BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[drampa's grandpa]

Balanced Hackmons is pretty inherently a slow metagame because everything can run recovery. This leads to any bulky Pokemon you can't reliably break having to be PP stalled or maneuvered into a position where it's chipped enough and the right mon is in. That doesn't make stall too good or broken, it's just part of how the meta works.

Keeping broken offensive abilities to nerf Stall because some people don't like the playstyle is just poor tiering (I'm not saying contrary is broken, I'll leave that to others who know the tier better to hash out).

If something has extremely limited defensive counterplay it should probably be banned, and not doing so to promote one playstyle is sketchy in the extreme.

I mostly agree with ElMustacho, and the other people who have posted. Contrary is dangerous because you set up by using high powered attacks, while the defending mon can't simultaneously remove those boosts and stay healthy. I think this ban has been a long time coming.

I also agree; ban double iron bash gen 8

 

[Rumors]

If you wanna hurt stall and whatever, ban U-Turn. I'm confident nobody's gonna support that, but feel free to target it since that move is like 95% of the strategies in BH and most balance/stall are super reliant on that move and its clones.

...mind, people, I am not suggesting a U-Turn ban. Just making a point.


Flint's arguments/counter points are good, but I feel he missed a couple of bits on counterpoints.

Spectral Thief: Contrary has the freedom to slot Spectral Thief on its own, allowing it to steal its own boosts back. This is somewhat match-up dependent, but more passive walls, like Registeel, can easily be robbed safely, while something like Kyogre might be too dangerous to stay in on. The only mons that can run Spectral safely are Arceus, Audino, Chansey, Gigas, Slaking, M-Khan, and a few niche Normals I'm forgetting. Of those, barring niche Imposter-checks, only defensive Arceus, Audino, and Chansey can reliably run Spectral against Contrary. And of those, only Arceus has a chance of doing anything with the boosts itself.

Which, second point. If the Spectral Thief user can't be a threat with the stolen boosts, then it can wind up being a momentum drain or still outright lose to Contrary, depending on the match-up. EG, Spectral Audino cannot take repeated Psycho Boosts to the face from MMY, boosted or not, and will be forced to heal or retreat pretty quickly.

Third point, if flops against stray Contrary Normals. This is minor since Contrary Gigas and stuff are really rare, but worth noting.


Haze, Destiny Bond, Topsy Turvy, Heart Swap, similar: Contrary has the freedom to run Taunt, which shuts all of these down, plus their recovery, unless they're running Bounce or have hard core predicts. Passive walls, and most Unawares, flounder against Taunt and can only U-Turn out while Contrary gets a boost of its choice.

Possible unmentioned Anti-Ban arguments and counters to them, including for completeness sake

Mind when reading these, I'm presently pro-suspect/ban.


-Burn works well at shutting down physical Contrary, but struggles on mixed and is mostly useless on special. Contrary can run Aromatherapy support to handle this. Or pack a Lum Berry.

-Whirlwind/Dragon Tail/Circle Throw force Contrary out, but the user will have to take a hit to do it, probably a boosted one. It also fails if the Contrary is the last mon on the team. D.Tail also fails against Contrary MDiancie and Circle Throw against the incredibly rare Contrary MGengar. Otherwise, it's usually a pretty good answer since it'll typically give the user a chance to catch their breath, albeit this is dependent on the team vs team match-up. Contrary could run Magic Coat to beat it. But... who runs Magic Coat?

-Paralysis works well on Contrary lacking V-Create, but is shaky on V-Create users if they can't be forced out. Same points for status removal as burn.

-Sleep. But Sleep Clause + double Contrary.

-Skill Swap/Entrainment/Gastro Acid will stop Contrary's boosting in its tracks, especially Simple/Normalize Swap/Entrain, but they may still have boosts to utilize. It pairs well with King's Shield, however.

-Contrary is pretty unpredictable. Most typical abusers usually have multiple meta or even merely viable sets they can run. You can't look at team preview and go "Yeah, that's probably Contrary." You can say "That might be Contrary", but that's it. ...okay, not an anti-ban point, but really worth bringing up for pro-ban.

-Choice Trick can keep a Contrary from switching moves, but each Choice item has its drawback that can make some Contraries harder to check (Scarf is safest). There's also all the problems of opposing Knock Off and the user's team using Knock Off.

-Contrary can check Contrary by setting Imprison. But uhhh... I don't think Contrary being able to check itself with a niche set counts for any sort of anti-ban point. But if I get the time, I should try running that for the lulz before the suspect ladder hits.

-PP drain tactics, like Spite, Pressure, and Grudge, can dry out a Contrary very fast, but these tactics are risky and niche to begin with.

-Amnesia/Cotton Guard can keep up with Contrary boosts, barring crits. But these boosts are easily stolen/removed/etc. and are typically sub-optimal picks. See also Contrary packing Spectral Thief.

-Offensive Unaware can attempt to set-up alongside with Quiver Dance or Coil and/or steal boosts with Spectral to sweep, but I'm not aware of any meta offensive Unaware mons.

-Lots of other off-metal/non-viable options, like Lightning Rod Electrify and other junk. I think I was pushing viability on everything after "use Trick", so I don't think I need to bother figuring out the "Yeah but-" anti-ban arguments and trying to counter them. ...but seriously, Imprison Contrary just sounds dumb enough to be fun, so I had to mention that one.

 

[willdbeast]

Spectral Thief: Contrary has the freedom to slot Spectral Thief on its own, allowing it to steal its own boosts back.

This doesn't work because it's contrary

 

[Champion Leon]

E4 Flint
Moldy Moves:

It would need to be established that the overall coverage and properties of the MoldMoves make them broken when used with most varieties of setup and in general play.

First on Coverage: I would say Photon Geyser getting STAB can be more beneficial than having good coverage for MMX, and MMY. In regards to the properties of the moves, Photon in particular can allow MMX to switch from physical attacker to special attack via Fleur Cannon alone.

In regards to their coverage in General, if Moongeist Beam didn’t handle Ghost and Psychic-types, then Superpower would be much easier to wall. Just imagine Flash Fire Steel-Types like Aegislash walling both V-Create, and Superpower, leaving only a resisted Photon Geyser to hit from the physical-side.

252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 83-99 (25.6 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Fleur Cannon certainly wouldn’t do enough...
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 56-66 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO

Their properties alone don’t make them broken, but their use in combination with other boosts from Abilities, Attacks and items can push them over the edge when all factors are combined, for Contrary, and with Simple. Afterall, how many Pokémon cannot serve as an Unaware check due to Moongeist Beam alone?

Psychic is walled by Psychic, as is Fighting, but MMX can just use Moongeist Beam to bypass Psychic checks. Otherwise Defensive Psychics like Cresselia would be a prominent Unaware Wall without fear.

Audino-Mega cannot serve as an Unaware or Fur Coat Defensive Check when the foe packs Sunsteel Strike.

The fact that Unaware Gyarados-Mega is a thing is testament to the level of coverage they provide, as there is little, if anything, without that typing that can withstand Moldy Moves. The next closest option would be Fire/Dark, and those Pokémon like Incinaroar just don’t have the Defensive Stats to tank those hits.

Personally, I think it's difficult to argue this point. Contrary + MoldMoves complex clause is not to be considered, MoldMoves, Contrary even without them has been discussion worthy as the power creep makes the Contrary moves hit harder than they used to, even if we ignore the increases to their stats and treat every hit as +0 or an increase to Speed only.

That’s not true, all -2 SpA Offense moves (besides Psycho Boost) lost 10 Base power in the generation shift between Gen 5 & Gen 6. 10 Base power seems small, but after STAB, that becomes 15, and the gap widens after each +2 SpA boost the Pokémon get. Afterall, we still had Kyurem-White at 170 Base SpA in Gen 5, so let’s not pretend it was strictly the base stat points that drew the concern for power creep since then. Back then we also didn’t have Fur Coat, and Fairy types to freely switch into V-Create / Superpower or Draco Meteor, respectively, so imagine Draco Meteor Kyurem-White back then... a much bigger threat than now.
————
Did we forget Imprison?

Imprison on a Contrary user, especially when paired with Special Attacks and V-Create to minimize Struggle Damage, can Effectively Counter Imposter.

Photon, V-Create, Fleur Cannon, Imprison on MMY effectively uses Photon to bypass Sturdinja, and Unaware, while Fleur Cannon boosts its SpA, V-Create adds speed and defenses to handle faster threats like Beedrill-Mega, and to tank priority.

Imprison blocks Imposter, and quite frankly, many other Pokémon from using V-Create on their sets.

