Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I've been thinking on it a bit, and I think the ideal solution is to have a 3 week suspect test - first week would be the meta in its current state, second week would be with Aerilate and Pixilate gone, and third week would be with -ates banned entirely. Then, users who get reqs get to vote to either not ban -ate, ban Aerilate and Pixilate, or ban all 3. This is a best of both worlds solution, giving us an opportunity to see what the meta is like with just Refrigerate and with -ate gone entirely. This means we can make a decision on Refrigerate based on actual evidence rather than hypotheticals without having to go through the entire suspect process twice. The only issue with this I can see is that making people get reqs 3 times would be a nuisance, perhaps the COIL value could be lowered such that people don't have to play as many matches to get reqs?

On another note, can the tangential debates be kept to a minimum please? We really don't need a discussion on whether or not Kyurem has a better defensive typing than MDiancie or if MLati can check MRay in this thread, and it only distracts from the important issues being discussed. I admit I'm guilty of this too, but I'm gonna stop from this point onwards.
I think thats a good idea, I second this.

For those who think frig should just be banned along with the other two, the reason I think that frig should be suspected separately is mainly due to the low usage it has currently. This means that even though frig is probably on a similar level as the other two, we cannot say that for sure until we actually play in a meta where it is used as often as aerilate and pixilate.
 
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The only reason that frig doesnt seem "as bad" is cause pixilate and aerilate are way better with their abusers right now
If we had 170 atk and 170 spa ice type with 100+ speed, it'd be used just as much as the rest, dont lie to yourself on that.

It's basicly no different than pixilate and aerilate, they all hit with their own resist and weaknesses, but they all share the same shit;
+30% damage, STAB and extremely powerful priority and special move, that gets boosted absurdly

If you just ban aerilate and pixilate, kyurems will return to the game, and you will still need the same old registeel or furcoat chansey on your team to stop it, now its just going to be one or other being more stronger, the special or the physical side depending on the kyurem used.

Regardless, both have enough attack to abuse fake out + e speed enough to keep offensive mons in check

Seriously, you can basicly argue the typing shit with aerilate and pixilate as much as you want, all the ates have their own stronger hits and their abusers have the weaknesses, but they are all still in the principle and mechanic wise the same, which is the core problem of the abilities in question
 
To start with, what Cube runs is completely irrelevant next to the base stats, because MRay could also invest in HP and get the same effect- it's just so much worse. Arguing that cube is bulkier because of it usually runs is pointless.

I’m not going to argue about walls taking 50% ish making them mediocre, because that's totally fair. These walls aren't even resists, though, so it's just mostly showing that you don't need resists.


Cube running bolt strike isn't necessarily a bad thing, until you consider that it could be running something useful like precipice blades or a shed killer. Furthermore, kyogre almost always runs king's shield, and KYub definitely needs to fear being burned.

-But, it is relevant. Do people commonly run physicaly defensive -ate Ray? Or even just merely bulky? I mean, you can, but is it common? No, it's not. I could make arguements that Kyu-B is broken because it runs Choice Band Fridge Explosion but, that's extremely rare. It can run it, but it doesn't. Hence why I use the standard sets, they're representative of what's common. And, in common play, regardless of the BST, Kyurem is bulkier than Rayquaza, even if Ray has the capability of matching its bulk.

-IMO, if my wall is taking 50% damage, I'm going to wish it had a resist so it could take the hits consistently.

-But, it can and does run those. Typical Kyu-B runs Fake Out / Extreme Speed / Bolt Strike / Filler, with the last slot being needed coverage or needed utility (usually Ground coverage, King's Shield, U-Turn, or Sword Dance, but there's more valid options like Leech Seed, Taunt, Spore, and Recover) and, if Boltbeam coverage isn't needed, Bolt Strike being adjustable as well (I actually have it slashed with Thousand Arrows and Earth Power on the analysis, though with Aggron having slipped into obscurity, the latter is a little outdated).


ORAS also added MMeta and PDon, two great checks and situational switchins.

Can't argue with most of this, but KYub doesn't really beat ogre due to moonblast/burns and/or king's shield. Additionally, there is no way Diancie isn't OHKOing MDos, close combat is run on all physical contrary, and most mixed (no room hahahahaha), and rock weakness really sucks vs TTar.
-I don't know what standard Metagross runs, but checking 252 HP / 252+ Atk Metagross shows it threatens a KO with Gear Grind, though can only switch into Kyu-B with Tarrows once and Bolt Strike twice. It can also only switch into Kyu-W's Boomburst once. 252 HP Primal Don takes around 75% from Fake Speed, making is a very shaky soft counter to Kyu-B (unless it runs Ice Plate or Life Orb, in which case Kyu-B wins) and goes down in one shot to Boomburst unless it runs specially defensive, in which case Kyu-W just needs Steath Rock up to finish the job.

-Kyogre only burns 30% of the time. It's something to keep in mind, but Kyogre needs to hit Kyu-B on the switch or if it's silly enough to stay in after a KS. Sword Dance sets can, theoretically, boost enough to not care about the burns, but that largely depends on if its running recover too and if Kyogre is Moonblasting or not. Note that 252+ Sp. A Moonblast only does around 70%, meaning if it goes for the attack, it drops to Bolt Strike and Kyu-B barely lives to Fakespeed another day.



Kyuw is easily OHKOd by light of ruin, so scarf it is. Additionally, those two reasons are huge- mixed offense is a huge selling point and is why you can't just wall with FC/Chansey, and ability to fit on teams is one of the biggest concerns in Pokemon. If you can only run it on 1 or 2 archetypes and requires specific team support, it's generally a lot worse. You also missed out on two fairly major points- MRay/Diancie are less predictable, and are much faster. With Diancie, you outspeed slaking and get to fakeburst it while taking only one attack, while with the ice twins it gets off at least a fakespeed pair- and more if it lives a hit.

It is, but Diancie cannot switch into Boomburst. It just auto-loses if Kyu-W has a Scarf or has gotten a Q.Dance set-up, but wins otherwise if it gets in safely. Second, I brought those up already with my "HULK MIXED SMASH" comments and I already brought up the speed, which is why they run 252 Atk / 252+ Spe. On the predictablity things though, they run mixed because that's what they do, but they have the cost of expending three moveslots to do so to Fake Speed and Boomburst. Therefore, they must run coverage for the last slot or give up something to be more versatile. Boomburst means no mixed, Extreme Speed means no mixed, and Fake Out you lose on a very important damage/utility tool. They can be versatile and unpredictable, but their severe 4MSS means they lose a lot and, in my experience, often become less dangerous as a result.

