Balanced Hackmons Viability Ranking

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hoopa-U still is pretty powerful mon even with the imposter proofness gone that has good offensive typing and ability to hit both sides of defense spectrum hard with many weird ways, whenever with mixed or psystrike.
So yeah, better place the guy in D.
Kinda shame, he was hard enough to use already
 
hooh.gif

Ok I would like to nominate Ho-oh for, C----->B- Rank.
First off what does ho-oh do in the meta and what can it run? Well it can run contrary effectively with stab v-create and dragon ascent, as well as draco meteor to bypass some common walls(giratina) or superpower for attack boosts, and to beat tyranitar-mega. Most teams in BH run hazard removal as well, so it doesn't need too much support, as well as most good BH teams having at least one Magic bouncer. Ho-oh can also run Magic guard sets to good use, meaning that two strong stabs (flare blitz+brave bird) give no recoil, and it gets stab on the very spammable sacred fire with an awesome 50% chance to burn. The two most common sets, so Magic guard and contrary, look something like this.

Magic guard:
Ho-Oh @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Whirlwind


This set can act as a decent ate spam check being non 2hkoed by any of the common ate attacks and their coverage, including Boomburst from mega Ray, and it resists fairy ate anyway (Diancie) it can then burn in retaliation making its job of walling even easier. It hits quite hard even without investment and is very handy for spreading burns with sacred fire. It is obviously also immune to ho-oh's most crippling weakness, stealth Rock, and can take advantage of hazards set up by your team with whirlwind, and I have been testing this set and it has proved to work well even on high ladder. I believe it has the ability to function with less support than is let on by is current ranking.


Contrary:
Ho-Oh @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Naughty/Adamant Nature (depends on draco or superpower)
- V-create
- Roost
- Superpower/Draco Meteor
- Dragon Ascent


This set functions as a sweeper as well as a wallbreaker, with v-create hitting very hard and it posses the tools to bypass some common walls, or common cores such as registeel+giratina. It works via accumulating speed boosts and defense via v-create before using appropriate coverage to smash it's counters. Simple but effective. Personally I prefer the Magic guard ho-oh but this works well too if you want a more offensive option.

So ho-oh essentially doesn't need as much support as is let on, but it still needs some why I have posted this essentially asking for a low b instead of mid c(so B- essentially) it can form a nice defensive core with Registeel and can work quite well on stall with the Magic guard set, while the contrary can be a nice glue mon. Have a nice day, and hopefully move ho-oh up :D
 
Last edited:
Hey everyone, this is my first post ever, so I´ll try not to post so stupidly. I would like to talk about two pokemon:

Groudon for B- -> B+ rank: I don´t see the reason why it is not higher. Well, I do, it depends on Red Orb, but anyways it had its greatest potential with Adaptability scarf when it used to be legal without Orb. Therefore, it can still spam insane V-Creates with STAB coverage Thousand Arrows/Precipice Blades/Earthquake. It outspeeds every of it walls (Audino-Mega, namely), ties Giratina and Ho-oh (in case you would use the latter as a check, wall), destroys common walls like Aegishlash or Registeel turns unstoppable after Shift Gear. With good sinergy, hazards, passers or pressure on the foe it can be a nightmare. Also it runs 100/160/90 defenses. They´re great to endure at least 2 hits before dieing and counterattack and can easily switch in into Knock-off´ers and much other Pokemon which will regret using a status move and not weaken it. Also it cuts off weather and checks Kyogre in a sort of way!

Gengar for A- -> A+: Gengar-Mega is not that popular, nor is its true potential well-acquainted. Mega-evolving and trapping-utility is an option which may take off-guard many unprepared teams. But I´m talking today about an offensive version: Gengar-Mega can put an enormous pressure on the foe´s team with a simple Judgement/secret Sword set. With a 130 base speed stat, it outspeeds almost any viable pokemon used in the metagame, pairing Mewtwo-Mega X and only being outsped notably by Mewtwo-Mega X. Apart from that, it literally destroys annoying walls, for instance, Giratina (even most defensive versions won´t survive 2 hits) or Aegislash, putting them in great danger and punishing any switch in. Sending in Gengar might sound risky, but it can actually take some hits or block them thanks to its two immunities along with its "unpoisonable" Poison type. It is even easier to do it with Magic Bounce, what nullifies several status-user Pokemon. It can´t also be OHKOed by common Diancie-Mega sets, but it can OHKO the -SpDef nature versions even running Timid. To sum up, there is almost nothing to block its attack (maybe Poiosn Heal Yveltal is the best) and, what is more relevant as for a reason, it can do pretty well by itself.
 
