So uh more discussion about set up in bh right?
hmm where to start... When people talk about set up in bh, chances are theyre talking about sets using shell smash. It's the most common and outside of the one notable set (Triage Ray), the most outright threatening. Doubtful anyone would argue with me on this but my reasoning in short is that it doubles three stats at once.
Now, shell smash sets can come in many forms, as evidenced by multiple posts on the main bh thread. The moves and abilities can vary, something as simple as dazzle smash mmx to slightly less simple smash mguard diancie or galvanize zekrom. Shell smash, and set-up in general, has been a topic of discussion throughout the entire generation. It comes in and out of focus as more pressing issues are discussed. One of the big reasons no action is taken besides that though, is the argument as to what to do is not one that has been resolved. You could say that this is due to the communities inability to come to a consensus on this, but I would disagree. A significant portion has already decided what course of action should be and what they want, but a few outliers fuel the argument.
There are three things that are discussed when it comes to smash:
Shell smash - As stated above, doubles both offenses and speed. Mons using this don't have much issue running mixed sets, making them even more threatening. Has weakness of lowering defenses, making it vulnerable to priority. Buuutt...
Dazzling/Queenly Majesty - Completely blocks priority, taking away one of shell smashes weaknesses. Makes smash sets very difficult to revenge kill. Has weakness of not providing much power on its own, meaning you cant beat set up checks any better.
Moldy moves - Sunsteel, Moongeist, and Photon. Decently strong moves that bypass the many would be checks such as unaware and shed.
Now, the arguments usually are the same; without anti-priority -ate and prankster topsy become more viable as counterplay to smash, and without moldy moves unaware and shed become more viable as checks to smash. Neither of the previous statements are wrong by any means.
They are, however, flawed reasoning for why either of those things should go.
Take the time to actually read these, and you'll quickly understand why.
Splashability: Can be slapped onto nearly any mon regardless of role or moveset: Not at all. Dazzling on pokemon without shell smash is not nearly as threatening. Moves such as Tail Glow and Shift Gear don't boost stats the same way, and while still potentially fearsome, are not made much more so due to dazzling. The fact that mons using them are not easily revenge killed by priority to begin with (compared to how they would be with smash) lowers the significance of the ability. Dazzling on pokemon without set up is nigh useless. Any ability that actually gives power would be preferable.
Extreme Augmentation: As stated above about no-set up Dazzling, it gives no actual power on its own. The moves I run (shell smash, stabs, coverage) are what give the set power.
I don't feel Dazzling is the problem.
No Counters, or unreasonably niche or unusable ones: Nope. Sunsteel, Moongeist, and Photon by themselves do not fit this. Resists to steel are plentiful in the meta, Moongeist checks are also not very hard to find, considering it has an immunity and is only a 100 bp move by itself. The only time its ability to bypass abilities matters when it comes to its ability to hit things is against sturdy shedinja. Photon is a mix of both the moves weaknesses.
I disagree here. That’s like saying Chatter was blocked by Soundproof, the same way Moongeist is blocked by Normal-types- I see your point, but that alone isn’t enough.
Also, what about Steelworker Sunsteel Strike Choice Band sets? Not only does it bypass Sturdy, it also bypasses Fur Coat, doesn’t require Shell Smash, and nothing is immune to it based on typing, and obviously not by ability, as Sturdy Shedinja would normally wall a single move otherwise.
The fact that a move can become nearly as strong as -ate Boomburst, is often used by Steel types that have secondary coverage such as Kartana (Power Whip) which can handle would-be checks such as Slowbro-Mega, and can 1-2HKO most of the metagame:
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 328-387 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 390-462 (98.9 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Means that Shell Smash can be handled on the Special side by at least Assault Vest, and immunities, but to say there are plenty of Steel checks, especially with the vast array of coverage moves like V-Create which is nearly as powerful as a Z-move, without an item alleviates that answer of “resistances means it isn’t overpowered”. Send in a Slowbro-Mega on a predicted Sunsteel Strike and get 1HKOed by Power Whip, send in a Prankster Registeel on a predicted Belly Drum or Shell Smash to Haze the boosts away, and get KOed by V-Create, send in a Fur Coat wall and get bypassed thanks to Sunsteel Strike’s effect. This is BH, not OU, you can add nearly any move to ensure you have coverage. I think you are focusing on Moldy Moves as the coverage move without STAB, and that they alone cannot make something hard to switch into, but what if they are the main STAB move and the other coverage moves make Sunsteel Strike easier to exploit? Maybe you could argue for Photon and Moongeist because of an immunity, and bc it lacks an equivalent of Steelworker (since the Psychic Surge ban), but with high Attack, Steelworker and Choice Band. Shell Smash isn’t needed for Sunsteel Strike to feel OP, so you cannot blame set up moves for the power of the attack itself.
