Thousand Arrows is SE STAB on Chansey, whereas V-Create is resisted.
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Ladder Balanced Hackmons
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Meh, IL was just unprepared for assistdon so he lost, the same way that if he would have battled a normal team with mega ray and wasn't prepared for aerilate he would've lost or that any team unprepared for imposter or sturdninja will lose to them. Assistdon isn't broken, it's just a rather new thing and ppl are unprepared.
I personaly never saw an assist team winning a bh tourney despite seeing an assist team in every bh tourney. It's not op.
The only thing i see in this team that could deserve a ban is chatter. I see so many mega ray running chatter outside of assisteam who win battles just from hax and i find that rather pathetic. Or even other pokemons than megaray, I've seen chatter registeel or stuff like that that just rely completely on hax.
I used to run teeter dance+discharge serene grace meganectric back in XY. Wonder if parafusion works better now that Chatter does the thing.
If anything is getting banned in BH, I'd say it should be chatter. Chatter is one of the worst attacks to plague this metagame. It's super annoying, is a beast move on Rayquaza, and it doubles as a Shedinja remover without being useless and gimmicky. Sure, Shedinja only has a 50% of being killed by chatter, so you could say its not a reliable sheddy counter, but at the same time Shedinja baton passes/parting shots out of infestation and leech seed, can hold lum berry to avoid status, and can hold safety goggles to be immune to weather and spore.
I fucking hate chatter.
I fucking hate chatter.
I wouldn't be opposed to Chatter, since it's in the haxy vein of Evasion. The move is normally kept in check by seriously low distribution and only on bad mons at that. But here we can put a move that inflicts 100% Confusion + damage + ignores subs + ignores Magic Bounce (the two main defenses against confusion spam) on anything.
I mean, here, just look at these two.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-102041570
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-102034875
These replays are old, yes, and my opponents weren't great but... I was using six friggin' Chatots. Chatot has no business taking on even bottom of the barrel teams in BH. But even with crapmons like Chatot I could just Chatterhax my way to victory. I could only imagine a team of Rayquaza's abusing the move since they can actually hurt things.
I mean, here, just look at these two.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-102041570
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-102034875
These replays are old, yes, and my opponents weren't great but... I was using six friggin' Chatots. Chatot has no business taking on even bottom of the barrel teams in BH. But even with crapmons like Chatot I could just Chatterhax my way to victory. I could only imagine a team of Rayquaza's abusing the move since they can actually hurt things.
I really disagree with a Chatter ban. The move isn't at all broken, it's just obnoxious. Look at the arguments that have been presented for banning it (I added some bold):
• "Beast move on Rayquaza" — So are a lot of moves. Gale Wings Rayquaza with Aeroblast or Oblivion Wing is also annoying, just for different reasons.
• "Shedinja remover without being useless and gimmicky" — Lum Shed still beats this provided it doesn't have to switch in to Chatter. I'd also like to point out that status, Leech Seed, Curse, hazards, partial trapping, etc., are not "useless and gimmicky."
tl;dr Don't ban something just because it's annoying.
A lot of strategies rely on hax, like No Guard Mega Mewtwo Y. In fact, I'd say No Guard MMY is roughly comparable to Chatter Mega Ray. Both inflict status and do damage simultaneously, and can be a pain to take down. But that doesn't mean we need to ban Zap Cannon or Dynamic Punch or anything. (I know Mega Ray can use an ability slot, but really, what are you going to use besides Gale Wings? And even then, that loses to -ates if you don't have King's Shield, and still can if you do.)
• "Super annoying" — that isn't justification to ban something. I find Prankster Spore super annoying.
• "Beast move on Rayquaza" — So are a lot of moves. Gale Wings Rayquaza with Aeroblast or Oblivion Wing is also annoying, just for different reasons.
• "Shedinja remover without being useless and gimmicky" — Lum Shed still beats this provided it doesn't have to switch in to Chatter. I'd also like to point out that status, Leech Seed, Curse, hazards, partial trapping, etc., are not "useless and gimmicky."
