BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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I don't think that APS is broken, but it forces teams to prepare to it because it can quickly sweep a team. Fair options are Unaware and bulky users of Spectral Thief on defence, Mold Breaker priority on offence, and both can't cover everything at once (does Prankster Copycat/Assist Sunsteel Strike/Moongeist Beam break Dazzling?). I would say it's annoying at best as you can run a full team of APS Pokemons (Dazzling, Psychic Surge, Queenly Majesty x2). And I bet that 90% of teams can't deal with all of that.
Shell Smash + Focus Sash is really like cancer (Sash Smash for short?). Am I supposed to run Magic Room to stop that?
Psychic Surge is the less cancerous ability in the triplet, as it can be shut down by other Terrains. It works both ways (on grounded targets) and it is announced and really, how psychic is an important type in offence? Almost every wall resist it, some are immune, and the only mons that are viable in BH and are weak to it are frail anyway (thinking of Pheromosa and Gengar).
So, complete ban? Please no. Responsible use of Dazzling is what is saving us from Triage.
We can argue about (and I'm favorable to) banning Queenly Majesty as it's used to bypass the ability clause.
Pick any two of Focus Sash, Dazzling and Shell Smash can also be an option.
 
Please do not talk about the ramifications of possibly banning/limiting any of the above as evidence for any side e.g. if we ban them, Triage will be broken so we should keep them etc
So, complete ban? Please no. Responsible use of Dazzling is what is saving us from Triage.
Yikes

I'm of the opinion that Dazzling is the broken component in this equation.

The reason why MAMP and others have been finding Shell Smash so unmanageable, in my mind, is not that it's so superior to all other boosting moves, but that its key quality, the +2 Speed, has its importance inflated in a sense (since Pokemon using Shell Smash can't be revenge killed easily because of these abilities), and that its key flaw, the Defense and Special Defense drops, is made more or less irrelevant by Dazzling's priority-blocking ability.

The fact that Dazzling doesn't reveal its appearance makes it unmanageable for at least offensive-leaning teams that used to count on priority to stop runaway sweepers. Not every team is going to be SashSmash spam, contrary to what you might think from playing certain people I could name. Now, every Fake Out against a sweeper is an uncertain proposition.

On the other hand, Psychic Surge (which I'm still not sure about, by the way) doesn't just broadcast its capabilities, but reveals at least one type of move that its user has and effectively precludes the use of priority on one's own team. Both can be tough for stall to deal with, but running Haze and Spectral Thief on non-Unaware things, such as the latter on AV Regen pivots, certainly helps.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-suspects-and-bans-thread.3588586/page-10#post-7211272 - My stance on overall meta, including ASP
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-suspects-and-bans-thread.3588586/page-11#post-7226915 - My stance on applying item clause for limiting number of cancerous focus sash
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-suspects-and-bans-thread.3588586/page-11#post-7226951 - SuperSkyLake's stance on banning Shell Smash instead of applying Item Clause

Shell Smash + Focus Sash is really like cancer (Sash Smash for short?). Am I supposed to run Magic Room to stop that?
I cannot emphasize how much do I desire for Item Clause (1 or 2 for each). What SuperSkyLake has mentioned about differences between Shell Smash and other set-up moves is very true and I agree with it.

I am not emphasizing item clause because I think Shell Smash is broken. The move is slappable to anyone with sh*tloads of Atk/Sp.Atk with appropriate Speed tier.


I am suggesting the other way to alleviate this Sash Smash spams. The best way will be just banning Shell Smash. However, if this is too straight-foward way to ban stuff, applying Item clause will generally solve the issue.

Back to CFZ's. How easy would it have been to deal with Deo-A spam team if only 1 or 2 of them could hold Sash?

Even if there is abuse of Ability Clause with Dazzling & QM shenanigans, would they be able to sweep after lowering their defenses with Shell Smash and taking a nuke damage from something like Groudon or Mewtwo variants?

  • Is APS broken? (obviously, the first talking point)
  • Does the broken element stem from Dazzling, Queenly Majesty and Psychic Surge, or from Focus Sash and Shell Smash, or even ability ignoring moves Moongeist and Sunsteel?
It is potentially broken as hell. Go to UU tier and see how threatening Shell Smash Cloyster is, by simply carrying one priority move (Ice Shard). Cloyster is already hard to be revenge killed after Shell Smash, and how hard would it be to stop something like Rayquaza or Mewtwo after it doubled its speed after Shell Smash with absurdly high offense stats?

The very first time I started playing BH this Gen, I lost first 20 games consecutively because I couldn't find a way to deal with random 'mons spamming Extreme EvoBoost and blocking priorities in exchange of their ability. Extreme EvoBoost boosts all stats by 2, and Shell Smash is virtually the same thing in a sense of provoding a boost (except Extreme Evo Boost grants better dmg to Power Trip and Stored Power) - why would additional defense / special defense would be relevant when they use such boost after holding on with Focus Sash?

I remember last Gen's BH. -Ate users and Sturdinja was a dominant force in the meta, and the whole match in high ladder was full of thrill about predicting King's Shield against -ate FakeSpeeds and Sturdinja switch-in predictions. But all you have to do to win in this Gen is to absentmindedly spamming Shell Smash with anti-priority and getting appropriate improofing wall on your team, or improofing the sweeper itself.

  • Should Dazzling/Queenly Majesty be limited or banned?
Dazzling and Queenly Majesty are the same thing. Please differentiate them.
I would say, if Item Clause cannot be applied or Shell Smash will not be banned, then we will have to consider banning Anti-priority or limiting them to 1 for each team, IMO.

  • Is Psychic Surge more amenable because it clearly announces that priority is negated? Is it better that it negates priority for both players, and all mons or worse? Is it better since it can be negated with another terrain? Is it worse if the other terrains aren't as good?
It is WAY easier to deal with. Psystrike under Psychic Terrain is completely wall-able with appropriate Regen-Vesters. It is much more balanced because it both announces and applies to both players. Here's an example:

- Opponent leads with Primal Groudon. No Desolate Land so you cannot tell what ability does it have.
If we make the worst possible decision:

1. Trying to predict Shell Smash, you press Spectral Thief and get nuked by Choice Band V-Create.
2. After switching to Fur Coat, Groudon gains 2 boosts on Atk / Sp.Atk / Speed and someone in your team has to die next turn.

If sweepers have Psychic Surge, slow U-turns into walls or Spectral Thief can be used to potentially prevent the sweeping. But this is BH. Dazzling / QM can be slapped into even Magikarp (although no one uses it but anyway) and wrong prediction will lead to disastrous consequence, including but not limited to: sacrificing team and having its check severely dented after removing boost or revenge killing, Imposters walled by improofing wall and forced to switch out (giving opponent opportunity to set up once again), or blowing up your Innards Out on that guy with 1 HP.

