BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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Iloveweather said:
Would priority blocking abilities such as Dazzling be banned? They could become a huge problem if a pokemon sets up and can't be stopped easily.
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There are actually several answers to Dazzling/Queenly Majesty. An Unaware mon is a decent way to stop them, barring something like Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike popping into existence ofc (just pick a mon that can tank them), and they're already decent as-is; hell you can run Spectral Thief on these if you want to really punish your opponent. Prankster Haze is also a good way to deal with set-up in general in this meta due to priority taking a hit due to stuff like this, Psychic Terrain, and Dark-types being immune to Prankster-boosted targeting moves. Depending on the mon, Imposter may also help. Lastly, really bulky mons in general are also useful because they might be able to take a boosted hit, depending on the mon/set, and retaliate accordingly. There are, ofc, more niche answers (hi random sash!), but these are the best I can think of off the top of my head.

as for CFZ moves please get rid of these you can tell they're bad when I have to run a Volt Absorb Yvel on my team to be able to deal with them reliably even with a Prank regi that doesn't get 2HKO'd by genesis supernova (barring a crit) and 10 MV Tbolt; reasons are same as everyone else has stated so no need to repeat those right?
 
Spectral Thief can't deal with Simple Arceus, Prankster anything fails vs Dazzling/QM. Either way if QM/Dazzling go, then so does Psychic Surge for being basically the same thing. Once those go, dear sweet mother of fuck will Triage have to go as well (Priority MRay OWing is just a little busted with no way to block i). Right now I believe all of these elements healthily play against each other. Take one away and the balance is lost and all of it will have to go.
 
Imo the things that need to banned run as follows, CFZ moves for obvious reasons, sunsteel strike, and psychic terrain. My main problem with sunsteel strike is not so much the move itself, but the fact that it perpetuates exceedingly dumb strategies. I don't think people should be rewarded by brainless sets and shell smash/belly drum + sunsteel/powertrip can kill a lot. The only things i can think that reliably wall it after it has set up are chansey (which isnt true if it is unburden) innards out and prankster destiny bond. The only one of those that can switch in is innards out meaning the others result in -2 mons for 1 mon. The fact that this set can achieve this is really appalling because it has almost infinite flexibility and can be used on almost and mon. Furthermore, banning or limiting sunsteel would only hurt 1 non troll set that i can think of, solgaleo, and it doesn't really hurt solgaleo that much. Getting rid of sunsteel would make shell smash sets still dangerous, but still reasonably wall-able. They could be walled by unaware audino/chansey now, and if they began running mold breaker, they would be forced to take the speed tie with imposter chansey, which could be circumvented by things like nuzzle and tailwind. Also, the fact that these mons are running mold breaker would be a tip off that they are running a smash set. Basically it comes down to the fact that nothing has immunity to steel and there are mons with immunity to ghost.

Psychic terrain is probably the thing I'm most irritated about. Basically, it functions exactly the same as protean mmy. Instead of king's shield to block priority, it now has terrain which blocks far more than king's shield ever did. Instead of stab it now has 1.5 psychic boost which, when paired with CFZ can amount to the same thing as stab. instead of ghost judge, it now has moongeist, freeing up an item slot and dealing with shed simultaneously. Basically it is infinitely harder to deal with than protean mmy which is now banned. With protean mmy i could say bluff an espeed with an ate, switch to registeel, and encore the king's shield. But for some reason that probably has nothing to do with terrain, ate and prankster are now non existent. That is a problem. Prankster is what balanced the metagame in gen 6 and made stuff like simple geomancy unviable. Even if mewtwo dies, the terrain stays, opening the way for further BS on other mons that I can't encore. And it isnt like your opponent loses anything, if they have terrain and are intelligent, they won't have priority. I'm fine with dazzling because that can be countered far more easily due to decreased psychic power, and it can be neutralized by core enforcer. And most importantly, IT DOES NOT AFFECT OTHER MONS.
 