This post makes some good points, I concede. Chatter is unlike any move we've had to deal with in the past, and it certainly is very difficult to stop. But I really don't think we want to set the precedent of banning moves because they're annoying. I know we already have Evasion Clause, but that's a whole class of moves. (And I don't think Evasion Clause has really done much for the metagame, but I digress.)
tl;dr Don't ban something just because it's annoying.
I will admit my argument totally failed. I was trying to say something similar to what Rumour said, but i was tired and lost my ability to create genuine and understandable argument. But i felt that Smog needed to know of how much i hated chatter, so i posted regardless.
Still, even though i failed, that does not give you the right to paraphrase. Not once did i say leech seed, curse, hazards, partial trapping, etc, were useless and gimicky (in fact those are great moves that just happen to double as sheddy checks). Things that are gimmicky and useless are things like moldy pursuit and infestation.
Side note: Chatter is much more spammable (not sure if thats the right word) than status, since chatter does actual damage, so lum sheddy is much less safe from switching in if it has chatter as opposed to say toxic. And even if sheddy does get toxic'd, its not dead, sheddy can still act as a pivot somewhat, it can still endeavor something one last time, and is immune to sleep. But if sheddy gets chattered? Well, things arent looking too good for sheddy.
I think chatter is the best way to eliminate sheddy. Why? Sheddy can reliably pivot out of infestation/related trapping moves, leech seed, curse, and status (excluding paralysis and sleep). Hazards can be removed, and moldy pursuit is incedibly specialized and is ONLY useful for eliminating sheddy, plus it cant kill sheddy if its behind a sub (a rare situation but it has happened to me before). However, sheddy cannot reliably pivot out of chatter unless lum berry, and can kill sheddys behind a sub. And the best part about chatter is its obscurity, (unlike moldy pursuit) anything could potentially run chatter, you would have no clue it has chatter, and it has incredible utiliyy outside of buttraping sheddy. I mean, i have faced contrary MMY and regenerator Registeel with chatter before.
For these reasons, and reasons others have stated (Rumour and motherlove) i think chatter just has to go. Im not primarily banning it because its 'super annoying', i want it banned because it is guaranteed to hit he opponent, guarantees the opponent will only do something 50% of the time, it allows for easy set up and wall/stall breaking, does damage, can be slapped on basically ANY pokemon without 4MSS, and kills sheddy.
Can prankster spore, gale wings aeroblast or oblivion wing fill these categories Uselesscrab? Didnt think so.
Edit: Now THIS is an argument lol
Edit 2: rip Uselesscrab
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Chatter might be annoying and has lot of perks but however its still 65 power move, so when you compare that to perks of lets say dynamicpunch, boomburst, steam eruption, thousand arrows, inferno, sacred fire...
...Does it really seem THAT bad?
Sure you get confusion, which is annoying, but not as crippling as burn and paralyzis that unlike confusion, do not go away by switching, nor cut your speed/atk stats, or being hit seriously hard behind sub making it a waste of use.
Galewings Chatter using mega ray isn't nuking your team with boomburst, chatter using MMY most likely isnt crippling half of your team with dynamic, inferno and zap cannon.
Chatter sure as hell didn't do as drastic effects as makeing levitran useless like thousand arrows did
And if all else fails, remember the wonderful ability of shield dust that makes all flinch, nuzzle and the like useless, or the wonderful soundproof that also makes sure the said boomburst ray doesnt nuke your team either.
Its a low power move with annoying effect that is a soundmove. Wow, so ban worthy.
Not like we have moves that are nearly unresistable, deal insane damage by passing sub that get buffed by ate, moves that deal high damage with high success of adding status as bonus
...Does it really seem THAT bad?
Sure you get confusion, which is annoying, but not as crippling as burn and paralyzis that unlike confusion, do not go away by switching, nor cut your speed/atk stats, or being hit seriously hard behind sub making it a waste of use.
Galewings Chatter using mega ray isn't nuking your team with boomburst, chatter using MMY most likely isnt crippling half of your team with dynamic, inferno and zap cannon.
Chatter sure as hell didn't do as drastic effects as makeing levitran useless like thousand arrows did
And if all else fails, remember the wonderful ability of shield dust that makes all flinch, nuzzle and the like useless, or the wonderful soundproof that also makes sure the said boomburst ray doesnt nuke your team either.
Its a low power move with annoying effect that is a soundmove. Wow, so ban worthy.
