BH Balanced Hackmons

[The Immortal]

Though there is the double standard of stuff like Gengarite Gengar having access to Shadow Tag despite the bans. If that doesn't qualify as a complex exception then I dunno what does.

The set is Gengar @ Gengarite. Nowhere is Shadow Tag in the set. What happens in battle happens in battle. It's a teambuilder ban.

Edit: Actually, banning Gengarite Gengar as a byproduct of Shadow Tag being banned would actually be complex lol. The current ban is simple.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

I think banning Gengarite altogether would be the way to go here, as Gengarite is solely used to get around an existing ban (in this case, Shadow Tag). Banning Mawilite or Medichamite because of getting around the Huge Power/Pure Power ban or banning Kangaskhanite because of getting around the Parental Bond ban is literally not very different from this current situation.

 

[Rumors]

The set is Gengar @ Gengarite. Nowhere is Shadow Tag in the set. What happens in battle happens in battle. It's a teambuilder ban.

Edit: Actually, banning Gengarite Gengar as a byproduct of Shadow Tag being banned would actually be complex lol. The current ban is simple.

I don't see how banning Gengarite as part of the Shadow Tag ban would be complex. Seems like it'd be along the same lines as Moody falling under Evasion clause or OHKO moves called by Metronome failing or, in metas with it active, Sleep move shutting down Metronome sleep moves (if what happens in battle happens in battle, shouldn't Metronome moves still work?). I mean, Shadow Tag is banned, Gengarite gives you Shadow Tag and has literally zero other uses, so what's so complex? At least to me, "All sources of Shadow Tag are banned" sounds far simpler than "Shadow Tag is banned unless you use Gengar holding Gengarite or you Imposter a Mega-Gengar that evolved from Mega-Gengarite, then it's allowed." Besides, shutting that stuff down closes down possibilities for loopholes to be allowed in future rules since the precedent will be gone.

I've been bringing this up for two years now and nobody until today has given me any reason beyond "lol its not broken no ban". (And to be blunt, today's reason doesn't make sense to me.) Banning stuff like Gengarite is not about brokeness, it's about consistency to ensure there's no loopholes in the rules. Otherwise the current ban is inconsistent with how other clauses work or the same clause works with other natural sources of Shadow Tag.

And this also applies to stuff like Mawilite, Medichamite, Kangaskhanite, and... I feel like I'm forgetting one. Primals are unbanned, so it's not them...

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

The set is Gengar @ Gengarite. Nowhere is Shadow Tag in the set. What happens in battle happens in battle. It's a teambuilder ban.

Edit: Actually, banning Gengarite Gengar as a byproduct of Shadow Tag being banned would actually be complex lol. The current ban is simple.

Um, since when? I'm honestly confused as to when this has ever been the case. When ubers sought to ban shadow tag, Gengarite was included. If a Mega gained access to Moody, it would head straight to AG. Heck, teambuilder already functions this way with already extant effects - Blaze Blaziken with its mega stone and Swords Dance doesn't get past the Baton Pass clause.

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't have a particular problem with Gengarite being legal, but it really is in opposition to current policy.

I don't see how banning Gengarite as part of the Shadow Tag ban would be complex. Seems like it'd be along the same lines as Moody falling under Evasion clause or OHKO moves called by Metronome failing or, in metas with it active, Sleep move shutting down Metronome sleep moves (if what happens in battle happens in battle, shouldn't Metronome moves still work?). I mean, Shadow Tag is banned, Gengarite gives you Shadow Tag and has literally zero other uses, so what's so complex? At least to me, "All sources of Shadow Tag are banned" sounds far simpler than "Shadow Tag is banned unless you use Gengar holding Gengarite or you Imposter a Mega-Gengar that evolved from Mega-Gengarite, then it's allowed." Besides, shutting that stuff down closes down possibilities for loopholes to be allowed in future rules since the precedent will be gone.

I've been bringing this up for two years now and nobody until today has given me any reason beyond "lol its not broken no ban". (And to be blunt, today's reason doesn't make sense to me.) Banning stuff like Gengarite is not about brokeness, it's about consistency to ensure there's no loopholes in the rules. Otherwise the current ban is inconsistent with how other clauses work or the same clause works with other natural sources of Shadow Tag.

And this also applies to stuff like Mawilite, Medichamite, Kangaskhanite, and... I feel like I'm forgetting one. Primals are unbanned, so it's not them...

