BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm not going to spoil myself on what's exactly in the Galar dex (and please spoiler tag that stuff), but species clause is a good one to discuss regardless. I also thought Flint mentioned something about switching Ability clause from two instances to a single instance? Invesitgating how Dynamax moves and the like work on non-Dyna Pokemon should also be a priority since that can be super meta defining.

Also ban all ubers. Lets do it this time!
 
magnet pull meta was absolute garbage for a few reasons, one of them being that strat that got you a 1/5 chance to win every turn vs a team with non-shed shell imposter (phazing + double magnet pull + acupressure heal pulse). also steels are already really bad

magnet pull is just really lame and matchup dependent while offering pretty much nothing competitive. i dont really know what your argument to bring it back would be.
So basically ur telling me, u don't want magnet pull because it will force u to run shed shell imposter? Okay

Everything in this meta is matchup dependent but imposter is the only sure thing right? You can imposter proof your team all you want but once the opponent knows your sets, its just based on plays to win that game, you with your imposter just having the right mons to counter everything the opponent has

I have a gripe with suspects being made because imposter is being beaten by a certain strategy like illusion and magnet pull... Its like beating imposter is the root of all arguments for why something is banworthy in this meta
 
Last edited:
Interesting note about gen 8 BH: Max Flare is coded with 100 innate power, while all the other "CFZ" equivalents have just 10. I'm not seeing move entries for the G-max moves at all, either, which means you basically have these 17 Nuzzle-like moves that ignore all variations of Protect and can be used to set weather, terrain, or one-stage stat changes on top of the tiny amount of chip damage (they also have 16 PP each, instead of 1). Those don't sound all that troublesome to allow, unlike last time.
 
So basically ur telling me, u don't want magnet pull because it will force u to run shed shell imposter? Okay

Everything in this meta is matchup dependent but imposter is the only sure thing right? You can imposter proof your team all you want but once the opponent knows your sets, its just based on plays to win that game, you with your imposter just having the right mons to counter everything the opponent has

I have a gripe with suspects being made because imposter is being beaten by a certain strategy like illusion and magnet pull... Its like beating imposter is the root of all arguments for why something is banworthy in this meta
yeah i agree, imposter has been really hard to deal with. ever since we banned trapping moves, poison heal, mega gengar, shedinja, status moves, knock off, substitute, strong wallbreakers, and strength sap + magic bounce teammate i've had a really hard time preparing for this pokemon.

it doesn't make any sense to me how imposter and steels are easier to punish than ever before but you still want magnet pull back to deal with them.

also, don't use matchup teams if you want playing skill to be a factor. shoutouts band sand
 
Historically, AFAIK, all previous Gen OM ladders were replaced as soon as the new Gen was implemented (and in some cases, like V to VI, we had a weird blend of gens mid-implementation). Some other servers may keep Gen VII BH as a ladder or challenge format.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: OM!

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
Now that gen 7 is on its way out, I have thought of what our banlist should look like for next gen.
<<<Spoilers Ahead>>>
Let's take a look at our current banlist
Current Banlist
Last updated: 11/11/2019

Pokemon
  • Primal Groudon (Link)
  • Mega Rayquaza (Link)
Moves
  • Chatter (Link)
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Parental Bond (Link)
  • Protean (Link) (Gen 7: Link)
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody (Link)
  • Water Bubble (Link)
  • Innards Out (Link)
  • Magnet Pull (Link)
  • Stakeout (Link)
  • Psychic Surge (Link)
  • Illusion (Link)
  • Contrary (Link)
Clauses
  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team. (Link)
  • CFZ Clause: Use of Crystal-Free Z-moves (CFZ's) is disallowed (Link, Discussion)
  • ComaTalk Clause: Sleep Talk can't be run on a Pokemon with the Comatose ability (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder (Link)
  • Sleep Clause: Only one Pokemon on the opponent's team can be put to sleep at a time. This excludes self-inflicted sleep or Comatose (Link)
Items
Gengarite (Link)​
History:
Nov 18, 2016: [Gen 7] Balanced Hackmons goes live on PokemonShowdown! Initial Banlist Decision Breakdown here
Nov 19, 2016: Extreme Evoboost QuickBanned (Link, Discussion)
Jan 16, 2017: Crystal-Free Z-Moves Banned Link
Jan 23, 2017: ComaTalk Clause put in place Link
Mar 04, 2017: EV Limit removed from Gen7 BH Link
Mar 06, 2017: Water Bubble Banned Link
Mar 21, 2017: Innards Out QuickBanned Link
July 18, 2017: Gengarite/Magnet Pull Banned Link (Poll link in OP)
Aug 13, 2017: Stakeout QuickBanned Link
Oct 03, 2017: Primal Groudon Banned Link
Mar 06, 2018: Discussion about "executive decision" concluded with no changes in the suspect process Link
Mar 13, 2018: Psychic Surge Banned Link
Aug 13, 2018: Illusion Banned Link
Mar 03, 2019: Sleep Clause Implemented Link
Jun 09, 2019: Contrary Banned Link
Aug 19, 2019: MegaRay Banned Link
Nov 11, 2019: Shedinja Suspect ended in DNB Link
and a list of new abilities here: https://serebii.net/swordshield/abilities.shtml
and a lit of new moves here: https://serebii.net/swordshield/attacks.shtml

