BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[ShedMiddleFinga]

When you attempt to divert community discussion when it's right on the verge of a suspect you actually limit the communities effectiveness. Several members wanting one ban and another group wanting another can make it look like there's not enough support for a suspect on either, when in reality almost everyone involved wants both things dealt with, the disagreement is just about the order in which they are dealt with.
I know I want to ban shell smash every bit as much as sleep (if you see my original post that started this discussion i talked about sleep and dazzling/smash) but seeing as there's been 2 full pages of discussion about sleep recently (which is more than I can remember for any suspect that I've seen) I think that waiting until the sleep suspect is finished is the obvious course of action. If it's really true that "it's not that I don't support a hard sleep ban" then I hope you realize this.

 

[willdbeast]

1. implement a sleep clause. I personally think this would be the preferred outcome to keep the competitive usage of sleep, but it may be too drastic of a step
2. ban specific sleep moves. I don't believe in banning sleep in its entirety. I actually do agree with Shed that we do not need to be tied to the way other tiers usually solve this by having a sleep clause. If there is interest in suspecting individual moves one by one after seeing how they do then I think we should facilitate that, just as it's done in 1v1
3. there are enough tools available to handle sleep; no further action is needed

Thoughts:
1) I like this idea. Even if some of the competitiveness issues around sleep still remain I think this would make the strategy much less overbearing and give much more room for counterplay. You can still bring things that counter sleep (PH etc) that are aimed at checking the main sleep abusers, whatever they might be in this hypothetical meta, but if the opponent has some sleep user that you haven't got a sleep immune check to you can try to lure their sleep move on something else or try your luck. Sure this is still going to be deadly if used well but I don't see how this is too much more than say luring a wall with a Z-move and/or coverage and other similar strategies. Best case scenario you give up a moveslot to disable a mon of your choice with the potential of it being okay later if they play right and worse case you give up a moveslot for some pp to burn.

2) idk I feel the problem with this is either you ban so much it might as well be a sleep ban or it doesn't really address any of the points people have been making, most people don't seem to be saying the problem is that sleep is too reliable it seems to be p much the opposite. Maybe if we ban all sleep except dark void at least you know it's coming lol

3) maybe, if we have a poll we'll see what people think. There certainly are a myriad of ways to deal with sleep, with things like PH being exceptional even when the opponent has no sleep and misty surge, magic bounce, comatose all being useful for other things but the problem is you can only have so many of these on a team and the right sleep abuser might just ohko all you sleep checks or w/e (like hypothetically they have spore mdiancie and ohko your bounce aegi, PH zyg and magic guard ho-oh then sleep hax you into the abyss, but maybe this is just poor teambuilding not having decent answers)

 

[SuperSkylake]

I believe that implementing a sleep clause won't really help matters much at the high end. Due to the large amount of role compression on bh teams, having one mon out of commission for the battle is extremely crippling. You are basically exchanging the effectiveness of a full Pokemon for one move on the opposing Pokemon. Sleep Clause will help against teams with multiple sleep-abusing mons such as PH Regigigas + Xerneas. Because of the ability of any Pokemon to run any move, any Pokemon can run a Sleep move, so you don't even know if you will need that wall that they just slept.

But the clause won't really help against teams that run only one sleep abuser, and there are plenty of those floating around. A replay, hot off the press as of 10 minutes of this post going up, demonstrates the point.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-844497723

A sleep clause would not have made this replay any better. Imagine if there was a Sleep Clause for the duration of this paragraph. it would have prevented the opponent from sleeping Giratina, but that's not a Xern counter anyway, and I just wanted to haze the Quiver Dance boost with it. The real problem is Lovely Kiss, which is a very low risk, high reward move and doesn't award skill at all. If the LK user is a Poison-type or is already statused, you can click it mindlessly against anything that isn't already statused. At worst nothing happens (they switch out to a sleep absorber or it gets magic bounced), because your opponent can't really risk having a mon put to sleep, unless their matchup advantage is overwhelming and they can just fodder off something that's useless. At best, you keep something out of commission for three turns. Really nothing can go wrong for you, because your opponent, except for in a desperate situation, won't count on the move missing.

"But you just had a really bad matchup against PH Xerneas," a bunch of people will tell me. It's true that I don't have the hardest wall to PH Xerneas, which is probably PH Ho-Oh, or Magic Bounce Kyogre. The fact that Lovely Kiss can limit a Pokemon that would have 4 or 5 defensive walls (we include things like FF Mega Venusaur, FF Ferrothorn, Primsea Celesteela with Goggles) to 2 uncommon sets, shows that it's Lovely Kiss that is causing a lot of these problems.

In addition, the main ways that players deal with sleep these days is to prevent it from happening to some of their Pokemon. This wouldn't change if sleep clause were implemented, and it wouldn't prevent walls that weren't already immunized from being slept and put out of commission. (On a side note, I don't know if Magic Bounced sleep counts as self-inflicted or not, but that might have to be taken into account because if you can only bounce back sleep against one Pokemon on the enemy team, then Sleep spam might still be an okay strategy.)

It's been canvased so many times, but the page changed and so it's already buried so I'll write it again. Why not spore? There is far more viable counterplay to spore, including Safety Goggles and Grass-types, to stop it, and its 100% accuracy makes games cleaner because people don't have to try to go for Lovely Kiss misses in a last ditch attempt to turn a game around. But some people say, you can knock off Safety Goggles. But the fact that you have to Knock Off the goggles means that you lose a turn, which can be costly. If you are losing to Regigigas because your Safety Goggles got knocked off, then that's a fault in your team, and you need to accept that. None of my teams lose to PH Regigigas; no one else's need to either.

TLDR: By banning lovely kiss, the next bess sleep move is Hypnosis, which has 60% accuracy. You are basically flipping a coin in order to avoid Grass-types and Goggles, which seems fair enough to me. If people aren't willing to run Focus Blast, which has 70 accuracy, they probably won't want to risk running Hypnosis. And if it turns out that they do, we can ban it too. But we really don't need to ban Spore. And a Sleep Clause will probably be next to useless, because you really need every Pokemon on your team awake to put up a hard fight of it.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

Hello all, I'd like to just take a moment to look at some replays that I thought were relevant to sleep. I did my best to make sure that every replay was between two competent players.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-823516722


Yeeter Griffin in this battle has 2 goggles and a PH mon, yet he still lost because of some crucial sleep turns on kyogre, this affected his ability to wall kartana later down the line.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-609112760


This game was played against free my man tele who is a very strong player (has an account with 96.7% gxe which is the highest I've seen since gen 6). I know psysurge is banned now but if the mmy was tinted specs the game would have been played exactly the same. Tele lost to a 3 turn sleep on his mewtwo which allowed sceptile and later gengar to set up on a mon they had no right setting up on. Another very interesting thing I take from this battle is flowre’s rank at the end. At the end of this battle he was 1760. I find this interesting because he was completely new to the tier and within a few weeks had hit 1700 using a team that had 5 separate mons use spore. The fact that his rank is so high is an indicator of the many battles I am not showing you that yielded similar results. The fact that he was able to obtain said rank with little experience in the tier is an indication of the lack of skill involved with spore and also shows it's consistency at winning battles.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-604221032


Another interesting battle, this time vs deez nuts junior (he has hit 1900 elo and 94% gxe). notice that deez nuts had 3 sleep counters on his team in the form of goggles, PH, and magic bounce. The goggles got knocked off regi and he lost due to crucial sleep turns allowing sceptile to kill 3 mons when it should have died to destiny bond. The important thing to note was 0 of the sleep “checks” could actually check sceptile or hoopa. this is because mons who use sleep don't just run 1 move, they run 3 more which can kill your sleep checks. No mon is immune to the myriad of pokemon who use sleep. Half the tier loses to vcreate spore boomburst on ates while Adapt/mold gengar can KO xern and tina. While mewtwo can kill all number of steels and so so many things lose to contrary (ban where) the only way to ensure you can check sleep is to run a heavy stall team with misty terrain, as terrain allows any of your pokemon to wall a sleep user and not just one. This of course fails if you lose the terrain user or terrain ends at an inopportune time and the sleep user can kill the terrain setter if it comes in. I find the argument "just use terrain lol" pretty stupid though to be honest. Didn't pdon get banned because nobody wanted to run FC tina on every team? You shouldn't be forced to run something or to lose, that falls into the category of overcenteralization and makes it bannable. Anyway, I would go as far as to say that sleep on regi cost junior the game and he would have likely won if that had not happened.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-742126725

This replay is of me being extremely salty against the same team but still squeaking a win due to several key predictions and rng luck. (Yes I would consider myself a good player as I have gotten three 50-0s this gen, two 95% gxes, and gotten to 1900+ elo) I lost ray due to a “mispredict” against sceptile thinking dazzling gar would come in off the espeed and lose me the game (I would have been locked into espeed) If sceptile stayed in and I used espeed then gar would come in to revenge kill and I would also have lost the game. (so i think it was still the right play) and mmy thinking that the opponent would heal (stupid on my part) but aside from that I had very few errors. This game showcased my opponents team (except belly drum nekroz) and revealed the presence of spore on 5/6 mons (not mewtwo). I firmly believe that I only won because I had earlier lost to the same team and new exactly the sets I was facing. Had I not I might have lost to an errant spore. Either way I think this game is highly uncompetitive due to the game being decided on a number of coinflips.


Simply the fact that an inexperienced player can slap 5 spores on a team and reach 1700s is absolutely disgusting and suggests that something needs to be done. I really don't know what else to say. It seems pretty self explanatory to me.

 

[a loser]

Ran into a couple ladder teams that were spamming sleep so I wanted to share these replays. I believe that each of these replays show off the uncompetitive aspects of sleep.