Are you thinking of the ability to bypass the ability clause with any stone? Not sure what else it could be that you missed.

 

[ih8ih8sn0w]

I think banning Gengarite altogether would be the way to go here, as Gengarite is solely used to get around an existing ban (in this case, Shadow Tag). Banning Mawilite or Medichamite because of getting around the Huge Power/Pure Power ban or banning Kangaskhanite because of getting around the Parental Bond ban is literally not very different from this current situation.

I don't see a point in banning any mega stone. Reasons:
Gengarite: it's dead to pretty much everything that isn't a wall that cannot hit ghosts. The lack of an item slot means that it cannot run stuff like Judgment for imposterproofing so it almost always needs to be running a trap based moveset that it can be easily dealt with by your own team. In addition, it is forced to be normal Gengar which tells the opp that they have a trapper on TP (although this can be somewhat avoided with illusion trickery).
M-cham and m-mawile struggle to keep up with most other sweepers due to their naturally low base stats, and high amount of support needed to have them do anything significant.
M-kang pretty much just has the 2hko everything (does it actually 2hko everything?) set which cannot look at anything with offensive presence.
While banning these would be relevant in almost any other meta, they are not influential enough, or uncompetitive enough to really be worthy of a ban in bh.

 

[The Immortal]

I mean, Shadow Tag is banned, Gengarite gives you Shadow Tag and has literally zero other uses, so what's so complex? At least to me, "All sources of Shadow Tag are banned" sounds far simpler than "Shadow Tag is banned unless you use Gengar holding Gengarite or you Imposter a Mega-Gengar that evolved from Mega-Gengarite, then it's allowed."

The ban is "Shadow Tag is banned", not whatever you posted. I repeat, nowhere in the set is Shadow Tag.

I've been bringing this up for two years now and nobody until today has given me any reason beyond "lol its not broken no ban". (And to be blunt, today's reason doesn't make sense to me.) Banning stuff like Gengarite is not about brokeness, it's about consistency to ensure there's no loopholes in the rules. Otherwise the current ban is inconsistent with how other clauses work or the same clause works with other natural sources of Shadow Tag.

See below.

If a Mega gained access to Moody, it would head straight to AG. Heck, teambuilder already functions this way with already extant effects - Blaze Blaziken with its mega stone and Swords Dance doesn't get past the Baton Pass clause.

This is the Moody clause. In the words of Rumors, all sources of Shadow Tag Moody is banned. Similarly, Blazikenite breaks the Baton Pass clause. There isn't a literal ban on Speed Boost + Baton Pass, but a clause against all forms of boosting speed with BP.

BH is free to add a clause if it wants whereby banning all forms of Shadow Tag, however that isn't the case and I take it that BH leaders don't want it to be the case since you've tried for two years, Rumors. To sum up, Shadow Tag is literally banned. This ban is simple. The clause is complex. BH can utilize a clause if it chooses but a ban doesn't and shouldn't automatically result in the complex clause. Now you can stop arguing with me, lol, because I don't run BH and I'm not stopping the Shadow Tag ban from being a clause. I'm simply telling you what it currently is.

 

[chartung17]

M-kang pretty much just has the 2hko everything (does it actually 2hko everything?) set which cannot look at anything with offensive presence.

Blissey with leftovers isn't 2HKOed by the Nature's Madness + Seismic Toss/Night Shade combo, and neither is anything with an odd number of HP greater than 400 that starts at full health and is holding a Sitrus Berry, but nothing can survive it without some form of healing.
And I actually considered using M-Kang with a Z-spam set, but it turns out that Parental Bond doesn't work with Z-moves. Also, M-Kang is just too slow: even after a Shell Smash, it's still slower (by 1 point) than max speed Scarf Deoxys-A.

 

[Rumors]

The Immortal I can't speak for others, but, at least in my case, I addressed and argued with you specifically because you are the OM Leader. You "outrank" Flint, as you clearly showed in the Suspect thread when you outright shot down some of his proposed solutions to CFZs. As such, when you come in and say "there's no need to complex solutions regarding Shadow Tag and Gengarite", it's seen as you coming in and stating that such a ban will never allowed to be able to happen regardless of what the playerbase or leaders of BH may want.

Which makes things more confusing when you turn around and say "lol Flint's call not mine", especially after the shutdown in the Suspect topic. I mean, are you shutting down ideas and solutions like that or just voicing your opinion and/or explaining things? I can't be sure and, just in case its the former, I have no choice but to address you directly on issues like that, whether you're the leader of BH or not.

