Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans

[Pikachuun]

Hi MAMP i agree with all you said, and i think we should suspect test Shit Gear Primal Groudon as well since it's so broken imo because:

Hi I'm here to break down this argument with a long post. Note that I haven't laddered competitively in months, but I have played the ladder on occasion casually when I'm bored so here we go

-it's immune to thunder wave, burns and water attacks

First I'd like to ask a very simple question: Who uses thunder wave when glare is superior in every way besides fulfilling some sort of niche? While being immune to burns is an issue, being immune to water attacks actually isn't as much of an issue as you may think. Earth Power bops it, for instance, and while it's deceptively bulky, it's still not going to be taking special attacks that well (Aerilate MRay Boomburst anyone?)

-has incredibly high stats boosted by shift gear, boosting its attack to insanely levels and outspeeds almost anything after 1 single shif gear

So do other mons like Mega-ttar (PH also has that benefit of psuedo-status immunity too!) and MMX (which can run an item), but nobody complains about those. I get that PDon does have the next point going for it, but come on.

-has access to the devastating move V-Create and even Sacred Fire, that boosted by the sun and used with its power nearly OHKO's half of the meta and 2 OHKO's the other half even at +0

While I do admit you have somewhat of a point there because Desolate Land V-create hits stupidly hard, Flash Fire and Primordial Sea say hi nonetheless. Sturdinja can also take V-creates for years and stall out Sacred Fire with Lumcycle (this ofc requires team support to keep hazards off and for PDon to not have Magma Storm, but this means it either loses access to Ground STAB or loses access to healing/some other 4th move on a shift gear set).

-has access to the defenseless move Thousand Arrows that hits flying types, through levitate, has no contact and has high power after a single shift gear

Hi, I'm imposter chansey. Prepare to get swept if you run Arrows because you don't have anything that can really take it on if you set up while I can freely.
In all seriousness, Arrows is actually weaker than you think it is.
+1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 309-364 (88 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Sure adamant can OHKO an MRay at +1, but it's a roll that isn't in your favor. You should really be clicking V-Create against it anyway but that's besides the point. You're really only hitting Flash Fires with it, but at that point shouldn't you just be running Precipice to hit them harder? This doesn't really stop people from running it more often than EQ/Precipice, though...
And if you think I'm joking about the Imposter Chansey bit...
+1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Thousand Arrows vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon (250 base HP): 276-326 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (A safe switchin to a +1 PDon barring a crit!)
+1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon (250 base HP): 366-432 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Not anymore it isn't!)
This really does make a big difference. If you're smart, you won't set up until Chansey's dead, but that results in you getting walled by Gira. And I mean any gira, as shown below.

-forces us to use a Fur Coat Giratina or Mega Latias to wall it, that's just a wasted teamslot because its a mon just for groudon.

Now, if this were the pre-primal ban meta, I'd agree, but without +1...
252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 8 HP / 252+ Def Giratina in Harsh Sunshine: 196-231 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
V-create in sun is your strongest move vs gira, and gira tanks it. If you set up, it can tank one and phase you out or topsy you. This is especially true for Prankster Tina.
Something else I'd like to add is that Fur Coat Tina is actually a good mon that can accomplish a variety of roles besides just dealing with PDon. Hell if you want support you just run Tina in general if you can fit it in. As for those people who actually run Latias-Mega, need I remind you of its impressive special bulk and power with Soul Dew? +1 in both offense and defense is not something to mess around with.

-recovers 2/3 HP in sun with synthesis

are you discounting our lord and savior known as moonlight This requires you to take a turn to heal. Your opponent can do a lot of things in response to that (Prankster Topsy on the healing turn, heal up themselves so that they can take your next attack and do something else, the list goes on) Taunt will shut it down, of course. Plus, Synthesis/Moonlight has half as much PP compared to the other recovery moves

There's also the issue of Shift Gear PDon being a very complex ban (Shift Gear + Red Orb + Groudon) but if Red Orb's what's being banned, I'm gonna still have to disagree as Red Orb is manageable. I mean, I fought teams with SG PDon on them with a team of gimmicks and I still won, so that means something right?

The last thing I'd like to address actually made me chuckle a bit.

-nearly 80% of people depend on don to win.

