Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans

[TheCommadore]

personal stuff first;
I did not use Protean because i think its not overpowered, however i agree its a solid ability.
I decided to gather some stats, atleast for myself.
I checked replays to note teams of those who gained requirements.
Yes both ladders felt different but nobody really explained or even talked about it.

So what differences did you see?
I was a bit surprised that the suspect tread conversation died all of a sudden.

Personally I noticed that the tier was much more diverse in attackers. I found out that one of my teams was weak to Moldy Hoopa, something that I saw once in a blue moon before the suspect test. Heck I even saw a Palkia on a serious team. Nobody ever bothered trying to make Palkia work when you could use Protean M2Y more easily and with better effect.

Overall I find the no-Protean tier more enjoyable as diversity keeps the tier interesting. I want to play a complex and ever-changing tier that has many viable pokemon, not rock-paper-scissors with pretty sprites.

 

[AWailOfATail]

I'm not really going to use a quantitative approach, but I do feel and see that the no Protean ladder is freer. Sets that I haven't seen or even considered in quite some time are relevant again!
With Protean, my entire teambuilding process was "Ok don't get 2HKO'd." Most other offensive threats were shut down by Protean, so there was no reason to run them; therefore, I had no reason to wall them (excluding -ate, of course).
However, I now have freedom to run more and more threats instead of having to run things that avoid the 2HKO from a Protean MMX V-Create, as an example. The Phase 2 ladder removed my need to rely on these pure walls and instead gave me opportunity to change from defensive stall to pressurized stall.
There weren't many possibilities to deal with Protean. Even for the pro-Protean speakers (lol pro and con), it's extremely hard to deny that there are a small amount of walls for them AND their movesets make them more unpredictable to wall. In no way am I saying they were unbearable, but they were definitely limiting.
However, now PH Ogre returns. I'd tried out Ogre before the suspect was announced and it failed miserably, pretty much due only to Protean. On the Phase 2 ladder, though, it was pretty much the only offensive presence I had and carried me to reqs. It was (and is) one of the sets that have been kind of forgotten about due to the sheer power of other offensive threats. With these other threats gone, however, the combination of less competition and less need for defensive play opens the door for not only PH Ogre <3 but also a myriad of other, lesser-seen Pokemon.

Tl;dr:

Overall I find the no-Protean tier more enjoyable as diversity keeps the tier interesting. I want to play a complex and ever-changing tier that has many viable pokemon, not rock-paper-scissors with pretty sprites.

 

[Super Blooper]

I had the opposite experience, sadly. In the non protean ladder I found an increased abundance of stall and bulky teams that made me end up reverting to things I already knew worked and could beat the oversaturation rather than branching out for new things. In a similar sense, I found my teambuilding becoming imposterproof everything(obv), make sure I can beat ate, then make sure I can wallbreak the various gira/audino/regi/fur chans/etc teams that was the majority of my reqs battles. I encountered few new offensive revelations, though perhaps some of them may have simply died to ate/ttar or something else, I seem to recall a number of mega latis dieing uselessly and that seems to be a breakout mon lately. Overall I was extremely disappointed, because I was expecting to feel freer and have a more open metagame without protean, but instead I found a bunch of walls and the wish that protean was back so I didn't have to focus so much on killing all of them.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

So what differences did you see?
I was a bit surprised that the suspect tread conversation died all of a sudden.

Personally I noticed that the tier was much more diverse in attackers. I found out that one of my teams was weak to Moldy Hoopa, something that I saw once in a blue moon before the suspect test. Heck I even saw a Palkia on a serious team. Nobody ever bothered trying to make Palkia work when you could use Protean M2Y more easily and with better effect.

Overall I find the no-Protean tier more enjoyable as diversity keeps the tier interesting. I want to play a complex and ever-changing tier that has many viable pokemon, not rock-paper-scissors with pretty sprites.

The reason it died is that we were all talking in circles, with no one convincing anyone else.

It's anecdotal at best, and possibly not representative due to who I fight (ladder+people like KS&HL, no middle ground), but in my experience there is actually less teambuilding freedom. Like, now that protean is gone you don't have a clue what you are up against; on you have to run an entire team around checking every possible foe rather than actually going for a win, while in challenges essentially nothing has changed.