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Hey,

I don't know if it's still being discussed, I assume so. When it comes to z-moves why isn't the most obvious choice Banning Leppa Berry? Leppa Berry leads to two uncompetitive/broken strategies Endless battles and CFZ. If we banned Leppa berry it would mean

  • Z-moves are significantly nerfed but stay in the tier, you'd essentially be limiting yourself by running four of them.
  • Z-moves are still viable and can be used to break holes in your opponents team.
  • Endless battle clause isn't needed at all, and won't be an issue again.
  • Instead of complex banning, or banning z-moves as a whole we ban one stupid, uncompetitive, annoying Berry.
sticker,375x360.u5.png sticker,375x360.u5.png sticker,375x360.u5.png sticker,375x360.u5.png sticker,375x360.u5.png
BAN BERRY​
 
Grains of Salt said:
Hey,

I don't know if it's still being discussed, I assume so. When it comes to z-moves why isn't the most obvious choice Banning Leppa Berry? Leppa Berry leads to two uncompetitive/broken strategies Endless battles and CFZ. If we banned Leppa berry it would mean

  • Z-moves are significantly nerfed but stay in the tier, you'd essentially be limiting yourself by running four of them.
  • Z-moves are still viable and can be used to break holes in your opponents team.
  • Endless battle clause isn't needed at all, and won't be an issue again.
  • Instead of complex banning, or banning z-moves as a whole we ban one stupid, uncompetitive, annoying Berry.
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1. endless battles still exist in bh without leppa berry
2. z-moves are still an issue on sets that aren't running leppa berry -- they are unhealthy even with just 1 pp
 
Grains of Salt said:
Hey,

I don't know if it's still being discussed, I assume so. When it comes to z-moves why isn't the most obvious choice Banning Leppa Berry? Leppa Berry leads to two uncompetitive/broken strategies Endless battles and CFZ. If we banned Leppa berry it would mean

  • Z-moves are significantly nerfed but stay in the tier, you'd essentially be limiting yourself by running four of them.
  • Z-moves are still viable and can be used to break holes in your opponents team.
  • Endless battle clause isn't needed at all, and won't be an issue again.
  • Instead of complex banning, or banning z-moves as a whole we ban one stupid, uncompetitive, annoying Berry.
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MAMP said:
1. endless battles still exist in bh without leppa berry
2. z-moves are still an issue on sets that aren't running leppa berry -- they are unhealthy even with just 1 pp
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In addition to what Mamp said, there's also the fact that that isn't the only way to get multiple of a z-move. As of the current implementation on PS! (ih8ih8sn0w is this a bug?), Sleep Talk can call Z-Moves, meaning that Comatose or Rest sets can also have multiple of a given z-move. Thus, banning leppa A) doesn't solve the problem of multiple z-move use, B) still requires that every switchin take 25% or less from the attacker (Guardian of Alola) which is just really dumb, and C) doesn't stop pokemon from invalidating bulk with ridiculous BP.
 
Quantum Tesseract said:
In addition to what Mamp said, there's also the fact that that isn't the only way to get multiple of a z-move. As of the current implementation on PS! (ih8ih8sn0w is this a bug?), Sleep Talk can call Z-Moves, meaning that Comatose or Rest sets can also have multiple of a given z-move. Thus, banning leppa A) doesn't solve the problem of multiple z-move use, B) still requires that every switchin take 25% or less from the attacker (Guardian of Alola) which is just really dumb, and C) doesn't stop pokemon from invalidating bulk with ridiculous BP.
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Sleep talk cannot call z-moves, but it can call whirlwind (idr where specifically that was mentioned, but might as well leave that here)
 
Sleep Talk isnt supposed to be able to call Z-Moves? Thats something that needs fixed then, can confirm Quantum Tesseract's experience as I saw and stole for myself the set. Though Comatose Deo-S with only Sleep Talk/Whirlwind is a bit of a bitch with Rocks out as you need priority to deal with it. Given how Deo-A can do something ridiculous like call Last Resort with it too while being immune to all forms of Big Five status, I'd consider scrutinizing Comatose in its entirety, it can lead to some bonkers shit.
 
