat up with the fellowing results:
All beat up tests have been done against a Blissey with max Def ev's/Iv's and Bold nature.

Bold 0Ev/31IV Blissey: 14-16 damage
Adamant 252Ev/31IV Machamp: 37-44 damage
Adamant 252Ev/31IV Absol holding Choice Band: 37-44 damage
Timid 0EV/0IV Absol: 37-44 damage
Jolly 0EV/31IV Archeos: 39-45 damage

It seems that beat up ignores all STAB/IV/EV/Nature/Item modifications.
Also the game doesn't say who is doing the beat up damage like it did in shoddy battle(which made the test very difficult). Not sure if this is a change from Gen 4 or a mistake from Shoddy battle though.

However does anyone know how you can calculate damage on base stats alone? I have searched everywhere but i couldn't find it.
 
Sorry if I couldn't post earlier (didn't have internet for 2 days), but I do have tested Hi Jump Kick against an Impish Crobat 252 HP / 252 Def, so that Blaziken's Hi Jump Kick would have dealt between 46 and 54 HP (92 and 108 HP if critical hit) and despite that when Blaziken missed its Hi Jump Kick it still sustained 150 HP of 301 due to crash damage.


EDIT : This is true as well for Jump Kick, Stantler missed one against the same Crobat and crash damage makes Stantler lose 132 HP of 264.

Jump Kick and Hi Jump Kick really doesn't take into account resistances, weaknesses and immunities and will make the user lose 1/2 of its max HP rounded down.
 

ΩDonut

don't glaze me bro
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However does anyone know how you can calculate damage on base stats alone? I have searched everywhere but i couldn't find it.
Just substitute the attacker's base Attack and the target's base Defense into the damage formula where the regular Attack and Defense would be.

What were the levels of each of the attacking Pokemon?
 

Death Phenomeno

I'm polite so just for clarity, when I'm cross I
is a Contributor Alumnus
I know the following questions are low priority, but I want to ask them regardless.

Questions:


  1. According to this, Plus & Minus now work with the same paired ability rather than exclusively with each other. Has this been confirmed?
  2. How does Plus & Minus "stack" with each other in Triple Battles if all 3 Pokémon have the required abilities, if at all?

Unrelated: Now that the ??? type no longer exists, how is the dreaded Roost + pure Flying Type scenario handled?
 

ΩDonut

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Finally updated the OP with questions and info from the last few days.

Also, two new rules:

- Do not cite evidence from an online simulator.

- If a research question is a result of "because Serebii said it does THIS" please check here first.
I really wish I didn't have to put up either rule, but it seems I have to.
 
Just substitute the attacker's base Attack and the target's base Defense into the damage formula where the regular Attack and Defense would be.

What were the levels of each of the attacking Pokemon?
All the pokemon are lvl 100
Thanks for clearing that up to me

Gale\Windstorm: Does it get Swift-like accuracy in Rain, bypassing Evasion boosts\Accuracy drops?
Yes
My Vaporeon with Wind Storm didn't miss after 16 tries with a -6 Stage Accuracy during Rain.

Knock Off: does it knock off a Focus Sash before it deals damage?
No, the Focus Sash still activates when OHKO'd by Knock off.

How many HP are healed if a Shedinja uses Wish?
A Wish From Shedinja heals 1 HP, no more no less.
 

ΩDonut

don't glaze me bro
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All the pokemon are lvl 100
Thanks for clearing that up to me
So it looks like we're working with a new formula here. If it were truly the same as last gen, Machamp would be doing 94-111 damage to Blissey with Beat Up.
 
Trace: Does it fail against Illusion?
Trace does indeed fail to copy Illusion, I had a party of 6 members in case it would have worked.

Wild Zoroark appeared
Trainer sent out Gardevoir (with Trace ability off course)
No message about Trace, Gardevoir failed to disguise into the 6th member in the party.
 
So it looks like we're working with a new formula here. If it were truly the same as last gen, Machamp would be doing 94-111 damage to Blissey with Beat Up.
Yes, my initial thought was that while it might ignore offensive modifications it doesn't do the defensive ones. And these results seem to confirm my theory
252EV/31IV Att Adamant Machamp using Beat up against Hasty Blissey with 0EV/IV in Def did 157-171 damage(highest and lowest achieved after 10 tries)

Also all those damage calculations from Absols are token from Machamp using Beat up(with Absol being the '3th' member of the team).
It is possible that i accidently took Machamp Beat up's calculations rather then Absols so i'm doing the test again.
Edit: Retested the earlier results are correct, 37 minimum- 44 maximum damage from a Absol with 0EV/0IV and Timid nature


Elemental Gems: Does it "power up" even if the move does not deal damage? Such as Flame Gem powering up Will-O-Wisp?
No, my Fire based Elemental Gem did not activate when Burunkuru used WoW
 
Simple: How is the power of Assist Power determined with Pokemon with Simple, as it doubles their boosts?
Kokoromori (253SpAtt) with the ability Simple using Assist Power against Blissey with 306 Spatt(i hope only two tests are enough)

Without boosts: 18-21 damage -> 20BP
After one Amnesia: 92-97 damage -> 100BP

I suppose these results confirm that Assist Power does not ignore the doubled boost from Simple.
 
How does the ability Friend Guard/Card work? (フレンドガード (furendogaado))

Veekun says "Takes less damage from allies."
Serebii says "It can lower the damage received by a team-mate."

Does someone know how it works exactly?
 

Jibaku

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When I was going to Kyurem's cave, a wild Ditto appeared. I switched into Giratina-O as it transforms. Ditto Transformed into Giratina-O, as opposed to the previous generation where it'd transform into Giratina-O and immediately transform into Giratina-A. With this in mind, what other mechanic changes are there on Transform?
 
Not sure if this was already known, but Sand Throw also gives an immunity to sandstorm damage. I was just in a wifi battle and my porygon2 came in on a doryuuzu and traced its sand throw and the entire time p2 was in it did not take any ss damage.
 

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