BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

first off, deo a is a pretty irrelevant and bad mon, like coil aero (at least some of that usage was pressure shenanigans lol) so i don't think it should be brought up here.
I never said they weren't bad or irrelevant. But you can't deny that most mons in this metagame have at least one form of setup set, and usage stats show that setup is getting to be increasingly prevalent. The only Pokemon which don't run setup overwhelmingly is Mega Mewtwo Y because Sheer Force is astrofuckingnomically powerful to the point of where it already 2HKOes pretty much anything it wants to and Pokemon like Mega Diancie who run -ate abilities.
no they don't, i've never heard anyone say this. yeah, setup is strong on hyper offense. it's strong on certain balance builds that use a breaker and a sweeper with the defensive core (like that one sample with cb kyub + ph xern + def core). but it isn't good on every type of balance, and its usefulness definitely fades out when you move towards hard stall. checks to setup, on the other hand, are necessary on every team, which i think would make a better argument.
I already made the argument that checks to setup are necessary. Look at how used abilities like Prankster and Unaware are. Every single relevant wall has Prankster or Unaware as its' most used ability. Is that not a problem here?
yeah, sleep makes setup better. but doesn't this mean that setup would be easy to deal with if we restricted or banned sleep? you say that setup can use sleep to bypass potential checks, and by this logic it looks like sleep is the real issue here, because it makes setup unmanageable.
People were already asking for certain setup to get banned before this argument even started. My argument is the inverse of yours. Would Sleep still be overpowered without stuff like Contrary or Shell Smash? Would Sleep be unmanageable without setup? That's something I want an answer to.

another thing i want to say is that sleep isn't necessarily manageable even without setup. the most prominent examples of this are the fast ph users, mmx and phero (and zeraora if u want).
But are these as big of a problem as you claim them to be? I guess they can be frustrating to face. But whenever I've faced or used fast PH users with Spore in specific, I never found them to be particularly overpowered by any means. I can't really say the same with Pokemon that use Spore then Smash the following turn or Contrary users.

I still don't see an issue in trying a Sleep Clause even if we eventually need to do a hard Sleep ban down the line. Sleep isn't a big enough issue that it needs immediate attention and it probably never will be. It's not that I don't support a hard Sleep ban, but I disagree with that being the first action we take.
 
When you attempt to divert community discussion when it's right on the verge of a suspect you actually limit the communities effectiveness. Several members wanting one ban and another group wanting another can make it look like there's not enough support for a suspect on either, when in reality almost everyone involved wants both things dealt with, the disagreement is just about the order in which they are dealt with.
I know I want to ban shell smash every bit as much as sleep (if you see my original post that started this discussion i talked about sleep and dazzling/smash) but seeing as there's been 2 full pages of discussion about sleep recently (which is more than I can remember for any suspect that I've seen) I think that waiting until the sleep suspect is finished is the obvious course of action. If it's really true that "it's not that I don't support a hard sleep ban" then I hope you realize this.
 
  1. implement a sleep clause. I personally think this would be the preferred outcome to keep the competitive usage of sleep, but it may be too drastic of a step
  2. ban specific sleep moves. I don't believe in banning sleep in its entirety. I actually do agree with Shed that we do not need to be tied to the way other tiers usually solve this by having a sleep clause. If there is interest in suspecting individual moves one by one after seeing how they do then I think we should facilitate that, just as it's done in 1v1
  3. there are enough tools available to handle sleep; no further action is needed
Thoughts:
1) I like this idea. Even if some of the competitiveness issues around sleep still remain I think this would make the strategy much less overbearing and give much more room for counterplay. You can still bring things that counter sleep (PH etc) that are aimed at checking the main sleep abusers, whatever they might be in this hypothetical meta, but if the opponent has some sleep user that you haven't got a sleep immune check to you can try to lure their sleep move on something else or try your luck. Sure this is still going to be deadly if used well but I don't see how this is too much more than say luring a wall with a Z-move and/or coverage and other similar strategies. Best case scenario you give up a moveslot to disable a mon of your choice with the potential of it being okay later if they play right and worse case you give up a moveslot for some pp to burn.

2) idk I feel the problem with this is either you ban so much it might as well be a sleep ban or it doesn't really address any of the points people have been making, most people don't seem to be saying the problem is that sleep is too reliable it seems to be p much the opposite. Maybe if we ban all sleep except dark void at least you know it's coming lol

3) maybe, if we have a poll we'll see what people think. There certainly are a myriad of ways to deal with sleep, with things like PH being exceptional even when the opponent has no sleep and misty surge, magic bounce, comatose all being useful for other things but the problem is you can only have so many of these on a team and the right sleep abuser might just ohko all you sleep checks or w/e (like hypothetically they have spore mdiancie and ohko your bounce aegi, PH zyg and magic guard ho-oh then sleep hax you into the abyss, but maybe this is just poor teambuilding not having decent answers)
 
I believe that implementing a sleep clause won't really help matters much at the high end. Due to the large amount of role compression on bh teams, having one mon out of commission for the battle is extremely crippling. You are basically exchanging the effectiveness of a full Pokemon for one move on the opposing Pokemon. Sleep Clause will help against teams with multiple sleep-abusing mons such as PH Regigigas + Xerneas. Because of the ability of any Pokemon to run any move, any Pokemon can run a Sleep move, so you don't even know if you will need that wall that they just slept.