It is no secret to anyone now that a bunch of mechanics were cut from gen 8. These include mons, mega evolution and zmoves, but also some abilities and moves - which are further divided into some moves which are just cut from the game and others which are "recommended to be forgotten" which I am speculating to mean that mons knowing those moves can be transferred into the game but are unable to use them. In addition, there may be things which are unusable by the player or which may not be used in a local wifi battle. Keep this in mind during our discussion.

As such if there is something on the banlist that does not exist in the next metagame, we can classify those as "dormant" bans i.e. if these mechanics were to return, they would start off banned unless stated otherwise. In addition to this I have planned the new banlist as such:

Additions to the banlist:
  • Reinstatement of the Sleep Clause - It was removed in the beta ladder initially following its removal from the other tiers, but I don't think dexit changes its scope for us - we still have access to Spore for instance on every mon
  • Libero - equivalent to a banned ability so will be automatically banned
  • Eternatus Eternamaxed - with a statline of 255/115/250/125/250/130 i think it's pretty straightforward to remove this. It shall be part of our "dormant" banlist as it's seemingly unusable (so far): https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokemon-sword-and-shield-datamine-thread.3656143/post-8284715
  • Neutralizing Gas - an ability that invalidates most forms of counterplay in bh by negating the opponent's ability. Sweepers are able to shutdown almost every defensive set which relies on an ability which includes but not limited to - Imposter, Prankster, Magic Bounce, Fur Coat, Ice Scales (i.e. special FC), Regenerator, Sturdy, Magic Guard, Poison Heal and so on. Based on initial gameplay in the BH Beta Ladder, I don't think we need more evidence that it overpowered and fits into my original categories for an ability ban
Removals from the banlist:
  • the Ability Clause - I have wanted to remove this for quite some time as I feel that it is archaic and picking the number 2 is totally arbitrary. If necessary we can instate a stricter clause of 1 of an ability per team which follows the convention of other clauses
In addition to the above, here are some notable mechanics that I think should be checked on either for qb or for initial suspect activity:
On the Watchlist:
  • Double Iron Bash (move) - With a high flinch rate combined with good BP that is also multihit, I think this should be looked at for a qb on similar grounds to Chatter previously. Right now the downsides are that its 8 PP and it can be punished with Rocky Helmet but both of these can be mitigated with the right item in return, and 8 PP is probably enough as it is.
  • Intrepid Sword (ability) - This ability for physical attackers outclasses every other boosting ability we have and is seemingly difficult to stop at least on paper when combined with setup, band and mold moves. It has a check in Fur Coat (minus mold moves) and Dauntless Shield, its defense raising counterpart, but we'll have to see how it performs and I think should be a candidate for a suspect later on
  • Gorilla Tactics (ability) - Band in an ability, it is similar to the previous ability but a little more limited. It still allows for powerful Band sets that can "double-dip" or other items can also be run easily, while also being more secure against Imposter and less prone to things like Haze
  • Octolock (move) - Trapping is more dangerous in general due to the loss of defensive ghosts, and here is a move that makes me personally feel uncomfortable as strong offense mons can easily trap in would-be checks and whittle them out, perhaps stalling with a Shield. It is also not reflected by Magic Bounce (or so it says in the link). I think this is something worth looking at later down the line
These are my initial thoughts. Pinging The Immortal and any of you can provide further input. The creation of new threads is still ongoing, so you can feel free to post here. Thanks