I support Groudon to B+. This thing is insane. With Red Orb, you'll need Flash Fire or a Fur Coat + resist (e. g. Fur Coat Giratina) to avoid the 2HKO from it's ridiculous STAB V-create under sun coming from a 180 base Attack (which hits 504 Attack when maxed out). It has a nice defensive typing especially with Desolate Land, which nullifies most Water-types (such as Kyogre as nngenis said, the classic Water + Fairy coverage can't hit Groudon, Water + Ice matches up a bit better but still loses). Groudon is not much worse after the Primal ban: it can still run the same Desolate Land sets, only missing the chance to get an item, such as Choice Band or Safety Goggles, and it lost some versatility, but still is a great threat (especially to fat teams) and a extremely powerful nuke.
Shouldn't raise higher though, as it tends to do worse vs. offense without a Choice Scarf (and then you lose the STAB V-create and the good defensive and offensive typing) and is weak to Spore (especially to Prankster Spore).

Gengar should not raise to A+, maybe A? I don't think it should get to A+ because its weakness to priority and Knock Off. Every single viable -ate 2HKOes Gengar with FakeSpeed, and if it's not Pixilate, then Gengar is 2HKOed even after a King's Shield drop. Knock Off also wrecks Gengar, and if it survives the attack, it will lose its STAB and the ability to beat Imposter.
However, Mold Breaker Gengar has a good matchup against the best Pokémon in the tier: Imposter Chansey, Fur Coat Chansey, Sturdinja, Giratina, Aegislash... it also 2HKOes Arceus, Dialga and Regigigas, but those will strike back KOing Gengar. Registeel is also 2HKOed by Secret Sword after a bit of prior damage, while Sludge Wave surprises Mega Audino, one of its common counters. After -ates are gone, it can set-up Shell Smash or even Tail Glow to clean the opposing team. Like Groudon, Gengar is really threatening especially to bulky builds, but also to more offensive teams after priority is gone.
 
I honestly think that KyuB (Kyurem-B) should be higher up in the ranking, despite the poor typing. If you put Refrigerate, a Custap Berry, ESpeed, and EXPLOSION, yup. That Explosion becomes a arctic nuke, able to severly dent or KO many threats (unless the cheap sturdy shedinja comes in), reaching a base power of about SEVEN-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-ONE. Ice is also a very good offensive type from what I see, and Refrigerate KyuB allows him to obliterate. The Custap Berry on this allows KyuB to explode whenever at low health, such as when the opponent is going to use ESpeed and try to take out KyuB. To conclude, I love KyuB in BH and he is a powerhouse from what I used.
 
Last edited:
The main issue with Kyu-b is that its simply outclassed by other -ate users like aerilate rayquaza and pixilate diancie, which sport higher speed, similar physical attack, and significantly higher special attack - this last one is especially important because it allows them to break through physical walls that kyu-b struggles with. Because of -ate clause, you can't run both kyu-b and one of these two on the same team, which means that kyu-b comes with a very significant opportunity cost. It's true that ice is an arguably better offensive type than fairy or dragon, but not so much so that it makes up for kyu-b's shortcomings. As well, the fact that kyu-b loses 1v1 against both Ray and diancie really doesnt help its case. Custap explosion is cute, but very risky - if the opponent imposters it, then you risk losing a Pokemon to their own explosion, as even bulky resists take a ton of damage from it. overall i feel that kyu-b is fine to stay where it is
 
Mamp said:
As well, the fact that kyu-b loses 1v1 against both Ray
Click to expand...

Actually...

4 SpA Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 358-423 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 217-256 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

-2 252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Rayquaza: 508-604 (144.7 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Standard Fridge Kyu-B checks standard Aerilate Mega-Ray under normal battle conditions even if Ray runs King's Shield. Kyu-B can't manually switch in except on predicted King's Shield but, once it's in, it wins. Especially if Kyu-B runs KS too. However, it does lose 1v1 vs Diancie except under unusual circumstances.

Not arguing to support Ledian here, despite having written the Kyu-B analysis, since, despite being quite powerful, it nor Kyu-W are as splashable as Mega-Diancie or Mega-Ray.
 
Mega Slowbro usually runs either Poison Heal or Soundproof. I personally think the PH set is outclassed by Kyogre but slowbro can wall mewtwo and groudon really well with PH. Soundproof is used as an ate wall since not many runs techno blast and without it you can't break it with fake out or extreme speed.

Unaware kinda died but I guess you could use giratina, registeel, audino, cress or lugia
 
The Guy Who Has Many Alts said:
Mega Slowbro usually runs either Poison Heal or Soundproof. I personally think the PH set is outclassed by Kyogre but slowbro can wall mewtwo and groudon really well with PH. Soundproof is used as an ate wall since not many runs techno blast and without it you can't break it with fake out or extreme speed.