Now if your intention is to do nothing but explain your opinion, then can I ask that you be careful with your wording and the like? You are the OM Leader, your opinion can easily carry enough weight to be misconstrued as OM policy whether it is intended to be or not.


...and as an aside, on the "mentioning it fore two years", Verbatim was an absentee leader who only responded to things that reached critical mass. And even then, only after we performed an elaborate ritual to summon his presence. I've not brought it up much or even at all since Flint has taken over. And in any case, the topic has been overshadowed by other things, such as Protean and -ate suspects. So it's been basically been like "Yeah we should ban/not ban tha- BAN PROTEAN OMG ITS SO BROKEN!1!1!1!!" every time it's been brought up. Hence why I mention it periodically: trying to actually get some attention to the topic over all the other noise.

 

[The Immortal]

I never said this: "there's no need to complex solutions regarding Shadow Tag and Gengarite". I don't know how I could have been any more clearer:

BH is free to add a clause if it wants whereby banning all forms of Shadow Tag, however that isn't the case and I take it that BH leaders don't want it to be the case since you've tried for two years, Rumors. To sum up, Shadow Tag is literally banned. This ban is simple. The clause is complex. BH can utilize a clause if it chooses but a ban doesn't and shouldn't automatically result in the complex clause. Now you can stop arguing with me, lol, because I don't run BH and I'm not stopping the Shadow Tag ban from being a clause. I'm simply telling you what it currently is.

Now would you kindly stop posting in this thread if you're not going to contribute to BH metagame discussion. If you think Shadow Tag should be suspected, as in Mega Gengar, then bring it up in the suspects thread. Thanks.

 

[aki0s]

Here's some bad sets I've been using:

bad

Диалга (Dialga) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Defog
- Tail Glow
- King's Shield

Standard Dialga, now with magic bounce & defog. Does Dialga stuff.


Аркеус (Arceus-Ghost) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 176 HP / 252 SpA / 80 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Moongeist Beam
- Substitute
- Quiver Dance

Traps Chansey's that imposter Dialga & uses them as set-up bait. Arceus normal is used over the classic xerneas because it doesn't care about spectral thief.

 

[Swaggy-G]

I don't play hackmons, and I don't know how viable this is, but I've noticed a cool little interaction between technician, storm throw, and frost breath. For those who don't know, those last two are fighting and ice type moves, respectively, that have a base power of 60 and always crit. Since they are boosted by technician, this gives essentially two moves with a base power of 135, that have no drawbacks, and ignore stat changes. Again, I have absolutely no idea how viable this is, just thought I'd share my find with everyone.

 

[willdbeast]

I don't play hackmons, and I don't know how viable this is, but I've noticed a cool little interaction between technician, storm throw, and frost breath. For those who don't know, those last two are fighting and ice type moves, respectively, that have a base power of 60 and always crit. Since they are boosted by technician, this gives essentially two moves with a base power of 135, that have no drawbacks, and ignore stat changes. Again, I have absolutely no idea how viable this is, just thought I'd share my find with everyone.

I think these were probably more viable last gen since now the option of choice for getting past boosts is spectral thief.
Other moves deserving an honourable mention for technician are bonemarang and gear grind (gotta love HO technician steelix).

 

[ElMustacho]

I don't play hackmons, and I don't know how viable this is, but I've noticed a cool little interaction between technician, storm throw, and frost breath. For those who don't know, those last two are fighting and ice type moves, respectively, that have a base power of 60 and always crit. Since they are boosted by technician, this gives essentially two moves with a base power of 135, that have no drawbacks, and ignore stat changes. Again, I have absolutely no idea how viable this is, just thought I'd share my find with everyone.

I once saw some sets of mmx with storm throw in the past gen of BH, primarily to murder mtar because it used to gain defence boosts with diamond storm. But in reality technician is not a BH ability since you get to freely choose your moves. Roserade would just use flamethrower instead of hp fire if it had the chance. Breloom might prefer power whip since it outdamages bullet seed 2/3 of the time. A similar discussion can be brought up with most legit sets.

Edit: The only crit build viable is Critdra which is kinda like kingdra with sniper except kingdra is mmy and you throw psycho boost and fleur cannon instead of hydro pump.

