BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

Thanks all for the level of high-quality discussion on the topic.

My thoughts on sleep have traditionally been close to one-to-one with what mamp said. I have thought that with the change in sleep reset mechanics from gen 5 to gen 6, the key introduction of Safety Goggles, the usage of increasingly viable abilities in PH, MG, Magic Bounce as well as supplementary tools that keep getting introduced like (in order of gens they were used) sleep talk(1), magic coat, insomnia/vital spirit, terrains, comatose(2) have led to the effectiveness of sleep going down. Insomnia and Vital Spirit in fact are the "ultimate counters" for sleep that people have said do not exist in this thread. I have also noticed that sleep out of pretty much anything else, has resulted in high levels of confirmation bias i.e. people tend to remember when they've lost due to a bad sleep roll much more than when they've won because they got a favorable one, again which mamp touches on. (3)

Yes, as Shed said, it is true mold sleep can be run which has much fewer counters(4), but the ones that do exist are much more popular than mold + sleep itself has historically been while still having some of the niche tools like comatose, insomnia that still do work. I have covered this topic in detail last gen:

I believe that sleep can be used competitively, as a risk-reward tool(5), a coverage option that improves your mu against certain mons that you could not otherwise beat(6), just as if you ran another move. A positive example of this would actually be, imo, the exact example morogrim mentioned with kyogre; the use of sleep allows a mon to beat another that they normally would not be able to, just as a specific coverage move would e.g. bolt strike on sf m2y. This is also seen in many ph mons which sometimes have to decide between a general purpose sleep move and a better more specific, coverage option for mons or a team that are more sleep-resistant.

However, I recognize that while this might be fine in an isolated one on one, with the increase in power creep, this has led to instead of taking down a specific mu, to wrapping up the game as klang mentions and morogrim continued in his post. I also see highlighter's point about being forced to run goggles is actually a centralization as many other items could be used (even though goggles has the secondary benefit of being immune to weather damage). Whether this brings it into the territory of banworthy is I guess what we need to figure out.

(tldr)
Therefore, I am considering taking action on sleep in bh. I think the first step should be a poll to determine what options we should have. My initial thoughts are
  1. implement a sleep clause. I personally think this would be the preferred outcome to keep the competitive usage of sleep, but it may be too drastic of a step
  2. ban specific sleep moves. I don't believe in banning sleep in its entirety. I actually do agree with Shed that we do not need to be tied to the way other tiers usually solve this by having a sleep clause. If there is interest in suspecting individual moves one by one after seeing how they do then I think we should facilitate that, just as it's done in 1v1
  3. there are enough tools available to handle sleep; no further action is needed
i would like you all to discuss these potential options and I will read and go ahead with the next steps as needed. thanks again
I'd like to comment some of the numbered points (bold and italic) in the quote before discussing on the action of sleep in bh.
1) Sleep Talk is laughably a check to sleep. Most of the problems caused by sleep are inconsistencies as the number of sleep turns is unknown. Each turn of sleeping has a chance of waking you up and a chance of doing nothing, except the 3rd turn where we know we wake up and the "0th" turn where we know we can't wake up. If Sleep Talk is run then the chance of using the intended move (assuming you have one to begin with) is 1/3. Which is ridiculous, because we are trading use the intended move or do nothing with 1/3 chance of using the intended move or do nothing. It might have been useful in the past, I wasn't even here in gen 5 and 6 without oras, but it's flat out bad right now, like not even worth mentioning. Who would have have the moveslot to run it? Is fighting rng to wake up with rng to pick the correct move a good idea?
2) If we are listing the checks to sleep, we might want to add Quick Feet and Guts (orb activated), autoheal from weather in the form of Hydration and Leaf Guard(idk if it's the right name) and Shed Skin. The most relevant of this addition is probably Quick Feet, but let's be honest even if very rare it's probably more relevant than Insomnia as it also allows to outspeed dazzling (sort of). For moves we have Substitute (when not Sing/Grass Whistle) and Uproar (I'm listing everything I can think of, I know it's bad). Also we have berries.
3) I think that the explanation lies here:" I can lose on teambuilding because I didn't prepared for MMY yet I'm facing one and I can blame it on me, I can lose on predicts as I sent Zygarde into MMX and it clicked a scouted choice locked Ice Hammer that could have been Bolt Strike and I can blame it on me, I can prepare for sleep and [...] but nowhere I was given the chance to influence that amount of sleep turns (unless Early Bird), I can't blame it on me". That little (or big if you want to see it that way) detail is the infuriating one. It's rng and it produces those effects (confirmation bias). It also happens with irl slot machine but I'd derail if I discussed about that. The closest thing I can think of that could piss off like that is sending in a 65% HP Flash Fire Registeel into -ate Diancie boomburst to heal some damage only to get critted on switchin. Making a good choice and seeing it fail because rng sucks. Similarly ph xerns beats most regenvesters (including ogre excluding tina) solely dependant on sleep rolls, because Magma Storm into Spore means that ogre with 3 turns of sleep actually never wakes. (He's dead, Jim)cit.
4) The only thing I can think off that Teravolt sleep beats that other stuff doesn't is Magic Bounce. "Much fewer" is incorrect because it's just one. I'll have someone say:"hey but knock off and purify and stuff" but then I answer that it's a lot of support and it comes with the price of not running something else.
5) I've seen people saying that sleep is dumb to use because it's low risk high reward. It is false, for anyone not believing this. Currently in the meta it is possible to abuse a sleep predict mostly with switches. Any ph activated mon that gets in gains 1/8 of hp. It begins to matter rather immediately given that 12.5% usually means 2hko turns into 3hko (looking at fakespeed vs Regigigas). Anything already status-ed comes in for free. Primal Groudon yet to revert can switch in for free when carrying Misty/Electric terrain. Magic Bounce can get in and you gotta be immune to that sleep yourself or you are not going to like the next turn. In case of Spore the list grows by adding whatever runs googles and grass types, Kartana and Ferrothorn. Kartana free switches are frightening because the thing is going to mop the floor with so many things. You gotta start to pray that you have a good check to that particular set or else the morale is sack something or worse, GG. It is true for most wallbreakers, but Kartana has the "free switch on Spore" option.
6) The wild thing is that common users of Spore need Spore to beat the stuff they normally beats. Take for example Ph gigas; a exemplary user of both Spore and being imposterproof. Take out Spore and the thing is no longer improof. Believe it or not, sleep less gigas vs imposter is actually a speed tie on the last facade, facade boosts and ph healing factored in (without koff, but you still wouldn't quite survive well with koff). The same goes for Xern. Sometimes, Spore is the set, not a coverage move.