I don’t think everyone should advocate for Imprison. But I could see it’s use for counterplay on Imposter and other Contrarians (like MMX).
Edit- Rumors just read your post mentions it, but couldn’t get thru your entire post- initially.

We don't need to worry about the next best thing unless it's extremely similar, that's now how suspects/bans work. Like, if we were going to ban Slaking for whatever reason, then discussing it without including Regigigas would be a bad idea, yeah. But exceptions like that are extremely few and far in-between and the only one I can think of that ever actually came up was Magnet Pull in the Gengarite discussion.

Besides, if we wanna get literal, the most Contrary-like non-Contrary thing would be (Simple) Power-up Punch.

Also, because I forgot to mention it earlier, but obligatory "You guys should really look at X/Ytwo sometime because guess who's at the forefront of abusing the current item of suspicion again!" Don't let this line veer discussion away but, seriously, can we at least talk about these guys sometime in the future after we decide on suspecting Contrary or not? Doesn't need to be next but, you know, someday would be good.

I think the difference between Simple Power-Up Punch and Beast Boost is that Beast Boost allows you to get a boost off of any finishing move, while a Ghost-Type can Wall Power-Up Punch like it can Superpower.

Beast Boost can also allow you to change the stat you want boosted. So if Hasty Necrozma-Ultra uses Psycho Boost to KO a foe, after the stat is lowered, it gets +1 Attack and then next turn uses Photon Geyser off of its Attack stat, it can mixed sweep, and likely get a second KO with the new boost, effectively letting it get to +2 Attack.

I think that what makes Simple limited is that it cannot Snowball as easily. Plus, 40 Base power? Shell Smash works better, but requires White Herb to avoid -2 Defenses.

Anyways, I don’t think Beast Boost or others are broken, afterall no one really uses them now... but I could see them rising to help replicate what Contrary does- Boost without losing momentum.
———————
I think we should also mention which Pokémon besides the big three benefit from Contrary:

So besides Rayquaza-Mega, Mewtwo-Mega-X, Mewtwo-Mega-Y, we also see Sceptile-Mega, Blaziken-Mega, and Necrozma-Ultra.

Is there any another Contrary user we may have missed?

 

[Rumors]

This doesn't work because it's contrary

Wait, Contrary Spectral Thief turns stolen boosts into drops? That's really weird, especially if that's accurate to in-game. But, it does open up the really dumb but hilarious sounding Contrary Entrainment to nail Spectral Thief users. ...which, I kinda wanna see. If I find the time, I need to get some replays of a team with both an Imprison Contrary and an Entrainment Contrary for teh lulz.

I think we should also mention which Pokémon besides the big three benefit from Contrary:

So besides Rayquaza-Mega, Mewtwo-Mega-X, Mewtwo-Mega-Y, we also see Sceptile-Mega, Blaziken-Mega, and Necrozma-Ultra.

Is there any another Contrary user we may have missed?

Mega-Diancie, Deo-A, Kyurem-W, and Xerneas all have Contrary on the setpedia and therefore are also meta options, or at least were at one point.

Reshiram is the only non-Setpedia mon off the top of my head who's a good Contrary user.

Most offensive Pokemon can run Contrary to some degree of effectiveness, like Slaking for Spectral immunity, but most of them are outclassed due to lack of STAB. So, you could put most, if not all, offensive mons on the list of "benefits from Contrary", even if they aren't necessarily good at it. Some balanced/defensive Pokemon can pull the set off too, like Ho-Oh, but they're usually a little slow to get going and usually are pretty niche as a result.

There's a number of outclassed Pokemon that utilize Contrary well (M-Gardevoir, Victini, Celebi, etc.) thanks to typing that one might stumble across on some very niche teams, but these probably aren't worth considering if you're wondering who gets impacted by a Contrary ban.

That’s not true, all -2 SpA Offense moves (besides Psycho Boost) lost 10 Base power in the generation shift between Gen 5 & Gen 6. 10 Base power seems small, but after STAB, that becomes 15, and the gap widens after each +2 SpA boost the Pokémon get. Afterall, we still had Kyurem-White at 170 Base SpA in Gen 5, so let’s not pretend it was strictly the base stat points that drew the concern for power creep since then. Back then we also didn’t have Fur Coat, and Fairy types to freely switch into V-Create / Superpower or Draco Meteor, respectively, so imagine Draco Meteor Kyurem-White back then... a much bigger threat than now.

I'm gonna button my reply here because it's a bit off-topic, but Imma explain why Gen V Kyu-W wasn't a big deal. Gen VI is a different beast and the answers depend on whether you're talking about early X/Y (pre-ability clause, pre510), middle X/Y (post-ability, pre-510), late X/Y, or ORAS.

Hide

Both Flint and I were around in Gen V, so no imagining required. Back in Gen V, Kyu-W was the premiere Contrary user. For straight walling, a few Unaware mons did it, like Cresselia, provided Kyu-W didn't score a critical hit. However, Gen V was a stally metagame. Like, very stally. Like, offense struggled outside a couple of weather-archetypes stally. Like, Imposter was little more than a scout stally. For those of you who hate stall in Gen VII, don't go back in time to Gen V, you'll hate it. Gen V had a few things that kept Kyu-W in check though.

In no particular order...

Gen V was a very bulky metagame, so most common mons could take a Draco or even a boosted one. There was no sleep clause, no Safety Goggles, and the sleep counter reset when forced out. So, Kyu-W was always at risk of getting slept and then Dragon Tailed or Whirlwinded, making it useless on a team without a very strong Cleric once it was asleep. A lot of these mons also had Magic Bounce, to the point there was usually one or two Bouncers per team, meaning Taunt/Encore were not options for Kyu-W. Kyu-W's only defense was a one-use Lum Berry.

But really, I mean bulky. Most frail mons were a liability and Life Orb was often seen as a bad item because of the recoil (Magic Guard sets notwithstanding). Most Pokemon ran recovery or, at the very least, had Wish support. Some even used Rest!

Deo-S was on almost every team and would outspeed Kyu-W if it didn't have V-Create going. Some Deo-S were prankster anyway just to beat other Deo-S and almost all of them carried Spore. There was also a hefty number of No Guard Zap/Dynamic Deo-S if memory serves right.

Knock Off was rare, and Toxic Orb Psycho Shift was fairly common, often limiting Kyu-W's rampage.

Trick was kinda common if memory serves right and Kyu-W didn't appreciate any of the common Trick items. (Flame Orb, Toxic Orb, Choice Scarf).

Prankster was super, super common. Notably, Nature Power worked with it and turned into Earthquake. Groudon could just priority wreck Kyu-W. Also notable is that Roarcat was also a legal and viable strategy. Prankster D.Bond was also pretty common and teams were often built in a way they could function perfectly fine without the D.Bonder since role compression wasn't nearly so important.

About 60%-80% of the teams in BH ran weather. Kyu-W had trouble breaking Shuckle in sand if it didn't have boosts while it was incredibly vulnerable to Swift Swim Palkia and Chlorophyl Reshiram, two of the biggest offensive threats in the meta and would drop it with Spacial Rend or Eruption.

Flashfire Skarmory and Ferrothorn were both fairly common, both of which wall Kyu-W's Draco/V-Create combo. Kyu-W often didn't run Blizzard or Ice Beam if memory serves right.

Quiver Dance was the goto set-up move for any special attacker. After a boost or two, Kyu-W would struggle to get going against it. Worth noting some Q.Dancers were also Unaware.

Another major threat to Kyu-W was "killerchops". Which was Magic Guard Archeops with Head Smash and either Life or Toxic Orb (though sometimes Aerodactyl run it to speedcreep Archeops). Head Smash was a OHKO on Kyu-W if memory serves right.

People often didn't run minimal speed, so Kyu-W actually risked being outsped by everything in the 90-100 speed tier (depending on nature), at which the vast majority of the meta sat. Unlike now where Kyu-W had a good shot of outpacing anything defensive below... is it 110 or 115?


It was a very different time. Kyu-W was a mean Contrary, but it was not the strongest offensive threat in the meta, not even close. That probably would have went to weather-abusing Palkia/Reshiram and Prankster Groudon. And maybe weather-abuse Darmanitan.

Really wished I saved more replays of the time. I only have some more unusual ones. >.>

 

[Champion Leon]

Wait, Contrary Spectral Thief turns stolen boosts into drops? That's really weird, especially if that's accurate to in-game. But, it does open up the really dumb but hilarious sounding Contrary Entrainment to nail Spectral Thief users. ...which, I kinda wanna see. If I find the time, I need to get some replays of a team with both an Imprison Contrary and an Entrainment Contrary for teh lulz.





