Is this a ladder thread or a suspect thread smh
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BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread
- Thread starter E4 Flint
- Start date
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Honestly the fact that Comatose is still usable without any outcry going on here means it is managable.
I dont understand all the hurry with banning stuff right now. Make a proper suspect once a quarter and thats it.
Those polls are so easy to influence with multi accounts.
I dont understand all the hurry with banning stuff right now. Make a proper suspect once a quarter and thats it.
Those polls are so easy to influence with multi accounts.
The clause to disallow Sleep Talk on Comatose has been put in place for some time now, though it's possible it wasn't the last time you played. I also make the poll votes visible to all so we all can see if there is generation of accounts purely for voting.
My bad, i did not vote in that poll and i never used Comatose, so i assumed it was banned fully but somehow not implemented.
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
Here's my suggestion (not saying it should be done) about Water Bubble suspect, since apparently we decided on suspecting Water Bubble instead of banning it.
*) Allow 6 Water Bubbles:
I am ready to take a whole bunch of criticism by saying this. But hear me out.
If you played Gen 7 BH consistently you will realize how frustrating it is to face Water Bubble user without Water Absorb or Innards Out. And I could not understand why people want to hold up with this stupid ability for longer duration of time.
What do these have to allowing six Water Bubbles? Well, here's the thing:
Unfortunately looks like some of us do not understand what makes metagame unhealthy yet, not to mention I do not have very long time of experience either.
By having 6 Water Bubbles in Suspect Ladder (which does not affect regular BH ladder) people will see how boring and pointless to run Water Bubble and to counter them by running Water Absorb which is totally useless outsides this.
Some teams will run Kyogre-Primal Spams with Water Bubbles, and some people will make gimmick team to counter that team using tons of Water Bubble or 6 Mega Gyarados.
But this sounds plainly stupid! This will screw up the whole metagame!
IMO this is why E4 Flint make suspect test in separate ladder. Remember when we were in CFZ's suspect test? Deo-A spam was everywhere, and I had to run Scarf + Beat Up (lit useless besides killing Deo-A) to counter this team, or otherwise my team was completely demolished.
I thought this was stupid as well. I was like why the hell would E4 Flint make a suspect test that bans CFZ's instead and make people experience the comfort away from CFZ?
I noticed why after January 22nd, when the voting was over. A lot of people who suffered from Deo-A spam team with CFZ's voted ban. And apparently majority of these users were negligent or not supportive about banning CFZ's in general... until the spam struck their mind and enlightened them into deeper considerations.
Having 2 weeks of unhealthy metagame to have more people see the metagame with bigger picture, I think, is worth. Water Bubble is inherently bad. Majority of us will still disagree with this until we allow excessive Water Bubble and let them know what does Water Bubble do to the metagame.
From one of the links below:
If you want more detailed analysis about Water Bubble's unhealthiness in current metagame:
My calculations about Water Bubble:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-vote-2-1-water-bubble.3593631/#post-7201665
Electrolyte's elaboration:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-vote-2-1-water-bubble.3593631/#post-7203643
Why do I insist ban:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-vote-2-1-water-bubble.3593631/#post-7202692
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-vote-2-1-water-bubble.3593631/#post-7203569
*) Allow 6 Water Bubbles:
I am ready to take a whole bunch of criticism by saying this. But hear me out.
If you played Gen 7 BH consistently you will realize how frustrating it is to face Water Bubble user without Water Absorb or Innards Out. And I could not understand why people want to hold up with this stupid ability for longer duration of time.
What do these have to allowing six Water Bubbles? Well, here's the thing:
Unfortunately looks like some of us do not understand what makes metagame unhealthy yet, not to mention I do not have very long time of experience either.
By having 6 Water Bubbles in Suspect Ladder (which does not affect regular BH ladder) people will see how boring and pointless to run Water Bubble and to counter them by running Water Absorb which is totally useless outsides this.
Some teams will run Kyogre-Primal Spams with Water Bubbles, and some people will make gimmick team to counter that team using tons of Water Bubble or 6 Mega Gyarados.
But this sounds plainly stupid! This will screw up the whole metagame!
IMO this is why E4 Flint make suspect test in separate ladder. Remember when we were in CFZ's suspect test? Deo-A spam was everywhere, and I had to run Scarf + Beat Up (lit useless besides killing Deo-A) to counter this team, or otherwise my team was completely demolished.
