BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

I think it is important to review what sets can be considered Imposterproof.

For example, if we have a

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Judgment
- V-create
- Moongeist Beam

We know you can Imposterproof with an Unaware-Tyranitar Mega, and dent the Imposter with STAB Pursuit.

Here the MMY can break past Unaware/Sturdy with Moongeist, or Psycho Boost past weaker Unawares like Audino-Mega, unless they have Leftovers.

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 190-225 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 190-225 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And cannot be stalled out due to using a Plate instead of Life Orb (no recoil).

Sure Imposter can come in and use V-Create if it predicts a switch to Tyranitar-Mega but Unaware bypasses Defense boosts and Pursuit still deals noticeable damage. Suddenly, it is a liability to switch Imposter in, unless you switch out Imposter when you predict Tyranitar-Mega will come in (but that also means the MMY could predict you won’t keep Imposter in and just decide to not switch out MMY and sweep your Tyranitar-Mega check).

Overall, it just seems like Imposter is based on the hunch you will outspeed with a Speed tie and that you can keep sending it in.

252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Eviolite Chansey: 230-272 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO

So I made Pursuit 80 Base power to showcase the damage on the switch. I gave Chansey a Hasty Nature to mimic MMY.
Now keep in mind; that is with an Eviolite, here is the Scarf calc-

252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Chansey: 342-404 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

What Imposter can really stop your Contrary? Your Imposter delayed a sweep but did it prevent it from just coming in again? Did it take damage on the switch in (hazards, attacks)? Did it take a hit before the switch out via Pursuit?

These are the risks of relying on Imposter.

And in case someone thinks I forgot to adjust the Imposter Chansey Defense, here is a Screenshot -
0E382ADF-1644-41C3-9C08-6D91B3680539.png

P.S. if you remove all of the Def EVs and IVs Tyranitar-Mega can 1HKO Scarf Chansey and 2HKO Eviolite Chansey

252+ Atk Dread Plate Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 744-876 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Dread Plate Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Chansey: 494-584 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While I don’t recommend making your Tyranitar-Mega Adamant or hold a Dread Plate, if you want to truly Imposterproof MMY this is one way to do it. Further; while I wouldn’t suggest lowering Defense IVs (due to opposing Priority moves), V-Create boosts will more than make up for that and your MMY is now not afraid of Imposter for the rest of the match.

For my argument, let’s stick with just the Hasty Nature and Max IVs, but bear in mind that if a team wants to be completely Imposterproof to their own Contrary, it isn’t too hard.
 
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Niche contrary sets and wonky strats aside. That Audino set is just plain bad. Strength Sap as only recovery is far from reliable, especially on a non-threatening set like this.
The only thing that set can pretend to do is loosely check a specific set from the least popular of the main three contrary mons when hazards aren't up.
It doesn't even perform the main "Unaware Audino" functions that well.

You have a set that's potentially not complete ass in like 2 games of the 30 you might play, and complete deadweight for all the other games. The best thing with that set is that even in the matchup it was designed for it performs poorly.

You didn't solve contrary.
 
If I may, I would like to suggest the banning of Imposter. This may be controversial, but let me explain my viewpoint here a little bit. Imposter does have some ways to counteract it. Let's look at how you can counter Imposter-Chancey with eviolite, which is currently the most used form of this that I see, with very few others. You can use imprison on yourself, you can anchor shot it to keep it from switching, you can PP stall them, you can use substitute before it enters, and you can throw 'mons at them until you beat it, but each of these has their problems, and many require extreme build arounds, to the point of needing an entire pokemon entirely dedicated to beating this. Now, you can still beat it, but if it is something where you have to run an entire counter pokemon, and/or your own Imposter, it seems like it should be removed.

Now, I know this might still seem like it still doesn't require banning, but let's take a look at another banning, one that just occurred, Contrary. Contrary was extremely powerful, but there were also still ways to counter it. You could use imposter, you could use Topsy-Turvy or haze alongside prankster, you could use focus sash and spectral thief, and more, and many of these didn't require complete build-arounds on a pokemon, as they were useful against other pokemon, because a lot of pokemon use stat boosts. So, if you look at these 2 side by side, Imposter seems to be just as ban-worthy as Contrary, in my opinion anyway. You don't have to agree with me, but please give your opinions either way. Thank you.
 
They're too very different beasts. Imposter you can be 95% prepared for before you even look for a battle as the only thing you need to guess at is the item it'll use, which'll be Eviolite 90% of the time with the occasional Scarf, Lucky Punch, Spooky Plate, or Blissey with Leftovers. Imposter's sets will always be the same and you'll know them at team preview because they're your own sets, and you can spot Imposter in team preview super reliably. (It's Chansey, Blissey, Pikachu, or its probably bad.)

Contrary, on the other hand, could be any offensive mon on the team and can run a variety of sets to counter their would-be checks. For example, you bring Haze, they bring Taunt. You bring Spectral Thief, they bring Entrainment. You bring Unaware Audino, they switch from Moongeist to Sunsteel Strike. You bring Imposter, they imposter-proof themselves. It wasn't entirely predictable and Contrary exerted huge pressure just by existing, where as Imposter you can just switch to your proof and only need to worry about losing momentum if the set they copied had U-Turn.

Imposter is strong, yeah, and it can be played well, but it's the most predictable opponent in BH. I'd rather face two Imposters than two Pokemon I actually need to scout.
 
If I may, I would like to suggest the banning of Imposter. This may be controversial, but let me explain my viewpoint here a little bit. Imposter does have some ways to counteract it. Let's look at how you can counter Imposter-Chancey with eviolite, which is currently the most used form of this that I see, with very few others. You can use imprison on yourself, you can anchor shot it to keep it from switching, you can PP stall them, you can use substitute before it enters, and you can throw 'mons at them until you beat it, but each of these has their problems, and many require extreme build arounds, to the point of needing an entire pokemon entirely dedicated to beating this. Now, you can still beat it, but if it is something where you have to run an entire counter pokemon, and/or your own Imposter, it seems like it should be removed.

Now, I know this might still seem like it still doesn't require banning, but let's take a look at another banning, one that just occurred, Contrary. Contrary was extremely powerful, but there were also still ways to counter it. You could use imposter, you could use Topsy-Turvy or haze alongside prankster, you could use focus sash and spectral thief, and more, and many of these didn't require complete build-arounds on a pokemon, as they were useful against other pokemon, because a lot of pokemon use stat boosts. So, if you look at these 2 side by side, Imposter seems to be just as ban-worthy as Contrary, in my opinion anyway. You don't have to agree with me, but please give your opinions either way. Thank you.
imo ur just not informed about anything in the meta nor do i think u play enough bh at a casual level to realize that the core problems contrary had on every aspect of bh.

r u really going to bring up imposter at this point of the metagame, why do people keep on bringing up elements like "so why is X banned and not Y"
have u not learnt anything at all

do me and everyone a favor and read this
Imposter is one of the few things in BH that you have a near 100% expectation of what you'll be facing because you design the set. The only variation is the amount of HP and the item. Imposter-proofing ("Improofing") is woven into the entire experience of BH and the power of imposter is entirely dependent on your own teambuilding.
Taking advantage of Judgment, Illusion, uncommon hard-counters to sweepers, trapping via Anchor/Waves and even its limited 20 pp movepool are all common and valid strategies.
OFC THEY WERE WAYS TO STOP CONTRARY.
THEY WERE MANY WAYS TO STOP Extreme Evoboost,Water Bubble,Protean,Psychic Surge,Gengarite/Magnet Pull and literally every broken shit out there. everything in every metagame can be stopped. if all we do is talk about how contrary can be stopped and not look at the EFFECT it had on the previous meta, we would be no where. this goes for every single meta out there. i can go on and on and on about how balanced water bubble is and how easy it is to stop extreme evoboost, but where does that lead, nothing. its not the point

when it come to Contrary, it was very very unexplored and no one had no idea what potential this ability had, until everyone started to realize that "wait why is my counter not working anymore", "why am i still losing to contrary with 3 hard counters", "why are my unawares being 2hko'd"
it got to a point where everyone (i mean top players) realized that this ability is just too much
i may be coming off as rude but this is getting too repetitive and this post should be deleted, it doesnt contribute anything to the thread or anyone. going in depth on this is pointless, its banned. lets focus on the new meta at hand
 