 

[Whatwasthatnoise]

Actually, Technician is still pretty viable as a build. Technician Storm Throw MM2X is nasty, and also makes it much more difficult for things to set up- notably, it crushes Normal Arceus where Spectral Thief wouldn't, and is generally a good option. You're outdamaging unboosted Close Combat and High Jump Kick with Technician Storm Throw, which is pretty good for a move with no downsides that ignores defensive boosts.

You also get Gear Grind and Bonemerang, which become 150 total base power, and rip chunks out of anything that doesn't resist you. Aegislash in particular can't do much of anything against Bonemerang (bar Prankster)and Solgaleo or Metagross-M are also hit much harder by Bonemerang. Gear Grind hits things like Mega Audino or Xerneas harder than anything else, and also shred Diancie- though, why either Diancie is switching in on you or you're staying in on Diancie with a Fairy-weak Pokemon I don't know.

You also get boosted priority, which is nice but not as good as it used to be; Ice Shard would outrun Gale Wings Megaray and OHKO, but it doesn't outspeed Triage. Now I would personally reccomend Icicle Spear; it might not be so consistent as Skill Link, but should you manage to hit all five you're hitting about as powerfully as your Storm Throw, and anhililating Giratina and Zygod.

 

[ElMustacho]

Might as well run Merciless and Toxic spikes. If you need to crit.
By the way an unboosted Arceus is not really threatening. You are a normal type and thus susceptible to prankster encore. You cannot even change your typing to dark with z conversion because on arceus it doesn't work (just tested it). Also with steel worker you deal the same damage for steel moves.
Aegislash dies to precipice blades anyway. Bonemerang has the only nice of bypassing sturdy and sashes. Then it has less accuracy than earthquake.

 

[Rumors]

Dual Chop is also a nice Technician boosted move, doing more damage than Dragon Rush and being more reliable. It also boosts the likes of Fake Out and a number of lower-power + utility moves, like Circle Throw, Bulldoze, Snarl, etc. They aren't your standard stuff, but there is definitely a niche there if you build a team for it. Technician is also the higher risk/higher reward alternative to Skill Link for relevant sets, such as Icicle Spear + Bone Rush Kyu-B.

Might as well run Merciless and Toxic spikes. If you need to crit.

Defog and Rapid Spin say hi. You need to build around Toxic Spikes if you want to use Merciless reliably.


---------


Meanwhile, this is still a viable and mean set. Actually, Gen VII buffed it with Dark-immunity to Pranskter.


Yveltal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Dark Pulse
- Quiver Dance
- Spore

Basically, it started as an alternative to PH Kyogre back in pre-ORAS Gen VI and it pulls its weight quite nicely. Lots of self-sustain to PH + Oblivion Wing, can get set-up opportunities with Spore, and Flying/Dark has great coverage only resisted by Diancie and Magearna. (The latter of which... what does it even do? Every game I play or replay I watch, it switches in, takes a hit or two, and then drops without accomplishing much of anything. Am I missing something?) The set is Imposter resistant so long as you're above 25-33% HP, barring Pikachu or random Lucky Punch crit, and the Imposter is not poisoned. Dark Pulse is used over Night Daze to make dealing with Imposter much easier since random accuracy drops are friggin' annoying. You can also Imposter-check it fairly well with a Refrigerate or Pixelate Fakespeed. EVs and nature are tweakable and are not perfectly optimized, I suspect some HP could be shifted to somewhere else without becoming notably easier to KO.

"But wait, why not Shell Smash White Herb Power Trip blah blah bah!?"

Simple: lower risk, lower reward, but safer, more reliable, and more consistent.



Meanwhile, this set is super niche but still fun.


Escavalier @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Spore
- Recover
- Trick Room


Escavalier is still arguably the best Gyro Ball user in the tier. Only notable competition comes from Mega-Aggron, who has higher attack and defense, but much lower special bulk and is also multiple speed tiers faster. This is a very flexible set: Recover and Spore are basically filler moves (and probably should be Shore Up but whatever, old set is old) and can be replaced with coverage, U-Turn, set-up, utility, or what have you. You can also replace Flash Fire with whatever ability you wish, such as Prankster and ditching Trick Room for Copycat for the old Prankster Gyro Set or use Queen's Majesty to stop priority and utterly murder stuff like Triage Rayquaza. Speaking of, Trick Room is quite nice in the meta as it basically says "screw you" to Psychic Terrain and proceeds to one-shot those arrogant Mewtwos and anyone else without decent or better bulk with Gyro Ball. And then abuse that delicious terrain they so kindly set-up for you to demolish -ates and Triage abusers.