Now, for the actions;

a) Sleep clause; If there's a correct amount, it's 1. 2 doesn't help. I'm not either particularly pro or against it, but it surely is reasonable.
b) Ban sleep move/s; Where would that line should be placed? Spore would be almost certainly on the list, maybe kiss, but the others? Sleep Powder is the bad mix of the first two, is that enough? In a kiss and Spore less meta, Sleep Powder still sort of requires googles as a check, and it wouldn't be any different. Stop at Hypnosis? At the No Guard moves? We gotta try to rng past enemies with Serene Grace Relic Song or not? Yawn still has 100% and more or less forces a switch, but you have the option right?
c) Do nothing; this is the other viable option. The noncompetitive sleep options mostly are accompanied by smash/Contrary, so maybe that's the problem? A complicated clause that says; no sleep with smash/Contrary? Looks
1546122764284.png
to me.

I wish I was clear enough with my points, if you need an explanation ask it.
 
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E4 Flint : I thought about including Vital Insomnia in an earlier post about sleep checks/counters, but, when you break it down, they're not relevant abilities anymore. Comatose does all the anti-sleep stuff you could want from them. AND it blocks other status effects. AND its immune to Mold Breaker. AND it cannot be removed by Core Enforcer/Entrainment/etc. The only drawback is its vulnerable to Bad Dreams, Nightmare, and Dream Eater, but nobody uses those.

Also, for the sake of being clear, I favor option 1. I dislike half measures as they seem to have a history of not working well (-ate clause last Gen for BH or OU's history of trying to ban Baton Pass without banning Baton Pass for years and years). I feel like option 2 is either gonna be a bandaid that'll get ripped off later or it'll ban so much it might as well have been a full ban.


So if anybody else would like to tell me chatter is unquestionably better than spore please go ahead.
-Chatter can be used with an Assault Vest
-Chatter can be used while Taunted
-Chatter bypasses Substitute without using Infiltrator
-Chatter bypasses Comatose
-Chatter bypasses Magic Bounce without Mold Breaker
-Chatter bypasses Magic Coat
-Chatter bypasses Poison Heal and other status orb sets
-Chatter only has one relevant "counter item", which is a one-use Lum Berry, and that only blocks the status effect
-Chatter does direct damage and, with enough boosts, can be used as a sweeping or clean-up tool on its own
-Confusion can be stacked on top of other status effects, notably Paralysis (less chance to move)
-Confusion not only skips turns, but does unblockable damage to the victim, which can break Sashes or put targets past KO break points.
-Confusion's "counter ability", Tangled Feet, doesn't actually mitigate the status effect in any fashion
-Confusion's other "counter ability", Own Tempo, has no use besides checking Confusion and does nothing to stop Chatter's direct damage
-Confusion is not blocked by Electric Terrain
-Chatter does damage through Misty Terrain
-Chatter has no type-based immunities
-Chatter's ability-based immunity, Soundproof, does not give the user a boost when it blocks the move (like Sap Sipper)
-Chatter does not have a move-based counter (although Sleep Talk is sketchy and Psycho Shifting sleep is really hard)
-Coverage or stronger STAB moves can be paired with Chatter for maximum damage, identically to Spore (EG: Chatter > Shell Smash > Oblivion Wing)
-Confusion can last up to four turns
-Confusion turns don't count if the opponent fails to move (paralysis, sleep, flinch, etc.)
-Chatter can have STAB
-Chatter can be boosted by more abilities (Adaptability, Gale Wings (not as relevant anymore), Mold Breaker, etc.)
-Cannot be cured by status-removal moves, like Refresh or Heal Bell
-Chatter has more PP (base 20 versus Spore's base 15)
-Confusion is carried by Baton Pass
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Going by my own logic here, why is banning sleep entirely not a feasible solution? If a move can force an uncompetitive situation, it would still create the same uncompetitive situation (but on a smaller scale) even if you were limited to sleeping 1 mon no? Looking at the available options though, the closest option to banning sleep entirely would be option #2 and banning Spore, Lovely Kiss, Sleep Powder, Sing, Hypnosis, Grass Whistle, and Yawn.
If as a result of this ban, we see people starting to use sets like PH Darkrai with Dark Void...we might have to also consider banning DV as well
But on a more serious note, I think banning sleep as a whole is the way to go here.
 
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Following up to what moro said, I don't understand why we'd ban specific sleep moves as opposed to sleep as a whole if we're going to go down the ban route instead of the clause route. The fact that Hypnosis has 60% accuracy isn't really a consolation to the person who's mon has been snoozing for 3 turns while the opponent is setting up in their face.

Banning sleep inducing moves as a whole is just a cleaner ban and gets rid of everything uncompetitive in one shot. Are we really keeping anything valuable by stopping at 75% accuracy if we deem sleep as uncompetitive?
 
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I think Sleep is really a problem with spamming it, and with Anchor Shot, etc. to trap and reset sleep.

I would say a Sleep Clause seems good.

Are we afraid of set-up moves, or repeatedly sleeping more? Is it the up to 3 turns per sleep, or the threat of sleeping multiple Pokémon?

I think the questions’ answers help us define what makes Sleep too “uncompetitive”. If 1 Pokémon sleeps 3 turns once during a match, is that bad?
Or is it the risk it might be 2+ Pokémon put to sleep throughout the match?
Or is it that they can Sleep your Pokémon (even the same one) multiple times when one wakes up, since the Sleep Clause doesn’t limit the number of times Sleep is used, just the number of Pokémon asleep at once.

For me, it’s Trapping + Sleep that seems most potent.
They can Anchor Shot + Knock Off (or have Knock Off teammates earlier in the match) + Sleep, and then do something like Perish Song, etc.

Now with Safety Goggles gone, Spore can be used, etc. and you cannot switch out.

What variables combined make Sleep a concern? Is it Sleep itself? Or does something else make it too much to keep?
 
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Thanks all for the level of high-quality discussion on the topic.

My thoughts on sleep have traditionally been close to one-to-one with what mamp said. I have thought that with the change in sleep reset mechanics from gen 5 to gen 6, the key introduction of Safety Goggles, the usage of increasingly viable abilities in PH, MG, Magic Bounce as well as supplementary tools that keep getting introduced like (in order of gens they were used) sleep talk, magic coat, insomnia/vital spirit, terrains, comatose have led to the effectiveness of sleep going down. Insomnia and Vital Spirit in fact are the "ultimate counters" for sleep that people have said do not exist in this thread. I have also noticed that sleep out of pretty much anything else, has resulted in high levels of confirmation bias i.e. people tend to remember when they've lost due to a bad sleep roll much more than when they've won because they got a favorable one, again which mamp touches on.