I'm not really going to use a quantitative approach, but I do feel and see that the no Protean ladder is freer. Sets that I haven't seen or even considered in quite some time are relevant again!
With Protean, my entire teambuilding process was "Ok don't get 2HKO'd." Most other offensive threats were shut down by Protean, so there was no reason to run them; therefore, I had no reason to wall them (excluding -ate, of course).
However, I now have freedom to run more and more threats instead of having to run things that avoid the 2HKO from a Protean MMX V-Create, as an example. The Phase 2 ladder removed my need to rely on these pure walls and instead gave me opportunity to change from defensive stall to pressurized stall.
There weren't many possibilities to deal with Protean. Even for the pro-Protean speakers (lol pro and con), it's extremely hard to deny that there are a small amount of walls for them AND their movesets make them more unpredictable to wall. In no way am I saying they were unbearable, but they were definitely limiting.
However, now PH Ogre returns. I'd tried out Ogre before the suspect was announced and it failed miserably, pretty much due only to Protean. On the Phase 2 ladder, though, it was pretty much the only offensive presence I had and carried me to reqs. It was (and is) one of the sets that have been kind of forgotten about due to the sheer power of other offensive threats. With these other threats gone, however, the combination of less competition and less need for defensive play opens the door for not only PH Ogre <3 but also a myriad of other, lesser-seen Pokemon.

Tl;dr:

To me, this is the exact opposite of what you want. I mean, yes you don't want overcentralization, but the metagame being centralized is a good thing. You can't prepare for every potential threat in BH with any team on any archetype, os some measure of limitations on what is run is needed in order to build an effective game. On the current ladder, instead of "Build so that the odds are about even (having protean and breaking walls/offense vs walling/checking protean), have the match come down to skill in battle and whomever was more creative with their sets," it's instead "Put a bunch of bandaids on while trying to make a successful team, lose if they brought any of the hundreds of sets you can't beat". I'm not saying it's unplayable (I'm currently 34-3), but its just not as fun.
Basically, it's what Super Blooper said:

Overall I was extremely disappointed, because I was expecting to feel freer and have a more open metagame without protean, but instead I found a bunch of walls and the wish that protean was back so I didn't have to focus so much on killing all of them.

 

[Lcass4919]

I had the opposite experience, sadly. In the non protean ladder I found an increased abundance of stall and bulky teams that made me end up reverting to things I already knew worked and could beat the oversaturation rather than branching out for new things. In a similar sense, I found my teambuilding becoming imposterproof everything(obv), make sure I can beat ate, then make sure I can wallbreak the various gira/audino/regi/fur chans/etc teams that was the majority of my reqs battles. I encountered few new offensive revelations, though perhaps some of them may have simply died to ate/ttar or something else, I seem to recall a number of mega latis dieing uselessly and that seems to be a breakout mon lately. Overall I was extremely disappointed, because I was expecting to feel freer and have a more open metagame without protean, but instead I found a bunch of walls and the wish that protean was back so I didn't have to focus so much on killing all of them.

honestly, in my experience ive had a much easier time teambuilding, i can now run stuff otherwise outclassed by protean being just outright better (tinted specs mewtwo for example beats 99% of walls, and its as simple as slapping a specially invested imposter, or coil protean mm2x, which walls HEAVILY struggle to manage) we just have to innovate new stuff, as the old stuff will no longer work. and i feel like removing a "every type gets a 190 attack" ability has really helped the meta tone down. of course ate is a centralizing force now, but theres a reason its second on the list to be suspect tested, ate is a centralizing force, and keeping protean in doesn't change that.. lets not forget, protean was suspected BECAUSE it was so versatile as what it was able to KO. and saying you want it back because you want the mindless power back is counter-productive on whats best for the tier.

and do people seriously NEED protean to play decent? ive rarely used protean and i easily manage to get to top 15 without it... if i can get to top 15 without relying on a mindless "pick your kill switches" protean, i think you all can too. if walls infest the tier...create wallbreakers. seriously...they are a lot easier then you would think to create.

