BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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E4 Flint i was looking at the poll and something i wondered was whether quickbanning species spam was an option.

i feel like in this case, the slow speed of suspects is really taking its toll on how much we'll be able to refine the meta before the gen ends. forcing us to choose between species spam and shed as something to suspect before the end of the gen feels like a bad solution.

there is really no good argument to be had on species spam. all that needed to be said has been said and all competent players are in agreement that species spam is dumb. ti's forme clause suggestion has gone without controversy. the only reason anyone is voting shed is because they want it gone too, and place a higher value on shed than forme clause.

as for shed, there's a really good debate to be had, and i'd honestly be on board with a shed suspect (which seems to be what will happen). the only issue i have with this is that choosing to suspect shed means giving up doing anything about species spam, and i dont think anyone wants that.
 
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GL Volkner

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E4 Flint i was looking at the poll and something i wondered was whether quickbanning species spam was an option.

i feel like in this case, the slow speed of suspects is really taking its toll on how much we'll be able to refine the meta before the gen ends. forcing us to choose between species spam and shed as something to suspect before the end of the gen feels like a bad solution.

there is really no good argument to be had on species spam. all that needed to be said has been said and all competent players are in agreement that species spam is dumb. ti's forme clause suggestion has gone without controversy. the only reason anyone is voting shed is because they want it gone too, and place a higher value on shed than forme clause.

as for shed, there's a really good debate to be had, and i'd honestly be on board with a shed suspect (which seems to be what will happen). the only issue i have with this is that choosing to suspect shed means giving up doing anything about species spam, and i dont think anyone wants that.
Can you reiterate what the pro species spam side's arguments are? Right now to me, it feels like a ban for convenience and because you guys don't wanna do the external scouting since PS should be doing it for you guys, which I kinda disagree with. In my experience, keeping track of HP percentage and moves revealed help a lot, and I don't really feel that species spam is problematic either. I've never really struggled with it, and whenever I've used it it's only really felt underwhelming. How is it any different than other forms of cheese? These are some of the questions I'd like answered. I'm not fully on board with a species clause (or any action, really) but maybe there was a discussion somewhere that I didn't know about. Nonetheless, I don't think a species clause is really worthy of an implementation and I'm sure there are others who share the same sentiment, but I'm open to changing my mind since I find Mewtwo spam just as exasperating as the next guy. I just haven't seen (m)any convincing arguments yet.
 
I think the main arguments against species spam are not that it is impossible to beat, or that its "too op" for the current meta. Rather when I think about it, there are two main arguments I see against it:

The first is that, like shed, it makes several games far more match up dependent (in my experience). Generally if they have enough mons that kill your prankster, they win, and if they fail to do so, they lose. I look at species spam in my mind a little like I viewed gengarite (again this is my opinion). Sometimes it's absolutely useless and doesn't do much at all, and sometimes it eliminates walls (and then the rest of the team via smash) that are weak due to matchup. I don't think things that push matchup harder are bad (or bannable) necessarily, but that's just how I look at it.

The second argument I see against species spam is it rewards low skill play(er)s. When playing species spam It is very very easy to be successful just by clicking. A person fighting a species spam team has to (again in my experience) play far better than their opponent does, because if they let the spammer have momentum it becomes quite difficult to win.

And lastly, I don't consider this as an argument per say, but I just see very little benefit that species spam gives to the meta. It does not reward skill either in the team or builder and is often very annoying to constantly fight against. HO is still very much possible without species spam, but it requires more skill to build a cohesive team with different mons than it does to build a team with 1. So when I look at species spam I see no redeeming qualities that make me want to keep it. Many people just do not want to play several games against species spam and I don't think that it helps attract new players to the meta.
 
Can you reiterate what the pro species spam side's arguments are?
sure

external scouting is rly not the issue at all, the problem is species spam being such a powerful matchup-reliant tool. powerful in the sense that its really annoying to distinctly prep for and is semi-consistent vs the meta, and matchup-reliant in that u can lose to spam without necessarily playing badly. ill need solid proof to be convinced otherwise on the playing part since you seem to hold different opinions on that.

in comparison, against other cheesy teams like generic hyper offense and weather, youre able to play around it more easily because the opponent has to use frail or passive pokemon to cover all their bases.
 

drampa's grandpa

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ill need solid proof to be convinced otherwise on the playing part since you seem to hold different opinions on that.
Since you are the one intent on changing the status quo you are the one with the burden of proof. IE the person who wants to make the change has to prove the thing broken / uncompetitive. This isn't a Smogon thing, just a rule of debate in general.

Since, IMO, so far arguments on both sides have been a bit lacking in substance, I personally think a QB would be unjustified at this point. That's not a competitive argument because I'm not really a BH player, but moreso saying that y'all haven't earned it yet, at least where I've seen.

You know how to make a ban argument good: high level replays, successful teams, and arguments / explanations.
 