Yes, as Shed said, it is true mold sleep can be run which has much fewer counters, but the ones that do exist are much more popular than mold + sleep itself has historically been while still having some of the niche tools like comatose, insomnia that still do work. I have covered this topic in detail last gen:

I believe that sleep can be used competitively, as a risk-reward tool, a coverage option that improves your mu against certain mons that you could not otherwise beat, just as if you ran another move. A positive example of this would actually be, imo, the exact example morogrim mentioned with kyogre; the use of sleep allows a mon to beat another that they normally would not be able to, just as a specific coverage move would e.g. bolt strike on sf m2y. This is also seen in many ph mons which sometimes have to decide between a general purpose sleep move and a better more specific, coverage option for mons or a team that are more sleep-resistant.

However, I recognize that while this might be fine in an isolated one on one, with the increase in power creep, this has led to instead of taking down a specific mu, to wrapping up the game as klang mentions and morogrim continued in his post. I also see highlighter's point about being forced to run goggles is actually a centralization as many other items could be used (even though goggles has the secondary benefit of being immune to weather damage). Whether this brings it into the territory of banworthy is I guess what we need to figure out.

(tldr)
Therefore, I am considering taking action on sleep in bh. I think the first step should be a poll to determine what options we should have. My initial thoughts are
  1. implement a sleep clause. I personally think this would be the preferred outcome to keep the competitive usage of sleep, but it may be too drastic of a step
  2. ban specific sleep moves. I don't believe in banning sleep in its entirety. I actually do agree with Shed that we do not need to be tied to the way other tiers usually solve this by having a sleep clause. If there is interest in suspecting individual moves one by one after seeing how they do then I think we should facilitate that, just as it's done in 1v1
  3. there are enough tools available to handle sleep; no further action is needed
i would like you all to discuss these potential options and I will read and go ahead with the next steps as needed. thanks again
I would consider spore added also a huge niche for grass types like m-sceptile, m-venusaur, ferrothorn or kartana, no matter if they use sleep moves themself or not.
There's a sample with 3 mega-sceptile inside on the forum, I'd rather say it's a hard moment when facing it, but the worse part inside of it isn't the sceptiles themself, but the MMX that has poison heal and knock off that remove every goggles around to let them put asleep whatever they can and sweep (it just remind me how cancer is poison heal regigigas with knock off spore facade and shift gear).

I agree with a sleep clause
 
Silent Night prelude to sleep suspect.
I just woke up in time to talk about this this year.


In my eyes sleep moves are harmless;

Safety Googles blocking Spore is about as huge as an item granting you type or move immunity.
75% accuracy is your 2nd best bet.
Your opponents items are unknown beforehand, plus they can be easily changed.
Lum Berry/Chesto Berry can give that one free turn to ruin a sleep strategy.
If your opponent is faster and can KO you, your permasleep (church talk).
The sleep timer is on YOU.

Prankster status can be blocked by Psychic Terrain, Misty Terrain blocks non Prankster status aswell.
With Terrain Extender status battle strategies can get disabled for 8 turns.
If only 1 of your pokes is getting walled the Terrain setter can re set up indefinitely, PP stall included.

Sleep used to be an old Anti-Imposter mechanic, but with better move effects around its less efficient now.
Putting multiple pokes to sleep is the fun factor, Prankster Magikarp and Transform Pikachu can do it.

Over Generations sleep has been nerfed too much, people worry about Bad Dreams instead of Dream Eater.
Contrast point would be a set upper losing all boosts after scoring 2 KOs.
Sleep is good on meta stuff like Contrary MMY or Triage M-Ray to get passed walls.


Here a selfmade Truck Driver Quote "I was asleep and i woke up in a Pokemon Center."
Have a good sleep 365 times next year, those who take a day nap 730 times.
 

GL Volkner

meet me in the afterglow
is a Tiering Contributor
On phone so I can't write like these people are doing but since everyone's pitching in I figured I would even tho idk if my opinion matters much.

Ive never had issues w sleep and I've generally been in favor of keeping it since it seems most people are going after it as opposed to other things as a matter of convenience, but if it's heading somewhere I believe the solution is to hold a suspect for ALL sleep moves with extremely high reqs. BH isn't the most popular thing on Smogon, but the news of a sleep suspect would definitely reach other people, and I feel some of them would go for reqs because they feel a healthy meta needs a sleep clause. While people should be allowed to attain reqs and vote based on their own reasons, I think this would create an unfair advantage for the pro ban side and I think heightened reqs are a good way to reduce the size of that advantage. This is probably one of BH's most controversial suspects; We don't really need one side to have an drastic advantage made by players who won't touch the meta after the suspect test. I'm thinking 87 GXE and at least 40 games, but the GXE is an arbitrary number and probably should increase.

Note that while this removes an advantage for proban, it's not giving antiban an unfair advantage. I think it's fair. I also think that if anyone on the outside actually wants that GXE so they can vote, they have a right to vote.

I don't think I'll vote ban on Sleep. Honestly, idk if anything needs to be done, and I don't think it's very annoying either. This test doesn't feel like one created out of necessity; I enjoy the meta at the moment. I think it's possible to create a team that has reasonable counterplay to almost every set and unset in the meta. I don't think there's much else that needs a ban, other than Triage and Contrary. Since both of these strategies run Sleep, maybe this suspect will nerf them? That's the only reason I can find that would necessiate a Sleep suspect, but I think trying to nerf a broken component of the meta instead of removing it is a flawed concept and I also think that the power of Triage and Contrary sets comes from the abilities, not the supplementary Sleep moves.

That being said, not wanting a suspect is also flawed in my opinion. It's denying people who don't use forums as much the ability to say their piece, and above all it's just denying us the ability to say our piece in a place where we know the reasonable impact it'll have.

One last thing before I close this off; There are a lot of people who would be interested in seeing what a Sleepless meta would lpok like. To accomodate these people, I think we should have a forum tour with Sleep banned. However, I also don't think that these people should vote based on the meta they like more; It's a suspect test, after all, and not a ban test.
 
Sorry, I didn"t speak English very well, but I wanted to give my opinion on the sleep suspect test.

The sleep allows to disable a pokemon for 1 to 3 rounds, which is useful to set-up, make a pokemon ineffective for a moment or allow you to pass big defensive pokémons. It can be a good move of coverage on most set-up sweeper (Ray Triage, Contrary, Poison Heal ...).