if anything, this suspect test just shown me that pix and aeri-ates should've left first. but it doesn't change that protean is a mindless killswitch that improved the tier by its removal in the slightest in my eyes.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

So since the ladder is wrapped up, I'd like to post my final thoughts. My experience with the non-Protean ladder was positive in terms of balancing. The tier felt much more balanced without protean. I know that is subjective but without Protean it felt more fun to play BH. Less subjectively, i felt as if i didn't have to run my teams with Fur Coat Chansey to beat MMy constantly. It was also better that i didn't have to stack multiple counters to one Pokemon. With more teambuilding slots open its easier to prepare for the rest of the metagame.

I had the opposite experience, sadly. In the non protean ladder I found an increased abundance of stall and bulky teams that made me end up reverting to things I already knew worked and could beat the oversaturation rather than branching out for new things. In a similar sense, I found my teambuilding becoming imposterproof everything(obv), make sure I can beat ate, then make sure I can wallbreak the various gira/audino/regi/fur chans/etc teams that was the majority of my reqs battles. I encountered few new offensive revelations, though perhaps some of them may have simply died to ate/ttar or something else, I seem to recall a number of mega latis dieing uselessly and that seems to be a breakout mon lately. Overall I was extremely disappointed, because I was expecting to feel freer and have a more open metagame without protean, but instead I found a bunch of walls and the wish that protean was back so I didn't have to focus so much on killing all of them.

This just sounds whiny to me. It sounds to me like you don't like stall and you want Protean so you can easily beat walls without putting too much effort into teambuilding or playing. Thats no where near a legitimate reason to not ban Protean.

I haven't addressed most of Quantum Tesseract's recent posts but here my retorts to some of the points he made i have issue with:

Palkia and other weather mons require a ton of team support to pull off effectively and are way more reliant on the power of their moves and items than Protean is. Palkia needs Specs+Water Spout+ Rain to wallbreak. If Palkia takes damage, it's damage output is lowered and it cannot wallbreak as effectively. If has to be choice locked, and it needs to set its own Rain or some other mon to do set the rain for it. If it sets its own rain its vulnerable to anything fast because of its mediocre speed tier. Protean might not be as powerful but it doesn't have any of these issues and doesn't require nearly as much team support. Its not just that Protean is a good wallbreaking ability, its that its also incredibly difficult if not impossible to revenge kill or check with offensive pokemon.

The meta being more wide open definitely isn't a bad thing. There is enough centralization from Chansey to keep the meta managable. Yes it being more wide open makes it a bit harder to prepare for everything but thats what blanket check bulky pivots are for. Give the meta more time, everything is always a bit different after a ban and its harder to figure out what you need to beat. After enough testing you'll find the answer.

 

[CallMeLefty]

Complaining about "having a hard time teambuilding" is to me simply still being in the previous mindset. Being able to switch into anything is the property of stall, and stall is still possible to build. Balance, in any normal meta, cannot switchin into all threat. it is not a proof of bad teambuilding: it is simply an indication that you may have to play your balance more offensively in certain matchup, making predictions, and not simply doing those 100+ turns games of balance vs balance.
You cannot complain about horizontal pressure on teambuilding (too much threats) when theres's 33 threats you meet more than once in 20 games, while there's more than 50 in most official tier, and 67 in UU.

However, I do agree that letting offense shine would require banning -aters, but one campaign at a time.

 

[Super Blooper]

This just sounds whiny to me. It sounds to me like you don't like stall and you want Protean so you can easily beat walls without putting too much effort into teambuilding or playing. Thats no where near a legitimate reason to not ban Protean.