I thought this was stupid as well. I was like why the hell would E4 Flint make a suspect test that bans CFZ's instead and make people experience the comfort away from CFZ?
I noticed why after January 22nd, when the voting was over. A lot of people who suffered from Deo-A spam team with CFZ's voted ban. And apparently majority of these users were negligent or not supportive about banning CFZ's in general... until the spam struck their mind and enlightened them into deeper considerations.
Having 2 weeks of unhealthy metagame to have more people see the metagame with bigger picture, I think, is worth. Water Bubble is inherently bad. Majority of us will still disagree with this until we allow excessive Water Bubble and let them know what does Water Bubble do to the metagame.
From one of the links below:
If you want more detailed analysis about Water Bubble's unhealthiness in current metagame:
My calculations about Water Bubble:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-vote-2-1-water-bubble.3593631/#post-7201665
Electrolyte's elaboration:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-vote-2-1-water-bubble.3593631/#post-7203643
Why do I insist ban:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-vote-2-1-water-bubble.3593631/#post-7202692
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-vote-2-1-water-bubble.3593631/#post-7203569
Allow 6 imposters while were at it
y would you ever want a team with 6 water bubbles in the current meta. You would literally lose like 99% of your games smh.
"Kyogre used Water Spout! It was supergay effective! Tyrannitar lost 99%"
"Tyrannitar used shell smash! BLAH BLAH BLAH boost."
"Kyogre used water shuriken... Tyrannitar's dazzling!"
Tyrannitar used power trip.
The end.
Serves you rite for using 6 water bubbles doesn't it. Should of actually thought a second first.
If anyone would like to disagree with that feel free to pm me and lose to a 6 innards out team.
"Kyogre used Water Spout! It was super
"Tyrannitar used shell smash! BLAH BLAH BLAH boost."
"Kyogre used water shuriken... Tyrannitar's dazzling!"
Tyrannitar used power trip.
The end.
Serves you rite for using 6 water bubbles doesn't it. Should of actually thought a second first.
I vote 4 6 innards out. Pretty sure it would actually be impossible to lose with 6 innards out.
If anyone would like to disagree with that feel free to pm me and lose to a 6 innards out team.
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
I am not saying 6 Water Bubble team will be viable. I am saying how will it affect the metagame. Funny example though
... and 6 Innards Out... the one with Innards Out dies first. And Magic Guard sweeper will demolish that team lel
... unless you run 6 Mega Rays with Choice Items paired with Innards Out.
Magic guard pls. y the hell would i lose to something weak like magic guard. As long as you have only 1 or 2 i should be fine.
>magic guard. Kids these days
>magic guard. Kids these days
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
What have I done
Just wanted to talk about how people don't pay attention to Water Bubble suspect and I am accused of being a troll
I was simply asked to make more relevant discussions about suspects and I posted something about Water Bubble and I emphasized by saying it is a suggestion in gigantic font.
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Don't get it twisted, he's not saying you're a troll. I'm sure ur not a bad guy but the last few posts made by yourself and a few other individuals are quite nonsensical. Using large fonts and irrelevant facts to prove wild statements aren't befitting of this thread. For instance, the idea of 6 of a broken ability and having that be the only way said ability is allowed will never happen because its an unnecessarily ludicrous way of balancing the metagame. Right now, let's focus on discussing the ability Water Bubble and whether it is overpowered or not. Either we ban it or we don't. Simple as.
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding, and I would wish to be criticized in constructive ways in the future, not in a way which I am suggesting something like gimmicks.
All points have been made already.
RNG wants Water Bubble suspect, he put in graphics and made over a dozen calcs.
Shed wants Innhards out suspect, i respect him alot as top battler.
MAMP wants QM/D suspect, he made a very detailed easy to read post.
I want nothing banned, i want stuff unbanned.
I have a big post on Water Bubble written in notepad, but i ll wait a bit till i post.
Instead i want to focus on unbanning older weaker stuff;
Chatter, Moody, Protean and Parential Bond.
Chatter
- lower self hit confusion chance
- no access to priority anymore
- better utility moves arround now
Moody
+ Power Trip
+ a dark-move which blocks sound Moves (idk name)
+ bypassing Sturdinja and Unaware possible
- Stored Power weaker due Dark Types prominence
- easier to wall with Fur Coat
- Spectral Thief is biggest counter
Protean
+ Coverage more Important
+ Shell Smash gives Spectral Thief immumnity
+ Ghost Type no longer needs plate
- less Imposterproof
- easier to revengekill
- higher opportunity cost
Parential Bond
+ Good vs current Focus Sash meta
+ always effective due Super Fang and Night Shade
+ can be used offensivly and defensivly
- 2nd hit only 25% of 1st
- only works on contact moves
- favors weaker moves due secondary effects
Personally i would unban Shadow Tag to deal with the 6 Innhards Out team.