Despite the fact that I insist Item Clause, I also have some interest in banning Shell Smash. So overall, I think one of these has to be done to stop no-brainer BH meta and go back to serious mind games.
 
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Giving it some thought, I don't think there's any one component here that's broken. Rather, it's myriad of additions and changes that have brought this about.

Gen V: Shell Smash users, particularly Simple Shell Smash Stored Power Jirachi, were often simply answered by an Unaware or a Prankster. Or, in some cases, more unique solutions like Magnet Pull Umbreon. Safety Goggles didn't exist, so it was pretty easy to put the booster to sleep. And 510 didn't exist either and the base stat offenses of most usable Pokemon were a little bit lower, so it was common for something to be able to take a boosted hit and shut the sweeper down.


Gen VI: We lost the bulk gained by 510 and also got a good number of high powered offensive threats, making Unaware and general bulk less able to handle boosters. For example, Gengar went from being a noob trap to a legitimate Pokemon by gaining a Mega form. However, we also got lots of accessible priority as well as Topsy-Turvy. Shell Smashers had to give up a move slot to reliably handle priority abuse and, even then, a simple Prankster Topsy-Turvy would kill all of their momentum. The near-every-battle presence of Fakespeed also meant Focus Sash use was fairly unreliable. Deo-A was barely D-rank and dropped off viability entirely when Protean was banned.


Gen VII: Anti-priority reared its head, shutting down Fakespeed answers to boosters, along with many Prankster moves such as Topsy-Turvy. Dark-types are also basically Prankster-proof as well and, on top of that, got Power Trip, which, unlike Stored Power, has no immunities. Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam now allow any booster to bypass most Unaware Pokemon with the only Pokemon relevant and resistant to both being Mega-Gyarados. This, likewise, caused a drop in Shedinja use, who could answer many boosting sets quite reliably previously. Focus Sash regained popularity from CFZs and, now that Deo-A can shut down the priority that made it nearly useless, can run it to also be incredibly risky for Imposters to switch in on since most sets can OHKO an Imposter while surviving with a Sash. Meanwhile, we received Innards Out, Solgaleo, and Zygarde-C as possible help with the issue, but it certainly wasn't enough.


Looking at it, there's five components to this issue.

1. Shell Smash is still an insane boosting move and most of its checks can now be dealt with by the Smasher.
2. Anti-priority abilities prevent Galvanate from Fakespeeding Smash Sash sets or Prankster from simply bopping them with Topsy-Turvy.
3. Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam nullify most viable Unawares, alongside other possible helpful abilities such as Sturdy Shedinja or general Fur Coat users.
4. Power Trip can now literally blow up everything with enough boosts whereas Stored Power at least had immunities. Additionally, many good Unawares previously, such as Cresselia and Giratina, are weak to the move. STAB Power Trip users are also immune to direct Prankster moves too, which complicates the issue even more.
5. Focus Sash lets Shell Smashers safely smash provided they have no prior damage and them proceed to sweep. This isn't anything new, however.

I feel dealing with any of these would take off the pressure needed to kick boosting from its dominant position. However, I'm not entirely sure which is the biggest offender. It's tempting to simply go after Shell Smash, but I'm not 100% sure that's the correct choice.
 
Anti-Priority Set-Up, while it can be very strong, would not be broken if it was limited to Psychic Surge. I believe that Dazzling/QM should be banned, while Psychic Terrain should not.

Dazzling, aside from the lack of a boost to psychic type moves, is straight up superior to psychic terrain. It doesn't reveal itself until the opponent uses a priority move, often times sacking a pokemon just to find out that they're pokemon did nothing (or even worse, get set up on). Dazzling doesn't run out, and it only affects the user.

Psychic Terrain allows for much more counterplay, as you can put down another terrain (electric is a personal favorite), or stall out the turns. I believe that Shell Smash with Dazzling is broken due to lack of counterplay. Psychic Terrain, on the other hand, has more options for counterplay and encourages diveristy in teambuilding to accomadate for it.

TL;DR - Dazzling is broken, Psychic Surge is not becausw it has more counterplay.

Edit: Forgot to mention, Psychic Surge summons terrain for the entire field, blocking the user from using priority moves as well. This can easily backfire if not played correctly, as an opposing sweeper can take advantage of this.
 
Anti-Priority Set-Up, while it can be very strong, would not be broken if it was limited to Psychic Surge. I believe that Dazzling/QM should be banned, while Psychic Terrain should not.

Dazzling, aside from the lack of a boost to psychic type moves, is straight up superior to psychic terrain. It doesn't reveal itself until the opponent uses a priority move, often times sacking a pokemon just to find out that they're pokemon did nothing (or even worse, get set up on). Dazzling doesn't run out, and it only affects the user.

Psychic Terrain allows for much more counterplay, as you can put down another terrain (electric is a personal favorite), or stall out the turns. I believe that Shell Smash with Dazzling is broken due to lack of counterplay. Psychic Terrain, on the other hand, has more options for counterplay and encourages diveristy in teambuilding to accomadate for it.

TL;DR - Dazzling is broken, Psychic Surge is not becausw it has more counterplay.

Edit: Forgot to mention, Psychic Surge summons terrain for the entire field, blocking the user from using priority moves as well. This can easily backfire if not played correctly, as an opposing sweeper can take advantage of this.
Psychic terrain also sets up terrain for other teamates which means you don't have to restrict yourself to a prio blocking ability to gain immunity since terrain can be run as support. Which is something you forgot to mention.

Also you can't just casually brush off a 50% boost (which is more than adaptability) for the sake of argumentation. If QM was straight up superior to terrain than it would see more use than it, which is not the case.
 
Also you can't just casually brush off a 50% boost (which is more than adaptability) for the sake of argumentation.
Well, you can brush the difference off a little bit. Psychic Terrain vs Adapt, factoring in STAB on both counts, gives PT a mere 12.5% increase in damage over Adaptability with a BP 100 move (effective 225 vs 200). Or, roughly the equivalent difference of using a Mind Plate vs no damage item on average. Now, to be fair, that 12.5% difference on some targets can mean the difference between a OHKO vs a 2HKO or a 2HKO vs a 3HKO and so on. Other targets, not so much.

It's also worth mentioning that Psychic Terrain's boost does have a type-based immunity in Dark-type Pokemon, who aren't exactly rare or even uncommon. Unless you use Miracle Eye, but who even remember that exists?

Of course, this doesn't weigh the other pros and cons of PT vs Adapt (anti-priority, terrain replacement, dual-STAB, etc.), nor does it also consider other sources of boosting which would get more benefit from PT over Adapt, just being nitpicky on damage differences since you brought up Adaptability. Also, I'd probably say it's more fair to compare it to Choice Band/Specs since that's effectively an identical boost.