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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

bh's very own pseudo-intellectual
is a Community Contributor
aight i'll respond. got sniped by 2 people but both of those posts were kinda :pikuh:

first of all, let's go over the counterplay to imposter you listed:
You can use imprison on yourself, you can anchor shot it to keep it from switching, you can PP stall them, you can use substitute before it enters, and you can throw 'mons at them until you beat it
imprison is bad
anchor shot pp stall is a pretty good option on defensive mons
substitute is inconsistent
throwing mons at imposter should only happen if your team is severely weakened/the imposter proofer is gone. if you are losing like this your team lacks cohesion

others you didn't mention: poison heal, plate judgment, weird z moves like outrage/focus punch/freeze shock, sash on frail mons that hit themselves super hard, unburden can all beat imposter well

many require extreme build arounds, to the point of needing an entire pokemon entirely dedicated to beating this.
there are still mons that have synergy with your guy that handle imposter as well. mega diancie + ff registeel for example is cool because regi shuts down giga drain triage ray, which gives diancie trouble. kartana + slowbro is cool because slowbro can uturn on mans to bring kartana back in, and also bro counters primal groudon. far from being "dedicated" to beating imposter these mons are pretty good in their own right.

this works for offense too. once i had this squad with life orb bolt strike fakespeed kyurem b, imposter proofed by dazzling shift gear arrows/z outrage chomp, imposter proofed by simple shell smash magearna. (to kill chomp they had to lock themselves into outrage) the team was pretty cool and capable of breaking most defensive teams.

basically imposter doesn't force you to compromise the overall idea of your team, because of how many different options you have to counter your own set. some mons are more restrictive with who can beat imposter (like kanga) but this is balanced out by how these mons can put in lots of work vs the opposing team as well (kanga is a super good wallbreaker)
You bring Unaware Audino, they switch from Moongeist to Sunsteel Strike.
bruh just switch to unaware cress then don't see the problem
 
If I may, I would like to suggest the banning of Imposter. This may be controversial, but let me explain my viewpoint here a little bit. Imposter does have some ways to counteract it. Let's look at how you can counter Imposter-Chancey with eviolite, which is currently the most used form of this that I see, with very few others. You can use imprison on yourself, you can anchor shot it to keep it from switching, you can PP stall them, you can use substitute before it enters, and you can throw 'mons at them until you beat it, but each of these has their problems, and many require extreme build arounds, to the point of needing an entire pokemon entirely dedicated to beating this. Now, you can still beat it, but if it is something where you have to run an entire counter pokemon, and/or your own Imposter, it seems like it should be removed.

Now, I know this might still seem like it still doesn't require banning, but let's take a look at another banning, one that just occurred, Contrary. Contrary was extremely powerful, but there were also still ways to counter it. You could use imposter, you could use Topsy-Turvy or haze alongside prankster, you could use focus sash and spectral thief, and more, and many of these didn't require complete build-arounds on a pokemon, as they were useful against other pokemon, because a lot of pokemon use stat boosts. So, if you look at these 2 side by side, Imposter seems to be just as ban-worthy as Contrary, in my opinion anyway. You don't have to agree with me, but please give your opinions either way. Thank you.
Imposter is a broken mechanic but won't be banned because the "Balanced Hackmons" format isn't actually predicated on balance itself. There simply aren't enough users on this thread to make objective decisions, and the people that are here have known each other for over 4 years, so there's a high susceptibility to "bandwagoning", which, in a small environment like this, is omnipotent.

Imposter is certainly overpowered, but its also the narrative; to the people that play this format, Imposter is the "glue" that holds everything together. It gives them a sense of identity and distinction among both the standard formats and the Other Metas proper. Challenging Imposter isn't simply a challenge to such, but to this entire community. You are challenging them, their ideologies, and their identity. "Balanced Hackmons is a bulky pivot metagame", and anytime this narrative is threatened, bans are enacted to ensure the narrative sticks. The same applies with Imposter, and in this sense, going for a ban is the best you could hope for, because if this gets suspected, the bandwagoning I mentioned earlier will ensure it stays around.

Calcs
(Stats and typing adjusted to mirror Mega Mewtwo X's)
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 179-213 (25.4 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Chansey Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 208-246 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Stats and typing adjusted to mirror Mega Rayquaza's)
252 SpA Life Orb Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Eviolite Chansey: 266-316 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Aerilate Chansey Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 307-363 (74.1 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Stats and typing adjusted to mirror Mega Mewtwo Y's)
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 138-164 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Chansey Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 206-244 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Know that you have my support, and take what you will from this post, but don't bother replying to it, because like a Phantom, I'm out.
 
Imposter is a broken mechanic but won't be banned because the "Balanced Hackmons" format isn't actually predicated on balance itself. There simply aren't enough users on this thread to make objective decisions, and the people that are here have known each other for over 4 years, so there's a high susceptibility to "bandwagoning", which, in a small environment like this, is omnipotent.

Imposter is certainly overpowered, but its also the narrative; to the people that play this format, Imposter is the "glue" that holds everything together. It gives them a sense of identity and distinction among both the standard formats and the Other Metas proper. Challenging Imposter isn't simply a challenge to such, but to this entire community. You are challenging them, their ideologies, and their identity. "Balanced Hackmons is a bulky pivot metagame", and anytime this narrative is threatened, bans are enacted to ensure the narrative sticks. The same applies with Imposter, and in this sense, going for a ban is the best you could hope for, because if this gets suspected, the bandwagoning I mentioned earlier will ensure it stays around.

Calcs
(Stats and typing adjusted to mirror Mega Mewtwo X's)
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 179-213 (25.4 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Chansey Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 208-246 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Stats and typing adjusted to mirror Mega Rayquaza's)
252 SpA Life Orb Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Eviolite Chansey: 266-316 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Aerilate Chansey Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 307-363 (74.1 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Stats and typing adjusted to mirror Mega Mewtwo Y's)
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 138-164 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Chansey Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 206-244 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Know that you have my support, and take what you will from this post, but don't bother replying to it, because like a Phantom, I'm out.
If it gets suspected, then the decision won’t be left to bandwaggoning. The decision would fall to the players good enough to make reqs. If the players that are good enough to do so primarily believe that imposter is balanced, then it likely is. Your calcs don’t mean much at all because they act like improofing isn’t a thing. Imposter is basically just used for scouting if your team is well enough improofed, and there are even some sets that trap imposters for even trying to come in on them. Imposter is not even slightly broken, you just can’t build teams well enough to deal with it
tldr: just improof lol
 
i see why people dont take these threads seriously.
theres so much wrong with ur opinion that, its just bad,wrong and ur just not informed about anything in the meta nor do i think u play bh at a casual level to realize that the core problems contrary had on every aspect of bh.

r u really going to bring up imposter at this point of the metagame, why do people keep on bringing up elements like "so why is X banned and not Y"
have u not learnt anything at all

do me and everyone a favor and read this


OFC THEY WERE WAYS TO STOP CONTRARY.
THEY WERE MANY WAYS TO STOP Extreme Evoboost,Water Bubble,Protean,Psychic Surge,Gengarite/Magnet Pull and literally every broken shit out there. everything in every metagame can be stopped. if all we do is talk about how contrary can be stopped and not look at the EFFECT it had on the previous meta, we would be no where. this goes for every single meta out there. i can go on and on and on about how balanced water bubble is and how easy it is to stop extreme evoboost, but where does that lead, nothing. its not the point

when it come to Contrary, it was very very unexplored and no one had no idea what potential this ability had, until everyone started to realize that "wait why is my counter not working anymore", "why am i still losing to contrary with 3 hard counters", "why are my unawares being 2hko'd"
it got to a point where everyone (i mean top players) realized that this ability is just too much
i may be coming off as rude but this is getting too repetitive and this post should be deleted, it doesnt contribute anything to the thread or anyone. going in depth on this is pointless, its banned. lets focus on the new meta at hand
ok, look. I'm just gonna say this once, then I'm gonna drop this whole thing, and we can move on from this. I'm not trying to say that contrary shouldn't have been banned. I'm just trying to draw a comparison from my viewpoint, to show why I, as a fairly new player in this format, feel that, in this new meta, that Imposter is too dominant. I think that in this mess that you posted you have some good points, but that you also seem to be misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I Thank everyone else who has replied so far, as they at least tried to give a courteous response explaining their opinions. Now, I would also like to say one last thing. I know that counters for Imposter are a thing, and I do know of several of them, but part of what I want to mention here, is that I am a fairly new player in this format, and it is hard for me to understand or be able to successfully execute a counter. This is a problem, as it means that the set that I previously mentioned is dominating the lower elos where less people are able to successfully counter them, and seems to me like a large problem, so I just wanted to show my what it is like from my perspective. Thank you.
 