Comatose and Poison Heal are surely the best sleep checks. We can also count Magic Bounce except against the Mold Breaker sleeper, and Misty Surge who warns the status for 5 or 8 rounds. There are also Safety Googles against Spore spam, but I will talk about it later. The other solutions are for me sub-optimal / not viable in BH.

The main problem that the sleep poses to me, is not necessarily the rolls to wake up (in this case why not ban the para also because you can be inactive during crucial turns), but more the effect of cascade than the sleep can pose.

As pointed out by loser2017 (with the case of Xerneas PH VS Chansey Fur Coat), having no constraints on this status allows you to win against pokémons who normally wall. But this is a huge concern, it is supposed to check this teambuilding, but even with a thoughtful teambuild, it happens to lose against that without being able to do anything, because it is enough for him spam sleep to do his job.

Moreover among the effective and viable solutions against sleep, we note these talents are very defensive, and very few are usable offensively (except for Poison Heal, there are very few offensive set that can check the sleep), which raises a teambuilding level, it is very hard to build a good HO that is not vulnerable to sleep. To fight effectively sleep, must necessarily a defensive part in the team, it is to prefer the Balanced / Stall teams in BH.

To "try" to fight the sleep, we often use the Safety Googles what comes back:
-a loss of power (we lose a more useful Item Slot)
-an overuse of object (A lot of defensive pokémon plays the Safety)
Moreover it is not even so effective to fight, because there is Lovely Kiss or Knock off + Spore.
In short, even the most popular solution is not effective in fighting this.

What are the viable options for the sleep suspect?

A) Sleep cause

This seems to me the most viable solution. Indeed, it will greatly avoid the cascading effect that I dread with sleep. I take again the example of loser2017 with Xerneas and Chansey, which represents very well the situation. This will bring a safe check if a pokémon is already asleep, and have opportunities to "bait" the sleep to keep it on check.
This will be more interesting in terms of competitiveness, the one that makes his check sleep deserved to win, while there, it is stupid enough to spammer.

B) Ban some sleep moves

Why not, but it seems a little risky. As we see on this forum, we do not agree on what moves are to ban, some want to ban everything (a measure that I find a little extreme ...), others only 2-3 moves (at risk to have other sleep moves that will become meta)

For my part, if there is no sleep cause, I consider a ban of Spore / Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder, history to spend the sleep of 100-75% to 60% -55%. I think the sleep should be less precise but stay "playable".

I do not ban Yawn too, because just U-turn / switch to get rid (and I personally like to see a strategy with Yawn walk on the ladd, it would be original)

C) Do nothing

Indeed, it's been more than a year that I play BH, and sleep rarely asked me worries. We could continue to ignore the problem and continue playing as before.

But finding the sleep not very competitive on some aspects (checks that can be managed without any compensation in some cases, little solution for HO, over-use Safety Googles), I would prefer to avoid this possibility as much as possible.
 
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This sentence on imposter must be removed from the OP, as it is a slipperyslope argument. The remainder of the post is sufficient to demonstrate why imposter shouldnt be banned and it has nothing to do with this.
I agree, technically with Eviolite it gets +1 to both Defenses on Chansey, +2 to both Offenses on Pikachu, or +1 Speed with Scarf on Blissey or Chansey.
With much higher HP on Chansey it feels like a +1 to HP, if that was possible. They cannot be Hazed off, only Tricked or Knocked Off.

If we remove that sentence, we remove the possibility someone could make that argument. I agree it is a slippery slope if we keep it.
 
Ive never had issues w sleep and I've generally been in favor of keeping it since it seems most people are going after it as opposed to other things as a matter of convenience, but if it's heading somewhere I believe the solution is to hold a suspect for ALL sleep moves with extremely high reqs.
Holy shit. I really think people are going a bit far here. We don't even have a single restriction revolving around the Sleep status right now other than ComaTalk being banned (which is irrelevant to this argument anyways). Already right off the bat we've gone from 'something from Sleep should probably be done' to 'I support a hard sleep ban across BH'. Multiple people here have hinted at the idea of a hard Sleep ban and I completely, thoroughly, and strongly disagree with a hard sleep ban. Let me be clear here. I support the idea of something being done about Sleep. I do not support the idea of a hard Sleep ban because I don't feel like it really solves the problem.
Also, for the sake of being clear, I favor option 1. I dislike half measures as they seem to have a history of not working well (-ate clause last Gen for BH or OU's history of trying to ban Baton Pass without banning Baton Pass for years and years). I feel like option 2 is either gonna be a bandaid that'll get ripped off later or it'll ban so much it might as well have been a full ban.
I get that this is probably the idea behind supporting a hard sleep ban but at the same time I'll make note that the reason bans like a hard Baton Pass exist is because they've already tried less stringent bans to try and make Baton Pass less of an issue, but Baton Pass proved to be a constant issue in OU and other tiers that a hard ban was applied to most tiers. The thing here is that not only have we not even done anything with Sleep at all (correct me if I'm wrong here, but I only recall Chatter and I think Assist being banned in Gen 6) ever since Balanced Hackmons became mainsteam and in Gen 6 there wasn't Misty Surge, Electric Surge, or Comatose. I feel like people greatly underestimate the power of these abilities. Another thing with Gen 6, I don't recall Poison Heal being an overwhelmingly high presence that basically every bulky Pokemon had to run Entrainment. Yet I'm not sure if the idea of a Sleep Clause was ever even mentioned back then.

Most Sleep users right now are either setup Pokemon or Contrary Pokemon. I feel like people are ignoring the fact that Sleep and setup together may be the issue here. I guarantee most of the problem people have here is because they got their Pokemon put to Sleep while the opponent sets up. And honestly, who wouldn't have an issue with a Contrary Mega Mewtwo Y putting you to Sleep while doing massive damage and getting stat boosts the next turn? A Triage Mega Rayquaza putting you to Sleep and then using Tail Glow to get a obscenely powerful Priority STAB Oblivion Wing that only matches Fake Out in Priority? A DQM user like Mega Gengar using Spore then smashing? A Poison Heal user like Xerneas using Kiss or Spore then using Quiver Dance or Shift Gear? There's a pattern here and it's all setup alongside Sleep. You don't see people complaining about fast Sleep users like Pheromosa or bulky Sleep users like non-setup Poison Heal Mega Tyranitar. Even more gimmicky shit like No Guard Mega Mewtwo Y doesn't really get complained about much.