RNG wants Water Bubble suspect, he put in graphics and made over a dozen calcs.
Shed wants Innhards out suspect, i respect him alot as top battler.
MAMP wants QM/D suspect, he made a very detailed easy to read post.
I want nothing banned, i want stuff unbanned.
There are like 3 threads for Water Bubble now, the poll, the standart BH topic and here.
I have a big post on Water Bubble written in notepad, but i ll wait a bit till i post.
Instead i want to focus on unbanning older weaker stuff;
Chatter, Moody, Protean and Parential Bond.
Chatter
- lower self hit confusion chance
- no access to priority anymore
- better utility moves arround now
Moody
+ Power Trip
+ a dark-move which blocks sound Moves (idk name)
+ bypassing Sturdinja and Unaware possible
- Stored Power weaker due Dark Types prominence
- easier to wall with Fur Coat
- Spectral Thief is biggest counter
Protean
+ Coverage more Important
+ Shell Smash gives Spectral Thief immumnity
+ Ghost Type no longer needs plate
- less Imposterproof
- easier to revengekill
- higher opportunity cost
Parential Bond
+ Good vs current Focus Sash meta
+ always effective due Super Fang and Night Shade
+ can be used offensivly and defensivly
- 2nd hit only 25% of 1st
- only works on contact moves
- favors weaker moves due secondary effects
Personally i would unban Shadow Tag to deal with the 6 Innhards Out team.
Refer to the "Why was ___ banned/unbanned?" post, here
As for the rest of your post.. all I can really say is, I respect your anti-ban stance. I myself greatly believe in not having knee-jerk mass bane and my policy always has been to try and have as minimal a banlist as possible. Your post, while providing general pros and cons for the mechanics themselves, does not really provide good reasoning on why they should be reallowed. For that, you would have to provide solid contrasting evidence to the original reasons why they were banned. I invite the community at large to discuss them if they agree with you about them. Imo the only one with scope of possible unban discussion is Protean.
In any case, unban discussion will occur only when we are in a period of not discussing bans for a good amount of time i.e. having a settled meta.
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RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
I want many thing unbanned as well, but I have to disagree with couple abilities:
Chatter: complete hax move. I am already sick and tired of going 50/50 against Imposters when my Improofing mon is not present, and I do not want extra RNG hax. (because I am RNG hater and stuff). Even if the chance of hitting itself in confusion has significantly decreased, the consequence for hitting itself is very dire. Not only it gives opponent a free turn, but also it will break one's sash or possibly dent itself if one has some boosts.
Moody: Do I have to see this hax again? Do I have to see Arceus spamming Spiky Shield and Substitute accumulating boosts while ignoring Spectral Thief?
Parental Bond: E4 Flint mentioned this already but the abilities that are totally irrelevant to one poke deserves ban. I do not want to see Choice Specs Mewtwo-Y using 2 Psystrikes or Choice Band Rayquaza using Dragon Ascent twice. And I believe you won't want to see MMX stacking up boosts using Power-Up-Punch with Parental Bond.
Shadow Tag: This ability is already very dangerous with Gengarite. Imagine something like Giratina trapping random guy and removing it with Perish Song with its phenomenal bulk. Or Groudon-Primal trapping random 'mons and nuking it with Choice Band V-Create without giving it an opportunity to switch into its checks. This ability, if unbanned, will force lots of Shed Shells or even gimmicky sets with Run Away.
As E4 Flint said, I think Protean is the only ability that has glimmer of chance of being unbanned. It is susceptible to priority but is potentially more powerful.
Speaking of QM / D, I will post my stance on it too. (Be glad first time not crying about Water Bubble)
About QM / D, I personally think both ability abuses can be alleviated by applying this clause:
Item Clause: one / two of each item.
For the ones who have played Battle Spot Singles, I am pretty sure they know how painful would it be if they were to go against 3 different 'mons with Focus Sash.
Same thing with BH. If you fail to set up Stealth Rock, you will suffer from 3+ different mons with Sa-Shmashes, which your Imposter can't handle alone if any of them has Spectral Thief.
But what if only one Focus Sash would be allowed in each team?
