Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans

You really don't understand how to deal with -ates don't you? Counters fear fire attacks? lol Flash Fire Aegislash? for example. And by using one of that pokémon, they are never OHKO by magma storms or searing shots. Dialga is not murdered to techno blast. And you need to know how to use a counter. For example, you're facing -ate ray, so you switch into Shedinja. Then the oponent will use Magma Storm, and what? You just use baton pass to your -ate diancie, and Fake out LOL. It depends on your skill! This is just an example, there are more. Like switching to Flash fire/Levitate pokémon when coverage moves...
can you not with the unnecessary aggression. Ff aegi dies to ground coverage like i said. A mon doesnt have to be ohkoed to not be a solid counter idk why you think thats the case. Dialga takes an asston from techno blast and certianly isnt a switchin. With sheddy, you cant just baton pass to your -ate diancie because if the ray magma storms you on a predicted switch you lose. A lot of these "counters" rely on you having an incompetent opponent to work.
That kind of unsupported point of view just gets me pissed off! Your comment has no supporting arguments and no valid justification:"It's a literal bullshit "click fake out then espeed and anything but a specialized counter dies" LOL.
this literally isnt an exaggeration? like almost every relevant threat in the metagame can be offensively checked by -ate users? It really is absurd ngl. I fail to see how this is not a valid form of justification for my claim.
The only one that is not understanding is you: obviously -ates are a threat and it's up to you and your team to have at least 1-2 checks for them. -Ates are a threat, as well as Endeavor Shedinja, as well as Gale Wings Mega Ray, as well as Swords Dance Mega Diancie, as well as Shift Gear Primal Groudon as well as Poison Heal Kyogre and Tyranitar as well as THE ENTIRE META!
This is Balanced Hackmons, not Pussy Hackmons ok? It's up to you and your skill to get adapted and to build a team to cover the maxium of threats.
Im saying that you need an answer to -ate as well as every type of coverage that could come along with it, so you cant just run one check to it, youre forced to run multiple assortments of checks to have any kind of chance. Its quite overpowered to able to check nearly everything but walls with -ate mega diancie and an incredible strain on teambuilding to prepare for as it basically picks and chooses the things it loses to. that's the reason i really believe -ates should be suspected and subsequently banned.
 
can you not with the unnecessary aggression. Ff aegi dies to ground coverage like i said. A mon doesnt have to be ohkoed to not be a solid counter idk why you think thats the case. Dialga takes an asston from techno blast and certianly isnt a switchin. With sheddy, you cant just baton pass to your -ate diancie because if the ray magma storms you on a predicted switch you lose. A lot of these "counters" rely on you having an incompetent opponent to work.
Wrong, you just need to be more competent than your opponent, overpredict them. And aegi was just an example. You can use FC chansey if you want. Most of rays have 1 fire/ground type attack. It's up to you to have checks for both and use one of them when you need. As i told you before, shed is great if you are smart. If you think the oponent may predict your shed and Magma Storm you, just put a flashfire on your team. Or a levitate one if you fear them. Dialga is not a switch in obviously, i never said that, what i told you was Dialga can face them. Techno Blast is used but not so used as Boomburst. So you can put him Soundproof and invest ev on Def. Assault vest aegislash with Nuzzle just ruins their strategy. It resists Magma Storm/Searing shot and can paralyze them. Tyranitar is a good check for ray and kyurem too. EV defense Soundproof groudon does a good job too.
A pokémon with King's Shield can lower their attack (if you predict fake out+espeed, like i said is up to you to predict, if you can't the problem is yours, not from the -ates). Gengar does a good job doing this. Levitate Probopass i dont understand why you mocked with him? Immune to ground and is Rock/Steel x4 resistant to flying, x2 resistant to ice and fairy. Almost any good team has Registeel or Aegislash or Tyranitar or chansey. You have many options to deal with -ates. An -ate itself can be a counter too. Have you tought on Pixilate Mega Ray (with pixie plate)? It beats ray, kyurem and Diancie. There are many options to deal with them. As i told before it's up to you to build a good team that may trap the others in predict to defeat them. And there's a clause to -ate abusers already. Limit of 1. No need to complain more.
 
can you not with the unnecessary aggression. Ff aegi dies to ground coverage like i said. A mon doesnt have to be ohkoed to not be a solid counter idk why you think thats the case. Dialga takes an asston from techno blast and certianly isnt a switchin. With sheddy, you cant just baton pass to your -ate diancie because if the ray magma storms you on a predicted switch you lose. A lot of these "counters" rely on you having an incompetent opponent to work.
this literally isnt an exaggeration? like almost every relevant threat in the metagame can be offensively checked by -ate users? It really is absurd ngl. I fail to see how this is not a valid form of justification for my claim.