Edit:
Regarding dynamaxing, it is still not clear to me if a mon is able to use its ability and item during maxed as I've heard conflicting information about this, as well as which mons are capable of maxing out and how maxed moves scale for bp. If we would like to take some action on them, I want to make sure we have verified sources of information on them so just include them in your post just for myself and others to take a look at
 
Last edited:

GL Volkner

see me rise, sky may fall
is a Tiering Contributor
Disagree w sleep clause as it's a bad way of handling the problem imo (already explained my thoughts on why) and I think as it's a new gen we should take time to evaluate that.

Watchlist Crowned Zacian, it's on an entirely differenr level than other offensive mons.

Watchlist Bolt Beak and maybe Fishious Rend, Zekrom in eterrain is way too strong and gets dragon stab to destroy would be resists. Gyara is prob best fish abuser idk how good it is rn tho.

Watchlist Dynamaxing. I think this is self explanatory but it's very difficult to handle as you can use Z power moves with the backup of an item and they also provide fairly strong secondary effects.


E: Shed is also worth a mention as it got Heavy Duty Boots and lost Mold Suit as a check
All I can think of rn, agree w the rest.

Regarding dynamaxing, it is still not clear to me if a mon is able to use its ability and item during maxed as I've heard conflicting information about this, as well as which mons are capable of maxing out and how maxed moves scale for bp. If we would like to take some action on them, I want to make sure we have verified sources of information on them so just include them in your post just for myself and others to take a look at
Double post but notification is important for those who have read these two posts already/lack info, hope you understand.
From what I can gather the implementation is still bugged however at the moment:
  • Choice Items do not boost Dynamaxed mons. However, they retain the boost before and after Dynamaxing and free themselves of the lock while Dynamaxed.
  • Life Orb functions as normal on Dynamaxed Pokemon.
  • In a random battle with another close friend, their Sylveon had Dynamaxed and used a Normal move. It changed to Fairy.
  • However, I've had issues getting other abilities to work (Ice Face, Sheer Force, etc.)
  • This leads me to believe that either there is no universal answer for if items and abilities boost Dynamaxed mons or not, or the sim is just simply bugged rn.
  • However, I dont believe that an item or ability boost is important at the core. It's appreciated, sure, but at the end of the day, these are still moves which power themselves up (through Terrain or Weather), or pressure prank hazers (through boosts or debuffs.)
This is meant to be a Dynamax info list with some additional info about shed too

e: thx flint
 
Last edited:
Disagree w sleep clause as it's a bad way of handling the problem imo (already explained my thoughts on why) and I think as it's a new gen we should take time to evaluate that.

Watchlist Crowned Zacian, it's on an entirely differenr level than other offensive mons.

Watchlist Bolt Beak and maybe Fishious Rend, Zekrom in eterrain is way too strong and gets dragon stab to destroy would be resists. Gyara is prob best fish abuser idk how good it is rn tho.

Watchlist Dynamaxing. I think this is self explanatory but it's very difficult to handle as you can use Z power moves with the backup of an item and they also provide fairly strong secondary effects.


E: Shed is also worth a mention as it got Heavy Duty Boots and lost Mold Suit as a check
All I can think of rn, agree w the rest.


Double post but notification is important for those who have read these two posts already/lack info, hope you understand.
From what I can gather the implementation is still bugged however at the moment:
  • Choice Items do not boost Dynamaxed mons. However, they retain the boost before and after Dynamaxing and free themselves of the lock while Dynamaxed.
  • Life Orb functions as normal on Dynamaxed Pokemon.
  • In a random battle with another close friend, their Sylveon had Dynamaxed and used a Normal move. It changed to Fairy.
  • However, I've had issues getting other abilities to work (Ice Face, Sheer Force, etc.)
  • This leads me to believe that either there is no universal answer for if items and abilities boost Dynamaxed mons or not, or the sim is just simply bugged rn.
  • However, I dont believe that an item or ability boost is important at the core. It's appreciated, sure, but at the end of the day, these are still moves which power themselves up (through Terrain or Weather), or pressure prank hazers (through boosts or debuffs.)
This is meant to be a Dynamax info list with some additional info about shed too

e: thx flint
We should also remember that we lost our main imposter user in Chansey and Blissey and we now have Wobuffet as the highest HP stat mon (190) and Munchlax as the highest HP eviolite user (135), which should definitely cause the tier to take a much more offensive turn and bring further worry about offensive mons that GL Volkner was talking about. The loss of good imposter mons also warrants closer looks to boosting moves like No Retreat (which raises all stats by +1).
 