But the clause won't really help against teams that run only one sleep abuser, and there are plenty of those floating around. A replay, hot off the press as of 10 minutes of this post going up, demonstrates the point.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-844497723

A sleep clause would not have made this replay any better. Imagine if there was a Sleep Clause for the duration of this paragraph. it would have prevented the opponent from sleeping Giratina, but that's not a Xern counter anyway, and I just wanted to haze the Quiver Dance boost with it. The real problem is Lovely Kiss, which is a very low risk, high reward move and doesn't award skill at all. If the LK user is a Poison-type or is already statused, you can click it mindlessly against anything that isn't already statused. At worst nothing happens (they switch out to a sleep absorber or it gets magic bounced), because your opponent can't really risk having a mon put to sleep, unless their matchup advantage is overwhelming and they can just fodder off something that's useless. At best, you keep something out of commission for three turns. Really nothing can go wrong for you, because your opponent, except for in a desperate situation, won't count on the move missing.

"But you just had a really bad matchup against PH Xerneas," a bunch of people will tell me. It's true that I don't have the hardest wall to PH Xerneas, which is probably PH Ho-Oh, or Magic Bounce Kyogre. The fact that Lovely Kiss can limit a Pokemon that would have 4 or 5 defensive walls (we include things like FF Mega Venusaur, FF Ferrothorn, Primsea Celesteela with Goggles) to 2 uncommon sets, shows that it's Lovely Kiss that is causing a lot of these problems.

In addition, the main ways that players deal with sleep these days is to prevent it from happening to some of their Pokemon. This wouldn't change if sleep clause were implemented, and it wouldn't prevent walls that weren't already immunized from being slept and put out of commission. (On a side note, I don't know if Magic Bounced sleep counts as self-inflicted or not, but that might have to be taken into account because if you can only bounce back sleep against one Pokemon on the enemy team, then Sleep spam might still be an okay strategy.)

It's been canvased so many times, but the page changed and so it's already buried so I'll write it again. Why not spore? There is far more viable counterplay to spore, including Safety Goggles and Grass-types, to stop it, and its 100% accuracy makes games cleaner because people don't have to try to go for Lovely Kiss misses in a last ditch attempt to turn a game around. But some people say, you can knock off Safety Goggles. But the fact that you have to Knock Off the goggles means that you lose a turn, which can be costly. If you are losing to Regigigas because your Safety Goggles got knocked off, then that's a fault in your team, and you need to accept that. None of my teams lose to PH Regigigas; no one else's need to either.

TLDR: By banning lovely kiss, the next bess sleep move is Hypnosis, which has 60% accuracy. You are basically flipping a coin in order to avoid Grass-types and Goggles, which seems fair enough to me. If people aren't willing to run Focus Blast, which has 70 accuracy, they probably won't want to risk running Hypnosis. And if it turns out that they do, we can ban it too. But we really don't need to ban Spore. And a Sleep Clause will probably be next to useless, because you really need every Pokemon on your team awake to put up a hard fight of it.
 
Hello all, I'd like to just take a moment to look at some replays that I thought were relevant to sleep. I did my best to make sure that every replay was between two competent players.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-823516722


Yeeter Griffin in this battle has 2 goggles and a PH mon, yet he still lost because of some crucial sleep turns on kyogre, this affected his ability to wall kartana later down the line.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-609112760


This game was played against free my man tele who is a very strong player (has an account with 96.7% gxe which is the highest I've seen since gen 6). I know psysurge is banned now but if the mmy was tinted specs the game would have been played exactly the same. Tele lost to a 3 turn sleep on his mewtwo which allowed sceptile and later gengar to set up on a mon they had no right setting up on. Another very interesting thing I take from this battle is flowre’s rank at the end. At the end of this battle he was 1760. I find this interesting because he was completely new to the tier and within a few weeks had hit 1700 using a team that had 5 separate mons use spore. The fact that his rank is so high is an indicator of the many battles I am not showing you that yielded similar results. The fact that he was able to obtain said rank with little experience in the tier is an indication of the lack of skill involved with spore and also shows it's consistency at winning battles.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-604221032