Im saying that you need an answer to -ate as well as every type of coverage that could come along with it, so you cant just run one check to it, youre forced to run multiple assortments of checks to have any kind of chance. Its quite overpowered to able to check nearly everything but walls with -ate mega diancie and an incredible strain on teambuilding to prepare for as it basically picks and chooses the things it loses to. that's the reason i really believe -ates should be suspected and subsequently banned.
Aegislash is totally an -ate counter, as far as counters go in BH. Not only is EP a far less relevant option (it's not even in the analysis, that's still far from clicking fakespeed and winning- Aegislash isn't a dedicated counter, it's a solid wall and a great impproofer- ntm that earth power doesn't even 2hko without heavy investment, dealing a mere 43 %. This means you either ruin your fakespeed, or get walled by even physical steels.

It's totally an exaggeration. Not only does it at best revenge kill or act as a situational switching, many common metagame threats such as Latias and PDon still beat it 1v1. Furthermore, that's it's job- saying Fakespeed is broken because it revenge kills things is like calling Chansey broken for walling.

Replace -ate with "offense" or even "Pokemon" and that statement holds true. Even if we accept this as true, that's a terrible argument for banning, especially seeing as you are supposed to prepare for high ranked mons.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
Balanced Freakmons
If you think the oponent may predict your shed and Magma Storm you, just put a flashfire on your team.
So if you mispredict, you lose a mon and probably the game? Note that I don't necessarily think -ate is banworthy, but I think your arguments are poor.

Probopass is awful because Thousand Arrows bypasses Levitate as far as I'm aware (if I'm wrong please correct me), and it's also quad weak to Low Kick/CC/Sword


@QT, Aegi loses to specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 153-181 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
everything loses to specs though so "lol"
 
Sin(pi) i agree with you, but there's always Soundproof to specs. We can lose a pokemon to -ate but not the game. That's what i tried to say. And good teams have always 2 -ate checks. You can put 1 soundproof and 1 other pokemon you think your team needs more: if needs resistance to fire or ground. I only quoted some pokemon as example. The problem is that he thinks on pokemon individually, like he said "FF aegi dies to ground coverage" but -ates almonst never have both. There's no perfect pokemon. He needs to realize that it's his team that must be prepared to face any threat -ate or not, no just one pokémon.
 
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Im making this to show just how absurd mega diancie is with -ate. Here are calcs of it vs every pokemon on the VRs above C rank (because most stuff below that is hardly relevant and i have a life). Separating mons into the categories of “beaten”, “possibly beaten (depending on sets)” and “not beaten” depending on whether mega diancie can beat them 1v1. Only showing relevant calcs here because i dont have the rest of my life to devote to making this. No need to tell me kings shield exists, i know. its still a 50/50 either way. btw im not even doing ray because specs boomburst literally kills everything. If this isnt enough to warrant a pixilate suspect at the least, idk what is.
S Rank

Chansey: Not beaten

252 Atk Mega Diancie Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 204-240 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock



Mega Mewtwo Y: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 159-187 (45 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 318-375 (90 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



Mega Rayquaza: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 236-282 (67.2 - 80.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 476-564 (135.6 - 160.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO



A+ Rank

Giratina: Beaten

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 450-530 (89.4 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Mega Mewtwo X: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 236-282 (66.8 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 474-560 (134.2 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Mega Gengar: Not Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 72-84 (27.5 - 32.1%) -- 73.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 144-169 (55.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 246-291 (102 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


A Rank

Aegislash: Possibly beaten (depending on sets)

252 Atk Mega Diancie Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 214-254 (66 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Mega Diancie Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 154-182 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Red Orb Groudon: Not beaten

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 152 HP / 104 SpD Primal Groudon: 173-204 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 380-450 (157.6 - 186.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Mega Audino: Beaten

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 217-256 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal


Mega Tyranitar: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 168-198 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 336-396 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Registeel: Possibly beaten (depending on sets)

252 Atk Mega Diancie Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 166-196 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Diancie Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Registeel: 214-252 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Diancie Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 166-196 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Diancie Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Registeel: 214-252 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Mega Diancie Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 154-182 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Mega Diancie Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 132-156 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


A- Rank

Dialga: Possibly beaten (depending on sets)

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 76-90 (18.8 - 22.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 153-180 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Techno Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Dialga: 301-355 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Diancie Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 194-230 (48.1 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Diancie Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 194-230 (48.1 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Mega Latias: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 204-242 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 408-482 (135.5 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Mega Latios: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Latios: 236-282 (78.9 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Latios: 474-560 (158.5 - 187.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Shedinja: Possibly beaten (depending on sets)