Then you can deal with that one sweeper using Innards Out or Imposter (provided that the sweeper is not Improofed) and proceed to reset momentum or punish opponent for not having improofed team.
If we make flashback to CFZ's, Deo-A spam would be more bearable if limited number of Deo-A were allowed to hold Sashes.
I don't see Item clause ever gaining traction here. I would, instead, recommend that Shell Smash be banned. No other setup move grants the Pokemon so much power at once without drawbacks. I will show some other setup moves that are of comparable power to Shell Smash and compare how they stack up.
Shell Smash:
pros:
instant setup.
+2 to both offenses as well as speed
does not require item or ability, allows user to use shell smash along with priority blocking move and focus sash to make the most of the speed boost. Simple also doubles gains, allowing easy ohko on everything.
adds 120 bp to stat stage bp moves such as power trip and stored power (PTSP). If simple, adds 240 bp to these moves.
Opponent is generally forced to sac something to neutralize the user, such as with innards out or destiny bond. The moves that can actually punish the Shell Smash user without killing the target, spectral thief and topsy turvy, have mons that are immune to them, though not to both at once. Heart swap can only be used once before it becomes ineffective, which gives the user the opportunity to simply smash again to regain the boosts the next turn.
Impostor proof if at full health and using sash or sturdy, as user can smash again to outspeed the impostor
cons:
decreases defenses -1, leaves user open to strong neutral or supereffective attacks
Weak to entry hazards, weather damage, status, multi hit moves that can break focus sash
Geomancy/ Z-Geomancy
pros
boosts spa, spd, and spe +2, or all stats +1 additionally if z geomancy. No defense drop
usually runs simple in order to double gains and drops
Boost makes user bulkier, user can generally disregard residual damage
mostly impostorproof, since the added power is balanced by added bulk.
cons
requires item (power herb or fairium-z) to be effective. = no focus sash
Requires charge up turn if running fairium-z. If boosts are stolen, requires two turns to re-boost, allowing opponent to easily keep it under control. THis is a really big con and what makes it balanced, imho.
Shift gear
pros
Doubles speed quickly without losing any bulk
no item/ability required for effectiveness, user can use it as a bulky breaker instead of a sweeper and switch out afterwords
cons:
Not impostorproof if the impostor copies too many boosts
limited only to physical user
Easily walled by unaware user, especially if running spectral thief. Also since attack is increased by +1, attack drop moves such as Strength Sap can neutralize the power boost behind the user, but not the speed boost.
very susceptible to status, especially burn
Quiver Dance
pros
special booster without charge up turn or item/ability requirements
cons
Only boosts the stats by +1, scarf can outspeed many bulky qd's at +1
So you see, Shell Smash is a very splashable move. You can put it on just about any Pokemon with even a little bit of offensive presence, combined with focus sash and DQM, to start sweeping. I've seen it used on every mon from Primal Groudon, Mega Rayquaza, Ash-Greninja, Mega Metagross, Mega Gyarados, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Diancie, both Mega Mewtwos, Mega Scizor, Solgaleo, and even Arceus. The opportunity cost of running the move is that you might be using a slightly less optimal set for the pokemon, but the surprise value will usually net the smash user at least one kill. I mean you switch in a counter for Mega Rayquaza' triage/aerilate set, mega Tar for instance, and if it shell smashes on you, you can say goodbye to something. You might switch Giratina in on desolate land primal groudon expecting some bulky set, but if it Shell Smashes, something on your team is dying next turn. That's why the move is the culprit and not the abilities or the items. None of the other setup moves I mentioned can boost offenses like that basically for free. The fact that it boosts offenses also allows Pokemon to become unpredictable with their move choices.
Shell Smash:
pros:
instant setup.
+2 to both offenses as well as speed
does not require item or ability, allows user to use shell smash along with priority blocking move and focus sash to make the most of the speed boost. Simple also doubles gains, allowing easy ohko on everything.
adds 120 bp to stat stage bp moves such as power trip and stored power (PTSP). If simple, adds 240 bp to these moves.
Opponent is generally forced to sac something to neutralize the user, such as with innards out or destiny bond. The moves that can actually punish the Shell Smash user without killing the target, spectral thief and topsy turvy, have mons that are immune to them, though not to both at once. Heart swap can only be used once before it becomes ineffective, which gives the user the opportunity to simply smash again to regain the boosts the next turn.