Another interesting battle, this time vs deez nuts junior (he has hit 1900 elo and 94% gxe). notice that deez nuts had 3 sleep counters on his team in the form of goggles, PH, and magic bounce. The goggles got knocked off regi and he lost due to crucial sleep turns allowing sceptile to kill 3 mons when it should have died to destiny bond. The important thing to note was 0 of the sleep “checks” could actually check sceptile or hoopa. this is because mons who use sleep don't just run 1 move, they run 3 more which can kill your sleep checks. No mon is immune to the myriad of pokemon who use sleep. Half the tier loses to vcreate spore boomburst on ates while Adapt/mold gengar can KO xern and tina. While mewtwo can kill all number of steels and so so many things lose to contrary (ban where) the only way to ensure you can check sleep is to run a heavy stall team with misty terrain, as terrain allows any of your pokemon to wall a sleep user and not just one. This of course fails if you lose the terrain user or terrain ends at an inopportune time and the sleep user can kill the terrain setter if it comes in. I find the argument "just use terrain lol" pretty stupid though to be honest. Didn't pdon get banned because nobody wanted to run FC tina on every team? You shouldn't be forced to run something or to lose, that falls into the category of overcenteralization and makes it bannable. Anyway, I would go as far as to say that sleep on regi cost junior the game and he would have likely won if that had not happened.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-742126725

This replay is of me being extremely salty against the same team but still squeaking a win due to several key predictions and rng luck. (Yes I would consider myself a good player as I have gotten three 50-0s this gen, two 95% gxes, and gotten to 1900+ elo) I lost ray due to a “mispredict” against sceptile thinking dazzling gar would come in off the espeed and lose me the game (I would have been locked into espeed) If sceptile stayed in and I used espeed then gar would come in to revenge kill and I would also have lost the game. (so i think it was still the right play) and mmy thinking that the opponent would heal (stupid on my part) but aside from that I had very few errors. This game showcased my opponents team (except belly drum nekroz) and revealed the presence of spore on 5/6 mons (not mewtwo). I firmly believe that I only won because I had earlier lost to the same team and new exactly the sets I was facing. Had I not I might have lost to an errant spore. Either way I think this game is highly uncompetitive due to the game being decided on a number of coinflips.


Simply the fact that an inexperienced player can slap 5 spores on a team and reach 1700s is absolutely disgusting and suggests that something needs to be done. I really don't know what else to say. It seems pretty self explanatory to me.
 
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a loser

formerly loser2017
Ran into a couple ladder teams that were spamming sleep so I wanted to share these replays. I believe that each of these replays show off the uncompetitive aspects of sleep.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-846566617
Normally, PH Xern shouldn't be able to win vs Unaware Arceus with Worry Seed, but here losing my goggles to Knock Off Xern ends up costing me the game. The opponent even says that their only hope to win the game was multiple turns of sleep, and if you play long enough it is bound to happen. (Never mind the fact that the game could have been over if I stayed in with MMX to click Photon instead of predicting a switch)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-846581328
This one is fun. The opponent lands THREE 3 turn sleeps and each of them result in a KO. The Arceus KO wouldn't have normally happened, but the opponent got the full sleep session and a critical hit. The Giratina and Audino KO's would have still happened, but Destiny Bond would have brought down Xerneas with them in either case. Not sure how this would have played out in the end without one or more of these, but Xern wouldn't have been able to sweep most likely.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-846592311
In this one I get revenge, but it didn't come easy. The opponent lands a freeze early on, which leads to my Xern answer going down before Xern even shows its face. My luck comes in on turn 16 & 17 when I get a one turn sleep followed by a Lovely Kiss miss. But if it had landed or the opponent had used Spore instead, Beedrill likely would be KO'd by Xern. If this had happened, I'd be left trying to bait Xern with Destiny Bond (twice) while hoping to get good sleep turns (twice). That's not very competitive.
These replays also reinforce to me that a sleep clause would at least provide some help. Sleep spamming teams (2+ sleep setters) are able to pull off wins like this if they get lucky, but these teams wouldn't exist in a clause meta.
 
Silent Night prelude to sleep suspect.
I just woke up in time to talk about this this year.


In my eyes sleep moves are harmless;

Safety Googles blocking Spore is about as huge as an item granting you type or move immunity.
75% accuracy is your 2nd best bet.
Your opponents items are unknown beforehand, plus they can be easily changed.
Lum Berry/Chesto Berry can give that one free turn to ruin a sleep strategy.
If your opponent is faster and can KO you, your permasleep (church talk).
The sleep timer is on YOU.

Prankster status can be blocked by Psychic Terrain, Misty Terrain blocks non Prankster status aswell.
With Terrain Extender status battle strategies can get disabled for 8 turns.
If only 1 of your pokes is getting walled the Terrain setter can re set up indefinitely, PP stall included.

Sleep used to be an old Anti-Imposter mechanic, but with better move effects around its less efficient now.
Putting multiple pokes to sleep is the fun factor, Prankster Magikarp and Transform Pikachu can do it.

Over Generations sleep has been nerfed too much, people worry about Bad Dreams instead of Dream Eater.
Contrast point would be a set upper losing all boosts after scoring 2 KOs.
Sleep is good on meta stuff like Contrary MMY or Triage M-Ray to get passed walls.