Personally I find Exclusive CFZ (I propose to call them ECFZ) an unhealthy addition to the game. They can be slapped on anything and you cannot really counter them because a skilled player won't spam them blindly. Once hacked they just perform like normal moves, they just have 1 pp; this allow the weirdest shit to work and I don't like that, leppa berry gimmick included. I propose to ban ECFZ without the correct crystal and the correct user; the problem will solve itself.
 
I think we all agree that, right now, the meta needs some change in one way or another. Here are, in my opinion, the three bans that would make the meta healthier

1/ Water bubble: the fact that, in order to have a reliable check, you must run an ability whose only function is to check it, is dumb. In addition, the new move core enforcer makes it even more annoying due to the ability to hit potential counters such as giratina or the semi-viable Water absorb primal groudon. Having to run xerneas or magearna over other better defensive mons such as solgaleo even adds to the issue.
This ability is overcentralizing (since it forces to run a niche set on every balance team), while not adding anything to the metagame (while shedinja and Chansey are great diversity inducers)

2/ Comatose: comatose is an extremely niche ability, that would only be good on 'mons that want both status immunity and power increasing items, and fear nuzzle/scald so much that they do not want to use magic bounce. Otherwise, Comatose turns into a hugely uncompetitive ability due to the combination of sleep talk+shuffling.
While it does have some counters, it has a way to bypass all of them: psychic terrain for priority, dragon tail/circle throw for magic bounce.
What probably is the biggest issue is that it is highly unpredictable and requires very little dedicated support. Almost any pokemon with over 90 speed can succesfully run a comatose scarf set. As long as it doesn't come out, it is impossible to know if you can sacrifice your magic bouncer. What adds to the issue is the fact that said magic bouncer will often be something like giratina that checks some much stuff that it can be easy to overthrow via a coverage move. Finally, the fact that hazards are required for the set to work efficiently isn't even such an issue, as they benefit any team immensely.
Basically, comatose addition to the metagame is strictly negative, as it brings very little competitive sets while being potentially extremely frustrating (the simple fact that a new player could not be able to act for 16 turns consecutively makes it ban worthy since you can be sure that player is never coming back to BH).

3/ Psychic surge: deoxys-A spam/genesis supernova/MMY is a known issue, that is quite tricky to fix. My proposition is to ban psychic surge because:
- it fixes the problem of deoxys-A spam: water shuriken single-handedly destroys these teams without psychic surge. Yes, there is still some counterplay, such as using fakespeed galvanize deoxys-A, but water shuriken is already decent on many specially offensive mons (such as palkia). Consequently, the resource necessary to take it on would either be too important, or bring enough diversity that this archetype would just be one of the many "let's spam the same mon with different sets" teams.
- if fixes the problem of the offensive capabilities of MMY. Mega mewtwo Y is extremely painful to switch into without something like solgaleo. Without this issue, MMY turns into a one time problem, as it can be revenge killed with priority afterwards (not to mention the fact that nova isn't boosted by psychic terrain is already a big deal).
 
You want to know how to fuck with Deo-A spam teams? Just remember the fuckers have base fucking 20 defense. A Special-oriented Pheromosa will guaranteed get the OTKO with Beat Up with a full team behind it provided the teammates have actual physical stats. Worried about Priority? QM/Dazzling will do just fine, or PsyTerrain if you want to keep it for other teammates as well when not dealing with Deo-A spam. You should probably run a Sash as well to fuck with the Suddenly, Scarf! Deo-As that they will inevitably have.

Of course, such a thing is making my Phero set suffer 4MSS because it wants all of Bug Buzz for STAB, Surf to fuck with Diancie, Beat Up specifically to counter Deo-A spam, Ice Beam to fuck with Triage MegaQuaza, and Moongeist Beam because people still use the cancer that is Sturdydinja. For now I'm taking the L on Ice Beam, but Species Clause when, because I should not need to gimp myself like this.
 