Not that Kyurem doesn't suffer 4MSS, but it's mostly on what utility and coverage it runs, it rarely needs to give up STABs.
 
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Ok, I think you're working under a completely different definition of the term 'wall' from everyone else. The term 'to wall', as I and the vast majority of other people understand it, means to be able to be able to easily switch in, take any hit and consistently recover off the damage - a wall for a Pokemon, by definition, is a counter to that Pokemon, and in fact the two terms are often used interchangeably. A Pokemon that takes a clean 50% and is 2HKO'd after rocks is not a wall by the accepted definition of the word.

I'm not trying not to be overly nitpicky here, but this quote really bugged me. Unless I'm misunderstanding you (please correct me if I am), you're saying that running Bolt Strike (a coverage move used to hit a specific set of checks/counters) on Kyu-B is bad because it could instead be running Precipice Blades (a coverage move used to hit a specific set of checks/counters). They are completely different moves used for coverage against completely different threats, and I'm really not sure why you're so adamant that Bolt Strike is bad. If Aerilate and Pixilate were banned, the rise of Refrigerate would undoubtedly cause an upswing in the number of Water-types being run, which would make Bolt Strike a very useful move to have; this was the case in XY, and I've got no doubt it would happen again here. As well, Kyogre only runs King's Shield so much to avoid getting revenge killed by MRay and MDiancie, which would not be a concern for it if Aerilate and Pixilate were banned, and thus the usage of King's Shield could be expected to drop.
A wall can usually all of that, minus the switching in part- that's a counter. Generally, walls can switch in on some moves, and once in it “walls” the mon to the point that it can't break through. Not all counters are walls, however, and not all walls are counters- there is just lots of overlap.. As far as official definitions (and in my experience actual use of) the word goes, you have it almost the opposite. Furthermore, walls are more generic- a physical wall doesn't counter a given physical mon, it acts as a stop to all/most. A wall for something is a little different, but it's the same idea- something that stops it once both are in, a set that it can't break through. If there is a increased usage of it in the fashion you say, then yes, eventually the term will change in meaning. That doesn't mean that it should be used in that way now, though, especially since we have no word that means the same as wall does now, and one that means the same thing as your understanding- the word counter itself.

Yeah, that's not what I was trying to say, and if it was I'd be pretty stupid. Mediocre probably isn't the right word there- suboptimal, maybe, or <adjective form of other options>. For cube, fakespeed is required, and for the last two it has options- boomburst is good, precipice blades is good, she'd killer is good, boosting is great, king's Shield is good- and while moves like Bolt Strike and Close Combat are nice, they aren't really on the same level in terms of what they beat. Bolt Strike really is solely for water types, which while not irrelevant are solidly less viable than the steel types handled by precipice blades or shedinja, and it doesn't let Cube be a GSI for water types either (not at all a requirement, but if it did it would be a lot more useful).
PH isn't taken into account because it doesn't trigger on first turn, and can be negated by rocks. Consequently, PH tytar is at best a mediocre check, especially if you add something like pdon that forces it out, as if is then at max 86% upon entering (without rocks), so it is just a one time check.Also, without speed and just HP on tytar, uninvested kube does outspeed and 2HKO with boomburst after rocks/turn 1)
0 SpA Refrigerate Kyurem-B Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 195-231 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal


Regarding Lati@s, they also get blown back by Espeed+Boomburst (or even just ESpeed), even when invested:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Latias: 153-180 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 231-273 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
You need fur coat, hence a defensive set, in order for latias to reliably switch into it.


Also, to support MAMP and correct your third vocabulary error (At this point, I am kinda done with this, please check what you're saying instead of assuming the opposing side is always wrong):
A counter :"a Pokémon set that has an advantage over another Pokémon set such that it can switch into an attack from that other Pokémon and easily defeat it or force it to switch out."
A wall: " a Pokémon set that, due to its combination of HP and Defense and/or Special Defense, takes a comparatively low percentage of damage from physical moves or special moves or both. Commonly branched into the categories physical wall, special wall, and mixed wall"
(source:http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Appendix:Metagame_terminology#Wall)
In the issue at hand, being a great mixed wall is equivalent to being an -ate counter. A wall is to a counter what a counter is to a check. thus, a wall IS a counter, but a counter isn't always a wall in the sense that a wall is not always requiring something in particular to wall. And it brings us back to my argument, which MAMP let's me make more precise: only walls can take on -aters.
Additionally, MAMP is even more right regarding the every-day use (I am that much of a nerd) of the terms "wall" and "to wall" (there is also a slight meaning difference between the noun and the verb, going in the sense of MAMP's argument).

Finally, on a general note, I think that the argument over refrigerate should simply be dealt with by experimenting, aka suspecting it separately. Arguing over bulk isn't really important as it is -ater's offensive prowesses that make them so good. I do believe that refrigerate should be banned as well, but I don't think it is really possible to be certain without testing. The suspect is a cheap price (one week)compared to the shots that are currently being fired.

Edit: to answer BP Scrub, I am using the check definition as a GSI(guaranteed switch-in), as defined is the link posted in my previous post. You calcs do show that it Latias beats it, but it still means that the player has to sack a mon every time. Even, if according to this definition (which also works), Latias is a check, the point remains unchanged: offensive teams need to sack a mon every time an -ater comes in.
First off, don't use bulbapedia to back your claims. Not only are they not an authoritative source (the whole wiki thing + focus on quantity of information over quality), they are also usually very vague and unclear, especially here (relatively low damage? Really?). Additionally, even under this definition they fit, as compared to most other mon’s they take little- just somewhat more than the bulky resists like Registeel and Aegislash. Practice what you preach, and all that. The official definition is “a pokemon intended to take physical or special attacks effectively and consistently over the course of a battle”.
Secondly, in no way does that make Tyranitar a mediocre check. It lives two hits (comfortably with PH), can OHKO, can regenerate the HP lost to rocks/attacks reasonably swiftly, can gain even more reliable healing+play mind games with attack using king's shield, can switch in on some attacks multiple times, and has great metagame viability otherwise.
Third- if you want something to switch in recover off health and/or force it out, that's a counter, not a check.

