BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
I made a list of the new abilities before i first played in Gen 7. Most felt weak to me,
however my first thought on Innhards Out was that it is Hackmons material.

Im against bans 99 % of the time, but i would vote yes on that one.


The thing which amazes me the most is Chanseys flexibility;
Variance ~10x without factoring in Fur Coat.

it can live;
252+ Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 570-672 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and die;
0- Atk Registeel U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 697-820 (100.1 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (LvL 99 Chansey, Lvl 100 is 50/50)

Guess it learned it from too much impostering.
 
Your favorite never-plays-BH guy is back with reqs again lol. It's quite worrying that some random can get reqs not once but twice with relatively the same team with almost no trouble at all. It only took me a couple games to realize that everyone was spamming Queenly Majesty, Dazzling, and Psychic Surge, so I made a simple adaptation to the team and proceeded to rarely lose to them.

I do have a question: why is Water Bubble even being suspected right now and before other problems? I laddered twice, once for CFZ and once for WB, never seeing Water Bubble. Anyway, I'm just curious because I see other problems such as APS, Innards Out, and Assist pdon as much more important. APS and Innards Out existed in the CFZ meta, so it's not like they're some magical new style that didn't exist. But I don't play BH outside of these suspects, so who knows. I mean it's just very difficult to understand when I've literally seen Water Bubble 0 times in about 100 games of BH. On the other hand, I see APS pretty much every 2nd game, and Innards Out cheese every 3rd game too at least. Assist pdon I see as a problem because I'm here with reqs twice without understanding BH or even really trying!

APS is only a problem because of priority prevention. Without priority prevention, every type of team can fit checks for it without being excessively specific. I think it's actually strange to even consider Shell Smash and/or Focus Sash the issue, when that exact combination existed last generation... Honestly, at this point I'd be considering a quickban on priority prevention, a suspect on Innards Out, and definitely have some thought about Assist pdon. If some people wanted to grief your meta and suspects, they could just freely get reqs with Assist pdon and muck up your voting. Assist pdon in your meta is honestly really concerning because it means people who have played your meta for 2 hours and know almost nothing have the same importance in your suspect as veterans. For example, a lot of respected BH battlers I know seem to want to ban Water Bubble, but since I've seen it 0 times in 100, it seems obvious that I should vote no ban because it's 100% irrelevant on the ladder as far as I can see. I plan to abstain in yet another suspect out of respect and recognition of my own lack of experience, but this situation is just kinda sad.

For the record, the only change I made to my team since the CFZ suspect was to add a Choice Scarf Imposter Chansey to beat APS teams that don't see it coming. My win rate against them is actually pretty good considering I have 2 Prankster users lol that do literally 0. I think it's rather telling that the adaptation I made wasn't to help with Water Bubble but to help with something not even being suspected. (And I read a post by E4 Flint that I believe meant Innards Out might be the next vote, so it'll be even longer!)
 

GL Volkner

[12:15:34] @Thinkerino: You're an animal
is a Tiering Contributor
Your favorite never-plays-BH guy is back with reqs again lol. It's quite worrying that some random can get reqs not once but twice with relatively the same team with almost no trouble at all. It only took me a couple games to realize that everyone was spamming Queenly Majesty, Dazzling, and Psychic Surge, so I made a simple adaptation to the team and proceeded to rarely lose to them.

I do have a question: why is Water Bubble even being suspected right now and before other problems? I laddered twice, once for CFZ and once for WB, never seeing Water Bubble. Anyway, I'm just curious because I see other problems such as APS, Innards Out, and Assist pdon as much more important. APS and Innards Out existed in the CFZ meta, so it's not like they're some magical new style that didn't exist. But I don't play BH outside of these suspects, so who knows. I mean it's just very difficult to understand when I've literally seen Water Bubble 0 times in about 100 games of BH. On the other hand, I see APS pretty much every 2nd game, and Innards Out cheese every 3rd game too at least. Assist pdon I see as a problem because I'm here with reqs twice without understanding BH or even really trying!

APS is only a problem because of priority prevention. Without priority prevention, every type of team can fit checks for it without being excessively specific. I think it's actually strange to even consider Shell Smash and/or Focus Sash the issue, when that exact combination existed last generation... Honestly, at this point I'd be considering a quickban on priority prevention, a suspect on Innards Out, and definitely have some thought about Assist pdon. If some people wanted to grief your meta and suspects, they could just freely get reqs with Assist pdon and muck up your voting. Assist pdon in your meta is honestly really concerning because it means people who have played your meta for 2 hours and know almost nothing have the same importance in your suspect as veterans. For example, a lot of respected BH battlers I know seem to want to ban Water Bubble, but since I've seen it 0 times in 100, it seems obvious that I should vote no ban because it's 100% irrelevant on the ladder as far as I can see. I plan to abstain in yet another suspect out of respect and recognition of my own lack of experience, but this situation is just kinda sad.

For the record, the only change I made to my team since the CFZ suspect was to add a Choice Scarf Imposter Chansey to beat APS teams that don't see it coming. My win rate against them is actually pretty good considering I have 2 Prankster users lol that do literally 0. I think it's rather telling that the adaptation I made wasn't to help with Water Bubble but to help with something not even being suspected. (And I read a post by E4 Flint that I believe meant Innards Out might be the next vote, so it'll be even longer!)
I agree with the above - APS has gotten outta hand and so has Assist. However, in my experience the ladder before a suspect was declared had more of Water Bubble than APS (as well as a lot of high level matches not even opting to use APS in favor of Water Bubble's immediate wallbreaking power), so I guess that would be why WB is being suspected before.

The thing with the meta right now IMO is that there are so many things that need to be looked at and the popularity of these things varies a lot so it's incredibly hard to tell what's more popular when and what needs to go beforehand.