Mega-Diancie, Deo-A, Kyurem-W, and Xerneas all have Contrary on the setpedia and therefore are also meta options, or at least were at one point.

Reshiram is the only non-Setpedia mon off the top of my head who's a good Contrary user.

Most offensive Pokemon can run Contrary to some degree of effectiveness, like Slaking for Spectral immunity, but most of them are outclassed due to lack of STAB. So, you could put most, if not all, offensive mons on the list of "benefits from Contrary", even if they aren't necessarily good at it. Some balanced/defensive Pokemon can pull the set off too, like Ho-Oh, but they're usually a little slow to get going and usually are pretty niche as a result.

There's a number of outclassed Pokemon that utilize Contrary well (M-Gardevoir, Victini, Celebi, etc.) thanks to typing that one might stumble across on some very niche teams, but these probably aren't worth considering if you're wondering who gets impacted by a Contrary ban.






I'm gonna button my reply here because it's a bit off-topic, but Imma explain why Gen V Kyu-W wasn't a big deal. Gen VI is a different beast and the answers depend on whether you're talking about early X/Y (pre-ability clause, pre510), middle X/Y (post-ability, pre-510), late X/Y, or ORAS.

Hide

Both Flint and I were around in Gen V, so no imagining required. Back in Gen V, Kyu-W was the premiere Contrary user. For straight walling, a few Unaware mons did it, like Cresselia, provided Kyu-W didn't score a critical hit. However, Gen V was a stally metagame. Like, very stally. Like, offense struggled outside a couple of weather-archetypes stally. Like, Imposter was little more than a scout stally. For those of you who hate stall in Gen VII, don't go back in time to Gen V, you'll hate it. Gen V had a few things that kept Kyu-W in check though.

In no particular order...

Gen V was a very bulky metagame, so most common mons could take a Draco or even a boosted one. There was no sleep clause, no Safety Goggles, and the sleep counter reset when forced out. So, Kyu-W was always at risk of getting slept and then Dragon Tailed or Whirlwinded, making it useless on a team without a very strong Cleric once it was asleep. A lot of these mons also had Magic Bounce, to the point there was usually one or two Bouncers per team, meaning Taunt/Encore were not options for Kyu-W. Kyu-W's only defense was a one-use Lum Berry.

But really, I mean bulky. Most frail mons were a liability and Life Orb was often seen as a bad item because of the recoil (Magic Guard sets notwithstanding). Most Pokemon ran recovery or, at the very least, had Wish support. Some even used Rest!

Deo-S was on almost every team and would outspeed Kyu-W if it didn't have V-Create going. Some Deo-S were prankster anyway just to beat other Deo-S and almost all of them carried Spore. There was also a hefty number of No Guard Zap/Dynamic Deo-S if memory serves right.

Knock Off was rare, and Toxic Orb Psycho Shift was fairly common, often limiting Kyu-W's rampage.

Trick was kinda common if memory serves right and Kyu-W didn't appreciate any of the common Trick items. (Flame Orb, Toxic Orb, Choice Scarf).

Prankster was super, super common. Notably, Nature Power worked with it and turned into Earthquake. Groudon could just priority wreck Kyu-W. Also notable is that Roarcat was also a legal and viable strategy. Prankster D.Bond was also pretty common and teams were often built in a way they could function perfectly fine without the D.Bonder since role compression wasn't nearly so important.

About 60%-80% of the teams in BH ran weather. Kyu-W had trouble breaking Shuckle in sand if it didn't have boosts while it was incredibly vulnerable to Swift Swim Palkia and Chlorophyl Reshiram, two of the biggest offensive threats in the meta and would drop it with Spacial Rend or Eruption.

Flashfire Skarmory and Ferrothorn were both fairly common, both of which wall Kyu-W's Draco/V-Create combo. Kyu-W often didn't run Blizzard or Ice Beam if memory serves right.

Quiver Dance was the goto set-up move for any special attacker. After a boost or two, Kyu-W would struggle to get going against it. Worth noting some Q.Dancers were also Unaware.

Another major threat to Kyu-W was "killerchops". Which was Magic Guard Archeops with Head Smash and either Life or Toxic Orb (though sometimes Aerodactyl run it to speedcreep Archeops). Head Smash was a OHKO on Kyu-W if memory serves right.

People often didn't run minimal speed, so Kyu-W actually risked being outsped by everything in the 90-100 speed tier (depending on nature), at which the vast majority of the meta sat. Unlike now where Kyu-W had a good shot of outpacing anything defensive below... is it 110 or 115?


It was a very different time. Kyu-W was a mean Contrary, but it was not the strongest offensive threat in the meta, not even close. That probably would have went to weather-abusing Palkia/Reshiram and Prankster Groudon. And maybe weather-abuse Darmanitan.

Really wished I saved more replays of the time. I only have some more unusual ones. >.>

Thank you for your fair and unbiased reply. It’s good to see that type of post here.

In either case, I think my point was that the power creep since Gen 7, has also been for Defensive strategies, i.e. Fairy types walling Dragon moves, weaker offensively Base Powered Contrary moves, (and even just having more options for Unaware by virtue of new Pokémon).

Plus we didn’t have things like Sunsteel Strike and such to KO Pokémon like Kyurem-W, Core Enforcer to hurt Dragons and remove abilities, or Spectral Thief to remove the boosts. The Defensive options this generation certainly have helped in most cases besides the Moldy Moves.

Back then, use Shedinja and you are able to wall Contrary- period. Moldy Moves changed all of that.

I remember I played BH back in Gen 5 as well. I agree with your points on how Kyurem-W wasn’t the huge domineering Force MMY/X are today, but Contrary was still a huge factor back then as the main option besides Simple, as without Moldy Moves you could theoretically just use Unaware to stop it - but only if you wouldn’t end up 2HKOed by Specs Draco Meteor from Kyurem-White. I.e. Use Unaware Chansey.

I think the power creep was my real disagreement. While we have Pokémon with offensive stats in the 190s, we also have more bulky answers to them, just look at Zygarde-Complete, and abilities like Fur Coat. Afterall, E4 Flint said the power creep was about the moves becoming stronger, and they have actually become weaker.
The only thing we gained was Dragon Ascent, Ice Hammer, and Fleur Cannon.

Dragon Ascent is largely only used for STAB, such as on Rayquaza-Mega, Ice Hammer is largely only used by MMX when not using Fleur Cannon, I.e. to KO Unaware Zygarde-Complete.

And Fleur Cannon is no more powerful than Overheat, the only difference is you can get it off without a type/ability Immunity.

So in regards to base power- no.
In regards to more powerful offensive threats - yes.
In regards to there being more Defensive answers to Offensive threats - I would say yes as well.

A case could be made for power creeping for Gen 7 due to Moldy Moves, but not due to Contrarian moves alone.

motherlove made the case for Kyogre-Primal walling things with Assault Vest, and Kyurem-White didn’t have that wall back in Gen 5. Regular Kyogre has 66 less stat points in SpD than Primal-Kyogre does with Assault Vest (20 Base = x2 actual stat points = 40 x 1.5 from AV = 60 x 1.1 from a Sassy Nature = 66).

And even if Spectral Thief existed back then, the Unaware users would be much more vulnerable due to lower defenses and even offensive Attack to hurt as much with the move Spectral Thief.

 

[SadisticMystic]

Wait, Contrary Spectral Thief turns stolen boosts into drops? That's really weird, especially if that's accurate to in-game. But, it does open up the really dumb but hilarious sounding Contrary Entrainment to nail Spectral Thief users. ...which, I kinda wanna see. If I find the time, I need to get some replays of a team with both an Imprison Contrary and an Entrainment Contrary for teh lulz.

This is indeed correct game behavior.

 

[E4 Flint]

BH7 Suspect #8: Contrary has been officially launched.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-8-contrary-voter-id-information.3650437/

Though I have no way to enforce or guide anyone specifically, I would recommend making use of the ability so one can see its impact both as the user and the one opposing it. Enjoy

 

[ufailowell]

It's been a while.

Is Prankster not still a core ability? Topsy Turvy always used to hard counter me in gen 6.

 

[Rumors]

It's been a while.

Is Prankster not still a core ability? Topsy Turvy always used to hard counter me in gen 6.

Prankster Topsy-Turvy has fallen out of use thanks to the rise of set-up users with Dazzling/Queenly Majesty, which prevents the ability-holder from being targeted by priority moves. If your only answer to set-up is a Prankster Topsyturvy and a Dazzling Focus Sash MMX sets up a Shell Smash, you're kind of screwed. Consequently, Prankster Haze has become the default anti-set-up move, which still works since it targets the field rather than any Pokemon.