Also, nitpicky, but Adapt is a 50% boost, it's just factored differently by doubling the STAB boost rather than being calculated separately.


For example, Deoxys and Mewtwo-Y, Psychic Terrain is a no brainer. However, Mewtwo-X, Lunala, Solgaleo, and Hoopa-U all should at least consider Adaptability to benefit their dual STAB if they're running pure offensive sets.

 
Well, you can brush the difference off a little bit. Psychic Terrain vs Adapt, factoring in STAB on both counts, gives PT a mere 12.5% increase in damage over Adaptability with a BP 100 move (effective 225 vs 200). Or, roughly the equivalent difference of using a Mind Plate vs no damage item on average. Now, to be fair, that 12.5% difference on some targets can mean the difference between a OHKO vs a 2HKO or a 2HKO vs a 3HKO and so on. Other targets, not so much.

It's also worth mentioning that Psychic Terrain's boost does have a type-based immunity in Dark-type Pokemon, who aren't exactly rare or even uncommon. Unless you use Miracle Eye, but who even remember that exists?

Of course, this doesn't weigh the other pros and cons of PT vs Adapt (anti-priority, terrain replacement, dual-STAB, etc.), nor does it also consider other sources of boosting which would get more benefit from PT over Adapt, just being nitpicky on damage differences since you brought up Adaptability. Also, I'd probably say it's more fair to compare it to Choice Band/Specs since that's effectively an identical boost.

Also, nitpicky, but Adapt is a 50% boost, it's just factored differently by doubling the STAB boost rather than being calculated separately.


For example, Deoxys and Mewtwo-Y, Psychic Terrain is a no brainer. However, Mewtwo-X, Lunala, Solgaleo, and Hoopa-U all should at least consider Adaptability to benefit their dual STAB if they're running pure offensive sets.
I wasn't comparing adapt to psyterrain, I was comparing psyterrain to QM. Please don't derail the thread from the point so early on, the discussion barely started and you're already arguing irrelevant shit.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
So these are stances we have so far (please let me know if I got one of you wrong):

Psychic Surge:
TBH
Most people weren't concerned too much due to the announcement of the ability.
guan123 & me:

Psychic Surge is not as broken due to the fact that the ability is announced upon the user entering the battle and protects user from anti-priority for limited amount of duration.

ElMustacho:

Psychic Surge has counterplays such as replacement of the terrain itself. Besides many walls are capable of tanking Psychic type moves, even with the boost from the terrain (IMO these include but are not limited to Solgaleo, Yvetal, Aggron, physically defensive Giratina and Zygarde - C).

UselessCrab:

Psychic Surge is rather easier to deal with and to potentially check due to its announcement of its ability. Prankster Haze users or any walls with Spectral Thief can prevent or ruin the set-up.

Oberon Kagé:

Counterplay is much easier due to the announcement.

motherlove:

Both teams are restricted from priority for certain amount of duration. However, 50% boost is something that cannot be neglected.

Rumors:
Some mathematics about Adaptability vs Psychic Terrain


Dazzling & QM:
ElMustacho, me:

Such abilities paired with Focus Sash is cancer.

* ElMustacho emphasized that appropriate & responsible usage can be a check for Triage.

* I emphasize that I doubt any of us want to sacrifice one party slot for Technician / Skill Link Pheromosa or Magic Room (at least Pheromosa sets are somewhat viable.)

UselessCrab:

He has same (or at least has similar) idea about Sash-Smash as I do:

Shell Smash is a substitute for Extreme EvoBoost. Defense drops are very irrelevant because most users are holding Sash. Your team will still die because revenge killing without further harm is impossible without Mold Breaker priorities. Also the unappearance of the ability is very dangerous, which means any attempt of the usage of priority move will result in a death of one of your party member or extra turn of set up.

Rumors:

RIP -ate users.
Unstoppable when paired with Sunsteel / Moongeist. Power Trip becomes a nuke after safely Shell Smashing.
Outtard In, Woofdog Solgaleo, Diabetes Zygarde-C isn't enough to stop this boost spam.

Oberon Kagé:

Dazzling permenantly protecting user from priority is something to point out, as well as not being announced until somebody attempts to use priority move.


My continuous repetition, this issue can be resolved by limiting ATP, Shell Smash, or by applying Item Clause:

* MMY will NEVER survive Primal Don's V-Create after Shell Smash boost.

* Deo-A will go back to its grave.

* No longer will you see teams with 5 Shell Smashers who never improofs and simply eliminates Imposter with one explosive Chansey.

* No longer will everyone can "slappably" hold Sash and be able revenge kill regardless of stat distributions (due to the introduction of Spectral Thief almost anything can do this. Frail ones can just run Magic Guard to avoid SR).
 
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Anti-Priority Set-Up, while it can be very strong, would not be broken if it was limited to Psychic Surge. I believe that Dazzling/QM should be banned, while Psychic Terrain should not.

Dazzling, aside from the lack of a boost to psychic type moves, is straight up superior to psychic terrain. It doesn't reveal itself until the opponent uses a priority move, often times sacking a pokemon just to find out that they're pokemon did nothing (or even worse, get set up on). Dazzling doesn't run out, and it only affects the user.

Psychic Terrain allows for much more counterplay, as you can put down another terrain (electric is a personal favorite), or stall out the turns. I believe that Shell Smash with Dazzling is broken due to lack of counterplay. Psychic Terrain, on the other hand, has more options for counterplay and encourages diveristy in teambuilding to accomadate for it.

TL;DR - Dazzling is broken, Psychic Surge is not becausw it has more counterplay.

Edit: Forgot to mention, Psychic Surge summons terrain for the entire field, blocking the user from using priority moves as well. This can easily backfire if not played correctly, as an opposing sweeper can take advantage of this.
You meantion that Psychic Surge has more counterplay due to the ability to set other terrains, which obviously doesn't help against Dazzling, but you fail to mention counterplay for Dazzling that doesn't affect Psychic Surge - namely moldbreaker and clones.
 
So these are stances we have so far (please let me know if I got one of you wrong):

Psychic Surge:
TBH
Most people weren't concerned too much due to the announcement of the ability.
guan123 & me:

Psychic Surge is not as broken due to the fact that the ability is announced upon the user entering the battle and protects user from anti-priority for limited amount of duration.

ElMustacho:

Psychic Surge has counterplays such as replacement of the terrain itself. Besides many walls are capable of tanking Psychic type moves, even with the boost from the terrain (IMO these include but are not limited to Solgaleo, Yvetal, Aggron, physically defensive Giratina and Zygarde - C).

UselessCrab:

Psychic Surge is rather easier to deal with and to potentially check due to its announcement of its ability. Prankster Haze users or any walls with Spectral Thief can prevent or ruin the set-up.