I don't think IO and APS can be looked at individually since the presence of one helps the other. Flint made a Teravolt (no, I'm not saying Turboblaze since that's the worst one) Regigigas that revenged a lot of APS sweepers for CLC and I guess it became really popular because whenever I brought out my Teravolt Regigigas on something, the opponent just brought their Innards Out mon out to kill my Regigigas and proceed to sweep with Dazzling [insert mon] here. The problem with Innards Out being allowed is that a type of answer to APS (Moldy Priority) is automatically invalidated because the problem is that you simply don't know when they'll bring their Innards Out Pokemon out and you can't afford to predict either when there's a thing that sweeps your entire team right in front of you.

However, on the other hand I have to say that APS is also broken as fuck and Innards Out only makes it worse - The abusers of APS (MMX, Kartana, MMY, Gyarados, Rayquaza, etc.) all can afford to carry coverage that bops Prank Haze users (Registeel is the only one that comes to mind tbh but I'm sure there are others) and they're strong enough to do it as well.

I guess I'd rather have IO quickbanned, there's really no reason to have it be a suspect since IO is inherently incompetitive (don't start with the Destiny Bond or Refrigerate Explosion comparisons please) and if possible I'd like to have Dazzling/QM suspected due to the reasons mentioned by IT11.

Also, I think that how long this suspect process takes is ridiculous and I also agree w/ Eien that it taking so long is something negative. I don't blame Flint because honestly this policy really isn't a nice thing to have and it's completely out of his hands, but that isn't a topic for this thread so I'll go address it somewhere else.

I just realized how my post has no traceable thought process whatsoever lmao rip
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

NO MONEY? NO JOB? TOO MUCH BAD NEWS??
is a Community Contributor
I think that how long this suspect process takes is ridiculous and I also agree w/ Eien that it taking so long is something negative. I don't blame Flint because honestly this policy really isn't a nice thing to have and it's completely out of his hands, but that isn't a topic for this thread so I'll go address it somewhere else.
Honestly I think that the reason this is a problem is because there's so much stuff in here-- Assist, APS, and Innards Out are all pretty bad-- but the thing is that unlike stuff like GKR last gen, none of the potential suspects have met any opposition. I haven't seen a single person post about why Water Bubble should stay in the tier, or why Innards Out is a fair, healthy ability. No idea why Water Bubble wasn't quickbanned but w/e

My thoughts on APS:
Yeah this is pretty dumb. Not being available to actually revenge kill these things safely without either going 1-for-1 with Prankster Destiny Bond or playing Russian Roulette with an Imposter is really lame and it needs to go. Phazing moves are almost mandatory on defensive pivots now because sometimes even if they click U-Turn, the player doesn't even have anything to actually beat the APS user.

Here's the counterplay:
  • Prankster Haze takes a slot and has to be brought in on the Shell Smash.
  • Skill Link is ok but it doesn't necessarily OHKO everything. For instance, Kartana can live through any multi-hit move besides like Arm Thrust.
  • Imposter beats certain users but not others. APS users usually pack an Innards Out user to switch in on the Imposter.
  • Innards Out is 1 for 1 and sometimes the APS user carries a multi-hit move
  • Prankster Destiny Bond is basically the same as an OHKO move
so yeah we need to get this thing out of here.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Honestly I think that the reason this is a problem is because there's so much stuff in here-- Assist, APS, and Innards Out are all pretty bad--
..........

Despite the fact that I am one the worst abusers of Innards Out in BH metagame (with that 5 Chansey team), I cannot disagree with the fact that it is very unhealthy for the metagame.

Innards Out:
This ability is fucking cancerous and requires next to no skill to use. Taking out whichever of your opponent's mons you want to (if you're not completely moronic and let it lose health) is definitely unhealthy for the meta.
This pretty much my stance on Innards Out. Yes, it is fun as hell to see a seemingly innocent blob exploding with someone else, but all you have to do to activate that hydrogen bomb is to throw it to anything like Pdon.

Last Gen, BH was pretty much a game of eliminating a specific wall on each team that walled -ate users or Sturdinja, which were the most dominant force in the Gen 6 metagame (IMO). Most Pixilate Diancies and Refrigerate Kyurems were entirely walled by Registeel alone unless they carried very specific coverage move while forfeiting to carry boosting moves or other moves that they could utilize with.

But in this Gen, say if something Registeel is continuing to bug opponents, then they can just toss Innards Out Chansey on U-turn, and opponent cannot do anything about your sweeper other than playing Russian Roulette with Imposter or using their own Innards Out.

Because Innards Out activates upon KO, it does not require specific play to make it successful. It can happen in any unexpected time, so opponent might actually lose their significant improofing wall for their own sweeper or support member of their team in 1 turn, from random switch-in from the other side.

Also, Innards Out is not all about Chansey, although it is arguably the best user of such ability in the tier.

....
Innards out doesnt need to be an defensive ability
.......

Today is no skill day kids! All you have to do is find a mon with >100 Base Hp and a shi*load of Atk/SpA! Oh boi!
Just pairing Innards Out on something like Mega Ray, MMX/MMY, Primals, or any Mega 'mons with Choice Item with Innards Out is hell frustrating to deal with. You have to take nuke attacks, and majority of the walls are overwhelmed by absurdly powerful coverage moves like V-Create / Close Combat / Dragon Ascent or boosts from Shell Smash, which helps activating Innards Out with maximized efficiency.

Innards Out Chansey is has no use outsides bombing someone, but it can still kill someone as long as it has HP over 60+%.
Innards Out on random 'mons with sh*tload of offensive stat can just keep spamming bs-base power moves until someone actually kills them and explode together.

Yes, I know I use spam teams all the time for gimmicks but this is my stance on Innards Out. This thing needs a ban, or at least limitations.
 
The general consensus here is that Innards out is cancer, and APS has too little counterplay (a lot if posts here seem to be trying to solve that by adding more counterplay too it) so...

