BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[SuperSkylake]

In regards to Comatos, what exactly is it used for besides Coma-phase? Does it have any legit uses? If you want to be immune to status, go Poison Heal! It's better anyway. You get HP back, and you only need a toxic orb to activate it. If you're going to run Coma-Phase you need a half a team built around it at least to get up entry hazards, deny the opposing team entry hazards, etc. The only reason it works is because Comatos lets you sleep talk. Comatos doesn't really seem to do much else in the game. I just had a well built team of mine get swept by Comatos spam with only a layer of spikes, 1 layer of rock and sticky web, which really isn't that hard to set up. Basically it's a low risk, high reward strategy, and it forces you to pack a regenerator or a magic bouncer to stop it. That, in my opinion, is centralizing the meta around itself, even though regenerator and magic bounce are both really great abilities to have on any team, one has to devote an entire mon to checking coma-phase right now or they will definitely lose to it.
TLDR: Ban Comatos!

 

[motherlove]

If you're gonna argue that z moves aren't broken, pls stop assuming that they only exist on leppa harvest mons with 4 z moves.

Grossly oversimplifying issues isn't really what I would consider a solution either.

#qualityposting

 

[willdbeast]

I think something that compounds the issue with z-moves is the fact that they pierce protect etc which makes it much harder to take advantage of their 1 pp to waste them, since unless you are bulky anyway the z-move is still going to be taking 70% of your health a lot of the time through protect.
I think lum berry sets are mentioned more because it's these sets that you can't just make a double switch to waste it's one time use since making repeated predicts becomes much harder.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

In regards to Comatos, what exactly is it used for besides Coma-phase? Does it have any legit uses? If you want to be immune to status, go Poison Heal! It's better anyway. You get HP back, and you only need a toxic orb to activate it. If you're going to run Coma-Phase you need a half a team built around it at least to get up entry hazards, deny the opposing team entry hazards, etc. The only reason it works is because Comatos lets you sleep talk. Comatos doesn't really seem to do much else in the game. I just had a well built team of mine get swept by Comatos spam with only a layer of spikes, 1 layer of rock and sticky web, which really isn't that hard to set up. Basically it's a low risk, high reward strategy, and it forces you to pack a regenerator or a magic bouncer to stop it. That, in my opinion, is centralizing the meta around itself, even though regenerator and magic bounce are both really great abilities to have on any team, one has to devote an entire mon to checking coma-phase right now or they will definitely lose to it.
TLDR: Ban Comatos!

Comatose does have a use in that it's a better sleep spam answer; you can switch in without needing to activate your orb, aren't Koff weak, and can run heal bell to save your team without screwing yourself over, as well as being able to run an item (like, say, running leftovers to make up for the lacking recovery). Ordinarily, that wouldn't be useful enough to make it worth saving, but since Sleep Talk has no other use (except as prankster resttalk, which is pretty much the same idea as comatose, and an even worse sleepspam check that nobody uses) it would appear to have the least impact to ban.

Comatose is super balanced, just run a suction cups Pokémon.

 

[Uselesscrab]

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 244 HP / 172 SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 182-216 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Well, I don't think so.

It is true that I made too impulsive statements about the CFZ's, so I will try to come up & come back with the ways how they can be unbalanced. Thanks for the feedback BTW.

lol you just removed the Life Orb...

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 244 HP / 172 SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 237-281 (49.7 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Anyway some more things that I took issue with in your post:

3) TriageOk if you see Mega Ray sucks your ass with Oblivion Wing just get anyone with Psychic Terrain or Dazzling / QM. You can also have Unaware wall.

Your supposed Triage counters both lose to a Shell Smash / Oblivion Wing / Moongeist or Sunsteel / some other move like Sub, Spore, or Secret Sword set, which is not altogether uncommon. And I am also of the opinion that Psychic Surge serving as a check for Triage is the epitome of what we call "broken checking broken." In a metagame without anti-priority abilities, Triage would likely dominate. It's only the proliferation of Deo-A spam and Psychic Surge MMY, as well as the unpredictability of which sweepers might carry Dazzling, that keep it in check currently.

4) Simple Z-Geomancy Arceus

No Spectral Thief. Well, just use the Registeel I mentioned or take this crap and get out:

Im Still Gay (Gengar-Mega) (M) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Normalize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Leech Seed
- Entrainment
- Substitute

I was NEVER going to share this with anyone for the sake of my ladder, but being as kindhearted as I am, I did.
This thing is not only useful for Arceus I mentioned but also this thing scouts moves and abilities at the same time while smashing some opponents with Judgment. (also Imposter-proof)

How does this counter Arceus? It's not like they carry mono-Normal coverage, and I honestly can't think of a +4 coverage move that it would be able to survive. Not only that, many Arceus without Z-Geomancy and with QD or something run Judgment in the first place. You have to somehow predict them coming in and hope and pray that they are running this weird low-ladder set that you seem to think is such a problem.

5) Deo SpamYes I know this is pretty annoying as hell especially because most team carry one nuclear bomb called Innards Out Chansey.
There are lit 4 things needed to demolish this team (you do not need all of them, perhaps even just one):

1) A thing with Shell Smash and Icicle Spear
2) Stealth Rock
3) Scarfed Mon with U-turn
4) Pheromosa with Twineedle / Pin Missile
Deo Spam is a free Elo for me so yeah.

What Volt said about your supposed "solution" to CFZs is true here too. Do you not realize that the fact that you have to carry four different means of beating a single strategy, including otherwise obscure and unviable Pokemon like Twineedle Pheromosa, serves as further evidence of the brokenness of the strategy (which, in my mind, is largely due to CFZs)? By my count, you've spent a total of four moveslots, an item slot, and a team slot, just to deal with Deo spam.

***

Personally, I believe that Water Bubble is the single most broken thing currently usable besides CFZs and maybe Comaphazing. It basically necessitates running either an Assault Vest Regenerator resist or a Water Absorb Fairy-type (since other non-Fairy-type Desolate Land or Water Absorb users get Core Enforced), neither of which is a definite counter due to the possibility of Specs, Steam Eruption's burn chance, and other coverage moves besides the traditional Core Enforcer. (Secret Sword, for example, destroys heavily Special Defense-invested walls, most notably the trendy Mega Gyarados.) Even without me posting calcs, you should all be aware of the ability's immense power, especially on Primal Kyogre, but here it is versus the Pokemon traditionally held up as one of its best counters:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Gyarados-Mega: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I think burn damage can potentially turn this into a 2HKO, and what does Gyarados even do in return?

Or if you face a Shell Smash Mystic Water set and your opponent predicts the switch...

+2 252+ SpA Mystic Water Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Gyarados-Mega: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...you pretty much lose.

Even Water Absorb Mega Audino can potentially be 2HKO'd by a +2 Secret Sword or Earth Power from Primal Kyogre, depending on which defense it chooses to invest in.