Most of the reason I even mentioned Gen 6 is because I feel like there's a bit of bias here. Most of what I'm reading here seems to boil down to things like 'the Sleep status is uncompetitive'. I don't believe that. I feel like claiming Sleep is uncompetitive isn't really a good argument because it's very subjective. What I do believe is that Sleep and setup together is uncompetitive. Being able to not only get free turns but massively capitalize off them to the point of being a win condition with little drawback is uncompetitive. Sleep and setup is a win condition and I have a problem with this. It is blatantly overpowered. Should we do a hard Sleep ban when it's not Sleep alone that's the problem? I feel like we should do something with the massively overused setup. Basically everyone is using at least one Shell Smash Pokemon (usually DQM) or Shift Gear/Quiver Dance Poison Heal Pokemon on their team at any given point. I should also note that Sleep moves are one of the main ways to Imposter-proof setup Pokemon like Poison Heal users. Sleep directly benefits setup for that reason as well. It's the reason you see things like Goggles Mega Rayquaza for example.

I do think a Sleep Clause would be a good idea, but not a hard Sleep ban. I feel like it's going way too far even though we haven't even taken any action against Sleep yet.
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I feel like claiming Sleep is uncompetitive isn't really a good argument because it's very subjective. What I do believe is that Sleep and setup together is uncompetitive. Being able to not only get free turns but massively capitalize off them to the point of being a win condition with little drawback is uncompetitive. Sleep and setup is a win condition and I have a problem with this. It is blatantly overpowered. Should we do a hard Sleep ban when it's not Sleep alone that's the problem? I feel like we should do something with the massively overused setup. Basically everyone is using at least one Shell Smash Pokemon (usually DQM) or Shift Gear/Quiver Dance Poison Heal Pokemon on their team at any given point. I should also note that Sleep moves are one of the main ways to Imposter-proof setup Pokemon like Poison Heal users. Sleep directly benefits setup for that reason as well. It's the reason you see things like Goggles Mega Rayquaza for example.
There are so many things wrong about that post, but I'll just address the part about uncompetitiveness. First off, going by your logic, someone could also tell you "I feel like claiming Sleep+setup is uncompetitive isn't really a good argument because it's very subjective." You simply state that something that's been discussed thoroughly with many good/logical reasoning behind it isn't a good argument because it's "subjective?" How does that even make sense? How do you back that claim up? Do you know what uncompetitive means?

Moving on to the next point, which was the part where after saying that sleep alone isn't uncompetitive but becomes uncompetitive only if the user decides to use those free turns to set up. Is the only way to capitalize off of sleep turns setting up? Would sleep still not be uncompetitive if those free turns were spent on doing other things such as trapping+damaging the slept wall in order to score a KO? Something that is uncompetitive is uncompetitive regardless of what the user decides to do once the uncompetitive situation has occured; this also isn't really a subjective thing either. If the survival of your wall depends entirely on how many turns it is put to sleep, that means that there is an RNG element involved in that scenario which means that the cause of that situation is making the game more uncompetitive. When in a competitive game, game-changing aspects are in the hands of nothing but a randomly generated number, the game becomes less competitive; this is pretty much a definition of an uncompetitive element. Yes, the sleep user could decide to use those sleep turns to set up, but even if the user doesn't set up and just stays in and uses damaging moves for the KO instead, is that now a competitive situation?
 
You simply state that something that's been discussed thoroughly with many good/logical reasoning behind it isn't a good argument because it's "subjective?" How does that even make sense? How do you back that claim up? Do you know what uncompetitive means?
Because it seems like most people want Sleep banned because they don't like the RNG aspect of there being 1-3 turns of Sleep. Asking for Sleep to be banned because they don't like it is dumb. RNG will always be a factor in Pokemon battles despite many people hating it. That's why I find it to be a weak and subjective argument. You see Sleep being used in literally every other tier or metagame that has ever existed yet it's not an overbearing problem because they implement Sleep Clause. Which is why I believe we should start there. Then I have to ask myself: What separates us with the other metagames and tiers? Well, one thing is that you can pick almost any moveset you want. In normal tiers, you don't have the option to combine Shell Smash with a Sleep move because no Pokemon learn both at the same time, and the Pokemon that do get Setup and Sleep together (Xurkitree and Breloom come to mind) are always OU or UUBL because of it. Sleep and setup together can easily make even mediocre Pokemon really, really good. Yet in BH any Pokemon can capitalize off Sleep using setup moves and they can be much more effective at it.
Moving on to the next point, which was the part where after saying that sleep alone isn't uncompetitive but becomes uncompetitive only if the user decides to use those free turns to set up. Is the only way to capitalize off of sleep turns setting up?
No, but setup is a very easy and very effective way to capitalize off Sleep with little to no drawback, and it's a very easy wincon. You put a Pokemon to sleep the same turn while outspeeding it, and you have a 50% chance to set up without any repercussions the following turn. You put a Pokemon to sleep on the switch and you're guaranteed one free turn to set up and the opponent can't do anything about it. You could capitalize off Sleep with other moves, but why would you when you can basically get a very easy win by Shell Smashing then proceeding to click Power Trip until the opponent loses? I can honestly see why you believe this is uncompetitive, and I believe this specific scenario is, but is it Sleep or the combination of setup and Sleep that's uncompetitive? That's what I want to find out.
Would sleep still not be uncompetitive if those free turns were spent on doing other things such as trapping+damaging the slept wall in order to score a KO?
What's to say that if you trap something and beat it with Sleep that you can't already beat it without Sleep? There's very few times where you can successfully trap a wall that normally walls you (think: Cresselia vs. Mega Mewtwo X and the like) and expect to beat it using Sleep, and in the cases where you can, is Sleep really needed? And most walls use Goggles so unless you have Knock Off then you'll have to use Kiss, and using Kiss to try and beat a wall is shaky unless you 3HKO the wall in question which brings back the question: Is Sleep really needed?

I can see where you're coming from though. I still don't see this as uncompetitive. Not to mention this scenario doesn't really exist on ladder because: A. It relies on surprise factor and most sets that rely on surprise factor aren't good for long term use and B. Setup is still better in this scenario. Most of the mons that don't use setup with Sleep like the ones I mentioned above already Imposter-proof themselves so trapping isn't really needed.
If the survival of your wall depends entirely on how many turns it is put to sleep, that means that there is an RNG element involved in that scenario which means that the cause of that situation is making the game more uncompetitive. When in a competitive game, game-changing aspects are in the hands of nothing but a randomly generated number, the game becomes less competitive; this is pretty much a definition of an uncompetitive element. Yes, the sleep user could decide to use those sleep turns to set up, but even if the user doesn't set up and just stays in and uses damaging moves for the KO instead, is that now a competitive situation?
It depends if it actually gets the KO solely due to Sleep. Otherwise, my problem would be using Sleep to get a free setup turn and an easy wincon. But I actually agree that this is a problem. However, what would a hard sleep ban do to solve this scenario that a Sleep Clause wouldn't do? If your opponent is trying to win using Sleep, a Sleep Clause would very easily keep that in check because they can only have one Pokemon asleep at a time.