Dark-types are also straight-up immune to Prankster, regardless of ability.

Topsy still works on Contrary, of course, but it's hard to fit it in and something to deal with priority-immune set-up. Non-Prankster Topsy is better, but you have to take the hit which is very non-trivial in Contrary's case. Unaware Topsy is the safest, but doesn't actually benefit from the opposing stat drops and tends to get shut down by Moldy moves like Sunsteel Strike.

 

[Champion Leon]

Prankster Topsy-Turvy has fallen out of use thanks to the rise of set-up users with Dazzling/Queenly Majesty, which prevents the ability-holder from being targeted by priority moves. If your only answer to set-up is a Prankster Topsyturvy and a Dazzling Focus Sash MMX sets up a Shell Smash, you're kind of screwed. Consequently, Prankster Haze has become the default anti-set-up move, which still works since it targets the field rather than any Pokemon.

Dark-types are also straight-up immune to Prankster, regardless of ability.

Topsy still works on Contrary, of course, but it's hard to fit it in and something to deal with priority-immune set-up. Non-Prankster Topsy is better, but you have to take the hit which is very non-trivial in Contrary's case. Unaware Topsy is the safest, but doesn't actually benefit from the opposing stat drops and tends to get shut down by Moldy moves like Sunsteel Strike.

Why not just use Haze and Topsy Turvey in the same Prankster Set to cover both types of set up (Dazzling / Queenly Majesty / Dark - types, as well as Contrary)?

Like Haze, Topsy Turvey, Recover, Core Enforcer Zygarde/Giratina.
It could replace Destiny Bond.
Registeel with a Prankster would be another option.

I did that with a Giratina and it helped. Having Unaware would still be useful though, such as if they carry a Draco Meteor / V-Create Contrary Rayquaza-Mega, which can handle both types of Prankster (Dragons / Steels) but it wouldn’t hurt.

Fortunately Sunsteel Strike isn’t common on Contrary users as they typically stick with Photon Geyser or Moongeist Beam, which makes it easier to slot an Immunity to either as an Unaware user, such as Gyarados-Mega or Chansey.

Lastly, Spectral Thief is the ideal choice for Unaware users Versus Contrarian users over Topsy Turvey, as it can acquire the boosts for itself, and Contrarians are the only sets that cannot take advantage of using Spectral Thief themselves.

I find that if Contrary Rayquaza lacks Leaf Storm and uses Draco, V-Create, Dragon Ascent and Superpower, then Fur Coat Tapu Fini can check it - sporting an immunity to Draco Meteor, resisting Superpower on the switch in, and Spectral Thiefing away the Defense and Offense boosts before it can set up with Superpower + Dragon Ascent.
Calcs:

Hide

252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Tapu Fini: 118-140 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- 50.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Tapu Fini: 39-47 (11.3 - 13.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Tapu Fini: 78-94 (22.6 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ultimately, even if it switches into Superpower and takes Dragon Ascent next turn, it would take 13.60% + 60.90% = 74.5% - 12.5% = 62% after Leftovers, using Spectral Thief on the second hit before it takes + 27.30% from Dragon Ascent having totaled 89.30% damage - 6.25% = 83.05% after Leftovers.
This all assumes max damage roll on all 3 hits, so since that is very unlikely, most of the time it could switch into Stealth Rocks and survive the third hit as well.

Edit: Let’s not forget Dragon Tail, Circle Throw, and Whirlwind as well. It may be on a strong Defensive Check before the boosts have accumulated such as on a RegenVester or Fur Coat user.

 

[Chessking345]

With the Suspect Test on, I would like to talk about my opinion on why Contrary is ban-worthy, specifically it’s ridiculous strength, how difficult it is to check, and how Contrary is low-risk, high-reward.

How Contrary is ridiculously strong

Offensive Pokémon in BH can be partitioned into 3 categories: Wallbreakers, Sweepers, and Support. For example, Wallbreakers include SF MMY and -ates, Sweepers include Shell Smash and Triage Ray, and Support includes PH Xern, MMX, and Anchor PDon. They all have notable flaws. Wallbreakers can sometimes be revenge killed or struggle to perform well if the opponent has a good answer, they are often choice locked as well, which requires prediction to utilize to the maximum potential. Sweepers tend to lack immediate power and usually have limited opportunities (sometimes only 1) to set up in a game. Support tend to lack coverage in favour of longevity, which increases the amount of mons that can check them.

Contrary is simultaneously a Wallbreaker and a Sweeper, granting it the advantage of being able to boost past checks that would otherwise handle Wallbreakers AND open up opportunities to setup thanks to its immediate power from ridiculously high BP moves (LO Psycho Boost is stronger than SF Psychic). Furthermore, unlike many Wallbreakers, Contrary mons aren’t usually Choice locked, making it even more difficult to check. Their raw unboosted damage also pressures checks such as Unaware that performs better against standard setup such as Shell Smash due to the generally lower damage output. In addition, due to doing a crap ton of damage while boosting, it discourages the opposing mon from going for the slow pivot into Imposter play. Finally, because Contrary has the ability to brute force past even resists if the opposing mon cannot threaten it too much (such as FF Steel without Topsy against say Contrary MMY), Contrary users don’t actually need a lot of coverage. Typically Contrary users just need STABs, a single coverage move (such as Overheat or Fleur Cannon, mainly to help against fat resists or immunities), and maybe a Moldy move. This gives it more flexibility as to what can be run in the 4th moveslot. For example, MMY can run Psycho Boost, Fleur Cannon, V-create/Overheat/Superpower, and the last move is basically free, Moongeist lets it beat Shed, Strength Sap gives it incredible longevity, Encore/Taunt messes with passive mons, etc.

The generally high Viability of Contrary mons as well as it’s good splashability also shows Contrary’s strength. Nearly every offensive mon can use Contrary effectively, and it is always one of the strongest sets. MMY, MMX, Ray, Scept, and Necrozma-Ultra are the obvious abusers, but even mons such as Mega Gengar and Mega Diancie, and can pull it off fairly well (Mega Gengar doesn’t even have a STAB move that is boosted by Contrary).

How tf do you actually check this

Contrary is extremely limiting on teambuilding because of how little good answers there are to it, mainly due to its sheer power. Prankster users tend to not perform very well against them because all the common Prankster users bar Cresselia (which is never used anyways even though it’s pretty good) are weak to a Contrary boosting move (Draco, Fleur, Overheat) so even if they carry Topsy they still take a huge chunk.

Unaware mons do OK but they not only need sheer bulk to take potentially Life Orb boosted 130 BP STAB moves but also have an advantageous typing against Moldy Moves. This restricts the useable Unaware users to Kyogre (loses to Sceptile and DAscent Ray), Chansey (loses to V-create and Superpower, also very passive), Arceus (loses to MMX, MMY, and Superpower), Audino (loses to MMY, Necrozma-Ultra, maybe MMX), Ho-Oh (loses to LO MMY, Stealth Rocks). There are some other useable Unaware mons but their overall viability is just inferior. Of the above Unaware mons, the only one that is actually a good set on its own is Unaware Kyogre, as running Unaware on the other mons has a significant opportunity cost to it (FC Chansey, using another mon not named Arceus such as Chansey, Bounce or PH Audino, MG or Bounce Ho-Oh). The fact that using an Unaware mon isn’t even enough for Contrary (all of the above mons are weak to some Contrary) shows how strong Contrary is (also they need to be extremely healthy to check). This of course isn’t even accounting for the opportunity cost of running an Unaware mon in the first place as Unaware isn’t as effective as Prankster at checking Shell Smash and Belly Drum.

Another method of checking Contrary is to use a RegenVester to tank hits and either removing the boosts with Spectral Thief or pivoting out to Imposter. The main ones that can actually do this are RegenVest Kyogre, RegenVest Dialga, and RegenVest Cresselia (others are weak to moves like Draco or Fleur). However, because of their lack of Unaware to ignore the boosts, they require a large amount of health to be able to check Contrary (see a pattern?), such as even Kyogre requiring minimum 94% to always avoid the 2HKO from MMY (and LO always 2HKOs). Furthermore, after taking a huge chunk of damage they can only recover 33% from Regenerator, meaning that they will be unable to come in the next time (Imposter will only force out the Contrary user into their Improof).