B+ Rank

Arceus: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 102-121 (23 - 27.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 204-241 (46 - 54.4%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 303-357 (68.3 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252+ Atk Arceus Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 109-129 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO


Kyogre: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 130-154 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 44.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 261-307 (68.6 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal


Kyurem-B: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 236-282 (52.3 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 476-564 (105.5 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Yveltal: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Yveltal: 218-258 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Yveltal: 438-516 (96 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



B Rank

Mega Garchomp: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 212-252 (50.4 - 60%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 422-500 (100.4 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Mega Gyarados: Beaten

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 564-666 (143.1 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 218-260 (56.7 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 444-524 (115.6 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Regigigas: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 109-130 (25.7 - 30.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 220-259 (51.8 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 327-385 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 135-159 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Slaking: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slaking: 118-141 (23.4 - 27.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slaking: 237-280 (47 - 55.5%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slaking: 502-592 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 135-159 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


B- Rank

Gengarite Gengar: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 72-84 (27.5 - 32.1%) -- 73.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 144-169 (55.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Ho-Oh: Possibly beaten (depending on sets)

252 Atk Mega Diancie Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ho-Oh: 248-294 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Mega Blaziken: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Blaziken: 144-169 (47.8 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Blaziken: 288-339 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Mega Metagross: Not beaten (tho tbh idk what this runs, assuming reven vest but idkkk im like 99% sure this wins 1v1 tho)

4 SpA Mega Diancie Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Mega Metagross: 172-204 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Diancie Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 214-254 (58.9 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Mega Metagross Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 728-864 (302 - 358.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Regirock: Beaten

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Regirock: 207-244 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Xerneas: Beaten
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 124-147 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- 2.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 249-294 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

From S to B- rank, 20 pokemon are beaten by diancie 1v1. 5 pokemon are possibly beaten depending on their own set, and the set of mega diancie. Finally, only 4 pokemon actually beat diancie 1v1 (doesnt mean they can switch in!) no matter what. This means diancie blanket checks roughly 69% of the metagame all the time just by using its standard pixilate set. With the appropriate coverage moves in the last slot, it rises to around 86%. this is what i mean by "anything that isnt a specialized counter dies" and this is why its such a strain on teambuilding. Pixilate sets are absurdly good and diancie is just one potential abuser. Even other mons like mmx can abuse pixilate and get similar results. Its literally insane. Refrigerate has very similar coverage btw so that is definitely problematic as well. Basically the only reason its not reallly used as often is that pixilate just has a better abuser, but if pixilate got banned it would likely start being used by stuff like mray regardless. I actually think aerilate is a fair bit less broken than the other two -ates, and that mega ray is the most broken aspect of it just due to flying not having very good coverage in this metagame, but ray being the thing that gives it the sheer force necessary to blast by resists. I wouldnt be opposed to testing aerilate in a metagame free of pixilate, refrigerate, and mray, but thats just me. I would certainly rather see all -ates banned than none, as building to handle -ates is pretty painful tbh.
 
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I think you are forgetting Spore which let's it beat Chansey and Primal Groudon. Oh, and everything it outspeeds that doesn't have goggles such as bulky mega meta. Id hardly say Mega Gengar can't be beaten by mega diancie since espeed does well over half so with just a bit of prior damage diancie can easily revenge kill mega gengar.

With that aside, I find that by far the best switchin to ate is Prankster Registeel with Destiny Bond. It can grab momentum through Parting Shot letting less bulky mons such as Mega Audino to wall it and if it runs Pricepice Blades or V-Create (other coverage moves are easily recovered off). Also you can Parting Shot to scout the coverage move it has after you switch in, taking a mere 20% from espeed even with SpDef.
 
Balanced Freakmons

So if you mispredict, you lose a mon and probably the game? Note that I don't necessarily think -ate is banworthy, but I think your arguments are poor.

Probopass is awful because Thousand Arrows bypasses Levitate as far as I'm aware (if I'm wrong please correct me), and it's also quad weak to Low Kick/CC/Sword


@QT, Aegi loses to specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 153-181 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
everything loses to specs though so "lol"
Agreed about specs winning, but specs isn't fakespeeding shit.