The point I'm trying to make here, really, is that while -ate is a great revenging tool it's by no means a “sack something every time it comes in” threat. Not only do so many offensive threats beat it 1v1, there are also a few that can switch in once or twice while still being viable- and offense is the playstyle most weak to -ate bar stall vs specs ray, which is a totally different can of worms. Sure, it's the same ability, but they aren't used on the same sets- you can threaten stall or offense, but not effectively both.
-But, it is relevant. Do people commonly run physicaly defensive -ate Ray? Or even just merely bulky? I mean, you can, but is it common? No, it's not. I could make arguements that Kyu-B is broken because it runs Choice Band Fridge Explosion but, that's extremely rare. It can run it, but it doesn't. Hence why I use the standard sets, they're representative of what's common. And, in common play, regardless of the BST, Kyurem is bulkier than Rayquaza, even if Ray has the capability of matching its bulk.

-IMO, if my wall is taking 50% damage, I'm going to wish it had a resist so it could take the hits consistently.

-But, it can and does run those. Typical Kyu-B runs Fake Out / Extreme Speed / Bolt Strike / Filler, with the last slot being needed coverage or needed utility (usually Ground coverage, King's Shield, U-Turn, or Sword Dance, but there's more valid options like Leech Seed, Taunt, Spore, and Recover) and, if Boltbeam coverage isn't needed, Bolt Strike being adjustable as well (I actually have it slashed with Thousand Arrows and Earth Power on the analysis, though with Aggron having slipped into obscurity, the latter is a little outdated).

-I don't know what standard Metagross runs, but checking 252 HP / 252+ Atk Metagross shows it threatens a KO with Gear Grind, though can only switch into Kyu-B with Tarrows once and Bolt Strike twice. It can also only switch into Kyu-W's Boomburst once. 252 HP Primal Don takes around 75% from Fake Speed, making is a very shaky soft counter to Kyu-B (unless it runs Ice Plate or Life Orb, in which case Kyu-B wins) and goes down in one shot to Boomburst unless it runs specially defensive, in which case Kyu-W just needs Steath Rock up to finish the job.

-Kyogre only burns 30% of the time. It's something to keep in mind, but Kyogre needs to hit Kyu-B on the switch or if it's silly enough to stay in after a KS. Sword Dance sets can, theoretically, boost enough to not care about the burns, but that largely depends on if its running recover too and if Kyogre is Moonblasting or not. Note that 252+ Sp. A Moonblast only does around 70%, meaning if it goes for the attack, it drops to Bolt Strike and Kyu-B barely lives to Fakespeed another day.

It is, but Diancie cannot switch into Boomburst. It just auto-loses if Kyu-W has a Scarf or has gotten a Q.Dance set-up, but wins otherwise if it gets in safely. Second, I brought those up already with my "HULK MIXED SMASH" comments and I already brought up the speed, which is why they run 252 Atk / 252+ Spe. On the predictablity things though, they run mixed because that's what they do, but they have the cost of expending three moveslots to do so to Fake Speed and Boomburst. Therefore, they must run coverage for the last slot or give up something to be more versatile. Boomburst means no mixed, Extreme Speed means no mixed, and Fake Out you lose on a very important damage/utility tool. They can be versatile and unpredictable, but their severe 4MSS means they lose a lot and, in my experience, often become less dangerous as a result.

Not that Kyurem doesn't suffer 4MSS, but it's mostly on what utility and coverage it runs, it rarely needs to give up STABs.
I have to agree with most of this, but some of it...
People don't run defensive Ray because their isn't a niche for a bulky atespeeder- speed is so much better. If you wanted one, however, MRay does it completely and totally better bar the type of -ate, with the added bonus of unpredictability. Basically, bulky KYub isn't a useful arguing point because you shouldn't use it- speed>bulk, and MRay>KYub. The reason to use Cube is for refridge and not dying to refridge, not it's slightly superior defensive stats (in fact, HP KYub has a comparatively smaller advantage due to it relying on HP)
It might just be because my sole experience with using KYub was on one team where I copied it off haylighter, but precipice blades is far superior to Tarrows (what flying type comes in on KYub, and what levitator is really viable post protean) and bolt strike. Like, thousand arrows hits se targets as hard as a neutral espeed/neutral targets as hard as a resisted espeed, and on the first turn vs flyings/levitators it is neutral.
If Kyogre sets up a quiver dance on the switch then cube just loses flat out, it can't safely come in on steam eruption or moonblast, king's Shield lets Kyogre potentially 1v1 it- it's not a great matchup for kyogre, sure, but cube in no way shits on kyogre.



Basically, from where I'm standing everyone is overhyping (not exactly the right word) -ates. Are they amazing tools for offense/balance, and great additions to most teams? Definitely. Are they some kind of auto win button, a guaranteed KOer, or capable of invalidating play styles? Absolutely not. I'm not opposed to a suspect in general principles- I'm pretty confident in the result and if the majority of the players think it's unfun regardless of its brokenness then it should go- but I think there are more important considerations, like sleep, moody, and even manual evolution gengar.


TL; DR: -ate isn't as broken as people say, and while this doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed there are other issues that should probably be talked about first.

E: what is spelling. This should be readable now.
 
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A wall can usually all of that, minus the switching in part- that's a counter. Generally, walls can switch in on some moves, and once in it “walls” the mon to the point that it can't break through. not all counters are walls, however, and not all walls are counters- there is just lots of overlap.. As far as official definitions (and in my experience actual use of) the word goes, you have it almost the opposite. Furthermore, walls are more generic- a physical wall doesn't counter a given physical mon, it acts as a stop to all/most. If there is a increased usage of it in the fashion you say, then yes, eventually the term will change in meaning. That doesn't mean that it should be used in that way now, though, especially since we have no word that means the same as wall does now, and one that means the same thing as your understanding- the word counter itself.

Yeah, that's not what I was trying to say, and if it was I'd be pretty stupid. Mediocre probably isn't the right word there- suboptimal, maybe, or <adjective form of other options>. For cube, fakespeed is required, and for the last two it has options- boomburst is good, precipice blades is good, she'd killer is good, boosting is great, king's Shield is good- and while moves like Bolt Strike and Close Combat are nice, they aren't really on the same level in terms of what they beat. Bolt Strike really is solely for water types, which while not irrelevant are solidly less viable than the steel types handled by precipice blades or shedinja, and it doesn't let Cube be a GSI for water types either (not at all a requirement, but if it did it would be a lot more useful).