I've felt the same about most of your points so I suppose I can't complain :P

I suppose my point, however, is that I can fill one spot with protean and it leaves me with plenty of spots for other fun stuff I want to run. Protean covered ates pretty well too. When you take away protean, there are far less free spots for random cool ideas because you need mons who can actually kill the giant walls/ates. As far as that being bad, thats entirely up to interpretation, but I would rather have one assumed spot on my team and the rest to be creative with rather than losing the assumed spot and filling up three trying to fill the assumed mons role. If you think this promotes lazier teambuilding or playing that's up to you, but as far as I'm concerned its simply less fun.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

I suppose -ate is alot stronger than Protean. (-ate = STAB + LO, Protean = STAB)

-ate are 2nd most popular ability right behind Poison Heal.
75% of the teams were using an -ate.
Protean was used on 1/3 of the teams in phase 1.

There are some abilities which are good against Protean but are underused due offering nothing vs -ate.
(Solid Rock, Simple, Speed Boost, weather abilities)

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

I suppose -ate is alot stronger than Protean. (-ate = STAB + LO, Protean = STAB)

-ate are 2nd most popular ability right behind Poison Heal.
75% of the teams were using an -ate.
Protean was used on 1/3 of the teams in phase 1.

There are some abilities which are good against Protean but are underused due offering nothing vs -ate.
(Solid Rock, Simple, Speed Boost, weather abilities)

Protean effectively increases both attacking stats by 50% due to STAB on everything. The -ates only give a larger power boost to normal-type moves and make them STAB, in the case of Kyurem-B/Kyurem-W, M-Ray, and M-Diancie, which I think are the most common users of -ate abilities.

 

[E4 Flint]

Hello all
The votes have been counted and here are the final results:

Ban: 20
NoBan: 11
Abstain: 3

With 20 votes, the majority required for a decision has been reached and therefore:
Protean has been banned from Balanced Hackmons effective immediately.


Recap:

• Discussion
• Voter Identification Thread
• Protean Vote Thread

Thanks everyone for participating!

Note about the Feedback:
It was difficult to draw conclusions for sure since I don't think everyone voted but it seems the majority did enjoy the two phase system which I was pretty happy about. As always, any final remarks about the suspect process itself can be mentioned here or to me in private message.

Thanks!

:(

original image: http://wupar.deviantart.com/art/Mewtwo-is-Sad-182930067​

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[GmU pokeboss9]

There were a few polls to select during suspect voting, but none fitted for me.

I think phase 1 was not needed as most who gained requirements had a high ladder account.
It would have helped whose who did not have one to get phase1 requirements.

Phase 2 was harder anyway, so there is no reason making phase1 harder than it should.

 

[CallMeLefty]

There were a few polls to select during suspect voting, but none fitted for me.

I think phase 1 was not needed as most who gained requirements had a high ladder account.
It would have helped whose who did not have one to get phase1 requirements.

Phase 2 was harder anyway, so there is no reason making phase1 harder than it should.

Suspects are meant to work that way: they are a proof that you can get high ladder not simply by slowly grinding your way up there through hundreds of games, and thus players had to create new alts. If we only had suspect 2, people that just had the luck to get an old that really benefited from not having protean couldve gotten the reqs.
Additionally, it was during phase 1 that the reflection about protean was the most interesting, simply because the phase allowed you to play, feel the impact of protean, and not just theorymon according to what you remembered when you were focussed on other metas, your account just sitting high ladder, playing a few games a week to prevent decay.

 

[nyan kat]

Hey guys, I've been messing around a bit on the ladder with it, so now I'm calling for a Gengarite ban in the meta. For those of you that don't know, Gengarite is an item that allows Gengar to Mega-Evolve into Mega Gengar, granting access to the banned ability Shadow Tag. The main set I will be referring to in this post will be this one.

Theoretically, due to the Perish Trap combo, no walls get a chance to Recover, lest they get trapped and killed. Due to this, the majority of walls can be worn down with hazards and attacks, and eventually have to use Recover, after which they are trapped and killed by Gengar. The cases exempt from this are Poison Heal, Ghost-type, Prankster, Regenerator, Magic Bounce, shed shell, and faster Pokemon. Despite this, Gengar excels at removing specific walls unable to use the aforementioned things, making holes in the opponents team that can facilitate sweeps. The very same traits that made Shadow Tag broken are present in Gengar, although it is more one-dimensional. Even so, Gengar has the speed necessary to trap the majority of the metagame, and can eliminate specific Pokemon with its high SpA and selected moves.