Im making this to show just how absurd mega diancie is with -ate. Here are calcs of it vs every pokemon on the VRs above C rank (because most stuff below that is hardly relevant and i have a life). Separating mons into the categories of “beaten”, “possibly beaten (depending on sets)” and “not beaten” depending on whether mega diancie can beat them 1v1. Only showing relevant calcs here because i dont have the rest of my life to devote to making this. No need to tell me kings shield exists, i know. its still a 50/50 either way. btw im not even doing ray because specs boomburst literally kills everything. If this isnt enough to warrant a pixilate suspect at the least, idk what is.
S Rank

Chansey: Not beaten

252 Atk Mega Diancie Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 204-240 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock



Mega Mewtwo Y: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 159-187 (45 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 318-375 (90 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



Mega Rayquaza: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 236-282 (67.2 - 80.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 476-564 (135.6 - 160.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO



A+ Rank

Giratina: Beaten

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 450-530 (89.4 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Mega Mewtwo X: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 236-282 (66.8 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 474-560 (134.2 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Mega Gengar: Not Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 72-84 (27.5 - 32.1%) -- 73.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 144-169 (55.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 246-291 (102 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


A Rank

Aegislash: Possibly beaten (depending on sets)

252 Atk Mega Diancie Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 214-254 (66 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Mega Diancie Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 154-182 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Red Orb Groudon: Not beaten

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 152 HP / 104 SpD Primal Groudon: 173-204 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 380-450 (157.6 - 186.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Mega Audino: Beaten

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 217-256 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal


Mega Tyranitar: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 168-198 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 336-396 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Registeel: Possibly beaten (depending on sets)

252 Atk Mega Diancie Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 166-196 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Diancie Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Registeel: 214-252 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Diancie Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 166-196 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Diancie Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Registeel: 214-252 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Mega Diancie Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 154-182 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Mega Diancie Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 132-156 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


A- Rank

Dialga: Possibly beaten (depending on sets)

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 76-90 (18.8 - 22.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 153-180 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Techno Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Dialga: 301-355 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Diancie Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 194-230 (48.1 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Diancie Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 194-230 (48.1 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Mega Latias: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 204-242 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 408-482 (135.5 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Mega Latios: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Latios: 236-282 (78.9 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Latios: 474-560 (158.5 - 187.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Shedinja: Possibly beaten (depending on sets)


B+ Rank

Arceus: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 102-121 (23 - 27.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 204-241 (46 - 54.4%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 303-357 (68.3 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252+ Atk Arceus Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 109-129 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO


Kyogre: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 130-154 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 44.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 261-307 (68.6 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal


Kyurem-B: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 236-282 (52.3 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 476-564 (105.5 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Yveltal: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Yveltal: 218-258 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Yveltal: 438-516 (96 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



B Rank

Mega Garchomp: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 212-252 (50.4 - 60%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 422-500 (100.4 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Mega Gyarados: Beaten

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 564-666 (143.1 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 218-260 (56.7 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 444-524 (115.6 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Regigigas: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 109-130 (25.7 - 30.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 220-259 (51.8 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 327-385 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 135-159 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Slaking: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slaking: 118-141 (23.4 - 27.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slaking: 237-280 (47 - 55.5%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slaking: 502-592 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 135-159 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


B- Rank

Gengarite Gengar: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 72-84 (27.5 - 32.1%) -- 73.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 144-169 (55.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Ho-Oh: Possibly beaten (depending on sets)

252 Atk Mega Diancie Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ho-Oh: 248-294 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Mega Blaziken: Beaten

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Blaziken: 144-169 (47.8 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Blaziken: 288-339 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Mega Metagross: Not beaten (tho tbh idk what this runs, assuming reven vest but idkkk im like 99% sure this wins 1v1 tho)

4 SpA Mega Diancie Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Mega Metagross: 172-204 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Diancie Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 214-254 (58.9 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Mega Metagross Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 728-864 (302 - 358.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Regirock: Beaten

4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Regirock: 207-244 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Xerneas: Beaten
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 124-147 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- 2.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 249-294 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

From S to B- rank, 20 pokemon are beaten by diancie 1v1. 5 pokemon are possibly beaten depending on their own set, and the set of mega diancie. Finally, only 4 pokemon actually beat diancie 1v1 (doesnt mean they can switch in!) no matter what. This means diancie blanket checks roughly 69% of the metagame all the time just by using its standard pixilate set. With the appropriate coverage moves in the last slot, it rises to around 86%. this is what i mean by "anything that isnt a specialized counter dies" and this is why its such a strain on teambuilding. Pixilate sets are absurdly good and diancie is just one potential abuser. Even other mons like mmx can abuse pixilate and get similar results. Its literally insane. Refrigerate has very similar coverage btw so that is definitely problematic as well. Basically the only reason its not reallly used as often is that pixilate just has a better abuser, but if pixilate got banned it would likely start being used by stuff like mray regardless. I actually think aerilate is a fair bit less broken than the other two -ates, and that mega ray is the most broken aspect of it just due to flying not having very good coverage in this metagame, but ray being the thing that gives it the sheer force necessary to blast by resists. I wouldnt be opposed to testing aerilate in a metagame free of pixilate, refrigerate, and mray, but thats just me. I would certainly rather see all -ates banned than none, as building to handle -ates is pretty painful tbh.
Most of this is accurate, but I'd like to correct a few of your assumptions.
First off- MRay is not a guarenteed win, as fake out+espeed (Sky plate) has a 18.8% chance to be KOd after rocks.
Secondly- Giratina. Prankster Tina can destiny bond, and at the very least PH tina carries a protect move, so it'll be at full and ready to metal burst.
Thirdly- MMX has a very viable -ate set of its own, which easily wins
Fifth- Regirock almost always carries either sand stream or soundproof, so that calc isn't happening often.