Oberon Kagé:

Counterplay is much easier due to the announcement.

motherlove:

Both teams are restricted from priority for certain amount of duration. However, 50% boost is something that cannot be neglected.

Rumors:
Some mathematics about Adaptability vs Psychic Terrain


Dazzling & QM:
ElMustacho, me:

Such abilities paired with Focus Sash is cancer.

* ElMustacho emphasized that appropriate & responsible usage can be a check for Triage.

* I emphasize that I doubt any of us want to sacrifice one party slot for Technician / Skill Link Pheromosa or Magic Room (at least Pheromosa sets are somewhat viable.)

UselessCrab:

He has same (or at least has similar) idea about Sash-Smash as I do:

Shell Smash is a substitute for Extreme EvoBoost. Defense drops are very irrelevant because most users are holding Sash. Your team will still die because revenge killing without further harm is impossible without Mold Breaker priorities. Also the unappearance of the ability is very dangerous, which means any attempt of the usage of priority move will result in a death of one of your party member or extra turn of set up.

Rumors:

RIP -ate users.
Unstoppable when paired with Sunsteel / Moongeist. Power Trip becomes a nuke after safely Shell Smashing.
Outtard In, Woofdog Solgaleo, Diabetes Zygarde-C isn't enough to stop this boost spam.

Oberon Kagé:

Dazzling permenantly protecting user from priority is something to point out, as well as not being announced until somebody attempts to use priority move.


My continuous repetition, this issue can be resolved by limiting ATP, Shell Smash, or by applying Item Clause:

* MMY will NEVER survive Primal Don's V-Create after Shell Smash boost.

* Deo-A will go back to its grave.

* No longer will you see teams with 5 Shell Smashers who never improofs and simply eliminates Imposter with one explosive Chansey.

* No longer will everyone can "slappably" hold Sash and be able revenge kill regardless of stat distributions (due to the introduction of Spectral Thief almost anything can do this. Frail ones can just run Magic Guard to avoid SR).
I'm totally fine with Dazzling and Focus Sash, Focus Sash and Shell Smash or Shell Smash and Dazzling. They, in order, check -Ates (even if they switch on a Boomburst), bring managable frail firepower (easy to imposterproof with Unburden) and bring firepower that with correct prediction can actually be stopped on tracks (ask that to pdon with V-create) It's when they are all together that it gets on my nerves.
Now, numbers on Psychic Surge. Here the sets used:
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Life Orb
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Psystrike
- Moongeist Beam
- Shell Smash

Aggron-Mega @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer
- Rapid Spin

Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Precipice Blades
- Extreme Speed
- Bolt Strike

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Spore
- Recover
- Dragon Tail

Heracross-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Drain Punch
- Leech Life
- Horn Leech

Kyogre-Primal @ Mystic Water
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Volt Switch
- Water Shuriken
- Core Enforcer


They more or less are reasonable sets (they don't form a team) that are supposed to be benchmarks, but basically is Mewtwo against every other set. A small description of each comes below.
  1. Mewtwo-Mega-Y: Psychic Surge user. Runs a moveset that allows Yveltal to counter it because imposters. We are trying to make it realistic.
  2. Aggron-Mega: Superior mixed defenses. Only STAB SE hits can OHKO it.
  3. Groudon-Primal: Physical wallbreaker that happens to have a fairly good defense.
  4. Giratina: Utility bulky Pokemon, mostly used to impede the opponents.
  5. Heracross-Mega: Triage user, and the bulkiest viable weak-to-psychic pokemon.
  6. Kyogre-Primal: Just like Groudon, just a reflective role.
Mewtwo-Mega-Y vs Aggron-Mega
Mewtwo-Mega-Y's best chance is Earth Power, which 2HKOes.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aggron-Mega: 211-250 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Aggron-Mega can then U-turn away or attack it with Spectral Thief.
Meanwhile Psystrike is 3HKOing only because of Life Orb.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aggron-Mega: 113-134 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO

Mewtwo-Mega-Y vs Groudon-Primal
Life is hard for Groudon-Primal, as Earth Power packs a punch.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 416-491 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now lets suppose for a moment that Mewtwo-Mega-Y believes that Groudon-Primal is running Levitate to attract its common checks. How is Psystrike doing?
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 317-374 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
"The Opposing Groudon-Primal used V-Create! Mewtwo-Mega-Y lost 90,1% of its health! Mewtwo-Mega-Y fainted!"

Mewtwo-Mega-Y vs Giratina
Now this is interesting, as Psystrike outdamages Moongeist Beam.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Giratina: 407-480 (80.7 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 268-317 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is an important fact, as it shows that Psychic Terrain boosted STAB is stronger than SE. Not enough to kill Giratina. That's sad. (That's not really evident, as we are targeting different defenses. However, if the defenses were equals, that would be clear)
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Giratina: 361-426 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mewtwo-Mega-Y vs Heracross-Mega
Obviously Psystrike is a no brainer choice.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heracross-Mega: 842-993 (231.3 - 272.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ok, clap your hands, Psychic Surge killed something. But that's overkill, Psystrike alone would be enough (no Life Orb, no Psychic Surge).
And how is Heracross-Mega staying in? It clearly cannot outspeed or outprioritize Mewtwo-Mega-Y, and neither it can survive a hit. If Mewtwo-Mega-Y was a dazzler, at least it could have tricked Heracross-Mega to switch in. But Psychic Surge is evident, and after all, in 5 turns it's going to end, and that allows Heracross to murder Mewtwo-Mega-Y with Triage.
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 504-594 (142.7 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mewtwo-Mega-Y vs Kyogre-Primal
Psystrike is the best move here.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 520-614 (152 - 179.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Finally! Something viable that gets killed due to Psychic Surge!
...
...
Ok you had your 3 seconds of happiness, now back to real business.
This Kyogre-Primal, like the majority of its friends Kyogre-Primal, sports a bad defense. Read it again. Baaaaad defense. It's 100% not willing to stay in to take a Psystrike. Was it Psychic at its place, it could have survived that and be able to retaliate back, but that's not the case. So what can it do? It switches out.
Mewtwo-Mega-Y loses his KO. The end.

Psychic is not a good attacking type. And Psychic Surge isn't powerful enough to make it effective against the majority of BH users. Psychic Surge isn't broken. At any moment we could have it replaced with another terrain, at any moment we could have played a scarf to surprise and kill Mewtwo-Mega-Y, and at any moment we could have switched in a dark type Pokemon, like Greninja-Ash, to absorb and thus negate Psychic attacks.

End of my discourse.

Out of context.

Has anyone noticed that the suspect is full of Sash Smash? I only encountered 1 WB in 14 matches. What are we suspecting again?