Featuring Knock Off + Spore on PH Xerneas

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-846566617
Normally, PH Xern shouldn't be able to win vs Unaware Arceus with Worry Seed, but here losing my goggles to Knock Off Xern ends up costing me the game. The opponent even says that their only hope to win the game was multiple turns of sleep, and if you play long enough it is bound to happen. (Never mind the fact that the game could have been over if I stayed in with MMX to click Photon instead of predicting a switch)

THREE 3 Turn Sleeps net 3 KOs

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-846581328
This one is fun. The opponent lands THREE 3 turn sleeps and each of them result in a KO. The Arceus KO wouldn't have normally happened, but the opponent got the full sleep session and a critical hit. The Giratina and Audino KO's would have still happened, but Destiny Bond would have brought down Xerneas with them in either case. Not sure how this would have played out in the end without one or more of these, but Xern wouldn't have been able to sweep most likely.

Revenge, but sleep hax is still relevant

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-846592311
In this one I get revenge, but it didn't come easy. The opponent lands a freeze early on, which leads to my Xern answer going down before Xern even shows its face. My luck comes in on turn 16 & 17 when I get a one turn sleep followed by a Lovely Kiss miss. But if it had landed or the opponent had used Spore instead, Beedrill likely would be KO'd by Xern. If this had happened, I'd be left trying to bait Xern with Destiny Bond (twice) while hoping to get good sleep turns (twice). That's not very competitive.

These replays also reinforce to me that a sleep clause would at least provide some help. Sleep spamming teams (2+ sleep setters) are able to pull off wins like this if they get lucky, but these teams wouldn't exist in a clause meta.

 

[Greenheroes]

Silent Night prelude to sleep suspect.
I just woke up in time to talk about this this year.


In my eyes sleep moves are harmless;

Safety Googles blocking Spore is about as huge as an item granting you type or move immunity.
75% accuracy is your 2nd best bet.
Your opponents items are unknown beforehand, plus they can be easily changed.
Lum Berry/Chesto Berry can give that one free turn to ruin a sleep strategy.
If your opponent is faster and can KO you, your permasleep (church talk).
The sleep timer is on YOU.

Prankster status can be blocked by Psychic Terrain, Misty Terrain blocks non Prankster status aswell.
With Terrain Extender status battle strategies can get disabled for 8 turns.
If only 1 of your pokes is getting walled the Terrain setter can re set up indefinitely, PP stall included.

Sleep used to be an old Anti-Imposter mechanic, but with better move effects around its less efficient now.
Putting multiple pokes to sleep is the fun factor, Prankster Magikarp and Transform Pikachu can do it.

Over Generations sleep has been nerfed too much, people worry about Bad Dreams instead of Dream Eater.
Contrast point would be a set upper losing all boosts after scoring 2 KOs.
Sleep is good on meta stuff like Contrary MMY or Triage M-Ray to get passed walls.


Here a selfmade Truck Driver Quote "I was asleep and i woke up in a Pokemon Center."
Have a good sleep 365 times next year, those who take a day nap 730 times.

I disagree with the option to put a sleep move on triage m-ray or contrary MMY because they need coverage and ways to get rid of shedinja, and that take all 4 slots (+m-ray triage like to have a prio that can beat m-diancie before it can fake out/primal-kyogre like giga drain)

 

[E4 Flint]

the Sleep Poll is live here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-poll-6-sleep.3646010/

 

[a loser]

So after playing in this sleep clause meta for a little bit, I'm realizing something that was brought up a little during discussion but not as much as other things. Its known and was stated during discussion that PH sweepers commonly use sleep as a means of improofing. We knew that a clause or a ban on sleep would definitely affect these mons utility but maybe not to what extent.

In the clause meta, sleep can still be used to improof PH mons, but it has to be played much more carefully on both sides of the field. As the sweeper, say PH Gigas, you would like to be able to put walls to sleep so you can knock them out with brute force. However, putting walls like Giratina and Registeel to sleep leaves room for imposter to come in and potentially take on your Gigas and win without fear of being slept. This goes for the defender as well. If you think imposter is healthy enough to come in and win, you can try to lead Gigas to sleep someone else and bring in imposter. Or, you can sleep something else so that the Gigas check is free to come in and deal with it that way.

This goes for more than just PH mons who sleep, such as Contrary, Triage, etc. If sleep was the only means of improofing you had for your sweeper, it could mean big trouble for you if imposter overpowers you.

Seeing as this works for both sides of the field, I think it is a competitive aspect that is requiring more strategy for setting sleep rather than just declaring nap time for the entire opposing team. I don't think that the clause is the perfect answer for this issue but it might be the best out of our options. Banning specific moves looks good on paper, but I don't think anyone will be satisfied with that until the highest accuracy move left is 60%.

 

[Champion Leon]

So after playing in this sleep clause meta for a little bit, I'm realizing something that was brought up a little during discussion but not as much as other things. Its known and was stated during discussion that PH sweepers commonly use sleep as a means of improofing. We knew that a clause or a ban on sleep would definitely affect these mons utility but maybe not to what extent.

In the clause meta, sleep can still be used to improof PH mons, but it has to be played much more carefully on both sides of the field. As the sweeper, say PH Gigas, you would like to be able to put walls to sleep so you can knock them out with brute force. However, putting walls like Giratina and Registeel to sleep leaves room for imposter to come in and potentially take on your Gigas and win without fear of being slept. This goes for the defender as well. If you think imposter is healthy enough to come in and win, you can try to lead Gigas to sleep someone else and bring in imposter. Or, you can sleep something else so that the Gigas check is free to come in and deal with it that way.

This goes for more than just PH mons who sleep, such as Contrary, Triage, etc. If sleep was the only means of improofing you had for your sweeper, it could mean big trouble for you if imposter overpowers you.

Seeing as this works for both sides of the field, I think it is a competitive aspect that is requiring more strategy for setting sleep rather than just declaring nap time for the entire opposing team. I don't think that the clause is the perfect answer for this issue but it might be the best out of our options. Banning specific moves looks good on paper, but I don't think anyone will be satisfied with that until the highest accuracy move left is 60%.

I completely agree. No Guard might be another Sleep Clause casualty for Sing users, and it might also impact the reason (niche) for using Grass types like Sceptile-Mega over other Contrary users.
Lastly, it will also affect the commonality of Safety Goggles.
With less need for it, new items will begin to stand out as well.

Further, other status moves can be seen as necessary for teams such as Burn, or Paralysis.

I believe your points in how the metagame will change by this one new Clause will be a much bigger ripple effect than we might have originally considered. In a way, it adds more diversity to items, moves, and even abilities. In another we have been so privileged and entitled to think we can just slap Spore in anything that it will force us to come up with new ways to stop threats, or become a threat.

 

[SuperSkylake]

After playing in this sleep clause meta, I am actually inclined to believe that running sleep on your mons is even more of a reward than it used to be. People assume that sleep is not as prevalent, and so have been switching their Safety Goggles out for other items. That means that if your team decides to use sleep, you have an advantage. Because of the widely varying nature of threats in the metagame, most teams can only afford a single hard counter to even the toughest threats. If that threat crops up, and is running sleep, and the sole counter isn't running something to counteract being slept, your team will be swept by that threat. On the flipside, if they do turn out to be resistant to sleep, then you've just wasted a move slot (though you can just knock off the goggles or something). For example, Triage Mega Rayquaza with Spore is arguably more effective than it used to be because mons like Prankster Registeel are no longer running Safety Goggles, in favor of things like leftovers or Helmet. Another beneficiary of the sleep clause is Contrary sweepers, which can easily spiral out of control with the free turns generated by sleep. Ab

 

[Ren]

tysequaine promised me a like, karaoke and a reenactment of a vine if i post so here we go

I don't think a Sleep Clause is a very effective solution to the problem, if there is one.

For one, this is BH - If you have to decide on a mon to fodder to sleep late game, that's fine once you've figured out the opponent. However, early game, it's a lot more difficult to decide which Pokemon to sack to sleep, because they are all very important early on in the game, or rather their importance isn't established yet.

On the other hand, there's also the mindgames that sleep produces in an environment where sleep is limited to only one Pokemon. If you select sleep fodder, and it's a Pokemon that loses to the sleep user, such as sleep foddering tina to ph xern so your regi can check it, Xerneas can still click Moonblast and ruin your tina on the switch, and then you've lost your sleep fodder. What now? You can only play this mindgame so often.

In addition, you can't actually reduce the amount you prepare for sleep (honestly idk how much you all prepare, I still firmly believe this suspect is a result of laziness and convenience but w/e) by much because you still have to prepare for Pokemon that commonly run sleep, and you can't just teambuild with a dedicated fodder in mind because it's all mu dependent. You'll have a different fodder every game, and some games you may not even be able to have a fodder - So what'll you do?

I really think proceeding with a Sleep Clause would be a mistake. It's an unnecessary ban which won't actually do anything, and above all (I don't think there's any problem but) the problem you all wanted to address as a community isn't even addressed by Sleep Clause.

 

[Champion Leon]

tysequaine promised me a like, karaoke and a reenactment of a vine if i post so here we go

I don't think a Sleep Clause is a very effective solution to the problem, if there is one.

For one, this is BH - If you have to decide on a mon to fodder to sleep late game, that's fine once you've figured out the opponent. However, early game, it's a lot more difficult to decide which Pokemon to sack to sleep, because they are all very important early on in the game, or rather their importance isn't established yet.

On the other hand, there's also the mindgames that sleep produces in an environment where sleep is limited to only one Pokemon. If you select sleep fodder, and it's a Pokemon that loses to the sleep user, such as sleep foddering tina to ph xern so your regi can check it, Xerneas can still click Moonblast and ruin your tina on the switch, and then you've lost your sleep fodder. What now? You can only play this mindgame so often.

