Eviolite walls are too vulnerable to Knock Off. This goes more so for Doublade due to it being weak to the move.
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BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread
- Thread starter E4 Flint
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That's true, but it really depends. Most Special Attackers wont pack that move, for example, and some are Choice Banded, so they likely wont pack Knock Off due to the diminished power of that move.
But ya, its a concern. I was just thinking its an option to attack with Body Press that many Evioliters now have.
P.S. Here is a replay for Trick Room Shuckle https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1015675839
I wanna try my hand at BH talk now, been lurking too long owo
Anywho I don't think BP Shuckle is all that great. What else are you attacking with? Good luck clearing their board of Ghosts/Fighting resists/FC users/Prankster Haze or Topsy-Turvy/damn bulky mons before you can actually sweep (that's a lot). And this is all IF you can take 3 turns using 2 Cotton Guards and Trick Room.
+6 252+ Atk Shuckle Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 362-428 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
And this is with weakness. Good chance to OHKO, but seriously? +6 only barely manages to OHKO at full HP with weakness?
+6 252+ Atk Shuckle Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan-Zen: 285-336 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I forgot to EV my Darmanitan-Zen and I still don't get OHKOed. Unsure what this would follow up with, probably Spectral Thief or smth. Or be FC and dont forget EVs and probably not care about the move at all.
I think Body Press is a decent offensive option that FC walls now have, but it definetely isn't anything too good. Imo you can't just slap it on a mon and call it a day, it takes smth like Cotton Guard to actually make it useable. The best BP user I've seen and used is Zamazenta. STAB FC Body Press is just, neat. I think eviolite walls, espcially those trying their hand on the offensive side, should be running Obstruct now. Body Press may be weakened after a Knock Off, but if I get hit your -2 Def self, idk I think that sounds worth it. Plus, with Doublade, you could even run Spectral Thief in case the mon using Knock Off is a Ghost type. It may get weakened in general, but if you get a KO, you get a KO. And it's not like the move is completely unusable then too.
Anywho I don't think BP Shuckle is all that great. What else are you attacking with? Good luck clearing their board of Ghosts/Fighting resists/FC users/Prankster Haze or Topsy-Turvy/damn bulky mons before you can actually sweep (that's a lot). And this is all IF you can take 3 turns using 2 Cotton Guards and Trick Room.
+6 252+ Atk Shuckle Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 362-428 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
And this is with weakness. Good chance to OHKO, but seriously? +6 only barely manages to OHKO at full HP with weakness?
+6 252+ Atk Shuckle Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan-Zen: 285-336 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I forgot to EV my Darmanitan-Zen and I still don't get OHKOed. Unsure what this would follow up with, probably Spectral Thief or smth. Or be FC and dont forget EVs and probably not care about the move at all.
I think Body Press is a decent offensive option that FC walls now have, but it definetely isn't anything too good. Imo you can't just slap it on a mon and call it a day, it takes smth like Cotton Guard to actually make it useable. The best BP user I've seen and used is Zamazenta. STAB FC Body Press is just, neat. I think eviolite walls, espcially those trying their hand on the offensive side, should be running Obstruct now. Body Press may be weakened after a Knock Off, but if I get hit your -2 Def self, idk I think that sounds worth it. Plus, with Doublade, you could even run Spectral Thief in case the mon using Knock Off is a Ghost type. It may get weakened in general, but if you get a KO, you get a KO. And it's not like the move is completely unusable then too.
To be fair you gave Zamazenta Fur Coat but didn’t provide the boost to Shuckle... if you did then you would apply Huge Power to negate the Fur Coat (Huge Power since the calc lists Atk, not Defense... it needs to be corrected).
By cutting it in half, through only boosting the Defense of Zamazenta, you effectively cut off the weakness to a neutral hit.
As it doesn’t gain STAB, it’s only 80 base power, so it’s like giving it an UnSTABbed Extreme Speed and expecting the base stat to make up for the low base power
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That seems off. Did you switch out the Atk for Def when you did the calcs?
Here is the actual calculation:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Shuckle Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 658-776 (169.5 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Here is what I got... P.S. I use Fur Coat. *Hears everyone go “Ohhh!”
Pokemon Showdown’s Calculator is off:
Compare Submission, another Fighting move at 80 base power, (I made Attack 230 like Defense), and Huge Power like Fur Coat);
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Shuckle Submission vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Darmanitan-Zen: 414-487 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
VS (I made Attack 230 like Defense and gave it Fur Coat):
+6 252 Atk Shuckle Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Darmanitan-Zen: 189-222 (45.6 - 53.6%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
Body Press bases it off of Attack, in this calculator, and when I made it Fur Coat the damage didn’t factor in the Defense boost.