Here a selfmade Truck Driver Quote "I was asleep and i woke up in a Pokemon Center."
Have a good sleep 365 times next year, those who take a day nap 730 times.
I disagree with the option to put a sleep move on triage m-ray or contrary MMY because they need coverage and ways to get rid of shedinja, and that take all 4 slots (+m-ray triage like to have a prio that can beat m-diancie before it can fake out/primal-kyogre like giga drain)
 

a loser

formerly loser2017
So after playing in this sleep clause meta for a little bit, I'm realizing something that was brought up a little during discussion but not as much as other things. Its known and was stated during discussion that PH sweepers commonly use sleep as a means of improofing. We knew that a clause or a ban on sleep would definitely affect these mons utility but maybe not to what extent.

In the clause meta, sleep can still be used to improof PH mons, but it has to be played much more carefully on both sides of the field. As the sweeper, say PH Gigas, you would like to be able to put walls to sleep so you can knock them out with brute force. However, putting walls like Giratina and Registeel to sleep leaves room for imposter to come in and potentially take on your Gigas and win without fear of being slept. This goes for the defender as well. If you think imposter is healthy enough to come in and win, you can try to lead Gigas to sleep someone else and bring in imposter. Or, you can sleep something else so that the Gigas check is free to come in and deal with it that way.

This goes for more than just PH mons who sleep, such as Contrary, Triage, etc. If sleep was the only means of improofing you had for your sweeper, it could mean big trouble for you if imposter overpowers you.

Seeing as this works for both sides of the field, I think it is a competitive aspect that is requiring more strategy for setting sleep rather than just declaring nap time for the entire opposing team. I don't think that the clause is the perfect answer for this issue but it might be the best out of our options. Banning specific moves looks good on paper, but I don't think anyone will be satisfied with that until the highest accuracy move left is 60%.
 
So after playing in this sleep clause meta for a little bit, I'm realizing something that was brought up a little during discussion but not as much as other things. Its known and was stated during discussion that PH sweepers commonly use sleep as a means of improofing. We knew that a clause or a ban on sleep would definitely affect these mons utility but maybe not to what extent.

In the clause meta, sleep can still be used to improof PH mons, but it has to be played much more carefully on both sides of the field. As the sweeper, say PH Gigas, you would like to be able to put walls to sleep so you can knock them out with brute force. However, putting walls like Giratina and Registeel to sleep leaves room for imposter to come in and potentially take on your Gigas and win without fear of being slept. This goes for the defender as well. If you think imposter is healthy enough to come in and win, you can try to lead Gigas to sleep someone else and bring in imposter. Or, you can sleep something else so that the Gigas check is free to come in and deal with it that way.

This goes for more than just PH mons who sleep, such as Contrary, Triage, etc. If sleep was the only means of improofing you had for your sweeper, it could mean big trouble for you if imposter overpowers you.

Seeing as this works for both sides of the field, I think it is a competitive aspect that is requiring more strategy for setting sleep rather than just declaring nap time for the entire opposing team. I don't think that the clause is the perfect answer for this issue but it might be the best out of our options. Banning specific moves looks good on paper, but I don't think anyone will be satisfied with that until the highest accuracy move left is 60%.
I completely agree. No Guard might be another Sleep Clause casualty for Sing users, and it might also impact the reason (niche) for using Grass types like Sceptile-Mega over other Contrary users.
Lastly, it will also affect the commonality of Safety Goggles.
With less need for it, new items will begin to stand out as well.

Further, other status moves can be seen as necessary for teams such as Burn, or Paralysis.

I believe your points in how the metagame will change by this one new Clause will be a much bigger ripple effect than we might have originally considered. In a way, it adds more diversity to items, moves, and even abilities. In another we have been so privileged and entitled to think we can just slap Spore in anything that it will force us to come up with new ways to stop threats, or become a threat.
 
After playing in this sleep clause meta, I am actually inclined to believe that running sleep on your mons is even more of a reward than it used to be. People assume that sleep is not as prevalent, and so have been switching their Safety Goggles out for other items. That means that if your team decides to use sleep, you have an advantage. Because of the widely varying nature of threats in the metagame, most teams can only afford a single hard counter to even the toughest threats. If that threat crops up, and is running sleep, and the sole counter isn't running something to counteract being slept, your team will be swept by that threat. On the flipside, if they do turn out to be resistant to sleep, then you've just wasted a move slot (though you can just knock off the goggles or something). For example, Triage Mega Rayquaza with Spore is arguably more effective than it used to be because mons like Prankster Registeel are no longer running Safety Goggles, in favor of things like leftovers or Helmet. Another beneficiary of the sleep clause is Contrary sweepers, which can easily spiral out of control with the free turns generated by sleep. Ab
 

GL Volkner

reclaim your crown
is a Tiering Contributor
tysequaine promised me a like, karaoke and a reenactment of a vine if i post so here we go

I don't think a Sleep Clause is a very effective solution to the problem, if there is one.