What are everyone's thoughts on an Innards out quickban, and then an APS Suspect test once WB's gotten the boot?
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
The general consensus here is that Innards out is cancer, and APS has too little counterplay (a lot if posts here seem to be trying to solve that by adding more counterplay too it) so...

What are everyone's thoughts on an Innards out quickban, and then an APS Suspect test once WB's gotten the boot?
IMO we should vote for APS and take a time to think about IO... IO requires no skill, so does Imposter. You just send Chansey to transform into opponent with stat boost and wipe their team if they are unprepared. So did we ban Imposter? No...

Not saying IO has no problem, but we should think about specific reasons why should we ban IO.
 

GL Volkner

[12:15:34] @Thinkerino: You're an animal
is a Tiering Contributor
IMO we should vote for APS and take a time to think about IO... IO requires no skill, so does Imposter. You just send Chansey to transform into opponent with stat boost and wipe their team if they are unprepared. So did we ban Imposter? No...
wait what

innards out is just completely stupid especially in tandem with razzle dazzle as it has the potential to remove your one answer to the opponent's team just by sending in something to die

it also forces a bunch of 50/50s

imposter is what teaches low ladder that you can't just mindlessly run a bunch of offensive mons without risking getting swept by one of your own

it's the only set that you know for sure what it will do and that's why it's legal

i dont get it
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
wait what

innards out is just completely stupid especially in tandem with razzle dazzle as it has the potential to remove your one answer to the opponent's team just by sending in something to die

it also forces a bunch of 50/50s

imposter is what teaches low ladder that you can't just mindlessly run a bunch of offensive mons without risking getting swept by one of your own

it's the only set that you know for sure what it will do and that's why it's legal

i dont get it
TL;DR: we shouldn't ban Innards Out just because it is a cancer or simply by saying no-skill-required. I am saying that we should make deeper thoughts about how it affects the metagame.

Sorry for not clarifying this in previous post.



Please kill me
 
Finally we all agree on something!


I do have a question: why is Water Bubble even being suspected right now
and before other problems?
Some users called for a Water Bubble ban. (21.01.2017)


Moving away from Innards Out (which, the more I think about it, seems more like
Fridge Kyu-B in early X/Y, Electrify + Lightning Rod M-Gengar, Protean Sash Deo-A, and Light Ball Pikachu), lemme focus more on the next suspect.

Water Bubble itself
I guess Rumors paid Flints vacation in exchange for suspect choice.
"Make good pictures so we can ban it"


This is my favorite part of the suspect requirement thread;

I would have happily gone for option 3 ~2 weeks ago but razzle dazzle and innards out tilts me
so hard and makes it unbearable for me to ladder seriously right now.

but the thing is that unlike stuff like GKR last gen,
none of the potential suspects have met any opposition. I haven't seen a single person post about why Water Bubble should stay in the tier,
or why Innards Out is a fair, healthy ability. No idea why Water Bubble wasn't quickbanned but w/e
.
I holded back...
After the CFZ ban the discussion shifted onto Innhards Out multiple times. ShedMiddleFinga did multiple posts.
Post counter arguments yourself, only the vote counts.


Lets look at the ban definition we know in and out;
(ShedMiddleFinga 21 January 2017, "It" is Innhards Out))

You are rite, it does work on chansey nukes a lot more frequently,
but imo it's ban worthy because it fits more nearly with this:

"Splashable"ility:
Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard

Extreme Augmentation:
The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter.
This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset,
is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

As I believed I just stated, you do NOT need to run it on just chansey. When I look on water bubble, the second clause is met,
but not so much the first one. I mean, yeah, you can run it on mew two or something but thats about it.
You know what you're dealing with. Innards Out, you're pretty much F***ed into doing something you don't want to do by which time
I may have murdered your team with a 800 ark mon. My issue with Innards is that
you can use it anything basically that has 100+ base HP because the average hp for mons
in the metagame is actually ridiculously low, something like 300-350. Most walls have 70-80 Base HP (registeel,
but not solgaleo) and offensive mons don't run HP evs. Taking for granted that a Kyube wouldn't have HP invest
(it would prob) a max hp ray would still ohko it because of the EV discrepency despite having 20 more Base HP.

Basically, if you look at the definition of bannable, imo it fits IO > WB
...

I agree and i think;
Water Bubble is not splashable, it works mostly on offensive Water types and the evercommon powerhouses.
Water Bubble is moveset reliant, you need Water moves to make use of its effect, the defensive part was never called OP.

The ability checks itself as it is promoting other Water types. Burn immume means no Steam Erruption burns.
Water Absorb and Storm Drain are counters, Unlike Pure Power or Parental Bond it boosts one fixed typing.

Water Bubble is not mentioned at all in the MMY, M-Ray or Kyurem-W analysis.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-analysis-megathread.3592578/#25
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-analysis-megathread.3592578/#18
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-analysis-megathread.3592578/page-2#37 (Written by RNGIsCancer)

Ironicly even E4 Flint does not mention it in his QC;
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-analysis-megathread.3592578/page-4#89

Official Water Bubble users are P-Kyogre, Palkia, M-Gyrados and Greninja-Ash.

If someone has more time than me he could watch replays from the Suspect ladder.
Seriously how can P-Don spam be viable in Water Bubble suspect ladder.


wait what...
i dont get it
You cant trust him anything. January 21th 2017;

But Innards Out? It is:

Pop
Boom
Ded
You ded too

... I can't believe we have delayed our time to discuss about something that is even more prominent.
This will most likely be my last post about Innards Out once I post 20 extra replays using the same team.
These are from 19.02.2017;
Yes, I know I use spam teams all the time for gimmicks but this is my stance on Innards Out. This thing needs a ban, or at least limitations.
RNGIsCancer, Today at 7:14 AM
10 hours 59 minutes and one forum post later;

IMO we should vote for APS and take a time to think about IO... IO requires no skill,
so does Imposter. You just send Chansey to transform into opponent with stat boost and wipe their team if they are unprepared.
So did we ban Imposter? No...