I agree to the new banlist changes.

  • Sleep clause has to come: Spore + NGas abuse has led to a googles wear meta. I face at least 3 spore users per team.
  • DinA4Max has to go: it leds to 3 uses of different Zmoves (with boosts), that you cant protect against, so once a shell smasher with NGas gets rolling its impossible to stop.
  • Shedinja is no problem since there are many ways to deal with it.
  • Crowned Zacian should be at least considered, very fast and the highest attack of all, there arent many (if any) pokemons in gen 8 to wall it once it shell smashes; maybe once NGas is done it doesnt become a problem.

I wouldnt ban boosting moves like No Retreat or SSmash, once NGas is don prankster toopsy should be able to deal with it.
Gorila isnt a threat and Intrepid Sword cant say right now how good would it be once NGas is gone.

Is octolock even functioning correctly? Cause I get no defense drops.
 
I feel like Sturdy shed will become a huge problem with ngas removed, forcing all teams to run rocky helmet or sand stream to handle it now that it can just use HDB to ignore hazard damage. It actually might be an okay tradeoff since any random helmet or spiky shield user can stop it from clicking u-turn or endeavor. Though with the lack of Mold Pursuit, there will be no iklling it guaranteed. Pain Split shed might actually be the standard set this gen because it's a lot safer to just click moves. For this reason I feel like shed should definitely be on the watch list but I don't think it deserves a quickban.

Zat-crowned is definitely really strong but once ngas is gone, it will be able to be checked by Imposter Munch or Wob, as well as Prank haze Eternitus which only takes neutral from either of its STABs and has plenty of bulk.

I think that Magnet Pull should not start off as banned, as being able to use something like Magpull g max Charizard to trap and remove Zat-crowned would probably make it balanced. Any Fire type resists both its STABs and can serve as an adequate check, forcing it to run something like Shell Smash + EQ which would make it hard to improof.

Sleep Clause: Probably a good idea here because Spore exists, and the meta seems to be slanted more offensive right now because of Shell Smash and Dynamaxing giving access to such crazy moves. Slow PH sweepers just don't have room to breathe here so status absorption is a good deal harder.

Intrepid Sword: Isn't that ability like Download last gen except it just boosts attack? I don't feel like that's too much worse...
 
I feel like Sturdy shed will become a huge problem with ngas removed, forcing all teams to run rocky helmet or sand stream to handle it now that it can just use HDB to ignore hazard damage. It actually might be an okay tradeoff since any random helmet or spiky shield user can stop it from clicking u-turn or endeavor. Though with the lack of Mold Pursuit, there will be no iklling it guaranteed. Pain Split shed might actually be the standard set this gen because it's a lot safer to just click moves. For this reason I feel like shed should definitely be on the watch list but I don't think it deserves a quickban.

Zat-crowned is definitely really strong but once ngas is gone, it will be able to be checked by Imposter Munch or Wob, as well as Prank haze Eternitus which only takes neutral from either of its STABs and has plenty of bulk.

I think that Magnet Pull should not start off as banned, as being able to use something like Magpull g max Charizard to trap and remove Zat-crowned would probably make it balanced. Any Fire type resists both its STABs and can serve as an adequate check, forcing it to run something like Shell Smash + EQ which would make it hard to improof.

Sleep Clause: Probably a good idea here because Spore exists, and the meta seems to be slanted more offensive right now because of Shell Smash and Dynamaxing giving access to such crazy moves. Slow PH sweepers just don't have room to breathe here so status absorption is a good deal harder.

Intrepid Sword: Isn't that ability like Download last gen except it just boosts attack? I don't feel like that's too much worse...
For Zat Crowned, it could just use Multi Attack with a Ground Memory to stay Imposterproof, and break Fires / Steels, not to mention hitting past Normalize users like Dragapult. Considering it’s now Base 120 Power, with the item only changing type - to match Technoblast, it can check imposter while resisting it as a Normal move in return.

