Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
is a Pre-Contributor
I just wanted to inquire more on why Chatter was not considered to be brought back. Iirc, Gale Wings was the main proponent that made Chatter truly difficult to deal with as it could be used on defensive threats to hax out turns, and with the Gale Wings nerf it is much harder to pull off as consistently. Ik the mechanic of Chatter giving out confusions while being a move is still the same, but we also still have Dynamic Punch and Swagger that relatively do the same things. Maybe I am wrong, but can someone explain it to me?
Honestly, Chatter is relatively splashable due to its 100% accuracy, ability to bypass substitutes, good PP, okay BP (65 isn't bad tbh, just a bit less than Espeed), Taunt immunity, and no immunities outside of Soundproof (which Mold Breaker can ignore anyway). Combine all of these factors with the confusionhax letting pretty much any offensive mon hax their way past their counters, Aerilate MRay being probably the best upcoming example in gen 7 because of STAB and the like, and you got a move that's honestly dumb in the meta.
As for the other moves you mentioned, Dynamic Punch requires No Guard to be run otherwise you risk missing half the time, not to mention Tina and Aegis which are common things are immune to it, and Swagger can just be bounced back or taunted before it happens and also rarely can miss.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
Honestly, Chatter is relatively splashable due to its 100% accuracy, ability to bypass substitutes, good PP, okay BP (65 isn't bad tbh, just a bit less than Espeed), Taunt immunity, and no immunities outside of Soundproof (which Mold Breaker can ignore anyway). Combine all of these factors with the confusionhax letting pretty much any offensive mon hax their way past their counters, Aerilate MRay being probably the best upcoming example in gen 7 because of STAB and the like, and you got a move that's honestly dumb in the meta.
As for the other moves you mentioned, Dynamic Punch requires No Guard to be run otherwise you risk missing half the time, not to mention Tina and Aegis which are common things are immune to it, and Swagger can just be bounced back or taunted before it happens and also rarely can miss.
I am E4 Flint and I approve this message.
Also you don't want to be on the wrong side of PH Kyoge with QD Filler Chatter Scald
 
I agree with Funbot28, as Gale Wings is now nerfed to be only pullable when the pokemon using it is at max health. Therefore, Chatter does not seem like an issue.

Along with that, any thoughts on the new ability Water Bubble? It seems quite overpowered, as BEFORE STAB water moves are doubled in power.

Notable Users: Palkia, Kyogre, Slowbro-Mega

+2 (Water Bubble) 252+ SpA Kyogre Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 237-279 (65.1 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Along with being immune to burn (which used to be the most common status in the meta iirc, even though now it got nerfed) and being resistant to fire (not a big deal but still), I think Water Bubble should have discussion or whether or not it should be banned.
 
I am E4 Flint and I approve this message.
Also you don't want to be on the wrong side of PH Kyoge with QD Filler Chatter Scald
Is the right side running Toxic Orb imposter Blissey?

Hi guys,

We're on the eve of Balanced Hackmons 7 with the Sun and Moon release! Here is my plan for the suspects as we move into a new generation.

Initial Banlist:

Moves
  • Chatter (Link)
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Parental Bond (Link)
  • Protean (Link)
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody (Link)
Clauses
  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team. (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder (Link)
Unbanned from Gen6
  • Groudon Primal
  • Kyogre Primal
  • Assist Clause
  • Ate Clause
Protean shall be banned from the outset because I believe that Protean's power will scale up with every move that is added. Parental Bond shall be banned from the outset because of the introduction of a new consistent damage dealing move, Nature's Madness, which patches up the only weakness of Parental Bond Seismic Shade by not having any immunities. Nothing has changed mechanic-wise for Chatter and Moody so they shall be carried over as well.

In addition, there will be no suspect decision for a specified "freeze period" since BH7 is implemented. For now, I am thinking somewhere on the scale of 10-14 days. However, you are free to discuss anything about the emerging meta and what seems to be overpowered and see if we have to burst any bubbles so to speak. After this period, if there are any pressing needs, we shall go forward with "fast suspects" which will either leverage the new BH suspect ladder or if need be, an even faster method of simply not requiring new alts, since everyone's rank shall be reset for the next gen.

