Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans

Whatwasthatnoise said:
Magic Bounce, -Ate fakespeed, having something faster than it, other Ghost types, phazing moves, Odor Sleuth and Foresight are both normal type anyway, Judgment (overrides the Normalise, pretty sure not intended behavious but works anyway)
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I'm pretty sure I tested normalize plate judgment a while back in game and it is correct on PS fwiw...


Either way, most teams can deal with normalize Gengar just from existing. If you are having an issue with it, then you are likely having a hard time against other things and should probably improve your team some more.
 
MAMP said:
jsyk, the only status move affected by type immunities is thunder wave, so you can use status moves on gengar even after entrainment.
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...Huh, I didn't know Will-O-Wisp and Toxic could also bypass those immunities.
But yeah, there's plenty that can defeat a Normalize Gengar.
This replay that I posted over at the Silly Things thread does well at proving how much of a liability Normalize Mega Gengar can really be. (Offensive Adaptability or Magic Bounce Mega Gengar would have torn that Dialga up) It also shows that Roar very much works on a Gengar, something we should have known for a long while now.

Also, good to hear about the Impostor situation. I won't raise another stink about it then. I do feel that we should implement Sleep (and perhaps Freeze) clause here, since someone else mentioned it. Plus, running Safety Goggles on nearly everything is a little boring.
 
We don't need a Freeze Clause. May as well implement a Crit Clause.

+1 for Sleep Clause.

Agreeing with all the initial banlists being listed, can't stand to play BH atm. I hope next gen we resolve things such as -ate, Pdon, Sleep (if it's not initially banned), much quicker than we did this gen.

If -ate in particular remains as centralizing as it is this Gen, I'd like to see it banned. Max SpD Registeel getting 2HKO'd by a resisted hit (Specs BB) isn't something that should happen.
 
Or you know you could just switch to a ghost type before it gets mean look off, or to something with Roar, Parting Shot, Whirlwind, Magic Bounce, etc. There is only one useful Normalize Gengar set imo, and I'm not revealing it cause it's dope.

And Imposter is the last thing that should be suspect in this unbalanced tier. It's the only thing keeping the tier from being broken. Just don't use shit that you can't beat with your own mons, that's how you beat Imposter. If you need an example, let's say you have a Rayquaza with Fake Out, Espeed, Boomburst, Searing Shot. Use a Registeel/Aegislash with Flash Fire and boom you counter it, easy. Just be smart when teambuilding and you should have no problem.
 
SwampySwampert said:
I found one that is just completely broken: Normalize Gengar-Mega

Basically, it's a Mega Gengar with the ability normalize, but runs Mean Look and Entrainment to ensure nothing can ever hit it. Once it gets Normalize on your 'mon, you can't touch the Gengar-M - not even with status moves because those turn Normal as well. Scrappy ability gets replaced with Normalize, and Odor Sleuth and Foresight, besides being something that no one would ever run on something, count as status moves and can't beat the immunity. Spiky Shield and King's Shield don't work because Gengar's not a physical attacker.

The only way I've thought of to beat this strategy is to OHKO Gengar with something that outspeeds it before Normalize can kick in.
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Dragongroudon9 said:
Or you know you could just switch to a ghost type before it gets mean look off, or to something with Roar, Parting Shot, Whirlwind, Magic Bounce, etc. There is only one useful Normalize Gengar set imo, and I'm not revealing it cause it's dope.

And Imposter is the last thing that should be suspect in this unbalanced tier. It's the only thing keeping the tier from being broken. Just don't use shit that you can't beat with your own mons, that's how you beat Imposter. If you need an example, let's say you have a Rayquaza with Fake Out, Espeed, Boomburst, Searing Shot. Use a Registeel/Aegislash with Flash Fire and boom you counter it, easy. Just be smart when teambuilding and you should have no problem.
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Normalize Gengar absolutely destroys ghost types, so that's not an option. If you want to take it on, run Whirlwind on Chansey/Audino, keep up offensive pressure (MMY/-ate/GW/Prankster/etc), run Judgement on something, or slap on a spooky plate imposter.
 