Not like we have moves that are nearly unresistable, deal insane damage by passing sub that get buffed by ate, moves that deal high damage with high success of adding status as bonus
This has really diverged from the point we were discussing, I guess i shouldn't even have mentionned chatter in the first place. Chatter and confusion in general is just something that annoys me in any meta. I'm generaly against bans in bh and I never said I wanted chatter banned. I just brought it up because to me that's how silly assist teams sound. And I think UC provided us with the best argument here.
Err Chansey is normal type Piccolo. But yeah i do get the idea V-create is resisted by some things Thousand Arrows hits SE, like Ho-Oh and Tyranitar.
Speaking of Ttar:
252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes Ttar doesn't have defensive investment but this is still a bulky resist getting 2hkoed. Regirock also needs defensive investment and can't do anything back just look at this:
4 Atk Regirock Diamond Storm vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 72-85 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO.
"Yeah but Kygore resists V-create and can OHKO Groudon easily"- People reading this post
252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Kyogre: 238-281 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
i'm done. Primal Groudon is so broken its disgusting. The fact that we need to run Fur Coat on resists just wall this stupid thing shows just how broken it is. Its Stabs hit 99.9% of the metagame unresisted and its developed its own play style. I know people are against Pokemon bans but this is just absurd. Not to mention we have yet to touch upon Tinted Lens and Adapt Primal Groudon. And do note that limiting Assist would do nothing to limit Groudon teams. Prankster Copycat exists and could free up teambuilding and allow Groudon teams to run more flexible sets. Its probably much better then Assist actually. I see little to no justification for Primal Groudon being allowed in the meta. This is not Gen 5 Balanced Hackmons were the meta could balance itself out. This is Gen 6 ORAS Balanced Hackmons and quite frankly its unbalanced, overcentralized and just a mess. Unless someone brings strong evidence that it isn't Primal Groudon that is the center of the problem my mind is made up. Primal Groudon needs to be banned from BH.
Imposter chansey that is.
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Your argument doesn't do much but to indicate that Chatter is a really good way of beating Shedinja. And even on that matter, you make some questionable points.
For one, I would argue that Shedinja that's been Chattered is more useful than Shedinja that's been Toxiced. It can just switch out and come back in later after the Chatter user's been eliminated or severely weakened. Poisoned Shedinja has a lifespan of literally one turn.
Also, partial trapping includes Infestation, which by the way is not at all useless; it's a good move on Soundproof Perish Song users, and any attacker can run it to beat Shedinja if you don't want to deal with Magma Storm's inaccuracy. Moldy Pursuit is a bit more specialized, but it's the only move guaranteed to kill (non-Focus Sash) Shedinja 100% of the time. Chatter has a mere 50% chance.
Only in your very last paragraph do you even mention something other than its ability to kill Shedinja. And in that paragraph, you do a good job of outlining reasons why Chatter is useful — but not why it's broken.
I also don't see why you felt the need to edit in a discourteous ending to your post. We're just having a discussion here.
Not being active at the moment (though that'll change soonish), I don't feel strongly on the matter of Chatter (or Groudon-P, 1k Arrows, Assist, etc.). But, my issue with Chatter would be similar to why Evasion got the boot: if you don't have the three specific abilities that shut it down, then a Chatter-spamming team will cause the match to devolve into a dice rolling contest where the winner will be determined by whose prayers RNGeus decided to answer. It's not "overpowered" or anything like that, but rather a bit bad for the metagame by potentially making matches being determined more by luck rather than skill. Add that the best user is also one of the strongest attackers in the game, also faster than about ~2/3rds of the tier, and often already prepares to deal with Soundproof mons and, well, yeah.
Also, nobody runs Shield Dust or Own Tempo. Soundproof is pretty much restricted to -ate checks and Perish Trappers... who Ray is often already prepared to handle.
So, why not complain about No Guard Ytwo? That thing is a pain in the ass, but it gets completely shut down by common things, such as PH Giratina, is unable to burn/paralyze certain other common threats, most notably Groudon-P, and is a huge Imposter liability since, unlike Chatter, an Imposter grabbing a hold of that can burn/paralyze one or more members of your team, something significant since a lot of people didn't seem to be running a cleric last time I poked the ladder. It also has very limited PP, which can be depleted rather quickly by smart play. And it's also stopped by Substitute.