My main problem here is that despite having done nothing to try and deal with Sleep, there are people already advocating for a hard Sleep ban. It's always been precedent on Smogon to do smaller bans on stuff like this (example: Baton Pass) then go up to more stringent bans if said thing still continues to be a problem. Just not too long ago people were advocating for a Contrary and Shell Smash ban. Why can't we test those first to see if Sleep is still a problem? Doing a hard ban on Sleep won't keep setup in check either. I can almost guarantee people are still going to ask for either of those things to be banned even if we do a hard ban on Sleep, while I can't say for sure that people will ask for Sleep to be banned if setup gets tested.
 
The problem with a sleep clause is that it forces you to lure sleep or run exactly the same amount of prep as a non clause meta. If I lure sleep e.g. switch a random mon into ph xern then switch back to my main wall then I risk 4 turns of sleep on a slow wall (3 if it's something fast like mmx tho idk why you would switch mmx into xern). 4HKOs are incredibly common and if entry hazards are up it becomes exponentially more difficult to get that wall awake (the only reliable way you could do it would be to switch in on something that can't hurt you, sleep a turn, switch out, repeat though if you take damage every switch obviously this becomes much harder) so when you break it down you risk sacking a mon just to wall PH xern if you don't prepare for sleep at the current level.

If you take the other route and prep for sleep like you (should) do now, then you sacrifice valuable ability, item and mon slots for something that might check more things just flat out better than something like comatose would (as an example, regeneration is just generally better than PH (not dino) to defend against the rest of the meta)

So as I see it a clause would change nothing. You would still be forced to deal with sleep as you do currently, games would still hinge on the amount of sleep turns you got, and it would continue to be unhealthy for the meta. There's a reason why clauses are so infrequent in BH (only one I can think of is ate clause) and that's because dealing with evasion or CFZ or psysurge on a smaller scale doesn't make it any less of a problem
 
Basically everyone is using at least one Shell Smash Pokemon (usually DQM) or Shift Gear/Quiver Dance Poison Heal Pokemon on their team at any given point.
This is a pretty bold statement that is very generalized as well as incorrect. Set up is common, but to say that every team has at least one set up mon that uses one of those specific methods is wrong.
Asking for Sleep to be banned because they don't like it is dumb.
I'm not sure where you are seeing these opinions. Pretty much every post discussing sleep recently is well thought out and put together and looks nothing like the occasional "plz ban normalize it sweeps me" post we get.

For the actions:
  1. Sleep clause looks good on paper but it would need to be tested to see how it really plays out. I agree that there is a possibility that it would play similar to the current meta but I don't believe we would have to devote as much team building to prep for it with a clause.
  2. Banning specific sleep moves (namely Spore, Kiss, maybe Sleep Powder) seems a little drastic. Doing them one at a time sounds more reasonable but also like a longer process that could be easier to become lost in. Say we start by banning Spore. Goggle usage might drop drastically and sleep might fall off for a bit but then will come back with Kiss and Sleep Powder usage a couple months later and we're back to where we started.
  3. While there are definitely plenty of tools to stop most common sleep methods, there is only one absolutely surefire way to prevent it in Comatose. Common sleep preventive abilities like Poison Heal and Magic Bounce have much greater uses outside of only countering sleep. Despite the tools available to prevent sleep, both viable and not, I think sleep puts enough pressure on the team building process to warrant action being taken.
 
Storm Eagle I think you misunderstood my quote a bit. I favor a Sleep Clause, aka Flint's option 1. However, I favor a sleep ban over specific moves because it either has little effect in the long run (too cautious of a ban) or breaks it knees so hard it's a a ban in all but name (like, leaving only Hypnosis or something as usable). OU's issues with Baton Pass is kind of what I'd expect to happen in option 2. We also had similar options with -ate abilities where people took the conservative option of limiting it to one Pokemon per team and it was still overwhelming, arguably even worse since people role compressed them into even nastier sets than before.

Or more clearly, I prefer sleep clause. But if it came down to it, I'd prefer banning everything since weird complex bans on an issue seem to rarely work long term. (Ability clause is probably the most notable exception.)


For reference, since you asked for correction, Gen VI we got 2-Ability Clause, Evasion clause, Assist ban, Primal Groudon Ban, Primal Kyogre ban, Huge Power reban, -Ate clause (which failed long term and probably would have gone to a ban had Gen VII not released), Protean ban, Chatter ban, Moody ban, endless battle clause, and Parental Bond ban. There was also a vote for Species clause, but it failed.

Of those, Assist, -ate abilities, Primal Kyogre, and Primal Groudon all returned this generation, albeit only temporarily in Groudon's case.
 
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This is a pretty bold statement that is very generalized as well as incorrect. Set up is common, but to say that every team has at least one set up mon that uses one of those specific methods is wrong.
I wasn't aware that Prankster isn't the most used ability for Giratina, Unaware and Prankster not being the most used abilities for Zygarde-C, Prankster not being the most used ability for Registeel, Unaware not being the most used ability for Mega Audino, Unaware not being the most used ability for Yveltal, nor Prankster not being the most used ability for Aegislash. Guess the usage stats at 1760 are wrong.

I also wasn't aware that Triage isn't nearly tied with Aerilate for usage on Mega Rayquaza, Dazzling not being nearly tied with Poison Heal for usage on Mega Mewtwo X, Dazzling not being the most used Mega Gengar ability, Shift Gear PH Regigigas not being the most used by a massive margin, Simple not being Mega Tyranitar's most used ability, Unburden not being Dusk Mane's most used ability by a massive margin, Poison Heal Xerneas not being used than all other abilities combined without QD being almost 50% usage across all sets, Contrary Mega Sceptile not being the most used set, Simple not being nearly tied in usage with Magic Bounce on Arceus, nor Coil not being the most used move on Mega Aerodactyl. Let's also not forget that there's no such thing as a Pokemon entirely used for setup... What could this Pokemon not be....


In all seriousness, I find it disingenuous that you try to claim that Smash and Quiver Dance aren't common enough to be on practically every team. Setup is so prevalent in BH that practically everyone thinks a standard team needs to have at least one setup mon. Sure, you might be right in that it's not always Smash or Quiver Dance, but Smash and Quiver dance are the most effective setup moves. I should also have mentioned Shift Gear too. There's also Contrary which I have not mentioned, either. I just find it hypocritical that quite a few members of the community voted DNB during the Illusion suspect because 'they wanted for [x] setup move/ability to get banned' and lots of discussions came up about suspecting stuff like Smash and Contrary in this very thread not too long ago yet now no one seems to care any more.