But yeah, how flexible is the set? Well, here's a dumb theorymon alternative that looks both retarded and fun...

Escavalier @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Regenerator / Psychic Terrain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Spore
- Belly Drum
- Trick Room

...if someone tries this version, tell me how it goes?

 

[Whatwasthatnoise]

Dual Chop is also a nice Technician boosted move, doing more damage than Dragon Rush and being more reliable. It also boosts the likes of Fake Out and a number of lower-power + utility moves, like Circle Throw, Bulldoze, Snarl, etc. They aren't your standard stuff, but there is definitely a niche there if you build a team for it. Technician is also the higher risk/higher reward alternative to Skill Link for relevant sets, such as Icicle Spear + Bone Rush Kyu-B.




Defog and Rapid Spin say hi. You need to build around Toxic Spikes if you want to use Merciless reliably.


---------


Meanwhile, this is still a viable and mean set. Actually, Gen VII buffed it with Dark-immunity to Pranskter.


Yveltal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Dark Pulse
- Quiver Dance
- Spore

Basically, it started as an alternative to PH Kyogre back in pre-ORAS Gen VI and it pulls its weight quite nicely. Lots of self-sustain to PH + Oblivion Wing, can get set-up opportunities with Spore, and Flying/Dark has great coverage only resisted by Diancie and Magearna. (The latter of which... what does it even do? Every game I play or replay I watch, it switches in, takes a hit or two, and then drops without accomplishing much of anything. Am I missing something?) The set is Imposter resistant so long as you're above 25-33% HP, barring Pikachu or random Lucky Punch crit, and the Imposter is not poisoned. Dark Pulse is used over Night Daze to make dealing with Imposter much easier since random accuracy drops are friggin' annoying. You can also Imposter-check it fairly well with a Refrigerate or Pixelate Fakespeed. EVs and nature are tweakable and are not perfectly optimized, I suspect some HP could be shifted to somewhere else without becoming notably easier to KO.

"But wait, why not Shell Smash White Herb Power Trip blah blah bah!?"

Simple: lower risk, lower reward, but safer, more reliable, and more consistent.



Meanwhile, this set is super niche but still fun.


Escavalier @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Spore
- Recover
- Trick Room


Escavalier is still arguably the best Gyro Ball user in the tier. Only notable competition comes from Mega-Aggron, who has higher attack and defense, but much lower special bulk and is also multiple speed tiers faster. This is a very flexible set: Recover and Spore are basically filler moves (and probably should be Shore Up but whatever, old set is old) and can be replaced with coverage, U-Turn, set-up, utility, or what have you. You can also replace Flash Fire with whatever ability you wish, such as Prankster and ditching Trick Room for Copycat for the old Prankster Gyro Set or use Queen's Majesty to stop priority and utterly murder stuff like Triage Rayquaza. Speaking of, Trick Room is quite nice in the meta as it basically says "screw you" to Psychic Terrain and proceeds to one-shot those arrogant Mewtwos and anyone else without decent or better bulk with Gyro Ball. And then abuse that delicious terrain they so kindly set-up for you to demolish -ates and Triage abusers.


But yeah, how flexible is the set? Well, here's a dumb theorymon alternative that looks both retarded and fun...

Escavalier @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Regenerator / Psychic Terrain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Spore
- Belly Drum
- Trick Room

...if someone tries this version, tell me how it goes?

As of twenty minutes ago I'm free from uni stuff for a week or two, will give this a try.

Also if anyone else wants to throw some 'Cool, but really dumb' theorymon sets out I'll give those a try too.

 

[Orangutan]

Dual Chop is also a nice Technician boosted move, doing more damage than Dragon Rush and being more reliable. It also boosts the likes of Fake Out and a number of lower-power + utility moves, like Circle Throw, Bulldoze, Snarl, etc. They aren't your standard stuff, but there is definitely a niche there if you build a team for it. Technician is also the higher risk/higher reward alternative to Skill Link for relevant sets, such as Icicle Spear + Bone Rush Kyu-B.




Defog and Rapid Spin say hi. You need to build around Toxic Spikes if you want to use Merciless reliably.


---------


Meanwhile, this is still a viable and mean set. Actually, Gen VII buffed it with Dark-immunity to Pranskter.