Editing because you say it's unreadable. I think it isn't but whatever.
 
Last edited:

GL Volkner

[12:15:34] @Thinkerino: You're an animal
is a Tiering Contributor
I'm totally fine with Dazzling and Focus Sash, Focus Sash and Shell Smash or Shell Smash and Dazzling. They, in order, check -Ates (even if they switch on a Boomburst), bring managable frail firepower (easy to imposterproof with Unburden) and bring firepower that with correct prediction can actually be stopped on tracks (ask that to pdon with V-create) It's when they are all together that it gets on my nerves.
Now, numbers on Psychic Surge. Here the sets used:
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Life Orb
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Psystrike
- Moongeist Beam
- Shell Smash

Aggron-Mega @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer
- Rapid Spin

Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Precipice Blades
- Extreme Speed
- Bolt Strike

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Spore
- Recover
- Dragon Tail

Heracross-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Drain Punch
- Leech Life
- Horn Leech

Kyogre-Primal @ Mystic Water
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Volt Switch
- Water Shuriken
- Core Enforcer


They more or less are reasonable sets (they don't form a team) that are supposed to be benchmarks, but basically is Mewtwo against every other set. A small description of each comes below. I'm also picking names for them.
  1. Mewtwo-Mega-Y: Psychic Surge user. Runs a moveset that allows Yveltal to counter it because imposters. We are trying to make it realistic. (Adam)
  2. Aggron-Mega: Superior mixed defenses. Only STAB SE hits can OHKO it. (Beatrix)
  3. Groudon-Primal: Physical wallbreaker that happens to have a fairly good defense. (Charles)
  4. Giratina: Utility bulky Pokemon, mostly used to impede the opponents. (Diana)
  5. Heracross: Triage user, and the bulkiest viable weak-to-psychic pokemon. (Edward)
  6. Kyogre-Primal: Just like Groudon, just a reflective role. (Felicity)
Adam vs Beatrix
Adam's best chance is Earth Power, which 2HKOes.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aggron-Mega: 211-250 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Beatrix can then U-turn away or attack it with Spectral Thief.
Meanwhile Psystrike is 3HKOing only because of Life Orb.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aggron-Mega: 113-134 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO

Adam vs Charles
Life is hard for Charles, as Earth Power packs a punch.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 416-491 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now lets suppose for a moment that Adam believes that Charles is running Levitate to attract its common checks. How is Psystrike doing?
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 317-374 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
"The Opposing Charles used V-Create! Adam lost 90,1% of its health! Adam fainted!"

Adam vs Diana
Now this is interesting, as Psystrike outdamages Moongeist Beam.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Giratina: 407-480 (80.7 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 268-317 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is an important fact, as it shows that Psychic Terrain boosted STAB is stronger than SE. Not enough to kill Diana. That's sad. (That's not really evident, as we are targeting different defenses. However, if the defenses were equals, that would be clear)
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Giratina: 361-426 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Adam vs Edward
Obviously Psystrike is a no brainer choice.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heracross-Mega: 842-993 (231.3 - 272.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ok, clap your hands, Psychic Surge killed something. But that's overkill, Psystrike alone would be enough (no Life Orb, no Psychic Surge).
And how is Edward staying in? He clearly cannot outspeed or outprioritize Adam, and neither he can survive a hit. If Adam was a dazzler, at least he could have tricked Edward to switch in. But Psychic Surge is evident, and after all, in 5 turns it's going to end, and that allows Edward to murder Adam with Triage.
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 504-594 (142.7 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Adam vs Felicity
Psystrike is the best move here.
252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 520-614 (152 - 179.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Finally! Something viable that gets killed due to Psychic Surge!
...
...
Ok you had your 3 seconds of happiness, now back to real business.
Felicity, like the majority of her friends Kyogre-Primal, sports a bad defense. Read it again. Baaaaad defense. She's 100% not willing to stay in to take a Psystrike. Was it Psychic at its place, she could have survived that and be able to retaliate back, but that's not the case. So what can she do? She switches out.
Adam loses his KO. The end.

Psychic is not a good attacking type. And Psychic Surge isn't powerful enough to make it effective against the majority of BH users. Psychic Surge isn't broken. At any moment we could have it replaced with another terrain, at any moment we could have played a scarf to surprise and kill Adam, and at any moment we could have switched in a dark type Pokemon, like Greninja-Ash, to absorb and thus negate Psychic attacks.

End of my discourse.

P.S.

Has anyone noticed that the suspect is full of Sash Smash? I only encountered 1 WB in 14 matches. What are we suspecting again?
But what about Evan and Eliza? Don't they counter Felicity with the support of Jade? Also, Zane could easily wall Edward with some prior Stealth Rock support from Ben.

I mean, it was easier when motherlove only had one name for one thing that was the focus of his post, but all of these names make your post very confusing to read. Can you please edit so it's a little easier to understand?

In addition, PLEASE DON'T DO THIS. It makes your post much harder to read and makes people inclined to dismiss it. It's a general eyesore and we don't need excessive formatting to have emphasis drawn to your points - We'll read your post and formatting responsibly makes us more inclined to read it.

Also, yeah the suspect ladder's been full of Shell Smash. Honestly, I don't think that the broken component is Shell Smash or Focus Sash, because those things are completely fine on their own - Razzle Dazzle makes it that much more difficult to revenge kill these setup sweepers. Priority takes advantage of the defense drops gained by the Razzle Dazzler, which is essentially rendered irrelevant due to the presence of Dazzling (unless you're running Mold Breaker.) This point has already been brought up already and I'm not that sure why we're still discussing an item clause or unbanning Shadow Tag (even though that's OBVIOUSLY the best solution). I'd write more but I feel like this says enough (and I'm lazy.)

Tl;Dr: Format responsibly, don't rename as many things as you possibly can and ban Razzle Dazzle.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Has anyone noticed that the suspect is full of Sash Smash? I only encountered 1 WB in 14 matches. What are we suspecting again?
The suspect is full of Sash Smash? This meta is full of Sash Smash.

If you were playing some games on suspect ladder, you might have seen a user who continuously uses spam team. (Alt name: Spreading Cancer). And the team is hidden over here:

Cancer (Chansey) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Innards Out
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Final Gambit
- Whirlwind
- Milk Drink

Cancer (Chansey) @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Innards Out
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Magic Coat
- Whirlwind
- Milk Drink

Cancer (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Metal Burst
- Final Gambit
- Milk Drink
- Whirlwind

Cancer (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Def / 180 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Metal Burst
- Milk Drink
- Aromatherapy

Cancer (Chansey) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Destiny Bond
- Perish Song
- Milk Drink

Cancer (Gengar-Mega) (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
- Secret Sword


So, why are you even doing this on suspect ladder of WB and APS?