After this, if there are no more decisions required, I will bring up suspects on previously banned mechanics i.e. Protean and Parental Bond. I have given my opinions for Protean and Parental Bond above, but there are changes after all with a new meta, so a discussion should be held on them, if only for the sake of completion.

As a final note, I want to say thanks for all of you in the BH community for your enthusiastic participation and discussion this gen. I hope to see you in the new one.
~E4 Flint
I said this on PS!, but I have my thoughts in order now, so here we go. Most of this I agree with, but I think that the Protean ban being carried over isn't a good precedent to set.

First off, unlike Chatter, Moody, and Stag it isn't uncompetative. Obviously Pure and Huge Power aren't either, but it is a consideration.
Secondly, and more importantly, Protean was playable. It took months for it to become a big enough issue (In oras alone- it was fine in XY apparently). It also departs the sort of philosophy that all tiers follow- that you start each generation fresh, like how Blaziken and the Deoxys (Bar attack) were unbanned at the start of XY OU. Protean scaling up isn't really a factor either, because that's true of every ability not directly nerfed, and unless signature Z-moves can be hacked the power hasn't actually increased that much. We also have a few new potential walls - Magearna, Solgalgeo, Celestina and Zygarde complete - not to mention the much greater competition from offensive abilities like Psychic Surge, Disguise, Dazzling, Water Bubble, Stake Out, and Triage, not to mention the already extant competition that existed for pokemon not named Mewtwo. It may turn out to be banworthy again, but I think that letting it start out banned is a mistake.
 
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Agreeing with Quantum Tesseract here: I get what you're saying Flint, that Protean's power scales up with each new move added, and I do think that Protean will be banworthy again in SM, but I think it's a lot more borderline than the other bans. It's worth at least testing imo.

I like the idea of the 'frozen period' but can I request that it be reduced to like, a week? That should be long enough for everyone to get a reasonable idea of the state of the meta, and I don't think anyone wants to deal with the clusterfuck that the early meta will undoubtedly be for too long -- if shit like PDon and Water Bubble and Triage are as broken as they look then it won't take two weeks to figure that out.

On Chatter: yeah it's probably not as broken now as it was in XY but lets be real here, is there anyone that would actually prefer a meta with Chatter in it to one without (chloe don't answer this)? Literally all that Chatter does is introduce more randomness into the metagame and allows Pokemon to hax their way through mons that they have no business beating. Chatter is just a net negative in the tier, I see no reason to unban it.

Will there be a new suspects and bans thread or are we going to continue using this one?
 
More about the new ability Water bubbles.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Audino: 441-520 (107.5 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 229-270 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The ability doubles water type BASE POWER disregarding it being stab or not. so here the steam eruption is 220 base power. With Spec, it OHKO most walls, and 2HKO the most common resists, and as Soul Dew nerfed, Latwins not gonna be better than giratina in checking these. Not to mention if this is with Primal Kyogre.
yeah we actually have a lot of stuff that OHKO a lot of the meta under band/spec, like tinted lens blaziken banded etc, but I do find Water Bubble kinda broken and possibly on the first suspect list if quick ban is not reasonable.

Also, I don't know what will happen if Primals and the assist sets got unbanned. But still partially the reason pdon got banned is the access to V-create 180bp STAB with his 180 base attack, together with STAB neutral-hitting everything t-arrows.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 392-462 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
No new pokemon introduced in gen 7 except Zygarde changes this. The only notable viable thing that is new and actually help checks it is Water Bubble (on water type perhaps, to check desolate land variant as well. Or yeah we can do fur coat giratina/zygarde but it is broken anyway). And if Water Bubble is gone soon i guess Pdon doesn't have reason to stay either. So I can forsee Pdon would still get banned eventually and hope it is quick.
 