Yveltal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Dark Pulse
- Quiver Dance
- Spore

Basically, it started as an alternative to PH Kyogre back in pre-ORAS Gen VI and it pulls its weight quite nicely. Lots of self-sustain to PH + Oblivion Wing, can get set-up opportunities with Spore, and Flying/Dark has great coverage only resisted by Diancie and Magearna. (The latter of which... what does it even do? Every game I play or replay I watch, it switches in, takes a hit or two, and then drops without accomplishing much of anything. Am I missing something?) The set is Imposter resistant so long as you're above 25-33% HP, barring Pikachu or random Lucky Punch crit, and the Imposter is not poisoned. Dark Pulse is used over Night Daze to make dealing with Imposter much easier since random accuracy drops are friggin' annoying. You can also Imposter-check it fairly well with a Refrigerate or Pixelate Fakespeed. EVs and nature are tweakable and are not perfectly optimized, I suspect some HP could be shifted to somewhere else without becoming notably easier to KO.

"But wait, why not Shell Smash White Herb Power Trip blah blah bah!?"

Simple: lower risk, lower reward, but safer, more reliable, and more consistent.



Meanwhile, this set is super niche but still fun.


Escavalier @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Spore
- Recover
- Trick Room


Escavalier is still arguably the best Gyro Ball user in the tier. Only notable competition comes from Mega-Aggron, who has higher attack and defense, but much lower special bulk and is also multiple speed tiers faster. This is a very flexible set: Recover and Spore are basically filler moves (and probably should be Shore Up but whatever, old set is old) and can be replaced with coverage, U-Turn, set-up, utility, or what have you. You can also replace Flash Fire with whatever ability you wish, such as Prankster and ditching Trick Room for Copycat for the old Prankster Gyro Set or use Queen's Majesty to stop priority and utterly murder stuff like Triage Rayquaza. Speaking of, Trick Room is quite nice in the meta as it basically says "screw you" to Psychic Terrain and proceeds to one-shot those arrogant Mewtwos and anyone else without decent or better bulk with Gyro Ball. And then abuse that delicious terrain they so kindly set-up for you to demolish -ates and Triage abusers.


But yeah, how flexible is the set? Well, here's a dumb theorymon alternative that looks both retarded and fun...

Escavalier @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Regenerator / Psychic Terrain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Spore
- Belly Drum
- Trick Room

...if someone tries this version, tell me how it goes?

not full match (he forfeited) and the dazzling did good for the mega diancie but after a belly drum in trick room, it only does like 10% to ferrothorn. also in the beginning i used the copycat prankster set which dealt with deoxys speed and did 50% to mega manectric: http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen7balancedhackmons-500554787

good example of the prankster copycat escavadier and a random griseous orb giratina for the lols. giratina took care of a weird offensive contrary toxapex and shedinja while the escavadier played mindtricks and took down shell smash qm kommo-o w/ focus sash and a simple z-conversion golisopod. he was normal type so i could hit for neutral damage but he was still slow. basically i just spored, gyro ball, and copycat. he woke up twice but used recover but i could outstall him so he forfeited: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-500559659

meh i just added a couple mons and then that was that because i created a different account for this and ive lost once and that was because of zygarde-c and i added a check to that instead of toxapex but... i still dont think im going to come back to this team because it isnt all too fun and the escavalier are only viable in some cases and i probably wont be using them soon (ive played 12 rounds, lost once, im at 1240 and im logging out of that account and it isnt registeredok)

 

[Rumors]

Your first replay is a link to the battle room itself, so it doesn't work. Anyway, the Prankster set, already know about it rather well since that version was invented sometime back in Gen V. As for Ferrothorn, you either screwed up IVs/EVs or that wasn't a normal Ferrothorn, since...

+6 252+ Atk Escavalier Gyro Ball (25 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 54-65 (15.3 - 18.4%) -- possible 6HKO (min speed Ferro)

+6 252+ Atk Escavalier Gyro Ball (42 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 92-108 (26.1 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (31 IV 0 EV speed Ferro)

Either way, Ferrothorn is the same base speed as Escalvalier, so Gyro Ball sucks vs it anyway. Ferrothorn is also about as niche as Escalvalier, so comparing Esca's value to damage against Ferro isn't really relevant. Not that Escalvalier is anything but very niche that requires a good bit of team building around it to use it properly, but still. Now something like Registeel, on the other hand... who is the bane of Gyro Escalvalier...