ok, look. I'm just gonna say this once, then I'm gonna drop this whole thing, and we can move on from this. I'm not trying to say that contrary shouldn't have been banned. I'm just trying to draw a comparison from my viewpoint, to show why I, as a fairly new player in this format, feel that, in this new meta, that Imposter is too dominant. I think that in this mess that you posted you have some good points, but that you also seem to be misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I Thank everyone else who has replied so far, as they at least tried to give a courteous response explaining their opinions. Now, I would also like to say one last thing. I know that counters for Imposter are a thing, and I do know of several of them, but part of what I want to mention here, is that I am a fairly new player in this format, and it is hard for me to understand or be able to successfully execute a counter. This is a problem, as it means that the set that I previously mentioned is dominating the lower elos where less people are able to successfully counter them, and seems to me like a large problem, so I just wanted to show my what it is like from my perspective. Thank you.
Yeah, the concept of improofing can be a bit confusing at first, but let me try to give an example for you. Let’s say you have a Primal Groudon and imposter switches in. You’re running ground coverage so you aren’t self improof, and you need a way to beat the imposter. You can use something like Fur Coat zygarde to switch in whenever Imposter takes your Groudon. That way, Imposter gets Walled out. This concept of improofing is crucial to teambuilding in Bh and is one of the main things to set it apart, so I’d definitely recommend mastering it as soon as you can. Stuff like this is what makes Imposter able to be dealt with. You already know all the sets that they’re gonna be using against you, so you know how to deal with it properly as well.
 
PhantomVortex Imposter is "broken" in the sense that it is over-centralizing. But it's not overpowered. I mean, if you banned every mon in BH except those in standard PU and Imposter Chansey, then Chansey wouldn't be all that much stronger in that meta than it is now, relatively speaking. It'd be harder to KO due to lower power stats, but it'd also suffer from the meta's... lower stats.


The whole "it''s the glue that holds the meta together" argument though is kind... I don't feel its accurate. If we got rid of Imposter, nothing would rampage out of control, HO wouldn't take over the meta, or any hysterical claims. We have plenty of other tools, as evidenced by tournaments where Imposter was banned.

...plus, the "it's the glue" argument isn't really valid in a suspect discussion.


And mind, not everyone against an Imposter ban loves it or worships it or whatever. I, for example, dislike Imposter and rarely ever use it, a fact both opponents and myself tried to exploit back when I could participate in tournaments. I, personally, would rather it gone, along with a lot of other things. But, by the current standards for suspecting, it's not suspect-worthy.


SmartTJ "Improofing" is a skill you have to learn for BH, yes. Mind though, it's not a BH exclusive skill as it'll help you in any Imposter-legal meta, like standard OU. It's just, unlike most metas, it's not a skill you can ignore. And even if we banned Imposter, you'd still have to worry about (Imprison +) Transform. When team building, just think about how you'd beat your own sets. For example, if you have Ground/Fairy Boomburst Pixilate Diancie, you could run like... Celesteela to stop it. Or Soundproof Yveltal. Or things along those lines, who'll have the advantage of dealing with opposing Diancies of the same vein.

Team building is tricky in BH, but what you learn here helps a looot for team building in other metagames.
 
ok, look. I'm just gonna say this once, then I'm gonna drop this whole thing, and we can move on from this. I'm not trying to say that contrary shouldn't have been banned. I'm just trying to draw a comparison from my viewpoint, to show why I, as a fairly new player in this format, feel that, in this new meta, that Imposter is too dominant. I think that in this mess that you posted you have some good points, but that you also seem to be misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I Thank everyone else who has replied so far, as they at least tried to give a courteous response explaining their opinions. Now, I would also like to say one last thing. I know that counters for Imposter are a thing, and I do know of several of them, but part of what I want to mention here, is that I am a fairly new player in this format, and it is hard for me to understand or be able to successfully execute a counter. This is a problem, as it means that the set that I previously mentioned is dominating the lower elos where less people are able to successfully counter them, and seems to me like a large problem, so I just wanted to show my what it is like from my perspective. Thank you.
I agree that the post you made was responded way too harshly by someone.

I think for them, every so often a new person makes the same claim that Imposter is to be banned, and people forget that a different person did that and they treat it as if they are repeating themselves to the same person.

It’s not you. It’s not your fault.

Anyways, I think the points made have clarified why Imposter is to stay. And quite frankly if anyone else comes here to make the same claim that it should be banned, it will be Gen 8 and we will have a completely different metagame, as the Nintendo Direct mentioned it is not including Megas and Z-Moves. This ultimately means we won’t even have the same strategies or Pokémon forms available to us. If Imposter cannot copy Dynamax then we are in for a completely different counter to sweepers as Dynamaxing is going to be non-Imposterable.

Anyways. I am glad people took the time to explain and we can all move forward. You are not wrong for finding out why, but it may be best to read prior discussions on a thread this long bc if you use the search tool in the top right corner to find Imposter discussion in this same thread, the answers there can avoid harsh reactions.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
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Just to quickly address something, even though this thread is not the best medium to discuss Gen 8, but BH will only be impacted if it is found that the games literally cannot support previous gen mons, moves, abilities, Megas or anything, which is a subtle but significant difference from what’s currently being reported. This can ultimately only be confirmed if the games are found to not support them even when hacked.

Also it is not confirmed anyway whether ditto is in the new games meaning there might not be imposter at all if the above is true.
 
Just to quickly address something, even though this thread is not the best medium to discuss Gen 8, but BH will only be impacted if it is found that the games literally cannot support previous gen mons, moves, abilities, Megas or anything, which is a subtle but significant difference from what’s currently being reported. This can ultimately only be confirmed if the games are found to not support them even when hacked.

Also it is not confirmed anyway whether ditto is in the new games meaning there might not be imposter at all if the above is true.
I agree. I just meant that since they did confirm Mew (from the Pokeball Plus) which does learn Transform in Let’s Go at Level 99, it can be a mechanic equal to Imposter in function. The Pokémon Bank and Home accessories and service allow transfers of Mew to Sword and Shield.
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

bh's very own pseudo-intellectual
is a Community Contributor
i dont know why we decided to ban contrary but either way since we have reached a new circle of bh hell, i figured i'd bring up some more potentially suspect worthy things to maybe get some discussion going.


i think that mega rayquaza, as a mon, is broken. while there are some ray sets that are perfectly fine in the bh meta, such as mixed aerilate and some tamer triage variants, i think that this mon is pushed over the edge mainly by the specs aerilate and cb tc sets. these two sets mostly function on the same principle, that being spamming broken flying moves to not only kill mons but gain momentum on the ones that don't die. even if youre able to switch in on cb dragon ascent (and don't lose your mon to a coverage move in the process), you're forced to recover while the ray user just switches in someone else. this feels like a really unfair mechanic to me.

another issue that i see with ray is just how few counters it has. the specs set can 2hko many less bulky steels like steela, gear, ttar, and even aegi, and "resists" like fc chans and registeel can easily be bypassed with minor chip damage such as a single layer of spikes. soundproof can be used but i'd say that it's at one of its worst spots right now, with audino nowhere to be seen and zyg inconsistent as a counter. the cb set is a bit easier to switch into with prank sap and fc, but at the same time it can threaten to ohko more mons with its coverage moves (steels die very easily to cc or even horsepower)

because of this, ray has an insanely good matchup against slower offensive mons that die to boomburst/ascent. it effortlessly forces out mons like regi/slaking, ph xern/garde, pdon, and kartana. these teams are forced to use inconsistent and often incredibly passive means of counterplay (looking at registeel, chans, soundproof here) which makes them generally worse, and i think this is a problem.


species clause is also something that might be necessary for the growth of bh. lemme just say this right now, spam teams are uncompetitive. i say this because they collapse easily if you have the right matchup, but if you don't your team just gets overwhelmed. another problematic thing is that guessing sets is almost impossible, giving the spam user a huge advantage in game because if the other player slips up, they can die to a coverage move, get shell smashed on, etc. overall spam is just not fun to use or to play against and i dont think we should have to put up with it any longer.