These Pokemon are not really amazing outside of checking Water Bubble (for instance, Assault Vest Regenerator Giratina could potentially check Primal Kyogre, but is completely unable to check Primal Groudon, its typical role on BH teams), but their use is completely necessary, because look at what happens to some of our traditional specially defensive stalwarts against a Life Orb set:

252+ SpA Life Orb Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 237-281 (65.1 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-C: 330-390 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Overall, I feel that Water Bubble should be suspected as soon as possible after the CFZ test is over because of its ability to power through even defensive teams and the fact that it requires extremely niche counters. (And it's only occasionally even been explored on Greninja-Ash or Mega Gyarados!) It best fits this description of a broken ability:

The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

 

[Rumors]

I'll just have to say, everyone posting about "CFZs not being broken" keeps focusing too hard on 10,000 Genesis Pancakes and keep forgetting about Bullsh- of Alola and its ability to do 75% damage to every Pokemon in the tier except Sturdinja, regardless of stats, typing, items, or ability. Got a wall that checks something? Bullsh- of Alola says you better hard counter the rest of the set instead otherwise you lose anyway if you can't OHKO back before they move again. I should probably play around with that move when I go for reqs over the next few days...

 

[smic0921]

About Water Bubble:
My Gyarados often ends up knocking off Kyogre's Choice Scarf and U - turn after surviving another hit. Even if that Moby Dick runs power-up items like Life Orb or Choice Specs, that leaves Dick outsped by the most metagame, which means any offensive mon can revenge kill it.
Also, this doesn't even happen a lot because I lead with MMY with Scarf for 80% of the time with Psychic Surge, so I smack that whale with Psystrike:

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 364-429 (106.7 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (under the Psychic Terrain)
I know some psychotic players spam Water Spout with Greninja with Scarf, you can simply deal with -ate users. If Psychic Terrain is there:

* Water Absorb user that resists things like Earth Power or Moongeist Beam (most notable example is Water Absorb Zygarde)
* Desolate Land (Ho-oh works the best)

This does NOT mean that I disagree on Water Bubble is overpowered. There are many ways to stop Water Bubble users, but they have to be very niche, either by forfeiting one party slot for a wall that you do not wish to have or an ability which you can make generally better use than Water Absorb.

Thanks again for feedback and please READ my post before giving me criticisms.

 

[CallMeLefty]

I do appreciate your feedbacks but did you READ what I put in parenthesis or after the slash?
If you paid a Tiny tiny tiny attention to my sample team, you will notice it has NOT been designed solely in order to counter Deo spam.
I said pin missile Pheromosa works against Deo spam, and i said: (you do not need all of them, perhaps even just one).

About the RevenVest Kitten I mentioned:
Sorry for CAPs, but THE KITTEN IS NOT THERE TO TAKE 2 SUPER EFFECTIVE HITS FROM UNINVESTED MMY AT THE SAME TIME. IT IS SUPPOSED TO RESIST ONE MOVE THEN TAKE MOONGEIST BEAM AND SURVIVE IT.

And if you have noticed, in my sample team, Solgaleo is NOT EVEN THERE. I don't find it useful as Gyarados or Zygarde with Vest.

Also I know Simple Geomancy Arceus is very uncommon but I had around 20 people crying about that useless piece of junk in the chatroom so I felt necessity to mention about it. If your ladder is high enough to say they are running this weird low-ladder set that you seem to think is such a problem after seeing my 'low-ladder':View attachment 75890
then good for yah. I don't mean any offense, just saying no one in my ladder runs such set. Just wanted to answer questions from 20 of my friends in PS. :D



About Water Bubble:
My Gyarados often ends up knocking off Kyogre's Choice Scarf and U - turn after surviving another hit. Even if that Moby Dick runs power-up items like Life Orb or Choice Specs, that leaves Dick outsped by the most metagame, which means any offensive mon can revenge kill it.
Also, this doesn't even happen a lot because I lead with MMY with Scarf for 80% of the time with Psychic Surge, so I smack that whale with Psystrike:

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 364-429 (106.7 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (under the Psychic Terrain)
I know some psychotic players spam Water Spout with Greninja with Scarf, you can simply deal with -ate users. If Psychic Terrain is there:

* Water Absorb user that resists things like Earth Power or Moongeist Beam (most notable example is Water Absorb Zygarde)
* Desolate Land (Ho-oh works the best)

This does NOT mean that I disagree on Water Bubble is overpowered. There are many ways to stop Water Bubble users, but they have to be very niche, either by forfeiting one party slot for a wall that you do not wish to have or an ability which you can make generally better use than Water Absorb.

Thanks again for feedback and please READ my post before giving me criticisms.

All I need to read in your post is how you react to know you should calm down. The people you are talking to are respected players with experience in BH over two generations(i think) and official tour participation. The sets you are posting are not bad (although far from completely new) but you should't get mad for people not doing a text analysis on every word you say, especially when what they say is right.
When you say Solgaleo isnt 2HKOed, then are proved wrong once then twice after responding, it doesn't seem appropriate to ask for people to re-read your post only the second when realizing you're wrong.

Regarding the problematic and commonly ran simple arceus set you are talking about, it has a whopping 0.31% use in the actual high ladder (as shown by 1760 usage stats) which is lightyears away from being a threat to prepare for.


Anyway, something that has been traumatising me is deo-A teams + Innards out chansey, as it forces mad 50/50s. One of the best set I have been using against it is scarf beat is mega gengar, who deals with it extremely easily:

Gengar-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 SpA /252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Moongeist beam
- Switcheroo
- Beat up
- Sludge Wave / Ice beam / Volt Switch ...

It also makes for a nice lure for MMY, and Audino if you chose Sludge Wave. Modest is the nature I have been using, but timid is definitely an option with ice beam for scarf comatose mega ray. Fighting coverage is usable but I employed AV gyara as my counters.

In general, beat up is a really cool trick for scarfers that want to deal with Deo-A


Finally regarding mega-gyara:while AV definitely has a niche for offense that doesn't want to run water bubble check, I feel like people are forgetting how powerful megatar is, especially now that it can run a good sand stream set with shore up, dealing with shedinja and sashes (deo-A I'm looking at you).

 

[Lcass4919]

I do appreciate your feedbacks but did you READ what I put in parenthesis or after the slash?
If you paid a Tiny tiny tiny attention to my sample team, you will notice it has NOT been designed solely in order to counter Deo spam.
I said pin missile Pheromosa works against Deo spam, and i said: (you do not need all of them, perhaps even just one).

i get your points, and i do agree with uselesscrab not reading the parenthesis, but to be fair, any deoxys spam team could EASILY mitigate all these threats with a magic guard defogger, and phero/shell smasher fall into the same catigory of "running a otherwise outclassed ability/move to specifically counter a threat, and if worse comes to worse, they can just run like...scarf deoxys with psychic terrain to outsmart you. the fact that you have to teambuild specifically for deo spam is a real issue, and regardless on if it suits your playstyle or not, if people(high AND low ladder) are complaining about using these strategies this late in the metagame, then clearly theres a issue here.