The main drawback of Gengar is having a notable chunk of the metagame that cannot be trapped and killed. While Ghost-types and Prankster or Magic Bounce Pokemon easily escape Shadow Tag Gengar, Regenerator and Poison Heal users can still be trapped and killed. Like any other regular wall, they still are limited to using a switching move or something of the like such as Nuzzle or Whirlwind. Being unable to choose more than 1 or 2 of their given moves can turn them into dead weight for a team, and they can be in trouble if more damage is taken than can be recovered in a turn. It is also simply unreasonable to expect every wall in a team to be of a certain type, and having Shadow Tag extremely limits the opponent's playstyle and team. Even removing just one wall from a balance or stall team can cause it to lose.

Another thing holding back Shadow Tag Gengar is that the majority of the metagame currently uses U-turn or some form of it. Despite this, some Pokemon struggle to fit it in their moveset, like on Mold Breaker or Poison Heal sets. These sets still are unable to make use of Recover or additional moves like Stealth Rock or Will-o-Wisp, and like any other Pokemon, can be worn down with hazards or attacks. Some bulky Pokemon that also have strong offenses, like Mega Tyranitar, can also scare Gengar from switching in, but this can be played around using slow pivots or predictions.

Shed Shell is another option that defends against Shadow Tag. However, the prevalence of Knock Off in the tier makes it hard to hold onto this item, and some Pokemon, mainly Chansey and Poison Heal users, simply can't afford to run it. Normal Pokemon also prefer to make use of the itemslot to carry Safety Goggles to block Spore or run other items.

Another major flaw is that Shadow Tag Gengar is highly noticeable from Team Preview, as it is the only reason one would use normal Gengar over its Mega form. It is obvious whether or not your opponent is carrying Shadow Tag Gengar, but there is still little that can be done to play around getting trapped, except for keeping it out by using offensive pressure, which is something that could have been done against several of the other previous bans, like the Primals. It also seems like Gengar should be easy to remove with Pursuit, but something intended to trap Gengar can actually get trapped itself if King's Shield is used.

All in all, many of the characteristics that made Shadow Tag broken in the first place are present in Shadow Tag Gengar. It is near impossible to prepare for, and although it may find itself useless against certain team builds, so did the Primals. There has been very little testing so far with it, so I encourage you all to try it for yourself and test possible ways to counter it. Gengar can run many potential sets, like Encore with boost passing. I myself have messed around with sets like this to kill Specs -Ate or this one. From my experience, Shadow Tag Gengar is simply uncompetitive, so I hope we can get a suspect going in the near future.

Thanks for reading, replays should be here. (I downloaded them instead of uploading)

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

If we can ban something uncompetitive I would like to suggest Moody.

Moody is extremely luck-dependant, not to mention it is also slappable on any mon with decent speed or defense. The current staple from what I have seen is Moody + Sub/Shield/STAB or Stored Power/filler. With Taunt and Spiky Shield it can even kill most shedinjas barring Volt Switch or Pain Split variants. Taunt in general shuts down most walls without Magic Bounce and if you do have Magic Bounce then you have a chance to get crippled by a STAB Scald burn or just plain die to boosted Stored Powers. With King's Shield and a coverage move it beats most of not all of Taunt's sets, killing Magic Bounce Dark-Types with a coverage or just straight up killing its walls with boosted coverages.

Another factor which makes moody uncompetitive if not broken is evasion. Having a chance to boost evasion pretty much pushes Moody to be even more uncompetitive. After an evasion boost, it is near impossible to hit through Sub + KS/SS and if the Moody mon gets a defense or spdef boost then it will just live the hit and proceed to sub/shield until you miss.

In general currently this is why I think Moody is uncompetitive, even though it may not be necessarily broken. It may not be as powerful as Protean or -ate from the get-go but after boosts it can get out of hand extremely quickly with Stored Power and Evasion.