i think shed should be suspected before the end of the gen, for a few reasons.

first of all, i think there's a problem with how consistent shedinja has been over the course of the gen. three (3) separate shed teams (crusher, rout, penguin) have achieved near unparalleled consistency. this is symptomatic of a few traits that shed brings to a team.

shed's near perfect control of the hazard game is one of the factors that make fighting it so difficult. rocks shed alone gets hazards in an insane amount of matchups already, and magic bounce ghosts, the only mons that can hope to block it, are an easy obstacle to overcome with a spikes setting teammate. shed will also be using magic bounce on its team, which can potentially mean that the opposing player is unable to set hazards at all depending on the specific matchup. these things mean that more often than not, the shed user can comfortably set hazards against the opposing team while preventing them from safely setting hazards in return, so the opponent has a limited amount of time to play aggressively, unlike against conventional stall teams. shed's ability to kill pokemon with endeavor compounds this issue.

additionally, shed's ability to absolutely shut down all pokemon that can't touch it is a problem. it can straight up get momentum on even offensive mons that don't specifically have a coverage move for it (talking stuff like diancie, sf mmy, some rays, pdon), removing the need for its teammates to deal with them. these pokemon are effectively completely worthless as long as shed is alive with no hazards, with their only benefit being to potentially draw in shed for a teammate, but that brings me to my next point:

one of the biggest strengths of shed teams is their ability to scout and make midground plays, which can give them information and make them generally extremely hard to take advantage of. for example, if shed comes in on any offensive mon that doesn't kill it on the switch (most non choice mons do this), they're pressured to either click the mold breaker move or switch out immediately. because of the insane risk/reward factor involved, they're heavily incentivized to play their hand right away so as not to risk losing their mon to shed or letting rocks go up. this makes switching into shed, then going into a different mon to scout for sunsteel an incredibly favorable setup for shed teams. the other player is forced to make a super risky play to make any progress in the game, assuming they can even break the mon shed goes into (which can be imposter, a mon basically impossible to break without specific, obvious mons).

overall, i would say that shed has repeatedly proven itself to be a problematic mon even when paired with other pokemon that are clearly not broken. because of this, i really think it warrants at least a suspect.

other things that i would prefer gone are drum (wins or loses on matchup, little to no legitimate competitive use for this) and sleep (why do we still have this???? literally just a way for sweepers to attempt to cheese their way through would be checks, except it only works some of the time), but those are less problematic in my opinion. thank u all for reading.
 
While I doubt if the statement was serious, I don’t feel Belly drum should be suspected/gone. The risk / reward of it are able to negate each other. Belly Drum is typically paired in 3 scenarios- Unburden (Kartana/Dusk-Mane), Dazzling (Slaking), and Triage (Heracross). The latter two are rare, and Unburden is not as reusable compared Shell Smash/Quiver Dance/Tail Glow is, because even with the Sitrus Berry healing you, you cannot use Unburden once you switch out, leaving you slower than others unless you resort to Priority attacks like Bullet Punch (not usually worth it on any set besides maybe Steelworker Kartana).

Triage can kind of work because it is reusable due to healing and going first, but Heracross has to survive the turn it uses Belly Drum and the set up can be a burden bc the most common user of Prankster Haze is Giratina, which resists or is immune to all of Horn Leech, Drain Punch, and Leech Life.

Belly Drum doesn’t have a risk free reward like Contrary once did. Belly Drum takes a turn, a move, and a very specific ability to make it worthwhile, in addition to typically only working 1x or 2x per game.
Unaware can be a huge issue against Heracross and Slaking, while notably Kartana, (but less so) Dusk-Mane fear Priority attacks, such as Triage Rayquaza with Oblivion Wing, or Drain Punch from its Shell Smash mixed variant.

Belly Drum is a rare move already, I think if it were too strong a move that needs to be gone it would have been better used over the past three years since Gen 7 started.
..,other things that i would prefer gone are drum (wins or loses on matchup, little to no legitimate competitive use for this) and sleep (why do we still have this???? literally just a way for sweepers to attempt to cheese their way through would be checks, except it only works some of the time), but those are less problematic in my opinion. thank u all for reading.
 
Disagree, Belly Drum is insanely uncompetitive and should go ASAP.
SL said this really well because it is just really dumb and has next to no competitive use.
Most importantly, BellyBurden is dumb because it mandates the use of a Prankster. While Prankster is really good on its own, the mandating of it by something that isn't even good and is just a cheesy strat that relies on the Prankster being removed is dumb. Furthermore, removing Belly Drum isn't even that impactful because of how actually bad it is.
Just a quick reply to this I have some opinions on the other discussed stuff and will make a post later.
 
Disagree, Belly Drum is insanely uncompetitive and should go ASAP.
SL said this really well because it is just really dumb and has next to no competitive use.
Most importantly, BellyBurden is dumb because it mandates the use of a Prankster. While Prankster is really good on its own, the mandating of it by something that isn't even good and is just a cheesy strat that relies on the Prankster being removed is dumb. Furthermore, removing Belly Drum isn't even that impactful because of how actually bad it is.
Just a quick reply to this I have some opinions on the other discussed stuff and will make a post later.
Totally respect your opinion, as it is typically used by lower ladder, but there are more ways around it than just Prankster, Fur Coat, Focus Sash, Sturdinja, and Unaware.

Imposter can work on non-Unburden variants, Spectral Thief can be used (especially if scouting has been done) on anything besides Slaking, Priority as I mentioned in my last post can also work.

And let’s be honest, most Belly Drum loses to Giratina which can pack Prankster, Fur Coat, or Unaware all quite well- Heracross will be Spectraled without KOing Giratina, Slaking will be Core Enforcered and is reliant on Spectral Thief which doesn’t outspeed Haze, nor does it threaten Unaware, and Kartana / Dusk-Mane fear Spectral Thief/Core Enforcer removing their boosts or ability if they are in when Giratina is in. Giratina, unless not one of the aforementioned abilities above (such as Poison Heal), alone is a deterrent, and if it is in the turn they happen to Belly Drum Spectral Thief is a risk to handle on their setup turn.

I think Belly Drum can be discouraged by checking it once, such as with Giratina, and if they have to switch out, it is much harder to repeat at lower HP.

Lastly, Triage Heracross and Dazzling Slaking are blocked by Queenly Majesty/Dazzling (and Normal-Types like Arceus block even Spectral Thief)
Again, Belly Drum is not used often, and is a high-risk, High-reward.

To compare Sitrus Berry Unburden Belly Drum to White Herb Simple Shell Smash, and you have a move that can help physical, mixed, and special sweepers abuse attacks like Power Trip, and Stored Power which can inadvertently workaround Unaware, and simply set-up again when Hazed. Shell Smash may be more of a threat when combined with Simple, as it can be harder to handle bc more Pokémon can use it, including slower Pokémon, plus with White Herb you can keep your bulk.

I don’t even think Simple Shell Smash is too much, I just think Belly Drum is even less of a threat due to its limitations in placement on a team and that if Shell Smash is manageable, so is Belly Drum.
 
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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

bh's very own pseudo-intellectual
is a Community Contributor
Totally respect your opinion, as it is typically used by lower ladder, but there are more ways around it than just Prankster, Fur Coat, Focus Sash, Sturdinja, and Unaware.

Imposter can work on non-Unburden variants, Spectral Thief can be used (especially if scouting has been done) on anything besides Slaking, Priority as I mentioned in my last post can also work.

And let’s be honest, most Belly Drum loses to Giratina which can pack Prankster, Fur Coat, or Unaware all quite well- Heracross will be Spectraled without KOing Giratina, Slaking will be Core Enforcered and is reliant on Spectral Thief which doesn’t outspeed Haze, nor does it threaten Unaware, and Kartana / Dusk-Mane fear Spectral Thief/Core Enforcer removing their boosts or ability if they are in when Giratina is in. Giratina, unless not one of the aforementioned abilities above (such as Poison Heal), alone is a deterrent, and if it is in the turn they happen to Belly Drum Spectral Thief is a risk to handle on their setup turn.