It has the bulk to withstand resisted hits, which makes up for the fact it isn’t immune to its own attacks like Normalize Gengar-Mega was last generation.

Afterall, it doesn’t even need Shell Smash, it could keep its bulk, as it nearly outspeeds anything, and go for the +1 all Stats moves on Simple, keeping its Defenses boosted just as much as it’s offense so Imposter doesn’t have an advantage.
Lastly, if it packs the self-trapping +1 all stats, Imposter has to weigh whether it is worth trapping itself to keep up on boosts.

It’s capable of Improofing itself with the right item, and setup move.

Has Unburden been removed? That’s another Imposterproof ability.
 
Last edited:
Yeah going to agree with volkner on ban sleep. Also ban bolt beak and guerrilla tactics/intrepidsword and body press and possibly vcreate. The meta is so hugely overcentralized by powerful attackers its kind of disgusting. I literally have to run levitate reshiram or fur coat goliscopod to not die to Zacian.


That or just like bring back a national dex so we can actually check the op mons
 
Just finished the game itself (or main story at least). Mostly agree with the ban list change except Ability Clause removal. Should go to one if kept, otherwise we're just going to have to bring back the ability spam teams again. Especially if Poison Heal is still around (didn't run into it in-game).

Real quick, might be late: OM! Unburden is still a thing. It's an ability on Thievul.


Watch list, potentially...

-Perish Body: Seems like it can become pretty bullcrappy with trapping strats. Downside is it can't be Soundproof at the same time, which might see it being okay.

-Shedinja: With some of its major counterplay strats being removed, like Mold Breaker Pursuit, its defensive capabilities become way harder to manage. Let's not even mention new survivability tools.

-Any mascot tier, or similar, legendaries might be worth watching since a lot of legendaries are gone as well as the megas and Ultras. This gives them a looooot less competition for their level of base stats. I think this is... Mewtwo, Zekrom, Reshiram, Zacian, Zazameta, Eternus, and... maybe more? I've not looked super closely at the list of unavailable mons, so probably overlooking some. It's late and I'm sure you guys know who I all mean on this one.


I ought to hop in soonish, although until things get fully coded in I'm not going to scrutinize too hard.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OM!
I would say Unburden can be used to take advantage of clones of Bolt Beak.

I think before we decide on bans we should cover the roles Pokemon serve, and review all of our offensive and defensive checks.

Overall, we need to know who are the main Physical, Special, and/or Mixed Offensive Threats sets, the Physical, Special, and/or Mixed Defensive Checks sets, along with Supportive or Disruptive tactics, and most importantly, the main and right uses of Dynamaxing to make moves have huge advantages.

This isn’t just about abilities and moves, but downright stats and typing, and anything signature to them.

I think we should come up with a rough Role Compendum and Viability Rankings list, from here we can come up with common and useful counter strategies and really lay out what it takes to win against something else. For example, Beedrill-Mega was a Pokemon no one saw coming to dominate the metagame as that perfect offensive pivot it became towards the end of the generation. It wasn’t just some random ingenious strategy or specific moveset that propelled it to the mid-higher tiers from the mid-lower tiers, it was simply realizing it does so many thing against the most common Pokemon of that generation like offensive threats in MMY, Tyranitar-Mega, and Xerneas and covered things on defensive threats like Audino-Mega, and others like Gyarados-Mega, Kyogre-Primal, and non-Flash Fire Dusk-Mane.

Basically, people read through the list of what stands out on top and thought, “why aren’t people using Beedrill-Mega (more), why are people sleeping on this?”

In order for us to recognize what is truly powerful, and thus possibly too powerful, let’s just lay out what is the current top-dog, and see what is a directly viable list of things that can stop it, I.e. Fur Coat, Unaware, Prankster, Ice Scales, Sturdy, and then list out the types that resist its moves (the defensive check needs to be resistant to Steel, Fairy, Ground/Fire for Zacian, like Levitate Steels, or Flash Fire Corviknight - but must watch out for CBand 4 attack sets with Fighting coverage, or Beak Bolt). Thus Fur Coat Doublade seems like a huge boon because it can switch in on Spikes, and survive even 2 V-Creates:

252 Atk Tough Claws Kyurem-Black V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Doublade: 112-134 (34.7 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Once we see things for what they are, we are not theorymonning anymore, and we are actually playing the game - replays, Calcs, strategies, etc.