About the RevenVest Kitten I mentioned:
Sorry for CAPs, but THE KITTEN IS NOT THERE TO TAKE 2 SUPER EFFECTIVE HITS FROM UNINVESTED MMY AT THE SAME TIME. IT IS SUPPOSED TO RESIST ONE MOVE THEN TAKE MOONGEIST BEAM AND SURVIVE IT.

And if you have noticed, in my sample team, Solgaleo is NOT EVEN THERE. I don't find it useful as Gyarados or Zygarde with Vest.

this would be a okay statement, but you specifically stated that "This little kitten is NEVER 2HKO'ed from any special moves from unboosted MMY." which, to be fair, they were only proving you wrong in that moongeist CAN 2hko, with just a life orb boost. regardless on how you use it, people want mons that can come in safely. solgaleo has to beware of life orb, thus isn't entirely safe. saying solgaleo can isn't true in their eyes, and were just showing you how that's potentially wrong.

Also I know Simple Geomancy Arceus is very uncommon but I had around 20 people crying about that useless piece of junk in the chatroom so I felt necessity to mention about it. If your ladder is high enough to say they are running this weird low-ladder set that you seem to think is such a problem after seeing my 'low-ladder':View attachment 75890
then good for yah. I don't mean any offense, just saying no one in my ladder runs such set. Just wanted to answer questions from 20 of my friends in PS. :D
the chat isn't full of top tier ladders. no offense to the community. but just because your in the OM room doesn't mean they have a perfect idea on the metagame. heck, i cant even tell you how many times a lot of us have to listen to "ban shedinja, ban chansey" in chat. its also possible for mid-high ladderers to fight low ladderers so showing us your rank doesn't really prove anything. if you want to give us something to take seriously, post replays of high ladder games, where arceus is a threat. do i think its not a threat? idk. ive never seen one. dont just "talk", show. if you get demolished by a high ladder arceus, show us. if you cant find any, then make one of your own.


About Water Bubble:
My Gyarados often ends up knocking off Kyogre's Choice Scarf and U - turn after surviving another hit. Even if that Moby Dick runs power-up items like Life Orb or Choice Specs, that leaves Dick outsped by the most metagame, which means any offensive mon can revenge kill it.
Also, this doesn't even happen a lot because I lead with MMY with Scarf for 80% of the time with Psychic Surge, so I smack that whale with Psystrike:

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 364-429 (106.7 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (under the Psychic Terrain)
I know some psychotic players spam Water Spout with Greninja with Scarf, you can simply deal with -ate users. If Psychic Terrain is there:

* Water Absorb user that resists things like Earth Power or Moongeist Beam (most notable example is Water Absorb Zygarde)
* Desolate Land (Ho-oh works the best)

This does NOT mean that I disagree on Water Bubble is overpowered. There are many ways to stop Water Bubble users, but they have to be very niche, either by forfeiting one party slot for a wall that you do not wish to have or an ability which you can make generally better use than Water Absorb.

yeah, there are surely a lot of ways to handle water bubble, its just the low risk-high reward thats the problem for me, kyogre is tanky enough to shrug off common hits, and its water moves can 2hko resists because of how stupidly powerful they are.

Thanks again for feedback and please READ my post before giving me criticisms.

im going to use super cool green text for a lot of my responses here, since im lazy. im a bit rusty in bh so take my words with a grain of salt.

 

[morogrim]

* Desolate Land (Ho-oh works the best)

Thankfully saw that before I started reading the post, stopped reading immediately. Big time saver.

On a more serious note, there are many new abilities/moves in gen7 that should be looked into (after the suspect test obviously) which imo are not too healthy for the meta. Atm the most reliable ways of climbing the ladder are either by abusing the broken abilities/moves (Deo-A spam and co.) or by just simply running stall which I personally dislike. This is kind of an "update" of a post I made earlier in gen7 (it's also pretty funny that my predictions mostly came true with the exception of Assist spam which died off after the bug with calling Zmoves was fixed).

1. Water Bubble:

After playing gen7 BH for a bit longer, I could safely say that I still stand by what I said at the beginning of gen7: If forcing every team to have some sort of Water immunity (Water Absorb, Desoland, etc) isn't centralizing, idk what is. This is especially true since nobody was using Water immunity before Water Bubble came out. Imo, this ability should be suspected right after CFZs.


2. Psychic Terrain (and QM/Dazzling) vs. Triage:

Once again, as I said way earlier in gen7, priority blocking abilities are the only things that are preventing things like Triage and -ates becoming centralizing. As somebody already mentioned, it's the case of an OP ability restricting another OP ability. Imo, if a suspect is to happen for these abilities (which I think should happen), Triage and -ate would have to be looked into as well.


3. Comatose:

If someone manages to get some hazards up and has a fast Comaphazer, you're in for a blast. There is some counterplay to this however (such as removing the hazards before the phazing mon comes in, running MBounce for Whirlwind, and/or running Ghost/Fairy types for Circle Throw/Dragon Tail) but I honestly think it's still pretty broken. This ability should also be on the list for future suspects, maybe even after #1, 2.


4. Innards Out:

It's basically a better version of Prankster Dbond. Less risk, and you could even run setup moves on the mon to prevent it from becoming any sort of fodder (such as Shell Smash Guzzlord with Power Trip). Using an Innards Out mon usually guarantees at least one KO, if not more. Definitely should be suspected.


5. Zygarde-c:

If the mere possibility of the existence of a mon in the opponent's team forces players to go out of their way to run Ice coverage on their wallbreakers and sweepers, I think it's safe to say that the mon is centralizing the meta. This being said, Pdon had a similar effect on Ubers in gen6 (and probably even in gen7 as well). I'm actually not quite sure what should be done about this mon, but maybe if I somehow become interested in BH again and play it a bit more I would have more to talk about regarding Zygarde.


6. Pdon and Pgre:

I'll keep this one short and sweet and go straight to my personal opinion on this one since quite frankly all of the debates regarding these mons have already happened last gen: ban them both.

 

[Electrolyte]

Your supposed Triage counters both lose to a Shell Smash / Oblivion Wing / Moongeist or Sunsteel / some other move like Sub, Spore, or Secret Sword set, which is not altogether uncommon. And I am also of the opinion that Psychic Surge serving as a check for Triage is the epitome of what we call "broken checking broken." In a metagame without anti-priority abilities, Triage would likely dominate. It's only the proliferation of Deo-A spam and Psychic Surge MMY, as well as the unpredictability of which sweepers might carry Dazzling, that keep it in check currently.