E4 Flint

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I'm in agreement with vd and drampa that suspect is the best way forward. I prefer to be methodical rather than rushed and making a wrong decision. I still feel like none of the species clause arguments also address the teams that will be affected that have 2-3 copies of a single mon which are healthy, and which will be lost as collateral (see my last post about my thoughts on the clause a couple pages ago).

In addition, can we cut the unnecessary "all the competent players"? I've always striven to make bh more approachable and these type of statements make the comm sound elitist with no basis at all. Reqs exist as an official filter for semi-competent and active players, nor is one a competent player for voting a certain way for species clause, shell smash, shed, rayquaza, contrary or whatever else - or else we would see many more based on their past votes, wouldn't we.
 
I still feel like none of the species clause arguments also address the teams that will be affected that have 2-3 copies of a single mon which are healthy, and which will be lost as collateral (see my last post about my thoughts on the clause a couple pages ago).
I'll try to tackle this. No promises I'll hit everything or be 100% correct on everything I say or I'll nail what you're looking for.

The biggest "legit" playstyle impacted by species clause is double Imposter, since it limits a player to only one Eviolite Imposter. However, they can still run Imposter Blissey, which is better with non-Eviolite sets (I forget if Lucky Punch is Chansey-only or just the evo-line), so the biggest loss is the player not being able to bluff two Eviolite. I don't think the playstyle overall is super impacted, although players will react a little differently to the Blissey over the Chansey.

Another major impact is Imposter + Fur Coat Chansey, whose bluffing falls apart the moment both Chanseys have entered battle once. A user could easily fix it by running Imposter Blissey or Fur Coat Arceus (which I believe is the rivaling or next best mono-Normal Fur Coat user.)

Stepping away from Chansey, double/triple wall is something I've seen occasionally, but it's also a playstyle that I've never seen do too well unless they rolled into a strong match-up, like two Giratina against a team who relied on a solo MMX for offense or double Audino/Xerneas against a team that relied heavily on Core Enforcer. I don't think the collateral damage here is a big deal. Maybe there's a successful double wall/pivot team I'm overlooking though?

Lack of form clause over regular species hurts MMX+MMY teams the most as they have to find a new mon to replace one of them. MMX + MMY is a pretty legit archetype so that's a blow to the meta for most.* I can't think of a team I've seen that uses Duskmane + Solgaleo, Groudon + Primal Groudon, Giratina + Giratina-O, etc. Seen some multi-Arceus teams, but they've all been pretty bad and often don't realize they don't get the type without Plate + Multitype.

*Personally, I've felt MMX/Y have needed a suspect for years now, so I'd personally be okay with a blow to their viability. But too late to argue about that and the community never supported the idea.

There's some double/triple mon teams running three Dialga, 2-3 Kyogre, 2-3 Karta, 2-3 Diancie, 2-3 M-Ray (pre-ban), etc. IMO, these teams are largely a problem the clause seeks to correct since they tend to rely on threat stacking the same or similar sets to overwhelm a check or lure it out in a msiplay it would not have made if the other team had six mons due to scouting issues/match-ups/simulator bugs/etc.

Double Shedinja teams have, in my experience, been a joke and are hideously vulnerable to hazard shuffling, weather damage, moldy attacks/Pokemon, and so forth. Shedinja's 1-2 HP makes it very difficult to threat stack it and you pretty much have to build the entire rest of the team around both Shedinja.

There's the occasional defensive+offensive variant teams I've seen, like Fur Coat Kyogre + Prim Sea Kyogre or Simple Yveltal + Poison Heal Yveltal. Losing these is a blow, but they're also really rare so it's not a big one.


So, unless I'm forgetting anything or overlooking something, the only real notable collateral damage is double Imposter, Chansey + Imposter, and MMX + MMY with some minor hits to offense+defense variant teams. The only one that loses out particularly hard is MMX + MMY. Most of the other multi-mon teams tend to be either unviable or are part of the problem, in my experience from playing and watching replays.

If I missed something, someone correct me please.
 
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I'll try to tackle this. No promises I'll hit everything or be 100% correct on everything I say or I'll nail what you're looking for.

The biggest "legit" playstyle impacted by species clause is double Imposter, since it limits a player to only one Eviolite Imposter. However, they can still run Imposter Blissey, which is better with non-Eviolite sets (I forget if Lucky Punch is Chansey-only or just the evo-line), so the biggest loss is the player not being able to bluff two Eviolite. I don't think the playstyle overall is super impacted, although players will react a little differently to the Blissey over the Chansey.

Another major impact is Imposter + Fur Coat Chansey, whose bluffing falls apart the moment both Chanseys have entered battle once. A user could easily fix it by running Imposter Blissey or Fur Coat Arceus (which I believe is the rivaling or next best mono-Normal Fur Coat user.)

Stepping away from Chansey, double/triple wall is something I've seen occasionally, but it's also a playstyle that I've never seen do too well unless they rolled into a strong match-up, like two Giratina against a team who relied on a solo MMX for offense or double Audino/Xerneas against a team that relied heavily on Core Enforcer. I don't think the collateral damage here is a big deal. Maybe there's a successful double wall/pivot team I'm overlooking though?