First off, don't use bulbapedia to back your claims. Not only are they not an authoritative source (the whole wiki thing + focus on quantity of information over quality), they are also usually very vague and unclear, especially here (relatively low damage? Really?). Additionally, even under this definition they fit, as compared to most other mon’s they take little- just somewhat more than the bulky resists like Registeel and Aegislash. Practice what you preach, and all that. The official definition is “a pokemon intended to take physical or special attacks effectively and consistently over the course of a battle”.
Secondly, in no way does that make Tyranitar a mediocre check. It lives two hits (comfortably with PH), can OHKO, can regenerate the HP lost to rocks/attacks reasonably swiftly, can gain even more reliable healing+play mind games with attack using king's shield, can switch in on some attacks multiple times, and has great metagame viability otherwise.
Third- if you want something to switch in recover off health and/or force it out, that's a counter, not a check.

The point I'm trying to make here, really, is that while -ate is a great revenging tool it's by no means a “sack something every time it comes in” threat. Not only do so many offensive threats beat it 1v1, there are also a few that can switch in once or twice while still being viable- and offense is the playstyle most weak to -ate bar stall vs specs ray, which is a totally different can of worms. Sure, it's the same ability, but they aren't used on the same sets- you can threaten stall or offense, but not effectively both.
Edit: i got kinda mad in this comment so I am keeping the actually interesting content, and if someone is interested i can post it back in a spoiler. Some things are modified as well. I also apologize for getting overly aggressive.

"Wall
A Pokemon intended to take either physical or special attacks extremely effectively and consistently over the course of a battle.
Skarmory's enormous physical Defense makes it one of the most sturdy physical wall in the game. It also has access to Spikes, Roost, and Whirlwind, three moves that Skarmory has many opportunities to use."
Taken from:http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/pokemon_dictionary
Skarmory does switchin on half the metagame. Skarmory does switch into many of the threats and, for example, it counters Landorus-T. I am making this clear because if we don't talk about the same thing, then we can't really argue.

I am saying tytar is a mediocre check to Mega Ray because it is not sufficient at all to keep it at bay. A single prediction, a correct set, and simply a teammate forcing it out, and it is too low to perform its job. PH tytar does not enjoy GW earth power or spacial rend either, or turn 1 spore. I know PH tytar isnt sufficient to check rayquaza simply from experience: I am bored by balance, which is why I have tried to build offense, and it just doesn't work.
 
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bp scrub

rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
When a defensive mon is only 3hkoed by the opposing Pokemon, it can switch into it and still win, making it a counter, and it also can take the opposing Pokemon's attacks and heal them off, making is a wall.

If the mon is 2hkoed, it cannot switch in and therefore is not a counter, and cannot keep healing off the opponent's attacks, making it not a wall either.

For defensive Pokemon, being a wall and being a counter are synonymous
 
Please, this is Balanced Hackmons. It should be far more open with less bans. I don't think we should implement a sleep clause, I don't think we should ban Aerilate and I certainly don't think we should ban anymore pokemon. There's should be an immensely high benchmark for banning something in Balanced Hackmons, and I don't think Rayquaza, Aerilate or Sleep hits that benchmark.

Yes, nothing is counterable. Everything is pillars of bulk, or is immensely centralising or just uncompetitive like Moody.
 
Please, this is Balanced Hackmons. It should be far more open with less bans. I don't think we should implement a sleep clause, I don't think we should ban Aerilate and I certainly don't think we should ban anymore pokemon. There's should be an immensely high benchmark for banning something in Balanced Hackmons, and I don't think Rayquaza, Aerilate or Sleep hits that benchmark.

Yes, nothing is counterable. Everything is pillars of bulk, or is immensely centralising or just uncompetitive like Moody.
This attitude really pisses me off quite frankly, and it's holding back the BH metagame. This idea that BH shouldn't ban things, that we should just suck it up and deal with it when there's broken garbage ruining the tier, is a relic of the old Gen V metagame, a metagame which didn't have half the broken crap that we have today, and a metagame that is practically incomparable to current BH. It's horrendously outdated, and to just come into a serious discussion and just trot out 'Please, this is Balanced Hackmons. It should be far more open with less bans' with no supporting arguments and no justification whatsoever is extremely lazy and disrespectful to the discussion that's taking place here. Yes, BH is a broken and unbalanced meta, and it has been for a very long time, but that isn't a fundamental and eternal feature of the tier, and it's not something that can't be remedied. Sure, BH will probably never be as balanced as any standard tier, but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try to make it better. There is nothing that Balanced Hackmons intrinsically 'should' be except what the playerbase wants it to be, and the discussion that's taking place in this thread clearly shows that what the playerbase wants is a more balanced metagame - and if we need to ban some shit to achieve that, then so be it.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Please, this is Balanced Hackmons. It should be far more open with less bans. I don't think we should implement a sleep clause, I don't think we should ban Aerilate and I certainly don't think we should ban anymore pokemon. There's should be an immensely high benchmark for banning something in Balanced Hackmons, and I don't think Rayquaza, Aerilate or Sleep hits that benchmark.

Yes, nothing is counterable. Everything is pillars of bulk, or is immensely centralising or just uncompetitive like Moody.
There's something you don't get about BALANCED hackmons. I stopped playing because the Meta got extremely stale and centralized, and i don't think I'm the only one. Have an open mind.
 
I was just wondering would it be a good idea to ban mega ray and diance and kyu-b instead of the ates? This might bring more diverse picks into the metagame that would take over use of these abilities but give better options of dealing with them.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
On Moody:
I listened to all the discussion here about Moody and then observed many replays and attempted using it myself and ultimately this is how it can be boiled down, to me;
  • As a stat booster, it is not quite the greatest. It needs a lot of time to stay in and to extend this time, it needs to make use of a Protection based move, Substitute or more. While these moves are versatile in themselves and definitely merit being used, Moody needs both to operate to its greatest potential to increase stats. In essence, there are a lot of ways to increase stats that are better than it e.g. Simple
  • However, what Moody can do that the others cannot, is have a chance to greatly increase Evasion, the active raising of which is currently banned through the Evasion clause. Almost all the time, Moody users boil down to stalling until an evasion boost can be achieved, which greatly increases their staying-in power
  • So it is reasonable to say, the primary reason Moody is used over the other stat increasing options is that there is a decent chance of increasing evasion and therefore turn the game into whack a mole with its sub, while the Moody user is then free to either pass its other boosts, attack freely on its own or even stall for time. So when Moody comes into play, it is basically a game of chance both for getting the Evasion boost, and Evasion itself.
  • Moody vs Acupressure: Getting back to the first point, while using Moody, you also simultaneously have the chance to set yourself up with a sub or prevent any kind of damage or status condition happening to you while getting your stat increase. Acupressure does not offer the same advantages and still has Moody's weakness of not always giving a favorable boost. I may consider some kind of action about it later on albeit for the sake of completeness only, but I don't see any reason in removing it for any otherwise legitimate reason.
IMO because Moody's main use case is to evade an existing clause, I have decided to ban Moody with immediate effect. However, it is important to note that the main reason is because of the Evasion aspect. If this is removed in the future (e.g. gen 7 removes Moody's ability to raise Evasion, but can still raise other stats), any user may bring up the possibility of suspecting it to unban it.

