Ladder Balanced Hackmons

[E4 Flint]

DinaIsha You're overreacting and blowing things up way out of proportion. This isn't the first time Moody and Stored Power have been mentioned. They've been brought up since Gen V.

First, yes, I say "the meta will adapt." Because, if Moody became big, it would. Why is this important? Everything that's been banned thus far, or is currently being suspected, the meta attempted to adapt to. But either the adaptations weren't enough and the thing didn't care (Huge Power, Parental Bond, etc.) or the thing out-adapted the adaptations, constantly staying one step ahead and requiring different adaptations to handle it, which it then out-adapts (-ate and Protean are doing this). We've had lots of cancer sets come and go and the meta adapted to deal with them and shut them down: Lightningrod Gengar, Protean Deo-A, Doom Desire Diagla + Magnet Pull Diancie, and even Shedinja, who becomes a liability when the meta reacts to whenever its common, to name a few. But pretty much any fad/meme set that comes along for a month or so and then poofs counts.

So, the meta will adapt to Moody. If the adaptations don't work, then it's a problem. If they work, then it was a simply case of Moody exploiting a gap in the current meta's primary team building.

This is the right answer. Assistdon, Chatter hell even Huge Power was given time before they were removed. Heck I remember starting a Chatter team to prove it was banworthy. There are definitely some aspects of Moody that are broken, I agree. But what Klang said about the primary users, and what Rumors said about luck are also relevant. And the dynamic of mechanics totally changes when one becomes widespread. Magic Bounce Perish Song or Haze is something that could be run, more injection of dark types (esp. unaware or PH), Prankster Haze, hell even Punishment or Infiltrator, who knows. As a community member I had always tried to find solutions when these things were extremely active in the ladder. I would prefer not to begin talking about a ban at the first sign of trouble based on theorymonning alone.

Also, I use Unaware Tar.

 

[DinaIsha]

This is the right answer. Assistdon, Chatter hell even Huge Power was given time before they were removed. Heck I remember starting a Chatter team to prove it was banworthy. There are definitely some aspects of Moody that are broken, I agree. But what Klang said about the primary users, and what Rumors said about luck are also relevant. And the dynamic of mechanics totally changes when one becomes widespread. Magic Bounce Perish Song or Haze is something that could be run, more injection of dark types (esp. unaware or PH), Prankster Haze, hell even Punishment or Infiltrator, who knows. As a community member I had always tried to find solutions when these things were extremely active in the ladder. I would prefer not to begin talking about a ban at the first sign of trouble based on theorymonning alone.

Also, I use Unaware Tar.

I've been seeing an increased usage of Moody mons in the ladder. We'll just have to wait and see. Thanks!

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

mmy doesnt have a lot of options really. Imo the only viable sets for it are protean. Other stuff can work obviously and it isnt necessarially bad but honestly the opportunity cost of running pretty much anything over protean makes it just kinda shit. Other sets like no guard or contrary or whatever tend to be exceedingly gimmicky and far more effective in theorymon than in practice.

I can think of;
-ate, Contrary, Download, Fur Coat, Illusion, Magic Bounce, Mold Breaker, Poison Heal, Prankster, Protean, Simple, Speed Boost

Name me any and i can make it work.
Everyone tunnelvisions on Protean, i dont use it and i think its as manageable as the others.

I've been seeing an increased usage of Moody mons in the ladder. We'll just have to wait and see. Thanks!

I made a Moody team aswell, i think its good, Moody user is something special. I will post results later.

 

[HailFall]

I can think of;
-ate, Contrary, Download, Fur Coat, Illusion, Magic Bounce, Mold Breaker, Poison Heal, Prankster, Protean, Simple, Speed Boost

-ate mmy is really really niche and is only used if you need a extremely powerful fairy, ice, or flying type coverage move (which is usually never); otherwise protean is better. Contrary is already pretty bad but theres just better users like mega sceptile or mega ray. Download is situational and outdone by protean 99% of the time. Illusion is gimmicky and seeing as mmy can lure in shit anyways with protean + unexpected coverage move theres really no reason to run it. Mold breaker i guess works but is very team specific and niche. Magic bounce, prankster, fur coat, and poison heal are all way better on defensive mons and theres really no need for them on mmy. poison heal can actually work on some offensive mons like mega ttar or regigigas that actually have decent mixed bulk to set up with it, but theres not much reason for mmy to use it... Simple is okay but yr probably gonna have to run like ghost judgment + focus blast + kings shield or other non-supereffective-against- yourself-coverage + qd so you get walled by unaware mons easily. speed boost is kinda lol because youre already the fastest relevant mon in the tier. I think i covered everything.