Lack of form clause over regular species hurts MMX+MMY teams the most as they have to find a new mon to replace one of them. MMX + MMY is a pretty legit archetype so that's a blow to the meta for most.* I can't think of a team I've seen that uses Duskmane + Solgaleo, Groudon + Primal Groudon, Giratina + Giratina-O, etc. Seen some multi-Arceus teams, but they've all been pretty bad and often don't realize they don't get the type without Plate + Multitype.

*Personally, I've felt MMX/Y have needed a suspect for years now, so I'd personally be okay with a blow to their viability. But too late to argue about that and the community never supported the idea.

There's some double/triple mon teams running three Dialga, 2-3 Kyogre, 2-3 Karta, 2-3 Diancie, 2-3 M-Ray (pre-ban), etc. IMO, these teams are largely a problem the clause seeks to correct since they tend to rely on threat stacking the same or similar sets to overwhelm a check or lure it out in a msiplay it would not have made if the other team had six mons due to scouting issues/match-ups/simulator bugs/etc.

Double Shedinja teams have, in my experience, been a joke and are hideously vulnerable to hazard shuffling, weather damage, moldy attacks/Pokemon, and so forth. Shedinja's 1-2 HP makes it very difficult to threat stack it and you pretty much have to build the entire rest of the team around both Shedinja.

There's the occasional defensive+offensive variant teams I've seen, like Fur Coat Kyogre + Prim Sea Kyogre or Simple Yveltal + Poison Heal Yveltal. Losing these is a blow, but they're also really rare so it's not a big one.


So, unless I'm forgetting anything or overlooking something, the only real notable collateral damage is double Imposter, Chansey + Imposter, and MMX + MMY with some minor hits to offense+defense variant teams. The only one that loses out particularly hard is MMX + MMY. Most of the other multi-mon teams tend to be either unviable or are part of the problem, in my experience from playing and watching replays.

If I missed something, someone correct me please.
Solgaleo is not the same as Dusk-Mane, Dusk-Mane is officially Necrozma... I mean it’s literally within the name:
B260FFCB-CEB9-4497-B379-89CE0575441C.jpeg

I think you forgetting Necrozma-Ultra + Dusk-Mane / Dawn-Wings, Kyurem-Black (TC) + Kyurem-W (Refrigerate), and I believe the biggest universal threat for Defensive teams is the Ability Clause change that impacts dual Regenerators like RegenVest Kyogre-Primal, etc. as pivot teams can no longer loop for continuous stall and safe switches while healing. Other than that, dual Prankster, Unaware, Fur Coat are pretty unlikely on a team, but - I know PHeal duos are common enough due to the Defensive, yet Offensive nature (Facade) of the ability that allow say Kyogre-Primal and Slaking on the same team.

Your other points were okay though.
 
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OM! Mixed up on Necro there, yeah, though I've not seen any Ultra Necro + Dusk/Dawn in a long time and I can't think of a time I saw a decent or better team with Dusk + Dawn. Either way, Ultra + Dusk/Dawn still can make a trade to Ultra + Solga/Lunala without suffering a whole lot, if at all. TC Kyu-B + Fridge Kyu-B is also not something I've witnessed either. (Seen Skill Link + Fridge, but I was running that and it was a long time ago.) Though witnessing Fridge Kyu-B is already pretty uncommon in general.

I don't think Ability Clause changes are due for this generation. I imagine Flint's post was entirely Gen VIII related. And I, for one, welcome our single-ability-clause overlords. ...assuming it goes that route.


Anyway, I got locked out of the vote thread while typing this so... I suppose I'll put it here?

In addition, the species clause will be replaced with the forme clause as confirmed by The Immortal:
Woulda commented sooner, but the forums decided not to notify me of new replies here. Anyway, this feels a little... I dunno, I'm there's a specific word that's eluding me. Underhanded? Not quite but yes?

Either way, this feels a little off to be suddenly mass-changing votes right at the very end. Like, personally, I don't care too much between them since forme clause basically only means you can use MMX + MMY instead of not (which is, IMO, the only really good pair of formes to use on the same team 99% of the time). But not everyone would agree with my assessment, Forme Clause was still not really the thing that was proposed, and its not really the thing everyone was voting for either despite being very similar. I speak for nobody but myself, but knowing how things work around here, I'm sure there's some here who were okay with Species clause but not Forme clause who voted for Species clause for various reasons.

It'd be similar to like, I dunno, changing all the Shedinja votes to "Complex Ban Shedinja with Endeavor, Sturdy, and/or Focus Sash". Like, that'd pretty much insta-gib Shedinja's viability in the meta and effectively ban it, but it's not what the Shedinja crowd was voting for. Or like changing the Shell Smash votes to auto-include Belly Drum or replace them with "Shell Smash clause" votes or whatever.