Checks that rely on advantageous typing and bulk to check Contrary, such as Flash Fire Steels, face a similar, if not bigger, problem compared to RegenVesters, which is that they struggle to recover the health lost and the high health requirement in the first place. If the Contrary user plays aggressively, then they could use a move to chip off like minimum 20% to your “check”, and force the 50/50 as to whether they are switching to a mon that threatens your “check” (such as PDon/Chomp on your FF Steel) or staying in and boosting. The first option wins if you click Spectral/Topsy, as you won’t be healthy enough the next time, while the second option wins if you click Recovery, as it will boost to unwallable levels. This 50/50 is lethal for you, but the worst result the opponent gets is getting their MMY taking a Spectral and losing like 40% of their health (Steels are really weak).

Imposter against a Contrary mon usually wins the 1v1, assuming they stay in and not make the smart play of going into the Improof. But even in this case it is not guaranteed, as a Dragon can carry that Sash and win the Speed tie on the second turn (or just unneeded if it is already boosted). Furthermore Imposter usually cannot switch-in safely, and if you can pivot it safely in you usually have an advantage anyways (which we see isn’t even a huge advantage in this case).

Lastly, Prankster Destiny Bond, IS NOT A CHECK. For just about any offensive mon that cannot OHKO your Prankster or finish it off with priority, you can say Prank DBond checks it, which is obviously true but at the same time a poor argument. Prank DBond is also full of 50/50s, and generally the risk is more on your side. Say you switch a Prankster Registeel into a Contrary MMY, and they click Overheat, and now you are on the brink of death. Do you click DBond anticipating them staying in, or click Recover anticipating them switching out into a mon that can KO you, removing your only check on the team against Contrary, forcing you to switch out, and fail to come in the next time even on a resisted move.

Of course, finally, Contrary also fares well against Spectral Thief, as the most common form of Contrary, special boosting Contrary (at most with Physical moves to assist and aren’t actually often clicked), doesn’t give the Spectral users immediately helpful boosts like Atk to boost damage, Def & SpD to tank the following hits, or Spe to try to outspeed the next turn.

Contrary’s low-risk high-reward

As we see from the above, Contrary is incredibly strong and difficult to check, which naturally brings the question of how do you improof Contrary, as Imposter does pretty good against Contrary in general. However, the Contrary user is the one selecting the moveset, and this allows him/her to modify the moveset to allow the team to have a sturdy improof. Or they could pick a wild improof that is hardly used at all but is very effective against their specific set. Examples are running Pixie Plate Judgment over Fleur Cannon on MMY to allow Mega Tyranitar to imposterproof or running FC Tapu Fini to improof some Ray or, as a combination of both, forgoing Psycho Boost on MMX to allow Arceus-Poison to improof (see ML’s team). The wide variety of different possible movesets for Contrary also means that they can run moves to circumvent typical checks while still being able to be imposterproofed because the user has all the information. Examples are running V-create on MMY to break past Unaware Chansey or running Superpower to break past the same mon and FF Steels. The result is that when defending against Contrary one has to consider all the possible sets, while the Contrary user is perfectly safe against your feeble attempts at countersweeping. Now this could be argued for other sets (such as the choice of coverage on SF MMY), but first those other sets are also top tier sets (SF MMY is a fantastic set on its own), and second they are generally easier to soft check (with Contrary attempts to soft check it just means you get sweeped).

TLDR

1. Contrary is broken because it has simultaneously the properties of a Wallbreaker and a Sweeper, giving it advantages of both while covering the disadvantages.
2. Contrary is ridiculously difficult to check.
3. Contrary can rip apart opposing teams while being relatively easy to improof compared to its strength.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Champion Leon]

I just wanted to reveal how powerful Contrary can be and how easily you can block all of the following “checks” - Topsy Turvey, Haze, Unaware, Priority, and Imposter while enabling a sweeper to end games:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-914064112

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-914032420

There was a Hax on a miss, but the point remains, how powerful it is.

MMY uses Photon for Unaware/Sturdy, Fleur for coverage vs Darks and Dragons (and the boosts), as well as Haze, and Imprison for both Imposter and Prankster Haze. Psychic Terrain supports both Photon Geyser, and blocks Priority including Prankster Topsy Turvy, and Encore.

While you could mention Unaware Solgaleo/Dusk-Mane would be ideal counters, they are rarely if ever used for Unaware, and would be handled by V-Create by a teammate, as the opportunity cost of not having Flash Fire is apparent.

While I did manage to Baton Pass Speed, overall, Comtrary can even handle its own checks, regardless, when supported by a Psychic Terrain, and is self-sufficient even against Imposter and Haze.

Core Enforcer and Spectral Thief can still threaten it, but Photon Geyser can be used when Core Enforcer has been activated, and Special Thief is still not helping against the boost from Mind Plate and Psychic Terrain. Plus, what will get an opportunity to survive and hit unless Focus Sash?

My teams are by no means standard for this type of sweeping, and is more or less just an example of maximizing one concept (Psychic Terrain) on a very specific strategic idea.

 

[Zovrah]

aight I dont know how to post

Figured since I probs wont be getting reqs due to, as usual, crippling lack of motivation, I figured was around time I say my thoughts on contra. Think I mighta only shared this with one person accidentally, but whatever.

I'm not sure I'm really able to say anything new here, but it's how I felt about contra going in and has really only been reinforced during.

So like, yknow how rn most people are super fed up with contra and think its broken and needs to go ASAP, while like one man stands alone with good reasons supporting being no-ban on contra (Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request))?

Yeah I'm on the side thats fed up with contra, I think it should go.

But can I say I think it's broken? Eh, not really

Personally, I think BH has been at a place where we can afford to suspect things that arent really broken and are instead annoying to the point of wide discontent in the community. I think BH has been at that spot since psurge was banned

Except for specs ate ray but we dont talk about that

I'll admit, the only example for this (that people would likely agree with anyway), is Sleep. Sleep, I don't believe, was broken. You could not slap sleep on a set and expect immediate positive results. Despite that though, it was annoying because of it had the potential to turn the tides of battles on its own. The RNG aspect of sleep was the cause of this, and why I think sleep sways on the line of too good and just good, making me classify it as something of an inbetween: a significant annoyance. If the rng of sleep was eliminated in any way, then in my mind it would clearly be on one side or the other of broken and just good. The examples I think are clear; guaranteed one turn sleep and its mediocre at best, guaranteed two and its good, guaranteed at three and its broken.

I feel that contrary also sways on that line.

I'm too lazy to type it out myself so I'll insert a screenshot quote of the only good person on the pro-ban side:


quick rundown bc I'm too lazy to properly note how each of these can fail and my usual methods of making others do it for my benefit has failed bc said "other" is equally as lazy:

1. imposter succeeds in forcing contrary out but often does little in the effort to beat it due to often taking 20-40% chunks of health switching into it meaning it cant consistently win
2. common prank users (main in mind rn are both dragons) kinda fucking die in the effort to topsy/glare the contra. while that does make it easier to handle, I dont feel you can consider it prep if most of the time youre sacking a mon in order to actually win. prank dbond as an argument in general is a joke imo, you can literally slap it anywhere. yea lad i coulda checked psurge if i just dbonded on the fucker couldnt I?
3. priority users have a tough time with breaking through boosts
4. some regenvest only applies to mmy, as all other contra users are mixed and will destroy said most vesters (dialga, ogre, registeel) Ray itself has a winning matchup against vest tina

So from what I've seen these simplified points above are what the proban side are using to say contras broken.

Honestly though, what I'm seeing is real similar to the antiban v proban sides in the sleep suspect. Antiban side is bringing up points that aren't bad. The things listed can work; the issue is that while the counterplay exists its not enough, because a single change of circumstance means that you still lose.

An argument I've seen from sl42 is that he doesnt see many if any good teams lose to contrary. To an extent, I agree.

And this is what I think is the key part of my reasoning here,

Good teams aren't losing to contrary

They are losing because of it

In every match I've lost that I felt I could pin on contrary, very very rarely was it because whatever contrary user was what swept me or whatever. It was because in the process of using the examples listed by sl above to beat the contrary user, I was left with pokemon too weak to sufficiently check what was left on the field. Another breaker would be present, and my check to it (likely the same thing that was used to check contra) is beaten because it is too worn down after beating the contrary user. And THAT is why I have stuck it in the same "significant annoyance" bag that I throw sleep into. It isn't out here winning games by itself, what was important is what it was paired up with. The inability to move for 3 consecutive turns could easily and often leave a pokemon open to cleaning by the threat using sleep. The means one goes to to beat contra can easily and often leave them open to cleaning by the next threat on the opponents team.

Idk how to end posts mates.

 

[Champion Leon]

I don’t know what to say about the post above.

I disagree because if you have say 3 Pokemon left, and your opponent has 3 Pokémon left (say 2 are Contrary), they may not have been sent out and thus cannot contribute to why you lost the previous 3 Pokémon on your team (say your foe’s Contrarians are Sceptile-Mega and Rayquaza-Mega and you have a Kyurem-Black with Refrigerate keeping them from sending either out earlier).