Serene Flinch Beat-up? The best user, Deo-S, has ass for attacking stats and bulk and struggles to break anything with Regen or PH or is just plain bulky. The set also just flat-out loses to King Shield and priority abuse, both of which are extremely common, and, even with multi-hit, has trouble breaking certain Substitutes. The best STAB users are Weaville, who dies as soon as you poke it, and Gyarados, who needs a speed boost to get anywhere with such a set or rely on the less flinchy and less damaging Water Shuriken.
What about Swagger and all that? If it weren't for Magic Bounce being extremely common, making the standard suite of confusion-inducing moves risky, then yeah, I would feel it'd be worth mentioning. I've used Swagplay before in BH on a few occasions and it pretty much just flat out dies to Magic Bounce or substitute, especially Prankster sub. It's also a huge liability if you happen to Swag an -ate priority abuser who is holding a Lum Berry, unless you're using Unaware. But if you are, then pretty much everything else simply subs up on you.
Also, nobody runs Shield Dust or Own Tempo. Soundproof is pretty much restricted to -ate checks and Perish Trappers... who Ray is often already prepared to handle.
So, why not complain about No Guard Ytwo? That thing is a pain in the ass, but it gets completely shut down by common things, such as PH Giratina, is unable to burn/paralyze certain other common threats, most notably Groudon-P, and is a huge Imposter liability since, unlike Chatter, an Imposter grabbing a hold of that can burn/paralyze one or more members of your team, something significant since a lot of people didn't seem to be running a cleric last time I poked the ladder. It also has very limited PP, which can be depleted rather quickly by smart play. And it's also stopped by Substitute.
Serene Flinch Beat-up? The best user, Deo-S, has ass for attacking stats and bulk and struggles to break anything with Regen or PH or is just plain bulky. The set also just flat-out loses to King Shield and priority abuse, both of which are extremely common, and, even with multi-hit, has trouble breaking certain Substitutes. The best STAB users are Weaville, who dies as soon as you poke it, and Gyarados, who needs a speed boost to get anywhere with such a set or rely on the less flinchy and less damaging Water Shuriken.
What about Swagger and all that? If it weren't for Magic Bounce being extremely common, making the standard suite of confusion-inducing moves risky, then yeah, I would feel it'd be worth mentioning. I've used Swagplay before in BH on a few occasions and it pretty much just flat out dies to Magic Bounce or substitute, especially Prankster sub. It's also a huge liability if you happen to Swag an -ate priority abuser who is holding a Lum Berry, unless you're using Unaware. But if you are, then pretty much everything else simply subs up on you.
The last bit was totally uncalled for, so i do apologise for that. I was literally writing that response at 2 in the morning so i was unaware that a LOT of the stuff i wrote was not worth noting/borderline mean. From now on i wont post things after midnight to prevent arrogant rants like i posted previously haha.
When you said partial trapping i thought you meant stuff like shadow tag. I dont know why i thought that since sheddy is immune to shadow tag and arena trap is nonexistant. I was tired i guess.
I forgot to mention chatter isnt a guaranteed hit on everything, soundproof users are immune to chatter, which is useful since the worst abuser of chatter mray
Alright, sorry to cut in here, but I recently got back into BH and I've been experimenting with some of the lesser-known options made available in Gen 6.
Here's a set I've been using, and what I'd like to discuss:
Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- ExtremeSpeed
- Endeavor
- Poison Fang
-U-turn* Volt Switch
considering now changing U-turn to Volt Switch to avoid any contact, but that seems like a waste to me. Inputs? Seems like VS ain't wastin'. Now that I think about it, Volt Switch makes a lot more sense. It's just that, you know, STAB is so tantalizing and all... well, in a tier like BH, you can't afford to take risks, and a U-turn off of 90 attack hits like an inflatable pool full of cotton anyway.
edit: thx
Here's a set I've been using, and what I'd like to discuss:
Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- ExtremeSpeed
- Endeavor
- Poison Fang
-
- What are your opinions on Poison Fang? It was buffed in XY, now having a 50% chance of inflicting the target with toxic poison. Although 50% seems uncertain and 50BP seems low, this move has been doing me some great service in my ongoing ladder adventure. It avoids the potentially fatal situation of having a Toxic Magic Bounced back, and it can surprise Ghost-type switch-ins like Giratina (and other sheds) with poison when they're expecting an Endeavor. It's also useful against Imposters, as, with a Lum Berry, Shed is twice as likely to poison first. After that, you know, TEAMMATES!