Uselesscrab pretty much nails it here with this description. smic0921 while your arguments seemed to be backed by a fair amount of logic, practical experience (the ladder does not count.) dictates otherwise. There are so many (overly)-powerful strategies in the metagame right now that every non-hyper offense team must dedicate an unbalanced amount of resources in order to survive reliably against everything. If Dazzling sweepers, Water Bubble, Psychic Surge, and CFZ abuse all require their own dedicated, unique checks and counters, there isn't much room for bulkier teams to be creative in their means of retaliation. That's why stall is basically nonexistent and powerful support Pokemon from last generation like PH Giratina and Prankster Registeel are nowhere to be seen in higher levels of play. It is much more fruitful in the current meta to buy into these offensive strategies and try to win through sheer force and luck, but that is exactly the opposite of what a desirable meta would look like, as careful planning in team composition and prediction-reliant game plans are no longer as necessary.


It is true that RegenVest is a viable way to try to halt sweepers, but the fact that most teams need to carry not even one but two speaks a lot to how uncomfortably fast-paced everything is now. Don't be fooled into thinking that they are a patch to everything, either; RegenVest mons are notoriously weak to Knock Off, can simply be worn down by tanks and sweepers with Recovery, and can often just be broken past with the right coverage or sweeper selections. AVest Gyarados in particular is fairly weak, is quite useless against hard hitters that don't require boosts, and has horrible type coverage against most of the tier's best physical setup sweepers (like Normal- and Dark-type Shell Smash). Solgaleo suffers from the same problems.


Given that the current state of the meta is a result of the overpowering presence of multiple different strategies, I think we need to clarify 1. what the ideal BH meta looks like to us, 2. what problematic strategies are preventing that ideal meta from happening, and 3. whether those strategies can be fixed by better / more experienced playing / teambuilding or if they need to be purged.


I think there also has to be closer inspection of the interaction between the two major strategies: offense and defense. Whether you think the community should take action to guarantee defensive play a relevant spot in the meta is up to you, but as it currently stands the meta is so wildly out of balance that it would be difficult for anyone to contest that changes need to be made.

If we look at how checks to setup have changed from the transition into Gen VII:
Checks that were LOST:
- Shedinja and Sturdy
- Unaware
- Priority revenge killing
- Priority revenge status
Checks that were GAINED:
+ Spectral Thief
+ Zygarde-C, Solgaleo, Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon
+ Innards Out
Checks that REMAIN:
> Imposter
> Prankster Destiny Bond and Haze
> Phazing
New THREATS:
~ Psychic Surge
~ Z-moves
~ Power Trip

We see that it is not overly difficult for setup sweepers to counter a large portion of these checks at once, and teams that run multiple setup sweepers (VERY common) can attack these checks from different angles and easily handle them all collectively; arguably there is no single Pokemon that can check half, or maybe not even a third of all common setup sweepers in the tier. For example, classic Power Trip Dark-types counter Imposter, beat Shedinja, Sturdy and Unaware, can simply just set up again against Prankster Haze, and can overpower Spectral Thief Pokemon and the new bulky tanks. Focus Sash Deo-A has an even easier time breaking through traditionally bulky walls, as can Contrary sweepers under Psychic Terrain. Again, often times the best checks to bulky setup sweepers are stronger, frailer countersweepers, which dont have to fear any other shenanigans. Unfortunately, again this is not what we want to see, as this makes the metagame extremely bland and boring.


At this point, CFZ moves seem to be an unobvious but definitely certain cause of the meta imbalance. I think Genesis Supernova in particular is way overpowered, as it definitely plays a foundational role in the success of Deoxys-A spam. It is incredibly powerful, very reliable, and even offers lasting benefits for its user and their teammates later on. It needs to go.


In the future, hopefully we will be able to continue to curve the overconcentrating power of one-click offense. Because it seems like there is overwhelming community opposition against CFZ moves, we probably do not need to discuss it much further. Next I am interested in reinstating some sort of Ability, Species, or Item clause as well, to hopefully curb the proliferation of repetitive, one-dimensional spamming teams like those that have currently been so uncomfortably popular.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

The above points are really good. I would like to clarify on them myself, though.

This new generation has indeed brought a huge offensive wave to Balanced Hackmons. Even the most basic of looks can tell someone that much. From Dazzling and Triage to Psychic Surge and the Crystal Free Z moves, there's a ton of new offensive toys. Time to go over them (again).

- Psychic Surge. This actually doesn't concern me too heavily, but is definitely the best of the surges by a landslide. Electric Terrain is the only one that even comes close. Boosting all Psychic moves and denying priority is extremely good. This thing is, those that utilize this tend to take advantage of both factors. So you know their primary attack is usually Psychic if they are setting up. And hey, what's this? Dark types are suddenly a heck of a lot better. The real problem is being strong enough to take the coverage they are packing. I'll touch on that particular point in a bit...

- Water Bubble: Broken.

...That's not enough? Okay. The ability allows Water Spout and Steam Eruption to just decimate at least 80% of walls, rendering them useless. This is without setup, by the way. While it has a counter in Water Absorb, running it on every team gets tiring. Banning this ability makes everything else much easier on defensive play. This is the real reason people are running two Regenvests if they are; to stop stuff like this. (I just lose to this if I can't priority the offender, by comparison. Not good.)

- CFZs: I've covered this in the suspect thread, but a quick synopsis: makes walls fall much easier, splashable on just about anything, can be abused with Harvest... though that last one is kind of a big "Kick Me" sign if you don't have Genesis Supernova up. Did I mention they're stupidly powerful?

- Triage: This is where things get interesting... It seems harmless at first glance, but experienced players know better after run-ins with Triage Rayquaza or Yveltal. Or Heracross. It's the second thing that crosses the mind of anyone trying to Extreme Speed a set-up sweeper, right after Dazzling/Queenly Majesty. And if you don't pack Dazzling, you're kind of lost in that battle...

...Unless you have Unaware. See, there's one thing that the above post forgot. Unaware didn't die.
Confused? Let me explain. While the advent of Sunsteel Strike and Moongiest Beam killed Shedinja spam dead, it hasn't done so to Unaware. In fact, it still remains as one of the best abilities. As you might recall, Unaware Dark types were particularly good last gen. ...They're even better now. They resist Moongiest, and a host of other moves. Mega Gyarados and Yveltal are two particularly good users of Unaware. Sunsteel Strike, on the other hand, hits only Fairy, Rock, and Ice super effectively. Fairy Unaware users are rare anyways, Rock only had Mega Tyranitar (RIP, you poor soul), and Ice... sucks. Though Steelworker Katarna kind of makes mincemeat of that point, that's a different issue entirely.

...And then you have Triage, where the users very rarely have one of these two moves. Translation: Unaware users can steal their boosts or just flat -out wall them.

Long story short: Triage is overcentralizing and broken, but not quite in the ways you would expect.

I might cover more later. That's all I have on my mind for now. Defense is better than you would think, but it does need some help.