 

[Lcass4919]

flint just implement a moody clause already. i don't think anyone supports moody in the tier with a legitimate excuse. its a luck based element fused with a hax-based element. that actually has a "wincon" built in. and its guarenteed without even taking to account items or abilities. moody is literally on a different level to other abilities, its not JUST luck based. its not JUST hax based, and its not JUST broken. its a combination of 33% of each. its luck because moodys effect is randomized, its hax based because of evasion, and its broken because its literally an ability that potentially gives you +6 in EVERY stat. even without evasion i think its STILL too much. after 2 turns stored power reaches 100 base power. and if you keep subbing and KSing even without evasion, eventually the pokemons bulk, speed, and offenses will be too high to dream of stopping. evasion doesnt break moody. its just icing to the cake. mewtwo just needs a bulky mon you have to rely on in this meta so it can set up a sub, and start fishing for boosts...evasion or not, your going to struggle vs it.

 

[HailFall]

I'm not exactly convinced moody adds anything of competitive value to the tier but honestly there are bigger fish to fry right now. Moody certainly doesn't make the meta unplayable and isn't even exceedingly common. Yes, it's dumb because of evasion boosts and such but there is counterplay such as heart swap, phazing, and unaware darks.

Rather than going through a whole second wave of suspect testing for something as insignificant and inconsistent as moody, I would first rather see a suspect test on bigger issues such as -ates. There would need a waiting period for the meta to settle before suspecting -ates so I suppose there is potential to hold a moody suspect test in that timeframe however. My only concern is that we'll just be partaking in suspect test after suspect test.

If there was to be a suspect test on moody however, I suggest providing an option to ban the combination of moody + stored power as I'm really not sure moody is much of a problem if it can't be paired with stored power in the first place

 

[CactusCacti]

Can we get -ate gone or sleep clause first suspected first, please?

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Hey guys, I've been messing around a bit on the ladder with it, so now I'm calling for a Gengarite ban in the meta. For those of you that don't know, Gengarite is an item that allows Gengar to Mega-Evolve into Mega Gengar, granting access to the banned ability Shadow Tag. The main set I will be referring to in this post will be this one.

Theoretically, due to the Perish Trap combo, no walls get a chance to Recover, lest they get trapped and killed. Due to this, the majority of walls can be worn down with hazards and attacks, and eventually have to use Recover, after which they are trapped and killed by Gengar. The cases exempt from this are Poison Heal, Ghost-type, Prankster, Regenerator, Magic Bounce, shed shell, and faster Pokemon. Despite this, Gengar excels at removing specific walls unable to use the aforementioned things, making holes in the opponents team that can facilitate sweeps. The very same traits that made Shadow Tag broken are present in Gengar, although it is more one-dimensional. Even so, Gengar has the speed necessary to trap the majority of the metagame, and can eliminate specific Pokemon with its high SpA and selected moves.

The main drawback of Gengar is having a notable chunk of the metagame that cannot be trapped and killed. While Ghost-types and Prankster or Magic Bounce Pokemon easily escape Shadow Tag Gengar, Regenerator and Poison Heal users can still be trapped and killed. Like any other regular wall, they still are limited to using a switching move or something of the like such as Nuzzle or Whirlwind. Being unable to choose more than 1 or 2 of their given moves can turn them into dead weight for a team, and they can be in trouble if more damage is taken than can be recovered in a turn. It is also simply unreasonable to expect every wall in a team to be of a certain type, and having Shadow Tag extremely limits the opponent's playstyle and team. Even removing just one wall from a balance or stall team can cause it to lose.

Another thing holding back Shadow Tag Gengar is that the majority of the metagame currently uses U-turn or some form of it. Despite this, some Pokemon struggle to fit it in their moveset, like on Mold Breaker or Poison Heal sets. These sets still are unable to make use of Recover or additional moves like Stealth Rock or Will-o-Wisp, and like any other Pokemon, can be worn down with hazards or attacks. Some bulky Pokemon that also have strong offenses, like Mega Tyranitar, can also scare Gengar from switching in, but this can be played around using slow pivots or predictions.

Shed Shell is another option that defends against Shadow Tag. However, the prevalence of Knock Off in the tier makes it hard to hold onto this item, and some Pokemon, mainly Chansey and Poison Heal users, simply can't afford to run it. Normal Pokemon also prefer to make use of the itemslot to carry Safety Goggles to block Spore or run other items.