IMO, if Species/Forme clause goes to suspect from here (I've not counted the votes), just run options of "Species Clause", "Forme Clause", and "Do Not Ban" with the two former counting towards the same total of doing something and, if they outweigh DNB enough, pick whichever is most popular. That'd avoid leaving any sour tastes in anyone's mouth from having their vote retconned here.
 

E4 Flint

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Think I'm going to have to disagree here Rumors. One of the issues with voting Species Clause is potentially having to use only one of the Mewtwo Megas, or Charizards (or Rotoms, genies etc). Forme Clause is therefore strictly superior in terms of causing less impact, as it lets you use multiples of these. I assumed that those who supported Species Clause would also support Forme Clause as it's basically a superset of what's being allowed. I did leave the poll a day longer because the announcement came kinda late.

I suppose you are correct that there may be a section of the voters that did not vote Species Clause only because you could use one of the multi-formes and there is also a section of the voters that would've wanted species clause but not have been ok with being allowed to use multi-formes. My answer is that I made the assumption that the section of voters that fall into this section is extremely small that I don't think redoing or doing a new poll would be necessary - however it is possible I'm mistaken and if so, people can post this viewpoint here and I can make a decision accordingly. Definitely don't want to pull anything underhanded.

E: Based on your feedback, left the poll thread open a few hours longer just in case someone does want to change their mind. Will close it in around 4 hours, which is midnight my time, and exactly one more day
 
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Think I'm going to have to disagree here Rumors. One of the issues with voting Species Clause is potentially having to use only one of the Mewtwo Megas, or Charizards (or Rotoms, genies etc). Forme Clause is therefore strictly superior in terms of causing less impact, as it lets you use multiples of these. I assumed that those who supported Species Clause would also support Forme Clause as it's basically a superset of what's being allowed. I did leave the poll a day longer because the announcement came kinda late.

I suppose you are correct that there may be a section of the voters that did not vote Species Clause only because you could use one of the multi-formes and there is also a section of the voters that would've wanted species clause but not have been ok with being allowed to use multi-formes. My answer is that I made the assumption that the section of voters that fall into this section is extremely small that I don't think redoing or doing a new poll would be necessary - however it is possible I'm mistaken and if so, people can post this viewpoint here and I can make a decision accordingly. Definitely don't want to pull anything underhanded.

E: Based on your feedback, left the poll thread open a few hours longer just in case someone does want to change their mind. Will close it in around 4 hours, which is midnight my time, and exactly one more day
Like we’ve said before, a limit of anything other than one is outside the norm. We want to remain in line with the general standards and fixing Ability Clause will be a step in that direction, whereas a custom Species Clause is a step backwards.

That said, I have come up with an alternate clause: Forme Clause. With the way BH works in regards to Formes being legal turn 1, such a Clause would make sense for this meta. And it does not have to arbitrarily be limited to 2 but can follow the standard usage of clauses where the limit is 1. Thus, Forme Clause would be defined as “Only one of the same Pokémon Forme can be used”. I believe this Forme Clause tackles the same concerns the proposed 2 Species Clause did.
Why not just edit the original poll and / or make the announcement when The Immortal first acknowledged it?

I even had a follow up post asking for finalization.
This is an option on the poll, it’s “Other”.

I basically said having 2 Pokemon as a limit a while back, (yours is based on Pokedex #, mine is based on form, such as 2 MMX & 2 MMY, not just the Pokedex #) and using a single shiny of the two keeps the coding from overlapping Movesets.

Anyways, your idea is close enough to what I wanted and I’ll change my vote from No Ban, to “2 x Species with what a loser said.”

But honestly, I do feel using a Shiny check allows people to not have the move stacking issue, and it won’t obligate a MMX + MMY limit.

——————

EDIT: For some reason it didn’t show E4 Flint or the The Immortal posts until now.

The Immortal are we changing the Species Clause poll option to a Forme Clause?

^ Your reply will impact the voting poll itself.

Beyond Mewtwo (MMX + MMY), and Necrozma (Dusk-Mane + Necromoza-Ultra), Kyurem (B+W), Deoxys (Attack + Speed), and niche offensive Aegislash & Giratina forms, what else is meta relevant?

Can’t people just use the different forms of some Pokemon, without type/ability/base stat changes?

Look at Magearna’s other form (only an aesthetic change), Arceus, etc? Different Arceus Formes without the Plate/Multi-type are still the same Pokemon... and type.

Even if it’s based on Multi-type, if you have an Arceus Normal-type without Multi-type (for ability clause), and an additional Arceus with Plate+Multi-type (a literal Forme change), does that count?

See? Now we need complex bans even for your proposed Forme Clause, as people can have multiples of the same Pokemon only different in appearance.

Your idea needs to cover these bases too.

Also for Gen 8, with the 1 Ability Clause, do we need to count all -ates and Galvanize as an ability because having Refrigerate + Pixelate, etc. with 1 ability limits on defensive abilities, like Soundproof, Regenerator, etc. available will be an eventual concern.