I think Belly Drum can be discouraged by checking it once, such as with Giratina, and if they have to switch out, it is much harder to repeat at lower HP.

Lastly, Triage Heracross and Dazzling Slaking are blocked by Queenly Majesty/Dazzling (and Normal-Types like Arceus block even Spectral Thief)
Again, Belly Drum is not used often, and is a high-risk, High-reward.

To compare Sitrus Berry Unburden Belly Drum to White Herb Simple Shell Smash, and you have a move that can help physical, mixed, and special sweepers abuse attacks like Power Trip, and Stored Power which can inadvertently workaround Unaware, and simply set-up again when Hazed. Shell Smash may be more of a threat when combined with Simple, as it can be harder to handle bc more Pokémon can use it, including slower Pokémon, plus with White Herb you can keep your bulk.

I don’t even think Simple Shell Smash is too much, I just think Belly Drum is even less of a threat due to its limitations in placement on a team and that if Shell Smash is manageable, so is Belly Drum.
the problem with drum in my eyes is that yeah, it's pretty easy to shut down, but you need the right methods of counterplay or you just lose the game.

if you dont have prankster or something weird like the triage yveltal set, you lose to unburden drum.

if they have drum + priority, your prank user can lose depending on the specific priority move chosen, even if he is at full health. dazzling is usually bad unless ur running offense.

if you need your mon to check someone else, they can force you out with specific dudes even if u do have spectral, like say drum mmx setting up on ogre.

compare this to stuff like simple smash (loses to priority, imposter, prank, and even unaware), unburden smash (much easier to check defensively), and speed boost setup (also easy to check defensively) which will likely have solid counterplay on any decent team.

don't get me wrong, drum is usually easy to counter and is not that good in general. it's not broken. my issue with it is that it can outright beat otherwise fine teams with the right matchup, which makes it uncompetitive in my opinion.
 
Totally respect your opinion, as it is typically used by lower ladder, but there are more ways around it than just Prankster, Fur Coat, Focus Sash, Sturdinja, and Unaware.

Imposter can work on non-Unburden variants, Spectral Thief can be used (especially if scouting has been done) on anything besides Slaking, Priority as I mentioned in my last post can also work.

And let’s be honest, most Belly Drum loses to Giratina which can pack Prankster, Fur Coat, or Unaware all quite well- Heracross will be Spectraled without KOing Giratina, Slaking will be Core Enforcered and is reliant on Spectral Thief which doesn’t outspeed Haze, nor does it threaten Unaware, and Kartana / Dusk-Mane fear Spectral Thief/Core Enforcer removing their boosts or ability if they are in when Giratina is in. Giratina, unless not one of the aforementioned abilities above (such as Poison Heal), alone is a deterrent, and if it is in the turn they happen to Belly Drum Spectral Thief is a risk to handle on their setup turn.

I think Belly Drum can be discouraged by checking it once, such as with Giratina, and if they have to switch out, it is much harder to repeat at lower HP.

Lastly, Triage Heracross and Dazzling Slaking are blocked by Queenly Majesty/Dazzling (and Normal-Types like Arceus block even Spectral Thief).

Again, Belly Drum is not used often, and is a high-risk, High-reward. But compare Sitrus Berry Unburden Belly Drum to White Herb Simple Shell Smash, and you have a move that can help physical, mixed, and special sweepers abuse attacks like Power Trip, and Stored Power which can inadvertently workaround Unaware, and simply set-up again when Hazed. Shell Smash may be more of a threat when combined with Simple, as it can be harder to handle bc more Pokémon can use it, including slower Pokémon, plus with White Herb you can keep your bulk.
most variants of belly drum you've discussed aren't really relevant: the specific sets that sl42 is talking about are belly drum + unburden steels, particularly kartana and dusk-mane. these sets are imposter-proof once they set up, are unwallable at +6 thanks to stab sunsteel, and have the bulk and typing to handle most common priority. if they're able to set up (which isn't too difficult; kartana forces a lot of switches, and dusk-mane can bluff a defensive set) and the opponent doesn't have a prankster, they often just win on the spot. if they do have a prankster, and switch to something that isn't the prankster on the turn the drummer sets up, it usually gets a guaranteed kill. drum is overall pretty bad; it's very high risk, extremely high reward. the argument is that it's uncompetitive because of how it often just wins games for free if they don't have a prankster or once the prankster dies, and that the way it forces most balance teams to run prankster is unhealthy for the metagame

the main difference between these and things like simple shell smash is that unburden drum is imposterproof and far better against priority
 
most variants of belly drum you've discussed aren't really relevant: the specific sets that sl42 is talking about are belly drum + unburden steels, particularly kartana and dusk-mane. these sets are imposter-proof once they set up, are unwallable at +6 thanks to stab sunsteel, and have the bulk and typing to handle most common priority. if they're able to set up (which isn't too difficult; kartana forces a lot of switches, and dusk-mane can bluff a defensive set) and the opponent doesn't have a prankster, they often just win on the spot. if they do have a prankster, and switch to something that isn't the prankster on the turn the drummer sets up, it usually gets a guaranteed kill. drum is overall pretty bad; it's very high risk, extremely high reward. the argument is that it's uncompetitive because of how it often just wins games for free if they don't have a prankster or once the prankster dies, and that the way it forces most balance teams to run prankster is unhealthy for the metagame

the main difference between these and things like simple shell smash is that unburden drum is imposterproof and far better against priority
I guess. I think my comparison with Simple Smash was with White Herb, which means that compared to Belly Drum, you are able to take more hits, and you can use Special Attacks in addition to, or instead of, physical Attacks, making it harder to predict what the Sweeper on their team will be, such as Tyranitar-Mega with Power Trip which is less common that it’s other sets, and can use that surprise as a way to set up, whereas if someone has Kartana you know it will either be Steelworker or Unburden most of the time.
———
compare this to stuff like simple smash (loses to priority, imposter, prank, and even unaware), unburden smash (much easier to check defensively), and speed boost setup (also easy to check defensively) which will likely have solid counterplay on any decent team.
Shell Smash with White Herb won’t lose to Priority as easily as Belly Drum with Sitrus Berry because the only disadvantage is removed with the item, and the same Pokémon that use Unburden can use Simple (the advantage would be having the ability to survive more without compromised bulk, and re-usability).

Simple Smash doesn’t lose to Unaware because of Power Trip, unless they also resist Dark, such as the aforementioned Tyranitar-Mega, which is immune to Prankster like Topsy Turvey, Encore, etc., plus what is stopping certain users from packing a Moldy move as well? Shell Smash Tyranitar can pack Sunsteel, to handle the Unaware Fairies and Shedinja that feel safe vs Power Trip.

Simple Necrozma-Dusk Mane is even listed in the Setpedia for its Transformation set that lets it use Simple, then Ultra Form when Imposter comes in, using Speed EV adjustments it will outspeed Scarf Imposter once it transforms, as it isn’t as obvious as Mega Evolving since Dusk-Mane is fairly common in BH on its own anyways.

Anyways, I totally agree that Belly Drum is dangerous, but I wanted to point out that there are methods of blocking it besides Prankster, especially on stuff like Triage Heracross-Mega and Dazzling Slaking which can be blocked by Dazzling.

Plus for Priority, since Kartana can be KOed by Triage Rayquaza Oblivion Wing, at near perfect health, even if Kartana had Extreme Speed it would still lose, let alone if it didn’t have any Priority at all:

252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 320-376 (99.3 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

And that’s without even using a Modest Nature, and before any setup move on Rayquaza’s part, and without having to wait for Belly Drum to reduce Kartana to 75% after Sitrus Berry.

As for Sunsteel Strike Unburden on Dusk-Mane, we can agree it can take more hits.

The thing about Belly Drum is that if Giratina is already in battle, most users would fear Spectral or Haze, and most Giratina without Haze can still pack Spectral Thief.

TLDR- Yes Belly Drum is primarily on Dusk-Mane and Kartana Unburden.
But compared to the more versatile Simple White Herb Shell Smash, it is more predictable and cannot be exploited as frequently during a match as the Unburden set requires sacrificing HP and not being able to switch out in order to remain Imposterproof.

And let’s look at some good Imposterproof examples of Simple Smash:

Shell Smash, Secret Sword, Boomburst, Judgment @ Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega.
Imposter cannot threaten it, it can maintain strong coverage, bypass Substitutes, threaten Giratina even if it is Hazed.