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I've been playing bh on Showdown and have to say that I think Triage Mega Rayquaza is worthy of a ban. +3 priority oblivion wing is simply outrageous. Rayquaza can easily run a set with tail glow/oblivion wing/substitute/coverage move or spore, and the only threats to it are opposing pixelate and refrigerate users who can outspeed it. I've been using the following set:

Rayquaza-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Burn Up
- Tail Glow
- Oblivion Wing
- Spore


Yes, you don't even need bulk since the priority of oblivion wing is so outrageous. Full hp investment allows you to even survive an Extreme Speed from 252 atk Mega Diancie and KO back with Oblivion wing if you managed to Tail Glow. It also kills Mega Mewtwo x due to oblivion wing outprioritizing anything Espeed and Fake Out not killing. Burn up nearly OHKOs Registeel, so it can't even switch in. Replacing Spore with Substitute makes it really hard to Status or Impostor; I run Spore so that it can hit switchins and easily boost. Alternatively, you can run Earth Power to smack Flash Fire Aegislash, or quiver dance > tail glow to improve your chances against other fast offensive teams.
I know Impostor Chansey can counter this if it manages to impostor before the sub is set up, but then the impostor sweeps nearly unhindered as not even -ate users can kill it, unless they sac themselves one after another. It's just way too good. I think the ability, not the mon, should be banned, as +3 priority on anything is phenomenal. Deoxys-A could use a similar set, and though it's ohkoed by anything, it's much much faster which allows it to set up a tail glow against a lot more things.
 

ih8ih8sn0w

Koreaboo
is a Researcher Alumnus
I've been playing bh on Showdown and have to say that I think Triage Mega Rayquaza is worthy of a ban. +3 priority oblivion wing is simply outrageous. Rayquaza can easily run a set with tail glow/oblivion wing/substitute/coverage move or spore, and the only threats to it are opposing pixelate and refrigerate users who can outspeed it. I've been using the following set:

Rayquaza-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Burn Up
- Tail Glow
- Oblivion Wing
- Spore


Yes, you don't even need bulk since the priority of oblivion wing is so outrageous. Full hp investment allows you to even survive an Extreme Speed from 252 atk Mega Diancie and KO back with Oblivion wing if you managed to Tail Glow. It also kills Mega Mewtwo x due to oblivion wing outprioritizing anything Espeed and Fake Out not killing. Burn up nearly OHKOs Registeel, so it can't even switch in. Replacing Spore with Substitute makes it really hard to Status or Impostor; I run Spore so that it can hit switchins and easily boost. Alternatively, you can run Earth Power to smack Flash Fire Aegislash, or quiver dance > tail glow to improve your chances against other fast offensive teams.
I know Impostor Chansey can counter this if it manages to impostor before the sub is set up, but then the impostor sweeps nearly unhindered as not even -ate users can kill it, unless they sac themselves one after another. It's just way too good. I think the ability, not the mon, should be banned, as +3 priority on anything is phenomenal. Deoxys-A could use a similar set, and though it's ohkoed by anything, it's much much faster which allows it to set up a tail glow against a lot more things.
I'd like to point out that burn up fails on that set no matter what. It requires fire typing to be a current type that the Pokemon has or it fails. (praise actually broken mechanics on the server)
 
I haven't seen a lot of Rayquaza and I'm willing to bet that it's related to the fact that everybody runs Unaware Chansey + Unaware Yveltal + Prankster Haze Steel Types + Dazzling + Psychic terrain is up.

It might become an issue later on, but for now I think the issue everyone a lot of people want to hear about are z-moves. In particular Extreme Evoboost.
Might make a ranty post later on. But I do think z-moves as a whole are a problem.
 

ih8ih8sn0w

Koreaboo
is a Researcher Alumnus
I haven't seen a lot of Rayquaza and I'm willing to bet that it's related to the fact that everybody runs Unaware Chansey + Unaware Yveltal + Prankster Haze Steel Types + Dazzling + Psychic terrain is up.

It might become an issue later on, but for now I think the issue everyone a lot of people want to hear about are z-moves. In particular Extreme Evoboost.
Might make a ranty post later on. But I do think z-moves as a whole are a problem.
It isn't helping that PS gives them 2pp basically, or that a lot of things are even functioning correctly. Everything right now feels rushed and unplayable seriously, which is making the meta appear even worse than what will be. Z-moves may still be a problem later, but saying things are broken in an undeveloped meta may lead to pointless bans.
 
