Ok, I think you're working under a completely different definition of the term 'wall' from everyone else. The term 'to wall', as I and the vast majority of other people understand it, means to be able to be able to easily switch in, take any hit and consistently recover off the damage - a wall for a Pokemon, by definition, is a counter to that Pokemon, and in fact the two terms are often used interchangeably. A Pokemon that takes a clean 50% and is 2HKO'd after rocks is not a wall by the accepted definition of the word.
I'm not trying not to be overly nitpicky here, but this quote really bugged me. Unless I'm misunderstanding you (please correct me if I am), you're saying that running Bolt Strike (a coverage move used to hit a specific set of checks/counters) on Kyu-B is bad because it could instead be running Precipice Blades (a coverage move used to hit a specific set of checks/counters). They are completely different moves used for coverage against completely different threats, and I'm really not sure why you're so adamant that Bolt Strike is bad. If Aerilate and Pixilate were banned, the rise of Refrigerate would undoubtedly cause an upswing in the number of Water-types being run, which would make Bolt Strike a very useful move to have; this was the case in XY, and I've got no doubt it would happen again here. As well, Kyogre only runs King's Shield so much to avoid getting revenge killed by MRay and MDiancie, which would not be a concern for it if Aerilate and Pixilate were banned, and thus the usage of King's Shield could be expected to drop.
A wall can usually all of that, minus the switching in part- that's a counter. Generally, walls can switch in on some moves, and once in it “walls” the mon to the point that it can't break through. Not all counters are walls, however, and not all walls are counters- there is just lots of overlap.. As far as official definitions (and in my experience actual use of) the word goes, you have it almost the opposite. Furthermore, walls are more generic- a physical wall doesn't counter a given physical mon, it acts as a stop to all/most. A wall
for something is a little different, but it's the same idea- something that stops it once both are in, a set that it can't break through. If there is a increased usage of it in the fashion you say, then yes, eventually the term will change in meaning. That doesn't mean that it should be used in that way now, though, especially since we have no word that means the same as wall does now, and one that means the same thing as your understanding- the word counter itself.
Yeah, that's not what I was trying to say, and if it was I'd be pretty stupid. Mediocre probably isn't the right word there- suboptimal, maybe, or <adjective form of other options>. For cube, fakespeed is required, and for the last two it has options- boomburst is good, precipice blades is good, she'd killer is good, boosting is great, king's Shield is good- and while moves like Bolt Strike and Close Combat are nice, they aren't really on the same level in terms of what they beat. Bolt Strike really is solely for water types, which while not irrelevant are solidly less viable than the steel types handled by precipice blades or shedinja, and it doesn't let Cube be a GSI for water types either (not at all a requirement, but if it did it would be a lot more useful).
PH isn't taken into account because it doesn't trigger on first turn, and can be negated by rocks. Consequently, PH tytar is at best a mediocre check, especially if you add something like pdon that forces it out, as if is then at max 86% upon entering (without rocks), so it is just a one time check.Also, without speed and just HP on tytar, uninvested kube does outspeed and 2HKO with boomburst after rocks/turn 1)
0 SpA Refrigerate Kyurem-B Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 195-231 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Regarding Lati@s, they also get blown back by Espeed+Boomburst (or even just ESpeed), even when invested:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Latias: 153-180 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 231-273 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
You need fur coat, hence a defensive set, in order for latias to reliably switch into it.
Also, to support MAMP and correct your third vocabulary error (At this point, I am kinda done with this, please check what you're saying instead of assuming the opposing side is always wrong):
A counter :"a Pokémon set that has an advantage over another Pokémon set such that it can switch into an attack from that other Pokémon and easily defeat it or force it to switch out."
A wall: " a Pokémon set that, due to its combination of HP and Defense and/or Special Defense, takes a comparatively low percentage of damage from physical moves or special moves or both. Commonly branched into the categories physical wall, special wall, and mixed wall"
(source:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Appendix:Metagame_terminology#Wall)
In the issue at hand, being a great mixed wall is equivalent to being an -ate counter. A wall is to a counter what a counter is to a check. thus, a wall IS a counter, but a counter isn't always a wall in the sense that a wall is not always requiring something in particular to wall. And it brings us back to my argument, which MAMP let's me make more precise: only walls can take on -aters.
Additionally, MAMP is even more right regarding the every-day use (I am that much of a nerd) of the terms "wall" and "to wall" (there is also a slight meaning difference between the noun and the verb, going in the sense of MAMP's argument).
Finally, on a general note, I think that the argument over refrigerate should simply be dealt with by experimenting, aka suspecting it separately. Arguing over bulk isn't really important as it is -ater's offensive prowesses that make them so good. I do believe that refrigerate should be banned as well, but I don't think it is really possible to be certain without testing. The suspect is a cheap price (one week)compared to the shots that are currently being fired.
Edit: to answer BP Scrub, I am using the check definition as a GSI(guaranteed switch-in), as defined is the link posted in my previous post. You calcs do show that it Latias beats it, but it still means that the player has to sack a mon every time. Even, if according to this definition (which also works), Latias is a check, the point remains unchanged: offensive teams need to sack a mon every time an -ater comes in.
First off, don't use bulbapedia to back your claims. Not only are they not an authoritative source (the whole wiki thing + focus on quantity of information over quality), they are also usually very vague and unclear, especially here (relatively low damage? Really?). Additionally, even under this definition they fit, as compared to most other mon’s they take little- just somewhat more than the bulky resists like Registeel and Aegislash. Practice what you preach, and all that. The official definition is “a pokemon intended to take physical or special attacks effectively and consistently over the course of a battle”.