Just to provide an update, I can begin the suspect only after MnM's ends. Here are the details to that one. Also, I wanted to note that this suspect will likely have an easier curve for reqs; this is intentional for two reasons; first I believe the decision is going to be pretty straightforward. We will only have ban and do not ban for all CFZ moves. Personally, other than the "variable" CFZs (which are really just BP 1), I can't think of any objective reasons to keep any of the fixed-power CFZ moves if we are banning some of them. I felt that the only two viable options were a complete ban or a complete limitation on CFZ, and since we are not to have any kind of complex limiting, there's only one clear option. Furthermore, CFZ moves are an issue that affects the entire ladder, and I don't think that, to form an opinion on it, it makes a difference how much rank you have, as long as you have a good amount of experience in the tier. I hope to see a lot of people participate and voice their opinion.

Thanks and sorry for the delay.
 
The Immortal said:
Let's not limit them. They should be treated as any other moves. Would you limit Fire moves per team? Would you limit Physical moves per mon? No. As MAMP pointed out, we don't need a complex ban in this situation.

Either: ban specific Z-Moves, or prevent all Z-moves from being used directly (like Primals last gen).
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Or, you know, just abide by their original built-in restriction of one attack per game.

Yeah, it's not a complex ban seeing that every tier abides by this, it allows the flexibility people want, it limits the abuse that everyone complains about, and it removes all of the abusable and uncompetitive sets and loops that everyone detests. Honestly, why haven't we just done that in the first place?


Also, with much respect, this argument you gave is nonsense. No, they should not be treated like any other move. Your rhetorical fire move limit or physical move limit doesn't apply here because they don't threaten the stability of the metagame, allow unfair/uncompetitive strategies and sets, or give anything the ability to KO any Pokemon of your choice while applying a crazy effect at the same time. Unless in tandem with something like Contrary or No Guard (which are separate things in of themselves), no "standard" move in existence can achieve these all at the same time.

Z-Moves are an exception to standard moves. They're supposed to be overpowered by design and are supposed to be used only once. This is almost like Mega Evolution but on a higher scale. The difference here is that Mega Evolution gives a Pokemon a good stat, typing, and ability alteration that improves its performance while Z-Moves act as an instant nuke whenever you want. You can clearly see why one of these is more fair to have multiples of than the other!


The answer to this is simple: apply the same OR a similar restriction to Z-Moves that already exists in other legitimate metagames. You solve every complaint given, still allow the use of these moves, and limit their usage in a way that they cannot by spammed or abused. If complete freedom, complete inaccessibility, or a complex ban won't work, then maybe the problem is altering a mechanic that was already given to you!
 
NidoTheKing said:
Or, you know, just abide by their original built-in restriction of one attack per game.

Yeah, it's not a complex ban seeing that every tier abides by this, it allows the flexibility people want, it limits the abuse that everyone complains about, and it removes all of the abusable and uncompetitive sets and loops that everyone detests. Honestly, why haven't we just done that in the first place?


Also, with much respect, this argument you gave is nonsense. No, they should not be treated like any other move. Your rhetorical fire move limit or physical move limit doesn't apply here because they don't threaten the stability of the metagame, allow unfair/uncompetitive strategies and sets, or give anything the ability to KO any Pokemon of your choice while applying a crazy effect at the same time. Unless in tandem with something like Contrary or No Guard (which are separate things in of themselves), no "standard" move in existence can achieve these all at the same time.

Z-Moves are an exception to standard moves. They're supposed to be overpowered by design and are supposed to be used only once. This is almost like Mega Evolution but on a higher scale. The difference here is that Mega Evolution gives a Pokemon a good stat, typing, and ability alteration that improves its performance while Z-Moves act as an instant nuke whenever you want. You can clearly see why one of these is more fair to have multiples of than the other!