Tagging The Immortal
Also this is my 250th post. Thanks for having me! I am really happy to lead my favorite metagame and interact with all of you
 
Please, this is Balanced Hackmons. It should be far more open with less bans

Yes, nothing is counterable. Everything is pillars of bulk, or is immensely centralising or just uncompetitive like Moody.

Best post in this topic. Can not be said better.



Im opposing Evasion Clause in Balanced Hackmons
Overcompetitivness has killed many video game(r/s).

I think Balanced Hackmons should always compare to Hackmons and Hackmons only.
Balanced Hackmons is the banlist of Hackmons.

Everything proven broken in Hackmons can be looked deeper into.
Hackmons Ban Standarts are; An easy victory over almost any strategy.



... Yes, BH is a broken and unbalanced meta, and it has been for a very long time, but that isn't a fundamental and eternal feature of the tier...
For me it is, Balanced is boring, Broken is beautiful.
 
For me it is, Balanced is boring, Broken is beautiful.
It's not beautiful in the slightest when the meta 100% revolves around said broken stuff. Even in a metagame where the goal is to ban the least amount of stuff possible you need bans in order to make it a healthy meta. Do you like having fun with pokemon like meta alakazam or deoxys attack or mega mewtwo y or literally any glass cannon pokemon only to have it be destroyed by ate pokemon? Yeah me neither. Also at the very least aerilate needs to be looked at it is actually disgusting. Aerilate is similar to imposter in the sense that it beats so much stuff it's actually insane except for the fact that it has literally no counterplay since stuff like earth plate judgment mray is a thing. Like I don't tihnk I need to go too in depth on this because I think we all know how just absolutely disgusting aerilate in tandem with mega ray is.
 
I havent posted much about sleep in this thread, but I really think implementing a sleep clause should be the next step taken in improving the metagame. Sleep is the ultimate free turn generator. It puts your opponent to sleep for 1-3 turns, completely unable to do anything while you're free to do whatever you please. Sleep is the reason almost anything with the capability to run safety goggles viably can. When adding a pokemon to your team, you have seven options:
a) Run Safety Goggles and be immune to Prankster Spore, but still be weak to Dark Void. This comes at the expense of your item slot as well.

b) Run a Toxic or Flame Orb on your pokemon and be immune to sleep (given that the orb has already activated). This is typically done in combination with magic guard or Poison Heal. Also comes at the expense of a potentially useful item slot if used with magic guard.

c) Run Magic Bounce as your ability, severely limiting your pokemon's offensive potential. You still lose to sleep moves from pokemon with Mold Breaker, Turboblaze, or Teravolt however.

d) Use Sleep Talk in one of your move slots, giving you a 1/3 chance to select the right move every turn while asleep and getting rid of one potentially useful move slot.

e) Use Substitute in one of your move slots, allowing you to deflect sleep given that you get the Substitute up before the opposing sleep user puts you to sleep.

f) Use Insomnia and be totally immune to sleep barring entrainment sleep users (which really arent much of a thing). This is an issue however because insomnia is incredibly useless compared to many other abilities you could be running.

g) Accept that your pokemon will lose to sleep.
All of the ways of dealing with sleep put you at some sort of disadvantage as I've outlined here, and most have specific sleep users that can beat them. You are forced to run suboptimal sets and go out of your way to handle sleep on every single pokemon on your team or accept that you will lose to it with that pokemon. If your wallbreaker isnt sleep proofed and your opponents wall just happens to be running a sleep move (not at all uncommon), the opponent is given time to recover, leech seed you, knock off your item, set rocks, do whatever they want. I really don't see how anyone could consider this healthy for the metagame; sleep clause is desperately needed and it should be implemented immediately imo. I dont see why something deemed uncompetetive in nearly every other metagame on smogon should be legal here even with the seperate banning philosophy.
 
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Hello there, people of Smogon and fellow Balanced Hackmons players. I am probably not very known on this site, since I usually just lurk around and absorb all of the knowledge I can about each metagame, whether it be an official metagame or an OM. After being by tutored by some people I can now truly call my friends, Adrian Marin, Apateonas, Trambo Trell, Ransei, and a few more, I think I have a decent enough grasp on the current Balanced Hackmons metagame to be able to make this post. Although I do see a couple minor changes that could make the metagame more balanced/fun to play, there is one Pokemon in the current meta that I believe is unbalanced, over-centralizing, and down right unhealthy for the tier to be referred to as "Balanced" Hackmons.


That's right, I am talking the ascendant Mega Rayquaza. Now I know, just by the mention of this Pokemon needing a suspect test will direct some of your guys' attention away from this post, but bear with me, I will try to make this post worthwhile.

Now, obviously you need some sort of reasoning behind wanting for a suspect for a Pokemon, and I have compiled 3 main topics that will each discuss a problem I see with Mega Rayquaza, and each main topic will have an in-depth explanation behind it. Without further ado, here is why I believe Mega Rayquaza should be suspected in Balanced Hackmons.