Sure thing, buddy. it only goes lower as you go down the ladder

 

[HailFall]

...can something please be done about sleep clause? many, MANY people in this thread have expressed that they would like a sleep clause to be implemented but nothing has been done. its an incredibly centralizing aspect of the meta to the point where pretty much everything has to be sleep proof. the lack of a sleep clause only detracts from the metagame. not having sleep clause in bh makes me want to play a different metagame. it makes the game less enjoyable for the majority. sleep clause is a quick fix to make the meta better and i see no reason for bh not to have one.

 

[Funbot28]

Yes I totally agree with the sleep clause as I have been trying to express this for the longest time already. People say run Safety Google and Magic Bounce, but with the new prevalence of Mold Breaker Dark Void, this countermeasures are not valid and it's now stay starting to get rediculous.

 

[SuperSkylake]

I do agree with the need for a sleep clause, I think maybe it should be limit 2 or 3 foes put to sleep instead of 1.

 

[motherlove]

Safety goggles aren't really a reliable answer anymore at all since most Pranksters or Poison heals I've seen who run sleep use Dank Void.
Magic Guard isn't a huge part of the equation since there's like, 1 user (Ho-Oh) and it's not even a fraction of the mon it used to be.

Poison heal is really the only reliable sleep counter. I'd make a team with 6 PH but ability clause and shit...

Anyway sleep has 2 limiting factors, first one as I already mentioned is PH which is one of the best defensive abilities you could possibly run in the meta, while poison heal walls have always been there (with PH giratina being of the best mons in the meta), PH set up has been rising for a bit of time now and acts at least as a semi reliable solution to sleep.

Second limiting factor is Imposter, which is why ppl usually use spore so that they can imposter themselves with goggles, this goes for most -ates and gw rayquaza that run spore.

But yeah, although I've found it manageable on the ladder, I've also found it to be incredibly powerful while using it. Dank Void Gengar for example is imposterproof so worst case scenario Chansey puts it to sleep and still loses 1v1 against it. Meanwhile it can fuck up every wall not named PH Yveltal or smt.

 

[Dragongroudon9]

I have been asking for a sleep clause for a long ass time, and haven't gotten an answer as to why it shouldn't happen. I think motherlove covered everything pretty well, but I'm just here to +1 it. And I agree with MAMP with the whole suspect/banning thing. The council needs to be an even amount of players that play different styles so no decision makes the meta unbalanced without others opinions. I think for SUMO this could be a great step for truly making BH balanced again.

 

[Lcass4919]

Yo, why'd this die? Imo -ate is still broken as all shit, and from what I can tell it seems to be pretty unanimously agreed that a suspect would be a good idea. I think we need to come to some sort of consensus on what exactly we should suspect - all -ate abilities, just Aerilate and Pixilate, or do some kind of hybrid suspect test? Or something else entirely? We've only got a couple of months left of Gen 6 BH, might as well get it into the best state we can before moving on to SM.

Speaking of SM, I think it's worth opening a discussion on how bans and suspects will be handled next gen. Bans and suspects this gen have happened very slowly and inconsistently, due to a variety of factors, but I think we can do a lot better next gen.

The meta will undoubtedly change drastically at the onset of SM, and there's no way of telling what it'll look like with all of the new moves, mechanics, Pokemon, and abilities that'll be introduced, and what has proven broken in XY may not be so in SM. Thus, I think the best course of action will be to initially unban everything except things that are banned for being uncompetitive/luck based, and things which are really really undoubtedly broken. The initial ruleset that I would propose is:

BANS

• Huge Power
• Pure Power
• Shadow Tag
• Arena Trap
• Wonder Guard
• Moody

CLAUSES

• OHKO Clause
• Evasion Clause
• Endless Battle Clause (ofc)

The problem here is that this would result in an extremely unbalanced metagame full of broken threats, and if they were all suspected individually, it could take months to reach a stable metagame, and that's being optimistic. To remedy this, we should take an approach to tiering similar to that which kokoloko implemented in beta XY UU earlier this gen -- here's a link explaining how it worked: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/former-uu-tiering-system-voting-records.3520708/#post-5323504

Basically, how the system works is this: a council is appointed, that council votes to quickban anything that is even potentially broken (with the mentality that it's better to ban something that isn't broken than to leave something broken in the tier). Once the metagame has reached a somewhat balanced state (which shouldn't take longer than about a month maybe), the things that were banned can be retested individually with normal suspect tests. This system lets us get the meta to a reasonably balanced state as quickly as possible, which is particularly important because OMGS will start only a couple of months after SM comes out.

tbh, i think parental bond should be added onto the initial banlist. its a pretty rediculous ability. outshineing a LOT of abilities specially, physically, and even defensively to an extent. though ability clause might help with it, its still too much i think.