 

[Champion Leon]

Haven't you guys been concerned with a Prankster: Imposter, Transform; Dark Void, Block/Substitute Chansey with Eviolite?
It's literally the counter to most enemies. As we know, Eviolite also carries on after using Transform, so it basically locks an enemy into using Struggle, and they cannot switch out due to Block.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Haven't you guys been concerned with a Prankster: Imposter, Transform; Dark Void, Block/Substitute Chansey with Eviolite?
It's literally the counter to most enemies. As we know, Eviolite also carries on after using Transform, so it basically locks an enemy into using Struggle, and they cannot switch out due to Block.

Um no, we aren't concerned. Nobody uses that set. It's not too difficult to counter at all. Magic Bounces, Poison Healers and Ghosts easily beat that set, it's probably worse then just using imposter. Don't post sets nobody uses and ask if we are "concerned" without testing the sets yourselves. It will waste less time and lead to less bad posts.

Edit: that set lacks imprison so you wont be locked into struggle.

 

[Lcass4919]

its time i reveal to the masses my very own duo i've been using and scaring the shit out of the ladder with.

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Download
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Earthquake
- Shift Gear
- Synthesis / roost

Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Scald
- Pursuit /whatever the hell you want.
- Recover

mm, this is a delicious duo, something ive been getting a lot of requests to give to others recently, so here, im posting it so everyone can spam it. how does this core work? well ive always been a fan of shift gear groudon, so i made it so groudon sets up and attempts to sweep, the only "safe" switchin is primal seas grass and flying types. both of which are rare as hell. and if imposter comes in, primal seas yveltal comes to save the day, throwing out a scald to get burns. and the best part is...its setup fodder for groudon if it gets impostered! yay. yvel keeps its main role as a gar/judge mm2y check, gains a niche contrary mm2y check ability, and is almost always going to get at least SOME screen time. its not just some "filler mon with no niche" i made sure yvel can do more.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

its time i reveal to the masses my very own duo i've been using and scaring the shit out of the ladder with.

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Download
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Earthquake
- Shift Gear
- Synthesis / roost

Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Scald
- Pursuit /whatever the hell you want.
- Recover

mm, this is a delicious duo, something ive been getting a lot of requests to give to others recently, so here, im posting it so everyone can spam it. how does this core work? well ive always been a fan of shift gear groudon, so i made it so groudon sets up and attempts to sweep, the only "safe" switchin is primal seas grass and flying types. both of which are rare as hell. and if imposter comes in, primal seas yveltal comes to save the day, throwing out a scald to get burns. and the best part is...its setup fodder for groudon if it gets impostered! yay. yvel keeps its main role as a gar/judge mm2y check, gains a niche contrary mm2y check ability, and is almost always going to get at least SOME screen time. its not just some "filler mon with no niche" i made sure yvel can do more.

I've been using a similar core but with Mega Rayquaza as the P-Don check. It runs Hurricane/Draco Meteor/Origin Pulse and recovery. It's a nice special attacker that can 2hko Registeel and Mega Audino with Origin Pulse. I run Origin Pulse because I lack Heal bell on my own team to heal burns from Imposter. So feel free to use Steam Eruption.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

I've been using a similar core but with Mega Rayquaza as the P-Don check. It runs Hurricane/Draco Meteor/Origin Pulse and recovery. It's a nice special attacker that can 2hko Registeel and Mega Audino with Origin Pulse. I run Origin Pulse because I lack Heal bell on my own team to heal burns from Imposter. So feel free to use Steam Eruption.

Steam Eruption is always better is singles, I have lost so many matches due Steam Eruption/V-Create misses.
Orgin Pulse is half a Focus Miss. It would be better in a doubles balanced hackmons for sure.


I think ztesting uses the Groudon/Yvnetal combo aswell.
Rocky Helmet is another good item option.
Does Will o Whisp work in Heavy Rain ?

I saw a different Yvnetal combo aswell, one with M-Metagross.