TBH, I started doing this for entertainment. But if I were to express the reason relevant to the thread itself:
This meta has been stressing a hell out of me. I almost throw up with disgust every time I see Sash Smash spam teams that improofs with Innards Out.


How does team even make match with standard teams?

See 2 explosive Chansey on the first two members? They usually get rid of anyone who threatens Mega Gengar's late game line-up. They include Yvetal, Gyarados-M, Groudon-P, etc.

Water Bubble has low chance of killing this explosive Chansey so I am usually mandated to switch to Imposter to take hits.

Once 2 Innards Out are gone, opponent is completely off guard and starts using physical sweeper, hits the Chansey with Sash, eats 900+ Metal Burst and dies, and the next guy dies with Destiny Bond.

Formerly I had Refrigerate Kyurem-W but it forces switches so I decided to have Mega Gengar under illusion to nuke Giratina and Zygarde-C, and a last resort to stop Fighting types once Outtards In's are gone.


Posting this gimmick team is very irrelevant to suspect discussion thread!

I wouldn't say so. This is to express that:

Water Bubble:

* Without something like Water Absorb your team is forced to have your Imposter tank the nuke hit or use your Innards Out.
* Unclear chance of Innards Out bomb activated with WB attacks makes Water Bubble user difficult to be shut down.
* (As you see in the team above) if no walls resist Water moves, one of your team will die or be on the verge of death every time Water Bubble user switches in.

Anti Priority Set-up:

* My team has no way to stop them other than by activating Innards Out hydrogen bomb or copying with Imposter, especially if they hold Sashes.

* I can't take advantage from SashBurst-Prankster Chansey if Sash is hold. They will survive Metal Burst and I will have to press D-Bond; however, experienced players spend a turn to set up, knowing that Chansey with 1 HP is very passive.

* If an opponent chooses to save its anti-priority set up until all explosive Chansey are gone, it is a trouble for me. This is usually very unsuccessful due to the fact that opponent loses Improofing wall due to Innards Out explosions or losing 1v1 Imposter match-ups. However, if I face APS user when I lack IO or Imposter, just like it happens in regular metagame, it is over. No priority. Prankster Perish Song is blocked by Anti-priority ability, and if SR is up, I have to press D-Bond.


Then why did you have to use this cancer team to give such message?

Sorry, I could make better example. But this is some sort of metaphor of the overall metagame:

Innards Out:
It stands for: decision to succumb and forfeit to ASP sweepers. Innards Out is used to shut them down as last resort that priority users cannot, so it is relevant.

Imposter:
This meta is a food chain. Just like agar.io, if you are facing someone superior, you can't do a shet. Imposter user can copy and beat whomever that is unprepared to face itself with 255 base hp and 1.5 boost on each defensive stats.

Magic Bounce:
Some teams do have this, some teams do not. This causes stress to opponent who try to set up and force them to go violent. I can see something like Primal Groudon or MMX comes out from opposing after having other setters' Stealth Rock deflected on their side by Magic Bounce Chansey. tl;dr: this is metaphor of rage & offensive actions and tactics.

Prankster:
This is the exclusive case when you can do shet to the one who is on higher food chain. You can fool them when they lack anti-priority, and this was very common last gen. But this gen, barely any sweepers are loathed by the likes of Topsy-Turvy or Encore.

Illusion:
It stands for all gimmicks or exclusive counters for the meta. Ice Beam for Gengar is almost unexpected due to Spore or Normalize Entrainment providing much better set-up opportunities and Gengar's ability to sweep with only Moongeist Beam / Ghost Judgment and Secret Sword.

My Chansey team used to have 6 Chansey until Giratina, Zygarde-C, and Audino stressed me out too much. That's why I added Gengar with unique moveset.

If we were to relate this to Water Bubble:

My team used to have couple decent Regenvest core until Water Bubble stressed me out too much. That's why I added Water Absorb and Regenvest Gyarados.

If we were to make things quite unrealistic and exaggerated:

My team used to have less exclusive sets against threats until Sash Smash stressed me too much. That's why I added Magic Room.

...
I hope no one will ever say that, by us solving this issue in this suspect.
 
I wasn't comparing adapt to psyterrain, I was comparing psyterrain to QM. Please don't derail the thread from the point so early on, the discussion barely started and you're already arguing irrelevant shit.
Sorry, misread the alert feed and thought I was replying in the main BH topic. Didn't mean to derail on this one.



RNGIsCancer If you're cataloging everyone's opinion on this matter, then mine accurately is...

  • Dazzling / QM - Neutral, though would be strongly in favor of treating them as the same ability for Ability Clause, along with other duplicate abilities like Mold / Terra / Turbo
  • Psychic Terrain - Slightly against a ban due to telegraphing, additional counter play, and potential to backfire
  • Shell Smash and Power Trip / Stored Power - Neutral
  • Focus Sash - Moderately against a ban
  • Complex Bans - No opinion until one or more options are seriously discussed
  • Item Clause - Strongly against. No other meta I'm aware of, except maybe item-focused metas, whether OM or standard, uses Item Clause except VGC and Battle Spot, which are not Smogon metas.
 
After taking 2 weeks of break from BH, I can't say I am completely up to date as to what the latest trend have. However, I would like to have a really pragmatic approach:

We all agree that something is wrong with the meta and that it is somewhat related to anti-priority (since it wasn't and issue last gen). Basically, we all agree that we will have to ban something, and it, from what I have seen, is mainly a discussion between banning all APS abilities, banning Dazzling and QM, and banning Shell Smash (Item Clause should NOT be a thing, we don't even have Species clause).
Additionnally, I think we mostly agree that banning ASP entirely would fix the issue. The main question is that it may be too radical: banning Z-moves would have fixed the meta as well, but banning CFZ was a better solution
As such, I am asking for a suspect over Shell Smash because:
- if it turns out that it is Shell Smash that is the issue, we ban it
- if it turns out that ASP is the issue, it will remain so during the suspect, so we will know if it needs to be banned

This solution may not be perfect because it does not help to know if Psychic Surge is fine. However I think that doing an "undirect suspect" is best simply because banning any form of ASP is taking the risk of polluting everything with Triage, which would most likely end up banned if ASP is banned.
 
So these are stances we have so far (please let me know if I got one of you wrong):

Oberon Kagé:

Counterplay is much easier due to the announcement.


Oberon Kagé:

Dazzling permenantly protecting user from priority is something to point out, as well as not being announced until somebody attempts to use priority move.
It was more or less Psychic Terrain is easier due to more counterplay in general, but accurate overall.