If you needed to break Unaware and use a Moldy move, Moongeist Beam could replace Judgment, and White Herb could replace Spooky Plate to handle more Priority from Diancie-Mega, and Triage Rayquaza-Mega.

For the Simple Necromza-Dusk Mane Set, that Ultra Transforms, it could use Photon Geyser to have the Z-move after it transforms, while still gaining STAB and bypassing the Unaware foes.
 
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Hey, Sunsteel Belly Drum is making the rounds again! You know, if we dealt with Mold Breaker moves, it'd make abilities that counter Belly Drum and some other degenerate set-up strategies much more viable. Like, you know, Unaware that would utterly ignore such moves in most conditions or Sturdinja could actually be used to block attacks from set-up users.

I'll just paste these links to these old posts again, mostly relevant save points about Contrary.

Here is the original post I made explaining why moldy moves are problematic in general. (Although, I'll admit in that post, on a claim why Shell Smash was chosen, I neglected speed of set-up.)

And here's a lengthy response going into detail on a number of anti-set-up options that flounder because of moldy moves.


I still feel this is the better option than just bopping set-up moves and abilities one by one (although Contrary needed the boot sooner or later anyway). But if people just really really really really really want to go for Belly Drum then, well... whatever I guess. Nintendo might be hard banning all this junk in a few months anyway.
 
I guess. I think my comparison with Simple Smash was with White Herb, which means that compared to Belly Drum, you are able to take more hits, and you can use Special Attacks in addition to, or instead of, physical Attacks, making it harder to predict what the Sweeper on their team will be, such as Tyranitar-Mega with Power Trip which is less common that it’s other sets, and can use that surprise as a way to set up, whereas if someone has Kartana you know it will either be Steelworker or Unburden most of the time.
Simple Smash with White Herb loses to Imposter.
Surprise factor is something that can be argued for every offensive mon, this is BH.
Shell Smash with White Herb won’t lose to Priority as easily as Belly Drum with Sitrus Berry because the only disadvantage is removed with the item, and the same Pokémon that use Unburden can use Simple (the advantage would be having the ability to survive more without compromised bulk, and re-usability).
You are going to tell me that Simple Smash Kartana should be used over BellyBurden Kartana and that Simple Smash Dusk-Mane is better than BellyBurden Dusk-Mane.
Re-usability is non-existent because once someone knows your set they are never letting you setup. Your White Herb is also one-use.
The advantage is doing less damage and losing Imposter.
Simple Smash doesn’t lose to Unaware because of Power Trip, unless they also resist Dark, such as the aforementioned Tyranitar-Mega, which is immune to Prankster like Topsy Turvey, Encore, etc., plus what is stopping certain users from packing a Moldy move as well? Shell Smash Tyranitar can pack Sunsteel, to handle the Unaware Fairies and Shedinja that feel safe vs Power Trip.
You gonna tell me that BellyBurden loses to Unaware now.
Prankster Haze still beats you and no one would use any other Prank move on a Dark type.
Its Topsy-Turvy not Topsy Turvey
Unaware Fairies are not a thing.
Simple Necrozma-Dusk Mane is even listed in the Setpedia for its Transformation set that lets it use Simple, then Ultra Form when Imposter comes in, using Speed EV adjustments it will outspeed Scarf Imposter once it transforms, as it isn’t as obvious as Mega Evolving since Dusk-Mane is fairly common in BH on its own anyways.
"Also need to mention that citing Setpedia isn't very helpful for an argument when that thing compiles basically every usable set and can have sub-optimal movesets." - Chessking345, March 26, 2019, BHCR Thread.
At this point why not argue something and bring up RegenVest Hoopa-U.
Anyways, I totally agree that Belly Drum is dangerous, but I wanted to point out that there are methods of blocking it besides Prankster, especially on stuff like Triage Heracross-Mega and Dazzling Slaking which can be blocked by Dazzling.
"most variants of belly drum you've discussed aren't really relevant: the specific sets that sl42 is talking about are belly drum + unburden steels, particularly kartana and dusk-mane. " - MAMP, literally the response post right before your post. Please read.
Plus for Priority, since Kartana can be KOed by Triage Rayquaza Oblivion Wing, at near perfect health, even if Kartana had Extreme Speed it would still lose, let alone if it didn’t have any Priority at all:

252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 320-376 (99.3 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

And that’s without even using a Modest Nature, and before any setup move on Rayquaza’s part, and without having to wait for Belly Drum to reduce Kartana to 75% after Sitrus Berry.

As for Sunsteel Strike Unburden on Dusk-Mane, we can agree it can take more hits.
Ill give you this part ig.
The thing about Belly Drum is that if Giratina is already in battle, most users would fear Spectral or Haze, and most Giratina without Haze can still pack Spectral Thief.
Because everyone sets up on something they can't threaten out and always carries Spectral or Core.
TLDR- Yes Belly Drum is primarily on Dusk-Mane and Kartana Unburden.
But compared to the more versatile Simple White Herb Shell Smash, it is more predictable and cannot be exploited as frequently during a match as the Unburden set requires sacrificing HP and not being able to switch out in order to remain Imposterproof.
Simple Smash is not more versatile, not less predictable, is also one use, and loses to Imposter.
And let’s look at some good Imposterproof examples of Simple Smash:

Shell Smash, Secret Sword, Boomburst, Judgment @ Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega.
Imposter cannot threaten it, it can maintain strong coverage, bypass Substitutes, threaten Giratina even if it is Hazed.

If you needed to break Unaware and use a Moldy move, Moongeist Beam could replace Judgment, and White Herb could replace Spooky Plate to handle more Priority from Diancie-Mega, and Triage Rayquaza-Mega.

For the Simple Necromza-Dusk Mane Set, that Ultra Transforms, it could use Photon Geyser to have the Z-move after it transforms, while still gaining STAB and bypassing the Unaware foes.
Of all the great abilities you can run on Smash Gar you suggest Simple which adds nothing and rather makes it so you cannot run Poison STAB reliably. 10/10 job.
If there is one mon that needs to be banned in BH, then it would be Mega Ray.
But I am not entirely sold that it requires to be banned. I haven't come up with why exactly but I'll add on some negative sides of Mega Ray.
Mega Ray is nearly impossible to check without knowing the set, and this distinguishes from MMY and MMX. Its ability to run sets that attack on both spectrums extremely hard is what makes it so dangerous. Its unique STAB is what further makes it dangerous, as resists are more easily smacked by coverage. (That are strong af).
Compared to MMY, stuff like Cresselia and Solgaleo and Dusk-Mane can generally scout/check most MMY sets.
Compared to MMX, stuff like Cresselia, Giratina, and MegaBro can generally scout/check most MMX sets.
Imposter also generally has an easier time switching in against the Mewtwos.
Rayquaza has like, Multitype Eleceus as the best scouter LOL. Even 4x resists like Stakataka just die to 4x SE Coverage and stuff like regular Steels die to one of the Fighting, Ground, and Fire coverage. Your special wall does so great until it gets bopped by Band DAscent. Your FC Slowbro did great but he clicked Boomburst or Tail Glow.
It also has a better matchup against Imposter because of the STAB weakness and the exploitable 4x weakness.
Only thing that drags it down is the unfortunate speed tier.
Yes please. Don't need aids 6x Spam teams.
Going to add on how Shed basically mandates a Ghost on the team unless you are running Moldy Pursuit or Weather.
This is problematic because there aren't a whole lot of great ghosts in the meta. You are basically limited to Giratina, Gengar, Aegi, and your own Shed. All these Ghosts have some problems.
Giratina is great role compression and all but its skyhigh usage causes teams to prep for it heavily. In addition, its somewhat Imposter bait.
Gengar generally lacks recovery, cannot usually threaten Shed unless its Mold Breaker or Moongeist, and thus is vulnerable to being chipped down.
Aegislash is an unmon that dies to everything.
This makes prepping for Shed a huge pain because of the limitations on teambuilding and the following improofing after the Ghost is added.
Thanks for reading.
 
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When someone starts arguing against something because it hurts his legendary DAZZLING SLAKING set rather than for the greater good of the metagame.
And when someone starts arguing that it shouldn't be banned because it is comparable to something that isn't remotely similar.
And when someone once again ruins a perfectly good post that should lead to great discussion (this sounds familiar).
And when someone angry reacts your post as a method of revenge because you angry reacted his post because its bad.
Seems like this someone should be infracted and their posts deleted lol.