Yeah, z moves are definitely crazy rn, even if they were limited to 1 pp most of them can net the user a kill which is all it really wanted. Psychic Terrain boosted Genesis Supernova almost ohkos Registeel, which basically means that the user just gained a bunch of momentum with low risk. When they start banning stuff, a z-move clause which limits a team to 1 or 2 z moves total might be in order.

Primal Groudon's super strong here also. Choice Band V-Create can ohko everything except the bulkiest water types. If you don't like the choice lock, you can also run a bulky spdef set with poison heal, and only water moves can break you. And then you can run thousand arrows to get neutral coverage on everything in the meta and deal fair damage and that's without any attack investment. All while being immune to status and gaining hp.
 
I think a clause that limits the amount of evoboost's on a team is necessary. It's not as broken if only one or two pokemon per team can get it & the PP stays at 1. But rn, it's pretty disgusting.
 
That would be handled by the z-moves clause, which is better in general. But as they say, bans have to wait a little while for the meta to take shape.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
[gen 7] Balanced Hackmons is live!
First off, unlike Chatter, Moody, and Stag it isn't uncompetative. Obviously Pure and Huge Power aren't either, but it is a consideration.
By what measure? IMO the main reason Protean was banned was because it took unpredictability to the highest degree in that you can't check it at all because that involves knowing which moves the Protean user had. While that is true for a lot of sets, with Protean you simply don't have enough time to scout, since that could mean you've already lost a wall or are in a position you can't return from. This has only been enhanced in this gen.

Secondly, and more importantly, Protean was playable.
I'm gonna ignore this because Huge Power, Pure Power, Shadow Tag, Moody and Chatter were "playable" over the course of gen6. This is meaningless.
Protean scaling up isn't really a factor either, because that's true of every ability not directly nerfed, and unless signature Z-moves can be hacked the power hasn't actually increased that much. We also have a few new potential walls - Magearna, Solgalgeo, Celestina and Zygarde complete
A decent point but imo the scale up for Protean is a lot more than for other abilities. These "new walls", even the old Protean sets can still handily 2hko, and this is without considering any new moves. On top of that, add the new MoldBreaker-In-A-Can Moves, and fixed BP Z moves which are 2 pp use atm, take out some of the only checks Protean had. Then, consider that there is a Terrain that prevents priority revenge killing (another check that Protean had in the previous generation had), it kinda becomes a no brainer. I don't want to waste time in the beginning on Protean. And as I said, once the meta settles down, then we can try suspecting it again later, and I don't see how that is a problem other than not being able to statpad with Protean in the early meta. For me, this is the most minimal banlist I could've made.


Will there be a new suspects and bans thread or are we going to continue using this one?
As far as I know, this thread will continue, but there will be a new ladder thread which I shall create and post soon. If this changes at any point in the future, I shall update that accordingly as well.

Now that Gen 7 Balanced Hackmons is up, I would like to discuss putting Extreme Evoboost up for quick-ban. Here is my reasoning:
  • For one, it has simply no downsides. Even with 1 PP, it is better than currently every other boosting move in the game and can be even potentially reused with Leppa Berry and further used with Recycle or Harvest
  • It is splashable on any mon and multiple mons in the team can make use of it in a team fitting this to a tee from the OP
    • The move can be run effectively without needing real synergy with the Pokemon itself, its ability, the rest of its moveset, item or any in-game condition.
  • It is difficult to remove these boosts without making use of Prankster status effects, and apart from Haze, a lot of these cannot be used in terrains or on the Priority-canceling abilities
Please discuss whether you agree or disagree.
Thanks and have fun as always! Hope to see you on the ladder
 
Completely agree on quickbanning Extreme Evoboost. You can literally run it on any pokemon you want and have some kind of success. It isn't limited to being on a physical or special attacker, and honestly being able to use it twice per pokemon (or whatever that number is) is more than enough. It's at the point where Evoboost on 6 mons is probably the best team you can make. Take that and add any abilities you want (Dazzling, magic bounce etc) + sunsteel strike and moongeist beam, and it is WAY too overpowered. +1 for quickban
 
Yeah, Evoboost really needs to go. It's by far the best boosting move of all time, and so many things are basically impossible to stop once they get going, and the defense boosts make it so easy to set up and hard to revenge kill. I've been playing on ladder with a 4x Evoboost team and I've never lost a game, even really competent teams get absolutely stomped, there's no way to effectively deal with this strategy.