In addition, you can't actually reduce the amount you prepare for sleep (honestly idk how much you all prepare, I still firmly believe this suspect is a result of laziness and convenience but w/e) by much because you still have to prepare for Pokemon that commonly run sleep, and you can't just teambuild with a dedicated fodder in mind because it's all mu dependent. You'll have a different fodder every game, and some games you may not even be able to have a fodder - So what'll you do?

I really think proceeding with a Sleep Clause would be a mistake. It's an unnecessary ban which won't actually do anything, and above all (I don't think there's any problem but) the problem you all wanted to address as a community isn't even addressed by Sleep Clause.

What if the only Sleep check/counter you need is a PHealer, Comatose, or Magic Bouncer? Comatose also prevents ability removal from Mold Breaker, Entrainment and Core Enforcer, so you won’t even need a Fairy Type.

Why does this matter? Because your opponent is now less likely to have sleep moves on more than one Pokémon, therefore if you pick a generally strong Comatose candidate, you won’t have to consider having fodder, as the Sleep Clause is actually impacting the Sleep user’s team build strategy/reliance on using Sleep offensively before the match even begins. Also, if you Scout to know which Pokémon has a Sleep move (I.e. Imposter), you probably found their only Sleep move on their team. All because of Sleep Clause... now you can send in a Comatose Pokémon and stop it from Sleeping your team.

If a generally useful Comatose Pokémon can handle most common Sleepers, and teams typically use only 1 Sleep move, doesn’t the Sleep Clause make it easier to work around it on your team defensively, since it discourages Sleep as an offensive strategy?

Sometimes the trade off for Sleep was more important than other status/attacks.

Case in point No Guard Mewtwo-Mega-Y.

Is there less of a reason to use Sing over Inferno or Zap Cannon with the Sleep Clause? Certainly, as once a Pokémon is asleep you may as well have only 3 moves on it until the sleeping Pokémon awakens. Since Inferno and Zap Cannon deal Damage, and can target up to all 6 Pokémon with a status, the trade off for using a damageless move such as Sing gets noticeable, not to mention their advantages in not being Magic Bouncesble, Tauntable, etc. all add up.

We have to assume that the likelihood of someone investing more into adding or relying on Sleep has diminished.

I think we are missing the bigger point here:

The clause served the purpose of diminishing the need for teams to depend/use Sleep, whether or not it actually diminished the need to prepare for it.

We shouldn’t only define how the Sleep Clause impacted teams defensively, we should note how it impacted teams offensively.

Afterall, is Sing on No Guard MMY going to still be a good option? Or is it now simply a decent one? I doubt MMY is the only sleeper that has to weigh this decision.

 

[Zovrah]

Yeah I've been on the stance of sleep clause not actually solving anything, or at least, solving so little it doesn't matter.

What if the only Sleep check/counter you need is a PHealer, Comatose, or Magic Bouncer? Comatose also prevents ability removal from Mold Breaker, Entrainment and Core Enforcer, so you won’t even need a Fairy Type.

Why does this matter? Because your opponent is now less likely to have sleep moves on more than one Pokémon, therefore if you pick a generally strong Comatose candidate, you won’t have to consider having fodder, as the Sleep Clause is actually impacting the Sleep user’s team build strategy/reliance on using Sleep offensively before the match even begins. Also, if you Scout to know which Pokémon has a Sleep move (I.e. Imposter), you probably found their only Sleep move on their team. All because of Sleep Clause... now you can send in a Comatose Pokémon and stop it from Sleeping your team.

If a generally useful Comatose Pokémon can handle most common Sleepers, and teams typically use only 1 Sleep move, doesn’t the Sleep Clause make it easier to work around it on your team defensively, since it discourages Sleep as an offensive strategy?

Sometimes the trade off for Sleep was more important than other status/attacks.

Case in point No Guard Mewtwo-Mega-Y.

Is there less of a reason to use Sing over Inferno or Zap Cannon with the Sleep Clause? Certainly, as once a Pokémon is asleep you may as well have only 3 moves on it until the sleeping Pokémon awakens. Since Inferno and Zap Cannon deal Damage, and can target up to all 6 Pokémon with a status, the trade off for using a damageless move such as Sing gets noticeable, not to mention their advantages in not being Magic Bouncesble, Tauntable, etc. all add up.

We have to assume that the likelihood of someone investing more into adding or relying on Sleep has diminished.

I think we are missing the bigger point here:

The clause served the purpose of diminishing the need for teams to depend/use Sleep, whether or not it actually diminished the need to prepare for it.

We shouldn’t only define how the Sleep Clause impacted teams defensively, we should note how it impacted teams offensively.

Afterall, is Sing on No Guard MMY going to still be a good option? Or is it now simply a decent one? I doubt MMY is the only sleeper that has to weigh this decision.

Okay lets look at some mons that can viably run comatose. Tina for example. It checks gigas well, and with ph xern you really should be using something else thats more reliable. So what sleep users are we left with then..?

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 206-244 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
No guard, tina doesn't enjoy coming in on this one.

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 134-158 (26.5 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Thats without item against ph mmx. Tina does pretty well against that.

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 176-208 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 262-310 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Though I don't think ph ogre is really all that great, it's not so bad that comatose giratina checks it.

+3 252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 486-572 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Another spore/sleep user tina doesn't handle (Triage Ray)

252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 378-446 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 196-232 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 244-288 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO (Assuming mmy predicts tina's switch in)
(I don't need to show that +2 is a kill)
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 204-240 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

My overall point here is that "just run comatose lol" doesn't work out. At best youre checking some sleep runners that nearly no one has had issues with in ages (ph gigas/xern/ogre). The problamatic sleep users destroy stops to sleep, which is the issue sleep clause doesnt solve. Sure mmy can sleep one thing now but 9/10 it will have zero problems getting rid of the mon that takes a nap, meaning you're out a mon bc of sleep and sleep clause didn't help.

 

[Champion Leon]

Yeah I've been on the stance of sleep clause not actually solving anything, or at least, solving so little it doesn't matter.

Okay lets look at some mons that can viably run comatose. Tina for example. It checks gigas well, and with ph xern you really should be using something else thats more reliable. So what sleep users are we left with then..?

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 206-244 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
No guard, tina doesn't enjoy coming in on this one.

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 134-158 (26.5 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Thats without item against ph mmx. Tina does pretty well against that.

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 176-208 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 262-310 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Though I don't think ph ogre is really all that great, it's not so bad that comatose giratina checks it.

+3 252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 486-572 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Another spore/sleep user tina doesn't handle (Triage Ray)

252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 378-446 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 196-232 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 244-288 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO (Assuming mmy predicts tina's switch in)
(I don't need to show that +2 is a kill)
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 204-240 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

My overall point here is that "just run comatose lol" doesn't work out. At best youre checking some sleep runners that nearly no one has had issues with in ages (ph gigas/xern/ogre). The problamatic sleep users destroy stops to sleep, which is the issue sleep clause doesnt solve. Sure mmy can sleep one thing now but 9/10 it will have zero problems getting rid of the mon that takes a nap, meaning you're out a mon bc of sleep and sleep clause didn't help.

To be fair, if a Pokémon won’t boost, while hitting with a 3HKO, like No Guard MMY, that means Giratina can always switch in and survive, and even stall out with Shore Up, considering Blizzard has only 8 PP.

Plus, isn’t Giratina able to threaten it with Spectral Thief as well, especially if carrying Grisceous Orb- *I used Spooky Plate because the Calc won’t factor in the boost for this form of Giratina for Grisceous Orb, but it would in BH*

252 Atk Spooky Plate Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 290-344 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So it can come in to block Sleep, survive 2 Blizzards, and heal up along the way. In between heals, just 2 Spectral Thiefs KO MMY. So Tina wins.

The whole No Item on MMX Knock Off is actually pretty realistic since you cannot Knock Off Grisceous Orb, and thus it won’t ever be a 3HKO unless they boost, which it won’t want to boost thanks to Spectral Thief.

252 Atk Spooky Plate Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 234-276 (56.2 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Now, compared the 4HKO you have listed for MMX on Tina, Giratina wins...

So for both Mewtwo, Comatose Tina can handle them.
——————
For Kyogre which somehow gets a +1 boost, we know Giratina can carry Spectral Thief, so even if it switches into Quiver Dance, next turn it can steal the boosts as it takes Ice Beam, and now Giratina has +1 Special Defense from Quiver Dance. If Tina has Core Enforcer as well, we know it can remove Poison Heal and Kyogre will not be able to stay in and keep boosting.

The only mons that are immune to Spectral are Regigigas/Slaking (which you mentioned is countered pretty well by Giratina), and Arceus. Core Enforcer can still obligate PHeal Regi/Slaking to switch out as well thanks to Toxic Damage.
—————
It’s pretty funny how You offer no credit to what Giratina can do in response... as Kyogre, like the Mewtwos, are at best 3HKOs, except for Fleur Cannon, and boosts can be taken away if they ever try it, like Quiver Dance or Contrary Psycho Boost (MMY loses to 2 Spectral, while it doesn’t 2HKO Tina since it lost the boosts). This includes Ice Hammer MMX, and since Giratina can block Superpower, even Contrarians cannot boost their Attack stat.
—————
The Setpedia lists Timid or Naive, not Modest for Triage, and it makes sense... it can speedtie other opposing Triage Rayquaza-Mega, and outspeed Diancie-Mega, if you can finish it off in the event it packs Fake-Out.

+3 252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 442-522 (87.6 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Also- “If Triage Ray did Tail Glow” that’s like my Ice Shard Dazzling Slaking setting up Belly Drum and then Prankster Zygarde comes in... does that mean Prankster Zygarde can never stop it? What if they are both pivoted in?