Simple Smash with White Herb loses to Imposter.
Surprise factor is something that can be argued for every offensive mon, this is BH.

You are going to tell me that Simple Smash Kartana should be used over BellyBurden Kartana and that Simple Smash Dusk-Mane is better than BellyBurden Dusk-Mane.
Re-usability is non-existent because once someone knows your set they are never letting you setup. Your White Herb is also one-use.
The advantage is doing less damage and losing Imposter.

You gonna tell me that BellyBurden loses to Unaware now.
Prankster Haze still beats you and no one would use any other Prank move on a Dark type.
Its Topsy-Turvy not Topsy Turvey
Unaware Fairies are not a thing.

"Also need to mention that citing Setpedia isn't very helpful for an argument when that thing compiles basically every usable set and can have sub-optimal movesets." - Chessking345, March 26, 2019, BHCR Thread.
At this point why not argue something and bring up RegenVest Hoopa-U.

"most variants of belly drum you've discussed aren't really relevant: the specific sets that sl42 is talking about are belly drum + unburden steels, particularly kartana and dusk-mane. " - MAMP, literally the response post right before your post. Please read.

Ill give you this part ig.

Because everyone sets up on something they can't threaten out and always carries Spectral or Core.

Simple Smash is not more versatile, not less predictable, is also one use, and loses to Imposter.

Of all the great abilities you can run on Smash Gar you suggest Simple which adds nothing and rather makes it so you cannot run Poison STAB reliably. 10/10 job.
If there is one mon that needs to be banned in BH, then it would be Mega Ray.
But I am not entirely sold that it requires to be banned. I haven't come up with why exactly but I'll add on some negative sides of Mega Ray.
Mega Ray is nearly impossible to check without knowing the set, and this distinguishes from MMY and MMX. Its ability to run sets that attack on both spectrums extremely hard is what makes it so dangerous. Its unique STAB is what further makes it dangerous, as resists are more easily smacked by coverage. (That are strong af).
Compared to MMY, stuff like Cresselia and Solgaleo and Dusk-Mane can generally scout/check most MMY sets.
Compared to MMX, stuff like Cresselia, Giratina, and MegaBro can generally scout/check most MMX sets.
Imposter also generally has an easier time switching in against the Mewtwos.
Rayquaza has like, Multitype Eleceus as the best scouter LOL. Even 4x resists like Stakataka just die to 4x SE Coverage and stuff like regular Steels die to one of the Fighting, Ground, and Fire coverage. Your special wall does so great until it gets bopped by Band DAscent. Your FC Slowbro did great but he clicked Boomburst or Tail Glow.
It also has a better matchup against Imposter because of the STAB weakness and the exploitable 4x weakness.
Only thing that drags it down is the unfortunate speed tier.
Yes please. Don't need aids 6x Spam teams.
Going to add on how Shed basically mandates a Ghost on the team unless you are running Moldy Pursuit or Weather.
This is problematic because there aren't a whole lot of great ghosts in the meta. You are basically limited to Giratina, Gengar, Aegi, and your own Shed. All these Ghosts have some problems.
Giratina is great role compression and all but its skyhigh usage causes teams to prep for it heavily. In addition, its somewhat Imposter bait.
Gengar generally lacks recovery, cannot usually threaten Shed unless its Mold Breaker or Moongeist, and thus is vulnerable to being chipped down.
Aegislash is an unmon that dies to everything.
This makes prepping for Shed a huge pain because of the limitations on teambuilding and the following improofing after the Ghost is added.
Thanks for reading.
I think you miniterpreted a lot of my post. Please just let it go after this. I don’t want it back and forth. I loved your post bc in spite of the cruelty, you actually explained why you feel the way you do and I hope in the future you are assertive and explanatory in how you perceive someone to not be correct.

I am rooting for you Chessking.
*1). “Shell Smash with White Herb does lose to Imposter.”
But that is beside my point, which was that anything else will not be able to KO as easily bc your not giving up your Defenses (due to White Herb), while Unburden is about giving up 25% HP after Sitrus Berry. I didn’t quote the specific point about surviving Priority when I replied to Mamp which I see is why you are confused. I should have broken it down like I did for the specific passage I quoted from SL42.

My first point you mentioned, was actually specific in reply to the final statement in Mamp’s post:
the main difference between these and things like simple shell smash is that unburden drum is imposterproof and far better against priority
I was disagreeing about Priority, not about whether it was Imposterproof. I thought it would have been clear bc I mentioned White Herb specifically as the advantage in staying just as defensively bulky after setting up as before the Shell Smash, which was at the beginning of my post.

I figured it was clear bc I said -
I think my comparison with Simple Smash was with White Herb, which means that compared to Belly Drum, you are able to take more hits
*1B). “Surprise factor is something that can be argued for every offensive mon, this is BH.”
I do disagree with how surprise factor can be argued for “every” offensive Mon, especially on higher levels of ladder play bc people are more focused on what is needed and less likely to take risks bc Imposter can lead and scout many unpredictable sets anyways.

Regardless, you misinterpreted my point about unpredictability. I wasn’t saying Kartana cannot run random sets, I was saying that Tyranitar-Mega’s Set won’t be obvious in the Team Preview. Tar can run PHeal,m, Sandstream, etc. which are sets that Kartana wouldn’t have a reason to run, and it has less balanced stats so it cannot be used defensively.

So, my point on surprise factors was not on the specific set’s random coverage moves, but on what Pokémon are going to be the set up Pokémon, and how Shell Smash fits on more Pokémon than Belly Drum (I.e. Special and Mixed Attackers), which I mentioned in my post.

Afterall, good Pokémon can make a difference in regards to the number of viable Shell Smashers versus Belly Drummers- this is key due to Team Preview.

If I see a Kartana on the foe’s Team Preview, I play as if I know it is Belly Drum bc it rarely has more than 2 viable sets (The other being Steelworker), and it’s safer to assume it is Belly Drum than to believe it’s another set and lose bc I underestimated it.

TLDR- Belly Drum is a more predictable move bc if the foe doesn’t have Kartana, or Dusk-Mane, it is less likely they have it at all; Shell Smash can be more of a surprise bc more Pokémon can pull it off and you cannot tell based on Team Preview, especially as some Pokémon like Tyranitar-Mega have so many viable sets that the versatility of the Pokémon also makes it a surprise factor, bc even if it uses a standard set, you cannot know that right away. Kartana can’t be justified for as many roles as Tyranitar-Mega, so if you have to fit Kartana on a team it won’t be because of a defensive set, it will be for its Steel Heavy Offensive coverage, with Unburden being the most useful of its own set list for most teams.

*2). “You are going to tell me that Simple Smash Kartana should be used over BellyBurden Kartana and that Simple Smash Dusk-Mane is better than BellyBurden Dusk-Mane.”

I never said that Pokémon who can use Unburden are better with Shell Smash, I acknowledged a few key advantages (Bulk, and re-useability), but I don’t think it will strictly be better for Kartana to use Shell Smash.

*2B). “Re-usability is non-existent because once someone knows your set they are never letting you setup. Your White Herb is also one-use.
The advantage is doing less damage and losing Imposter.”

While White Herb is also one use, it doesn’t impact the Ability, or the set up sweeping. If it can survive the turn it sets up, White Herb isn’t needed. It’s a safeguard, but not a requirement. Whereas using up the item is an actual requirement for Unburden.

As for doing less damage, that is true for Sunsteel Strike when omitting certain attacks that would benefit from boosts, and like I mentioned in my last post, regardless of that, Mixed Sweepers can use Shell Smash.

As for you omitting certain moves, I am specifically referring to Power Trip, which I mentioned in my prior post, as Power Trip Tyranitar would only use Sunsteel Strike for Unaware Dark resists, and Shedinja. Having a + 4 (which means X 3) 260 Base Power Trip = 780 Base power (WITHOUT STAB) is much stronger than a 150 (with STAB) + 6 (which means 4 X) 600 Base power Sunsteel Strike. And mind you, this is not including STAB on Power Trip.