 

[SuperSkylake]

[
Given that the current state of the meta is a result of the overpowering presence of multiple different strategies, I think we need to clarify 1. what the ideal BH meta looks like to us, 2. what problematic strategies are preventing that ideal meta from happening, and 3. whether those strategies can be fixed by better / more experienced playing / teambuilding or if they need to be purged.


I think there also has to be closer inspection of the interaction between the two major strategies: offense and defense. Whether you think the community should take action to guarantee defensive play a relevant spot in the meta is up to you, but as it currently stands the meta is so wildly out of balance that it would be difficult for anyone to contest that changes need to be made.

I think this is a really good place to start a meaningful discussion. People complain about various parts of th emeta being broken, but we have to remember that those elements don't just exist in a vacuum. I feel like the suspects thread is mostly a bunch of haphazard talk aobut specific threats that have to be looked into and instead we should be focusing on how we want a stable meta to look and then going from there. To me, a stable meta would allow for equal viability in playstyles, including stall, bulky offense and hyper offense. A well-built stall team should be able to counter, check or revenge kill major offensive threats in the meta, and still be able to strike back when the time is right. Bulky offense should be able to pressure opposing teams with a combination of fast attackers and sturdy walls. HO teams should be able to employ a variety of strategies to break through both offensiv walls and defensive pokemon, though ideally they should have to use different trategies to break offense as compared to those used to break defense.

2. What problematic strategies are we seeing these days?
Unfortunately most of these strategies seem to be highly in favor of HO right now. Water bubble, innards out, coma-phase, cfz's, Triage and QM/Psychic Surge are usually used in an offensive nature, usually by simply denying the opponent the ability to move before it's KOedd (Psychic surge, coma-phase, Triage) or forcing the opponent to sac something or make a 50-50 prediction (Innards out, CFZ's, Water Bubble to a lesser extent). Defensive teams get spectral thief, Triage recovery, Strength Sap, Stamina, Zygarde-C and a few other things, but really it just doesn't measure up because they can't counter the offensive power. Hyper offense simply strains a defensive teambuilder's resources so much that he can't hope to counter all of the newly released offensive abilities, while still taking into account old mainstays such as contrary, choice specs -ate boomburst or, even sometimes, bulky poison heal. Also it's really hard to decide what should be prioritized in regards to what to suspect next.

In regards to Greninja Ash and Water Bubble, it's arguably better than p-Ogre, because you can outspeed so much stuff with it. Kyogre's slow speed, even with a scarf, usually ends up sapping offensive momentum. And Choice Scarf usually runs Water Spout because it needs as much damage as it can get, and that can easily be taken advantage of. Even if it runs both WS and Steam Eruption, that leaves only two slots open for extra moves, and it's really easy to accumulate chip damage on p-ogre witH Volt Switch so it's just not as great to me. You don't have to worry as much about taking a hit with Greninja-Ash. If you put on a choice Scarf, you can OHKO non scarf MMY. And Greninja-ash acts as a really great offensive pivot with Volt Switch since it forces so many switches. Check out the OM Bazarre for my Greninja-ash spam team. It wins games. But that's mostly because of water bubble letting you mindlessly kill sturdy walls, which shows it's broken.

 

[Balanced Freakmons]

Hello guys, maybe some of you have already talked about this but i'm here to talk about one of the most broken thinks i've seen in BH: Comatose.
The issue is: If someone manages to mess your field with some hazards up like Stealth Rock, (Toxic) Spikes, etc...and has a fast Comatose pokémon like Deoxys-Speed, Deoxys-Attack, Pheromosa, MMY, or a scarf slower pokémon like Ray or Gengar, we are really in trouble. Any pokemon with a base Speed higher than 90 or 100 can run a Scarf-Comatose set. I've got many of well built teams swept away by a Comatose strategy with only a layer of Spikes or Stealth Rock.
The only ways to stop this is:
-having priority moves like Fake+Espeed, or Triage. But with the rise of abilities like Queenly Magesty/Dazzling, the use of those priority moves have slightly decreased, and some players don't find them as useful now as they were before, so many people stopped using that.
-Having a Magic Bounce Fairy (immune to Dragon tail) or Ghost (immune to Circle Throw) but facing a set of Sleep Talk/Whirlwind/Dragon Tail/Circle Throw you're always vulnerable to one of the moves. And although Magic Bounce is not a bad ability to have on a good team, it's not a mandatory ability to have, and a team that doesn't have it will have a bad time against Comatose.

The main issue is that Hazards+Comatose is a strategy that requires no skill at all, i mean...is just setting hazards and clicking on the same move thereforth leaving the opponent without response, watching his team getting destroyed without being able to do anything 90% of the times.

What i mean is that comatose doesn't bring anything competitive to the meta and can be quite annoying and extremely frustrating due to their extremely limited counterplay. I know that we can't suspect several things at once, but i think Comatose should have a Suspect Test after the CFZs.

 

[CallMeLefty]

Regarding the current metagame, I think we may be looking at a balanced BH meta though last-gen's eyes, where priority was rampant (and was considered as a bit broken in the end by many people including me). I don't think we can really know yet if the meta that many consider unbalanced is "broken checking broken" or just a big generationnal power creep due to many powerfull toys entering.

Obviously, there is some really broken shit like bubble, CFZ (only for the moment fortunately) and comatose, but the priority disruption play may just be a big playstyle change(which I'm not saying it is).
Still, saying that, for example, stall is dead is a bit permature as well. Extremely passive mons (Chansey...) haven't been seeing that much usage and thus testing. Innards out may be a great toy to just negate a threat, as a reliable D-Bond is something stall may love. Stall is always a thing that appears dead in early moments of any metagame then starts gaining viability.

In addition, regarding what may be needed to fix the metagame, the issue UselessCrabs has been describing with antipriority actually seems fixable by banning shell smash (as +1 sash things are way easier to handle than +2s, and power trip loses a ton of BP without Shell Smash). Once again, this isn't to say that banning Shell Smash is the way to go, but just that there as a few option to be considered and rushing into a suspect is a bad idea, although potentially necessary in the end*. Without massive setup, anti-priority sounds like imposter and previously shedinja, massively shaping the meta while being handlable and possibly bringing creativity (speed boost? scarf? alternate terrains?).



On the other hand, I don't really see any point in suspecting comatose. It is not something broken and OP, it is something uncompetitive. It, like moody, should in my opinion receive a quickban.

The main issue with the quickban seems to me that comatose may have some viability. My suggestion is to ban sleep talk, which has never had competitive viability. Just like gen6 assist, it creates incredibly polarizing matchup, as you have to use something like magic bounce Giratina+Audino to wall it. It admittedly is a viable core, but is still very restraining (and also invalidates pure offense).

An other virtue of this quickban would be that new players wouldn't get instantly disgusted by BH (I ragequitted AAA for a month after getting rekt by it). I am BEGGING everyone to not post a comatose team that people could use, because a low ladder with it is just kicking out all potential newcomers.