Contrarian is not necessarily a reason why people win, but it can independently become a reason why people win. Sleep is not comparable because there are actual preventions- Comatose, Poison Heal + Toxic Orb, Magic Bounce, etc.

You cannot prevent Contrary, because even if Kyurem-Black can KO Sceptile-Mega, what about what Sceptile-Mega can do to your other Pokémon?

You mentioned that Contrary weakens teams for other strategies to finish off your opponent, but what if other strategies weaken teams for Contrary to finish off your opponent? Such as inflicting Toxic on an Unaware, or Prankster Hazer, what if Contrary does not even need to weaken a team for the other strategies? What if Contrary wins by itself?

Contrary is one of the few things capable of stopping its checks with coverage moves. Does Prankster Haze Registeel plan to stop Sceptile-Mega with Haze? Well it will have to survive Overheat, and risk a Spore on the same turn Sceptile-Mega predicts Haze. Draco Meteor can hurt Zygarde and Giratina, and that super Effective hit alone can deter them all. Kyogre? Spore for RegenVest, and Leaf Storm on whatever safely pivots in Kyogre-Primal still gives it +2 SpA anyways. Unaware doesn’t like taking Leaf Storm with Life Orb either.

When Contrary causes a loss without reliance on team support, and strictly based on coverage moves on the same Pokémon using Contrary, that means it is self-sufficiently powerful.

Some strategies can be stopped, but the deadliest ones don’t need help to succeed. Contrary can be deadly and doesn’t have many of the limits other heavy offensive strategies face in order to achieve 1HKOs ( Adaptability / Sheer Force / Tough Claws Life Orb sets only boosts certain moves which can be low in base power (see Psychic, Spectral Thief, etc.). Contrary gets high powered moves with strong coverage on fast Pokémon that have next to zero drawbacks.

What stops Contrary from being banworthy? Is Contrary making teams weak before the battle even begins due to dedicated slots on your team for a a “Just in case” Pokémon (or two) in order to function? That alone is centralizing.

And even those don’t always work (there is no such universal Contrary answer because of the number of sets and Pokémon that can be strong Contrarians. Send in Ho-oh to stop Blaziken-Mega, but how do you stop Psycho Boost Mewtwo-Mega-Y? If you have Unaware you risk Stealth Rocks stopping your Defensive answer. Now because you had a “Just in case” answer to Contrary you lose 50% HP every time you cannot clear SR bc Contrary is too strong for the Defoggers, and conversely your answer to Contrary will faint after Stealth Rocks. Not only did you sacrifice Magic Guard for a more situational ability, but the situational ability actively prevents you from using it to be the Defensive Pokémon it is meant to be- as it lacks a hazards immunity).

Can you prevent Contrary? No. Can you prevent a Pokémon from using Contrary- perhaps some of them like with the Kyurem-Black example vs Sceptile-Mega and Rayquaza-Mega.
But what if it’s MMX with Superpower ready to KO Kyurem-Black with +Defense boosts along the way? Now you wish your Kyurem-Black was Rayquaza-Mega, but then Rayquaza-Mega doesn’t stop the Contrary MMY.

Too many things to prepare for leaves your team unprepared. If you cannot stop Contrary, as I have shown, it is centralizing to the point where even dedicating yourself to stopping it doesn’t. It only helps treat the problem, but doesn’t cure it, nor does it prevent it.

Comatose prevents sleep, and Sleep Clause treats Sleep from becoming an epidemic. Poison Heal, and Magic Bounce can cure it because they are on teams regardless of Sleep and function well for their own reasons- Boosting Facade, saving yourself a status move with Magic Bouncing your foe with their own move. Their own common presence cures the opposition from even considering Sleep moves in the first place.

What treats the Contrary problem? Only a ban? Likely.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

So i would like to address the post made above by Zovrah which is something to the effect of:

"Contrary isn't broken, it has checks. It is just annoying. We should only be focusing on banning things that are broken, not just things that annoy a lot of players. Sleep falls into this category of unnesseccary bans and I don't like the shift in the attitude towards bans in the community"
(hope I'm not misrepresenting this as it was kind of hard to tell whether you were pro ban or not)

I would like to start off by saying this. It is my opinion (I am not a BH leader and never will be so it doesn't matter much) that bans should reflect the overall will of the community. The people who play the game are the people who should decide what is allowed. This only makes sense to me. If something is universally hated and annoying, I really don't see any problem at all with banning it even if it has checks and isn't technically broken because the community has decided, as a whole, that they don't want to play with that thing anymore. The whole point of the game is to have fun, and if you have an ability or a mon that is draining fun for the entire community, that is grounds enough to ban it. (AGAIN OPINION) I have been fairly salty about several bans (illusion mostly but also pdon) and I think there are very good arguments to be made about how these threats aren't really uncheckable and therefore not bannable, but at the end of the day I realize that the will of the community has to come first. If the metagame didn't cater to its community then it would lose players and become a much less interesting place to be. (not really disputable in my opinion). So you can make up any list of ban requirement you want, but in the end, the power to incentivize players to play the game is what decides bans. Without players there is no game, so my opinion of the ban requirements for BH (over centralization etc.) is that they are just reasons made to justify bans without putting to fine a point on the real reason something was banned: being the community didn't like it.
I would like to point out that I have no problem with this and the power of incentives are an unavoidable fact of life. I just have never seen this argument presented here, and have always seen the ban requirements treated as gospel, which isn't really how any form of government works. No document decides the fate of a government, the government self defines based on the needs of its community. The constitution doesn't write laws, voters do, because actual lawmakers (congress in this example and e4 flint in the BH community) only derive their power from the people they represent. If they fail to represent these people then they don't last very long.

The second thing I would like to point out is I feel like contrary DOES beat good teams. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I would call myself a good player. I have recently been aiming for a 96.5% GXE (am currently at 96.1 (which I believe gives me the 5th highest current GXE on the entire site) and 95.5) so I have been laddering fairly frequently, and the only times I have lost on the ladder on those accounts have been to either smash or contrary. My team has 2 regenerators and is overall extremely bulky and yet I still manage to consistently lose to 1400 players with smash (and contrary). Again, this is not because I am a bad player, but because smash and contrary are fundamentally bad and unhealthy strategies.

Just a hot minute ago I lost to mother hate because of a contrary dialga. If dialga was some other mon, say specs ray, I am pretty sure I would have been alright. It's a little bit dicey because I still might have lost to spike pressure paired with moon blast but I would give myself above a 50% chance of being able to drain xern's pp and then hp drain the teams recovers with things like beak blast and spikes. We will however, never know, because despite having a very bulky team I still got swept by contrary.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-918350736

I would like to add that this isn't the only instance of something like this happening, just a replay I happened to save just recently. There have been many many times in which something similar has happened to me. These experiences, along with my general feeling that we should follow the will of the community, have pretty easily convinced me that contrary doesn't really have the checks people claim it does, and should be banned. And smash. Please ban smash

 

[Greenheroes]

ok i'm not gonna comment on contrary here but this is just a false statement. first of all, stall isn't even that good, and it's not commonly used on ladder either. i would say that only 10-15% of the teams i run into on ladder really qualify as stall, most have at least some offensive pressure on them. and even when i do run into stall, very rarely is it actually built or used in a competent way, so in general it's not that hard to beat.

if we're talking about dead alts on ladder, attributing every one of them to people not liking the meta is quite a stretch. people stop playing games for all sorts of reasons. instead of looking at the people who have stopped playing, look at those who are actively complaining about the meta...and you arrive here, where people who are familiar with the meta think that contrary is overwhelming.

a couple other things:
1) contrary is actually more annoying for offense than for other playstyles as Willdbeast pointed out on discord, it's really annoying to revenge kill especially factoring in v create while balance/stall have the room to run more stable counterplay like fc and unaware chansey, imposter, regenvest, and other unaware users.
2) prank encore registeel might be the worst contrary mmx counter i have ever seen

honestly i would say that if balance/stall is really such a problem in your eyes, then make a post on why and/or how it should be dealt with, instead of just passive aggressively bringing it up when the main point is something else. get replays featuring it and show how easily it is to succeed with it. now that's a post i'd like to see.

well offense in BH now run solid counter plays, and look like balances, else get destroyed.

 

[DarkRisingRay]

I know its probably been said but I'm not an active community member and I'd like to share my limited personal views on contrary and why it should be banned.