For one, this is BH - If you have to decide on a mon to fodder to sleep late game, that's fine once you've figured out the opponent. However, early game, it's a lot more difficult to decide which Pokemon to sack to sleep, because they are all very important early on in the game, or rather their importance isn't established yet.

On the other hand, there's also the mindgames that sleep produces in an environment where sleep is limited to only one Pokemon. If you select sleep fodder, and it's a Pokemon that loses to the sleep user, such as sleep foddering tina to ph xern so your regi can check it, Xerneas can still click Moonblast and ruin your tina on the switch, and then you've lost your sleep fodder. What now? You can only play this mindgame so often.

In addition, you can't actually reduce the amount you prepare for sleep (honestly idk how much you all prepare, I still firmly believe this suspect is a result of laziness and convenience but w/e) by much because you still have to prepare for Pokemon that commonly run sleep, and you can't just teambuild with a dedicated fodder in mind because it's all mu dependent. You'll have a different fodder every game, and some games you may not even be able to have a fodder - So what'll you do?

I really think proceeding with a Sleep Clause would be a mistake. It's an unnecessary ban which won't actually do anything, and above all (I don't think there's any problem but) the problem you all wanted to address as a community isn't even addressed by Sleep Clause.
 
tysequaine promised me a like, karaoke and a reenactment of a vine if i post so here we go

I don't think a Sleep Clause is a very effective solution to the problem, if there is one.

For one, this is BH - If you have to decide on a mon to fodder to sleep late game, that's fine once you've figured out the opponent. However, early game, it's a lot more difficult to decide which Pokemon to sack to sleep, because they are all very important early on in the game, or rather their importance isn't established yet.

On the other hand, there's also the mindgames that sleep produces in an environment where sleep is limited to only one Pokemon. If you select sleep fodder, and it's a Pokemon that loses to the sleep user, such as sleep foddering tina to ph xern so your regi can check it, Xerneas can still click Moonblast and ruin your tina on the switch, and then you've lost your sleep fodder. What now? You can only play this mindgame so often.

In addition, you can't actually reduce the amount you prepare for sleep (honestly idk how much you all prepare, I still firmly believe this suspect is a result of laziness and convenience but w/e) by much because you still have to prepare for Pokemon that commonly run sleep, and you can't just teambuild with a dedicated fodder in mind because it's all mu dependent. You'll have a different fodder every game, and some games you may not even be able to have a fodder - So what'll you do?

I really think proceeding with a Sleep Clause would be a mistake. It's an unnecessary ban which won't actually do anything, and above all (I don't think there's any problem but) the problem you all wanted to address as a community isn't even addressed by Sleep Clause.
What if the only Sleep check/counter you need is a PHealer, Comatose, or Magic Bouncer? Comatose also prevents ability removal from Mold Breaker, Entrainment and Core Enforcer, so you won’t even need a Fairy Type.

Why does this matter? Because your opponent is now less likely to have sleep moves on more than one Pokémon, therefore if you pick a generally strong Comatose candidate, you won’t have to consider having fodder, as the Sleep Clause is actually impacting the Sleep user’s team build strategy/reliance on using Sleep offensively before the match even begins. Also, if you Scout to know which Pokémon has a Sleep move (I.e. Imposter), you probably found their only Sleep move on their team. All because of Sleep Clause... now you can send in a Comatose Pokémon and stop it from Sleeping your team.

If a generally useful Comatose Pokémon can handle most common Sleepers, and teams typically use only 1 Sleep move, doesn’t the Sleep Clause make it easier to work around it on your team defensively, since it discourages Sleep as an offensive strategy?

Sometimes the trade off for Sleep was more important than other status/attacks.

Case in point No Guard Mewtwo-Mega-Y.

Is there less of a reason to use Sing over Inferno or Zap Cannon with the Sleep Clause? Certainly, as once a Pokémon is asleep you may as well have only 3 moves on it until the sleeping Pokémon awakens. Since Inferno and Zap Cannon deal Damage, and can target up to all 6 Pokémon with a status, the trade off for using a damageless move such as Sing gets noticeable, not to mention their advantages in not being Magic Bouncesble, Tauntable, etc. all add up.

We have to assume that the likelihood of someone investing more into adding or relying on Sleep has diminished.

I think we are missing the bigger point here:

The clause served the purpose of diminishing the need for teams to depend/use Sleep, whether or not it actually diminished the need to prepare for it.

We shouldn’t only define how the Sleep Clause impacted teams defensively, we should note how it impacted teams offensively.

Afterall, is Sing on No Guard MMY going to still be a good option? Or is it now simply a decent one? I doubt MMY is the only sleeper that has to weigh this decision.
 
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Yeah I've been on the stance of sleep clause not actually solving anything, or at least, solving so little it doesn't matter.
What if the only Sleep check/counter you need is a PHealer, Comatose, or Magic Bouncer? Comatose also prevents ability removal from Mold Breaker, Entrainment and Core Enforcer, so you won’t even need a Fairy Type.