I guess I’ll maintain my vote, for now, as do nothing then. Until the Species Vs Forme clause is finalized.

Lastly, since Gen 8 will ban Mega Stones, and Z-move Crystals (No Necrozma-Ultra), that means Mewtwo, Charizard, and Necromoza will no longer be a Species / Forme clause concern for Sword and Shield.

Kyurem-B+W might be the only BH actual Relevant beneficiary, barring Gen 8 additions.*

*I don’t believe people typically use them on the same team, but just the most likely Pokemon reason to keep it Forme Clause over Species Clause in Gen 8.
My reasoning is, not everyone who voted might have seen The Immortal’s post, since this is a separate thread and people probably voted just based on the description of options in the voting thread only, and we didn’t know if it was happening or not until like yesterday. Like my post literally said “I guess I’ll maintain my vote, for now, as do nothing then. Until the Species Vs Forme clause is finalized.” And then no one said anything to explain or Officially make it so.

I don’t think it was necessarily “underhanded”, but it just would have been more clear to everyone involved, especially as I directly addressed it and directly explained it would change my vote...

It’s more about the “why” it was announced late, than the “why” it was changed. I only got a follow up by the Immortal - after I made sure to address it in the voting thread right after the sudden announcement.
——————Anyways. Good luck to everyone on getting the results they truly want - before Midnight!

P.S. Flint, the poll listed the Forme Clause title correctly, but the description reads “choose one of each form” without the “e”.
Stuff like this sparked my inquiry for The Immortal to have to define the difference between Form and Forme, but for many people who just see they can edit their vote, they may end up confusing the two based on the OP of the voting thread.
926C673C-9C2C-499B-8A1D-731C0655421A.jpeg


I don’t wish to come across as diminishing, just acknowledging the impact this had. You are a good person, you know that.

E4:updated the description, thanks
 
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Flint, since this is the final suspect of Gen 7, and a lot of “final things”, I just wanted to remind you that we will all be very proud of your, The Immortal (to an extent) and Ransei contributions in the leadership throughout this generation.

We may be leaving Alola, but we will be heading to Galar with a lot of great memories you all helped build! Thanks for all of your support, both here and elsewhere!

P.S. Honorable Mentions:
drampa's grandpa for contributing leadership quality posts (like the one just a few above this one)

OM room For Twinsies ;) and for being a healthy mod on Discord. You might have the room, and I might have the !, but we are both OM people.

motherlove You were at times a sole virtuous defender of good, meaning even if it wasn’t popular opinion. You never lost your clout while doing so, and I maintain respect. You are a source of light even in the presence of Darkrais. You also can create teams like a snap of finger and let us share on your tactics. Kind and smart, perfect for your continuous contributions.

MAMP The Original Mega Ampharos, and the most vigilant of defenders, you didn’t just sit back and watch, you engaged with the community in both off topic dialogue and on topic conversation. Oh ya... and Mamp is a champ - both in battle, and in Discord!

I also want to thank, directly Gmansour20, Storm Eagle, and Mickle314 For taking the Monster out of Pocket Monsters, and being genuine, good human beings. Suddenly the internet is no longer a “web”, but a positive experience.

Lastly, but not Gastly. I want to thank all other people. I truly grew a lot during this generation. And want to say I am happy that it is over! But I am also happy for what I contributed and learned from others. It may have been an uphill battle, but I do give credit where it is due, and thank all of your individual contributions within this community for what you offered. Go Everyone not mentioned above! ;)

EDIT: I wanted to keep this one as a surprise.
Willdbeast - For being a nice and supportive person who can always make jokes about his hooves, and never take himself too seriously! He may be wild, and he may be a beast. But you cannot spell “beast” without “best” ;)
 
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We have already said that using niche stuff that don't check anything else isn't making Rayquaza any less broken. You can run all sort of mons that check it and then you lose to every other threat in the meta such as MGar and MMX.

Not only is this completely false, the reasoning is also laughable, basically you are saying that if A counters/checks B then A should be higher ranked than B. So by your logic Yveltal should be ranked higher than NDM in Ubers, Skarmory higher than Lando-T in OU, and Arceus-Electric higher than MegaRay in BH.

Can you read? First the calcs are legit so actually calc the stuff before saying stuff like this. Also it literally says +1 there???? You thinking that the calcs are wrong is proof that you have not played the meta very frequently (as anyone who has used or faced ray should know the rough damage Imposter takes).

To make this not a one-liner that might get deleted, I thought I would talk about the thing after Ray, which is Shed (I think Species Clause should be quick implemented, personally prefer a limit of 2 but 1 is perfectly ok too, as long as it goes through). The main part of Shed I will analyze is the impact it has on teambuilding.


Defensive Restrictions.
Due to Endeavor, every team usually must have a Ghost-type to not lose a mon every time Shed comes in. The two problems with this is that Ghost-type Pokemon are generally difficult to improof, and there aren't a lot of these Ghost-type mons, and even they lose to Shedinja often, despite being immune to Endeavor. Here we will take a look at the useable Ghosts in the meta and how they deal with Shed (Excluding Shed itself).