*dazzling and such may actually be the only things really worthy of a suspect where you could see on the ladder if the metagame improves or not when they are gone. Water bubbles, CFZ and comatose are, I believe, consensually considered as ban worthy and I would be surprised if the votes pro-ban got under 75% for any of these.

 

[smic0921]

Regarding the current metagame, I think we may be looking at a balanced BH meta though last-gen's eyes, where priority was rampant (and was considered as a bit broken in the end by many people including me). I don't think we can really know yet if the meta that many consider unbalanced is "broken checking broken" or just a big generationnal power creep due to many powerfull toys entering.

Obviously, there is some really broken shit like bubble, CFZ (only for the moment fortunately) and comatose, but the priority disruption play may just be a big playstyle change(which I'm not saying it is).
Still, saying that, for example, stall is dead is a bit permature as well. Extremely passive mons (Chansey...) haven't been seeing that much usage and thus testing. Innards out may be a great toy to just negate a threat, as a reliable D-Bond is something stall may love. Stall is always a thing that appears dead in early moments of any metagame then starts gaining viability.

In addition, regarding what may be needed to fix the metagame, the issue UselessCrabs has been describing with antipriority actually seems fixable by banning shell smash (as +1 sash things are way easier to handle than +2s, and power trip loses a ton of BP without Shell Smash). Once again, this isn't to say that banning Shell Smash is the way to go, but just that there as a few option to be considered and rushing into a suspect is a bad idea, although potentially necessary in the end*. Without massive setup, anti-priority sounds like imposter and previously shedinja, massively shaping the meta while being handlable and possibly bringing creativity (speed boost? scarf? alternate terrains?).



On the other hand, I don't really see any point in suspecting comatose. It is not something broken and OP, it is something uncompetitive. It, like moody, should in my opinion receive a quickban.

The main issue with the quickban seems to me that comatose may have some viability. My suggestion is to ban sleep talk, which has never had competitive viability. Just like gen6 assist, it creates incredibly polarizing matchup, as you have to use something like magic bounce Giratina+Audino to wall it. It admittedly is a viable core, but is still very restraining (and also invalidates pure offense).

An other virtue of this quickban would be that new players wouldn't get instantly disgusted by BH (I ragequitted AAA for a month after getting rekt by it). I am BEGGING everyone to not post a comatose team that people could use, because a low ladder with it is just kicking out all potential newcomers.




*dazzling and such may actually be the only things really worthy of a suspect where you could see on the ladder if the metagame improves or not when they are gone. Water bubbles, CFZ and comatose are, I believe, consensually considered as ban worthy and I would be surprised if the votes pro-ban got under 75% for any of these.

First of all, happy new year, and let me address my opinion of these, without any salt this time.

1) Water Bubble

I thought this was not broken due to the fact that it can be somewhat alleviated by running Water Absorb; however, the thing is, as many people have mentioned, most of the teams are currently forced to run a wall that resists Water type moves (which is still dented by Water Bubble) or Water Absorb.
Just like how Huge Power and Pure Power is broken as hell, Water Bubble is broken for same reason - doubling the damage while having no drawback is just something that destroys the equilibrium in the metagame.

The very first time I tried BH7, I thought two things were unbalanced and should be banned immediately: Extreme Evo Boost and Water Bubble.
I still remember the early game when I was confused about Primal Kyogre obliterating all of my team with Steam Eruption. And now Water Absorbers have huge trouble because of Core Enforcer, which is used to predict switch and make switch-in Water Absorber to be vulnerable to Steam Eruption or Water Spout.

In my personal opinion, the only viable way to stop Water Bubble user are these (probs not limited to):

* Water Absorb / Storm Drain / Dry Skin (??????????) - like previously mentioned
* Innards Out (something other than Chansey)
* Gimmicky set with Sash and Metal Burst
* Prankster D-Bond which is mostly a waste of a party slot

List of calculations that demonstrates the brokenness of Water Bubble:

* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 392-464 (111 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 338-402 (92.8 - 110.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 312-370 (88.8 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 324-384 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 422-500 (99.5 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 384-452 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 342-402 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Life Orb Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 432-510 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 338-402 (104.3 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 306-362 (100.6 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 330-390 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 268-316 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 536-632 (120.7 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Shuriken (15 BP) (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar-Mega: 264-320 (101.1 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 312-368 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

If you need more let me know.
I don't think this problem will be resolved until either of these happen:

I) Ban Water Bubble.
II) Ban Primals.

I doubt anyone will disagree with me after all those calculations of evidence.


2) Comatose
Well,
I understand this can be a cancer if your team is unprepared. I think packing Magic Bounce / Defogger & Spinner / -Ate users, which are all fairly common, can deal with this issue.

3) Dazzling / QM
Interesting.
Virtually unstoppable without Prankster D-Bond or Haze. But what would happen if Imposter copies your set and starts sweeping your own team? You set up only to wipe out your own team. Gotta make your team Imposter - Proof, people. I might think about this thing as well though.

 

[Rumors]

If we're going to talk about "ideal meta" situations, then the pipe dream meta for me would be one where all major playstyles, from Flint offense to Adrian stall and all shades in between, to be equally viable. Each playstyle has a wide variety of tools that are all viable but not overwhelming, each having a number of checks and counters and can be managed with good play without having to run dedicated checks on all teams, so that games are decided mostly in the battle rather than the team builder (though a badly built team should still lose frequently.) Of course, that is BH Utopia and wouldn't ever happen, even if I was able to ban and unban as and when I pleased. But it's definitely what aim for when I discuss things. ...although I keep some of my more crazy and radical ideas out of the suspect talks since they'd never fly, even if I taught them HM02 four times.

Maybe it's nostalgia talking, but I think pre-510 X/Y was the closest to my ideal I've seen. Hardly perfect, but stall and offense were both pretty good. Follow that by late Gen V BH, if you did something about Prankster Spore Copywind/tail. I think HO was the most fun back then since I really had to think about how I was going to OHKO everything rather than sweeping an enemy team in 6-10 turns.


Anyway, I personally think Water Bubble (a bit broken) and Comphaze via Sleep Talk (not so broken, but very unhealthy and anti-competitive) need looking at next. Triage is pretty much limited to Flying types, mainly Mega-Ray, and limited to Oblivion Wing (I guess you could Giga Drain Triage Mega-Sceptile but... eh), so it doesn't seem as high of a priority to me and needs looking to see which piece of that puzzle is the broken one. (I'm reluctant to blame Triage when nobody really complained about Gale Wings, but rather MRay itself last Gen.) Psychic Surge/Terrain really needs Genesis Supernova to go away to judge correctly, so that's also lower. Dazzling/QM I think are even less concern since they're limited to one Pokemon, who has to forego an offensive ability to make it work.

So... in short, Water Bubble or Comphaze via Sleep Talk next in my book.