I was referring to the set I see the most on ladder which lacks Judgment to actually hit ghosts type, which is bad, I know. If we refer to the Judgment set, all it takes is a Magic Bouncer with Knock Off to beat it, assuming the opponent doesn't guess it's Magic Bounce. Normalize Gengar is hard to use in the meta anyway with a lot of people knowing how to play against Gengar (Ex: Going into a fat mon that can absorb a Judgment, while also having a way to escape like Parting Shot). Hope this cleared up my thought process a bit.
 
Zephyr Dragon Lord said:
...Huh, I didn't know Will-O-Wisp and Toxic could also bypass those immunities.
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Technically, Wil-o-Wisp hits Fire-types just fine. They're just immune to the burn, so it fails. Hence why Wisp will trigger Flashfire when used by a Fire-type. Likewise, Toxic hits Poison-types just fine, but it just doesn't Poison them. Steel-type, I'm less sure on since they're literally immune to Poison, but I'm going to speculate its the same as with Poision-types since most status moves bypass type-based immunity. Really, Thunderwave is the odd one out. Granted, I've not shot something like Electrify at a Ground type to see if its specifically Thunderwave or specifically Electric vs Ground.


Dragongroudon9 said:
There is only one useful Normalize Gengar set imo, and I'm not revealing it cause it's dope.
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Really, only one? I can think of at least three, but none of them are still ban worthy. Really friggin' annoying though, but not ban worthy.
 
Rumors said:
Technically, Wil-o-Wisp hits Fire-types just fine. They're just immune to the burn, so it fails. Hence why Wisp will trigger Flashfire when used by a Fire-type. Likewise, Toxic hits Poison-types just fine, but it just doesn't Poison them. Steel-type, I'm less sure on since they're literally immune to Poison, but I'm going to speculate its the same as with Poision-types since most status moves bypass type-based immunity. Really, Thunderwave is the odd one out. Granted, I've not shot something like Electrify at a Ground type to see if its specifically Thunderwave or specifically Electric vs Ground.




Really, only one? I can think of at least three, but none of them are still ban worthy. Really friggin' annoying though, but not ban worthy.
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Toxic bypasses immunity, Twave in specific doesn't. Twave on a normalize Delcatty fails to hit Ghosts, while toxic does.

What Three? I knwo the Shell Smash set, the spore set... and no others.
 
Quantum Tesseract said:
Normalize Gengar absolutely destroys ghost types, so that's not an option. If you want to take it on, run Whirlwind on Chansey/Audino, keep up offensive pressure (MMY/-ate/GW/Prankster/etc), run Judgement on something, or slap on a spooky plate imposter.
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I've never actually seen a Normalize Gengar run Judgment, even though it would make a great deal of sense for them to do so.

But yeah, it's far from banworthy.


Maybe there should be a 'We know about this, you're not some god who uncovered new tech nobody else has ever considered, and it's also not banworthy because here's how easy it is to counter' thing in the first post, because Imposter, Sturdinja and Normalise ghosts get bought up a lot. Can anyone else think of anything that gets bought up often?
 
Rumors said:
Technically, Wil-o-Wisp hits Fire-types just fine. They're just immune to the burn, so it fails. Hence why Wisp will trigger Flashfire when used by a Fire-type. Likewise, Toxic hits Poison-types just fine, but it just doesn't Poison them. Steel-type, I'm less sure on since they're literally immune to Poison, but I'm going to speculate its the same as with Poision-types since most status moves bypass type-based immunity. Really, Thunderwave is the odd one out. Granted, I've not shot something like Electrify at a Ground type to see if its specifically Thunderwave or specifically Electric vs Ground.
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I know that Steel types can be poisoned by a Normal Type Toxic (or Twineedle, but that's incredibly bad). I was just entirely unsure about its relations to Ghosts. Only Delcatty has Normalize normally, who.... you never see, to say the least. Also, Electrify still works on Ground types. It's like the other status moves in that regard.
The Freeze clause is simply a relic from Gen 1, where you had infinite Freeze turns, and a 90% accurate Blizzard with a 30% freeze chance... These days, it would just guard from pitifully bad luck. Basically, a nothing that you probably don't need to deal with.