Further, what about CB MMX Adaptability Photon Geyser? it also bypasses Fur Coat, and it’s not just Shedinja, if anything that set is what made even Sableye-Mega have use. That is definitely a niche check/counter, and it’s main purpose in the metagame period. So that point you made about not creating niche counters omits Sabeleye-Mega.
Also, to a lesser degree, we can say that Aegislash with Flash Fire was niches to check/counter MMX as well. It just seems to fit the “needs specific niche checks to be handled” argument.
The same can be said about Muk-Alolan as a wall for Photon Geyser MMY, as Muk-Alolan literally has little real niche beyond a MMY check, and MMY Imposterproof - Photon Geyser, and Moongeist Beam obligated an obscure check for no other reason but their raw power and effect.
I even thought of Meloetta as Check for that same reason, simply bc MMY was so powerful, and it could wield either Moldy move, and a check has to be ready for not one but both, and that’s why some Normal-types like Arceus could struggle with Photon Geyser when their Unaware and typing was only designed to stop Moongeist Beam’s effect.
Also, Hustle could also be used on MMX to bypass its regular checks:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 375-442 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And most Dark types like Gyarados-Mega fear Close Combat, so really unless you have Sableye-Mega, or Aegislash, it’s easy to see how OP these moves are without any set up.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 481-567 (105.4 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So it’s not just about “100 Base power”, it’s about all of the power with STAB, item, and ability, and since this is a Choice Set, no Shell Smash or other set up to blame for the raw power of the move.
Removes emphasis on skill, planning, and or preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player:
Must I really explain how this one is not true? These moves have no elements similar to chatter, our one example of this rule, that eliminates a need for skill (no insane secondary effect that inflicts a status) or planning (you can't just continuously click any of these moves for free).
Agreed.
Now, I think it's clear to see that neither moldy moves nor Dazzling/Queenly Majesty fit any of the guidelines laid out. But what about Smash? Multiple posts in the main bh thread have showed that almost anything can run shell smash set up and have a substantial threat level. Yes it has a perfectly viable check in prankster, but what is stopping the opponent from running more than one? It's impossible to cover every possible shell smash user. Rayquaza, kyub, and gengar all have the potential to smash one of if not both the most common prankster mons in the meta. Prankster mons tend to work, but there are mons that they would want to haze on that could potentially break them, leaving you vulnerable to more smash. And nothing stops them from just using more smash. The constant is smash, so we take down the constant, the source. NOT the mere tools used. And that's not even getting into belly drum and how unburden without it is only slightly more useful than no smash dazzling.
I don’t think most anything can run Smash. Oftentimes weaker frail glass cannons like Gengar have to weigh the Scales, as most Entrainment Gengar-Megas run Quiver Dance to better handle opposing Priority hits especially from Triage Rayquaza (SpD boosts).
Running Smash is often for Dazzling users for that reason, (blocking Priority), and many people don’t run Smash without Dazzling especially if they cannot also run Focus Sash or White Herb on the same set (such as Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega).
Smash is definitely easier to use than Belly Drum for obvious reasons, but the more frequently the other ability often associated with Smash besides the much rarer Unburden sets, are Simple Shell Smash sets, such as Tyranitar-Mega, justified by virtue of STAB Power Trip.
For example, I see more Shift Gear Groudon and Kyurem-B bc they are not Mixed Sweepers, and in the case of Groudon — so it can trap Imposter with Anchor Shot and set up.
Shell Smash can be great, but I know it’s not as commonly used as the primary set up move for primarily physical attackers. It is more common on Mixed and Special Attackers.
Please for the love of anything you hold dear, stop suggesting dumb things to be banned just so that you can hold on to your precious move or mon which is so obviously the problem. Yes, they are guidelines, yes, they have could have exceptions, but these are just absurd. It's like if we had banned spooky judgment instead of protean; It doesn't solve anything and the thing in question (smash/protean) is still good without it (it being moldy moves).
I don’t think I said we should ban something just for my own set, etc. I actually mentioned in my last post that I didn’t know and asked about prior Gen 6 discussions which
Rumors addressed to a tee.
So you must be addressing something or someone else...?
If anything the reasons people mentioned Belly Drum are good are because they work with Sunsteel Strike and Unburden bc the Triage and Dazzling sets are not preferred. Therefore, they are not viewed as overpowered bc they are handled by Unaware, Shedinja, etc. bc they have weaker attacks in order to use priority over raw power.
Overall, both sets can even be blocked by Dazzling for the most part, and are handled by Imposter except in cases of Z-move as an emergency button.
So I was concerned about the combination of Unburden+Sunsteel only bc those were the only sets that were deemed standard sets, and thus examples to be used in the arguments for or against Belly Drum in the first place... I didn’t limit the discussion to my sets, i encompassed all sets.