The answer to this is simple: apply the same OR a similar restriction to Z-Moves that already exists in other legitimate metagames. You solve every complaint given, still allow the use of these moves, and limit their usage in a way that they cannot by spammed or abused. If complete freedom, complete inaccessibility, or a complex ban won't work, then maybe the problem is altering a mechanic that was already given to you!
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It is a complex ban, though. We currently allow multiple megas per team, and that's the exact same limit. Besides, tiers don't ban multiple Z-Moves - you can carry as many crystals as you want - the game simply prevents you from using any crystals after the first, which it also does in BH.

Megas are as much or more of an improvement than Z-Moves, so that falls flat. Compare Z-Move Ray and MRay: It's pretty clear which is banned to AG and which is mediocre in Ubers.
BH hasn't altered game mechanics at all, either, simply bypassed illegalities, which is something entirely different. I'm not certain that The Immortal's solutions are the only ones/best ones (Although I'm a fan of #1), but this just seems very off base.
 
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Concering the CFZ move issues, i totally agree when some people say that is a no brain strategy. Basically each time you use a Z move you either OHKO or highly cripple something, which is definetely uncompetitive. I have experimented facing this and the only thing i could do is running max special defense Fur Coat Complete Zygarde to take at least one shot from any of them coming from unboosted threats and i'm not talking about Leppa Berry Sheaningans. Also each time it tanks one, it forces me to recovering just afterwards, make me waste my PP faster that i would like to. So yes it's completely no brain, highly uncompetitive and definetely breaks the meta. It needs to go or being restricted.

EDIT: Triage and Water Bubble are less broken, but as much dumb too.
 
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Quantum Tesseract said:
It is a complex ban, though. We currently allow multiple megas per team, and that's the exact same limit. Besides, tiers don't ban multiple Z-Moves - you can carry as many crystals as you want - the game simply prevents you from using any crystals after the first, which it also does in BH.

Megas are as much or more of an improvement than Z-Moves, so that falls flat. Compare Z-Move Ray and MRay: It's pretty clear which is banned to AG and which is mediocre in Ubers.
BH hasn't altered game mechanics at all, either, simply bypassed illegalities, which is something entirely different. I'm not certain that The Immortal's solutions are the only ones/best ones (Although I'm a fan of #1), but this just seems very off base.
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Okay I'll admit defeat when I see it. I mistook the mechanic and my arguments were frail.

But my argument still stands: why not just keep the limitation that the game already built in? Allowing every Z-Move possible will not work and entirely banning them removes some viable options. Compared to other options it's not a complex ban seeing that it's already a pre-programmed code, so that isn't an issue. I just don't see why there needs to be a blanket ban on Z-Moves, specific ones or not (which, if only specific ones, seems ironically more complex than the idea I'm proposing), when simply not changing the program given would be just as if not easier.

And I see the point The Immortal is making for outright forbidding the usage of Z-Moves without a crystal, but a lot of it still doesn't make much sense. Yes banning all of them would do as much good as reprogramming the code, but it's still banning options, viable or not, without outside justification. Instead of making something entirely unusable, why not just make them usable but for very specific Pokemon and sets so that it can be used as designed without overpowering almost everything else? And before you say that this is a complex ban, this is already in the game so there is no excuse for not implementing it.

Or, maybe I'm misreading everything and TI wants to do this exactly, in which case go for it!


My argument is simple: Keep the limitations of Z-Moves that the game already provides for Balanced Hackmons. It fixes every problem and still allows them to be used in a fairer way with no strings attached. Yeah it breaks the "no illegality" rule of BH, but things are still banned/limited in the tier despite the mindset and no other option seems any fairer than what I'm asking for.
 
That's not the in-game limitation, though.

CFZs are not Z-moves, they're normal moves that mirror the damage and effects of Z-moves. The only in-game limitation on normal moves is that you can only use 4 of them. The limit of one per battle is something that only applies to real Z-moves.

What you're suggesting is akin to making it so only one standalone Mega Pokémon can be used per team because you can only Mega Evolve once per battle. That's an arbitrary restriction because standalone Mega Tyranitar is not the same Pokémon as Tyranitar holding Tyranitarite. You can use 6 Choice Band Mega Tyranitar without recourse and limiting the rule set to only allowing one isn't recreating game logic, it's creating a new limitation that superficially resembles game logic.