Edit: Wasn't Baton Pass also brought up a good deal? Of course, that has even more counters than the tactics listed above...
 
Zephyr Dragon Lord said:
I know that Steel types can be poisoned by a Normal Type Toxic (or Twineedle, but that's incredibly bad). I was just entirely unsure about its relations to Ghosts. Only Delcatty has Normalize normally, who.... you never see, to say the least. Also, Electrify still works on Ground types. It's like the other status moves in that regard.
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That's actually not true; twinneedle can only poison steels in gen 2, and toxic never could. Steel Types are immune to Poisoning, just like Fire Types are immune to Burn and Electrics to paralysis. We know this isn't based on type, though, because of the aforementioned normalize toxic hitting ghosts but failing on steel types.

Also yes, +1 for sleep clause.
 
Quantum Tesseract said:
What Three? I knwo the Shell Smash set, the spore set... and no others.
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Normalize Curse, Normalize Perish Song, Normalize Baton Pass, and you mentioned the Shell Smash set. So, four actually. Five if there's a separate Judgement set from Shell Smash I'm not aware of. Double either number if you want to count regular Normalize Gengar megavolving into Mega-Gengar as individual sets.
 
Funbot28 said:
Ya it might be too late since SuMo is practically here, E4 Flint can a final verdict be made on Sleep Clause? The more Mold Breaker Dark Void users I face, the more I realize how stupid spamming this strat really is.
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Sure, in fact I have been working on a response, just took me some time to find the right stats.
The short answer is, no at this point in time I don't think Sleep Clause is necessary. Here is my reasoning:
  • Sleep clause will talk about sleep in all its forms. Here are the moves that may induce sleep:
    Dark Void, Grass Whistle, Hypnosis, Lovely Kiss, Relic Song, Sing, Sleep Powder, Spore
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    Out of these, there are basically 3 that I view viable in BH; Spore, the most splashable, DV for better coverage at the cost of accuracy, and Sing, for sound-based sleeping around subs usually in conjunction with Sub. These moves will be what I am considering in BH
  • The potential tools to combat Sleep are as follows:
    • Abilities: Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, Insomnia
    • Moves: Sleep Talk, Magic Coat, Aromatherapy and other clones (on other mons), (potentially) Substitute
    • Items: Safety Goggles (for Spore), use of one-time berries to scout Sleep and prepare
    • For Spore: Grass Type
  • We can eliminate Sing, which I think is manageable, since either you need to limit yourself with No Guard, or rely on its 55% acc. It is also still susceptible to Magic Bounce and difficult to Imposter-proof
  • Spore was the most versatile in the previous gen, and probably a sleep clause should've been implemented in that meta. Since that time, in this next gen, Sleep in general has been nerfed so that it doesn't have its counter reset upon switching, has a type that it is completely immune to and an item that can extend this immunity to any mon. I feel that this is enough to combat Spore. Just as offensive Pokemon have to choose between sleep or better coverage, so too defensive mons have to choose between preventing spore, or having a little extra HP to narrowly live coverage options. I feel that especially with the drawbacks in Spore, this is a fair matchup; just today, I saw a few games where a player with GW MegaRay with TG Spore and Oblivion Wing lost a game he easily should've won had he had Earth Power, despite his opponents not having Goggles or Magic Bounce. On top of this, Poison Heal is extremely popular in BH on balanced, attacking and stall teams alike, while the other tools are still available