Unaware kinda died but I guess you could use giratina, registeel, audino, cress or lugia
Click to expand...
ok thank you
what is a good counter for contrary and belly drum now?
 
Well you could probably use imposter chansey to counter contrary and belly drum, but you really can't wall contrary. Due to power creep even unboosted hits does a lot of damage, especially since the ev limit exists now. You used to be able to wall contrary since you would have mixed defenses but now you can't. Cresselia was probably the best unaware wall but now look at this

252 SpA Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 163-193 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you want to "wall" contrary, you need a prankster user with either topsy-turvy or destiny bond, pretty much.

Or the other way is to use immunities, like walling an overheat/draco meteor/v create contrary reshiram with flash fire Mega Audino
 
Imposter, Prankster, and -ate are all good answers to contrary/belly drum. Unaware is not 'dead', its just difficult to fit onto a team in the current metagame-the best options for unaware are probably giratina and mega audino, but registeel and arceus are both also solid options.
 
Orangutan said:
What does Mega Slowbro bring to make it B+?
Click to expand...
Mega Slowbro uses Soundproof and its titanic Defense to counter -ates, plus, it can check/counter some really powerful attackers such as Primal Groudon or Ho-Oh due to its typing + defensive stats, notably being one of the few counters to Primal Groudon (Fur Coat Giratina is the other option). However it struggles to check special attackers despite usually running specially defensive spreads, thus B+.
 
I also think Onix should at least be here, because when used with Eviolite and Fur Coat, it can reach a maximum of 1,380 Defense, making it a phenomenal Physical wall. Amnesia surprisingly works well on this as well, as once Onix gets THAT set up, it becomes a godly wall. Diamond Storm is pure amazing on this set, as Onix gets a boost in Defense 50% of the time. Recover works, too, so it can regain HP at nearly any time.
The set's only concerns are Onix's low speed, making him fall to Special attacks really easily, coupled with Onix's not-so-great-to-begin-with Special Defense AND its bad typing. Anyways, I think Onix should be at least C rank all because of Fur Coat.

Contrary Mega Rayquaza also works surprisingly well. V-Create, Superpower, Draco Meteor, and Dragon Ascent are just GODLY moves with Contrary, raising stats EVERY SINGLE TURN THEY HIT. Mother of Arceus, this turns Mega Ray into a crazy thing to even defeat, as it's capability for offensiveness and defensiveness just skyrockets so fast.
 
GodLedian said:
I also think Onix should at least be here, because when used with Eviolite and Fur Coat, it can reach a maximum of 1,380 Defense, making it a phenomenal Physical wall. Amnesia surprisingly works well on this as well, as once Onix gets THAT set up, it becomes a godly wall. Diamond Storm is pure amazing on this set, as Onix gets a boost in Defense 50% of the time. Recover works, too, so it can regain HP at nearly any time.
The set's only concerns are Onix's low speed, making him fall to Special attacks really easily, coupled with Onix's not-so-great-to-begin-with Special Defense AND its bad typing. Anyways, I think Onix should be at least C rank all because of Fur Coat.

Contrary Mega Rayquaza also works surprisingly well. V-Create, Superpower, Draco Meteor, and Dragon Ascent are just GODLY moves with Contrary, raising stats EVERY SINGLE TURN THEY HIT. Mother of Arceus, this turns Mega Ray into a crazy thing to even defeat, as it's capability for offensiveness and defensiveness just skyrockets so fast.
Click to expand...

Contrary is Demolished by Chansposter. Also Onix for D rank imo Z Rank y/y; just the fact it gets destroyed by all the -ate special attacks ever. A weakness to refridge is terrible; and pixiburst demolishes it. Onix also has pretty low HP and is completely outclassed by Giratina or Regirock.
 
Last edited:
GodLedian said:
I also think Onix should at least be here, because when used with Eviolite and Fur Coat, it can reach a maximum of 1,380 Defense, making it a phenomenal Physical wall. Amnesia surprisingly works well on this as well, as once Onix gets THAT set up, it becomes a godly wall. Diamond Storm is pure amazing on this set, as Onix gets a boost in Defense 50% of the time. Recover works, too, so it can regain HP at nearly any time.
The set's only concerns are Onix's low speed, making him fall to Special attacks really easily, coupled with Onix's not-so-great-to-begin-with Special Defense AND its bad typing. Anyways, I think Onix should be at least C rank all because of Fur Coat.

Contrary Mega Rayquaza also works surprisingly well. V-Create, Superpower, Draco Meteor, and Dragon Ascent are just GODLY moves with Contrary, raising stats EVERY SINGLE TURN THEY HIT. Mother of Arceus, this turns Mega Ray into a crazy thing to even defeat, as it's capability for offensiveness and defensiveness just skyrockets so fast.
Click to expand...
CorruptedFlame said:
Contrary is Demolished by Chansposter. Also Onix for D rank imo; just the fact it gets destroyed by all the -ate special attacks ever. A weakness to refridge is terrible; and pixiburst demolishes it. Onix also has pretty low HP and is completely outclassed by Giratina or Regirock.
Click to expand...