A complex ban like aki0s suggested is a bad idea I think -- complex bans are something that should be saved for extreme cases where there's no other option available to us. This is clearly not that kind of situation, Evoboost is just busted.

Other things that I think should be looked at after Evoboost goes:
  • Dazzling/Queenly Majesty/Psychic Terrain
  • Water Bubble
  • Triage / Mega Rayquaza
  • Primal Groudon
 

Uselesscrab

the life you chose to lead had the desired effect
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Moderator
Now that Gen 7 Balanced Hackmons is up, I would like to discuss putting Extreme Evoboost up for quick-ban.
Please.

I'd hate to call for a premature ban, but this move is pretty ridiculous. All other forms of boosting are rendered unviable. Obviously it was worse when it was usable twice rather than once, but this move basically necessitates the use of an Unaware Dark-type (for Power Trip and Stored Power) and/or a Prankster Haze user, and even then it's possible to use Sunsteel Strike or Fairy coverage like motherlove's Twinkle Tackle set (in the first case), which with a strong enough attacker is pretty difficult to withstand, or Extreme Speed (in the second case) on something idiotic like Simple Regigigas. I'm pretty sure Water Bubble Primal Kyogre with Evoboost, Water Shuriken, Steam Eruption, and Earth Power also beats both of the above.

In addition to pure offensive power, the Defense and Speed boosts, possibility of Dazzling, and the fact that this can be run successfully on literally any Pokemon, make it impossible to revenge kill with typical checks like -ates or simple fast stuff.

This move is the epitome of "run effectively without needing real synergy with the Pokemon itself, its ability, the rest of its moveset, item or any in-game condition." I'm pretty sure I've seen it today alone on Deoxys-Attack, Yveltal, Lunala, Solgaleo, Primal Kyogre, Zygarde-Complete, Primal Groudon, Mega Heracross, Arceus and Magnezone (okay, this last one was me). There is no single ability or move that provides any degree of special synergy.

Make it go away and let me worry about 1 BP attacks instead.

edit: fwiw I agree with all of MAMP's proposed future suspects, though I'm not sure Triage is banworthy as long as we keep the priority-stoppers around
 

drampa's grandpa

Whatcha doin'?
is a Pre-Contributor
I'd also be on board with a quickban.

The two main ways of countering Extreme Evoboost that I've found (besides not letting it set up, which I find unreasonable) are Prankster Haze and Unaware. Both of these are extremely easy to circumvent, Unaware with Mold Breaker or Moongeist Beam / Sunsteel Strike / Stored Power / Dark version of Stored Power and Haze by just using priority. You can run Dazzling to prevent revenge killing, and use Mega Gengar to be Imposter-proof. Not that revenge killing is a big problem at +2.

There's basically no opportunity cost to running it, and the entire meta right now is who can counter the evoboost sweeper the other person happened to bring, and if you can't, who's turn 1 sweeper wins and sweeps the rest of their team. That's not fun, that's a game of matchup.
 

ih8ih8sn0w

Koreaboo
is a Researcher Alumnus
Something I mentioned on PS, what about a clause that limits z-moves, or the usage of certain z-moves on multiple pokemon? Evoboost is probably going to still be broken with the current path the meta is going down, but this may be a suitable option. I do agree that it is broken right now as anything can just run it and win, but removing it pre-maturely without a chance of it being allowed back in comes off as too much.
On second thought, this is actually broken from playing ladder games. The wincon is too easy.
 

GL Volkner

reclaim your crown
is a Tiering Contributor
Extreme Evoboost is, as MAMP said, the best boosting move of all time. Boosts from moves like AncientPower and Z-Geomancy are as close as you'll get to having Extreme Evoboost, but +2 boosts in all stats are much more powerful than +1 boosts in all stats. We all know how a boost from AncientPower can turn a game in any tier - +2 in all stats is even worse. Currently, I run Unaware Zygarde-Complete with Spectral Thief to check an Extreme Evoboost mon, but the fact that you can run Extreme Evoboost on multiple mons really makes this strategy something that only really works once. It isn't like mons with Extreme Evoboost are hard to Imposterproof, either.