  • The main argument for a Sleep Clause therefore comes in Mold Breaker with Dark Void, which has been brought up a few times in this thread. Here are my problems with this argument
    • My main issue is with usage. As I've stated in the OP, and by going with past precedent with the Chatter and Moody decisions, I want our decisions to be driven by both the theoretical and the actual usage in the tier, so I shall argue against both cases, starting with Usage and then Theoretical
      • https://www.scribd.com/document/330214701/Data-on-Mold-Tera-Turbo-DV-in-BH
        It's difficult to find usage stats by ability and moves, so if you guys find any better, feel free to correct me. My strategy has been to use the latest stats for the top 30 pokemon used in BH (at the 1500 level since this should be a situation happening across the ladder, as per September here) and see what percentage of them use Mold Breaker or its clones, and what percentage of them use Dark Void across all their abilities, using TiBot
      • TiBot shows the highest values down to a certain point after which it says "other" or does not go further. If this is the case, and I don't see any of the abilities in the usage, I assume conservatively the last lowest value. So, for wherever it says "less than", I actually did not see that value displayed. For example, "less than 5%" of DV on Kyurem Black means that it was not displayed in the most used moves, and I am assuming at best it is used as much as the last lowest one
      • How to interpret this data: You can see how much a specific pokemon is used in a tier, and both how much of that is one of turbo/tera/mold and how much run DV (on all sets, not just Mold/Tera/Turbo). I have provided some benchmarks in the "interesting comparisons" to illustrate the chances a little better
      • To me, this doesn't seem like a situation where this cannot be counteracted with what tools are already available
      [*]
      • Most offensive Pokemon can shut down walls for at least one turn, giving them opportunity to set up. This is the strongest point for having a Sleep Clause imo
      • However, these mons will have to choose between having extra coverage, utility/self-preservation or sleep with a lot of setup. Classic example:
        • Gengar-Mega @ Mold Breaker with 4 of Shell Smash/KS/DV/Secret Sword/Judgment will have different matchups in and against its favor
      • Mons that are not imposter-proof like the above will further have to prepare for it e.g. have to run Substitute to avoid being counter-swept by Chansey. This will further reduce their coverage when matched up against common status absorbers
      • Mold Breaker DV is still susceptible to Priority, both status and attacks
      • Mold Breaker DV has an 80% success rate to incapacitate an opponent for 1-3 turns, equal probability for each duration, in which it would need time to set up or try and overpower the opponent at +0. I personally do not feel that this is strictly better than going for other status inducing moves (which often can be more reliable in spreading around) that can incapacitate mons that have an element of RNG e.g. paralysis
      [*]
This is my opinion on why Sleep Clause is not necessary at this moment in time. Will it be still on the table in Sun/Moon? Of course, since I know this situation can change just as it did for other previous bans such as Chatter, Moody and more. I just feel that right now the interplay is enough that it is not needed.