Not saying IO has no problem, but we should think about specific reasons why should we ban IO.
RNGIsCancer, Today at 6:13 PM

He is very intelligent. He knew back when that Innhards Out is broken, instead of calling for a ban he decided to
to hype up other things like ability clause, 6 times same ability for Water Bubble, Water Bubble itself,
Item Clause, Focus Sash, Shell Smash, APS even Primals, now Imposter ...

He thinks you guys are too stupid to scroll up.
In the end he will say you guys should have listen to him earlier.


Our agreement stays strong!
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

NO MONEY? NO JOB? TOO MUCH BAD NEWS??
is a Community Contributor
I agree, we have a massive conspiracy on our hands. RNGIsCancer played us all for fools, somehow controlled the order in which Flint decided to do the suspects, and forced us to suspect an ability with the most interesting, creative counters I have seen for anything in my entire time playing BH. The fall of innovative threats like Water Absorb Xerneas shows how much a Water Bubble ban would hurt the metagame. But really, it's all part of a massive plot to suspect literally every available ability before Innards Out. Props to you for this amazing feat of detective work. That'll teach RNG to try to dig in the past, as his ignorance was clearly revealed by you who keep the secrets.
 

Kris

broken bricks
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driveris a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I agree, we have a massive conspiracy on our hands. RNGIsCancer played us all for fools, somehow controlled the order in which Flint decided to do the suspects, and forced us to suspect an ability with the most interesting, creative counters I have seen for anything in my entire time playing BH. The fall of innovative threats like Water Absorb Xerneas shows how much a Water Bubble ban would hurt the metagame. But really, it's all part of a massive plot to suspect literally every available ability before Innards Out. Props to you for this amazing feat of detective work. That'll teach RNG to try to dig in the past, as his ignorance was clearly revealed by you who keep the secrets.
Nice to see that you stole UC's post from the discord and slightly edited it to have it not considered ghost writing
 
I agree and i think;
Water Bubble is not splashable, it works mostly on offensive Water types and the evercommon powerhouses.
Water Bubble is moveset reliant, you need Water moves to make use of its effect, the defensive part was never called OP.

The ability checks itself as it is promoting other Water types. Burn immume means no Steam Erruption burns.
Water Bubble doesn't need to fulfill both of the broken ability criteria. In fact, it goes under the "Extreme Augmentation" one, as I believe you guessed from your comments on Pure Power and Parental Bond (will get to those soon).

  • The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond
Is it impossible to counter? No. Is it difficult? Yes, extremely so. Time to reiterate the same point I have said across media on countless occasions: few, if any, of the Water Bubble "counters" in existence (who, I might add, often lose to Specs Spout variants), would have any sort of utility on a team if not for Water Bubble. Water Absorb Fairy-types, in particular, are dead weight against the vast majority of teams. At least the Assault Vest Regenerator Mega Gyarados and Dialga can check things like Psychic Surge. Just because something has counters does not make it balanced.

Water Absorb and Storm Drain are counters, Unlike Pure Power or Parental Bond it boosts one fixed typing.
Also unlike Pure Power, it works on both physical and special attacks. Unlike Parental Bond, it doubles the power of each move, instead of adding an effective 1.25x multiplier. See why this isn't a good argument?

This isn't a great tactic either, though I do appreciate you making use of the analyses! Water Bubble is not especially relevant to the viability of any of those Pokemon; it doesn't check or counter them in a noteworthy fashion, nor is it checked or countered by any of them particularly well. And remember, how commonly something appears is not necessarily related to its brokenness. (This is also my primary objection with Eien's post above.)

I agree, we have a massive conspiracy on our hands. RNGIsCancer played us all for fools, somehow controlled the order in which Flint decided to do the suspects, and forced us to suspect an ability with the most interesting, creative counters I have seen for anything in my entire time playing BH. The fall of innovative threats like Water Absorb Xerneas shows how much a Water Bubble ban would hurt the metagame. But really, it's all part of a massive plot to suspect literally every available ability before Innards Out. Props to you for this amazing feat of detective work. That'll teach RNG to try to dig in the past, as his ignorance was clearly revealed by you who keep the secrets.
Nice to see that you stole UC's post from the discord and slightly edited it to have it not considered ghost writing
I don't mind. Though I didn't intend for Silver_Lucario to make use of my post (I had never negotiated callouts on Discord until today; would not recommend it in the future), he actually improved it somewhat with his changes. Besides, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And, most importantly, we need as much awareness of the massive Cancpiracy™ as possible.

edit: alternative names:
  • Canspiracy
  • Conspirng
  • Consmicacy (only December 2016 kids will get this)
 
Nice to see that you stole UC's post from the discord and slightly edited it to have it not considered ghost writing
He liked it anyways. That means he approves of this...

Anyways, coming from one of the people who wanted to suspect Water Bubble in the first place due to its massive power, it is dumb that an ability turns Water types into horrors that just take out entire teams that lack water immunities/AV resists/Impostors. I feel that any power doubling ability should immediately be considered for a quickban, considering how much this one warped the metagame. Water Absorb Xerneas (and Mega Diancie) still has merit in countering Poison Heal Primal Kyogre, among others...

...But I will say that I always saw Innards Out as incredibly dubious in Balanced Hackmons. I think the fact that someone was actively deceiving the thread brings this ability right to the front of the suspect list now. ...I'll probably just make a Core Enforcer "stop this stupid team spam" team just to spite that manipulation...