 

[thesecondbest]

Completely agree with sleep clause... brought it up earlier in this thread. So dumb how so many mons are forced to carry safety goggles, and then your team is weak to dark void. Really stupid. So then you run poison heal, but then you get donked by ates for not having flash fire. So it makes balance pretty trash to the point where you just hope they are spore and goggle a bunch of mons. I remember I used drake's illusion gengar team, and the two walls both carried goggles. So they could never even wall properly. Ban Asap.

 

[motherlove]

So I don't want to be rude or anything but I'd appreciate if we could keep the discussion on Mamp's post a bit before it gets drown in a sea of Sleep posts.

I also wanted to agree with Lcass, I was actually going to say the same thing. Parental bond outclasses almost every other offensive ability bar some ppl who would rather use tinted Lens to some extent. It's even a pain to handle on bulky mons with super fang + seismic toss garbage.

And now after saying smt about Mamp's post I'll ignore what i said and just talk about Don. Don is an iffy call because it's hard to revenge kill offensively without sacking a mon, but actually has a fair bit of answers defensively. I already said above that PH tina is one of the best mon in the meta since it can deal with almost every physical attacker or shift gear user like Pdon, Garchomp, Gyara, Slaking, Ttar or MMX and even kyogre to some extent while also providing the team with an endeavor switchin and being immune to trapping but pretty much any Gira set will handle Pdon depending on moveset. Other mons like Slowbro can perform a variety of role such as soundproof while still handling Pdon and a lot of other physical attackers like Kyurem Black as well as providing the team with a slow pivot. Fur Coat Altaria has actually been quite good in practice, walling a lot of contrary abusers because of its immunity to draco meteor, PrimaSea Grass or Bug type and to some extent flying type are a more niche option that can justify its use on specific teams and there are more options...

Moreover there are a lot of ways to prevent Don from rampaging an entire team. Prankster is still incredibly common, often running at least two of either sleep, topsy turvy, encore or destiny bond. Because it's not running PH it's actually prone to being worn down or revenge killed, this is especially true since it's forced to V-create a lot of the time because mons like gale wing or aerilate rayquaza can OHKO it once at -1 and Poison heal Garchomp can force it out. ScarfChomp can actually switch on any move, outspeed (even after shift gear) and OHKO with precipice blades.

It's also worth noting that by playing carefully you can win a battle without giving Pdon any good set up opportunities.

Now other ppl probably use other things and you might say that everything I've said was either unreliable or just another version of Gira and I could maybe try and see your point, but I personally never felt like I was using something especially for PDon. Yes you need to keep it in mind when building but most of the time a solution to it will also have a ton of use elsewhere. Which is something I have trouble saying concerning Mega Rayquaza.
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
or Shedinja.

 

[Rumors]

Another +1 for Sleep Clause for reasons already mentioned many, many, many times by myself and others.

As for Gen VII, I think the initial ban list should contain everything we presently have banned. At present, nothing we know of S/M is going to balance any of our current bans and, until we find something that does, the ban list should remain unchanged. We can always suspect unban.

Or in other words, I'd rather test to see if its not broken rather than have a repeat of the start of this Gen where Huge and Pure Power ran rampant until we got around to quick banning them because it was thought Fur Coat would prevent them from doing so. Which it didn't.


Also, a more efficient suspect process would be great. One person doing it is fine if they can stay on top of things. But, people have Real Life™ and other obligations, so it prevents them from doing it as quickly as needed all the time.

 

[QT]

Another +1 for Sleep Clause for reasons already mentioned many, many, many times by myself and others.

As for Gen VII, I think the initial ban list should contain everything we presently have banned. At present, nothing we know of S/M is going to balance any of our current bans and, until we find something that does, the ban list should remain unchanged. We can always suspect unban.