The go-to Ghost for most teams thanks to its general high viability and role compression.
Common sets: Prankster, Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, RegenVest.
- Prankster Tina can only threaten Shedinja with the subpar Will-O-Wisp or Poison Fang (maybe Rocks but they can just go to the mandatory Bouncer), while having a big 4MSS due to only having 2 free moveslots and one of them is typically Core. In addition, Shed just sets free rocks.
- Magic Bounce Tina prevents Shed from setting rocks which is nice, however it again struggles to fit a move to threaten Shed. Due to already wanting to run Dual STAB, Recovery, and Defog, it also has big 4MSS. The only decent move it can run to threaten Shed is Poison Fang, as Will-O-Wisp is extremely suboptimal on MB. Scald can work but is even more niche.
- Poison Heal Tina has passive recovery which is useful for negating stuff like hazards chip such as from the rocks from Shed it cannot prevent. It does have the option of running Will-O-Wisp as a very solid move to threaten Shed. This set also has the advantage of being Imposter-proof if it is running Shield over Recovery.
- RegenVest Tina has Regenerator which can also shrug off some chip damage. However it is also free rocks (Rapid Spin is not good at all) for Shed, and is even more Imposter-bait. It can fit a move to threaten Shed such as Poison Fang thanks to not running Recovery freeing up a slot.


This is the second most splashable Ghost (which definitely says something about the number of good ghosts). Its also the most viable offensive ghost.
Common sets: Normalize, Shell Smash, Mold Breaker, Choice Adapt.
Note that basically all Gengar sets lack recovery so they get chipped down with U-turn, hazards, and even Pursuit. In addition, they are all free Rocks.
- Normalize Gengar's problem is that it cannot threaten Shed at all before it Entrains it. This means that even if it catches Shed on the double Shed gets a free turn.
- Shell Smash Gengar cannot threaten Shedinja (LOL) outside of Sludge Bomb Poison which some don't even run (they just run Sword). Imagine being an offensive Ghost hard walled by Shed while it chips you down with 10 million U-turns.
- Mold Breaker Gengar is a nice answer to Shed and is even one of the more reliable answers if it runs Pursuit. However running Mold Breaker means you can't run something else and running Pursuit means you forgo either Sword or Sludge.
- Choice Adapt carry Moongeist which directly threatens Shed but you can be predicted to get locked into Moongeist. The drawback of Geist over Judg of being not imposter-proof is also annoying sometimes.


This is the second best defensive Ghost, not even going to talk about how this mon is so trash that it checks basically nothing. Oh and its bigger Imposter-bait than Giratina because Imposter has bigger bulk and Aegislash has 0 offensive presence. It cannot even use one move (PFang) to threaten both Shed and Imp.
Common sets: Prankster, Flash Fire.
- Prankster has basically no room for any move to threaten Shed because as a suboptimal mon unlike Giratina it already needs an extra utility move apart from Haze such as Encore, Topsy, or DBond. Free rocks too. Can't even usually fit Rocks because if its only U-turn its passive af and if its Spectral it has 0 momentum.
- Flash Fire is better at checking Shed because it can run Wisp and Defog viably but if you are already not doing as good because you are running this set, like why aren't you another Steel that isn't actually Imposter bait. This set is worse than Prankster because it just gets 2HKOed by a lot of stuff.

The above are the common Ghosts, there is a big usage drop here. Not basing the good sets on usage because now the used sets aren't very good.

This is like the next most used Ghost, using 1760 stats at 49th. The big advantage of this mon is that it underspeeds Shed, so that Shed cannot just do whatever and slow pivot out. Unfortunately isn't as viable as the above Ghosts and also is neutral to U-turn. Imposter also has big bulk.
Common sets: Poison Heal, Magic Bounce, Fur Coat.
- Poison Heal is usually Imposter-proof which is nice, and carries Will-O-Wisp regularly which threatens Shed. Also has the passive recovery to mitigate U-turn and hazards chip. Is free rocks though and doesn't carry removal.
- Magic Bounce prevents Rocks from going up which is nice. Pretty noticeable Imposter-bait and has the same problems as Giratina with fitting moves that are good and force out shed.
- Fur Coat is like Magic Bounce but it takes less from U-turn but it doesn't prevent Rocks.


The next offensive Ghost.
Common set: Tough Claws.
- Tough Claws runs Sunsteel Strike which threatens out Shed but first is that this mon isn't that great and also has similar problems with Choice Gar.

+

The next offensive Ghosts.
Common sets: IDK.
- Can run Photon along with Judg to be Imposter-proof and still threaten Shed. Also can run Moongeist as well. Neutrality to U-turn sucks. Also the big question is why are you running these in the first place???