Secondly, in no way does that make Tyranitar a mediocre check. It lives two hits (comfortably with PH), can OHKO, can regenerate the HP lost to rocks/attacks reasonably swiftly, can gain even more reliable healing+play mind games with attack using king's shield, can switch in on some attacks multiple times, and has great metagame viability otherwise.
Third- if you want something to switch in recover off health and/or force it out, that's a counter, not a check.
The point I'm trying to make here, really, is that while -ate is a great revenging tool it's by no means a “sack something every time it comes in” threat. Not only do so many offensive threats beat it 1v1, there are also a few that can switch in once or twice while still being viable- and offense is the playstyle most weak to -ate bar stall vs specs ray, which is a totally different can of worms. Sure, it's the same ability, but they aren't used on the same sets- you can threaten stall or offense, but not effectively both.
-But, it is relevant. Do people commonly run physicaly defensive -ate Ray? Or even just merely bulky? I mean, you can, but is it common? No, it's not. I could make arguements that Kyu-B is broken because it runs Choice Band Fridge Explosion but, that's extremely rare. It can run it, but it doesn't. Hence why I use the standard sets, they're representative of what's common. And, in common play, regardless of the BST, Kyurem is bulkier than Rayquaza, even if Ray has the capability of matching its bulk.
-IMO, if my wall is taking 50% damage, I'm going to wish it had a resist so it could take the hits consistently.
-But, it can and does run those. Typical Kyu-B runs Fake Out / Extreme Speed / Bolt Strike / Filler, with the last slot being needed coverage or needed utility (usually Ground coverage, King's Shield, U-Turn, or Sword Dance, but there's more valid options like Leech Seed, Taunt, Spore, and Recover) and, if Boltbeam coverage isn't needed, Bolt Strike being adjustable as well (I actually have it slashed with Thousand Arrows and Earth Power on the analysis, though with Aggron having slipped into obscurity, the latter is a little outdated).
-I don't know what standard Metagross runs, but checking 252 HP / 252+ Atk Metagross shows it threatens a KO with Gear Grind, though can only switch into Kyu-B with Tarrows once and Bolt Strike twice. It can also only switch into Kyu-W's Boomburst once. 252 HP Primal Don takes around 75% from Fake Speed, making is a very shaky soft counter to Kyu-B (unless it runs Ice Plate or Life Orb, in which case Kyu-B wins) and goes down in one shot to Boomburst unless it runs specially defensive, in which case Kyu-W just needs Steath Rock up to finish the job.
-Kyogre only burns 30% of the time. It's something to keep in mind, but Kyogre needs to hit Kyu-B on the switch or if it's silly enough to stay in after a KS. Sword Dance sets can, theoretically, boost enough to not care about the burns, but that largely depends on if its running recover too and if Kyogre is Moonblasting or not. Note that 252+ Sp. A Moonblast only does around 70%, meaning if it goes for the attack, it drops to Bolt Strike and Kyu-B barely lives to Fakespeed another day.
It is, but Diancie cannot switch into Boomburst. It just auto-loses if Kyu-W has a Scarf or has gotten a Q.Dance set-up, but wins otherwise if it gets in safely. Second, I brought those up already with my "HULK MIXED SMASH" comments and I already brought up the speed, which is why they run 252 Atk / 252+ Spe. On the predictablity things though, they run mixed because that's what they do, but they have the cost of expending three moveslots to do so to Fake Speed and Boomburst. Therefore, they must run coverage for the last slot or give up something to be more versatile. Boomburst means no mixed, Extreme Speed means no mixed, and Fake Out you lose on a very important damage/utility tool. They can be versatile and unpredictable, but their severe 4MSS means they lose a lot and, in my experience, often become less dangerous as a result.
Not that Kyurem doesn't suffer 4MSS, but it's mostly on what utility and coverage it runs, it rarely needs to give up STABs.
I have to agree with most of this, but some of it...
People don't run defensive Ray because their isn't a niche for a bulky atespeeder- speed is so much better. If you wanted one, however, MRay does it completely and totally better bar the type of -ate, with the added bonus of unpredictability. Basically, bulky KYub isn't a useful arguing point because you shouldn't use it- speed>bulk, and MRay>KYub. The reason to use Cube is for refridge and not dying to refridge, not it's slightly superior defensive stats (in fact, HP KYub has a comparatively smaller advantage due to it relying on HP)
It might just be because my sole experience with using KYub was on one team where I copied it off haylighter, but precipice blades is far superior to Tarrows (what flying type comes in on KYub, and what levitator is really viable post protean) and bolt strike. Like, thousand arrows hits se targets as hard as a neutral espeed/neutral targets as hard as a resisted espeed, and on the first turn vs flyings/levitators it is neutral.
If Kyogre sets up a quiver dance on the switch then cube just loses flat out, it can't safely come in on steam eruption or moonblast, king's Shield lets Kyogre potentially 1v1 it- it's not a great matchup for kyogre, sure, but cube in no way shits on kyogre.
Basically, from where I'm standing everyone is overhyping (not exactly the right word) -ates. Are they amazing tools for offense/balance, and great additions to most teams? Definitely. Are they some kind of auto win button, a guaranteed KOer, or capable of invalidating play styles? Absolutely not. I'm not opposed to a suspect in general principles- I'm pretty confident in the result and if the majority of the players think it's unfun regardless of its brokenness then it should go- but I think there are more important considerations, like sleep, moody, and even manual evolution gengar.
TL;
DR: -ate isn't as broken as people say, and while this doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed there are other issues that should probably be talked about first.
E: what is spelling. This should be readable now.