The first topic I will be covering that relates to Mega Rayquaza in Balanced Hackmons is its offensive versatility. When you are looking for a Pokemon to be on your team, you generally are going to want one that fits your playstyle, and complements your current core. Mega Rayquaza is one of the easiest Pokemon to do this with, due to its colossal offensive stats, and decent typing. The first set I would like to cover is arguably its best set, but by far its hardest hitting set. This is the Choice Specs Aerilate set, with the moves usually consisting of Boomburst, Draco Meteor, Coverage move that fits your team's needs, and either another coverage move or Trick. To some people this set may not seem that threatening, whether it be because you get locked into one move, or perhaps it is because it seems hard to imposter-proof. Well, when it comes to imposter-proofing your team for this set, it's actually quite easy. Your main switch in is going to be the steel type on your team, whether it be Registeel or Aegislash, and you can give them abilities that correspond to the coverage moves you gave Mega Rayquaza. For example, if you give Ray Searing Shot as your coverage move, Flash Fire would be the go-to ability for your switch in. As for a ground move, Levitate. That, in my eyes, is the only real downside to using this set on your team. This set should be used to break common switch ins to Mega Ray, such as a steel type or Chansey, and allow for other Pokemon that are usually hindered by those Pokemon to set up and sweep the opponent's team, or simply clean up the remains. If you think I am overestimating the power of this set, I will leave some calcs below.

Boomburst:

252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 291-343 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 291-343 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 153-181 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 348-411 (84.8 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 361-426 (71.7 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Draco Meteor:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 339-399 (86 - 101.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 516-608 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 348-411 (95.8 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Coverage Moves:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Searing Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 226-266 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Searing Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 226-266 (69.7 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 204-240 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


The next set I would like to cover is the Gale Wings Tail Glow set, first introduced to me late last year if I remember correctly. Although this set has many different moves and items you can run on it, I will be primarily talking about the two I most commonly see. The first one is the set utilizing Focus Sash. After a lot of testing with this set, I have found the best moves to use with Focus Sash would be Tail Glow, Oblivion Wing, and two coverage moves. This set on it's own can 6-0 stall, which can be said for a lot of Pokemon, but none do it with quite this much ease. All you have to do is find an opportune time, which isn't that hard considering that Mega Ray has pretty good bulk (105 / 100 / 100). The coverage moves can consist of whatever you team may need, such as Ice Beam, Earth Power, Searing Shot, Magma Storm, Whirlpool, etc. I've also used a pretty good set utilizing Substitute, Tail Glow, Oblivion Wing, and a filler. This set definitely has to be played a lot more carefully, and making sure that you set up the substitutes at optimal times so Oblivion Wing can still get you back to full health. The Substitute version also works really well as a mono attacker with Spore in the filler slot, making sure that your opponent's check, perhaps an Unaware user, can't do any damage to you. The other Tail Glow set would use the Life Orb item, to optimize damage output, and allowing for much faster victories. This set you usually seen on more offensive teams, and is great for wearing down your opponent's bulkier walls to the point where another teammate can clean up what is left. The Life Orb set has a couple different options for moves, but the skeletal moveset is going to look like Tail Glow, Oblivion Wing, Coverage Move, Filler for whatever you need.

The third and final Mega Rayquaza set I will be talking about in this section is the Fakespeed Aerilate set. Although this set is usually sub-par compared to other options Mega Ray has, I find that it almost always does the job I need it to do. This set is quite simple, usually running Fake Out, Extreme Speed, Boomburst, Filler (Magma Storm, King's Shield, etc.) There isn't much to say about the set other than it works fantastic as a cleaner, still hits very hard, and can use whatever coverage your team will need. If you want a good example of the set doing its job, check out this replay of an OMPL match.


The second topic I'd like like to touch on is Mega Rayquaza's offenses. Although this somewhat ties into the last topic, I think it is different enough to warrant it's own paragraph (or two). When actually looking at Mega Ray's offenses, they are incomparable. 180 / 180 / 115 is unmatched by any Pokemon, and even though we're not going only off of base stats, I thought this deserved a mention. Now we take in to consideration the abilities and moves that Rayquaza can use to boost this power higher. Aerilate, Gale Wings, Contrary, Mold Breaker, etc. These few abilities are what keeps Rayquaza uncounterable. Yes, you can say Mega Mewtwo Y has semi-similar stats, and that it's speed is even higher, and that it should be suspected. But the problem is, Mega Ray has the best amount of sheer power between the two offensive stats out of any Pokemon. This means that it has the greatest potential to run any set it desires, whether it be special, physical, or mixed. No team is ever fully prepared for Mega Rayquaza, and no team can truly ever be fully prepared. The risk-vs-reward factor is extremely in Rayquaza's favor. Its biggest downside is that your opponent can turn into it with Chansey, and this can easily be avoided by making sure your team is imposter-proof. I may not be able to find the correct words to explain what I am trying to explain here, but what I am trying to get across is basically that Mega Ray's offenses + good typing + good abilities + great access to moves= A not very balanced Pokemon.


And last but certainly not least, I will talk about arguments against Mega Ray being suspected. Since there are quite a bit, I will probably miss a few and I apologize in advance. Down below is the list of arguments.

  • Stall will run rampant - Well, to be honest, it kind of already does. Mega Ray just helps defeat stall a bit easier. When talking about ways to beat stall after Mega Ray is gone, I think about the options you have for a team. The most important part will probably be lures, which help even if you aren't trying to defeat stall. In my eyes, you now have a slot opened up on your team because you don't have to worry about Ray. This slot can be filled with whatever you like, and should and probably will help you defeat whatever it is you are trying to defeat.
  • You can balance it by banning other abilities/moves - In my eyes, no, you cannot balance out Mega Rayquaza, unless you decide to ban half of the usable offensive abilities in the tier. If you ban -ate, you are taking away other Pokemon's many niches, just at an attempt to balance out one Pokemon. If you take away Gale Wings, you are still leaving Mega Ray with many other options as far as sets go, and if you were to put in a sleep clause, Mega Ray still either puts the opponent's counter to sleep, or it puts the sleep fodder to sleep which wastes a turn for the opponent which can be used to set up. The more efficient route would be getting rid of Ray altogether.
  • There are more important issues to deal with in the current meta - Is there really? Cause I don't see it. Mega Rayquaza is the most used Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons, and it steadily does exactly what it is meant to do. No Pokemon packs a punch like MRay does, and no Pokemon can single handily 6-0 the opposing team like Mega Rayquaza. The thing is far from the balanced meta most of us want.
  • It has many checks - So does every single Pokemon in existence. I'd compare it to a different OM, but since I don't play any other main ones I am going to compare it to OU. In OU, Hoopa-U was a defining force in the metagame, breaking whatever it needed to break, 6-0ing stall, and having great coverage. Mega Ray is somewhat of a direct comparison. The main difference was Hoopa-U's piss poor speed, which allowed it to be checked by a lot of other Pokemon. Mega Rayquaza doesn't exactly have that problem. -Ate and faster mons (Not all that common) are the main checks to Mega Rayquaza. Some -ates can be handled by Ray itself by a combination of King's Shield+Extreme Speed. Faster mons usually lack the bulky necessary to take a hit from an invested Rayquaza, making them almost useless at their job.
In conclusion, Mega Rayquaza is an unhealthy Pokemon for the Balanced Hackmons metagame. It's constant ability to pull off almost any set it wants defeats the purpose of running switch ins and checks to it. It's base power is enough to turn some heads, and when adding in other factors like abilities, Mega Ray is the hardest hitting Pokemon in the meta, invalidating almost all switch ins. And finally, despite many counter arguments against a suspect of Mega Ray, I fail to see one that truly convinces me that it should not be suspected. I thank you for reading this long ass speech, and hopefully I was able to at least let you see a glimpse of what I see. And if not, then I guess we can agree to disagree.