- On the lack of Magic Coat: I feel like the move itself has become quite outdated on Shed, probably because it's so amazingly useful that everyone expects it. Maybe I was using it the wrong way, but I found MC to be a waste of a moveslot most of the time. Nobody's going to use Toxic or Will-O-Wisp on Shed, because they don't want to risk it getting bounced back. Nowadays, peoples' preferred Shedinja (re?)-extermination methods seem to be secondary effects, Rocky Helmet, or Pursuit Mold Breaker, things that Magic Coat isn't going to help me with.
- Actually, yeah, those last two still terrify me. Pursuit Mold Breaker is THE #1 Shed-slayer. You just have to hope you can take one of the opponent's pokes down with Shedinja before it gets wrecked.
- ExtremeSpeed, in my opinion, > other priority in this scenario. After all, it's the most powerful option, and Shed needs all the power it can get to muscle through the 6% healed by Leftovers after an Endeavor. Water Shuriken seems promising as a replacement, but I have doubts as to its reliability.
- Finally,
U-turnVolt Switch and 0 Spe IVs/EVs. A slowU-turnVolt Switch is always useful, especially on something as "bulky" as Shed is. It's a safe* option to gain momentum and potentially set up a sweep for one of your teamies.
edit: thx
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Thanks for the input! I'm definitely using Volt Switch now- that makes a lot of sense. I can't stress enough how much Poison Fang has helped me so far, though. It sounds weird, but it actually does let Shed play a much more active rule in fighting the enemy team, to the point where it doesn't feel like a gimmick. Recycle is a good idea, but, in my experience, it seems like Shed doesn't die to status nearly enough to warrant its usage. Each turn counts a lot when one mistake could mean getting OHKOed in any number of ways. Maybe, if my Shed were geared to take a bit less of an active role on my team, it would be a better option.
Spore sounds O.K., but then I risk wasting my precious lum berry. That one berry is why status rarely kills my Shed: get ballsy, lose the lum, play it safe. Every game.
If you're going to rely on passive damage to try to kill with Shed, just use Infestation. You trap them, don't need to rely on RNG, have almost no immunities to worry about (Magic Guard is about it), and don't have to worry about accidentally giving a Poison Healer toxic status if you've managed to remove their orb earlier in the match.
Whirlpool is better, since it doesn't make contact. I know it has lower accuracy and some things are immune, but it's overall more useful.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
looking at the entire matter. and having made a few assistdon proof teams myself, i must say, i still feel like its too big of a problem in this metagame. however. i want everyone to level with me here, this is massive "are you idiotic" thinking here. however. one of my main points of banning assist don, is due to the fact that we have to run fur coaters which in this meta, is a complete ass ability. considering almost all physical attackers in the teir run special coverage, or are almost extinct. (raise your hand if you run physical protean before assistdon became a huge problem, and when oras came out already) now, at first, this will come out as "most recent thing is broken" kind of deal, but now i want to raise a few statements on assistdon. and feel free to disagree and attack me on this:
what makes assistdon so overkill? well, theres the obvious answer: priority 90 stab move that gets perfect coverage bh wise. well, let us look beyond that way of thinking. and ask what aspect about assistdon makes it overkill. "but you allready said why" actually. no. i didn't. aspect as you may or may not know, means "a way in which a thing may be viewed or regarded". and i came up with an answer. which may complex or ASSIST in solving the problem :> (sorry, had too) this is a common occurance in many things. when you fill something a little too much(a glass of water for example), the object starts to erupt, causing a spillage. and now look at bh? how many THREATS (i mean the worst of the worst btw) do we have in the meta? in total we have atespam, shedinja, imposter, protean, contrary, and so on, some of which need similar checks, but otherwise all have variable checks and counters that NEED to be at least looked upon on your team. and now we have a new one. a new one with the destructive power of the previously mentioned. however...this forces us to yet again, prepare for ANOTHER super threatening pokemon one that requires a NEW counter to make, since none of our current threat counters come CLOSE to countering pdon. causing the meta to "spill". now, with my recent outbursts, even i don't feel like i deserve to offer a solution of the matter, but we are all suffering to find a equal ground on this. and i come to offer some insight
honestly. assistspam needs to be nerfed/banned one way or another, we are talking about a strategy that is impossible to stop without fur coat. as all shedinja can do is baton pass out, or get outplayed on a spiky sheild/chatter hax/mold breaker. fur coat is a viable ability yes, but other then assist spam, it has next to 0 niche in the current metagame. and enless we keep banning shit until fur coat becomes viable enough that its ran more, then i say fur coat is no reason to keep assistdon in.