Oh, yes. The whole APS thing. I feel that Dazzling and Queenly are problems, but the physical variants can be resisted by Unawares that don't mind Sunsteel Strike. It's the special ones that I find issue with... and both of them can be dealt with by a timely Core Enforcer as they set up... (Core Enforcer is one of the best moves out there these days) They still might warrant a ban.

Psychic Surge is the bigger issue, in my eyes. While it does announce itself, it does not announce the coverage or the Psychic STAB itself that the user is going to be nuking your team with... 5 turns is more than enough for a cleaner to do its job, and a 1.5x boost isn't anything to scoff at.... even if Psychic is a weaker offensive type. I wouldn't mind suspecting Dazzling and Queenly, but would want to ban the surge first, due to how powerful it can be for enabling sweepers (and making for easier Impostor-proofing).
 

Ransei

Let legends be real
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Other Metas Leader
What's up with this thread becoming similar to that Hackmons thread we had 2 and a half years ago... This is unnecessary and is getting unhealthy. You don't want BH to become the same state as CH :(. This conversation is about Innards Out right? From what we know about Innards Out, we know that it makes many Chansey give themselves 0 HP and 0 Defense investment, purposely allowing themselves to be OHKOed. That feature alone makes the ability as a whole broken (more because the Pokemon that can abuse this ability the most are also the Pokemon with the highest HP than anything else). Water Bubble is a pure powerhouse; a pain to fight. It isn't the most broken thing in the world in my opinion but I have a feeling that it might as well be suspected in the future. Maybe just Kyogre-Primal instead. I'm honestly a bit more concerned about the fact that every priority user is afraid of the metagame right now. Also, let's just ignore conspiracies since that seems to be what started this situation is in the first place.
 
Last edited:

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
What's up with this thread becoming similar to that Hackmons thread we had 2 and a half years ago... This is unnecessary. This is about Innards Out right? From what we know about Innards Out, we know that it makes many Chansey give themselves 0 HP and 0 Defense investment, purposely allowing themselves to be OHKOed. That feature alone makes the ability as a whole broken.
It is OHKOed by Registeel's U-turn with 252HP. (0 IV, negative influence from nature)
You can just remove whatever you want by simply tossing it, if your target has any physical move other than something like Rapid Spin.

Every team has own checks or hard counter. Any team can remove whatever is bugging or threatening by tossing Chansey. This is something that should be fixed.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Moderator
Friendly reminder that the current discussion is on APS, and the current suspect is on Water Bubble. I have selected the order of suspects based on what I feel are the most pressing issues and also, which decisions could impact later ones down the line. For example, if APS is dealt with, would that have an impact on IO? I think that a more in-depth discussion on it would be helpful. The order I have decided upon again is as follows:

Water Bubble (Current!)
APS
IO
open to discussion (e.g. Assist)

Re: Why is Assist not qb'd/dealt with before the rest?
I firmly beleive the effectiveness of Assist right now is because the state of the metagame i.e. running fast frail teams is conducive for its success (and to be fair, the quality of the suspect ladder at times). In my experience (and I know this isn't the best evidence) I have seen Assist not be very effective against even mildly competent players with bulky balance or defensive teams e.g. in tournament environments. We have gotten some great tools to combat Assist that were not there before (zygardeComplete, Zcrystals for Trick immunity, use of priority blockers). Plus, I think that after the mentioned suspcets go through we'll have a much better picture on the ultimate impact of Assist. I'm not saying it's not broken or that it won't get banned eventually, but that I do believe I have a handle on what the ban order should be as determined by myself and the playerbase and to imply otherwise with no real basis is a little rude, but idm.

there is no conspiracy
I understand that there are a lot of things that we need to address, and I also understand that the rigidity and time-consuming nature of the suspect process can be frustrating but I want things to be done the right way. Half-assed decisions lead to more half-assed decisions and harm the metagame.


Let's try to return the conversation to the current topic. As a great man once said:
Please stop sh*tposting
This page says Bananced Fuking Hackmons Suspect and Bans Thread
especially not with stuff like

Please kill me
amirite
 
Just to point out some of the inadequate arguments from last page's nightmare:

- the fact that water bubble is not used on the ladder is NOT an argument. The ladder is mostly trash player that barely know what competitive pokémon is (which is why many people from other tiers have complained of how easy it was to get reqs). In addition, Water Bubble still makes for a massive wallbreaker and I wouldn't be surprised if it took down a team in the upcoming tournaments. For examples of why ladder usage isn't an indicator, you could speak about Mega-Sableye (or things like Wobbuffet) in OU.

- regarding APS: while a suspect is a consensus, how exactly the ban must be done (APS/Razzle Dazzle/Shell Smash) is still to be decided. This is why a suspect is needed.

- regarding Innards Out: the fact that Innards out can take down defensive mons is not a sufficient argument, as minor modifications in the sets (running volt switch/parting shot) can protect you with very little loss(this is a really convincing argument by Rumors, back when the thread was actually interesting). While it may be an issue, I think it is more due to how it can remove offensive threats to offensive teams. It's not like stall is rampant right now.

- regarding "cancer": this word should just be prohibited due to how it can be offensive to certain people, and as to how it means nothing relevant in a suspect thread. RNG is indeed cancer, stall is cancer. Yet we are not banning them. Cancer is something extremely subjective, and unrelated to the only criteria for smogon's banning policy: being a competitive pokémon simulator. While there is more precise indications deriving from this, "competitiveness" itself is a really useful tool, especially when it comes to justifying imposter: it makes the game way more competitive by allowing many strategies, as well as creating extremely original sets. The simple fact that some people compare it to IO should lead them to completely reconsider their positions on the meta, because it shows a major misunderstanding of smogon's policies.
This may just seem like nitpicking, but it is necessary as major decisions in big tiers, such as banning Shadow tag and not Gothitelle in OU, were made based on closely-made arguments. A suspect thread shouldn't be "it's cancer ban it" and feeling the need to say it is already saddening.
 