Meanwhile, I can't really say that Sleep is such an overwhelming presence that 'every team should run it' like I can with setup. I'm not trying to divert the discussion towards setup but rather I believe the issue here is in setup rather than Sleep as Sleep amplifies the usefulness of setup. A Pokemon can't use Haze or Spectral Thief if it can't move at all, and Pokemon with setup can weasel their way out of being checked due to this.
For the actions:
  1. Sleep clause looks good on paper but it would need to be tested to see how it really plays out. I agree that there is a possibility that it would play similar to the current meta but I don't believe we would have to devote as much team building to prep for it with a clause.
  2. Banning specific sleep moves (namely Spore, Kiss, maybe Sleep Powder) seems a little drastic.
Yeah, this was my point in this thread. I don't see a downside to testing Sleep Clause. It's not like Sleep is an issue that needs immediate attention, even in its current state.
Or more clearly, I prefer sleep clause. But if it came down to it, I'd prefer banning everything since weird complex bans on an issue seem to rarely work long term. (Ability clause is probably the most notable exception.)
I see. I apologize for misunderstanding your quote. I prefer a Sleep Clause mostly because as I've already said, I don't think Sleep is such an issue that it needs immediate attention anyways and if it turns out that Sleep Clause doesn't help the situation (which is unlikely) then we can go to more drastic measures. I hate the idea of doing a hard Sleep ban. We haven't even tried anything for Sleep yet at all ever since BH got created, and we already seem to want to go to the most stringent possible ban.

Another thing which I feel the need to point out. There is no wrong opinion. Only unpopular ones. There is no reason to mock or insult users who make opinions you don't like. I say this because of things that have happened outside of this forum due to my posts multiple times. Healthy discussion is always a good thing. I am always willing to give my opinion even if it isn't actively liked or appreciated by others if I feel it benefits the metagame as a whole, which includes helping out newer members who want to get into BH by rating teams on the Discord or writing analyses. All I'm saying is: Be cool. It's just a game.
 
Setup is so prevalent in BH that practically everyone thinks a standard team needs to have at least one setup mon
I guess I might have taken that sentence too personally, as 83% of my serious BH teams contain no set up mons. I typically don't use set up and when I do I try to stray from something standard (like PH Gigas, Xern).

Thanks for all the usage stats, but I wasn't trying to say set up doesn't exist. I'm sure there are plenty low to mid ladder teams using Simple Arceus. I'm very aware that set up is common in this meta, I just thought that your statement of it being on every single team at least once was a bit much. Especially in a meta with Stall teams (likely carrying no set up mon) and Balanced teams (maybe carrying one set up mon and/or a choiced breaker).

I don't think that people have forgotten about the set up discussion though, especially not ShedMiddleFinga. I still think Contrary is an issue, but mainly when combined with Sleep and Mold Breaker moves. And this goes back to the Sleep discussion. Maybe without Sleep factored in, set up methods like PH and Contrary will take a hit.
 
Storm eagle two things.
1) your absolutely right about setup. Mons like xern are OP as hell and shell smash sucks. No issues there. I do think that part of Xern's dominance is its access to spore and kiss as it limits many potential walls. But I can't really find it in myself to say quiver is broken (tail glow/ drum / smash yes though).

2) this is not an argument against your general points but I don't think using statistics at 1760 are incredibly accurate. I'm not sure if it's drawn above or below that number (there's no one at 1760 or even above 1700 rn except me and Anaconja) Off the top of my head I can only think of 9 people that can consistently get to 1760 (I belive 3 of those are inactive currently) and when you draw statistics from such a small base youre measuring preference more than anything else. Almost everyone who gets to 1760 is either one of those people or an Alt. Case in point I have 5 accounts above 1700 at time of writing, so while it might look like there's a large userbase that high it's actually pretty small. I know I have run no Setup and No unaware (only prank regi) or much else on the list you supplied but that doesn't mean it isn't invalid, it's just my preference. And that preference over such a small amount of data points hugely skews data results
Tl;Dr drawing stats from a group of skilled people with more data points > drawing stats from highly skilled, but far fewer data points.
 
I don't think using statistics at 1760 are incredibly accurate. I'm not sure if it's drawn above or below that number (there's no one at 1760 or even above 1700 rn except me and Anaconja) Off the top of my head I can only think of 9 people that can consistently get to 1760 (I belive 3 of those are inactive currently) and when you draw statistics from such a small base youre measuring preference more than anything else. Almost everyone who gets to 1760 is either one of those people or an Alt. Case in point I have 5 accounts above 1700 at time of writing, so while it might look like there's a large userbase that high it's actually pretty small.
fyi the 1760 doesn't refer to ELO, it's Glicko if I'm not mistaken which is shown in the 5th column on the ladder, and quite a few people are above this threshold
 
Glicko seems kinda weird, since that means the current rank 47 as of this writing is 1720, which means he doesn't count. However, current rank 500 is 1939 and therefore does.

...granted, I dunno how Glicko relates to ladder calculations. Granted #2, there's almost 300 people at precisely 1500 ELO, so I assume those are all alts who decayed to the lowest decayable ELO, so shrug.

Either way, at the very least it's always worth considering how bans impact lower ladder, which is a different ecosystem most of the time. Yeah, they're not the most skilled players, but there's also a lot of new players. And if the low ladder meta is hell to play through, people don't play and the ladder dies. Yeah, BH is one of the biggest OMs, but it's still pretty small considering 280 of our top players (assuming no alts) are inactive.



Doom and gloom warnings aside, set-up is still likely an issue, but addressing sleep and mold breaker moves I think would bring it under control by proxy. Set-up wasn't really a problem in the past two generations and we actually got a couple of walls we really needed this gen (Zygarde and Solgaleo), so it's safe to assume the set-up moves themselves aren't the issue, IMO. Sleep ought to go first considering the current discussion. As long as Gen VIII doesn't get announced, we potentially have plenty of time to handle the next thing.