+

These aren't Ghosts but these can run Sand Stream pretty viably which instakills Shed. Problem is you are at 1 HP if you hard switched and doesn't work very well if they U-turn (great if they go for rocks though). Sand also has the cool thing of boosting offensive mons SpD like Aero and Diancie.
- Sand TTar is probably its best set rn and apart from killing Shed it also gives amazing extra bulk which allows it to survive some really crazy stuff such as not getting 2HKOed by SF EP MMY. Sand also chips offensive mons down which is cool too.
- Sand Nihi is much more rare but is a solid Diancie Xern Gar and Ray check. Problem is it generally wants Levitate.

There are other stuff that can switch into Endeavor and live ESpeed but those are just kinda bad because your mon is crippled and cannot do anything while still leaving the Shed perfectly healthy (it even gets free rocks because all of these mons cannot run MB and still live I believe).

Conclusion:
Basically there aren't very good switch-ins to Shed at all as you either let it get free Rocks and/or slow pivot and/or you cannot threaten it without forgoing some useful move.

Offensive Restrictions:
There are a couple of ways to deal with Shed as an offensive mon. Moldy Moves, Moldy, Status moves, Status/Passive damage inducing moves, and hazards.


Moldy Moves:
Sungeist Geyser is the most straight forward way of dealing with Shed on offensive mons. The main problem with running these moves (apart from not allowing you to use your own Shed to improof) is that they don't offer much coverage usually. In addition they are commonly run on Choiced sets, which are obviously exploitable seeing unless they are STAB they are generally weak. The PP is also annoying.
- Sungeist Geyser as STAB is generally really good as they are pretty strong already. However there aren't a lot of mons that run these as STAB moves. Excluding Moongeist (Ghosts are already covered) you have Kartana and sometimes NDM using Sunsteel and MMX, MMY, Deo-A, and sometimes NDM using Photon. For the special Psychics they sometimes don't even run Photon in favour of Psystrike, Psycho Boost, or Psychic for SF.
- Photon Geyser is never used outside of STAB as it has horrendous offensive coverage.
- Sunsteel Strike notably has no immunities which is nice for setup and it also is the go-to physical Moldy. However Steel is not a great offensive typing at all as it has common resistances like Steel Water Fire and doesn't hit a lot of targets super effectively, only hitting Rocks and Fairies such as Xerneas, Mega Audino, and Mega Tyranitar which aren't the best defensive mons anyways (Xern is lol, Mega Dino isn't usually used as a check to strong offensive mons, and TTar is better hit with Fighting or Ground moves usually). The only good coverage Sunsteel gives is on Dark types with setup to hit Fairies (and ofc Shed).
- Moongeist Beam is also not great coverage despite Ghost types great coverage. Only hitting Psychic and Ghosts types isn't fantastic, as despite these types being fairly common the only time this coverage is valued is on MMX and maybe MMY as the best way to hit fat Psychics and Aegi. Giratina is so fat it doesn't even care too much about unSTAB Moongeist. An immunity and being resisted by Dark isn't great at all. Rayquaza doesn't even want to use this half the time on Specs if it wasn't for Shed, and Triage only uses it to smack Unawares (which are bad) (and shed).


Moldy:
Mold Breaker is often not as useful on offensive mons because Unaware and FC are getting much worse (MGar Moldy isn't great rn and is only really good at killing Shed). In fact apart from Gengar no other common offensive mon commonly runs Moldy.


Status Moves:
Status Moves aren't very good on offensive mons as they want as much coverage as possible. Generally the only time you will see these moves is on PH mons like MMX and Primal Kyogre. Xerneas doesn't even run Status Moves that damage Shed usually. MMX runs Wisp sometimes which is good but MMX is already not letting Shed in usually. Primal Kyogre rarely runs Leech Seed but offensive PH Ogre isn't usually letting Shed in either so...


Status/Passive damage inducing moves:
The common moves in this category are Scald, Magma Storm, Blue Flare, maybe Steam Eruption (Sludge Bomb is basically only used by Gar). Scald offensively only used on PH Ogre and honestly Scald PH Ogre is kinda weak and imo Spout is better. Magma Storm is a useful move as nice coverage and guaranteed kill shed but its lower base power compared to Flare and Shaky accuracy is annoying. Blue Flare has a very low chance of proccing and magma is usually better (fire isn't even that great of coverage rn). Steam Eruption is hardly ever used and is only on Specs Ogre or Palkia which are both very very rare.


Hazards:
Probably the best way to remove Shed, as it prevents it from ever coming in once they are up. Offensive mons are usually the only way to get hazards up against Shed teams anyways because of the strong hazard control. The problem with hazards is it takes up a moveslot and is also more difficult to improof. In addition many offensive mons cannot even get hazards up against shed teams or will get them removed (not to mention that the hazard setting mon usually cannot break the team and will rely on a teammate). For reference the setters are PH mons (all usually threaten shed anyways), PDon, Tech MMX, Diancie, and miscellaneous choiced mons.