Or in other words, I'd rather test to see if its not broken rather than have a repeat of the start of this Gen where Huge and Pure Power ran rampant until we got around to quick banning them because it was thought Fur Coat would prevent them from doing so. Which it didn't.


Also, a more efficient suspect process would be great. One person doing it is fine if they can stay on top of things. But, people have Real Life™ and other obligations, so it prevents them from doing it as quickly as needed all the time.

I'd agree on the suspect test, but I'd hope that only uncompetitive things would start out banned, like OHKO moves and evasion. Potentially I can see the "starting banlist" carrying over because that was our baseline this gen, but if we, say, end up banning -ate, I think we should really suspect test it every gen, like how OU has every noncover legend start out unbanned. IMO the main reason, say, protean got banned is the Mega Mewtwo's. If they aren't relevant for whatever reason, why should that carry over automatically?

 

[ih8ih8sn0w]

I'd agree on the suspect test, but I'd hope that only uncompetitive things would start out banned, like OHKO moves and evasion. Potentially I can see the "starting banlist" carrying over because that was our baseline this gen, but if we, say, end up banning -ate, I think we should really suspect test it every gen, like how OU has every noncover legend start out unbanned. IMO the main reason, say, protean got banned is the Mega Mewtwo's. If they aren't relevant for whatever reason, why should that carry over automatically?

Protean will likely become more powerful than nerfed. With the introduction of Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam, anything running protean will need even less support for dealing with walls like Shedinja and unaware (in the case of other abilities, like contrary or offensive poison heal maybe). Now, I know that we do not know if the moves will be physical, special, high bp, or even the typing (although if it's not steel/ghost respectively that will be surprising, although Sunsteel Strike being fire type would actually be a nightmare even on MMX). I believe that there should be some bans carried over and that there should be suspects soon after release, but I don't think anything can really be discussed until at least demo datamining is complete (if they do screw up again and end up leaking everything themselves again).

 

[MAMP]

Rumors I really feel quite strongly that the initial banlist should be as small as possible, on the grounds that it is completely impossible to tell what the SM metagame will look like from what we know currently. Consider how different the current meta is compared to Gen V BH, or hell, even compared to the early XY meta -- do you remember that there were serious discussions on banning Mold Breaker and PH Regigigas? Bringing up either of those for a ban now would be absurd. We can't predict how SM will change BH, but it will no doubt shift the meta in huge ways -- keeping things like Protean and the Primals banned in SM is basically theorybanning, because it's impossible to know whether or not they'll be broken in the brave new world of SM BH. Even if nothing is introduced that specifically counters the current bans, that doesn't necessarily mean that they will still be broken -- Wobbufett was Uber in DPP and BL in BW, not because BW had introduced some crazy new Wobbufett counter or anything, but because the metagame had just generally shifted in a way that was unfavourable to it. How can we say that something similar won't happen here? Anyway, if PDon or whatever is still broken, it shouldn't take more than a week or so to figure that out and ban it again. There's really no downside to at least testing the banned things again, and not doing so could result in us unfairly banning an element that ultimately could be balanced in the tier.

 

[The Immortal]

I just want to say that starting with the current banlist makes absolutely no sense for various reasons (new moves/abilities/items/Pokemon/mechanics/etc...) and neither BH nor any other OM will be going down that path.

I really feel quite strongly that the initial banlist should be as small as possible

MAMP and I agree on something :^)

 

[Rumors]

I personally feel it's an equal amount of theorymonning to suggest that things shouldn't be banned. We don't know if anything will make them less viable, such as -ate losing it's 30% boost or something, or if they'll be more viable, such as Protean getting a free 30% boost like -ate. Or who knows what else. Theorymonning is what led to Huge/Power Power being unbanned at the start, which was a pretty big mistake.


But, even if we revert to the X/Y initial ban list, we should do like OU did and keep a very close eye on previous bans AND anything outrageously broken and look for quick bans. No suspects, no voting, quick ban it and consider it part of the initial ban list.



And what would be the pre-quick ban list be? Huge/Pure Power, Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Parental Bond, OHKO, Evasion, Moody, Ability-clause, and, if we add it, Sleep clause?