Worst case scenario doesn’t mean only case scenario. Yes a check has to be safely switching into a Pokémon without fear of the next turn netting a 1HKO. But with only a 25% to be KOed, you can at least do Spectral or Core Enforcer once to remove the boost or abilities, send in something else:

252 SpA Draco Plate Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 258-306 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now you can send in a Normal-Type like Arceus on their expected followup Moongeist Beam, as its Immune, and outspeed to KO, since Triage is gone.
—————
Also, if we believe that the Pokémon you suggest will use Sleep moves on the turn Giratina switches in, hence why we use it as a Sleep Counter- at least the first time before they know what ability it has, or a less effective Attack if they predict you will switch in something else. You assume Giratina is a sitting duck, when in fact it is able to respond. This is not Cresselia, afterall.
———————
What about Poison Heal? That turns some of your 3HKOs into 4HKOs.

I could also list Misty Terrain, still keeping the same item for reducing Knock Off, since Giratina can also use that, which makes your team immune to Sleep, and diminishes Draco Meteor from Rayquaza.

So if we use Misty over Comatose, which also doesn’t mind Core Enforcer or Mold Breaker since it is activated on switch, then the only 2HKO you listed was Fleur Cannon. Psycho Boost is Spectral Thiefable Off MMY, and KOs MMY before Psycho Boost can.
——————
Of course Giratina is simply one Comatose user.

 

[Zovrah]

To be fair, if a Pokémon won’t boost, while hitting with a 3HKO, like No Guard MMY, that means Giratina can always switch in and survive, and even stall out with Shore Up, considering Blizzard has only 8 PP.

iHaha yeah because tina will always be full health and the opponent is always an idiot and keeps firing moves at something that outheals. Clearly giratina is an optimal no guard mmy check and beats it every time.

Now, compared the 4HKO you have listed for MMX on Tina, Giratina wins...

yeah i said that lol.

It’s pretty funny how You offer no credit to what Giratina can do in response

no, I gave it just the right amount of credit. What it amounts to actually accomplishing is having a sleep user do chunks of damage, switch out, and repeat. Mmy isn't staying in on the tina, mmx isnt staying in either.

and boosts can be taken away if they ever try it, like Quiver Dance or Contrary Psycho Boost (MMY loses to 2 Spectral, while it doesn’t 2HKO Tina since it lost the boosts)

hokay sure bud because mmy is choosing to come in on giratina that it cant ohko haha.

Tina isnt taking boosts if its dead.

Of course Giratina is simply one Comatose user.

Okay and im pretty damn sure no other one is as good. Thats why I listed it.

These arguments are equivalent to ones i give when shitposting n om cord, jokingly defending my claim of something being a check, knowing that to be one it needs stupidly unrealistic and/or hyper optimized situations to do what I'm claiming. You seemingly fail to realize holes in your points, like how giratina isn't going to be taking boosts from a contra mmy. Thats an absolutely absurd claim to make, one that reeks of desperation. I'd like to note i had used your post as a reason to talk about my own opinions on this, hoping you wouldnt respond because you claimed to have ignored me.

Do me a favor and commit to that.

Forgot to include that my main point was coma gira isnt reliable.

 

[Champion Leon]

iHaha yeah because tina will always be full health and the opponent is always an idiot and keeps firing moves at something that outheals. Clearly giratina is an optimal no guard mmy check and beats it every time.


yeah i said that lol.


no, I gave it just the right amount of credit. What it amounts to actually accomplishing is having a sleep user do chunks of damage, switch out, and repeat. Mmy isn't staying in on the tina, mmx isnt staying in either.


hokay sure bud because mmy is choosing to come in on giratina that it cant ohko haha.

Tina isnt taking boosts if its dead.


Okay and im pretty damn sure no other one is as good. Thats why I listed it.

These arguments are equivalent to ones i give when shitposting n om cord, jokingly defending my claim of something being a check, knowing that to be one it needs stupidly unrealistic and/or hyper optimized situations to do what I'm claiming. You seemingly fail to realize holes in your points, like how giratina isn't going to be taking boosts from a contra mmy. Thats an absolutely absurd claim to make, one that reeks of desperation. I'd like to note i had used your post as a reason to talk about my own opinions on this, hoping you wouldnt respond because you claimed to have ignored me.

Do me a favor and commit to that.

Forgot to include that my main point was coma gira isnt reliable.

Was this supposed to make me look bad or hurt my feelings?
If you need to use my posts to promote your own ideas maybe you should prove it without relying on others.

You didn’t prove me wrong. you said it couldn’t check, and it was apparent it can.

Since when does MMY get to endlessly switch in and wear down Giratina? You aren’t being realistic, otherwise no defensive would count if you just endless wear it down. Your switch out can lead to Giratina healing up, so clearly it can return to check the same Pokémon multiple times... Regenerator is the only ability that rewards switching, so are you saying that any other defensive check doesn’t count?

Also if someone was ignore you, why would you quote their post? I happened to see it as I was scrolling through before I logged in, so since it happened to include my post I thought I could log in and demonstrate where you made an error.

Your post above ignores a lot of where you were proven wrong, such as with Quiver Dance Kyogre, or if I had Poison Heal over Comatose.

Cherry picking and still not proving me wrong doesn’t help your case.

If a Pokémon can force out an offensive threat, it qualifies as a check.

Plus, it can heal if they decide to switch, just as it would heal vs a 3HKO move, thus if you cannot break past a Giratina and have to switch out on the turn it would heal either way, then clearly Giratina is in no worse shape that it was when it switched in...

Also, no one said that MMY would switch into Giratina, I said sometimes you can double pivot (your team and your opponents send in something in the same turn), and Giratina wouldn’t be threatened if it can just respond accordingly, based on the standard movesets for Comatose.

You seem to get personal over this, my focus was on the facts. It’s not that big of a deal, I hope you can move forward now.

 

[Zovrah]

This actually hurts me physically.

I literally said it was unreliable but apparetly the fact it isnt 2hkod makes it a check okay.

No its not unrealistic to assume mmy has no trouble switching out repeatedly because it fucking *can* man. You come in it sees its not doing enough so it leaves and what have you actually done outside prolonging your death. Nice job ignoring tina gets chipped too btw

Theres literally no need to address those parts. One is an actually idiotic point because hey news flash you cant just switch to ph mid battle or every time you find yourself against those specific threats and thi is about COMATOSE. but i can clearly see how im proven wrong by you not even sticking to the original topic.

Checks shouldn't require some complex play to check what theyre meant to. Coma gira doesnt check contrary mmy.

Yeah youre right I did get personal over this because your being adamant about not being wrong instead addressing the actual point of the fucking post in the first place is extremely irritating.

The bh threads are on a downward spiral and mediocre posts like this that dont address what the posts theyre in response to are about are whats bringing theyre fall.

Kill me.

 

[cityscapes]

this is really stupid

no one is arguing that gira isn't a check for these mons. people are arguing that it isn't a counter.

that's relevant because thanks to sleep, users like contrary, triage ray, and other breakers can force out an unreasonably high amount of mons and make you go into the comatose/ph user every single time.

this leads to a 50/50 heavily weighted in the sleep user's favor. if you go to gira on sleep or stay in on setup, you at best force them out. but if they set up on the giratina switch, that's a free kill, and if they sleep your mon that's currently in, it could potentially be even worse for you.

if your sleep answer can't counter them, it's really only a matter of time until it dies and everyone else gets slept and you lose. i know this because i've been in this situation so many times. i've lost because my bounce magearna couldn't counter magma storm xern so i had to rely on unreliable answers and lost because of it. i've won because my ph phero/zeraora had no ph/comatose user on the opposing team that reliably countered it. what experience do you have with sleep besides spamming your misty surge team on ladder and still getting smashed multiple times by spore tyranitar?

sleep is broken on these already dangerous sweepers, and it'll take more than these petty arguments that assume best case scenarios to convince me otherwise.

 

[E4 Flint]

The results of the Sleep Clause suspect are released concluding with the decision to implement it onto the Gen 7 BH Ladder

• Announcement
• Suspect Poll - Sleep Clause chosen over Specific Move Ban
• Voting Thread
  • Results - "Implemented" was the selected outcome

 

[Ren]

I understand we just had a suspect test on Sleep Clause, but I feel the need to address something I've never understood why it was allowed before Gen 8 arrives.

Contrary.

This is a fairly uncontroversial topic, most people I've seen discuss it have always agreed that it's somewhere on the spectrum from borderline to the most ridiculous thing in the meta. Personally, I'm on the latter extreme.

To start, let's talk about the most relevant Contrary user.

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Fairium Z / Fightinium Z / Groundium Z
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost
- Fleur Cannon
- V-Create / Overheat / Earth Power / Secret Sword / Moongeist Beam
- Taunt / Encore / Strength Sap / King's Shield

On paper, this looks fairly easy to answer, right? ...Well, actually, it doesn't but for the purposes of this argument let's assume that people believe Unaware answers Contrary. Now let's see why that's not valid.

I'm going to be providing a comprehensive list of everything I've ever seen run Unaware in this metagame. This is by no means a list of good Unawares, but rather trying to prove that Unaware isn't a good answer to Contrary regardless of which Pokemon it's on. You will see some garbage Pokemon in this list, and I'm just pointing that out right now. Again, the purpose of this set of calcs is to hopefully get rid of the notion that Unaware was ever a reliable answer to Contrary.

Unaware calcs

Chansey
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 207-243 (29.4 - 34.5%) -- 6% chance to 3HKO

This looks like it's fine, right? Until...