Conclusion:
Offensively its difficult to fit moves to threaten shed and generally offensive mons either forgo another coverage move or rely on hazards up, which is kind of difficult to maintain against shed teams. Furthermore the mons that can fit an offensive mons are often choice locked and will rely on predictions (which are removed if the shed team runs regenvest).

TLDR:
Shed is very restrictive on teambuilding as it not only forces every team to run certain mons but it also heavily impacts what moves offensive mons run which are often in comparison sub optimal. Basically suspect shed asap after ray.
You forget mold breaker hazards which mega-tyranitar and deoxys speed use very well.

I would also add the more gimmicky but still possible way to handle shedinja called moves that can remove sturdy, like entrainment or skill swap, mostly because that's how mega gengar normalize can kill shed

However, most of these examples will remain relevant even if shedinja end-up being banned because they aren't used only for shedinja, but also to beat stall.

Mega audino being weak to only very powerfull sunsteel strike users, or those that manage to set-up.

Giratina being weak to strong stab moongeist beam, but also the fact that it check very well MMX will still be there.
Also the fact that moongeist beam itself is the strongest stab that mega gengar can use. (with a specs it's still stronger than spooky plate judgment)

For the case of photon geyser, it is the strongest psychic stab besides sheer force psychic or tinted lens psycho boost for MMY.

Magic bounce will still be relevant because stall can be overwhelmed by hazards even without shedinja. (so mold breaker hazards will still be relevant for that reason)
Weathers will still be relevant because: sand increase the special bulk of rock types and activate weather abilities like sand rush, hail allow the usage of aurora veil to set-up in front of strong attackers like specs pixilate diancie.

I believe for these reasons that a meta without shed won't be different from what it is currently, maybe some random sets won't have mold breaker moves on them, but they aren't viable so whatever.
 
I've considered doing some lengthy write-up on why I believe Shedinja should not be banned, and I started one, but I can't really find the motivation to finish it. Nor do I think it would have much of an impact on voters who have already decided to vote ban. Basically I was going to talk about how every countermeasure to Shedinja has other viable use in the metagame and against non-Shedinja teams but I was getting bored just putting it together.

I do find it interesting that this suspect is taking place so very late in the generation, though. Being launched an exact month before the release of Gen 8 with the suspect period ending tomorrow means that we might get a full week of Gen 7 after the voting ends. It reminds me of OU banning Sablenite the day before SM came out. I didn't get why they did that. We still don't know what new stuff we will get in the new generation or how it will affect the viability of multiple mons in BH.

I wasn't here for the very beginning of this generation, so I'm not sure how the former gen's bans were handled. But if Shedinja being banned next week means that it is banned at the start of Gen 8 as well, then I think something is wrong with that. But if a Shedinja ban doesn't carry over, then what is the point of banning it now?
 
I've considered doing some lengthy write-up on why I believe Shedinja should not be banned, and I started one, but I can't really find the motivation to finish it. Nor do I think it would have much of an impact on voters who have already decided to vote ban. Basically I was going to talk about how every countermeasure to Shedinja has other viable use in the metagame and against non-Shedinja teams but I was getting bored just putting it together.

I do find it interesting that this suspect is taking place so very late in the generation, though. Being launched an exact month before the release of Gen 8 with the suspect period ending tomorrow means that we might get a full week of Gen 7 after the voting ends. It reminds me of OU banning Sablenite the day before SM came out. I didn't get why they did that. We still don't know what new stuff we will get in the new generation or how it will affect the viability of multiple mons in BH.

I wasn't here for the very beginning of this generation, so I'm not sure how the former gen's bans were handled. But if Shedinja being banned next week means that it is banned at the start of Gen 8 as well, then I think something is wrong with that. But if a Shedinja ban doesn't carry over, then what is the point of banning it now?
In the event people play this game from Old Gen Other Metagames..

This provides the same continuation that people justified when they found glitches, move combinations, and clause changes to Gen 1 mechanics, Gen 2 (Growth Vaporeon).

This thread may be archived along with the game, but it will likely prolong usefulness for anyone playing Gen 7 BH in the future.

Also, many people will not like Gen 8, removing Z-moves, Megas, Ultra and Primal forms. For example, Entrain Normalize fast Ghost-types wouldn’t have to worry about Z-moves bypassing Normalize, as we currently have with Diancie-Mega and Zygarde-Complete Vs Gengar-Mega, and thus they may return to their comfort zone.

Lastly, with how this generation has unprecedentedly prevented leaks on most Pokemon for this long, it could take several weeks to identify all of the mechanics and changes (moveset / ability / item for Species-specific things) before we can establish a metagame. Gen 7 might end, but the metagame still lives on until the day no one plays it anymore.
 

E4 Flint

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magnet pull meta was absolute garbage for a few reasons, one of them being that strat that got you a 1/5 chance to win every turn vs a team with non-shed shell imposter (phazing + double magnet pull + acupressure heal pulse). also steels are already really bad

magnet pull is just really lame and matchup dependent while offering pretty much nothing competitive. i dont really know what your argument to bring it back would be.
 
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