Another major flaw is that Shadow Tag Gengar is highly noticeable from Team Preview, as it is the only reason one would use normal Gengar over its Mega form. It is obvious whether or not your opponent is carrying Shadow Tag Gengar, but there is still little that can be done to play around getting trapped, except for keeping it out by using offensive pressure, which is something that could have been done against several of the other previous bans, like the Primals. It also seems like Gengar should be easy to remove with Pursuit, but something intended to trap Gengar can actually get trapped itself if King's Shield is used.

All in all, many of the characteristics that made Shadow Tag broken in the first place are present in Shadow Tag Gengar. It is near impossible to prepare for, and although it may find itself useless against certain team builds, so did the Primals. There has been very little testing so far with it, so I encourage you all to try it for yourself and test possible ways to counter it. Gengar can run many potential sets, like Encore with boost passing. I myself have messed around with sets like this to kill Specs -Ate or this one. From my experience, Shadow Tag Gengar is simply uncompetitive, so I hope we can get a suspect going in the near future.

Thanks for reading, replays should be here. (I downloaded them instead of uploading)

One thing that makes me reluctant to ban manual MGar is that it gains very little. Sure it gets a better premega ability and moves, but it already had most of the moves it needed/wanted (taunt, Psong, its stabs) and everything can theoretically defeat it. In order to avoid trapping, you need one of 5 things: Shed Shell, a pivot move, a ghost typing, Soundproof, or offensive presence. The second option stops it from beating balance, the 5th from beating most offense, the 3rd from trapping 2 of the greatest bulkmons (aegislash, Giratina) who are also some of its biggest targets due to being weak to its stab. Even on other playstyles, you can escape by sacrificing a movelot, item, or ability. It might be uncompetative, but to me it seems like confuse ray in standard- unquestionably noncompetitive, but just not good enough for a ban.

flint just implement a moody clause already. i don't think anyone supports moody in the tier with a legitimate excuse. its a luck based element fused with a hax-based element. that actually has a "wincon" built in. and its guarenteed without even taking to account items or abilities. moody is literally on a different level to other abilities, its not JUST luck based. its not JUST hax based, and its not JUST broken. its a combination of 33% of each. its luck because moodys effect is randomized, its hax based because of evasion, and its broken because its literally an ability that potentially gives you +6 in EVERY stat. even without evasion i think its STILL too much. after 2 turns stored power reaches 100 base power. and if you keep subbing and KSing even without evasion, eventually the pokemons bulk, speed, and offenses will be too high to dream of stopping. evasion doesnt break moody. its just icing to the cake. mewtwo just needs a bulky mon you have to rely on in this meta so it can set up a sub, and start fishing for boosts...evasion or not, your going to struggle vs it.

The problem is, it isn't any of these. It's not broken- vs most teams, its not particularly good. It has counterplay not dependant on hax- Hoopa-U, Unaware psychic resists, whirlwind magic bounce, heart swap, offensive pressure to prevent setup, taunt of your own, sleeping them (or really any status), specific counters (regenvest dark types, unaware meleotta, unaware dark types, special defense boosting)... Sure, evasion is RNG based, but you can make it not an issue by stealing it from them, no guard, or things that just don't care how boosted it is.

Can we get -ate gone or sleep clause first suspected first, please?

^Basically this. I don't think -ate deserves to go, but I wouldn't be super opposed to a suspect, and sleep deserves to at least be looked at. No matter how you slice it, those and others are bigger issues.

 

[Klang]

In my opinion there's simply nothing else to say about Gengarite other than its entire purpose is to evade an existing ban, and it should be banned by consequence of the Shadow Tag ban without even being suspected because of that.

And if anyone is planning on bringing up Medichamite or Mawilite as a way to counter that argument, in this case the lack of item + shit attack stat completely negate the point of the ability. With Gengarite this isn't the case.

I might edit this post with my thoughts on Moody once I get to a computer.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

In my opinion there's simply nothing else to say about Gengarite other than its entire purpose is to evade an existing ban, and it should be banned by consequence of the Shadow Tag ban without even being suspected because of that.