If comparing Simple Shell Smash used on Tyranitar-Mega vs STAB Sunsteel Strike Belly Drum on even a Fur Coat Pokemon let’s see which does more damage (Arceus is used for easy comparison, not bc it is a good Fur Coat User):

+6 252+ Atk Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 585-688 (131.7 - 154.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 525-618 (118.2 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+4 252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus: 528-622 (118.9 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tyranitar-Mega outdamages Dusk-Mane, and that means against most anything lacking Fur Coat, Power Trip is literally over double the damage of Sunsteel Strike from Dusk-Mane. Arceus doesn’t have Fur Coat listed in the Sunsteel Strike Calcs bc the ability is ignored, but it is listed for Power Trip bc I made it that ability to show the power scale.

As for the rest your 2nd point, I still disagree, and here is why:
For Unburden, if you have Kartana out and they switch to Prankster on the turn you have Belly Drummed, which is something most people would do bc Kartana is more predictable, then they will Haze or Topsy Turvy when you try to Attack, and now you wasted Belly Drum bc Unburden won’t be usable after you switch out.

Shell Smashers can switch out and in again, and while losing White Herb is not ideal, their main goal can still be to outspeed most things thanks to the Speed Boost. As for Unburden, Kartana has to be naturally faster since it doesn’t have any form of a Speed Boost once Unburden is gone, and that’s if it can safely Belly Drum a second time down to 25%.

Another disadvantage is the fact that Entrainment, Core Enforcer and others can happen at the wrong moment for Unburden users. Entrainment can happen on the switch in, and Core Enforcer can occur even if the foe doesn’t have Prankster, say they use it on your Belly Drum, allowing them to remove your Speed advantage, and then send in something faster next turn.

Also, getting Tricked, and Knocked Off can be another disadvantage on an Unburden user’s switch in. Especially as Dusk-Mane is weak to Knock Off, and even without knowing its ability, will naturally attract the move even from things like Mewtwo-Mega-X.

Regardless, Shell Smash relies solely on the move, not the ability or even the item. If a Shell Smash gets Entrained, or Knocked Off on the switch in, you can be sure the Shell Smasher can still be used.

*3). “You gonna tell me that BellyBurden loses to Unaware now.”

I actually never said Unburden Belly Drummers lose to Unaware. You literally quoted me simply saying that Simple Shell Smashers can go thru Unaware with Power Trip...
I never said Sunsteel Unburden couldn’t do the same...

In fact, based on your quote of my post, I even mention Sunsteel on Shell Smash Tyranitar-Mega specifically for Unaware users:

“Simple Smash doesn’t lose to Unaware because of Power Trip, unless they also resist Dark, such as the aforementioned Tyranitar-Mega, which is immune to Prankster like Topsy Turvey, Encore, etc., plus what is stopping certain users from packing a Moldy move as well? Shell Smash Tyranitar can pack Sunsteel, to handle the Unaware Fairies and Shedinja that feel safe vs Power Trip.”

So if the only 2 Belly Drummers we are focusing on pack Sunsteel Strike, clearly I know they bypass Unaware.

*3B). “Prankster Haze still beats you and no one would use any other Prank move on a Dark type.
Its Topsy-Turvy not Topsy Turvey

Having less Prankster hard-stops to sweeping, regardless of my spelling, is another advantage to having Power Trip Tyranitar-Mega. While Giratina, uses Haze, some Pokémon like Prankster Registeel use Encore, and Topysy Turvey as do others like Aegislash (Topsy Turvey). Seriously, if they don’t have Haze, they better have Destiny Bond, and even then they lost something bc you guaranteed a kill, Unburden doesn’t typically use Tyranitar-Mega, and even if it did, Power Trip on Simple Shell Smash has much higher Base power.

3C). “Unaware Fairies are not a thing.”

Unaware Audino-Mega is used by myself and many people I have played against. It cannot be Core Enforcer’d, cannot be hit by Moongeist Beam, and has the ability to slow pivot, with matching defenses to boot.

They are a thing in Mega-Audino, and one of the most common abilities I see anyone else even use Audino-Mega for, period.

*4). “Self-quoted Setpedia point”

Take it up with the Setpedia creators.

*5)."most variants of belly drum you've discussed aren't really relevant: the specific sets that sl42 is talking about are belly drum + unburden steels, particularly kartana and dusk-mane. " - MAMP, literally the response post right before your post. Please read.”

I did read that, and that is why I said Belly Drum is still dangerous, and I said “especially” on Slaking and Heracross-Mega, while still including the others. Afterall, I was replying to the point that Prankster is the only counter option that can be used to stop Belly Drum Unburden, but my point was that it can be handled by other means.

That’s why I repeatedly cited the Priority as a counter measure including Triage Ray against Kartana.
You took my quote without reviewing the full context which reads as-

“Anyways, I totally agree that Belly Drum is dangerous, but I wanted to point out that there are methods of blocking it besides Prankster, especially on stuff like Triage Heracross-Mega and Dazzling Slaking which can be blocked by Dazzling.

Plus for Priority, since Kartana can be KOed by Triage Rayquaza Oblivion Wing, at near perfect health, even if Kartana had Extreme Speed it would still lose, let alone if it didn’t have any Priority at all:

252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 320-376 (99.3 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

And that’s without even using a Modest Nature, and before any setup move on Rayquaza’s part, and without having to wait for Belly Drum to reduce Kartana to 75% after Sitrus Berry”

Since your next point was in agreement with my Priority counter measure, which is what followed, and because my points are connected, that would mean that I understand that I am discussing all Belly Drummers, and simply mentioned that Non-Unburden users (Heracross and Slaking) are countered by Dazzling, in addition to what normally counters the Unburden Belly Drummers. *Please be fair and notice that my points are connected, I.e. the part you agreed with.*

*6). “Because everyone sets up on something they can't threaten out and always carries Spectral or Core.”

You missed my point. My point was that a single Pokémon can discourage any Dusk-Mane and Kartana Unburden user from coming in, bc it will likely pack Spectral Thief and/or Core Enforcer if it doesn’t at least have Haze. TLDR- Giratina is an Unburden deterrent regardless of its ability bc of its natural bulk, and moves, as both moves have good overall utility, gains STAB, and an additional boost from Grisceous Orb which is used to block Trick and Knock Off effects.

Other Prankster users like Zygarde-Complete may end up just being RegenVest, but Giratina can likely deter with most of its entire set list, regardless of which variant is used.

And you said earlier that Shell Smash wouldn’t be re-usable when the foe knows your set, but Giratina using Haze doesn’t necessarily save it from a Smasher bc the Smasher could be Gengar-Mega which can still threaten with STAB moves, while Dusk-Mane and Kartana have to switch out from Giratina if it comes in in the turn it sets up.

*7). “Simple Smash is not more versatile, not less predictable, is also one use, and loses to Imposter.”

It is more versatile bc Special Sweepers, Mixed Sweepers, and Physical Sweepers can use it, while Belly Drum Unburden is only, emphasized by Mamp and Sl42, used by physical Steel-Types.

Why would you say that? It is literally more versatile in what moves can be benefited by it, the number of Pokémon with Special Attack as their primary offense, and anything that has low speed that can triple, not just double it.

Correction: White Herb is one use; Shell Smash is not one use.

Shell Smash with White Herb can lose to Imposter, but as I mentioned with Dusk-Mane and Gengar-Mega; they can be self-Improof if they don’t use White Herb.

Heck, if you fear Priority, or Imposter in the same set, you could even use Focus Sash, and now it can be self-Improof and survive a Priority move at - 2 Def and - 2 SpD.
———————
*8). “Of all the great abilities you can run on Smash Gar you suggest Simple which adds nothing and rather makes it so you cannot run Poison STAB reliably. 10/10 job.”

It adds offense, and what does Poison cover exactly? Boomburst does more than Sludge Wave and Sludge Bomb, and the only thing STAB Posion does is hit Sceptile-Mega which is KOed after Shell Smash regardless unless it has Focus Sash, and Fairies harder, which you mentioned don’t pack Unaware and won’t survive a Boomburst from +4 Shell Smash

+4 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Audino-Mega: 376-443 (91.7 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

The only other Fairies are Xerneas, Diancie-Mega and Magearna which are all hit harder by its STAB Ghost attacks anyways.

Boomburst also helps it hit things like Unaware Muk-Alolan, and Poison Healers which are not adversely affected by the Poison chance of its Poison STAB, such as PHeal Zygarde.
#Addressed
 
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