Mega Metagross
Ability: Simple

- Shell Smash
- Stored Power
- Earth Power
- Filter

Yvnetal combos so well because of Ground immunity,
Ground may be best offensive type in BH.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Steam Eruption is always better is singles, I have lost so many matches due Steam Eruption/V-Create misses.
Orgin Pulse is half a Focus Miss. It would be better in a doubles balanced hackmons for sure.


I think ztesting uses the Groudon/Yvnetal combo aswell.
Rocky Helmet is another good item option.
Does Will o Whisp work in Heavy Rain ?

I saw a different Yvnetal combo aswell, one with M-Metagross.

Mega Metagross
Ability: Simple

- Shell Smash
- Stored Power
- Earth Power
- Filter

Yvnetal combos so well because of Ground immunity,
Ground may be best offensive type in BH.

I explained why I use Origin Pulse, I don't want imposter spreading burns on my team when it copies Mega Ray. Origin Pulse is the next best Water move, which is like a STAB thanks to Primordial Sea. If your team has a way of dealing with the burns Steam Eruption can cause, then yes it's better. But Origin Pulse is better for my team.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Steam Eruption is always better is singles, I have lost so many matches due Steam Eruption/V-Create misses.
Orgin Pulse is half a Focus Miss. It would be better in a doubles balanced hackmons for sure.


I think ztesting uses the Groudon/Yvnetal combo aswell.
Rocky Helmet is another good item option.
Does Will o Whisp work in Heavy Rain ?

I saw a different Yvnetal combo aswell, one with M-Metagross.

Mega Metagross
Ability: Simple

- Shell Smash
- Stored Power
- Earth Power
- Filter

Yvnetal combos so well because of Ground immunity,
Ground may be best offensive type in BH.

Since kingslayer has already explained the logic of his water move (although Imo he should switch to surf thanks to its greater reliability and higher average damage output), I'll deal with the rest of this post.
Will o Wisp does work in heavy rain.
As for the other set, the main reason I've seen is magpul Yveltal, to set up subs and bp boosts to a sweeper. The imposter, a steel type, cannot switch out and is setup bait.

As for ground being the best offensive type in bh, I wouldn't go that far. Imo it's probably fairy, as steel types die to the best coverage move in the game (magma storm) and the fact that it hits common walls/mons like Giratina or MMX while not having to many mons that wall it.



For the other half/part of this post, I'd like to ask what people think of using megamence to get a second ate. It has decent stats, can run download to boost one of its attacking stats (allowing for an effective cb espeed or cs boomburst) and has a decent bulk. Of course, it does have much lower attacking stats, but that's a given.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

reading this gave me a new inspiration for another 6 same poke team.
I have failed with Zekrom, now i will use ...


I think M-Salamence is not worth the slot compared to other powerhouses.

252 SpA Aerilate Mega Salamence Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Audino: 229-271 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Audino: 255-300 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its only niche is illusion as somehing like Smash M-Metagross.

+ 1 Att does not mean much with King Shield everywhere.
+ 1 SpA is only + 10% compared to M- Ray
M-Mence 339 SpA + 1 does 421 min to 236 SpD M-Ray.
M-Ray 459 SpA does 415 min to 216 SpD M-Mence.

 

[Champion Leon]

Um no, we aren't concerned. Nobody uses that set. It's not too difficult to counter at all. Magic Bounces, Poison Healers and Ghosts easily beat that set, it's probably worse then just using imposter. Don't post sets nobody uses and ask if we are "concerned" without testing the sets yourselves. It will waste less time and lead to less bad posts.

Edit: that set lacks imprison so you wont be locked into struggle.

I meant to include imprison over imposter.
I have personally used it to success.
How do ghosts block imprison? How does poison heal at 12.5% recovery block 25% of Max HP set recoil damage?
How does Magic Bounce counter Imprison and Transform? Imprison targets the self, as any enemy that switches in with a move you have is affected- not just the current foe, and Transform cannot be Magic Bounced. If you use substitute then dark void doesn't affect you when bounced.

I don't appreciate your tone. Handle your emotional reactions before your reply.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

I meant to include imprison over imposter.
I have personally used it to success..

This one right ? Chansey @ Prankster Imprision / Transform / Dark Void / Block ?
I think its a decent set.

I have used both Prankster Transform + Imprision and Prankster Chansey recently.
I think Wish / Sub are better 3rd/4th move options.

Wish is amazingly good on Chansey, too good to pass it up.
Sub is there to stop other Subs. You can use Prankster Sub for scouting
And there is always Destiny Bond if you want use it.