actions we can do:
ban assist: this one is often turned down due to the fact that assist isn't broken. however, in BH standards, they technically have no evidence. "groudon is the only one who is op with this and thus it is not broken" well, i dont recall huge power being banned because arceus was running it. ate wasn't nerfed because kyurem black was tearing up the meta. BH's "thing" is that its not the pokemon, its the ability and moves that help the pokemon. regigigas ran protean before mega mewtwo was legal, and it was no less threatening. and if we cant ban prankster or the pokemon, then obviously the assist needs to go. assist isn't broken because anything can use it effectively, assist is broken because it helps primal groudon/regular groudon become stronger then it allready is.
ban Thousand arro-HOLD ON, HEAR ME OUT- now. before the ev limit/primaldon, arrows wasnt too big of a problem, it was a threat, but it wasn't threatening. the bulk of the meta could allow even frail sweepers live a tarrows with protean mewtwo x, which is saying something. now, we dont have that. what we have is a super delicate meta, full of frail pokemon, of which almost require us to run a steel/rock type to stop ates(now you know the second reason why i mentioned the above statement about threats), and to make matters worse, we got a perfect abuser. tarrows is not like it was last gen. its so much better suited for the metagame atm, TOO much better, and i feel like this is the correct way to go.
ban primal groudon: this isn't happening because verbatim says so. on top of that its not even that op. too slow and too specially defensive weak, which is a HUGE letdown(remember what i said about physical pokemon running special coverage or not existing atm? yeah.) of course, if verbatim changes his mind, and makes 3 exceptions, groudon, ray, and ogre(before you question myself, the only reason PHogre is dead is because ray ohko's it), then all said is done, and i will probably make a more detailed post on my opinion on why groudon ban would be good. and then we solved the problem-except then we have to deal with regular groudon, which is just as viable with assist.
i apologise for the longg post. but i figured seeing how my last couple of "argument" posts have been solely on attacking innocent opinions, and beating my own chest of cockyness, i felt i needed to redeem myself with some good 'ol fashionedguile lcass logic. no attacking, no anger. just...a family man and his way of thinking.
what makes assistdon so overkill? well, theres the obvious answer: priority 90 stab move that gets perfect coverage bh wise. well, let us look beyond that way of thinking. and ask what aspect about assistdon makes it overkill. "but you allready said why" actually. no. i didn't. aspect as you may or may not know, means "a way in which a thing may be viewed or regarded". and i came up with an answer. which may complex or ASSIST in solving the problem :> (sorry, had too) this is a common occurance in many things. when you fill something a little too much(a glass of water for example), the object starts to erupt, causing a spillage. and now look at bh? how many THREATS (i mean the worst of the worst btw) do we have in the meta? in total we have atespam, shedinja, imposter, protean, contrary, and so on, some of which need similar checks, but otherwise all have variable checks and counters that NEED to be at least looked upon on your team. and now we have a new one. a new one with the destructive power of the previously mentioned. however...this forces us to yet again, prepare for ANOTHER super threatening pokemon one that requires a NEW counter to make, since none of our current threat counters come CLOSE to countering pdon. causing the meta to "spill". now, with my recent outbursts, even i don't feel like i deserve to offer a solution of the matter, but we are all suffering to find a equal ground on this. and i come to offer some insight
honestly. assistspam needs to be nerfed/banned one way or another, we are talking about a strategy that is impossible to stop without fur coat. as all shedinja can do is baton pass out, or get outplayed on a spiky sheild/chatter hax/mold breaker. fur coat is a viable ability yes, but other then assist spam, it has next to 0 niche in the current metagame. and enless we keep banning shit until fur coat becomes viable enough that its ran more, then i say fur coat is no reason to keep assistdon in.