We all agree that something is wrong with the meta and that it is somewhat related to anti-priority (since it wasn't and issue last gen). Basically, we all agree that we will have to ban something, and it, from what I have seen, is mainly a discussion between banning all APS abilities, banning Dazzling and QM, and banning Shell Smash (Item Clause should NOT be a thing, we don't even have Species clause).
Additionnally, I think we mostly agree that banning ASP entirely would fix the issue. The main question is that it may be too radical: banning Z-moves would have fixed the meta as well, but banning CFZ was a better solution
As such, I am asking for a suspect over Shell Smash because:
- if it turns out that it is Shell Smash that is the issue, we ban it
- if it turns out that ASP is the issue, it will remain so during the suspect, so we will know if it needs to be banned
I agree that shell smash offers an absurd power boost, while dazzling/QM/PT negates all downsides (practically), but I don't think that banning shell smash is the best idea. Shell Smash without Anti-Priority is more or less balanced, as by shell smashing you leave yourself much, much more vulnerable.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
I agree that shell smash offers an absurd power boost, while dazzling/QM/PT negates all downsides (practically), but I don't think that banning shell smash is the best idea. Shell Smash without Anti-Priority is more or less balanced, as by shell smashing you leave yourself much, much more vulnerable.
That is why I emphasize on Item Clause, although it might sound like a sudden change for the whole metagame.
Shell Smash is best when you are still bulky enough or running Sash (best example is Cloyster in UU).
My continuous repetition, this issue can be resolved by limiting ATP, Shell Smash, or by applying Item Clause:

* MMY will NEVER survive Primal Don's V-Create after Shell Smash boost.

* Deo-A will go back to its grave.

* No longer will you see teams with 5 Shell Smashers who never improofs and simply eliminates Imposter with one explosive Chansey.

* No longer will everyone can "slappably" hold Sash and be able revenge kill regardless of stat distributions (due to the introduction of Spectral Thief almost anything can do this. Frail ones can just run Magic Guard to avoid SR).
Trust me, # of people who use Shell Smash will significantly decrease if limited number of 'mons are allowed to hold them.

No Sash? Then Shell Smasher is very vulnerable. This meta is now filled with nuke damages like Triage Rayquaza, Groudon-P, and Water Bubble.
Anti-priority won't help Shell Smash so much because barely anyone is safe from strong attackers after a Shell Smash boost.
 
...you fail to mention counterplay for
Dazzling that doesn't affect Psychic Surge - namely moldbreaker and clones.
Mold Breaker is very weak this Generation.
Its main use was to kill Shedinja and set hazards on Magic Bounce.

Shedinja dies to Sunsteel and Moongeist.
Magic Bounce gives you bad outs;
1.) If you fail the prediction the opponent sets up hazards / stat boosts.
2.) If your opponent predicts your Magic Bounce switch in they U-Turn out and send out a wallbreaker.
3.) If you have a losing matchup against the hazard setter you die 1on1.
4.) If you are in a self walling matchup, Core Enforcer makes you require 2 Magic Bounce to be safe.

Just use Prankster Haze/Defog/Destiny Bond/...
Here we have the connection to APS;

Since it is so easy keeping the field free of hazards Focus Sash becomes very reliable.
Sash works best with Shell Smash, the defensive drops can work against the Imposter.

On suspect ladder Z-Testing peaked #1 using scarf Chansey.


Has anyone noticed that the suspect is full of Sash Smash? I only encountered 1 WB in 14 matches. What are we suspecting again?.
I can confirm.

Sash works on almost everything and not just APS.
Almost every other item lost effectivness;

Lum used to be blocking Dark Void and protectiong Sturdinja from status.
= both are no longer a thread, run Sash now.

(Spooky) Plate used to make Imposterproof and give a much better Ghost move than Shadow Ball.
= better run Moongeist + Sash now.

Soul Dew made Mega Latitwins very powerful.
= better use Sash Psyterrain MMY now.

-ate needed more power (Life Orb, Plates...) to get important KOs
= better use Sash D/QM now

Kartana is made to be a Focus Sasher.


MMY does not need Earth Power to 1HKO P-Don in Psyterrain.
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 426-503 (105.4 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 377-445 (110.5 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


...
  • Does the broken element stem from Dazzling, Queenly Majesty and Psychic Surge, or from Focus Sash and Shell Smash, or even ability ignoring moves Moongeist and Sunsteel.
From Power Trip in my opinion.
 
MMY does not need Earth Power to 1HKO P-Don in Psyterrain.
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 426-503 (105.4 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 377-445 (110.5 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Commenting on MMY.
That happens because Psychic targets spd. It's just really a choice between Psystrike and Psychic (depending on how you want to hit).
To be fair MMY needs both the terrain and the Life Orb to score that KO. And because of that, it isn't Sash Smash.
 
Commenting on MMY.
That happens because Psychic targets spd. It's just really a choice between Psystrike and Psychic (depending on how you want to hit).
To be fair MMY needs both the terrain and the Life Orb to score that KO. And because of that, it isn't Sash Smash.
If it was smashsash it could just shell smash in front of don and kill it after. But even the said you provided OHKOs don so idk why you even bring a "let's suppose" in there.
Also worth noting that it easily 2HKOs aggron if it's not running filter (252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aggron-Mega: 192-229 (55.8 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
If it was sashsmash with blue flare it would OHKO it too without lo.

But aside from all that, theses calcs don't really prove shit. I could post an equal amount of calcs of mmy OHKOing stuff if you'd like an it wouldn't really prove shit either.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Commenting on MMY.
That happens because Psychic targets spd. It's just really a choice between Psystrike and Psychic (depending on how you want to hit).
To be fair MMY needs both the terrain and the Life Orb to score that KO. And because of that, it isn't Sash Smash.
If it was smashsash it could just shell smash in front of don and kill it after. But even the said you provided OHKOs don so idk why you even bring a "let's suppose" in there.
Also worth noting that it easily 2HKOs aggron if it's not running filter (252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aggron-Mega: 192-229 (55.8 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
If it was sashsmash with blue flare it would OHKO it too without lo.

But aside from all that, theses calcs don't really prove shit. I could post an equal amount of calcs of mmy OHKOing stuff if you'd like an it wouldn't really prove shit either.
Barely seen any MMY running Life Orb. It is still vulnerable to Imposters, and it is going to be killed with any physical attacker with Choice Scarf.

And why did we shift from Sash Smash to Life Orbs and stuff?
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

NO MONEY? NO JOB? TOO MUCH BAD NEWS??
is a Community Contributor
Let's talk about INN(H)ARDS OUT

So basically, as you all know, Innards Out is usually used on Pokémon with high base HP and low defenses, usually Chansey. When the opponent brings out a threat such as a Shell Smash user, then the Innards Out user can just switch in and KO the threat unless it has Magic Guard.

I think that Innards Out is a result of too many threats in the meta. There are sweepers out there that can OHKO Imposter Chansey if they win the speed tie, meaning that counterplay to certain threats is often reduced to little more than "run Prankster Haze which is kinda bad oh and you have to switch in on the Shell Smash" outside of Innards Out.