Why does this matter? Because your opponent is now less likely to have sleep moves on more than one Pokémon, therefore if you pick a generally strong Comatose candidate, you won’t have to consider having fodder, as the Sleep Clause is actually impacting the Sleep user’s team build strategy/reliance on using Sleep offensively before the match even begins. Also, if you Scout to know which Pokémon has a Sleep move (I.e. Imposter), you probably found their only Sleep move on their team. All because of Sleep Clause... now you can send in a Comatose Pokémon and stop it from Sleeping your team.

If a generally useful Comatose Pokémon can handle most common Sleepers, and teams typically use only 1 Sleep move, doesn’t the Sleep Clause make it easier to work around it on your team defensively, since it discourages Sleep as an offensive strategy?

Sometimes the trade off for Sleep was more important than other status/attacks.

Case in point No Guard Mewtwo-Mega-Y.

Is there less of a reason to use Sing over Inferno or Zap Cannon with the Sleep Clause? Certainly, as once a Pokémon is asleep you may as well have only 3 moves on it until the sleeping Pokémon awakens. Since Inferno and Zap Cannon deal Damage, and can target up to all 6 Pokémon with a status, the trade off for using a damageless move such as Sing gets noticeable, not to mention their advantages in not being Magic Bouncesble, Tauntable, etc. all add up.

We have to assume that the likelihood of someone investing more into adding or relying on Sleep has diminished.

I think we are missing the bigger point here:

The clause served the purpose of diminishing the need for teams to depend/use Sleep, whether or not it actually diminished the need to prepare for it.

We shouldn’t only define how the Sleep Clause impacted teams defensively, we should note how it impacted teams offensively.

Afterall, is Sing on No Guard MMY going to still be a good option? Or is it now simply a decent one? I doubt MMY is the only sleeper that has to weigh this decision.
Okay lets look at some mons that can viably run comatose. Tina for example. It checks gigas well, and with ph xern you really should be using something else thats more reliable. So what sleep users are we left with then..?

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 206-244 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
No guard, tina doesn't enjoy coming in on this one.

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 134-158 (26.5 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Thats without item against ph mmx. Tina does pretty well against that.

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 176-208 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 262-310 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Though I don't think ph ogre is really all that great, it's not so bad that comatose giratina checks it.

+3 252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 486-572 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Another spore/sleep user tina doesn't handle (Triage Ray)

252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 378-446 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 196-232 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 244-288 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO (Assuming mmy predicts tina's switch in)
(I don't need to show that +2 is a kill)
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 204-240 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

My overall point here is that "just run comatose lol" doesn't work out. At best youre checking some sleep runners that nearly no one has had issues with in ages (ph gigas/xern/ogre). The problamatic sleep users destroy stops to sleep, which is the issue sleep clause doesnt solve. Sure mmy can sleep one thing now but 9/10 it will have zero problems getting rid of the mon that takes a nap, meaning you're out a mon bc of sleep and sleep clause didn't help.
 
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Yeah I've been on the stance of sleep clause not actually solving anything, or at least, solving so little it doesn't matter.

Okay lets look at some mons that can viably run comatose. Tina for example. It checks gigas well, and with ph xern you really should be using something else thats more reliable. So what sleep users are we left with then..?

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 206-244 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
No guard, tina doesn't enjoy coming in on this one.

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 134-158 (26.5 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Thats without item against ph mmx. Tina does pretty well against that.

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 176-208 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 262-310 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Though I don't think ph ogre is really all that great, it's not so bad that comatose giratina checks it.

+3 252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 486-572 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Another spore/sleep user tina doesn't handle (Triage Ray)

252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 378-446 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 196-232 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 244-288 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO (Assuming mmy predicts tina's switch in)
(I don't need to show that +2 is a kill)
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 204-240 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

My overall point here is that "just run comatose lol" doesn't work out. At best youre checking some sleep runners that nearly no one has had issues with in ages (ph gigas/xern/ogre). The problamatic sleep users destroy stops to sleep, which is the issue sleep clause doesnt solve. Sure mmy can sleep one thing now but 9/10 it will have zero problems getting rid of the mon that takes a nap, meaning you're out a mon bc of sleep and sleep clause didn't help.
To be fair, if a Pokémon won’t boost, while hitting with a 3HKO, like No Guard MMY, that means Giratina can always switch in and survive, and even stall out with Shore Up, considering Blizzard has only 8 PP.

Plus, isn’t Giratina able to threaten it with Spectral Thief as well, especially if carrying Grisceous Orb- *I used Spooky Plate because the Calc won’t factor in the boost for this form of Giratina for Grisceous Orb, but it would in BH*

252 Atk Spooky Plate Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 290-344 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So it can come in to block Sleep, survive 2 Blizzards, and heal up along the way. In between heals, just 2 Spectral Thiefs KO MMY. So Tina wins.