No, not even D-Rank. There really is no good reason to run Onix over Regirock. Ever. Onix is piss weak, has horrible speed, hp, and sp.def. The only niche over Regirock is Tarrows STAB and slightly higher speed but in no way is that ever making up for the fact that this is Onix. Regirock is better in every possible role for Onix.


Don't use Onix it's a meme.
 
Last edited:
Kingslayer2779 said:
The only niche over Regirock is Tarrows STAB and slightly higher speed.
Click to expand...

0 Atk Onix Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 58-69 (17 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO

0 Atk Regirock Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 73-86 (21.4 - 25.2%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

It doesn't even have that niche.

And on speed...

193 - Skarmory, Onix (0+)
190 - Heatran (0)
186 - Scizor-M, Banette-M (0)
178 - Tyranitar-M (0)
176 - Skarmory, Onix (0)
171 - Aegislash S (0+)
160 - Darmanitan-Z, Blissey (0+)
156 - Aegislash S (0)
149 - Chansey, Registeel, Regirock, Aggron-M, Audino-M, Mawile-M (0+)
146 - Darmanitan-Z, Blissey (0)
138 - Chansey (8), Ampharos-M (0+)
136 - Chansey, Registeel, Regirock, Aggron-M, Audino-M, Mawile-M (0)

It outspeeds a few things, but nothing that you really want to try to outspeed except maybe T-Tar and Heatran with some investment Who would just scoff at Onix anyway. So, while it's faster, it's not significantly enough, IMO, for that really to even matter. It's still waaaaay below average and is in speed tiers where you might want to "out-slow" in an attempt to safely pivot to something else anyway, so its speed is arguably a hindrance.


I mean, yeah, Onix can work. But, I could make stuff like Jumpluff sweep or wall threats if I put my mind to it. And just because something can work doesn't mean it's either viable or not-outclassed.
 
Im bringing this up again.
Audino-Mega from B -> B+
It can be a great special wall or defensive wall depending which EVs are put into it. Its capable of fulfilling a wide variety of support roles and can be used successfully with a multitude of abilities such as mbounce, prankster, fur coat, or PH. Also, its PH set can somewhat check -ate depending on its moveset, and its great typing allows it to completely wall Mega Gengar unless they run a poison move (which they rarely do).
Click to expand...
Here's some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-296007527
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-295998394
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-304479244
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-304132748
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-304120601
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-306546182
 
highlighter said:
Im bringing this up again.
Here's some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-296007527
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-295998394
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-304479244
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-304132748
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-304120601
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-306546182
Click to expand...
Yeah I agree with this, I don't know why I didn't do it before. I'm also downgrading Hoopa-U to D rank because of its lost imposter-proofness. I'd say we should discuss Gengar and Groudon a bit more before changing.
 
Yeah move Audino up imo, I've been slapping it on all my stall teams recently just because it counters Mega Gengar and unboosted Mega Mewtwo Y, two mons that otherwise are extremely difficult to deal with. Fur Coat counters -ates as well. Is a much better option than Xerneas as a bulky Fairy, so it doesn't have much competition as other common walls are wrecked by Ghost + Fighting coverage aka match up horribly against Mega Gengar, and Yveltal doesn't have enough bulk to counter MMY.

Also Darm-Zen is still ranked?
 
 
Nominating Swadloon from Unranked -> D Rank.

Swadloon fits the definition of D Rank perfectly. While it easily counter all Primal Groudon sets that run only STABs, it really can't do much else besides disrupting something with Spore once they switch Groudon out. While it can kill Shedinja that switch in with Leech Seed, almost anything can do that better. Swadloon is viable enough to be used on certain teams, but is generally outclassed by other things, making it fit right in to D rank.
 
AnybodyAgrees said:
Nominating Swadloon from Unranked -> D Rank.

Swadloon fits the definition of D Rank perfectly. While it easily counter all Primal Groudon sets that run only STABs, it really can't do much else besides disrupting something with Spore once they switch Groudon out. While it can kill Shedinja that switch in with Leech Seed, almost anything can do that better. Swadloon is viable enough to be used on certain teams, but is generally outclassed by other things, making it fit right in to D rank.
Click to expand...
anything swadloon can do is done better by fur coat giratina - it takes about the same amount from groudons attacks, and accomplishes far more than swadloon does otherwise. it also isnt crippled by knock off the way that swadloon is, nor is it weak to stealth rock - i think that swadloon should remain unranked.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top