On a side note: Literally, where are all of the good Water-types? Pokemon Master E4 Flint must have used Infernape to toast em. You cannot train past perfect
99BDDBD0-9F75-4CA4-8171-E512DF36FFCA.jpeg


P.S.

For these lists let’s just list S and A+, A, and A- rank for Offensive checks, and Defensive checks - specifically their abilities and most likely moves/items.

This means we can directly consider A checks B, but C checks A, but B checks C, etc. and not just panic into quickban ideas if a general wall/idea is checked by something common; where there may be a teammate that can cover that weakness very well and become a standout option to counter strategies that people didn’t realize it could.
 
Last edited:
Yeah going to agree with volkner on ban sleep. Also ban bolt beak and guerrilla tactics/intrepidsword and body press and possibly vcreate. The meta is so hugely overcentralized by powerful attackers its kind of disgusting. I literally have to run levitate reshiram or fur coat goliscopod to not die to Zacian.


That or just like bring back a national dex so we can actually check the op mons
Yes. Either make it NDex BH or ban Zacian-c (best bolt beak user), Zamazenta-c (best body press user) and both abilities mentioned above. Zacian is extremely good (and if you set up your team to counter itself, Imposter's a joke) and little can properly answer it except maybe trickster destiny bond.

I've run an all Zacian-C team to moderately good effect and the answers people have for it are slightly laughable, except Reshiram, thanks to prankster shenanigans (though zamazenta might be a better status mon)
 
252 Atk Tough Claws Kyurem-Black V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Doublade: 112-134 (34.7 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I assume you picked Kyu-B here for its equal base Attack to Zacian, but this calc is not relevant in the current meta. Zacian will likely be Choice Band with Gorilla Tactics or Intrepid Sword, or boosted to +2 with Shell Smash. All of these equal a 2HKO for FC Doublade. This puts it in the same boat is Melmetal and Zamazenta.

Also, the Gen 8 forum opened up here so you could probably move the discussion to it now.
 
I assume you picked Kyu-B here for its equal base Attack to Zacian, but this calc is not relevant in the current meta. Zacian will likely be Choice Band with Gorilla Tactics or Intrepid Sword, or boosted to +2 with Shell Smash. All of these equal a 2HKO for FC Doublade. This puts it in the same boat is Melmetal and Zamazenta.

Also, the Gen 8 forum opened up here so you could probably move the discussion to it now.
Hey! I didn’t want to consider the abilities bc they are on the watchlist to be banned...

Still, Choice Band and Shell Smash are a factor.

Unless...

Zecian who?

Omg! I just realized! The best counter is Darm-Z! Fur Coat and it blocks Fire, Steel, Fighting, Fairy, and packs STAB Fire in return. I guess it takes an old favorite to wall a new “over-powered”.

Put that sword down Zacian! Darm-Z has got a bottle of L’Oréal for its thick Fur Coat, and it isn’t getting brushed aside!

You got a crown? Darm-Z will still take you down!

29456CB5-BB0F-4B1E-8937-9480AC8C079A.png

Ya it’s a 93.3% for a 4HKO, with Sunsteel, Hustle, Life Orb.

Darm—Z was a Z before Zacian!

As for Hustle Choice Band... a guaranteed 3HKO on Sunsteel. Talk about PP stalling.

B9AFD412-3F1C-470D-A723-5C747C8807EB.png

No wonder it has a cousin in the Galar region, Darm-Z ain’t scared of nobody! It’s staying in Zen Mode!

Hustle = Gorilla Tactics/Intrepid Sword. Ya, now I considered Band and potentially banned abilities. I got that on but Darm-Z just chilling like it don’t care.

P.S. Yes, I did change it’s type, look at the screenshot closely ;). We done? Cuz Zacian got toasted!

Speaking of toasted, look at this calc:

252 SpA Darmanitan-Zen Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-Black: 320-380 (82.4 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Recoil off Life Orb just ended this whole Box Legend man’s career.

No Thank You! Zacian!

Nneexxtt!

Yes Tank You! Darm-Z.

A new King of Walls has emerged! And that King of Swords is dethrowned!
 