To add to what Lefty said, I feel it may need to be stressed that the mindset of "I don't like it so it should be banned" really should not be applied to suspects and bans. Yeah, it stinks having to deal with things you don't care for when playing. But this sort of thing needs to be looked at as purely an objective manner as possible with as little subjectivity as possible. For example, I really friggin' hate Imposter and Sturdy Shedinja. Always have, probably always will. But, if people came along to argue that they should be banned, I'd argue against them in favor of keeping them around because they're not ban worthy, despite having drawn my ire.

I have the same thing with APS. I dislike Shell Smash and I somewhat dislike Dazzling Majesty, but I'm neutral on those because I honestly am not sure what the best objective choice here is. I also dislike IO, Prankster D. Bond, and Galvanate Explosion, but you guys already saw me argue like crazy about all that a while back.

So, if you're coming in here to discuss something you don't like, please take a step back, take a breath, and analyze it objectively first. And consider that, if we did manage to get rid of something you hate but didn't really deserved to be banned otherwise, it may not necessarily make BH better for you as something else you hate may rear its head without the thing keeping it down. I'm sure we all have visions of what a "perfect metagame" is like in our heads but, I'll be brutally honest: our visions, mine included, are nowhere near perfect.


And no, I didn't buy Flint a vacation. Any discussions I had about WB being "the next suspect" was after it was already declared and, if I remember right, was trying to get people on-topic from discussing IO.
 
Thank you Flint and Lefty for reigning thus discussion in. With that in mind, back to the main subject: Water Bubble.

Smogon OU's Definitions said:
Uncompetetive said:
II.) Uncompetetive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
B.) This can be external factors; think endless battle clause, where the determining factor becomes internet connection over playing skill.
C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).
Broken said:
III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) Important to note that it is a relative statement; a 200/200/200/200/200/200 BST Pokemon with standard movepool would be broken in a metagame where the average is say, 100/100/100/100/100/100, not where the average is 200/200/200/200/200/200
B.) Examples are mostly Pokemon and include strong Ubers like Kyogre, Groudon, and Arceus. These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.
D.) Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but aren't necessarily entirely so.
1.) BP was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to match up, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
2.) While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team match up restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few gimmicky and obscure counters or checks for it.
Unhealthy said:
IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent
A.) These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually, but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
1.) We haven't really had an example of an unhealthy ban yet, but a potential example is Stealth Rock; it certainly is on the mind of every team building experience and games are often steeped in Stealth Rock strategy. Whether or not this adds up to limiting team building skill or battling skill is part of the conversation to be had.
2.) One important thing to note with this is that distribution both matters (in the case of large distributions) and doesn't matter (in the case of low distributions).
a.) If Stealth Rock or Scald weren't so common, they probably would not be as controversial issues as they are.
b.) However, just because something isn't highly distributed, like Shadow Tag, doesn't mean it isn't unhealthy. Some tried to state that Shadow Tag wouldn't be broken on a 10/10/10/10/10/10 BST mon, but this is the wrong way to look at it.
c.) Things aren't broken (or unhealthy or uncompetitive) only in vacuums; they can contribute to the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. Instead, consider how potentially broken elements would be with average distribution on average BST Pokemon. If Shadow Tag was on, let's say 4-5 OU potential Pokemon as opposed to 1-2 and the average BSTs were something like 80/80/80/80/80/80, would it be broken? The take away from this is to not ignore distribution, but if lowly distributed, to assume how the element would take away from team building or battling skill if it was distributed to average pokemon in an average quantity.(Yes, we will provide average statistics)
B.) This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good to great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.
1.) The Mega-Metagross suspect could be said to fall under this umbrella; Mega-Metagross wasn't really broken, but it was the best Pokemon in a game with far too many good to great threats. It was felt that, for the sake of metagame health, we should seek to reduce the number of these threats (however, you'll note the community voted to keep it in the tier).
C.) This is the most controversial and subjective one, and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The OU Council will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
D.) When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.
I realize that these are the definitions for OU, but I think it's good to use them as a jumping off point for BH shen talking about a suspect. According to these definitions, Water Bubble could be Uncompetetive due to being a largely match-up related issue (you either have a Water-Absorber that can save you from a sweep, or you don't and you lose). It could be considered Broken due to how stupidly good it makes the user, with it WB giving the pokemon unparalleled power. You could make an arguement that's it's Unhealthy. By all of these definitions, WB would be considered broken. However, this isn't OU. This is BH! So, by our own definitions...

BH Broken Ability said:
An Ability should be considered for ban based on:
  • "Splashable"ility:
    Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard
  • Extreme Augmentation:
    The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond
Water Bubble is very Splashable (should honestly have called it "splashability") but it currently isn't being used that way in favor of the second option, Extreme Augmentation. It is being used (primarily in the case of POgre) to enhance their wallbreaking power beyond reasonable measure. It's not only able to be used on POgre either, it's splashable on nearly any water type for extraordinary potential! Think of Greninja-Ash with this bad boy, it's faster then nearly everything except Mewtwo-Y and above (while being immune to their main STAB and Prankster), while this would give it absurd power! That is why I believe Water Bubble needs to go, and it needs to go now.
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

NO MONEY? NO JOB? TOO MUCH BAD NEWS??
is a Community Contributor
Just to point out some of the inadequate arguments from last page's nightmare:

- the fact that water bubble is not used on the ladder is NOT an argument. The ladder is mostly trash player that barely know what competitive pokémon is (which is why many people from other tiers have complained of how easy it was to get reqs).
this is wrong. the reason it was easy to get reqs was because people could just grab a copypasta team (such as the ASSIST DON SQUAD) and get reqs easily. the problem is in the current meta, not the ladder because copypasta teams should not be a thing. low ladder bh sucks but let's face it, on the top of the ladder you find people who are actually good.
- regarding APS: while a suspect is a consensus, how exactly the ban must be done (APS/Razzle Dazzle/Shell Smash) is still to be decided. This is why a suspect is needed.
can't we all agree that APS is broken/unhealthy? then why are we standing around suspecting something for like a month when we could just decide on a way to get rid of it and then quickban it?
- regarding Innards Out: the fact that Innards out can take down defensive mons is not a sufficient argument, as minor modifications in the sets (running volt switch/parting shot) can protect you with very little loss(this is a really convincing argument by Rumors, back when the thread was actually interesting). While it may be an issue, I think it is more due to how it can remove offensive threats to offensive teams. It's not like stall is rampant right now.
outside of innards U-Turn is the best option for defensive mons to run: Volt Switch is blocked by grounds, Parting Shot is blocked by Magic Bounce (Prankster is blocked by Dark-types) and Baton Pass passes on bad stuff like Earth Power SpD drops. take CB Primal Groudon for instance: if you click Volt Switch, Primal Groudon gets a free switchin. If you click Parting Shot and it gets bounced back, Primal Groudon gets a free switchin. If you click Baton Pass, then your next mon will have to deal with Leech Seed or w/e. and we all know that giving Primal Groudon free switchins is bad.
- regarding "cancer": this word should just be prohibited due to how it can be offensive to certain people, and as to how it means nothing relevant in a suspect thread. RNG is indeed cancer, stall is cancer. Yet we are not banning them. Cancer is something extremely subjective, and unrelated to the only criteria for smogon's banning policy: being a competitive pokémon simulator. While there is more precise indications deriving from this, "competitiveness" itself is a really useful tool, especially when it comes to justifying imposter: it makes the game way more competitive by allowing many strategies, as well as creating extremely original sets. The simple fact that some people compare it to IO should lead them to completely reconsider their positions on the meta, because it shows a major misunderstanding of smogon's policies.
This may just seem like nitpicking, but it is necessary as major decisions in big tiers, such as banning Shadow tag and not Gothitelle in OU, were made based on closely-made arguments. A suspect thread shouldn't be "it's cancer ban it" and feeling the need to say it is already saddening.
this is true but I feel like people are substituting the word in place of stuff like "broken" or "uncompetitive" as a colloquial term. show me a post where someone has said "x is cancer" and used that as their sole reason for banning x.

honestly I feel like you are making this thread out to be worse than it really is. the metagame is just in a not very good place right now with APS and outards in everywhere and people are just sick of it.
 
Last edited:
can't we all agree that APS is broken/unhealthy? then why are we standing around suspecting something for like a month when we could just decide on a way to get rid of it and then quickban it?
I don't think anyone is disagreeing its broken as a whole. The problem is, which component is the one we need to deal with? We could make some dumb complex ban like "Deo-A with Dazzling and Focus Sash and Shell Smash is banned", but really, please no to stuff like that.

U-Turn is the best option for defensive mons to run: Volt Switch is blocked by grounds, Parting Shot is blocked by Magic Bounce (Prankster is blocked by Dark-types) and Baton Pass passes on bad stuff like Earth Power SpD drops. take CB Primal Groudon for instance: if you click Volt Switch, Primal Groudon gets a free switchin. If you click Parting Shot and it gets bounced back, Primal Groudon gets a free switchin. If you click Baton Pass, then your next mon will have to deal with Leech Seed or w/e. and we all know that giving Primal Groudon free switchins is bad..

I'm just going to ask a question here: if using U-Turn allows the opponent to get an easy KO on a critical wall on your team with IO, is it honestly the best option of the four switch moves?

I'm not getting into that conversation again, but just stop and think about it for a moment please.
 
this is wrong. the reason it was easy to get reqs was because people could just grab a copypasta team (such as the ASSIST DON SQUAD) and get reqs easily. the problem is in the current meta, not the ladder because copypasta teams should not be a thing. low ladder bh sucks but let's face it, on the top of the ladder you find people who are actually good.

can't we all agree that APS is broken/unhealthy? then why are we standing around suspecting something for like a month when we could just decide on a way to get rid of it and then quickban it?

outside of innards U-Turn is the best option for defensive mons to run: Volt Switch is blocked by grounds, Parting Shot is blocked by Magic Bounce (Prankster is blocked by Dark-types) and Baton Pass passes on bad stuff like Earth Power SpD drops. take CB Primal Groudon for instance: if you click Volt Switch, Primal Groudon gets a free switchin. If you click Parting Shot and it gets bounced back, Primal Groudon gets a free switchin. If you click Baton Pass, then your next mon will have to deal with Leech Seed or w/e. and we all know that giving Primal Groudon free switchins is bad.

this is true but I feel like people are substituting the word in place of stuff like "broken" or "uncompetitive" as a colloquial term. show me a post where someone has said "x is cancer" and used that as their sole reason for banning x.

honestly I feel like you are making this thread out to be worse than it really is. the metagame is just in a not very good place right now with APS and outards in everywhere and people are just sick of it.
I may have been overreacting a bit, but I don't think I have that much considering the past page contains stale quoting from other players, memes, offensive terms, arguments showing major misunderstanding of banning policies, derivation from subjects... I am not the only one at all to feel that way.

Regarding how easy it is to get reqs: those people didn't only copy paste team (last guy actually said he just adapted his team to beat dazzle sashmash). Yes, there is good players in the metagame, but unfortunately you don't battle them often enough to justify using checks to otherwise competitively relevant things. My lack of skill is in my opinion quite related to how I can't ever find anyone good to train again, and instead end up getting mad against bad gimmicks.