Additional things- 66%, not 69%; 83%, not 86%. Diancie doesn't check itself by definition.
Kings Sheild also is a thing, and while I know you didn't count it it does shake this up a lot, both in removing fake out vs a lot of mon's and potentially earning a -2 attack.
Even in getting the calls you did, you still needed 9 moves, and while this still is picking and choosing counters it's not getting anywhere near that many KOs on a regular basis, and in checking some of these threats it's effectively suiciding- VS MRay it can't switch out if rocks are up, vs Xerneas it then loses to anything that can live a hit, etc.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
Sin(pi) i agree with you, but there's always Soundproof to specs. We can lose a pokemon to -ate but not the game. That's what i tried to say. And good teams have always 2 -ate checks. You can put 1 soundproof and 1 other pokemon you think your team needs more: if needs resistance to fire or ground. I only quoted some pokemon as example. The problem is that he thinks on pokemon individually, like he said "FF aegi dies to ground coverage" but -ates almonst never have both. There's no perfect pokemon. He needs to realize that it's his team that must be prepared to face any threat -ate or not, no just one pokémon.
My understanding is that Specs Ray always (or at least often) carries Techno Blast.

252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 406-478 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
and if you're running that much SpDef, then:
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Rayquaza Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dialga: 304-358 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
nb: you're still imposterproofed by FC Chansey if you carry Secret Sword:
252 SpA Mega Rayquaza Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 158-186 (24.6 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO

You're right in that specs Ray is not a revenge killer so it's not going to sweep.


Im making this to show just how absurd mega diancie is with -ate.
...
If this isnt enough to warrant a pixilate suspect at the least, idk what is.
I appreciate your post, but all I got from it was "Diancie is the only mon that's broken with Pixilate", which implies we should ban Diancie. This actually led me to a realisation (admittedly this is more based on OU tiering philosophy, but I'd like for anyone who disagrees to explain why, because I'm not infallible):

All of the talk on -ate users has been centred on a very small group of abusers. It's only really problematic when the users have STAB (note: I am not proposing a complex ban of STAB + -ate) - fridge MMX is cool but how many times have you thought "this thing is broken"? This is different to Protean, where the only question is "are you offensive stats high enough"?
I know people have brought up that Mray will be replaced by Ytal/regular Ray, Diancie by Xern, etc, but are these necessarily broken? Having 30-50 lower base offenses means they will be much easier to wall - for example, PDef FF Registeel isn't 2HKO'd by any move Aerilate Yveltal (and by extension, Pixilate Xern) can throw at it, bar LO variants which are far easier to wear down (PBlades comes fairly close but misses out on the 2HKO even after rocks). FC Chansey checks Specs regular Ray (just about), etc.
Personally, I think Mega Rayquaza is broken, thanks to -ate, GW, Scarf Contrary, Prankster, etc, and maybe Diancie is too (I don't have as much experience vs Diancie though). I'm opposed to an -ate ban, myself.
 
I know people have brought up that Mray will be replaced by Ytal/regular Ray, Diancie by Xern, etc, but are these necessarily broken? Having 30-50 lower base offenses means they will be much easier to wall - for example, PDef FF Registeel isn't 2HKO'd by any move Aerilate Yveltal (and by extension, Pixilate Xern) can throw at it, bar LO variants which are far easier to wear down (PBlades comes fairly close but misses out on the 2HKO even after rocks). FC Chansey checks Specs regular Ray (just about), etc.
Personally, I think Mega Rayquaza is broken, thanks to -ate, GW, Scarf Contrary, Prankster, etc, and maybe Diancie is too (I don't have as much experience vs Diancie though). I'm opposed to an -ate ban, myself.

Here. This is from an old post of mine during the suspect discussion that got -ate clause introduced to begin with. This is X/Y, so a couple points and targets might be a bit out-dated, but I think you'll get the gist regardless.