 

[Orangutan]

Your first replay is a link to the battle room itself, so it doesn't work. Anyway, the Prankster set, already know about it rather well since that version was invented sometime back in Gen V. As for Ferrothorn, you either screwed up IVs/EVs or that wasn't a normal Ferrothorn, since...

+6 252+ Atk Escavalier Gyro Ball (25 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 54-65 (15.3 - 18.4%) -- possible 6HKO (min speed Ferro)

+6 252+ Atk Escavalier Gyro Ball (42 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 92-108 (26.1 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (31 IV 0 EV speed Ferro)

Either way, Ferrothorn is the same base speed as Escalvalier, so Gyro Ball sucks vs it anyway. Ferrothorn is also about as niche as Escalvalier, so comparing Esca's value to damage against Ferro isn't really relevant. Not that Escalvalier is anything but very niche that requires a good bit of team building around it to use it properly, but still. Now something like Registeel, on the other hand... who is the bane of Gyro Escalvalier...

i don't think the whole point of me testing is to see if ferrothorn was a good counter or not to escavadier but 15-18% is in the 10% range and he did have gyro ball so probably min speed and i hope you know those battles suck because it was against newer players

was just trying to help u test not trying to get into an argument

 

[Ashihiro]

I did not find the right place for this, so I'll ask here. What are you thinking of Comatose in the current meta? I have found it quite annoying to play matches that a Deoxys-speed sleep talk spams and simply can not be stopped for some reason that Dragon Tail does not fall on fairies.

 

[aki0s]

I did not find the right place for this, so I'll ask here. What are you thinking of Comatose in the current meta? I have found it quite annoying to play matches that a Deoxys-speed sleep talk spams and simply can not be stopped for some reason that Dragon Tail does not fall on fairies.

Comaphaze is annoying, but it's not impossible to handle. If you place a magic-bouncer and a regen-vest pokemon on your team you can usually handle them pretty well. As you also said, a fairy is pretty useful as well.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Couple of cool sets that have been doing some good work for me, the last one being the one I'm most proud of.

Gyarados-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Rapid Spin
- Shore Up

With all the powerful psychics and ghosts being a pain in the ass, this guy is amazing as a special wall if you make it immune to electric z moves. Yveltal could be used in a similar way too as it's not weak to fighting but special fighting moves suck anyway and I prefer resisting fire and not being weak to SR. In fact the only relevant special attacking type gyarados is weak to is fairy. The rest of the set is pretty much straight forward and can definately be changed.

Marshadow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike
- Spectral Thief
- Trick

While marshadow is one hell of a fast ball of perfect stab coverage, it's attack stat is kind of underwhelming in balanced hackmons standard and his bulk is too poor to consider set up imo. Marshadow however becomes an insane ghost ninja when you throw in adaptability, a z-move to cover his poor ghost stab and scarf to outspeed just about everything. 3 games out of 4 I start with marshadow end up with me getting a kill turn 1 and immedialty starting 6 vs 5 (and I'm not even talking about low ladder here). In fact, the only things to resist him are pretty much maudino, fur coat and sash stuff. A set without scarf could also be possible in which case you'll probably want to go jolly to outspeed arceus, use a life orb and shadow sneak over trick. However I really like scarf to suprise psychic surge and dazzling mons and keep my item secret as long as I don't outspeed something I'm not supposed to. If you decide to use this set, be prepared for chansey as this thing is as hard to deal with for you as it will be for your opponent.

Lunala @ Fist Plate
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpA / 36 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Judgment
- Genesis Supernova
- Shore Up


When I first looked at the new gen7 mons, lunala seemed rather underwhelming to me, but this set is probably the best I've created in a long while . The idea is to be as big of an offensive threat as possible while also being a back up for when you completely mispredict a dangerous set up mon which is essential if you want to win a lot on the long run. Lunala's HP is higher than just about everything that is good and sets up and lunala only has 2 huge weaknesses, meaning it's likely to get ohko'd, in which case, it will bring down whatever is trying to sweep with innards out. Meanwhile, if your opponent decides he'd rather try to kill it slowly to not get the big damage from innards out, he'll have to deal with an offesnive behemoth with crazy coverage. Moongeist beam is your main stab and makes you shedinja proof. Genesis supernova is your wallbreaking move for the bulky mons. Judgment is there because it's much stronger than secret sword and makes lunala chansey proof as long as you have a dark in your team. The fact fist plate can be knocked off would have been a problem if not for the fact that anything that uses knock off on full health lunala just bought itself a ticket to the graveyard. Shore up makes shure your opponent can't kill lunala with little chunks of hp and not take big damage from innards out and should be used if you suspect a sweeper of doing over 50% but less than 100% to lunala to get the most out of innards out. I'd highly suggest you use this set in combination with stuff that can stop it from being crippled by status and leech seed as it will stop you from going out with a bang!