Your argument about APS litterally applies about any suspect ever: "can't we just find what's wrong and then quickban it?". It is, at least to my eyes, really hard to know what exactly is broken, especially considering how much the meta has shifted. Suspect tests aren't just a necessary procedure that makes banning longer, they are a way to identify what exactly is wrong in a metagame. Identifying the issue here is way harder than it was, for instance, for CFZ (or Fluffy in AAA) yet we went through those. I don't think that a ban we mostly agree on can be found right now(especially when people give bad heterodox solutions like item clause).

U-Turn also has relevant downsides, such as being affected by baneful bunker. Yes, not using it is subpar, but it doesn't justify banning IO alltogether (we're not banning soundproof just because it forces sets to run technoblast). I am not saying Innards Out isn't broken, simply that the reasons people are giving are bad. "pivots moves aren't as automatic as before" isn't a reason to ban something. "my only way to break the opposing team's core was removed instantly" is more like it.

Yes, I may have gone a bit too far on the word "cancer". It simply was a highlight of the low quality of some discussions. However, it shouldn't be used simply because there is people to which this can remind painful memories. Let's just not use it out of politeness for some people that could want to get in that thread, just like you use decent grammar for non native speakers.


I will probably try to play a bit and post actual arguments in this thread later. Right now I just wanted to point out that the debate's quality could be put up (notice how I didn't actually say anything about the meta itself, simply about what people said and how their arguments didn't hold).
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
I may have been overreacting a bit, but I don't think I have that much considering the past page contains stale quoting from other players, memes, offensive terms, arguments showing major misunderstanding of banning policies, derivation from subjects... I am not the only one at all to feel that way.

Regarding how easy it is to get reqs: those people didn't only copy paste team (last guy actually said he just adapted his team to beat dazzle sashmash). Yes, there is good players in the metagame, but unfortunately you don't battle them often enough to justify using checks to otherwise competitively relevant things. My lack of skill is in my opinion quite related to how I can't ever find anyone good to train again, and instead end up getting mad against bad gimmicks.

Your argument about APS litterally applies about any suspect ever: "can't we just find what's wrong and then quickban it?". It is, at least to my eyes, really hard to know what exactly is broken, especially considering how much the meta has shifted. Suspect tests aren't just a necessary procedure that makes banning longer, they are a way to identify what exactly is wrong in a metagame. Identifying the issue here is way harder than it was, for instance, for CFZ (or Fluffy in AAA) yet we went through those. I don't think that a ban we mostly agree on can be found right now(especially when people give bad heterodox solutions like item clause).

U-Turn also has relevant downsides, such as being affected by baneful bunker. Yes, not using it is subpar, but it doesn't justify banning IO alltogether (we're not banning soundproof just because it forces sets to run technoblast). I am not saying Innards Out isn't broken, simply that the reasons people are giving are bad. "pivots moves aren't as automatic as before" isn't a reason to ban something. "my only way to break the opposing team's core was removed instantly" is more like it.

Yes, I may have gone a bit too far on the word "cancer". It simply was a highlight of the low quality of some discussions. However, it shouldn't be used simply because there is people to which this can remind painful memories. Let's just not use it out of politeness for some people that could want to get in that thread, just like you use decent grammar for non native speakers.


I will probably try to play a bit and post actual arguments in this thread later. Right now I just wanted to point out that the debate's quality could be put up (notice how I didn't actually say anything about the meta itself, simply about what people said and how their arguments didn't hold).

I posted something last night, and I have addressed the same opinion, but The Immortal decided to delete (hide from public view) it for some reason.

To make a TL;DR of 100+ lines of giant post I made last night about me saying smic0921 is not my alt, me having 0 intention of conspiracy, and the fact that we need deeper consideration:

* We should not suggest to ban something because it gives "Stress". We should think more logically about how it affects the metagame.

I doubt that E4 Flint would even listen if we say "lets start suspect / vote on Innards Out because I am tired of seeing cancerous Chansey in every matches that screw up the whole game."

What I meant by mentioning Imposter is that Imposter gives a lot of stress but it is not banned due to its power is totally dependent on your own team. If we use the same logic on Imposter, it should be banned because it causes "stress".

Gmu pokeboss9 will now call me Flint's pet
RIP
 
Hey. Been reading for a bit, but had to skip some to reply so if this is off-topic then my bad....

RazzleDazzle is very OP, and I agree that part of it should be banned. And that part is Dazzling/QMagesty. The source of power for a RazzleDazzle set comes from it's immunity to priority. I use it myself and can attest that innards out is the most efficient way to kill a beast that is Razzling and Dazzling. But, if it where to be banned then Triage would have to be too. A Triage Rayquaza running TailGlow/Oblivion Wing combo is,as far as I know, almost unstoppable,nothing but a focus sash(if you can pull of enough damage to actually kill it) and the gimmicky Innards Out.

Also, I believe that it was mentioned that Innards Out right now is mainly to stop RazzleDazzle mons, but becomes a bit of a problem if RazzleDazzle is banned. Its incredibly hard to counter, because a Blissey or Chansey has really low defenses. Your only choice would be to leech seed or poison it.

Water Bubble is also very powerful but I don't believe that its over-powered in any way. It provides an efficient way to break walls such as Giratina, and while it can easily kill many mons on the way, there are mons that easily resist it, such as Mega-Gyrados. Another thing is, the suspect test is unnecessary in my opinion. Water Bubble, while very powerful, isn't that common. Most people don't run it, simply because its a gimmick, and that is a whole spot taken on a team where something more useful can be. Kyogre-P is not that good when running a water bubble set outside of water type moves.

Anyway These are the only problems I see in the meta right now, at least that I can remember.

EDIT: Also an Innards Out mons viability originates from the ability. The moves you use don't matter in the least, and neither does the item. So, unless I'm understanding E4 Flint's banning structure wrong, this should be enough for a ban or at least suspect test. It requires zero skill to use, and the only thing that can resist it is magic guard which is pretty useless outside that one thing. Like the CFZ's it tears a hole in a team effortlessly. Just thought I should mention that.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top