 

[Funbot28]

I would like to give my own opinion on some of the current potential suspect discussion atm, due to the meta being in kind of an awkward state even if CFZs get banned (which they probably will be).

Ok so I will have to admit that Comaphazing is quite a huge nuisance to the metagame atm due to some teams actually preparing for Magic Bouncers such as Aegislash and Zygarde-C with respective coverage options and Ash-Greninja to block out Prankster Defog. I have even seen Eject Button Psychic Surge being used to even block priority as counterplay to the strat. However, I do still feel that you can play around ComaPhazing through careful predictions and smart counterplay, but the fact that it centralizes the metagame and skews matchup so much for its favor makes me believe it deserves to be banned/nerfed. If we were to do this, I would say that we should just ban Sleep Talk as others stated due to Comatose still having competitive use for setup sweepers that do not want to be statused. RestTalk is really an unviable strat in BH due to the fact that every mon has access to reliable recovery. Really feel a nerf needs to be put in place here.

Yeh Water Bubble is another pain that I also feel can get the boot right now. It basically requires the use of a Water immune mon on every balance and stall team due to even resists getting blown away by Water Spouts from Primal Kyogre and Ash-Greninja. Even though options exist such as Desolate Land / Storm Drain Primal Groudon and RegenVest Mega Gyarados can live a hit, I really do not feel its a healthy proponent to the meta since it requires the use of these specific sets. As stated by the policy for banning an ability:

An Ability should be considered for ban based on:

• 
  
  • "Splashable"ility:
    Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard
  • Extreme Augmentation:
    The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

Water Bubble really falls into these guidelines as it really can be slapped on any Water type really, turning theme into absolute powerhouses, regardless of which mon is really using it. This is why it should be banned / suspected a.s.a.p imo.

(beautiful writing)

and

I am honestly not sure if I would call these abilities broken quite yet. I mean I know it turns things such as Sash SS Deoxys-A into absolute powerhouses, but really we always have Imposter to handle these threats. I honestly quite like how it checks certain things that would otherwise wreck the meta such as -ates and Traige. I feel we should wait a tad bti longer and let the meta settle a bit more before passing judgement on these abilities due to their being both pros and cons. Psychic Surge tho can be looked into tho as it allows Psychic Types to become absolutely ridiculous due to the power boost and added that it also blocks priority which helps stuff like Deo-A. I agree with morogrim tho that if they get suspected, then Triage and -ate should also be looked into as well.

I am also quite conflicted on Innards Out as well rn. I a sense, its a great way to check sweepers and powerful mons like how Imposter does, but Innards Out goes even further then that as the sweeper really can not play around it like Imposter and with high HP users such as Blissey and Guzzlord, it always results in at least the KO/severe dent of one mon. I really do not like the way it kinda sucks out all the momentum for the opponent and really creates a bad environment just due to its sheer existence. I can see it being suspected as well tbh.

Yeh at the beginning I kinda welcomed the Primal back into the metagame, but now I am not quite sure. Its kinda hard to judge whether or not they are too much atm due to Water Bubble kinda controlling the presence of both mons rlly atm (Ogre has the abuser and Don as the counter.) But, if/when Water Bubble gets banned, I can definitely see these two being quite the problem as they once where with Don running the CB Tinted set that basically had no switchins and Ogre running the PH Quiver Dance set that got buffed this gen with Moongeist Beam. This is all speculation tho which is why I feel they should not be touched atm.

I have Zygarde-C on every single one of my BH teams atm besides the Deo spam and ComaPhaze teams. Its just that good tbh. The amount of defensive roles Zygarde-C has thanks to its phenomenal bulk and good defensive typing allows it to become a blanket check to so many things. I will admit, it is the main reason why so many mons run Ice coverage now just to have the chance to 2HKO or OHKO it which does bring up arguments of overcentralization. However, looking at the guidelines wee see that:

• 
  
  
  • Inherent/Natural Qualities:
    • A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.
    • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards
  • Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
    • Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive
    • It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more
  • Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:
    • One of (or both):
      • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon or
      • Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier
    • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other

If we look at this, yes Zygarde is probably above every other defensive pokemon atm with its stats and typing, but its really not too difficult to check really with that nasty x4 Ice Weakness (which thank god it has or else it would be really broken). And while yes a team might be better automatically with a Zygarde-C then without one, I feel it really balances out the metagame in a positive way sorta like Imposter Chansey, since it blanket checks so many things, but is still has counterplay to it. I really do not feel its broken in the slightest right now.

Funbot 28's Plan:

• Ban Water Bubble
• Ban Sleep Talk
• Wait on Prio blocking abilities (except maybe suspect Psychic Surge)
• Suspect Innards Out
• Wait on Primals after Water Bubble maybe gets banned
• Don't suspect Zygarde-C

My practical 1K post so time for some S/O!

Hide

Quantum Tesseract My main OM role model who plays a lot of different OMs like me and is quite good in all of them too ;)
wishes A lovely person to talk too and a really great STABmons battler :)
Eevee General best OM moderator to date and creator of the best metagame ever :) (we still have to fite btw)
Chloe. My auzzy gal who is the best AG battler imo (screw Thimo and Gunner tho) with that Ho-Oh fetish ;)
Fardin Best Stall teambuilder for liek every OM lol (except BH tho ;) and a great person to talk to
@Transcendant God Champion Great writer and nice guy to chat with, hope u come back soon mate
aki0s cool guy found on Discord and probs will collab with soon :0
Kris lol

are others but this post is long enough :P

 

[smic0921]

By the way, I just wanted to share this P-don set for 2 reasons:

1) I find this set VERY unpredictable yet useful for 70% of the time.
2) The d-bag called Fuck.Your.Luk and ShedMiddleFinga, who are apparently the same person, was copying this set. And he claimed that he made this set. After hearing that funny joke, I am here to prove that I came up with this:

I know this set does not work against Dazzling / Queenly Majesty / Psychic Terrain.
The whole purpose of this set is to check all Deoxys - S variants, which are mostly Mold Breakers, and Comaphaze team. Set Substitute to block Dragon Tail or Circle Throw or Taunt to block Whirlwind or the Sleep Talk itself.

I understand some Comaphaze team spams Sleep Talk in Psychic Terrain, but this can be mostly stopped by Prankster Sub.

Other than this, since P-don has very offensive presence in current metagame, you can easily set Sub while forcing switch.
Copycat is there for copying Thousand Arrows and land extra hit for KO.

You can replace Taunt for Spore to set sub more safely but being weaker check against Comaphaze team in exchange.
Use Garchomp - Mega for the same set when this Primal gets banned.

Try this, it is very useful especially as a lead.