The whole No Item on MMX Knock Off is actually pretty realistic since you cannot Knock Off Grisceous Orb, and thus it won’t ever be a 3HKO unless they boost, which it won’t want to boost thanks to Spectral Thief.

252 Atk Spooky Plate Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 234-276 (56.2 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Now, compared the 4HKO you have listed for MMX on Tina, Giratina wins...

So for both Mewtwo, Comatose Tina can handle them.
——————
For Kyogre which somehow gets a +1 boost, we know Giratina can carry Spectral Thief, so even if it switches into Quiver Dance, next turn it can steal the boosts as it takes Ice Beam, and now Giratina has +1 Special Defense from Quiver Dance. If Tina has Core Enforcer as well, we know it can remove Poison Heal and Kyogre will not be able to stay in and keep boosting.

The only mons that are immune to Spectral are Regigigas/Slaking (which you mentioned is countered pretty well by Giratina), and Arceus. Core Enforcer can still obligate PHeal Regi/Slaking to switch out as well thanks to Toxic Damage.
—————
It’s pretty funny how You offer no credit to what Giratina can do in response... as Kyogre, like the Mewtwos, are at best 3HKOs, except for Fleur Cannon, and boosts can be taken away if they ever try it, like Quiver Dance or Contrary Psycho Boost (MMY loses to 2 Spectral, while it doesn’t 2HKO Tina since it lost the boosts). This includes Ice Hammer MMX, and since Giratina can block Superpower, even Contrarians cannot boost their Attack stat.
—————
The Setpedia lists Timid or Naive, not Modest for Triage, and it makes sense... it can speedtie other opposing Triage Rayquaza-Mega, and outspeed Diancie-Mega, if you can finish it off in the event it packs Fake-Out.

+3 252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 442-522 (87.6 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Also- “If Triage Ray did Tail Glow” that’s like my Ice Shard Dazzling Slaking setting up Belly Drum and then Prankster Zygarde comes in... does that mean Prankster Zygarde can never stop it? What if they are both pivoted in?

Worst case scenario doesn’t mean only case scenario. Yes a check has to be safely switching into a Pokémon without fear of the next turn netting a 1HKO. But with only a 25% to be KOed, you can at least do Spectral or Core Enforcer once to remove the boost or abilities, send in something else:

252 SpA Draco Plate Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 258-306 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now you can send in a Normal-Type like Arceus on their expected followup Moongeist Beam, as its Immune, and outspeed to KO, since Triage is gone.
—————
Also, if we believe that the Pokémon you suggest will use Sleep moves on the turn Giratina switches in, hence why we use it as a Sleep Counter- at least the first time before they know what ability it has, or a less effective Attack if they predict you will switch in something else. You assume Giratina is a sitting duck, when in fact it is able to respond. This is not Cresselia, afterall.
———————
What about Poison Heal? That turns some of your 3HKOs into 4HKOs.

I could also list Misty Terrain, still keeping the same item for reducing Knock Off, since Giratina can also use that, which makes your team immune to Sleep, and diminishes Draco Meteor from Rayquaza.

So if we use Misty over Comatose, which also doesn’t mind Core Enforcer or Mold Breaker since it is activated on switch, then the only 2HKO you listed was Fleur Cannon. Psycho Boost is Spectral Thiefable Off MMY, and KOs MMY before Psycho Boost can.
——————
Of course Giratina is simply one Comatose user.
 
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To be fair, if a Pokémon won’t boost, while hitting with a 3HKO, like No Guard MMY, that means Giratina can always switch in and survive, and even stall out with Shore Up, considering Blizzard has only 8 PP.
iHaha yeah because tina will always be full health and the opponent is always an idiot and keeps firing moves at something that outheals. Clearly giratina is an optimal no guard mmy check and beats it every time.

Now, compared the 4HKO you have listed for MMX on Tina, Giratina wins...
yeah i said that lol.

It’s pretty funny how You offer no credit to what Giratina can do in response
no, I gave it just the right amount of credit. What it amounts to actually accomplishing is having a sleep user do chunks of damage, switch out, and repeat. Mmy isn't staying in on the tina, mmx isnt staying in either.

and boosts can be taken away if they ever try it, like Quiver Dance or Contrary Psycho Boost (MMY loses to 2 Spectral, while it doesn’t 2HKO Tina since it lost the boosts)
hokay sure bud because mmy is choosing to come in on giratina that it cant ohko haha.

Tina isnt taking boosts if its dead.

Of course Giratina is simply one Comatose user.
Okay and im pretty damn sure no other one is as good. Thats why I listed it.

These arguments are equivalent to ones i give when shitposting n om cord, jokingly defending my claim of something being a check, knowing that to be one it needs stupidly unrealistic and/or hyper optimized situations to do what I'm claiming. You seemingly fail to realize holes in your points, like how giratina isn't going to be taking boosts from a contra mmy. Thats an absolutely absurd claim to make, one that reeks of desperation. I'd like to note i had used your post as a reason to talk about my own opinions on this, hoping you wouldnt respond because you claimed to have ignored me.