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 434-512 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 376-442 (53.4 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are both fairly common moves on Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y - While you wall the 2 main moves that this set "needs", you lose to 2 common coverage options. This is also ignoring how the 4th move's two first options, Taunt and Encore, also give Unaware a hard time, because it means you can lock them into Metal Burst and chip them into Sword range after they switch in, or it means you can lock them into recovery and eventually beat them with one of the two common coverage options mentioned.

Unaware Chansey answers Mega Mewtwo Y sets that are using Overheat, Moongeist Beam or Earth Power in the 3rd slot while also running Strength Sap and King's Shield in the fourth slot - But really, how good are those Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y sets? This is also ignoring how easy it is to passively chip Unaware Chansey, or just Pursuit it - Without Fur Coat, it's not too bulky.

Giratina
I don't even need to calc, it gets 2HKOed by Fleur on the switchin and loses to Moongeist.

Kyogre-Primal
While this one is one of the best Contrary answers on paper, it can't switch in on Mega Mewtwo Y's Psycho Boost if Stealth Rock is up, if it's taken equivalent chip (pretty easy to get) or if Mega Mewtwo Y is running Life Orb.
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Registeel
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Loses to Life Orb if it switches in on literally anything else, loses to Taunt + Secret Sword or Encore + Secret Sword on non-Life Orb variants.
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 195-231 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zygarde-C
It's still got Giratina's Fairy weakness, so it still loses to Fleur Cannon and can't switch in very well on LO Psycho Boost.
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 331-390 (52 - 61.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 300-355 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 411-484 (64.6 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 286-338 (44.9 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Dialga
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 198-233 (49 - 57.6%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga: 181-213 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Mega Audino
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 247-292 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 190-225 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Can't switch in on the main STAB, and can't do much back because it's forced to keep recovering.

NDM and Solgaleo lose to Moongeist, Fire coverage or Ground coverage, and struggle vs Sap variants. Won't bother providing calcs.

Yveltal
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 282-332 (61.9 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Loses to Fleur Cannon, even without Life Orb, and...
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 231-273 (50.7 - 60%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Loses to this after Life Orb. Can't switch in very well.

Unaware Aegislash is garbage and loses to like Fire/Ground/Ghost move MMY. Not even gonna bother calcing.

Celesteela is one of the best Unawares for beating MMY - If MMY doesn't have Moongeist or Fire-type coverage it just wins, but it loses to MMY when it has either of the two. Also Unaware Celes is lol

Tyranitar-Mega
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 84-99 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar-Mega: 317-374 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 390-463 (96.5 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Loses to LO Fleur Cannon and Sword, if it's not Lefties loses to V-Create on the switch as well. Can switch in on Psycho Boost but nothing else. Life Orb has a harder time dealing w megatar however.

MGyara loses to Fleur Cannon and Secret Sword on the switch, the calcs are 2HKOs from experience so I won't post em.

Cresselia
Honestly, Unaware Cresselia is probably the closest thing to a Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y answer, but it loses to Moongeist Beam sets and V-Create after Stealth Rock.
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 198-233 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ho-Oh
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 214-253 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Can't switch in on Psycho Boost and it loses 50% everytime Stealth Rock is up.

Mega Sableye
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 328-387 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
lol

Mega Steelix
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 149-177 (42 - 50%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Which doesn't seem bad, until...
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Steelix-Mega: 239-283 (67.5 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
You lose on the switch, even at a minroll w/ lefties.
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 260-307 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Megalix can try to switch in on Fleur Cannon, but it still loses to the same things that beat it - Only difference is Megalix actually gets a turn to do something.

Darmanitan-Zen
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Darmanitan-Z: 242-286 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Unaware Darmanitan Zen can't really stall out LO's recoil: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-875003005
It can't really switch in either - It loses eventually.

Meloetta
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meloetta: 242-285 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Doesn't win vs V-Create w/ Life Orb, but w/ Leftovers Meloetta beats it without Life Orb unless it gets crit.

The tldr of this is that there's a few checks that lose to less than other checks, w/ the most reliable checks being Darmanitan-Z, Meloetta, and Cresselia. Other than Cresselia, running an UR mon or a D rank mon to have close to reliable defensive counterplay against MMY isn't healthy. These Pokemon don't fit on every team, either, nor should they.

I can just see the criticism right now - "Almost all of your calcs have Life Orb" - but that's the thing. MMY won't take pity on you and decide not to use Life Orb for one game, you don't know if the MMY has a Life Orb or not until you've faced it. Life Orb Contrary is good because it gets so many of these amazing calcs, and it's what you should prepare for if you're trying to check Contrary MMY - You don't build off the best case scenario for you, you try to build off the worst case scenario for you.

"But you can just use Prankster!"

That's fine. If you get the switchin right, then Prankster DBond will beat Mega Mewtwo Y. But at what cost? Losing one of your Pokemon in order to be able to trade for taking Contra MMY down isn't healthy. You won't always have the luxury of having a matchup where you won't need your Prankster for anything else. What I'm trying to say is that Contrary MMY brings the threat level of a match far too high.

"But it loses to Imposter!"

This isn't necessarily an argument I agree with. At a high level, most teams with Contrary MMY will have an Imposterproof for it -- And sure, you can play mindgames with it in order to eventually beat that Imposterproof, but the player you're facing will definitely have an advantage if your way of answering Contrary MMY is Imposter.

"Just use Flash Fire Registeel or Flash Fire Celesteela like lol.."
252 SpA Life Orb Contrary Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 431-509 (108.2 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Contrary Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 326-385 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

"Use Priority! Use Prankster Topsy Turvy!"
This is probably the thing holding Contrary MMY back from a suspect, and I hate it. For one, Prankster Topsy Turvy isn't great. Not in this meta with setup Dark-types and Dazzling Shell Smash. However, it's hard for one to definitively say what the problem is - Smash, or Contrary? Or are they both problematic? Contrary has no reliable defensive counterplay, is the thing - Stuff like Unaware ZygC can answer Smash Ttar, Pranks can answer Bellyburden, etc... But there's no close to reliable Contrary MMY answer, other than a UR mon, Unaware Cresselia and Darmanitan-Zen. That's not great.

MMY also has the bulk to take priority, and it can customize its 4th move or item to beat prio. highlighter, Klang and I came up with Red Card Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y (primarily hl tho) to use in OMWC, but even though I didn't manage to show it in the game vs Flint, it's beaten priority and Imposter in other games (idt I have a replay tho I hardly save lol)

Now why isn't this a suspect preach on MMY instead? Well for starters, I think that Contrary is its only broken set, and so banning MMY would remove its Sheer Force set from the metagame. I don't find Sheer Force too difficult to beat, so it wouldn't make sense to remove something that isn't broken. For another, MMY, while by far the best Contrary user, isn't the only Contrary user. Stuff like Mega Mewtwo X, Mega Sceptile and Mega Rayquaza can run slightly less but still potent Contrary sets, and I think those are pretty difficult to handle as well.

This is also ignoring how I believe Contrary is a fairly unexplored concept in the meta - By this I mean all of its options haven't really been used yet. I've began to experiment with Destiny Bond Contrary, to beat Imposter or something else that might try to rk it. It's a bit of a surprise, not the best 4th move by any means but it's not bad. I think there's more to be discovered, but I don't think Contrary should get that opportunity because I already feel it's pretty broken.

In conclusion pls ban contra kthx

 

[cityscapes]

i have a couple issues with the above post.

first and foremost among them is the fact that you don't feature any teams with contrary on them (this is very important i think) or any actual games featuring it, and you don't really address its flaws like issues getting it started, 4mss, and the huge amounts of support it requires in order to function at all. this makes the post feel non specific since all you have is a bunch of calcs. i could post calcs of sf mmy vs fat mons and make almost the exact same arguments as you did ("you need either fc chans or shed to actually reliably handle this mon, although these options are viable they don't fit on every team, prank/regenvest/ph all die").

"But it loses to Imposter!"

This isn't necessarily an argument I agree with. At a high level, most teams with Contrary MMY will have an Imposterproof for it -- And sure, you can play mindgames with it in order to eventually beat that Imposterproof, but the player you're facing will definitely have an advantage if your way of answering Contrary MMY is Imposter.

i disagree with this. unless u want ur mmys walled by common mons or you're running something ridiculous like prank dbond, you'll need to run niche unaware users that are forced to recover anyway. the exception is pixie plate mmy + dark type, who is walled by ff steels, regenvest ogre, and stuff because it lacks life orb. additionally, mmy will need to find a second opportunity to come in after getting forced out by imposter, which can be hard especially when the opponent knows the set.

"Use Priority! Use Prankster Topsy Turvy!"
This is probably the thing holding Contrary MMY back from a suspect, and I hate it. For one, Prankster Topsy Turvy isn't great. Not in this meta with setup Dark-types and Dazzling Shell Smash.

i agree that topsy isn't always the best option, but glare and dbond are also fine ways to get around contrary. you can decide which one you want based on the mon/team. plus, you don't even need to give up haze for it (and giving it up is an option if you have like unaware zyg, as you stated).

either way, prank should be on every team because drum is still allowed for some reason. with multiple options that you can use to beat contrary, you really have no excuse to be losing to it with prank.

I don't find Sheer Force too difficult to beat, so it wouldn't make sense to remove something that isn't broken.

why is sf easier to beat than contrary? sure it has consistent counters but so does contrary depending on set

This is also ignoring how I believe Contrary is a fairly unexplored concept in the meta - By this I mean all of its options haven't really been used yet. I've began to experiment with Destiny Bond Contrary, to beat Imposter or something else that might try to rk it. It's a bit of a surprise, not the best 4th move by any means but it's not bad. I think there's more to be discovered, but I don't think Contrary should get that opportunity because I already feel it's pretty broken.

this is both subjective and irrelevant (if we discover some wild new innovation that makes contrary broken without a doubt, we can just ban it then).