I did it! And the official word count ends at: 1,897!
 
... First, quickly addressing a the "BH should not be competitive": NO. Something that is uncompetitive does not allow for skill rating, and thus does not require a ladder. Being unbalanced isnt fun to me at all, as sweeping through your opponents team is only fun half the time, while you can enjoy a loss in a balanced metagame due to the involved skill.

As to my upper neighbour, I would first like to say that I appreciate the time spent and find the issues risen interesting, but I do disagree.
My main concern is about non aerilate sets: GW MegaRay is really far from 6-0ing stall, being easily walled by flash fire walls/shedinja/... and whirlwinded out, when not simply impostered. It suffers from severe 4MSS, and is also easily removed by an unsuspected prankster destiny bond. M-Ray is far from the mighty stallslayer: would stall be that rampant (which honestly isnt that true, although its common) if the most common mon of the meta could single-handedly destroy it?
Regarding the specs set, while it is definitely great, its massive drawback is the use of the -ate slot, that prevents you from using fakespeed, something that is quite annoying. Its a huge drawback, huge reward set.
Additionally, I find Diancie to be almost as good as Ray as an ater, and the fact that it has fewer sets (only two while 3-4 for ray) and lower power is partly balanced by its "anti meta" typing letting it revenge kill dragon more efficiently, OHKOing Giratina, imposter M-Ray... I think that rayquaza would be bearable without aerilate, while -ate would still be unbalanced without rayquaza. Banning Ray wouldnt fix the issue.
Finally, the comparison to hoopa does not stand: HoopaU had very little switchin, and they varied from one set to another, while ray has some reliable scouting pivots like FF Aegi or Chansey. Hoopa forced most teams to run pursuit, while its -aters, not ray, that force the presence of chansey, aegislash...

On an other note, you are not adressing the issue of the prankster spore set. I have found it to be almost as good as the GW set, especially with Knock Off support.
 
Two things against a Ray suspect at this time.

1) Mega-Ray was suspected as part of the GKR suspect, which was the one prior to the Protean suspect. And it passed through unbanned. So, arguements against it really need to demonstrate why the removal of the Primals and Protean has left Ray in a more broken state than it was before its last suspect.

2) Aerilate, Mega-Ray's flagship ability, is up for suspect along with other -ate abilities, almost assuredly as the next suspect. It's possible without the mixed -ate set that Mega-Ray will be much more bearable. Especially considering Ray's non-ate STABs are considerably less powerful. Specially, Oblivion Wing gives lots of sustain, but it has close to half the effective base power of -ate Boomburst, once you factor STAB and -ate's extra damage boost, special Ray is significantly lower on damage. Aeroblast is stronger but... kinda underwhelming outside of crit sets. Physically, loss of built-in priority and flinch plus its best moves, Brave Bird and Dragon Ascent, are self-harmful without specific abilities. Sure, more damage, but a lot less useful otherwise.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Two things against a Ray suspect at this time.

1) Mega-Ray was suspected as part of the GKR suspect, which was the one prior to the Protean suspect. And it passed through unbanned. So, arguements against it really need to demonstrate why the removal of the Primals and Protean has left Ray in a more broken state than it was before its last suspect.
Just wanted to point out that many players who voted no ban on mray during the GKR suspect voted that way because they believed that it wasnt broken without aerilate, and were under the assumption that an ate suspect would closely follow the gkr one (which obviously didnt happen), and would likely have voted ban if they knew this. I do agree that ate should be suspected first however, as without Protean and Aerilate I don't think mray is anywhere near as unpredictable or powerful (as its probably TG GW or Prank Spore) but still worth taking a look at. If ate isnt banned, then ofc thats another story (and honestly in this case I would support a mray ban).
 
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this, but I am of the opinion that there ought to be some way to control sleep inducing moves. I don't necessarily agree with the idea of a sleep clause, especially since you don't really have room for sleep fodder on a bh team. I propose that spore and dark void, the 100% and 85% accurate sleep inducing move, should be suspected. You really only have four viable ways to prevent a pokemon from being spored: magic bounce, substitute, safety goggles or status orbs. Mold breaker cancels out magic bounce and knock off removes safety goggles, while safety goggles won't even protect a pokemon from dark void. Status and substitutes does seem to be the best ways to prevent your pokemon being put to sleep, but even with poison heal, it can be easily worn down, and then you are defenseless and will probably have to have at least one other pokemon put to sleep. The concept of sleep is also very haxish since you are completely at the mercy of the rng when it comes to how long it takes you to awaken from sleep. I do admit that removing spore would put an even greater reliance on the rng, since all other sleep-inducing moves have a lower accuracy, but I believe that 65% or less is an acceptable-enough reliance on rng mechanics to balance out the power of sleep. Sleep powder does have an accuracy of 75%, but since it can also be blocked by safety goggles, it loses a lot of potency. This would force sleepers to wrangle with the RNG or carry know guard or wide lens to increase the accuracy of their sleep moves to 82% while also not completely negating the use of safety goggles since sleep powder does have the highest accuracy of the sleep-inducing moves that would still be available.
 