I run Extreme Evoboost x Power Trip on Yveltal [Credit for this idea goes to E4 Flint ] and Gyarados and with the new Prankster nerf, Topsy Turvy/Will-O-Wisp/Heart Swap doesn't affect them unless the opponent lives a hit and isn't Prankster. If the opponent uses an Imposter Chansey, Zygarde tanks a Power Trip from Pokemon at +3 to all stats due to Unaware and steals the boosts. (I feel like I awkwardly phrased that.) Unaware Yveltal is also a pretty good check, but if you run into a Mold Breaker Extreme Evoboost Dark-type, that becomes extremely difficult to check. I haven't seen that type of 'mon used, though, so I'd like to see how effective it'd be in practice.

It's also worth mentioning the (relative) lack of opportunity cost caused by running this move. Tell me, what Pokemon doesn't appreciate a free +2 to all stats? ...Any volunteers?The reason Extreme Evoboost is exclusive to Eevee in the main games is because it is a stupid move, simply put. Keep it that way. And GameFreak? Next time, think about the moves you make so metas don't have to call for premature bans.

(I'm sure that I said some stuff that could be taken in the wrong way/is blatantly incorrect so please point any errors out and I'll fix it.)

Tl;Dr: Ban Extreme Evoboost. It is the epitome of an unhealthy boosting move with next to no opportunity cost in using it. GameFreak is stupid.
 
Yea, I've been playing the new ladder pretty much all day today and it's totally ridden with Extreme Evoboost, and for good reason. There's no reason to not use it as it isn't limited in any way. Both before and after the bugfix where Evoboost had 2 PP it was incredibly busted. +2 to all stats is nuts, obviously. The entire meta is just attempting to sweep with Evoboost or attempting to counter the enemy's Evoboost sweepers or a mix of both. I've been using Imposter Chansey + Haze Aegislash to attempt to stop sweepers but against 4 or 5, or god forbid a full team of Evoboost monsters its pretty easy for one sweeper to soften up your checks for another to utterly destroy your team. Evoboost users can also so very easily protect themselves from common Evoboost replies such as Power Trip / Stored Power to beat Unaware or Judgment with a Plate to counter Imposter, packing Dazzling, the list goes on. All in all, banning this busted move is the way to go, for sure.
 
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God yes, get evoboost out of here. It's simply brainless. The only skill involved is finding coverage that doesn't beat your imposter-wall, but does beat their wall. A signle missplay on your part will lose the game, even if you are up 6-2, simply because of how hard they are to stop.
 
Yes, totally agree with banning Extreme Evoboost. I also still advocate that a team can carry only 2 z-moves without a -z item. Forcing a user to use the z-item does make them easier to deal with, just as forcing Primal Groudon to hold a mega stone kept it in check. I haven't ran into a team that used more than 2 extreme evo-boosts, and my unaware Arceus with Spirit Shackle handled them alright, but I can definitely see how running more than 2 would overwhelm any team no matter who good it is.
In short: Agreed about banning Eboost.

About Psychic Terrain/Queenly Majesty/Dazzling those are quite balanced. For Psychic Terrain you have to devote a whole moveslot to it, and the mon yo put it on still has to be able to survive Extreme Speed unless you give it Psychic Surge. I do agree about suspecint Triage, Water Bubble and P-don though.
 
I 100% agree with Extreme Evoboost being banned, as does basically everyone who plays the tier competitively and wants to see it grow. Keeping this move turns the metagame into a non-competitive game of who can click Extreme Evoboost first and win, which is not healthy for the tier, and really isn't fun to play with in general (unless you are a sick person). After seeing the response to the possible ban of this move, it seems quite clear that it will be quick banned. Because of this, there are a couple other points I would like to bring up for discussion to see other's opinions.