1. Being a very active player on the ladder, I've come across almost every single viable set on the meta and while my uttermost disdain for imposter is known, I've had the most concern for contrary. It seems to auto win with almost no effort. I've had to resort to using dumb things like banded first impression on the psychic & grass "contrarians" or my new fav fc yveltal for the physical "contrarians" or use prank dbond when things get too out of hand.
2. Contrary has a way of removing their checks from the equation with a very high success rate due to the high bp moves being fired with stab &/or life orb boosts.
3. Contrary mixed with sleep or nuzzle support is just a recipe for an rng disaster of epic proportions

But what makes it bannable.

"Splashable"ility:
Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard

Examples: Sceptile, mmy, MMX, quaza, necrozma ultra, kyurem, diancie, arceus etc

Extreme Augmentation:
The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

Example: The difference between shell smash n contrary moves is that with shell smash you lose a turn giving momentum to your opponent to either counter you or haze u out. But with contrary you keep hitting and hitting while either ur attacking stats increase drastically or your defenses get so bulky, you're nigh impossible to take down.

My observation was that imposter was really the only true counter to contrary while everything else just hopes it can't be 2khoed before spectral stealing the stats or turning the stats upside down.
But as of 2019, that's not the case as scarf, random improofs and min defensive stats makes it easier to play around and beat imposter.

Thanks for the read.

 

[pazza]

idk why ppl say contray is so hard to check lmao just use scarf chansey or chansey with evio and dont be like 'oH nOW i gOTOa rUN chNASEY on ALl my TEAMS" its not like you weren't gonna run chansey anyway

oh but wait they have an imposter proof!!! that means contray is wall able :O


contray isn't really splashable
"Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard"
ok let me run contray on my chansey with toxic sub protect recover. boom so broken lmao

contray isn't splashable u have to run moves like psycho boost, draco metor, super power, vcreate and also have to bring op mons like mmy,diancie,kyub,mmx,scept,ray.


no contray doesn't beat good teams. if its a good team you need to have a check for literally everything in the meta including contray.
don't blame the team for losing vs contray if its a good team blame the player :^)

 

[Champion Leon]

idk why ppl say contray is so hard to check lmao just use scarf chansey or chansey with evio and dont be like 'oH nOW i gOTOa rUN chNASEY on ALl my TEAMS" its not like you weren't gonna run chansey anyway

oh but wait they have an imposter proof!!! that means contray is wall able :O


contray isn't really splashable
"Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard"
ok let me run contray on my chansey with toxic sub protect recover. boom so broken lmao

contray isn't splashable u have to run moves like psycho boost, draco metor, super power, vcreate and also have to bring op mons like mmy,diancie,kyub,mmx,scept,ray.


no contray doesn't beat good teams. if its a good team you need to have a check for literally everything in the meta including contray.
don't blame the team for losing vs contray if its a good team blame the player :^)

I agree that it’s about the player not the team. I have defeated teams specifically designed to counter mine due to sheer skill, including in tournament settings.

I think the focus on Contrary is how centralizing it is.
Also, there are ways to handle Imposter, using Spore + Safety Goggles/Poison Heal + Lovely Kiss, Imprison, Anchor Shot stalling, and having Toxic Spikes work on most teams.

Imposter also can be worn down bc whatever is used to slowly pivot in the Imposter takes a hit, and if that gets worn down enough it may cause you to switch Imposter directly in, and thus the Imposter gets worn down. If they have an Imposterproof, then your Imposter forced a switch, but lost HP due to hazards, or taking the move on the switch in the first place.

You are delaying the inevitable sweep, but have you completely beat it? If people are planning in some way to “handle Imposter” which isn’t on every team, (mine for example), but on most teams (admittedly), that means Imposter can literally be planned for because it is based on your own team. The only guessing is if they have Eviolite or Scarf (Pikachu is like 1/1000).

If people have to plan for Contrary, which is not on every team, and with having the option for 2 Contrarians, and you won’t know which ones they will pick, you cannot therefore plan for them all.

If you have Contrarians you can change your Imposterproof accordingly, you can for example have an Unaware Arceus to handle MMY with Psycho Boost, Fleur Cannon, V-Create and Moongeist Beam, now Imposter isn’t strong enough without Life Orb to break it.

You can map out Imposter bc your team makes Imposters’ Set, so if Imposter is the biggest Check, but it’s success hinges on how teams don’t plan for it, then you could argue that a good Imposterproof Contrary team with a good player will win against a good players team that uses Imposter to win. Thus, saying Imposter exists doesn’t prevent Contrary from being broken. Contrary is centralizing, bc teams have to plan for it, even when it isn’t being used as commonly as things like Imposter which is on 80%+ of teams.

 

[Greenheroes]

I know its probably been said but I'm not an active community member and I'd like to share my limited personal views on contrary and why it should be banned.

1. Being a very active player on the ladder, I've come across almost every single viable set on the meta and while my uttermost disdain for imposter is known, I've had the most concern for contrary. It seems to auto win with almost no effort. I've had to resort to using dumb things like banded first impression on the psychic & grass "contrarians" or my new fav fc yveltal for the physical "contrarians" or use prank dbond when things get too out of hand.
2. Contrary has a way of removing their checks from the equation with a very high success rate due to the high bp moves being fired with stab &/or life orb boosts.
3. Contrary mixed with sleep or nuzzle support is just a recipe for an rng disaster of epic proportions

But what makes it bannable.

"Splashable"ility:
Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard

Examples: Sceptile, mmy, MMX, quaza, necrozma ultra, kyurem, diancie, arceus etc

Extreme Augmentation:
The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

Example: The difference between shell smash n contrary moves is that with shell smash you lose a turn giving momentum to your opponent to either counter you or haze u out. But with contrary you keep hitting and hitting while either ur attacking stats increase drastically or your defenses get so bulky, you're nigh impossible to take down.

My observation was that imposter was really the only true counter to contrary while everything else just hopes it can't be 2khoed before spectral stealing the stats or turning the stats upside down.
But as of 2019, that's not the case as scarf, random improofs and min defensive stats makes it easier to play around and beat imposter.

Thanks for the read.

Or you can use unaware mega audino to check contraries like mega rayquaza, which run moongeist beam because they more often spam draco meteor because of MMX and giratina, than starting to set up physically with superpower and v create, while still living pretty well the last ones:

Pop Team Epic (Audino-Mega) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Topsy-Turvy
- Strength Sap
- Baton Pass
- Spectral Thief

252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 199-235 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

you switch on a DM or slow pivot, steal it's boost/sap it to steal more attack and recover, then pass the boosts to cue the most epic reverse sweep ever, if the ray try to set up physically, you just become bulkier and live more hits, you can always try to hard on an imposter in case you suspect it could carry sunsteel strike, and take nothing, without any risk, who would Draco Meteor a fairy, honestly.
Also if you run yourself a contrary ray, this set is a nice improof as well.

If you wonder about the other contraries, an imposter alone can defeat all of them.

Edit: the fact prankster haze exist in stall and in offense to handle set up makes contrary legitimately healthy for the meta, otherwise it's a PP war, also flash fire steels can be efficients MMY contrary checks, and destiny bond from a prankster haze mon still stop balances with a contrary inside, due to a lack of other set ups.

 

[Rumors]

If you wonder about the other contraries, an imposter alone can defeat all of them.

Not true.

-Contrary can sacrifice a moveslot for Imprison to beat Imposter and (some) opposing Contrary. Imposter only wins 50% of the time if it switches in on the same turn as Contrary switches in.

--Imprison + U-Turn on a Contrary set is probably a dumb idea, but it prevents checks from being safely slow-pivoted in, including Imposter.

-Contrary can run Safety + Spore to beat Imposter. Works better on physical Contrary since Superpower is easier to protect oneself with for this.

-Contrary can run status + Lum if it can survive one of its own attacks to cripple Imposter with burn or paralysis for later in the match. Or nail with Toxic to put it on a timer.

-Contrary can run Scarf + EV/IV/Hazard manipulation to guarantee a OHKO on certain sets from base damage. +2 is trivial. (Ray can do this, Kartana can trivially,, M.Diancie can run Sunsteel for this, etc.)

-See last point, but Focus Sash.

-Contrary can simply set up a Substitute before Imposter switches in. Even if Imposter manually swaps into the move, it's at a disadvantage.

-Contrary can use some unusual self-Imposterproofing tactics with Judgement* and such. Like, Fleur Cannon/Judgement Gengar will OHKO Imposter at +3-4 without any EV jiggering and will survive. Contrary Gengar is valid, but definitely unusual.

-Probably the biggest point, but Imposter cannot directly switch into most Contrary sets, since that'll put it on the back foot in terms of boosting and it'll also often take a big hit doing so.