If I make it Bold nature (+Def, - Atk), it actually weakens Body Press, not strengthens it:
It doesn’t calculate properly; otherwise Body Press would do more than Submission.
It’s not your fault, but you have to be more conscientious if a calc is not factoring the correct base stat, especially when it comes to an ability (Fur Cost) or item (Eviolite) that directly modifies it.
I typically only use Fur Coat Darm-Z, but in this example I use a no ability Darmanitan-Z, so for something like Shuckle to use Fur Coat to negate the resistance to Body Press via Psychic-Typing, and then to have to rely on an 80 base power move to carry it, is able to KO something fairly bulky.
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Lets
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Ah, ok that makes a bit more sense. I wasn't considering FC, I was thinking something else like Prankster so you can run Spore/Recovery, or Cotton Guard earlier. Or even Entrainment for a lil disruption. Even with Fur Coat, it still seems problematic. None of these calcs are even relevant unless you can somehow buy three turns in a row where you can use two Cotton Guards and Trick Room. Keep in mind Trick Room is very temporary, meaning if they also have any surprise bulky monstas, Max Guard 3 Times (lmao), Obstruct (uh-oh), or another protecting move, it takes quite a bit of time off of your TR. And even after your three turns of setup are complete, you won't sweep if the foe has any Ghost-type Pokémon, Prankster Haze/Topsy, etc. all what I explained in my previous post. FC Body Press Shuckle seems too impractical and very situational. I will give it that dying to a physical move seems a little tough lmao, eveb with 20 HP 230 Defense with FC and up to +6 def is gonna be slightly hard to kill. But honestly I think the mon itself shucks.
Shuckle is also way too vulnerable to Imposter, though I’m not sure how relevant that is.
But we are going to Cotton Guard before Trick Room, so it has and with Fur Coat, it is like a free Swords Dance before having to set up.
Let’s look at Zamazenta without Fur Coat and Shuckle without set up:
252+ Atk Huge Power Shuckle Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 330-390 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
So let’s say Shuckle uses Trick Room as Zamazenta-Crowned switches in, thinking it can use its Steel STAB to threaten out Shuckle, but now it realizes who is going first.
If we simply give Shuckle an item that impacts the base power of the move, like +20% Fighting base power Blackbelt, then it’s a 1HKO — since we don’t have a +Def item (Eviolite wont work on Shuckle):
252+ Atk Black Belt Huge Power Shuckle Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 396-466 (102 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*If we had 1 layer of Spikes, instead of Black Belt, the results wouldmbe pretty much the same.
No Cotton Guard set up required to KO a heavily defensive mon without STAB.
For neutral hits:
252+ Atk Black Belt Huge Power Shuckle Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 256-302 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Overall, if you think of just adding a single Cotton Guard, you can see just how powerful it will become:
+3 252+ Atk Black Belt Huge Power Shuckle Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 494-582 (127.3 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even without the item:
+3 252+ Atk Huge Power Shuckle Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 412-486 (106.1 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The other benefit of Trick Room, is you always outspeed Scarf Imposter, and you can always use that new Trick Room item to outspeed Eviolite Imposter.
I would say that if Imposter Eviolite Fur Coat Shuckle used Body Press, it would do very well damage (not vs your Shuckle with Fur Coat), but in general bc 614 x 2 x 1.5 = 1,842 Defense before any set up is required.
The other benefit of Trick Room is being able to switch to another wall with strong power that can threaten our many things, such as Fur Coat Darmanitan-Z who can force out Doublade, Aegislash, etc. that lack Flash Fire (Prankster / Magic Bounce variants), as they cannot Burn or use Strength Sap to stop SpA.
Also, like I mentioned before, Body Press takes Walls to mixer sweeping potential, so if Tyranitar comes in to block Blue Flare, Fur Coat Darm-Z can Body Press for the KO:
252+ Atk Huge Power Darmanitan-Zen Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar: 488-576 (120.7 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now Darmanitan-Z can KO it’s own check, whereas last generation it had to settle for an awkward Secret Sword off of 140 base SpA, while here Fur Coat makes Body Press way stronger than Secret Sword:
252 SpA Darmanitan-Zen Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar: 292-344 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Locking this thread as gen 7 tiering is over. Please use the gen 8 BH thread to discuss the new metagame.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3656408/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3656408/
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