Rumors said:
Xerneas has an attack of only 131 and special attack of 131, tied with Yveltal, who sometimes uses Aerilate. Compare with the Kyurem forms, who sit at 170/120 for Black and 120/170 for White, and Rayquaza's 150/150. And, while it doesn't get STAB, I've seen a fair bit of Mewtwo-X using Pixilate lately, who sits at 190/154.

Now I need to calculate this against common defensive and bulky Pokemon. For this purpose, I'm going to be using 200/200 neutral nature mixed Xern (remaining EVs are either speed or HP). It is not holding a boosting item.

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 153-180 (36 - 42.4%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 265-313 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 105-124 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Cresselia: 190-225 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre: 139-165 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 144-171 (35.6 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Lugia: 109-129 (30.7 - 36.4%) -- 54.3% chance to 3HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 153-181 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 135-160 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Xerneas: 231-273 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Mega Scizor: 51-61 (18 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Mega Scizor: 114-134 (40.4 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 32-38 (9.3 - 11%) -- possibly the worst move ever

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aggron: 174-204 (50.5 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 49-58 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 85-101 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Z: 63-75 (17.8 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Darmanitan-Z: 110-130 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- 77.6% chance to 3HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 49-58 (16.2 - 19.2%) -- possible 6HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 85-101 (28.1 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 39-46 (10.1 - 11.9%) -- possible 9HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 68-81 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO



Now, for obvious reasons, I did not include stuff Xerneas hits super-effectively or sweepers not investing in bulk as they are both largely OHKOed by Extreme Speed or come rather close. And if not Extreme Speed, then Boomburst invariably does the job.

You'll notice that only Steel types, and Darmitan-Z, are able to sponge Xerneas' Pixelate powered attacks (AV Kyogre lacks recovery without switching, so it can't stay in nor safely switch in. Also, Fake Out). And, in some cases, only some of them. However, we've not even touched Xerneas' common coverage moves. As Xern's most common resistances are weak to Ground, and this is true for Fridge and Air too, it typically is going to be packing either Thousand Arrows or Earth Power for coverage. Here's the same Xern set against the same defensive sets that otherwise could switch into Pixilate.


200 Atk Xerneas Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 74-88 (21.5 - 25.5%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aggron: 230-272 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Thousand Arrows vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 112-134 (42.7 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 112-134 (42.7 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Thousand Arrows vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Z: 146-174 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Darmanitan-Z: 146-174 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Thousand Arrows vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 112-134 (37 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 112-134 (37 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 Atk Xerneas Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 364-432 (94.3 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

200 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 364-432 (94.3 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

(1k Arrows' damage was calculateded by picking Earthquake and setting its base power to 90.)​


As you can see, for all of them, and I do mean all of them, switching in is risky business, even if they have Soundproof or Fur Coat. And thanks to team preview, a switch like this can be much more easily predicted, unlike before where you didn't know about their Heatran until it switched in.

And again, this is Xern without any boosts whatsoever. With just a Life Orb or some hazard support, this Xern set 2HKOs virtually everything with the correct move and a little prediction. Or heck, it may not even need that since Fake Out is a thing. And let's not even talk about the potential effects of Shell Smash on a forced switch.

Hence, there's no feasible defensive counter to this set outside of Shedinja or weird, gimmick stuff like Quick Guard Soundproof Cress (the closest non-gimmick would probably be Soundproof Scizor, but that then gets destroyed by Ember). With some ability tinkering, you can create checks, but those checks only work if Xern doesn't have the proper coverage or something like Gastro Acid to kill your ability. And hell, again, this is Xern. 131/131 offenses, which are the lowest among common -ate abusers. The others, besides Yveltal, get even nastier.​


Mind, that exact set wasn't quite real since 200/200 offensive investment wasn't a thing, but it served a good illustration. Slowbro, Audino, and Fur Coat Chansey weren't really things at the time, so aren't included.​
 
Quantum Tesseract

The issue is that literally THE reason to run kings shield on offensive mons is to screw over fakespeed users. Arguing that this means -ate isn't broken is like arguing that half the metagame running safety goggles or poison heal is proof that a sleep clause isn't needed. It's literally only evidence of centralization and the mons that run it are forfeiting a move slot just to be able to force a 50/50 with fakespeed users.

Side note: fakespeed ray is incredibly hard to justify over fakespeed Diancie and basically not used most of the time because of the incredible opportunity cost of not running diancie instead as quite frankly it's by far the better fakespeed user. I don't really consider it relevant enough to include but I guess that's just me. I also don't consider getting a dbond off to be winning either. You're right about Diancie not checking itself that's my bad. You're also correct about mmx. Also, sand stream gives regirock the same boost as av, no?
 