 

[CallMeLefty]

By the way, I just wanted to share this P-don set for 2 reasons:

1) I find this set VERY unpredictable yet useful for 70% of the time.
2) The d-bag called Fuck.Your.Luk and ShedMiddleFinga, who are apparently the same person, was copying this set. And he claimed that he made this set. After hearing that funny joke, I am here to prove that I came up with this:

View attachment 75985

I know this set does not work against Dazzling / Queenly Majesty / Psychic Terrain.
The whole purpose of this set is to check all Deoxys - S variants, which are mostly Mold Breakers, and Comaphaze team. Set Substitute to block Dragon Tail or Circle Throw or Taunt to block Whirlwind or the Sleep Talk itself.

I understand some Comaphaze team spams Sleep Talk in Psychic Terrain, but this can be mostly stopped by Prankster Sub.

Other than this, since P-don has very offensive presence in current metagame, you can easily set Sub while forcing switch.
Copycat is there for copying Thousand Arrows and land extra hit for KO.

You can replace Taunt for Spore to set sub more safely but being weaker check against Comaphaze team in exchange.
Use Garchomp - Mega for the same set when this Primal gets banned.

Try this, it is very useful especially as a lead.

Hey, look, I invented a set too:

...
You are not proving you invented this set alone whatsoever. By looking so convinced you at best give a hint that you may have innovated along with ShedMiddleFinga, but it is likely both of you created a prankster Primal-Groudon (unless one of you already used it last gen...). Set invention isn't really something to be proud or jealous about, you just share them to help other people. Prankster copycat already was known about, so people could claim your concept.

Treating yet another well respected player of being bad/ worse definitely will not help you gain in reputation either.

 

[Lcass4919]

prank don has been a thing since 5th gen. and albeit its changed throughout the years, its still a similar construct. 5th gen had prank naturepower regular don, 6th gen had your set until Pdon was banned, and 7th gen nobody has used it probably due to the fear of the prank immunity.

 

[skies]

hi, i really do not play bh. i got to 2400+ super quickly and only lost a few matches. never played this gen, actually. used deo-a spam. didn't want to keep going. i felt bad having a vote since i have no real devotion to the metagame so i didn't want to get a vote since it influences a meta i don't know. please ban this that is completely unreal that someone who has zero knowledge of the metagame can easily attain reqs. @.@

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

My apologies for a (late?) response to this, but I don't have an option then and now I do so it has to come now.

I kinda compare CFZ moves more to megas or alternate forms than regular moves since their legal limitations are similar. My own personal vote would be for one per team as that is a closer match to their real mechanics with the Z crystal while still having an interesting interplay in the meta. It also is a closer to the idea of minimally removing the unhealthy aspect than an outright ban, which is pretty much the exact reason to have complex clauses. If that's not an option, I'm gonna backtrack and go for the options as all-or-nothing, since I don't want individual CFZ bans for multiple reasons.

Just to provide an update, I can begin the suspect only after MnM's ends. Here are the details to that one. Also, I wanted to note that this suspect will likely have an easier curve for reqs; this is intentional for two reasons; first I believe the decision is going to be pretty straightforward. We will only have ban and do not ban for all CFZ moves. Personally, other than the "variable" CFZs (which are really just BP 1), I can't think of any objective reasons to keep any of the fixed-power CFZ moves if we are banning some of them. I felt that the only two viable options were a complete ban or a complete limitation on CFZ, and since we are not to have any kind of complex limiting, there's only one clear option. Furthermore, CFZ moves are an issue that affects the entire ladder, and I don't think that, to form an opinion on it, it makes a difference how much rank you have, as long as you have a good amount of experience in the tier. I hope to see a lot of people participate and voice their opinion.

Thanks and sorry for the delay.

Why would we ever want to make it all or nothing? I get that it does make it more difficult to find the exact source of what is broken, but there's a world of difference between Genesis Supernova or Bullshit of Alola and Malicious Moonslaught or Pulverising Pancake. This seems to me like the GKR suspect of last gen, but with the options as "ban none" or "ban all" as the only options. The Z-moves are all really different--while they do all "hit hard," so do Regigigas, MRay, and Peimal Groudon. I feel like it's rather unnecessary to make it an all or nothing thing. At the very least, would it be possible to put in a few of them as a later retest?

 

[Rumors]

Why would we ever want to make it all or nothing? I get that it does make it more difficult to find the exact source of what is broken, but there's a world of difference between Genesis Supernova or Bullshit of Alola and Malicious Moonslaught or Pulverising Pancake. This seems to me like the GKR suspect of last gen, but with the options as "ban none" or "ban all" as the only options. The Z-moves are all really different--while they do all "hit hard," so do Regigigas, MRay, and Peimal Groudon. I feel like it's rather unnecessary to make it an all or nothing thing. At the very least, would it be possible to put in a few of them as a later retest?

It's because of this.

Let's not limit them. They should be treated as any other moves. Would you limit Fire moves per team? Would you limit Physical moves per mon? No. As MAMP pointed out, we don't need a complex ban in this situation.

Either: ban specific Z-Moves, or prevent all Z-moves from being used directly (like Primals last gen).

And because trying to sift through and figure out which is less broken would be quite a bit of a chore. Not that it matters much anyway since I can still net OHKOs on walls with Oceanic Opera and junk. All of the usable CFZs are bullcrap, IMO. Some are just a little less bullcrap.


Also, sorry TI if quoting you for this reply notified you!

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

It's because of this.



And because trying to sift through and figure out which is less broken would be quite a bit of a chore. Not that it matters much anyway since I can still net OHKOs on walls with Oceanic Opera and junk. All of the usable CFZs are bullcrap, IMO. Some are just a little less bullcrap.


Also, sorry TI if quoting you for this reply notified you!

Pardon if I'm missing something, but how does TI's post negate this? He specifically laid out banning some Z-Moves as an option.

Looking at the signature Z-Moves that I feel aren't broken:
Oceanettic Opporetta. Water isn't a super amazing type, and it doesn't really let anything bypass answers since it hits nothing viable SE (except Primal Groudon but desoland is a legit option without it and surf would OHKO otherwise too). For reference:
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Oceanic Operetta vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 203-239 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While it seems more promising on KYogre, it doesn't even really let it bypass Chansey, much less specially defensive water resists like Giratina: 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Oceanic Operetta vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 343-405 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, after which even water spout has only a chance to finish it off.

Pulverising Pancake is bad on everything bar Gigas, Mewtwo, and Deoxys and on it it still doesn't let Gigas or MMX beat Zyggy, Aegislash, or Giratina--it'll be the coverage that helps Regigigas the most.

Sinister Arrow Raid/SSSSS are once more Deoxys-A and Regigigas. I'll get too the former, and the latter? Is more walkable then Last gen PDon, much less the current gen version. 252+ Atk Regigigas Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 174-206 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- 55.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery.

As for deoxys-a, I'm firmly of the opinion that dazzling and psyterrain make it the problem, not z-moves. Look at replays with deo-a spam being successful--90% of the time, it's the other sets that do the damage, like the shell Smash or the psyterrain.