I never said they weren't bad or irrelevant. But you can't deny that most mons in this metagame have at least one form of setup set, and usage stats show that setup is getting to be increasingly prevalent. The only Pokemon which don't run setup overwhelmingly is Mega Mewtwo Y because Sheer Force is astrofuckingnomically powerful to the point of where it already 2HKOes pretty much anything it wants to and Pokemon like Mega Diancie who run -ate abilities.first off, deo a is a pretty irrelevant and bad mon, like coil aero (at least some of that usage was pressure shenanigans lol) so i don't think it should be brought up here.
I already made the argument that checks to setup are necessary. Look at how used abilities like Prankster and Unaware are. Every single relevant wall has Prankster or Unaware as its' most used ability. Is that not a problem here?no they don't, i've never heard anyone say this. yeah, setup is strong on hyper offense. it's strong on certain balance builds that use a breaker and a sweeper with the defensive core (like that one sample with cb kyub + ph xern + def core). but it isn't good on every type of balance, and its usefulness definitely fades out when you move towards hard stall. checks to setup, on the other hand, are necessary on every team, which i think would make a better argument.
People were already asking for certain setup to get banned before this argument even started. My argument is the inverse of yours. Would Sleep still be overpowered without stuff like Contrary or Shell Smash? Would Sleep be unmanageable without setup? That's something I want an answer to.yeah, sleep makes setup better. but doesn't this mean that setup would be easy to deal with if we restricted or banned sleep? you say that setup can use sleep to bypass potential checks, and by this logic it looks like sleep is the real issue here, because it makes setup unmanageable.
But are these as big of a problem as you claim them to be? I guess they can be frustrating to face. But whenever I've faced or used fast PH users with Spore in specific, I never found them to be particularly overpowered by any means. I can't really say the same with Pokemon that use Spore then Smash the following turn or Contrary users.another thing i want to say is that sleep isn't necessarily manageable even without setup. the most prominent examples of this are the fast ph users, mmx and phero (and zeraora if u want).
I still don't see an issue in trying a Sleep Clause even if we eventually need to do a hard Sleep ban down the line. Sleep isn't a big enough issue that it needs immediate attention and it probably never will be. It's not that I don't support a hard Sleep ban, but I disagree with that being the first action we take.