Last edited:
252 Atk Life Orb Kyurem-Black Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 182-216 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kyurem-Black Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Darmanitan-Zen: 210-246 (50.7 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kyurem-Black Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 124-148 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- approx. 36.6% chance to 3HKO (also has 60% chance to flinch)

good "wall" darm isn't special it's just another check to zacian which can get screwed over if zacian is running a different set you prepped for

e: anyway stop posting here about gen8 stuff
Can Zacian viably run Head Smash on a set?
Thanks for your good point Heavyweapons Mann
——————
pazza take your own advice on where to post. You actually obligated me to reply and correct your post by talking about it here yourself...

This, and the fact Darmanitan-Z can Dynamax to boost Blue Flare to 150 Base Power for a 1HKO, prevent flinch in that form, and double it’s HP.

If Zacian Dynamaxes, it loses the precious Flinch chance and disarms the Choice Band item as well.

It’s also conveniently unfair for you to omit Leftovers on all of your calculations, especially for the ones that are barely even 2HKOs.

Watch how a simple item changes those %s of a 2HKO, as that’s assuming you don’t miss with Head Smash, etc.

Also unless you pack Serene Grace, and thus forgoing Tinted Lens, you don’t just double the percentage due to the number of hits. Hence why Parental Bond + Sacred Fire, or Diamond Storm don’t have a 100% to trigger their effect if they hit the foe 2x in a row, even though each hit is 50%. Each hit has an individual chance to hit, so it’s very much a 70% chance, per hit, to not flinch.

Cmon man, that’s just basic math comprehension.

Actual Calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb Kyurem-Black Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 182-216 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kyurem-Black Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Darmanitan-Zen: 210-246 (50.7 - 59.4%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - 0HKO: Not actually a set

252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kyurem-Black Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 124-148 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Considering how Darmanitan-Z almost 1HKOs with STAB Blue Flare, I believe it is the best physical wall because it shows up, uses a STAB move and Zacian is at 2-17% without having to randomly slap on a Coverage move like some walls need in order to force out what it is meant to check/counter.

Plus, is Zacian running Magic Guard off of having little to actually slap on a physical set? Hi-Jump Kick, Head Smash? Steel Beam and Light of Ruin are both special attack, Bro.

No STAB on relevant attacks? Why bother.

Edit: Uh oh, GL Volkner seems upset. Everyone watch out. Or do what I did and click “Ignore”. ;) #Invisible
 
Last edited:
OM! I don’t totally know if Leftovers makes that much of a difference or if it’s more valuable to have Spore/hazard immunity.
I feel like it makes enough of a difference only bc of how close it was to 2HKOs. Leftovers handles the safety net needed. But yes, for most other calcs, the other items are better, although my set uses Volt Switch, so I can dynamax for anti-sleep due to electric terrain, and then have a rapid spin/defogger.

Ya, I might switch to anti-hazard item now as most people set-up rather than rely on Choice Band. Good call, I am switching now.

Also, just test, and Fur Coat boosts Body Press, making Zamazenta have Pure Power for that move, throw in a Steel type move for Dynamax boosting Defenses, and Body Press boosting Attack in Dynamax, and when the form change ends, you can basically have mutually boosted Zamazenta with Fur Coat shenanigans to keep it healthy. I have been running the following.

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Black Belt
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Body Press
- Sunsteel Strike
- Recover

Zamentia off +6 Def and Fur Coat is 3416 with STAB on Body Press.

Better than Simple at this point as an example:

100 Def x 2 from Fur Coat = 200 x 2.5 from Cotton Guard = 450 Defense.
100 Def x 4 from Simple Cotton Guard = 400 Defense.

This is key as now walls can mixed sweep/sweep with Body Press, so stuff like Shuckle can Body Press under Fur Coat for Trick Room sweeps. My Body Press Doublade did 29% to Toxipex on an unSTABBed, resisted, 80 base power move. Not bad for something that has 152 defense.

I bring up Doublade bc of stuff like Eviolite also boosting Defense. People don't need to sleep on Eviolite walls, and Fur Coat walls anymore, they are no longer passive, they are now actual threats. Taunt just went down in viability.

Shuckle with Fur Coat + Cotton Guard is 2794 Attack, ahem... Defense with a neutral nature. Body Press off of that under Trick Room is no joke. This makes even Simple Tail Glow look like a joke.

Calling it now- Trick Room on bulky offense teams, thanks to Body Press, are now going to be a thing.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top