It would be a lot easier and faster for me to just implement a Sleep Clause right now instead of me having to look up and format these stats and express my opinion in a clear way on why it's not required. I wanted to clarify this in case there is still the opinion that it's easier for me to just not change anything.

I apologize if this post is a little choppy, I have been working on it for a while, but I decided to post it in advance and edit in other details since I was directly asked for my opinion.
 
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If anyone is still annoyed at the lack of sleep clause, Dark Void is apparently nerfed to 50 accuracy in Sumo so safety goggle will be a legitimate way to counter sleep spam next Gen.
Game Freak read this thread.
 
motherlove said:
If anyone is still annoyed at the lack of sleep clause, Dark Void is apparently nerfed to 50 accuracy in Sumo so safety goggle will be a legitimate way to counter sleep spam next Gen.
Game Freak read this thread.
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It's more like they read into doubles... Oh my gosh, doubles is going to be very appealing now.
BH Doubles might actually be not complete spam next gen, which is a really good thing.

...But yeah, Lovely Kiss exists, which means there's still going to be issues in Singles.
 
E4 Flint said:
Also seems like Dark Void will be hard coded to Darkrai next gen from what is rumored
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>Rumored
Enjoy the typo!
XWsQuWD.jpg

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On single format - yes, that doesn't really matter. The only diffrence is just in 5 accuracy and we swap name of new usually used move... thats it...
If we think also about Spore... well... That one is actually blocked by SOMETHING... not only Insomnia/Vital Spirit/Magic Bounce (that one countered by Mold Breaker)/correctly predicted Magic Coat/Poison Heal and activated by Toxic or Flame Orb Guts/Lum Berry (but here just one time UNLESS you have Harvest or something like that)... but also Sap Sipper (due to grass typing, that one can be ignored by Normalize Spore or Mold Breaker), Overcoat (it's powder move), Grass types (again - powder move), Safety Googles (again AGAIN - powder move)...
But on bright side (and this is something what makes this move worth using sometimes over Dark Void (and in new gen - Lovely Kiss)) accuracy is perfect. There is no way you could miss Spore unless drop in accuracy or Bright Powder on oponent... Or Evasion, but that one will be REALLY rare with banned evasion moves...
Can be used with Prankster and Mold Breaker more easier. Heck, even with Sap Sipper it might be interesting just in case we do take move back because of unexpected Magic Bounce (I used myself Sap Sipper on Swampert-Mega with Spore. And it works out preety well).

On Double format... that actually matter a lot...
Obviosly we mainly talk here about single format, but it's worth mentioning the fact, there was option to play on Double BH when that format was choosen for OM of month... Now you need Specificaly Darkray for this move, and even then there is still accuracy drop... Darkray could run No Guard if this pokemon want, but that means no Prankster if oponent prefer to make sure this move actually land. Similar to Mold Breaker for passing Magic Bounce (funny enouth, that nerf actually puts Darkrays ally into 50/50 chance to dodge bounced Dark Void, because Darkray using No Guard always will took that status back no matter what...).

The point is: Dark Void on BH Doubles might see still some plays, but now you most likely are sticked to one ability what makes this move really effective... If you choose something else, be ready for that sweet misses...

But no matter how shaky accuracy is on sleeping moves, Sleep Clause should be implemented in next gen no matter what... really...
Every competetive metagame (AG is the only expection, but hey - thats format where Evasion is allowed, so...) have Sleep Clause, because it was needed in every metagame. In BH - Especialy with easier distribution in sleeping moves, it should be implemented as well. It doesn't matter how many sets counter sleeping, we always need some of them to be not completly shooted down by status spreader...
 
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Hi guys,

We're on the eve of Balanced Hackmons 7 with the Sun and Moon release! Here is my plan for the suspects as we move into a new generation.

Initial Banlist:

Moves
  • Chatter (Link)
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Parental Bond (Link)
  • Protean (Link)
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody (Link)

Clauses
  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team. (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder (Link)
Unbanned from Gen6
  • Groudon Primal
  • Kyogre Primal
  • Assist Clause
  • Ate Clause
Protean shall be banned from the outset because I believe that Protean's power will scale up with every move that is added. Parental Bond shall be banned from the outset because of the introduction of a new consistent damage dealing move, Nature's Madness, which patches up the only weakness of Parental Bond Seismic Shade by not having any immunities. Nothing has changed mechanic-wise for Chatter and Moody so they shall be carried over as well.

In addition, there will be no suspect decision for a specified "freeze period" since BH7 is implemented. For now, I am thinking somewhere on the scale of 10-14 days. However, you are free to discuss anything about the emerging meta and what seems to be overpowered and see if we have to burst any bubbles so to speak. After this period, if there are any pressing needs, we shall go forward with "fast suspects" which will either leverage the new BH suspect ladder or if need be, an even faster method of simply not requiring new alts, since everyone's rank shall be reset for the next gen.

After this, if there are no more decisions required, I will bring up suspects on previously banned mechanics i.e. Protean and Parental Bond. I have given my opinions for Protean and Parental Bond above, but there are changes after all with a new meta, so a discussion should be held on them, if only for the sake of completion.

As a final note, I want to say thanks for all of you in the BH community for your enthusiastic participation and discussion this gen. I hope to see you in the new one.
~E4 Flint
 
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I just wanted to inquire more on why Chatter was not considered to be brought back. Iirc, Gale Wings was the main proponent that made Chatter truly difficult to deal with as it could be used on defensive threats to hax out turns, and with the Gale Wings nerf it is much harder to pull off as consistently. Ik the mechanic of Chatter giving out confusions while being a move is still the same, but we also still have Dynamic Punch and Swagger that relatively do the same things. Maybe I am wrong, but can someone explain it to me?
 
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