 

[Kit Kasai]

I personally feel it's an equal amount of theorymonning to suggest that things shouldn't be banned. We don't know if anything will make them less viable, such as -ate losing it's 30% boost or something, or if they'll be more viable, such as Protean getting a free 30% boost like -ate. Or who knows what else. Theorymonning is what led to Huge/Power Power being unbanned at the start, which was a pretty big mistake.


But, even if we revert to the X/Y initial ban list, we should do like OU did and keep a very close eye on previous bans AND anything outrageously broken and look for quick bans. No suspects, no voting, quick ban it and consider it part of the initial ban list.



And what would be the pre-quick ban list be? Huge/Pure Power, Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Parental Bond, OHKO, Evasion, Moody, Ability-clause, and, if we add it, Sleep clause?

It's much better to unban and then reban later than to start with a bunch of bans and then attempt to decide which ones are "not op enough" to stay banned...

In the first case, you can actually test out whether or not something is op because it's actually playable, but if you start with everything banned, there's no way to tell whether or not something would be op in the new meta.

 

[MAMP]

Yo E4 Flint whats the plan for tiering next gen? SM are less than a month away and you haven't said anything here about how tiering will work or what the initial banlist will look like (even though i posted about it like a month ago ://)

 

[E4 Flint]

As I've mentioned in chats on showdown a few times now, I will be making an announcement post about a few topics for the new gen just before it will be implemented, so I was planning on talking about it then. I don't see any point in posting now and then later repeating or qualifying myself in this thread, esp when I'd have a better idea of what BH7 will look like then than now. At the moment it looks like a (potentially greatly) limited version of the current banlist with a "quick suspect" (not a unilateral quick ban unless absolutely necessary, read: moody decision) process, which I will run by the OM leaders as well. I am always reading the posts here for ideas though, so keep the good discussion going!

 

[MAMP]

As I've mentioned in chats on showdown a few times now, I will be making an announcement post about a few topics for the new gen just before it will be implemented, so I was planning on talking about it then. I don't see any point in posting now and then later repeating or qualifying myself in this thread, esp when I'd have a better idea of what BH7 will look like then than now. At the moment it looks like a (potentially greatly) limited version of the current banlist with a "quick suspect" (not a unilateral quick ban unless absolutely necessary, read: moody decision) process, which I will run by the OM leaders as well. I am always reading the posts here for ideas though, so keep the good discussion going!

Thanks Flint, sounds good! I just realised that my previous post sounded kinda salty, that wasn't my intention so sry about that :// I get why you didn't want to post about it, but the reason I wanted to know earlier was so that it could be discussed and refined beforehand. The idea of 'quick suspects' sounds cool -- I assume you mean suspect tests with a period of like a few days/week, one after another, which sounds good to me as long as they are actually quick and we don't have to wait months to get stuff like PDon out of the tier if its still as broken as in Gen 6. Will suspects be chosen by you or will there be a council? Or will it be like the LC system where people get reqs and then choose what to vote on?

 

[E4 Flint]

I assume you mean suspect tests with a period of like a few days/week, one after another, which sounds good to me as long as they are actually quick

The idea is to take advantage of the fact that everyone's ranks will be reset for the new gen and that with a reset in the banlist, the tier will be more volatile, so 1) you will not have to make new alts 2)the COIL reqs will take into account more how many games you play and not necessarily how many you win, both of which will make suspect tests alot faster and more accessible. However, I have not finalized this with OM leaders which is why I didn't want to discuss something I can't promise 100%. As for why suspects are taking so long, again, I want suspects to be majorly community driven as mentioned in my OPs, so when there is a consensus, things will move forward quickly. When I've seen that happen, we've generally had quick and painless suspects at least imo.

 

[The Immortal]

Since you mentioned that, E4 Flint, I have something that I've been keeping secret for a couple weeks. I talked to a Smogon admin and got suspect ladders approved for OMs!

 

[SwampySwampert]

I found one that is just completely broken: Normalize Gengar-Mega.

