I'd like to comment some of the numbered points (bold and italic) in the quote before discussing on the action of sleep in bh.Thanks all for the level of high-quality discussion on the topic.
My thoughts on sleep have traditionally been close to one-to-one with what mamp said. I have thought that with the change in sleep reset mechanics from gen 5 to gen 6, the key introduction of Safety Goggles, the usage of increasingly viable abilities in PH, MG, Magic Bounce as well as supplementary tools that keep getting introduced like (in order of gens they were used) sleep talk(1), magic coat, insomnia/vital spirit, terrains, comatose(2) have led to the effectiveness of sleep going down. Insomnia and Vital Spirit in fact are the "ultimate counters" for sleep that people have said do not exist in this thread. I have also noticed that sleep out of pretty much anything else, has resulted in high levels of confirmation bias i.e. people tend to remember when they've lost due to a bad sleep roll much more than when they've won because they got a favorable one, again which mamp touches on. (3)
Yes, as Shed said, it is true mold sleep can be run which has much fewer counters(4), but the ones that do exist are much more popular than mold + sleep itself has historically been while still having some of the niche tools like comatose, insomnia that still do work. I have covered this topic in detail last gen:
I believe that sleep can be used competitively, as a risk-reward tool(5), a coverage option that improves your mu against certain mons that you could not otherwise beat(6), just as if you ran another move. A positive example of this would actually be, imo, the exact example morogrim mentioned with kyogre; the use of sleep allows a mon to beat another that they normally would not be able to, just as a specific coverage move would e.g. bolt strike on sf m2y. This is also seen in many ph mons which sometimes have to decide between a general purpose sleep move and a better more specific, coverage option for mons or a team that are more sleep-resistant.
However, I recognize that while this might be fine in an isolated one on one, with the increase in power creep, this has led to instead of taking down a specific mu, to wrapping up the game as klang mentions and morogrim continued in his post. I also see highlighter's point about being forced to run goggles is actually a centralization as many other items could be used (even though goggles has the secondary benefit of being immune to weather damage). Whether this brings it into the territory of banworthy is I guess what we need to figure out.
Therefore, I am considering taking action on sleep in bh. I think the first step should be a poll to determine what options we should have. My initial thoughts are
i would like you all to discuss these potential options and I will read and go ahead with the next steps as needed. thanks again
- implement a sleep clause. I personally think this would be the preferred outcome to keep the competitive usage of sleep, but it may be too drastic of a step
- ban specific sleep moves. I don't believe in banning sleep in its entirety. I actually do agree with Shed that we do not need to be tied to the way other tiers usually solve this by having a sleep clause. If there is interest in suspecting individual moves one by one after seeing how they do then I think we should facilitate that, just as it's done in 1v1
- there are enough tools available to handle sleep; no further action is needed
1) Sleep Talk is laughably a check to sleep. Most of the problems caused by sleep are inconsistencies as the number of sleep turns is unknown. Each turn of sleeping has a chance of waking you up and a chance of doing nothing, except the 3rd turn where we know we wake up and the "0th" turn where we know we can't wake up. If Sleep Talk is run then the chance of using the intended move (assuming you have one to begin with) is 1/3. Which is ridiculous, because we are trading use the intended move or do nothing with 1/3 chance of using the intended move or do nothing. It might have been useful in the past, I wasn't even here in gen 5 and 6 without oras, but it's flat out bad right now, like not even worth mentioning. Who would have have the moveslot to run it? Is fighting rng to wake up with rng to pick the correct move a good idea?
2) If we are listing the checks to sleep, we might want to add Quick Feet and Guts (orb activated), autoheal from weather in the form of Hydration and Leaf Guard(idk if it's the right name) and Shed Skin. The most relevant of this addition is probably Quick Feet, but let's be honest even if very rare it's probably more relevant than Insomnia as it also allows to outspeed dazzling (sort of). For moves we have Substitute (when not Sing/Grass Whistle) and Uproar (I'm listing everything I can think of, I know it's bad). Also we have berries.
3) I think that the explanation lies here:" I can lose on teambuilding because I didn't prepared for MMY yet I'm facing one and I can blame it on me, I can lose on predicts as I sent Zygarde into MMX and it clicked a scouted choice locked Ice Hammer that could have been Bolt Strike and I can blame it on me, I can prepare for sleep and [...] but nowhere I was given the chance to influence that amount of sleep turns (unless Early Bird), I can't blame it on me". That little (or big if you want to see it that way) detail is the infuriating one. It's rng and it produces those effects (confirmation bias). It also happens with irl slot machine but I'd derail if I discussed about that. The closest thing I can think of that could piss off like that is sending in a 65% HP Flash Fire Registeel into -ate Diancie boomburst to heal some damage only to get critted on switchin. Making a good choice and seeing it fail because rng sucks. Similarly ph xerns beats most regenvesters (including ogre excluding tina) solely dependant on sleep rolls, because Magma Storm into Spore means that ogre with 3 turns of sleep actually never wakes. (He's dead, Jim)cit.
4) The only thing I can think off that Teravolt sleep beats that other stuff doesn't is Magic Bounce. "Much fewer" is incorrect because it's just one. I'll have someone say:"hey but knock off and purify and stuff" but then I answer that it's a lot of support and it comes with the price of not running something else.
5) I've seen people saying that sleep is dumb to use because it's low risk high reward. It is false, for anyone not believing this. Currently in the meta it is possible to abuse a sleep predict mostly with switches. Any ph activated mon that gets in gains 1/8 of hp. It begins to matter rather immediately given that 12.5% usually means 2hko turns into 3hko (looking at fakespeed vs Regigigas). Anything already status-ed comes in for free. Primal Groudon yet to revert can switch in for free when carrying Misty/Electric terrain. Magic Bounce can get in and you gotta be immune to that sleep yourself or you are not going to like the next turn. In case of Spore the list grows by adding whatever runs googles and grass types, Kartana and Ferrothorn. Kartana free switches are frightening because the thing is going to mop the floor with so many things. You gotta start to pray that you have a good check to that particular set or else the morale is sack something or worse, GG. It is true for most wallbreakers, but Kartana has the "free switch on Spore" option.
6) The wild thing is that common users of Spore need Spore to beat the stuff they normally beats. Take for example Ph gigas; a exemplary user of both Spore and being imposterproof. Take out Spore and the thing is no longer improof. Believe it or not, sleep less gigas vs imposter is actually a speed tie on the last facade, facade boosts and ph healing factored in (without koff, but you still wouldn't quite survive well with koff). The same goes for Xern. Sometimes, Spore is the set, not a coverage move.
Now, for the actions;
a) Sleep clause; If there's a correct amount, it's 1. 2 doesn't help. I'm not either particularly pro or against it, but it surely is reasonable.
b) Ban sleep move/s; Where would that line should be placed? Spore would be almost certainly on the list, maybe kiss, but the others? Sleep Powder is the bad mix of the first two, is that enough? In a kiss and Spore less meta, Sleep Powder still sort of requires googles as a check, and it wouldn't be any different. Stop at Hypnosis? At the No Guard moves? We gotta try to rng past enemies with Serene Grace Relic Song or not? Yawn still has 100% and more or less forces a switch, but you have the option right?
c) Do nothing; this is the other viable option. The noncompetitive sleep options mostly are accompanied by smash/Contrary, so maybe that's the problem? A complicated clause that says; no sleep with smash/Contrary? Looks
I wish I was clear enough with my points, if you need an explanation ask it.