actions we can do:
ban assist: this one is often turned down due to the fact that assist isn't broken. however, in BH standards, they technically have no evidence. "groudon is the only one who is op with this and thus it is not broken" well, i dont recall huge power being banned because arceus was running it. ate wasn't nerfed because kyurem black was tearing up the meta. BH's "thing" is that its not the pokemon, its the ability and moves that help the pokemon. regigigas ran protean before mega mewtwo was legal, and it was no less threatening. and if we cant ban prankster or the pokemon, then obviously the assist needs to go. assist isn't broken because anything can use it effectively, assist is broken because it helps primal groudon/regular groudon become stronger then it allready is.
ban Thousand arro-HOLD ON, HEAR ME OUT- now. before the ev limit/primaldon, arrows wasnt too big of a problem, it was a threat, but it wasn't threatening. the bulk of the meta could allow even frail sweepers live a tarrows with protean mewtwo x, which is saying something. now, we dont have that. what we have is a super delicate meta, full of frail pokemon, of which almost require us to run a steel/rock type to stop ates(now you know the second reason why i mentioned the above statement about threats), and to make matters worse, we got a perfect abuser. tarrows is not like it was last gen. its so much better suited for the metagame atm, TOO much better, and i feel like this is the correct way to go.
ban primal groudon: this isn't happening because verbatim says so. on top of that its not even that op. too slow and too specially defensive weak, which is a HUGE letdown(remember what i said about physical pokemon running special coverage or not existing atm? yeah.) of course, if verbatim changes his mind, and makes 3 exceptions, groudon, ray, and ogre(before you question myself, the only reason PHogre is dead is because ray ohko's it), then all said is done, and i will probably make a more detailed post on my opinion on why groudon ban would be good. and then we solved the problem-except then we have to deal with regular groudon, which is just as viable with assist.
i apologise for the longg post. but i figured seeing how my last couple of "argument" posts have been solely on attacking innocent opinions, and beating my own chest of cockyness, i felt i needed to redeem myself with some good 'ol fashioned
Whirlpool is better on Sturdinja. For trapping and killing with Endeavor. Also, I prefer Feint over ESpeed. Both of these moves allow you to deal with PH users and Spiky Shield respectively, which are the biggest threats to Sturdinja in the current Meta.
The last move and item are a bit of a drag. You can use LumCycle for Status, Sash for Mold Breakers. I myself prefer Goggles, since I seem to face a lot of Weather in the top ladder. Spore immunity can also help you gain a one up on unsuspecting Pranksters. VSwitch is also a wonderful move, but watch out for Mold Breaker Groudons (Don't worry, there aren't too many).
I don't feel too strong about Poison Fang. If anything, I'd go for Sacred Fire myself.
The last move and item are a bit of a drag. You can use LumCycle for Status, Sash for Mold Breakers. I myself prefer Goggles, since I seem to face a lot of Weather in the top ladder. Spore immunity can also help you gain a one up on unsuspecting Pranksters. VSwitch is also a wonderful move, but watch out for Mold Breaker Groudons (Don't worry, there aren't too many).
I don't feel too strong about Poison Fang. If anything, I'd go for Sacred Fire myself.
Personally I'm in favor of banning Assist, as I think it has the least collateral damage. Assist isn't used in any legitimate team, it's only used in the PGroudon spam bullshit team.
As for whether it deserves to be banned, I absolutely think it does. Anything that requires an inordinate amount of otherwise useless answers (Fur Coats) and is otherwise unbeatable... yea, get it out of here. It's not like it's a hard team to play either. I've gotten to the point where I'm just quitting if I see 3+ PGroudons on team preview. It's not worth my time to play against bullshit.
Alright, sorry to cut in here, but I recently got back into BH and I've been experimenting with some of the lesser-known options made available in Gen 6.