MMY also has the bulk to take priority, and it can customize its 4th move or item to beat prio. highlighter, Klang and I came up with Red Card Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y (primarily hl tho) to use in OMWC, but even though I didn't manage to show it in the game vs Flint, it's beaten priority and Imposter in other games (idt I have a replay tho I hardly save lol)

how is this even supposed to beat priority/imposter tho?? you get 1 more kill max then they come back in and kill you

anyway here's why i don't think contrary deserves a ban rn:

first of all, from the mmy user's perspective, the strategy is super inconsistent. you need a solid imposter proofer. you need to somehow play in a way that gives mmy a chance to set up in the first place. you need to play super carefully around potential prank/imposter/fakespeed/other stuff in order for mmy to accomplish anything at all.

secondly, contrary doesn't feel like it "dominates the meta" in the same way as stuff like stakeout, pdon, and to a lesser extent sleep did. it's just another sweeper that can be prepped for like mg diancie, drummers, and offensive ph. and in ompl/omwc, contrary was both inconsistent and rarely used.

would appreciate good arguments to convince me otherwise mayb

 

[Ren]

i have a couple issues with the above post.

first and foremost among them is the fact that you don't feature any teams with contrary on them (this is very important i think)

That's because I don't really feel the need to share teams nor do I want too many out in the public

or any actual games featuring it

Mentioned that it was because I don't save, but there's definitely games if you look. Maybe someone else could compile

, and you don't really address its flaws like issues getting it started

You'll have to tell me how this is a flaw. You come in on a Pokemon you revenge and then there's the mindgame of if it'll click a boosting move or if it'll click a coverage move that doesn't boost, and that's assuming the MMY set in question doesn't have a coverage move that boosts on the opp. Stuff like Yvel doesn't get this mindgame, neither does stuff like MDiancie MGar etc etc

, 4mss

This is fair, but I don't think that it's a pressing issue. You only really need Secret Sword and any 4th move to beat the majority of the metagame.

, and the huge amounts of support it requires in order to function at all.

What support is required? I'm kind of curious what you're referring to because I've found Contrary to work despite the only support it has being an Imposterproofer (and ig Imposter).

this makes the post feel non specific since all you have is a bunch of calcs. i could post calcs of sf mmy vs fat mons and make almost the exact same arguments as you did ("you need either fc chans or shed to actually reliably handle this mon, although these options are viable they don't fit on every team, prank/regenvest/ph all die").

I made more arguments than these - These checks still lose to Moongeist, LO or Epower and also, FC Chans is a pretty consistent SF MMY check and you also don't need to keep Imposter as healthy as you do vs Contrary.

i disagree with this. unless u want ur mmys walled by common mons or you're running something ridiculous like prank dbond, you'll need to run niche unaware users that are forced to recover anyway.

I don't really feel this is true. Stuff like Shedinja, your own Imposter (to a point) or Unaware Chansey which are hardly common but still ok Pokemon.

the exception is pixie plate mmy + dark type, who is walled by ff steels, regenvest ogre, and stuff because it lacks life orb.

I don't disagree with this.

additionally, mmy will need to find a second opportunity to come in after getting forced out by imposter, which can be hard especially when the opponent knows the set.

I don't really feel this is difficult - For one, Mega Mewtwo Y has the bulk and typing to fairly consistently come in with slow pivots. It's only really difficult when your opponent tries to prevent sending in a Pokemon that loses to it in favor of a Pokemon Mega Mewtwo Y can't set up on, but even then Mega Mewtwo Y is already constraining your opponent's options.

i agree that topsy isn't always the best option, but glare and dbond are also fine ways to get around contrary. you can decide which one you want based on the mon/team. plus, you don't even need to give up haze for it (and giving it up is an option if you have like unaware zyg, as you stated).

This is fair, I guess? But you won't always have the luxury of being able to play without your Prankster, as I previously mentioned - While they're some of the best walls in the meta, they're also some of the easiest to pressure. With Contrary, you'll almost definitely need your Prankster alive. So what happens when that's also your check to, say, Regigigas or something? If it dbonds, there's an issue, and if you glare then you still have to decide what to sack to the +2 MMY.

either way, prank should be on every team because drum is still allowed for some reason. with multiple options that you can use to beat contrary, you really have no excuse to be losing to it with prank.

I don't really feel Prankster classifies as multiple options - There are problems with the options you mentioned as I stated above.

why is sf easier to beat than contrary? sure it has consistent counters but so does contrary depending on set

FC Chans will wall every Sheer Force set reliably (aside from Focus Blast, which doesn't get enough usage to warrant a mention). Contrary doesn't have this benefit. In addition, as I mentioned earlier Imposter must be healthier to handle Contrary as opposed to Sheer Force. It's a lot easier to pressure Imposter w/ your Contrary mon as well.

this is both subjective and irrelevant (if we discover some wild new innovation that makes contrary broken without a doubt, we can just ban it then).

I think it's pretty relevant when you consider how difficult Contrary is to play around already.

how is this even supposed to beat priority/imposter tho?? you get 1 more kill max then they come back in and kill you

You fuck up their momentum, is how it works. If Imposter goes first at +2, then they get Red Carded, you claim another kill which they have 0 control over, and then Imposter comes back. If Imposter goes second at +2, you've chipped Imposter and they randomly have a Pokemon come in. After your free kill, Imposter needs a speed tie to win, assuming you don't hard into your Imposter proofer.
Same premise applies to priority.

anyway here's why i don't think contrary deserves a ban rn:

first of all, from the mmy user's perspective, the strategy is super inconsistent. you need a solid imposter proofer.

This is hardly an issue, you should have an Imposterproofer in BH, broken set or not.

you need to somehow play in a way that gives mmy a chance to set up in the first place.

This isn't very difficult, as it can revenge an impressive amount of the metagame.

you need to play super carefully around potential prank/imposter/fakespeed/other stuff in order for mmy to accomplish anything at all.

Again, not very difficult. With King's Shield or Strength Sap, Fakespeed has trouble consistently revenging, and MMY needs decent chip to get OHKOed by FakeSpeed anyways. Prankster's fair, but that's assuming you're in a position to Dbond or you have a switchin to the +2 MMY you get after Glaring. You can't always afford this.

secondly, contrary doesn't feel like it "dominates the meta" in the same way as stuff like stakeout, pdon, and to a lesser extent sleep did.

I didn't find sleep meta defining at all, but also this shouldn't necessarily be an argument. Just because other things were more broken than it doesn't mean that it's not broken, it just means it's less broken than all those threats.

it's just another sweeper that can be prepped for like mg diancie, drummers, and offensive ph.[/hide]
I'm really interested to know how you prepare for it other than Prank DBond and Prank Glare, which have had problems I've addressed.

and in ompl/omwc, contrary was both inconsistent and rarely used.[/hide]
You took issue with me not posting replays, so I'd appreciate a replay pointing me to it being inconsistent. Usage shouldn't really be an argument to ban something broken, either. It's not like it gets 0 usage, it's at around 15% usage on MMY iirc. Hardly rarely used.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Champion Leon]

No to suspect.

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 181-213 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

I guess without Earth Power or V-Create you can count a healthy Muk-Alola as well.

252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Muk-Alola: 269-317 (64.9 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

One thing you didn’t mention was Strength Sap. Contrary users actually enable Strength Sap to stall out hits, and recover full HP at that, so some of those Pokémon you mentioned could use Strength Sap.

“Hello? Hello? Can you hear me?” Adele

You also didn’t mention Unaware users using Spectral Thief (especially for V-Create to steal Defensive boosts), Core Enforcer, Entrainment (on Flash Fire Pokemon), Knock Off, and even U-Turn.

I know when I brought up Meloetta, from obscurity, my argument included how after Meloetta takes a V-Create, Spectral Thief lets it outspeed MMY next turn, and that means it can Heal or Baton Pass. With added Defenses, healing, and outspeeding MMY, it can 100% Check (not Counter) MMY on all sets. Kyogre-Primal can do the same since they share 90 Base Speed.

Now before you say “But MMY won’t use V-Create vs Kyogre-Primal!” True, you just bait it with a Steel Type, have it V-Create on the switch, and then Spectral Thief next turn to suddenly have the same advantages as Meloetta.

Moves matter just as much as the ability for Checks/Counters... Spectral Thief can be used with most Unaware Pokemon, afterall.

As for the others:

Yes, if it has a Z-move, Knock Off doesn’t have much use, but it does work well vs Life Orb for both the damage reduction next turn and for the damage it deals in hitting MMY.

Core Enforcer and Entrainment diminish MMY’s longevity in battle, and one even bypasses Taunt :).

If MMY lacks V-Create, then U-Turn off faster Pheromosa, Beedrill-Mega, etc. can threaten MMY as Offensive Checks. Triage Heracross-Mega, and Rayquaza-Mega can deal with MMY as well. Scarf Adaptability Gengar-Mega, and Focus Sashers can also pose a threat.

Besides Moongeist Beam, we can ensure survival against MMY with Lugia:

252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 170-201 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lugia: 146-172 (35 - 41.3%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, before anyone ever again accuses me of Cherry Picking with SR included in my calculations when I post an offensive moveset, please remember that the MMY post GL Volkner made includes it.

Also since it’s only fair to include Calcs without SR, the Calcs I made in this post do not factor it in, as if you are just as smart as your Contrary MMY foe, you can just as easily prevent or remove SR (Magic Bounce, Defog, Rapid Spin, Taunt), as they can set it up. Especially in a rematch where you know MMY’s specific moveset and which Pokémon pack Stealth Rock.