Possible suspects:

  1. Abilities:
  • Dazzling / Queenly Majesty
  • Psychic Surge
  • Triage
  • Water Bubble
  1. Attacks:
  • Z-Moves
  1. Pokemon:
  • Mega Rayquaza
  • Primal Groudon

While these seem like a cool break from the -ate spam that was gen 6 BH, we come across the problem that the only way to revenge kill these Pokemon are Unaware users, or Pokemon that are simply bulky enough to revenge. The problem with the latter is that if they are bulky enough, majority of the time they don't have enough attack to actually kill the Pokemon. It's safe to assume that you are only going to have 1 or 2 Pokemon that have enough defensive investment to live a hit, and even the 1 attack each that the two are going to be able to get off probably won't be able to make a difference, unless the opponent is running an incredibly frail Pokemon. One of the worse parts of this ability is that you won't know if the opposing Pokemon has it until you attempt to attack it with a priority attack (this includes Prankster) or just happen to have a lucky guess.

Reason not to ban: Well, unless you truly hate -ate with every fiber of your body, I fail to see any solid reasoning for not banning this ability.

Perhaps the better Dazzling, for Psychic types at least. Psychic Surge, for those that don't know, sets up a Psychic Terrain which boosts Psychic type moves, and also blocks priority moves. Mega Mewtwo Y and Deoxys-Attack are the two best users of this ability from my findings, but don't sleep on Solgaleo or Lunala either. This basically has the same reasoning for Dazzling as to why to ban, but also has a few other positive factors. This ability is somewhat passable to other teammates since the terrain carries over. The other positive is the already mentioned boost to Psychic attacks.

Reason not to ban: The only reason to not ban is because it's limited to Psychic types. And about that argument, as far as I know the priority blocking works for all Pokemon. I do believe if Dazzling goes, this should also be banned.


Triage gives priority to healing moves. This includes attacks such as Oblivion Wing and Drain Punch. There seems to be a few Pokemon that can use this ability, but the biggest factor is Mega Rayquaza. Shell Smash with Oblivion Wing is extremely difficult to revenge kill, thanks to Triage outprioritizing Extreme Speed. I mentioned Drain Punch because of E4 Flint using this set against me. This allows Pokemon like Registeel unable to switch in. This priority is unmatchable, sharing the same level (+3) as Fake Out, which means if Rayquaza can outspeed the Fake Out user, it goes first and kills.

Reason not to ban: Uhh... only a couple moves are compatible with it? This level of priority is crazy. Perhaps if it was only +2 it would be somewhat better, but only protection beats it.


One that will probably take longer to deal with than the others. This doubles the power of water type moves. This forces you to run a Pokemon with Water Absorb, or maybe, maybe an Imposter Chansey is able to take care of it. Palkia and Kyogre are some of the better options for this ability. Regular Chansey is unable to counter this ability because it gets 2HKO'd. I don't know if it's just me, but I don't think a metagame where you are forced to run something otherwise unviable to counter something is good.

Reason not to ban: It's limited to strong water type Pokemon. Only reason I see.


The most broken thing in the current metagame. The power creep has never reached this level. This is a very huge section for moves, and I'm sure there are a couple that are balanced, but unless someone wants to go through and test every single one of these, we should just ban them all. This extremely limits the number of switch-ins many Pokemon have. It could be beneficial to actually go through all of the moves and only ban the obviously broken ones, and do that if you want to.


I don't have really anything to say on this currently, but just something to think about as the meta develops.

I was not a serious BH player when the suspect for the primals happened. I now realize why Primal Groudon was banned however. This Assist Thousand Arrows bypasses blocking priority and 2HKOs about 90% of the meta. Not ok. Again maybe wait a while before actually taking action on this, but the Z-Moves and some Abilities I do believe need to be taken care of ASAP.


Thanks for reading my post! You can probably tell when I got tired of writing, but hopefully I got my points across. As I said in the end of the Groudon section, I only think that the Z-Moves and a couple of the Abilities should be taken care of right away. Others should let the meta settle down a lot to form a better opinion.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
So i just thoerymonned real quick and I think i stumbled upon the next quickban
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-479354848

The only reason I don't want to go through with this right away is because I'm not sure if Assist can call them in game. Paging ih8ih8sn0w as the only person I know who can confirm for us.

opening up discussion for quickban of assist
 

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