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I apologize if anyone disagrees with my opinion, but that is what it is: an opinion... with evidence
I think that the main problem with the metagame at the moment is FakeSpeed. It requires next to no skill to use, and very annoying to deal with.
Fake out means that you can't survive the following extremespeeds, and making you flinch in the process so you can't do anything about it. you are essentially praying to the RNG to make them miss. Abilities that give you priority, and priority moves, are really your only bet to defeating these beast, but with priority comes a cost. Most priority moves don't do much damage at all. First is feint, the only other move that does damage with +2 priority, and it only has 30 power, compared to extremespeed's 80, and only works if they are using protect. Yeah, nearly useless. next are those with +1 priority, with some sort of ability to give it the extra priority like gale wings. The only decent one is sucker punch, which is affected by neither Gale wings or Prankster, making one of the only counters prankster.
Prankster paired with Paralyzing or Confusing moves can give a slight chance, but only slight, as they still have a chance to hit, and they can always be carrying a lum berry or similar.
Another thing are steel, ghost and rock types, the only three types that resist or are immune to normal type moves. However this is assuming they aren't using an -ate ability. -ate abilities being another problem at the moment make it so you can't tell what type their extremespeed is going to be. this leaves one type, the steel type, and any pokemon with fakespeed has two more moveslots available, so bye-bye resistances.
This makes FakeSpeed require next to no effort to make and use, nearly metagame defining (emphasis on nearly, don't quote me plz), and innapropriate to keep in this metagame.
Also don't judge if this is not very well set out, i'm well aware that it is an eyesore, but im both new here and tired so just buy some bricks and build a bridge.
 
The thing is fakespeed is only problematic because of -ates imo. Without an -ate they're painfully weak moves with terrible coverage. Even if we were to just ban fakespeed, -ate abusers would just start running specs boomburst sets. Modest specs ray can even 2hko fucking chansey and spdef registeel with it's boomburst. It's literally insane tbh
 
I apologize if anyone disagrees with my opinion, but that is what it is: an opinion... with evidence
I think that the main problem with the metagame at the moment is FakeSpeed. It requires next to no skill to use, and very annoying to deal with.
Fake out means that you can't survive the following extremespeeds, and making you flinch in the process so you can't do anything about it. you are essentially praying to the RNG to make them miss. Abilities that give you priority, and priority moves, are really your only bet to defeating these beast, but with priority comes a cost. Most priority moves don't do much damage at all. First is feint, the only other move that does damage with +2 priority, and it only has 30 power, compared to extremespeed's 80, and only works if they are using protect. Yeah, nearly useless. next are those with +1 priority, with some sort of ability to give it the extra priority like gale wings. The only decent one is sucker punch, which is affected by neither Gale wings or Prankster, making one of the only counters prankster.
Prankster paired with Paralyzing or Confusing moves can give a slight chance, but only slight, as they still have a chance to hit, and they can always be carrying a lum berry or similar.
Another thing are steel, ghost and rock types, the only three types that resist or are immune to normal type moves. However this is assuming they aren't using an -ate ability. -ate abilities being another problem at the moment make it so you can't tell what type their extremespeed is going to be. this leaves one type, the steel type, and any pokemon with fakespeed has two more moveslots available, so bye-bye resistances.
This makes FakeSpeed require next to no effort to make and use, nearly metagame defining (emphasis on nearly, don't quote me plz), and innapropriate to keep in this metagame.
Also don't judge if this is not very well set out, i'm well aware that it is an eyesore, but im both new here and tired so just buy some bricks and build a bridge.



There are many checks and counters to -ate abusers like: Soundproof Mega Slowbro, Soundproof Dialga, Fur Coat Chansey,Assault Vest Registeel, Aegislash, Soundproof Mega Tyranitar, Levitate Porbopass and even Sturdy Shedinja...just use your imagination. I don't think that's a viable reason to ban Fake+Espeed.

Using your point of view
I think that the main problem with the metagame at the moment is FakeSpeed. It requires next to no skill to use
Sturdy Shedinja and, even worse, Imposter Blissey/Chansey should be banned too, because it does not require any skill to use a pokémon that copy others lol. And they should not be banned because are counters for them as well. Just be creative and nothing is unbeatable.
 
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There are many checks and counters to -ate abusers like: Soundproof Mega Slowbro, Soundproof Dialga, Fur Coat Chansey,Assault Vest Registeel, Aegislash, Soundproof Mega Tyranitar, Levitate Porbopass and even Sturdy Shedinja...just use your imagination. I don't think that's a viable reason to ban Fake+Espeed.
Half of these mons get screwed over by the appropriate fire, fighting, or ground type coverage move. Mega slowbro and dialga get murdered by techno blast lures. Sheddy dies to infestation or magma storm.

Also lol probopass.

Using your point of view

Sturdy Shedinja and, even worse, Imposter Blissey/Chansey should be banned too, because it does not require any skill to use a pokémon that copy others lol. And they should not be banned because are counters for them as well. Just be creative and nothing is unbeatable.
I think you really don't understand just how cancer -ates are. It's a literal bullshit "click fake out then espeed and anything but a specialized counter dies". Obviously checks exist, but you need multiple ones on most teams and when something is that hard to keep in check I would hope people find it at least a little concerning.
 
Half of these mons get screwed over by the appropriate fire, fighting, or ground type coverage move. Mega slowbro and dialga get murdered by techno blast lures. Sheddy dies to infestation or magma storm.

Also lol probopass.
You really don't understand how to deal with -ates don't you? Counters fear fire attacks? lol Flash Fire Aegislash? for example. And by using one of that pokémon, they are never OHKO by magma storms or searing shots. Dialga is not murdered to techno blast. And you need to know how to use a counter. For example, you're facing -ate ray, so you switch into Shedinja. Then the oponent will use Magma Storm, and what? You just use baton pass to your -ate diancie, and Fake out LOL. It depends on your skill! This is just an example, there are more. Like switching to Flash fire/Levitate pokémon when coverage moves...

I think you really don't understand just how cancer -ates are. It's a literal bullshit "click fake out then espeed and anything but a specialized counter dies". Obviously checks exist, but you need multiple ones on most teams and when something is that hard to keep in check I would hope people find it at least a little concerning.
That kind of unsupported point of view just gets me pissed off! Your comment has no supporting arguments and no valid justification:"It's a literal bullshit "click fake out then espeed and anything but a specialized counter dies" LOL. The only one that is not understanding is you: obviously -ates are a threat and it's up to you and your team to have at least 1-2 checks for them. -Ates are a threat, as well as Endeavor Shedinja, as well as Gale Wings Mega Ray, as well as Swords Dance Mega Diancie, as well as Shift Gear Primal Groudon as well as Poison Heal Kyogre and Tyranitar as well as THE ENTIRE META!
This is Balanced Hackmons, not Pussy Hackmons ok? It's up to you and your skill to get adapted and to build a team to cover the maxium of threats.
 
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