The speed EVs are to outspeed unninvested 100 speed mons if that wasn't obvious

 

[drampa's grandpa]

Couple of cool sets that have been doing some good work for me, the last one being the one I'm most proud of.

Gyarados-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Rapid Spin
- Shore Up

With all the powerful psychics and ghosts being a pain in the ass, this guy is amazing as a special wall if you make it immune to electric z moves. Yveltal could be used in a similar way too as it's not weak to fighting but special fighting moves suck anyway and I prefer resisting fire and not being weak to SR. In fact the only relevant special attacking type gyarados is weak to is fairy. The rest of the set is pretty much straight forward and can definately be changed.

Marshadow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike
- Spectral Thief
- Trick

While marshadow is one hell of a fast ball of perfect stab coverage, it's attack stat is kind of underwhelming in balanced hackmons standard and his bulk is too poor to consider set up imo. Marshadow however becomes an insane ghost ninja when you throw in adaptability, a z-move to cover his poor ghost stab and scarf to outspeed just about everything. 3 games out of 4 I start with marshadow end up with me getting a kill turn 1 and immedialty starting 6 vs 5 (and I'm not even talking about low ladder here). In fact, the only things to resist him are pretty much audino meg and fur coat stuff. A set without scarf could also be possible in which case you'll probably want to go jolly to outspeed arceus, use a life orb and shadow sneak over trick. However I really like scarf to suprise psychic surge and dazzling mons and keep my item secret as long as I don't outspeed something I'm not supposed to. If you decide to use this set, be prepared for chansey as this thing is as hard to deal with for you as it will be for your opponent.

Lunala @ Fist Plate
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpA / 36 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Judgment
- Genesis Supernova
- Shore Up


When I first looked at the new gen7 mons, lunala seemed rather underwhelming to me, but this set is probably the best I've created in a long while . The idea is to be as big of an offensive threat as possible while also being a back up for when you completely mispredict a dangerous set up mon which is essential if you want to win a lot on the long run. Lunala's HP is higher than just about everything that is good and sets up and lunala only has 2 huge weaknesses, meaning it's likely to get ohko'd, in which case, it will bring down whatever is trying to sweep with innards out. Meanwhile, if your opponent decides he'd rather try to kill it slowly to not get the big damage from innards out, he'll have to deal with an offesnive behemoth with crazy coverage. Moongeist beam is your main stab and makes you shedinja proof. Genesis supernova is your wallbreaking move for the bulky mons. Judgment is there because it's much stronger than secret sword and makes lunala chansey proof as long as you have a dark in your team. The fact fist plate can be knocked off would have been a problem if not for the fact that anything that uses knock off on full health lunala just bought itself a ticket to the graveyard. Shore up makes shure your opponent can't kill lunala with little chunks of hp and not take big damage from innards out and should be used if you suspect a sweeper of doing over 50% but less than 100% to lunala to get the most out of innards out. I'd highly suggest you use this set in combination with stuff that can stop it from being crippled by status and leech seed as it will stop you from going out with a bang!

The speed EVs are to outspeed unninvested 100 speed mons if that wasn't obvious

That Lunala set looks cool, but I'd suggest running Spooky Plate Judgement and Secret Sword instead of Moongeist Beam and Fist Plate Judgement. It makes it imposterproof and able to hit Chansey that aren't Imposter. Moongeist doesn't really help against anything without boosts or ability immunities (i.e. nothing for ghost). Well there's Shedinja... I suppose that it depends what you care about killing more. Shedinja dies to innards out anyway.

The Gyarados set looks neat. Marshadow would like to not be locked into a 1 pp move IMO, and Adaptability doesn't effect Sssss anyway.

 

[Noventia]

Is marshadow useable in BH?

i'd also like to mention that Ash-greninja can exist without getting a kill and run protean or whatever the fuck it wants

Edit: seems like protean is banned, but adapability and stuff still exists