Now, I'm not saying this is unreasonable: Mix and Mega has the arbitrary restriction of allowing 2 of each stone. But don't try to argue that a similar restrictions on CFZs wouldn't be just as arbitrary just because a related but inequivalent limitation exists in-game.
 
E4 Flint said:
Sorry for the delay guys, my internet is shot, and I've been steadily working on this on my phone for a few days.
CFZ Suspect Details:
Thanks and remember you can keep discussion going on this, or any other topic (including next suspect)
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No suspect of Comatose? IMO Comaphaze teams are worse for the meta right now than CFZ's are, given their limited counterplay and the fact that people are now using dark type phazers to prevent Prankster. It's, imo, very unhealthy, and is definately suspect worthy, possibly qb worthy. I'm too tired to go on at length about it rn, but I hope other people will chime in.

That being said, yay CFZ suspect!
 
The Ruins of Alpha CFZs were pretty much unanimously agreed to be the next suspect before Comaphaze even really reared its head. I suspect Water Bubble, Psychic Surge/Terrain, or something about Comaphaze will be next. However, I reserve the right to be wrong.

Personally, I see no issue with Comatose itself, just Comatose + Sleep Talk + high speed + phazing moves.
 
Rumors said:
The Ruins of Alpha CFZs were pretty much unanimously agreed to be the next suspect before Comaphaze even really reared its head. I suspect Water Bubble, Psychic Surge/Terrain, or something about Comaphaze will be next. However, I reserve the right to be wrong.

Personally, I see no issue with Comatose itself, just Comatose + Sleep Talk + high speed + phazing moves.
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I have no issue with CFZ's being suspected, I just hoped Comaphaze would be dealt with during the same suspect.

As to the second point, even if the issue is only when all those points are combined, if there's a problem, one of them has to be addressed. Banning high speed mons is obviously ridiculous, because aside from anything else then you just get new highest speed mons and the problem is still there. Phazing moves and Sleep Talk have notable niches in the metagame outside of Comaphaze, and in those roles aren't problematic at all. Comatose seems to me to be the odd one out, as you NEVER see it except when being used in conjunction with Sleep Talk to spam phazing (now that Sleep Talk no longer calls Z moves, which after this Z move suspect inevitably bans CFZs wouldn't be a problem anyway). While there are possible niches for Comatose, the solution that is by far the simplest and least harmful of other legitimate strategies, should it be determined that it's a problem that needs a solution, is to ban Comatose.

Psychic Surge (but not the move) and Water Bubble should probably also be suspected soon but I don't think they're nearly as blatantly, well, annoying to face for a prepared team as comaphaze is. I'd also personally like to see Psychic Surge without z moves as an option.
 
Suspecting multiple, unrelated things at once would be confusing. GKR last gen got a pass because they all three had basically the same problem: obscene offensive power for the generation combined with great bulk and typing. Well, less so Ray, but that's why it got to stay. The -ate suspect, both the past one and the one we'd likely would be having right now if S/M weren't released this year, were all addressing multiple flavors of the same thing. Meanwhile, CFZs, Water Bubble, Psychic Surge/Terrain, and Comatose all are very different, so you can't exactly test them together reliably. Ultimately though, that's just my opinion and Flint may have a different one entirely.

Also, for Comaphaze, I normally dislike complex bans, but this is one of the very few instances where I'd support one: Comatose + phazing + Sleep Talk or Sleep Talk + phaze. Or if complex bans were shot down again for that, I'd target just Sleep Talk. Comatose has lots of potential competitive merit, such as being absolutely great for a dedicated Cleric. Sleep Talk... not so much. Resttalk is a pretty bad strategy in BH since more reliably recovery moves are a dime a dozen and there's little other use for Sleep Talk besides extremely specific situations. As such, Sleep Talk would kill the unhealthiness with less impact on the rest of the meta as opposed to getting rid of Comatose.
 
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