Unfortunately i dont know if you can use Transform while behind Sub.

 

[Champion Leon]

You can, it only fails if the foe has a sub.
Thank you for your reply, it is good to know it works for other people and that the other variations can yield better results. Yes many Pokemon use substitute especially with poison heal, so imprison using substitute can be especially important in countering the move on such a large amount of users.

:)

 

[E4 Flint]

I meant to include imprison over imposter.
I have personally used it to success.
How do ghosts block imprison? How does poison heal at 12.5% recovery block 25% of Max HP set recoil damage?
How does Magic Bounce counter Imprison and Transform? Imprison targets the self, as any enemy that switches in with a move you have is affected- not just the current foe, and Transform cannot be Magic Bounced. If you use substitute then dark void doesn't affect you when bounced.

I don't appreciate your tone. Handle your emotional reactions before your reply.

Hello!

• Ghosts cannot be blocked so they can wait until you finish using your combo and simply switch out. This is extremely easy and effective considering most ghosts in BH are either GengarM with a plate has moved that Chansey cannot use, or a defensive giratina that has no presence and can be easily used as momentum
• Similarly Magic Bounce users cannot be blocked and can pull off a similar combination, since most properly constructed teams have imposter resistant sets
• I am not sure what he meant completely about PH but again it is not very effective when used by an imposter and Giratina is a popular Poison Heal itself

I do not appreciate his tone as well but it really is not the best set to take up. Almost al the time Imposter is the better option. However if you feel it works best for you, continue to use it!

 

[Champion Leon]

I understand they cannot be blocked, I also slashed sub with block because it helps on the switch in. In the event sub is more helpful than block

Maybe he thought Balanced Hackmon users with Poison Heal block sleep, but that is assuming Prankster Spore is used after Poison Heal activates such as when they use protect. In that scenario, I don't think Poison Heal users are completely able to counter the set as simply using imprison blocks sub from them next turn and therefore they cannot block transform or block unless they have poison heal and are Ghost.

Still, imprison + transform forces struggle (if it is their last Pokemon) and a switch which means you literally counter the foe.

On top of that most poison heal users are defensive, such as Giratina so they literally pass on strong defenses while Chanset gets an Eviolite boost to her Defense and Special Defense on top of their copied stats. Some would argue that being able to make 1HKOs 2HKOs is always better because you survive something you wouldn't necessary have survived whereas with holding a toxic orb assumes you have survived the hit for poison heal to activate.

Basically I view it as disabling an opponent, preventing them from switching in unless they want to use struggle, while also giving you their Pokemon with much higher HP and defense.

How can a Pokemon be imposter proof if you go first with Prankster to imprison their ability to use Substitute? (basically the only other ways to block this Chansey set is with taunt or Illusion to block Transform).
If you are getting the opponent to switch out because of this or any other set, by denfiniton you have countered them.

 

[Uselesscrab]

Another minor comment: Spider Web outclasses Block. It is the same move but with more PP.

 

[Laxpras]

Another minor comment: Spider Web outclasses Block. It is the same move but with more PP.

Block and mean look bypass protects and subs tho

 

[Uselesscrab]

Block and mean look bypass protects and subs tho

Never knew that! You learn something new every day.

 

[Champion Leon]

Never knew that! You learn something new every day.

Maybe you should try the set out yourself. Unlike imposter which oftentimes relies on choice scarf or imposter Chansey with Eviolite, Transform allows you to imprison first to prevent any opponent Pokemon from using whatever move you have on Chansey whether it is before or after you use transform. Ironically this Chansey set is imposter proof if you have already activated Imprison before the imposter has...

You might be surprised, especially with proper support like having Stealth Rocks as you accumulate switches.

 

[Akumeoy]

Block and mean look bypass protects and subs tho

Block and Mean Look do not bypass Substitute.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

Speaking of bypassing Substitute, does Infiltrator work with Doom Desire ?

 

[Illusio]

Speaking of bypassing Substitute, does Infiltrator work with Doom Desire ?

I just tested this out and Doom Desire does bypass Substitute with infiltrator.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-372605752

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

During laddering for suspect requirements i encountered a Prankster Normalize M-Gengar.
It also had Taunt to stopp any slower Prankster.

Now im thinking how can you break Double Chansey ( Imposter + Fur Coat) + Prankster Normalize Giratina.