Plus what about your hazards? A Stealth Rock for MMY to switch into, plus it taking Life Orb Damage per turn it Attacks? All Lugia has to do is Recover to ensure that MMY inevitably KOs itself. No Destiny Bond needed or weird workarounds needed.

Throw in Spectral Thief, Knock Off, Nuzzle, etc. that can hurt and diminish the effectiveness as MMY tries to do anything including Taunt, and you don’t have a sitting duck either.

I understand we just had a suspect test on Sleep Clause, but I feel the need to address something I've never understood why it was allowed before Gen 8 arrives.

Contrary.

This is a fairly uncontroversial topic, most people I've seen discuss it have always agreed that it's somewhere on the spectrum from borderline to the most ridiculous thing in the meta. Personally, I'm on the latter extreme.

To start, let's talk about the most relevant Contrary user.

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Fairium Z / Fightinium Z / Groundium Z
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost
- Fleur Cannon
- V-Create / Overheat / Earth Power / Secret Sword / Moongeist Beam
- Taunt / Encore / Strength Sap / King's Shield

On paper, this looks fairly easy to answer, right? ...Well, actually, it doesn't but for the purposes of this argument let's assume that people believe Unaware answers Contrary. Now let's see why that's not valid.

I'm going to be providing a comprehensive list of everything I've ever seen run Unaware in this metagame. This is by no means a list of good Unawares, but rather trying to prove that Unaware isn't a good answer to Contrary regardless of which Pokemon it's on. You will see some garbage Pokemon in this list, and I'm just pointing that out right now. Again, the purpose of this set of calcs is to hopefully get rid of the notion that Unaware was ever a reliable answer to Contrary.

Unaware calcs

Chansey
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 207-243 (29.4 - 34.5%) -- 6% chance to 3HKO

This looks like it's fine, right? Until...

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 434-512 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 376-442 (53.4 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are both fairly common moves on Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y - While you wall the 2 main moves that this set "needs", you lose to 2 common coverage options. This is also ignoring how the 4th move's two first options, Taunt and Encore, also give Unaware a hard time, because it means you can lock them into Metal Burst and chip them into Sword range after they switch in, or it means you can lock them into recovery and eventually beat them with one of the two common coverage options mentioned.

Unaware Chansey answers Mega Mewtwo Y sets that are using Overheat, Moongeist Beam or Earth Power in the 3rd slot while also running Strength Sap and King's Shield in the fourth slot - But really, how good are those Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y sets? This is also ignoring how easy it is to passively chip Unaware Chansey, or just Pursuit it - Without Fur Coat, it's not too bulky.

Giratina
I don't even need to calc, it gets 2HKOed by Fleur on the switchin and loses to Moongeist.

Kyogre-Primal
While this one is one of the best Contrary answers on paper, it can't switch in on Mega Mewtwo Y's Psycho Boost if Stealth Rock is up, if it's taken equivalent chip (pretty easy to get) or if Mega Mewtwo Y is running Life Orb.
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Registeel
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Loses to Life Orb if it switches in on literally anything else, loses to Taunt + Secret Sword or Encore + Secret Sword on non-Life Orb variants.
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 195-231 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zygarde-C
It's still got Giratina's Fairy weakness, so it still loses to Fleur Cannon and can't switch in very well on LO Psycho Boost.
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 331-390 (52 - 61.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 300-355 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 411-484 (64.6 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 286-338 (44.9 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Dialga
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 198-233 (49 - 57.6%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga: 181-213 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Mega Audino
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 247-292 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 190-225 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Can't switch in on the main STAB, and can't do much back because it's forced to keep recovering.

NDM and Solgaleo lose to Moongeist, Fire coverage or Ground coverage, and struggle vs Sap variants. Won't bother providing calcs.

Yveltal
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 282-332 (61.9 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Loses to Fleur Cannon, even without Life Orb, and...
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 231-273 (50.7 - 60%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Loses to this after Life Orb. Can't switch in very well.

Unaware Aegislash is garbage and loses to like Fire/Ground/Ghost move MMY. Not even gonna bother calcing.

Celesteela is one of the best Unawares for beating MMY - If MMY doesn't have Moongeist or Fire-type coverage it just wins, but it loses to MMY when it has either of the two. Also Unaware Celes is lol

Tyranitar-Mega
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 84-99 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar-Mega: 317-374 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 390-463 (96.5 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Loses to LO Fleur Cannon and Sword, if it's not Lefties loses to V-Create on the switch as well. Can switch in on Psycho Boost but nothing else. Life Orb has a harder time dealing w megatar however.

MGyara loses to Fleur Cannon and Secret Sword on the switch, the calcs are 2HKOs from experience so I won't post em.

Cresselia
Honestly, Unaware Cresselia is probably the closest thing to a Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y answer, but it loses to Moongeist Beam sets and V-Create after Stealth Rock.
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 198-233 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ho-Oh
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 214-253 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Can't switch in on Psycho Boost and it loses 50% everytime Stealth Rock is up.

Mega Sableye
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 328-387 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
lol

Mega Steelix
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 149-177 (42 - 50%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Which doesn't seem bad, until...
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Steelix-Mega: 239-283 (67.5 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
You lose on the switch, even at a minroll w/ lefties.
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 260-307 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Megalix can try to switch in on Fleur Cannon, but it still loses to the same things that beat it - Only difference is Megalix actually gets a turn to do something.

Darmanitan-Zen
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Darmanitan-Z: 242-286 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Unaware Darmanitan Zen can't really stall out LO's recoil: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-875003005
It can't really switch in either - It loses eventually.

Meloetta
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meloetta: 242-285 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Doesn't win vs V-Create w/ Life Orb, but w/ Leftovers Meloetta beats it without Life Orb unless it gets crit.

The tldr of this is that there's a few checks that lose to less than other checks, w/ the most reliable checks being Darmanitan-Z, Meloetta, and Cresselia. Other than Cresselia, running an UR mon or a D rank mon to have close to reliable defensive counterplay against MMY isn't healthy. These Pokemon don't fit on every team, either, nor should they.

I can just see the criticism right now - "Almost all of your calcs have Life Orb" - but that's the thing. MMY won't take pity on you and decide not to use Life Orb for one game, you don't know if the MMY has a Life Orb or not until you've faced it. Life Orb Contrary is good because it gets so many of these amazing calcs, and it's what you should prepare for if you're trying to check Contrary MMY - You don't build off the best case scenario for you, you try to build off the worst case scenario for you.

"But you can just use Prankster!"

That's fine. If you get the switchin right, then Prankster DBond will beat Mega Mewtwo Y. But at what cost? Losing one of your Pokemon in order to be able to trade for taking Contra MMY down isn't healthy. You won't always have the luxury of having a matchup where you won't need your Prankster for anything else. What I'm trying to say is that Contrary MMY brings the threat level of a match far too high.

"But it loses to Imposter!"

This isn't necessarily an argument I agree with. At a high level, most teams with Contrary MMY will have an Imposterproof for it -- And sure, you can play mindgames with it in order to eventually beat that Imposterproof, but the player you're facing will definitely have an advantage if your way of answering Contrary MMY is Imposter.

"Just use Flash Fire Registeel or Flash Fire Celesteela like lol.."
252 SpA Life Orb Contrary Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 431-509 (108.2 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Contrary Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 326-385 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

"Use Priority! Use Prankster Topsy Turvy!"
This is probably the thing holding Contrary MMY back from a suspect, and I hate it. For one, Prankster Topsy Turvy isn't great. Not in this meta with setup Dark-types and Dazzling Shell Smash. However, it's hard for one to definitively say what the problem is - Smash, or Contrary? Or are they both problematic? Contrary has no reliable defensive counterplay, is the thing - Stuff like Unaware ZygC can answer Smash Ttar, Pranks can answer Bellyburden, etc... But there's no close to reliable Contrary MMY answer, other than a UR mon, Unaware Cresselia and Darmanitan-Zen. That's not great.

MMY also has the bulk to take priority, and it can customize its 4th move or item to beat prio. highlighter, Klang and I came up with Red Card Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y (primarily hl tho) to use in OMWC, but even though I didn't manage to show it in the game vs Flint, it's beaten priority and Imposter in other games (idt I have a replay tho I hardly save lol)

Now why isn't this a suspect preach on MMY instead? Well for starters, I think that Contrary is its only broken set, and so banning MMY would remove its Sheer Force set from the metagame. I don't find Sheer Force too difficult to beat, so it wouldn't make sense to remove something that isn't broken. For another, MMY, while by far the best Contrary user, isn't the only Contrary user. Stuff like Mega Mewtwo X, Mega Sceptile and Mega Rayquaza can run slightly less but still potent Contrary sets, and I think those are pretty difficult to handle as well.

This is also ignoring how I believe Contrary is a fairly unexplored concept in the meta - By this I mean all of its options haven't really been used yet. I've began to experiment with Destiny Bond Contrary, to beat Imposter or something else that might try to rk it. It's a bit of a surprise, not the best 4th move by any means but it's not bad. I think there's more to be discovered, but I don't think Contrary should get that opportunity because I already feel it's pretty broken.

In conclusion pls ban contra kthx

Overall, if MMY is broken with Contrary, why don’t we see it everywhere like we used to see with Primal Groudon?

Something broken wouldn’t be rare, and I know MMY has many sets, but something so good that could be an example to ban an ability seems rather uncommon, to be honest. Some teams don’t even run MMY at all.

Lastly, Necrozma-Ultimate is another good Contrary user to add to your post. It has nearly as much speed as MMX, and can better mix sweep, which helps it hit 2HKO territory with V-Create on things like Lugia, etc.

Lastly, what about recovery options on Unaware (Protect moves + Leftovers healing).