Do me a favor and commit to that.

Forgot to include that my main point was coma gira isnt reliable.
 
iHaha yeah because tina will always be full health and the opponent is always an idiot and keeps firing moves at something that outheals. Clearly giratina is an optimal no guard mmy check and beats it every time.


yeah i said that lol.


no, I gave it just the right amount of credit. What it amounts to actually accomplishing is having a sleep user do chunks of damage, switch out, and repeat. Mmy isn't staying in on the tina, mmx isnt staying in either.


hokay sure bud because mmy is choosing to come in on giratina that it cant ohko haha.

Tina isnt taking boosts if its dead.


Okay and im pretty damn sure no other one is as good. Thats why I listed it.

These arguments are equivalent to ones i give when shitposting n om cord, jokingly defending my claim of something being a check, knowing that to be one it needs stupidly unrealistic and/or hyper optimized situations to do what I'm claiming. You seemingly fail to realize holes in your points, like how giratina isn't going to be taking boosts from a contra mmy. Thats an absolutely absurd claim to make, one that reeks of desperation. I'd like to note i had used your post as a reason to talk about my own opinions on this, hoping you wouldnt respond because you claimed to have ignored me.

Do me a favor and commit to that.

Forgot to include that my main point was coma gira isnt reliable.
Was this supposed to make me look bad or hurt my feelings?
If you need to use my posts to promote your own ideas maybe you should prove it without relying on others.

You didn’t prove me wrong. you said it couldn’t check, and it was apparent it can.

Since when does MMY get to endlessly switch in and wear down Giratina? You aren’t being realistic, otherwise no defensive would count if you just endless wear it down. Your switch out can lead to Giratina healing up, so clearly it can return to check the same Pokémon multiple times... Regenerator is the only ability that rewards switching, so are you saying that any other defensive check doesn’t count?

Also if someone was ignore you, why would you quote their post? I happened to see it as I was scrolling through before I logged in, so since it happened to include my post I thought I could log in and demonstrate where you made an error.

Your post above ignores a lot of where you were proven wrong, such as with Quiver Dance Kyogre, or if I had Poison Heal over Comatose.

Cherry picking and still not proving me wrong doesn’t help your case.

If a Pokémon can force out an offensive threat, it qualifies as a check.

Plus, it can heal if they decide to switch, just as it would heal vs a 3HKO move, thus if you cannot break past a Giratina and have to switch out on the turn it would heal either way, then clearly Giratina is in no worse shape that it was when it switched in...

Also, no one said that MMY would switch into Giratina, I said sometimes you can double pivot (your team and your opponents send in something in the same turn), and Giratina wouldn’t be threatened if it can just respond accordingly, based on the standard movesets for Comatose.

You seem to get personal over this, my focus was on the facts. It’s not that big of a deal, I hope you can move forward now.
 
This actually hurts me physically.

I literally said it was unreliable but apparetly the fact it isnt 2hkod makes it a check okay.

No its not unrealistic to assume mmy has no trouble switching out repeatedly because it fucking *can* man. You come in it sees its not doing enough so it leaves and what have you actually done outside prolonging your death. Nice job ignoring tina gets chipped too btw

Theres literally no need to address those parts. One is an actually idiotic point because hey news flash you cant just switch to ph mid battle or every time you find yourself against those specific threats and thi is about COMATOSE. but i can clearly see how im proven wrong by you not even sticking to the original topic.

Checks shouldn't require some complex play to check what theyre meant to. Coma gira doesnt check contrary mmy.

Yeah youre right I did get personal over this because your being adamant about not being wrong instead addressing the actual point of the fucking post in the first place is extremely irritating.

The bh threads are on a downward spiral and mediocre posts like this that dont address what the posts theyre in response to are about are whats bringing theyre fall.

Kill me.
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

went from brawl to melee, still mediocre
is a Community Contributor
this is really stupid

no one is arguing that gira isn't a check for these mons. people are arguing that it isn't a counter.

that's relevant because thanks to sleep, users like contrary, triage ray, and other breakers can force out an unreasonably high amount of mons and make you go into the comatose/ph user every single time.

this leads to a 50/50 heavily weighted in the sleep user's favor. if you go to gira on sleep or stay in on setup, you at best force them out. but if they set up on the giratina switch, that's a free kill, and if they sleep your mon that's currently in, it could potentially be even worse for you.

if your sleep answer can't counter them, it's really only a matter of time until it dies and everyone else gets slept and you lose. i know this because i've been in this situation so many times. i've lost because my bounce magearna couldn't counter magma storm xern so i had to rely on unreliable answers and lost because of it. i've won because my ph phero/zeraora had no ph/comatose user on the opposing team that reliably countered it. what experience do you have with sleep besides spamming your misty surge team on ladder and still getting smashed multiple times by spore tyranitar?

sleep is broken on these already dangerous sweepers, and it'll take more than these petty arguments that assume best case scenarios to convince me otherwise.
 

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