Impostor proof if at full health and using sash or sturdy, as user can smash again to outspeed the impostor
cons:
decreases defenses -1, leaves user open to strong neutral or supereffective attacks
Weak to entry hazards, weather damage, status, multi hit moves that can break focus sash
Geomancy/ Z-Geomancy
pros
boosts spa, spd, and spe +2, or all stats +1 additionally if z geomancy. No defense drop
usually runs simple in order to double gains and drops
Boost makes user bulkier, user can generally disregard residual damage
mostly impostorproof, since the added power is balanced by added bulk.
cons
requires item (power herb or fairium-z) to be effective. = no focus sash
Requires charge up turn if running fairium-z. If boosts are stolen, requires two turns to re-boost, allowing opponent to easily keep it under control. THis is a really big con and what makes it balanced, imho.
Shift gear
pros
Doubles speed quickly without losing any bulk
no item/ability required for effectiveness, user can use it as a bulky breaker instead of a sweeper and switch out afterwords
cons:
Not impostorproof if the impostor copies too many boosts
limited only to physical user
Easily walled by unaware user, especially if running spectral thief. Also since attack is increased by +1, attack drop moves such as Strength Sap can neutralize the power boost behind the user, but not the speed boost.
very susceptible to status, especially burn
Quiver Dance
pros
special booster without charge up turn or item/ability requirements
cons
Only boosts the stats by +1, scarf can outspeed many bulky qd's at +1
So you see, Shell Smash is a very splashable move. You can put it on just about any Pokemon with even a little bit of offensive presence, combined with focus sash and DQM, to start sweeping. I've seen it used on every mon from Primal Groudon, Mega Rayquaza, Ash-Greninja, Mega Metagross, Mega Gyarados, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Diancie, both Mega Mewtwos, Mega Scizor, Solgaleo, and even Arceus. The opportunity cost of running the move is that you might be using a slightly less optimal set for the pokemon, but the surprise value will usually net the smash user at least one kill. I mean you switch in a counter for Mega Rayquaza' triage/aerilate set, mega Tar for instance, and if it shell smashes on you, you can say goodbye to something. You might switch Giratina in on desolate land primal groudon expecting some bulky set, but if it Shell Smashes, something on your team is dying next turn. That's why the move is the culprit and not the abilities or the items. None of the other setup moves I mentioned can boost offenses like that basically for free. The fact that it boosts offenses also allows Pokemon to become unpredictable with their move choices.
I don't have much of an issue with any of the other abilities, but parental bond with
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You're thinking Nature's madness. Guardian of alola is a (banned) CFZ that does 75% anyway and is ot affected by parental bond.
That could work for Kangaskhan, but its defenses are not that good. Here is a sample set
Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Nature's Madness
- Seismic Toss
- Foul Play
- Dragon Tail
Nature's Madness to reduce a target's max hp to 25%, Seismic Toss for the killing blow. Foul Play and Dragon tail for ghost types and phasing. This is mostly an anti-stall set. Problems include its low speed (an alternate EV spread could fix this), poor special defense, and poor performance against offense.
Should have paid more attention to the context before replying. He was arguing on a theoretical pbond unban.
Details about the Water Bubble Suspect can be found here.
I have decided that the next topic of discussion shall be the AntiPriority Setup (henceforth dubbed as APS) namely a discussion on Dazzling, Queenly Majesty and possibly Psychic Surge, with some discussion about Shell Smash. Imo the key talking points are:
I have decided that the next topic of discussion shall be the AntiPriority Setup (henceforth dubbed as APS) namely a discussion on Dazzling, Queenly Majesty and possibly Psychic Surge, with some discussion about Shell Smash. Imo the key talking points are:
- Is APS broken? (obviously, the first talking point)
- Does the broken element stem from Dazzling, Queenly Majesty and Psychic Surge, or from Focus Sash and Shell Smash, or even ability ignoring moves Moongeist and Sunsteel
- Should Dazzling/Queenly Majesty be limited or banned (if it comes to that)
- Is Psychic Surge more amenable because it clearly announces that priority is negated? Is it better that it negates priority for both players, and all mons or worse? Is it better since it can be negated with another terrain? Is it worse if the other terrains aren't as good?
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Psychic surge may not be better because it negates priority for both players. The side using psychic surge is less likely to use priority due to the terrain, while teams without psychic surge are more likely to use priority moves. Psychic surge also comes with the ability to increase the power of psychic moves (applicable for Mewtwo formes and Deoxys Attack), which is an added benefit for these pokemon.
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