If we do get rid of Razzle Dazzle however (which we should imo), then Innards Out might actually be a problem. Defensive teams can abuse it to deal with the answers opponents have, while offensive teams can grab momentum practically for free. Given that good sweepers, if the ban is made, require some skill to set up, I feel that Innards Out might turn into little more than a mindless switchin that puts the setup opportunity the other player found to waste.

Voting no ban on Water Bubble unless RNGIsCancer shares a team with less than 4 Chanseys
 
Barely seen any MMY running Life Orb. It is still vulnerable to Imposters, and it is going to be killed with any physical attacker with Choice Scarf.

And why did we shift from Sash Smash to Life Orbs and stuff?
No it isn't. I've explicitly made him imposter proof by pairing it with a Yveltal. Why I didn't use Focus Sash? Because without it MMY is a lot less of a problem.
If it was smashsash it could just shell smash in front of don and kill it after. But even the said you provided OHKOs don so idk why you even bring a "let's suppose" in there.
Also worth noting that it easily 2HKOs aggron if it's not running filter (252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aggron-Mega: 192-229 (55.8 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
If it was sashsmash with blue flare it would OHKO it too without lo.

But aside from all that, theses calcs don't really prove shit. I could post an equal amount of calcs of mmy OHKOing stuff if you'd like an it wouldn't really prove shit either.
That proves my point. The broken part isn't Psychic Surge, as it has an fair number of counterplay and Psychic Surge itself isn't powerful enough, since despite Psychic STAB on neutral targets outdamages SE coverage, it doesn't provide additional OHKOes. MMY needing a Shell Smash to break through defensive mons shows that Shell Smash is the problem.
 
Last edited:

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Let's talk about INN(H)ARDS OUT

...........

Voting no ban on Water Bubble unless RNGIsCancer shares a team with less than 4 Chanseys

I am afraid that you might hate this worse:

Zygarde-Complete @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Final Gambit
- Stealth Rock
- Defog
- Aromatherapy

Zygarde-Complete @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Final Gambit
- Stealth Rock
- Switcheroo
- Aromatherapy

Zygarde-Complete @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpD
Careful Nature
- Thousand Waves / Anchor Shot
- Perish Song
- Baneful Bunker
- Shore Up

Chansey @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Innards Out
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Magic Coat
- Whirlwind
- Milk Drink

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Fake Out
- Final Gambit
- Milk Drink
- Whirlwind

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 156 HP / 252 Def / 100 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Metal Burst
- Milk Drink
- Aromatherapy
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
My opinion:
-Trash formatting is trash and makes reading posts difficult. Particularly RNGIsCancer use less bold dude if half your post is bold the bold means literally nothing.
-Stop bringing up trash sets, they add nothing to the discussion @ everyone.
-We don't need irrelevant posts cataloguing the opinions of others, if people wanted to know who stands where they would read that person's post(s). Cataloguing of the relevant pro-ban and anti-ban arguments is good IF someone intelligent does it so they actually include the good arguments and not just link every post, as most of the posts in this thread are garbage and many of the arguments have little to no evidence backing them up and are based upon low ladder experiences.


DazzleSmash:
The problem is not Shell Smash, Focus Sash, ability-ignoring moves, or Power Trip/Stored Power. The problem is definitely in the ability, particularly Dazzling/QM. Last gen, Shell Smash sweepers were always hindered by the prevalence of -ate FakeSpeed munching on their -1 Defense stat. This gen introduced Triage and Galvanize (more checks to SmashSpam), but DQM counters these strategies nicely, making them very difficult to beat. Sash is not the problem, as again FakeSpeed checks sash, and also rocks exist. Ability-ignoring moves aren't the problem either. There are bulky mons that aren't weak to either (see: ZygC, Steel-types, MGyar [bonus points for resisting both]), and they offer a nice way to bypass Sturdinja (which is good because it means less people complain about how broken it is <_<). Stored Power was never much of a problem due to Dark-types+Steel-types being common. Power Trip is strong, but Prank Haze exists, as well as bulky mons that can take one hit (e.g. big Zyg) and remove via Metal Burst or something. The point is none of these are broken and some of them can even be taken advantage of by halfway decent players. The problem rests solely on the shoulders of DQM. These abilities prevent priority revenge killing, limiting reliable revenge killing to basically Imposter and Innards Out. Prank Haze doesn't work cuz these mons can be strong enough to get KOs anyway. Imposter is unreliable cuz you need to win the tie (as otherwise you'll take heavy damage from a +2 move vs. -1 defenses), the sash needs to already be broken, and such teams can even be improofed through careful move selection. The Imposter needs insane luck to win this matchup, as it is difficult to win all of 3+ speed ties. A good DazzleSmash team is built to bypass common Unawares, and IO only takes down up to two sweepers. I've been using DazzleSmash for a while, and I've faced it with a good team (that beat users such as volt, hl, vqk, uc, and picc) but this team that is actually really good against the rest of the meta (including water bubble) just loses to DazzleSmash because it can't beat so many sweepers. One would think it's well equipped (ft. powerful attackers + rocks + unaware zygc) but it just gets overwhelmed by so many of them. From my experience using DazzleSmash I can attest to this fact: counters just get overwhelmed. While teams may be prepared for one or even two DazzleSmashers, when you're facing 4 or 5 (PsySurge) your team just folds, especially when you aren't sure which of them has the Ice Beam that takes out your ZygC, the V-Create that bops your Registeel, or the Core Enforcer that ruins your Giratina. The only way of beating such teams is never using any move except Spectral Thief, but then they just attack you and then you still lose.

TL;DR: DQM are ridic and need to go. They are the problem here, not anything else. They have little to no viable counterplay, as "counters" are overwhelmed by 4+ smashers.

Psychic Surge:
PSurge I think could be more manageable, due to A) limited turn count, B) doesn't affect Flying-types, and C) can be removed by other surges. I think it would still definitely be powerful, but while I'm definitely for banning DQM, I feel like PSurge would need some testing in a non-DQM meta. It would defo be strong but I'm not sure it would be broken so I'm for more testing for this.

Innards Out:
This ability is fucking cancerous and requires next to no skill to use. Taking out whichever of your opponent's mons you want to (if you're not completely moronic and let it lose health) is definitely unhealthy for the meta. It makes DazzleSmash teams ten times worse (although they don't need IO to be broken). Taking out threats with very little need for prediction skills and having next to no reliable counterplay (you can't EV everything to not OHKO max hp/min def chans, as otherwise you just lose to other things) makes this ability broken. Ban this two months ago

TL;DR: Ban DQM, test PSurge in non-DQM meta, ban IO
 
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