-Imposter losing its item makes it much more likely for Imposter to lose the match-up.

-If Contrary manages to secure a number of boosts under its belt, Imposter's odds often come out to 50/50 at best against most sets.

*Speaking of Judgement/Multiattack, a Contrary could get clever to run those moves to allow themselves to beat certain opponents while Imposter gets walled. For example, Contrary Blaze with Super Power/V-Create/Ghost Multi-Attack with an FF Aegilash or a Giratina on the team. Doesn't directly defeat Imposter, but it's not something that's often mentioned.



Yeah, in an ideal situation where Imposter pivots in on the same turn a standard Contrary comes in or only gets one attack off, Imposter either usually wins or has a good chance. But a little set tweaking and/or a little bit of clever play can nullify that easily.

...which is really true for most (all?) Contrary checks/counters. The defending player needs to devote an entire set to checking a given handful of Contrary, but the attacking player only needs to adjust a move or item or sometimes use an unusual Pokemon (like motherhate's Dialga in the replay above) for the job to beat the defending set. EG: Your Audino set gets beaten if Ray decides to run Taunt, Encore, Entrainment, Spore, or Sunsteel Strike.

 

[Greenheroes]

Not true.

-Contrary can sacrifice a moveslot for Imprison to beat Imposter and (some) opposing Contrary. Imposter only wins 50% of the time if it switches in on the same turn as Contrary switches in.

--Imprison + U-Turn on a Contrary set is probably a dumb idea, but it prevents checks from being safely slow-pivoted in, including Imposter.

-Contrary can run Safety + Spore to beat Imposter. Works better on physical Contrary since Superpower is easier to protect oneself with for this.

-Contrary can run status + Lum if it can survive one of its own attacks to cripple Imposter with burn or paralysis for later in the match. Or nail with Toxic to put it on a timer.

-Contrary can run Scarf + EV/IV/Hazard manipulation to guarantee a OHKO on certain sets from base damage. +2 is trivial. (Ray can do this, Kartana can trivially,, M.Diancie can run Sunsteel for this, etc.)

-See last point, but Focus Sash.

-Contrary can simply set up a Substitute before Imposter switches in. Even if Imposter manually swaps into the move, it's at a disadvantage.

-Contrary can use some unusual self-Imposterproofing tactics with Judgement* and such. Like, Fleur Cannon/Judgement Gengar will OHKO Imposter at +3-4 without any EV jiggering and will survive. Contrary Gengar is valid, but definitely unusual.

-Probably the biggest point, but Imposter cannot directly switch into most Contrary sets, since that'll put it on the back foot in terms of boosting and it'll also often take a big hit doing so.

-Imposter losing its item makes it much more likely for Imposter to lose the match-up.

-If Contrary manages to secure a number of boosts under its belt, Imposter's odds often come out to 50/50 at best against most sets.

*Speaking of Judgement/Multiattack, a Contrary could get clever to run those moves to allow themselves to beat certain opponents while Imposter gets walled. For example, Contrary Blaze with Super Power/V-Create/Ghost Multi-Attack with an FF Aegilash or a Giratina on the team. Doesn't directly defeat Imposter, but it's not something that's often mentioned.



Yeah, in an ideal situation where Imposter pivots in on the same turn a standard Contrary comes in or only gets one attack off, Imposter either usually wins or has a good chance. But a little set tweaking and/or a little bit of clever play can nullify that easily.

...which is really true for most (all?) Contrary checks/counters. The defending player needs to devote an entire set to checking a given handful of Contrary, but the attacking player only needs to adjust a move or item or sometimes use an unusual Pokemon (like motherhate's Dialga in the replay above) for the job to beat the defending set. EG: Your Audino set gets beaten if Ray decides to run Taunt, Encore, Entrainment, Spore, or Sunsteel Strike.

check your usages, I only see ray with a nerfed spdef be used among all of these.
Generally the odds of imposter not beating a contrary is a critical hit or a miss.
Substitutes waste your initial momentum and let something with spectral thief or core enforcer screw your set up (yes core enforcer effect goes through sub and spectral thief as well)
That doesn't make less a threat prankster destiny bond against contrary, while the same prankster can carry haze for other set ups
Spore died after the sleep clause
running encore, taunt, entrainment or other shenanigans imply you lack superpower/v create/draco meteor, and as I said, sunsteel strike let the imposter tear apart any self proof you should have to be sure a chansey won't reverse sweep you.
I admit moves like judgment can give some sort of selfproof by providing a super effective coverage that chansey can't have, but that's removing an important boosting move (for MMY fleur cannon psycho boost or overheat, 4th slot could be it, but that leaves you hamopeless against shedinja/chansey depending if you pick that one or moongeist beam
Kartana contrary, big nope holding v create and superpower is suicide against an imposter due to a lack of HPs, maybe it could surprise someone expecting steelworker, but that's it.
I've seen some mega diancie contrary, but very low and most didn't carry sunsteel strike at all but had superpower, v create, fleur cannon and overheat/moongeist beam, holding sunsteel strike doesn't prevent chansey from getting them, neither they do enough damages to unaware mega audino, if compared to ray contrary's calcs
Imprison is only a thing with transform this gen, so imprison+contrary, I don't think so, maybe imprison+d bond could be tried, but as I said earlier, contrary has a restricted moveset, so does prankster, just to be effective.

 

[Rumors]

Usages aren't everything. If you prepare only for usages then you only need to encounter one unusual set you didn't prepare for to lose a tournament or get set back several games on your ladder climb. It also only takes one popular player using an "unusual set" to make it popular and rock the usages and standard sets. (I mean, a few months ago people considered Ho-Oh to be D-rank garbage until someone was like "hey this is actually pretty good.)

Either way, the point isn't the things are common or that Contrary can run them with no consequence. They're small tweaks Contrary can put into their sets to beat Imposter if it so desires. They lose functionality elsewhere, sure, but they're gonna curbstomp you if you just wander into battles thinking "Contrary is no problem and is totally fine so long as I have my trusty Imposter."

Regardless, just because Imposter can force a lot of standard Contrary sets to either switch or take a gamble doesn't mean Contrary is perfectly fine and absolutely no problem. I mean, are we really expected to run both Unaware Audino and Imposter on every single team just to cover all the possible currently standard Contrary sets?

 

[Champion Leon]

I think it is important to review what sets can be considered Imposterproof.

For example, if we have a

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Judgment
- V-create
- Moongeist Beam

We know you can Imposterproof with an Unaware-Tyranitar Mega, and dent the Imposter with STAB Pursuit.

Here the MMY can break past Unaware/Sturdy with Moongeist, or Psycho Boost past weaker Unawares like Audino-Mega, unless they have Leftovers.

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 190-225 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 190-225 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And cannot be stalled out due to using a Plate instead of Life Orb (no recoil).

Sure Imposter can come in and use V-Create if it predicts a switch to Tyranitar-Mega but Unaware bypasses Defense boosts and Pursuit still deals noticeable damage. Suddenly, it is a liability to switch Imposter in, unless you switch out Imposter when you predict Tyranitar-Mega will come in (but that also means the MMY could predict you won’t keep Imposter in and just decide to not switch out MMY and sweep your Tyranitar-Mega check).

Overall, it just seems like Imposter is based on the hunch you will outspeed with a Speed tie and that you can keep sending it in.

252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Eviolite Chansey: 230-272 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO

So I made Pursuit 80 Base power to showcase the damage on the switch. I gave Chansey a Hasty Nature to mimic MMY.
Now keep in mind; that is with an Eviolite, here is the Scarf calc-

252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Chansey: 342-404 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

What Imposter can really stop your Contrary? Your Imposter delayed a sweep but did it prevent it from just coming in again? Did it take damage on the switch in (hazards, attacks)? Did it take a hit before the switch out via Pursuit?

These are the risks of relying on Imposter.

And in case someone thinks I forgot to adjust the Imposter Chansey Defense, here is a Screenshot -


P.S. if you remove all of the Def EVs and IVs Tyranitar-Mega can 1HKO Scarf Chansey and 2HKO Eviolite Chansey

252+ Atk Dread Plate Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 744-876 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Dread Plate Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Chansey: 494-584 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While I don’t recommend making your Tyranitar-Mega Adamant or hold a Dread Plate, if you want to truly Imposterproof MMY this is one way to do it. Further; while I wouldn’t suggest lowering Defense IVs (due to opposing Priority moves), V-Create boosts will more than make up for that and your MMY is now not afraid of Imposter for the rest of the match.

For my argument, let’s stick with just the Hasty Nature and Max IVs, but bear in mind that if a team wants to be completely Imposterproof to their own Contrary, it isn’t too hard.