And if anyone is planning on bringing up Medichamite or Mawilite as a way to counter that argument, in this case the lack of item + shit attack stat completely negate the point of the ability. With Gengarite this isn't the case.

I might edit this post with my thoughts on Moody once I get to a computer.

That's intended, though. Lots of banned mechanics can be gained with an item, be they PDon/Ogre with orb, HP/PP/PB with stones, evasion with lax incense/brightpoweder... Shadow Tag is the reason to ban Gengarite, yes, but just because Gengarite gives access to it doesn't make it instantly bannable

• An item ban can also be considered if it allows Pokemon access to mechanics that have already been banned (see FAQ). Examples of this include Red Orb turning Groudon into Groudon-Primal, or Gengar receiving Shadow Tag through a manual Mega-Evolution. For this, the Pokemon with the item would have to be evaluated as if it were a new Pokemon ban, except the Ability and Item would obviously be preset.

here saying that it'll need to be tested again, not instabanned

• Why have you allowed access to banned mechanics through items such as Mega Evolution and Primal Reversion?
  Having the item puts in a limitation on what can be run and must be analyzed separately with that implied, especially if a mechanic has already been banned. For example, Primal Groudon limited by Red Orb and Desolate Land has a completely different impact on the tier than having unchecked Primal Groudon in the tier.

^gengarite is totally different from just shadow tag. It might still be broken, but one does not necessarily cause the other.

 

[morogrim]

A few comments on the few things being discussed:

- Moody, the one thing I hate the most in BH. I won't really say anything about this ability because my opinion is probably biased, all I'm going to say is there are more important things to worry about atm (such as -ate).

- Looking at those replays and nyan's points, I feel like Gengarite does deserve to be looked into in the future, but I still think -ate should be looked into first. Also keep in mind that a lot of those Gengar traps happened because of nyan outplaying the opponent and could have been prevented/predicted. I'm still not completely convinced that Gengarite would operate in the same manner in less capable hands.

- Finally, -ate is the ability that should be suspected next imo. I'll edit this post and add my own reasons if there is a need for it but I think it's pretty self explanatory.

 

[CallMeLefty]

I completely agree with what morogrim said, and nyan's point was extremely convincing. The replays clearly show how gengar put in work, and predicting wasnt even key: he sometimes just clicks gengar every time chansey/audino is in, which is completely understandable. To me, it completely justifies a ban. Gengarite doesnt have to be banned automatically because of tag, but gengar's speed, typing and offensive power definitely justifies banning it.
However, the reason gengar is so good is because it breaks walls extremely well. Thus, if we are planning on suspecting -ates, i would wait to ban gengar, as banning -ates may shift the metagame towards offense enough to make gengar less worth it, since it tends to be a deadweight against those teams.

Regarding moody, i would say that banning it would be positive for the simple reason that there is no negative to it, and as lcass said, it is both uncompetitive and hax-reliant.

Finally, i do not feel like a suspect is required for either of those, simply because they are not used enough to really feel their impact on the metagame. A suspect is more justified for broken mons, while those are simply uncompetitive.

Right now, everyone just seems to be waiting for someone to really start the debate about -ates... We all know its coming. I none does, I guess I'll do something this week end when my exams are done.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

... Thanks for reading, replays should be here. (I downloaded them instead of uploading)

I checked these 6 replays,
R1 + R2 Yvnetal Pursuited enemy M-Gengar, R3 was a stall team with no ghost type, R4 very similar team as R2, R5 and R6 enemy made mistakes.

i have seen someone arround 1700 using a similar Gengar, i think it was Klang ?!
Personally i have faced such a team once.

This is Gengars time to shine,
It can beat M-Ray, M-Diancle and Chansey. With all that walls arround he can come in very easily via U-Turn / Parting Shot.
I would call it he has maximum effectivness right now.

 

[Super Blooper]

I agree with moro for the most part as well. Both Gengarite and Moody are things worth looking into and potentially removing, but ates is far more absurd right now.