Basically, it's a Mega Gengar with the ability normalize, but runs Mean Look and Entrainment to ensure nothing can ever hit it. Once it gets Normalize on your 'mon, you can't touch the Gengar-M - not even with status moves because those turn Normal as well. Scrappy ability gets replaced with Normalize, and Odor Sleuth and Foresight, besides being something that no one would ever run on something, count as status moves and can't beat the immunity. Spiky Shield and King's Shield don't work because Gengar's not a physical attacker.

The only way I've thought of to beat this strategy is to OHKO Gengar with something that outspeeds it before Normalize can kick in.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

I found one that is just completely broken: Normalize Gengar-Mega.

Basically, it's a Mega Gengar with the ability normalize, but runs Mean Look and Entrainment to ensure nothing can ever hit it. Once it gets Normalize on your 'mon, you can't touch the Gengar-M - not even with status moves because those turn Normal as well. Scrappy ability gets replaced with Normalize, and Odor Sleuth and Foresight, besides being something that no one would ever run on something, count as status moves and can't beat the immunity. Spiky Shield and King's Shield don't work because Gengar's not a physical attacker.

The only way I've thought of to beat this strategy is to OHKO Gengar with something that outspeeds it before Normalize can kick in.

Or just use Roar. Normalize Mega Gengar is not great, because its moves are also Normal-typed. Entrainment doesn't get rid of the ability Mega Gengar has.
...Not to mention something with Judgment can stampede on in and bop the Mega Gengar for huge damage, due to Judgment being unaffected by Normalize.

Can we have an Impostor suspect next gen? These Chanseys have really put the damper on offense this time, and it's really telling when Impostor-proofing is one of the main points of discussion. I feel that it restricts how creative a Kyruem-Black or some other similarly offensive poke can be without just ending up sweeping your own team with its better clone, minus one or two things (at best).

I understand completely if you refuse, but do consider the impact Chansey and Pikachu are having on teambuilding....

 

[Whatwasthatnoise]

I found one that is just completely broken: Normalize Gengar-Mega.

Basically, it's a Mega Gengar with the ability normalize, but runs Mean Look and Entrainment to ensure nothing can ever hit it. Once it gets Normalize on your 'mon, you can't touch the Gengar-M - not even with status moves because those turn Normal as well. Scrappy ability gets replaced with Normalize, and Odor Sleuth and Foresight, besides being something that no one would ever run on something, count as status moves and can't beat the immunity. Spiky Shield and King's Shield don't work because Gengar's not a physical attacker.

The only way I've thought of to beat this strategy is to OHKO Gengar with something that outspeeds it before Normalize can kick in.

Magic Bounce, -Ate fakespeed, having something faster than it, other Ghost types, phazing moves, Odor Sleuth and Foresight are both normal type anyway, Judgment (overrides the Normalise, pretty sure not intended behavious but works anyway), Trick/bad item, Prankster Taunt, Imposter, Scarf, etc.

That's literally off the top of my head.

Or just use Roar. Normalize Mega Gengar is not great, because its moves are also Normal-typed. Entrainment doesn't get rid of the ability Mega Gengar has.
...Not to mention something with Judgment can stampede on in and bop the Mega Gengar for huge damage, due to Judgment being unaffected by Normalize.

Can we have an Impostor suspect next gen? These Chanseys have really put the damper on offense this time, and it's really telling when Impostor-proofing is one of the main points of discussion. I feel that it restricts how creative a Kyruem-Black or some other similarly offensive poke can be without just ending up sweeping your own team with its better clone, minus one or two things (at best).

I understand completely if you refuse, but do consider the impact Chansey and Pikachu are having on teambuilding....

Imposter has been repeatedly stated to be not going anywhere. If you're not going to read the thread at least use the search function.



Also, E4 Flint going to add my voice to a call for Sleep Clause

 

[SwampySwampert]

Or just use Roar. Normalize Mega Gengar is not great, because its moves are also Normal-typed. Entrainment doesn't get rid of the ability Mega Gengar has.
...Not to mention something with Judgment can stampede on in and bop the Mega Gengar for huge damage, due to Judgment being unaffected by Normalize.

Looked up the Judgment and it works against Normalize, but Roar doesn't.

Whatwasthatnoise: Even if you can outspeed Gengar-M with one of those options, it will still get off Entrainment if you don't OHKO it.

Really, it's Judgment, Prankster Taunt, Trick, or simply OHKOing it.