Storm Eagle And as for sharing opinions, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to share the popular opinions to farm likes and protect your reputation! And then make the occasional snarky post for lots of bonus likes!
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Another thing about sleep clause vs. sleep ban that I've noticed is that even with a sleep clause, the problem of sleep+setup still isn't fixed. What's more is that in this situation the mon doesn't even need to necessarily use a sleep move to pull it off, it just needs to make it seem like it might have/use a sleep move. As long as the opponent is stuck in a situation where they think they need to switch into a sleep fodder, this means that the user can potentially use that free turn to set up. The point here is that even with a sleep clause, the possibility of the existence of a sleep move can still force players into a coin flip situation where either the sweeper just puts the target in front of it to sleep and sets up, the player switches into a sleep fodder and the sweeper sets up predicting the switch, or the sweeper puts the sleep fodder to sleep and still sets up afterwards. In 2/3 of these situations I'm assuming the sleep user jumps way ahead in momentum just because of the favorable coin flip situation that they are in, and even in the third situation they still come out on top unless if the player actually has an answer for the threat after it sets up. Yes, before the sleep clause, the sleep user didn't even have that 1 in 3 "maybe-maybe not" unfavorable situation; but let's be honest here, it's still heavily in the sleep user's favor.

On the topic of competitiveness, there definitely do exist situations where you cannot beat a wall unless you use sleep AND get 3 turns of sleep. As I have already mentioned, Dazzling Mega Gengar absolutely needs 3 turns of sleep (sleep/setup on the switchin, setup/sleep for T1 of sleep, MgB/Judg for T2 and T3, and finally KO on the turn where the Kyogre would have been guaranteed to wake up) to beat RegenVest Ogre from full, otherwise The Kyogre can use Spectral Thief and potentially KO it. This isn't the only example either; Here's an example (turn 6) where PH Xerneas was able to trap and KO RegenVest Kyogre, a mon it shouldn't normally be able to KO, thanks to getting 3 turns of sleep. But it's still competitive because "What's to say that if you trap something and beat it with sleep that you can't already beat it without sleep?" Now since we are on this topic, I'll also add another observation: even if the Kyogre woke up on turn 9 and U-turned out, this still would have opened the door for a future sweep as the Kyogre would've been at 26% upon pivoting out and would have come back in at roughly 60%. The claim that "it's only uncompetitive if the wall gets KOed" is absolute nonsense.

Yesterday I started using a team revolving around hax (not sleep though, but this will still get my point across I promise). It started as me trying to get an alt account to a certain rating in preparation for an upcoming video, and ended with that team going 24-0 on the fresh account and almost peaking on another because of how much fun I had playing it. In some games I was amazed at how a simple full para would allow my PH Xerneas to bypass a wall that would otherwise check it, but then again it's not uncompetitive unless if the Xern uses the free turns to set up right? Here's another example of this where on turn 9, I trap the Kyogre with my PH Xerneas. Thanks to the 1 free turn provided by the full para, I was able to KO the Kyogre that I otherwise most likely couldn't have. Now you can only imagine what sleep could've done in that scenario, in addition to the fact that a 2-3 turn sleep is definitely a possibility whereas getting 2-3 turns of full paras in a row has a much lower chance than a 2-3 turn sleep.
 
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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

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I wasn't aware that Prankster isn't the most used ability for Giratina, Unaware and Prankster not being the most used abilities for Zygarde-C, Prankster not being the most used ability for Registeel, Unaware not being the most used ability for Mega Audino, Unaware not being the most used ability for Yveltal, nor Prankster not being the most used ability for Aegislash. Guess the usage stats at 1760 are wrong.

I also wasn't aware that Triage isn't nearly tied with Aerilate for usage on Mega Rayquaza, Dazzling not being nearly tied with Poison Heal for usage on Mega Mewtwo X, Dazzling not being the most used Mega Gengar ability, Shift Gear PH Regigigas not being the most used by a massive margin, Simple not being Mega Tyranitar's most used ability, Unburden not being Dusk Mane's most used ability by a massive margin, Poison Heal Xerneas not being used than all other abilities combined without QD being almost 50% usage across all sets, Contrary Mega Sceptile not being the most used set, Simple not being nearly tied in usage with Magic Bounce on Arceus, nor Coil not being the most used move on Mega Aerodactyl. Let's also not forget that there's no such thing as a Pokemon entirely used for setup... What could this Pokemon not be....
first off, deo a is a pretty irrelevant and bad mon, like coil aero (at least some of that usage was pressure shenanigans lol) so i don't think it should be brought up here.

secondly, yeah, we get it. people use setup. people use checks to setup. but that doesn't really back up your claim that setup is "necessary" on a team. 3 of my 4 omwc teams didn't use setup at all.
In all seriousness, I find it disingenuous that you try to claim that Smash and Quiver Dance aren't common enough to be on practically every team. Setup is so prevalent in BH that practically everyone thinks a standard team needs to have at least one setup mon.
no they don't, i've never heard anyone say this. yeah, setup is strong on hyper offense. it's strong on certain balance builds that use a breaker and a sweeper with the defensive core (like that one sample with cb kyub + ph xern + def core). but it isn't good on every type of balance, and its usefulness definitely fades out when you move towards hard stall. checks to setup, on the other hand, are necessary on every team, which i think would make a better argument.
Meanwhile, I can't really say that Sleep is such an overwhelming presence that 'every team should run it' like I can with setup. I'm not trying to divert the discussion towards setup but rather I believe the issue here is in setup rather than Sleep as Sleep amplifies the usefulness of setup. A Pokemon can't use Haze or Spectral Thief if it can't move at all, and Pokemon with setup can weasel their way out of being checked due to this.
yeah, sleep makes setup better. but doesn't this mean that setup would be easy to deal with if we restricted or banned sleep? you say that setup can use sleep to bypass potential checks, and by this logic it looks like sleep is the real issue here, because it makes setup unmanageable.
Yeah, this was my point in this thread. I don't see a downside to testing Sleep Clause. It's not like Sleep is an issue that needs immediate attention, even in its current state.
i think its a pretty big issue. check out this replay i collected a few minutes ago: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-844102412

this game really shows off the uncompetitiveness of sleep i think. ttar literally had no solid switchins besides shed, which died to pursuit early on, because they all lost to a specific move: the bouncer (and most other stuff) lost to smash on the switch, imposter lost to anything on the switch, and the prankster lost to anything if it had gotten knocked beforehand. but imposter could actually have beaten it after it came in the last time if it woke up after 2 turns. sleep is most definitely what made ttar unmanageable here, because it could set up on almost anything, and spore deterrents weren't safe switchins at all. this game was bad. i think sleep is definitely a problem.

another thing i want to say is that sleep isn't necessarily manageable even without setup. the most prominent examples of this are the fast ph users, mmx and phero (and zeraora if u want). the issue i have with these mons is that if you don't have the magic bounce/ph user that counters them, they can just put somebody to sleep every time they come in. this game was a good example of the other player basically not being able to accomplish anything because his sleep resist couldn't deal with my sleep user. sleep is overall just very uncompetitive in both team matchup issues and rng, so i think it should just be banned, or at the very least given a clause.
 

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