Also, what about Prankster Encore? Send in a Steel Type like Registeel who takes a Psycho Boost and Encore it. No Earth Power, Overheat, or V-Create. Then you can send in a Dark-Type like Tyranitar-Mega, which might even pack Pursuit. Send in a Prankster Encore Zygarde-Complete vs a V-Create or Overheat, etc.

Also, without Life Orb, your calculations say that Zygarde-Complete can tank 2 Fleur Cannon 99.4% the time. So that to me counts as a Counter.-

 

[Funbot28]

Im glad a potential suspect on Contrary was brought up as I do feel that it is something at least worth looking into given the state of the current metagame post sleep nerf.

To me currently, Contrary stands as one of the most deadliest abilities that warps teambuilding right alongside Imposter, Sturdinja, and NormaGar. Dealing with Contrary setup sweepers is a whole different mindset when building to counteract your run of the mill setup sweeper (ie: ones that actually use status moves to boost their stats) as these mons can simultaneously output damage and perform their role as a sweeper which can be frustrating to counteract given how immediate the "snowball" effect commences. When you think of your general setup checks, first things that should come to mind are of course Prankster Haze / Destiny Bond, Spectral Theif, Topsy-Turvy, and Unaware, however Contrary can generally bypass all these tools that typically would force out an opposing setup sweeper (sans Prankster Dbond) as spamming their coverage move which provides boosts comes with little to no drawback and the Contrary sweeper can easily be put back into a position to sweep once more even if there stats are neutralized / stolen / or reversed. This is why most of these means of checking Contrary are rather ineffective at times as they only provide a temporary emergency stop to a potential opposing sweep as these type of sweepers do not need to waste the time using setup moves compared to other general setup sweepers. Even abilities like Unaware can be detrimental given how Contrary sweepers can easily break through the majority of these type of walls spamming high BP moves, forcing the recovery the majority of the time which can easily be capitalized on.

GL Volkner already brought up the point on Imposter which I really tend to agree with. The thing with Improofing Contrary sweepers is that it is probably the most specific type of improof in building, where specific checks need to be allocated to your team in order to prevent the Imposter Contrary sweep. While this might seem as a point favouring to keep Contrary, it also means that counterplay to Contrary can also be extremely hard to fit onto opposing teams, where the most common form seen nowadays is just utilizing Scarf Imposter as an emergency check (where the use of Substitute on Contrary mons comes in with great value specifically for that), as I had mentioned previously that typical means in checking setup sweepers generally don't apply to Contrary sweepers unless it is by the means of Prankster Destiny Bond to put it bluntly. As Volk mentioned, other means of defensively countering Contrary is almost impossible to come by given the sheer strength of the Sweepers right of the bat, meaning no turns need to be wasted using setup moves which forces the opponent into a reactionary state of play which can be extremely hard to properly counteract.

Two replays I would like to bring up to support Contrary's presence in a top tier level of play:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-873838059
While Mamp does get some luck with the Sucker Punch miss and some paras, the fact that Contrary can punish the use of common moves such as Defog in order to capitalize on a sweep which realistically could have only been stopped by a Imposter 50/50 speed tie comes to prove the impact it has once the Contrary user is given the slightest window to commence a sweep.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-837538653Contrary MMY opening up the opposing team for the rest of its partnering wallbreakers to sweep (it could have realistically done it on its own if it would have won the speed tie vs Imposter), but I still feels this showcases how it can feel impossible at times to safely come in against an Contrary mon without resorting to hard checks / counters.

To conclude, while Contrary may be a presence that we have come to be familiar with ever since it was introduced in Gen V, I feel that has kinda warped the metagame ever so in its favor to frightening degrees with the presence of powerful abusers such as MMY and Mega Ray especially. While one may argue the aforementioned two threats to be the main issue, I still feel that in this specific case it is the ability that breaks the user and not vice-versa, I think a Contrary suspect can and should be considered in the near future.

 

[cityscapes]

You'll have to tell me how this is a flaw. You come in on a Pokemon you revenge and then there's the mindgame of if it'll click a boosting move or if it'll click a coverage move that doesn't boost, and that's assuming the MMY set in question doesn't have a coverage move that boosts on the opp. Stuff like Yvel doesn't get this mindgame, neither does stuff like MDiancie MGar etc etc

What support is required? I'm kind of curious what you're referring to because I've found Contrary to work despite the only support it has being an Imposterproofer (and ig Imposter).

by this i was referring to mmy having trouble ohkoing pretty much all defensive mons, so if you don't give it an opportunity to come in using team support (you used the term "revenge kill" so id assume mmy comes in after another mon dies which seems pretty wack to me), it fails to sweep. if mmy misses the kill and gets uturned on vs a decent balance team, it loses to imposter or priority and gets 0 kills. if mmy misses the kill and gets hit with spectral or core, it gets 1 kill before getting forced out by the next mon, and it's significantly chipped.

I don't really feel this is true. Stuff like Shedinja, your own Imposter (to a point) or Unaware Chansey which are hardly common but still ok Pokemon.

shed is pretty common, you can run mold breaker pursuit elsewhere on the team which constitutes the team support i was talking about earlier (you sacrifice an item and move slot, and shed has the room to double out). unaware chans is fine but makes the team overall more ate weak since you have 2 mons that hate it, also means that you cant run secret sword on mmy. imposter barely checks lol

I don't really feel Prankster classifies as multiple options - There are problems with the options you mentioned as I stated above.

i dont mean prank is itself multiple options, i mean there are different moves you can run on prank that all handle contrary. glare is good when you have slow breakers and stuff like eviolite imposter on the team so paralyzing mmy is basically the same as killing it. topsy is good on a team that would otherwise struggle vs contrary mmy, stuff that can take psycho boosts like audino, cress, and others do well with it. dbond is good on a team with multiple checks like priority, scarf imposter, some regenvest users, and unaware. because of this, i'd say that different macro team archetypes can still do equally well vs contrary and dont lose on matchup.

I think [considering future contrary techs] is pretty relevant when you consider how difficult Contrary is to play around already.

why should we consider sets that haven't even been thought of or used when judging whether something is broken? we don't know how good these new moves are gonna be. for all we know people have already made everything that contrary can do well.

If Imposter goes first at +2, then they get Red Carded, you claim another kill which they have 0 control over, and then Imposter comes back. If Imposter goes second at +2, you've chipped Imposter and they randomly have a Pokemon come in. After your free kill, Imposter needs a speed tie to win, assuming you don't hard into your Imposter proofer.

+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 267-315 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
dont you like die to this unless you have the absolute best case scenario

This is hardly an issue, you should have an Imposterproofer in BH, broken set or not.

yeah, but imposter proofers are a lot more limited for contrary, especially if you're using specific "hard to deal with" moves like moongeist, secret sword, encore, and sleep. when i used magma storm encore sceptile, i never felt like it was actually broken because of how i needed unaware normalium z ho-oh to even use it in the first place.

Again, not very difficult. With King's Shield or Strength Sap, Fakespeed has trouble consistently revenging, and MMY needs decent chip to get OHKOed by FakeSpeed anyways.

252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 357-421 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

ks makes sense (altho it makes mmy easier to deal with in general) but how is sap helping you? either u kill him or he kills u.

i dont think sap mmy is good because in practice you never get opportunities to sap. even if you successfully force a mon out into another mon and sap, your attack has to ohko the other mon, otherwise they hit you and you die to fakespeed. sometimes they have chans too and sap gives 0 which is funny

The thing with Improofing Contrary sweepers is that it is probably the most specific type of improof in building, where specific checks need to be allocated to your team in order to prevent the Imposter Contrary sweep. While this might seem as a point favouring to keep Contrary, it also means that counterplay to Contrary can also be extremely hard to fit onto opposing teams, where the most common form seen nowadays is just utilizing Scarf Imposter as an emergency check (where the use of Substitute on Contrary mons comes in with great value specifically for that)

this isn't specfic to contrary though. stuff like mg diancie, cb tc mmx, specs ultra necrozma, sf mmy, specs adapt gar, and others are all really hard to answer, and imposter proof. sub contrary isnt really a thing for the same reasons as sap (plus spectral/core still hit you), and there are a lot more common forms of counterplay than scarf imposter.

While Mamp does get some luck with the Sucker Punch miss and some paras, the fact that Contrary can punish the use of common moves such as Defog in order to capitalize on a sweep which realistically could have only been stopped by a Imposter 50/50 speed tie comes to prove the impact it has once the Contrary user is given the slightest window to commence a sweep.

i don't think jrdn utilized all the options he had available to him in this game. for example, something he could have done was go to imposter on mmx as it initially came in; he already had a solid diancie switchin in ho-oh and looking at the team, it was very unlikely that it was mg diancie, so he didn't need hp on imposter. another option he had was going ho-oh on the fleur cannon to keep gira alive.

that being said, the team also looked extremely weak to contrary. it was no spectral ho oh, no dbond/glare/topsy gira (assuming prank bc otherwise the squad loses to lategame drum), and overall the team didn't have good ways of pressuring opposing squads in general, even if it was specs ray. the team was poorly built imo

Contrary MMY opening up the opposing team for the rest of its partnering wallbreakers to sweep (it could have realistically done it on its own if it would have won the speed tie vs Imposter), but I still feels this showcases how it can feel impossible at times to safely come in against an Contrary mon without resorting to hard checks / counters.

my mans greenheroes had a hard check in solgaleo, he made a mistake by not going to that every time. he didn't even need it to check diancie, celesteela handled that just fine and solgaleo wasn't a safe switchin anyway so he didn't lose anything by going solgaleo on mmy. immediate hard switch to audino to scout coverage and spam sap was also an option. now that i think about it audino could've just spammed sap too and pp stalled psycho boost (he messed up by clicking spite).