These calcs are arround for 2 years, -ate offensive checks have been dictated away.
Every suspect so far was strong vs -ate. (P-Don , P-Kyogre, Protean).

You know their -ate moveset + -ate check based on team structure.
SD <-> Unaware, SF/V-Cr <-> Flash Fire, TW PB <-> Levitate, TG <-> Soundproof

Diancle has higher priority on -ate than Ray, if one team has both, 90% the Diancle is the -ate.
 
Hi people! Maybe some of you will disagree with me, and i understand, but today i'm here to talk about a pokémon that i think it must be looked with more attention: Shift Gear Primal Groudon. What I am trying to say is that this pokémon earns a bit more attention due to it's overwhelming power that can be increased.

HP:100

Attack:180

Defense:160

Sp. Atk:150

Sp. Def:90

Speed:90

By only taking a close look to its base stats we can see that thing is a monster by itself. Great attack stat, and high Defense make it a wonderful Physical pokémon. But the main reason of this is the following:

1-Using Shift Gear it can put his high attack and regular speed to astronomic levels. It can outspeed almost the entire metagame with just 1 Shift Gear.
2-By reverting from the normal form with Download, he can up its high Attack stat for free, giving it an extra force with no effort.
3-Access to Thousand Arrows. A STAB that makes no contact, hits flying types, through Levitate and can 2 OHKO pokemons like Mega Ray...1 unboosted Thousand Arrows can put Rayquaza to merely 25%!
4-Access to V-create. A STAB with ridiculously high base power of 180 increased with it's ability Desolate Land that can 1-2 OHKO almost 90% of the metagame, even when it's not very effective. And after Shift Gear, you can imagine what can happen...
5-Our hopes to stop this could be Unaware pokémon to stop Shift Gear, but with V-create under the sun it can 1-2 OHKO even those pokémon: Lugia, Yveltal, Audino...
6-After a Shift Gear it leaves you with almost 0 safe switch-ins.
7-Shedinja could wall it, but the last move of Primal Groudon is Leech Seed.
8-I can only find Imposter Chansey and Fur Coat Giratina to fight this safely. Primordial Sea Yveltal or Ray can work sometimes, but boosted Thousand Arrows is a problem.
9-Imunnity to Will-O-Wisp, he can't be stopped By burn.
10- Access to Synthesis that in sun restores almost its full HP, extending its durability, what can be a bit bad since it is hard to beat due to its Offensive strenght and Physical Bulk leaving us with just the Special side to try to kill it.

Nice calcs:
========

252 Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal in Harsh Sunshine: 420-495 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Audino in Harsh Sunshine: 447-526 (109.2 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Audino in Harsh Sunshine: 225-265 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey in Harsh Sunshine: 559-658 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Harsh Sunshine: 280-330 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Harsh Sunshine: 420-495 (119.6 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Primal Groudon Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 336-396 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia in Harsh Sunshine: 339-400 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus in Harsh Sunshine: 358-423 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Conclusion: I'm not purposing a ban yet, but i think we should make a suspect test about this pokémon, or at least to his set: V-create/Thousand Arrows/Shift Gear/Leech Seed(Synthesis), because its strength leaves people with almost no options and his powerful stabs can defeat a large variety of pokémon considering the entire metagame.
 
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Before we decide whether Pdon may need to be looked at again, I think -ate/Diancie/Ray/whatever should be dealt with, as it is a more pressing problem atm.
I'm a bit new to this chaotic metagame, so may I ask why exactly -ate users are "more pressing problems", especially considering that fat steels can stand in their way, plus Soundproof Slowbro and stuff like that.

(Tangent: When I first saw the -ate clause, I thought Levitate would be included there.)
 
I think it's because -ates hit extremely hard, so they only need anti-Steel coverage like Precipice Blades, Magma Storm to deal with Sturdinja, or Techno Blast to deal with Soundproof Mega Slowbro.
 
Just out of curiosity, why were Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre banned?
I want to see the reasoning behind the suspect test. I think it has something to do with extremely strong Flare Blitz, Sacred Fire, and Origin Pulse, respectively.
 