Here's a set I've been using, and what I'd like to discuss:
Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- ExtremeSpeed
- Endeavor
- Poison Fang
-U-turn* Volt Switch
*"Safe": Do any of you experienced BH ladder-wranglers know how Shed can make Rocky Helmet less of a problem? That item is possibly the biggest threat this set faces. Good players often carry one RH-mon to screw with the endless Sheds which fill (plague?) the ladder. It forces me to be extremely, even detrimentally, cautious until I have a good idea how the opponent's team works. I'm
- What are your opinions on Poison Fang? It was buffed in XY, now having a 50% chance of inflicting the target with toxic poison. Although 50% seems uncertain and 50BP seems low, this move has been doing me some great service in my ongoing ladder adventure. It avoids the potentially fatal situation of having a Toxic Magic Bounced back, and it can surprise Ghost-type switch-ins like Giratina (and other sheds) with poison when they're expecting an Endeavor. It's also useful against Imposters, as, with a Lum Berry, Shed is twice as likely to poison first. After that, you know, TEAMMATES!
- On the lack of Magic Coat: I feel like the move itself has become quite outdated on Shed, probably because it's so amazingly useful that everyone expects it. Maybe I was using it the wrong way, but I found MC to be a waste of a moveslot most of the time. Nobody's going to use Toxic or Will-O-Wisp on Shed, because they don't want to risk it getting bounced back. Nowadays, peoples' preferred Shedinja (re?)-extermination methods seem to be secondary effects, Rocky Helmet, or Pursuit Mold Breaker, things that Magic Coat isn't going to help me with.
- Actually, yeah, those last two still terrify me. Pursuit Mold Breaker is THE #1 Shed-slayer. You just have to hope you can take one of the opponent's pokes down with Shedinja before it gets wrecked.
- ExtremeSpeed, in my opinion, > other priority in this scenario. After all, it's the most powerful option, and Shed needs all the power it can get to muscle through the 6% healed by Leftovers after an Endeavor. Water Shuriken seems promising as a replacement, but I have doubts as to its reliability.
- Finally,
U-turnVolt Switch and 0 Spe IVs/EVs. A slowU-turnVolt Switch is always useful, especially on something as "bulky" as Shed is. It's a safe* option to gain momentum and potentially set up a sweep for one of your teamies.consideringnow changing U-turn to Volt Switch to avoid any contact,but that seems like a waste to me.Inputs? Seems like VS ain't wastin'. Now that I think about it, Volt Switch makes a lot more sense. It's just that, you know, STAB is so tantalizing and all... well, in a tier like BH, you can't afford to take risks, and a U-turn off of 90 attack hits like an inflatable pool full of cotton anyway.
edit: thx
Switching to Ice Shard will save this set from Rocky Helmet. Yes it is quite weak compared to Extremespeed but it usually ends up being worth it. You can attack without fear of Spiky Shield or Rocky Helmet and Ice Shard does have decent coverage and no immunities. Feint is nice for Spiky Shield but dies to Rocky Helmet and is weak. Having less + 1 instead of +2 is a non issue, u shouldn't need it since everything that kills Shed is 0 or Mold Breaker. One final thing is Baton Pass is 100% the best pivot move for Shed. The damage from U-turn and Volt Switch will never really help you, and Volt Switch is trapped by Groudon which is a huge issue considering he is half the meta right now. Parting Shot is nice but can lead into unfortunate situations if your opponent sends in Magic Bounce. Baton Pass is best because it never fails even if it has no secondary effects and carries Infestation and Leech seed.
This is just an asinine and stupid tactic, but it drives people to forfeiting.
Not Nice Thingy 1 (Deoxys-Defense) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Magic Guard/multiscale/fur coat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Recycle
- Slack Off
- Heal Bell
- Block
PP stall makes them either forfiet, or lose off of struggle.
I know it is just a stupid tactic, but it is fun, and funny to run!
Not Nice Thingy 1 (Deoxys-Defense) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Magic Guard/multiscale/fur coat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Recycle
- Slack Off
- Heal Bell
- Block
PP stall makes them either forfiet, or lose off of struggle.
I know it is just a stupid tactic, but it is fun, and funny to run!
MAMP
MAMP!
This set is banned under endless battle clause.