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sin(pi)

lucky n bad
Just out curiosity, why were Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre banned?
I want to see the reasoning behind the suspect test. I think it has something to do with extremely strong Flare Blitz, Sacred Fire, and Origin Pulse, respectively.
(sorry I can't actually answer your question adequately but you reminded me of something)

On this note, would it be possible to get a paragraph or so detailing each ban? It'd be useful for me at least as a way of seeing the kind of reasoning given to bans in BH specifically (as opposed to OU/Ubers).
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Just out curiosity, why were Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre banned?
I want to see the reasoning behind the suspect test. I think it has something to do with extremely strong Flare Blitz, Sacred Fire, and Origin Pulse, respectively.
groudon is pretty straightforward, 180 attack, superb bulk, 180 base power nuke, a "hits everything" 90 base power attack, and 5 great abilities(deso, adapt, Mold,PH and tinted lens) and to make its allready crazy powerful attacks even stronger. considering pdon is still a really big threat in bh with its restriction in place, goes to show you how bad it was back then when it could run a item, and had more diversity on abilities.

kyogre was a more shaky issue. one that some of us are kinda thinking back on if it was actually worth banning. its poison heal set was near unbreakable specially after a quiver dance, and even revenge killers like rayquaza and diancie were struggling to break it after a QD or two. it was a dominant force of the metagame. dispite not actually seeing much usage, nor preforming nearly as well as ray or don were. it was for specific teams, that kyogre completely 6-0ed with its incredible power and bulk. and its one i personally feel like looking back at might be a potential option in the near future. it was basically a slightly better regular ph kyogre. which alone speaks for itself, as kyogre STILL steamrolls the same teams. so maybe its better off gone.
 
Don't forget the mono-Groudon and mono-Kyogre teams that steamrolled just about everything that wasn't each other. Additionally, even though PH was the flagship set, Kyogre also made a fantastic bulky Protean user and Regenvest user. Plus, thanks to its special bulk, you pretty much had to run a hard-hitting Bolt Strike user and pray it didn't have King's Shield to reliably down any non-Protean set.
 
Yo, why'd this die? Imo -ate is still broken as all shit, and from what I can tell it seems to be pretty unanimously agreed that a suspect would be a good idea. I think we need to come to some sort of consensus on what exactly we should suspect - all -ate abilities, just Aerilate and Pixilate, or do some kind of hybrid suspect test? Or something else entirely? We've only got a couple of months left of Gen 6 BH, might as well get it into the best state we can before moving on to SM.

Speaking of SM, I think it's worth opening a discussion on how bans and suspects will be handled next gen. Bans and suspects this gen have happened very slowly and inconsistently, due to a variety of factors, but I think we can do a lot better next gen.

The meta will undoubtedly change drastically at the onset of SM, and there's no way of telling what it'll look like with all of the new moves, mechanics, Pokemon, and abilities that'll be introduced, and what has proven broken in XY may not be so in SM. Thus, I think the best course of action will be to initially unban everything except things that are banned for being uncompetitive/luck based, and things which are really really undoubtedly broken. The initial ruleset that I would propose is:

BANS
  • Huge Power
  • Pure Power
  • Shadow Tag
  • Arena Trap
  • Wonder Guard
  • Moody
CLAUSES
  • OHKO Clause
  • Evasion Clause
  • Endless Battle Clause (ofc)
The problem here is that this would result in an extremely unbalanced metagame full of broken threats, and if they were all suspected individually, it could take months to reach a stable metagame, and that's being optimistic. To remedy this, we should take an approach to tiering similar to that which kokoloko implemented in beta XY UU earlier this gen -- here's a link explaining how it worked: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/former-uu-tiering-system-voting-records.3520708/#post-5323504

Basically, how the system works is this: a council is appointed, that council votes to quickban anything that is even potentially broken (with the mentality that it's better to ban something that isn't broken than to leave something broken in the tier). Once the metagame has reached a somewhat balanced state (which shouldn't take longer than about a month maybe), the things that were banned can be retested individually with normal suspect tests. This system lets us get the meta to a reasonably balanced state as quickly as possible, which is particularly important because OMGS will start only a couple of months after SM comes out.
 
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Hi MAMP i agree with all you said, and i think we should suspect test Shit Gear Primal Groudon as well since it's so broken imo because:

-it's immune to thunder wave, burns and water attacks
-has incredibly high stats boosted by shift gear, boosting its attack to insanely levels and outspeeds almost anything after 1 single shif gear
-has access to the devastating move V-Create and even Sacred Fire, that boosted by the sun and used with its power nearly OHKO's half of the meta and 2 OHKO's the other half even at +0
-has access to the defenseless move Thousand Arrows that hits flying types, through levitate, has no contact and has high power after a single shift gear
-forces us to use a Fur Coat Giratina or Mega Latias to wall it, that's just a wasted teamslot because its a mon just for groudon.
-recovers 2/3 HP in sun with synthesis
-nearly 80% of people depend on don to win.

Well, i think they banned protean for much less...just my opinion
 

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