BH Balanced Hackmons

[in the hills]

Please keep the conversation on topic and refrain from unproductive posts please. This isn't the place for petty arguments, and yes, Tapu Fini is a potent Pokemon in the current metagame.

Stay on topic of Imposter's impact on BH, or start a new one; this is an interesting topic to discuss so it should not devolve into a petty back and forth. Thanks

 

[Redchimp]

On the topic of imposter being a solid BH strategy, what are some other current potent threats in the metagame? What stratagies have certainly fallen recently? My current pick would be metroxern as once it gets a rapid spin it is incredibly hard to stop as most of the metagame doesn't have the definsive qualities to block a single pixilate boosted boomburst, let alone one that has metronome boosts. If someone else thinks Metroxern isn't a big issue please tell me how to deal with it as it's the main thing keeping me from being 1400 consistently.

 

[XxBigGuy89xX]

please tell me how to deal with it as it's the main thing keeping me from being 1400 consistently.

Ho-Oh is able to take several boombursts even after a couple metronome boosts (edit: did a damage calc I hadn't thought to do before and ho-oh is unlikely to be ko'd even by two fully metronomed boombursts), and is also just pretty useful in general. I've actually only gone against that kind of xerneas once or twice with the team I'm currently experimenting with, but I was able to rebuff it with:

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Parting Shot
- Strength Sap
- Defog

Ho-Oh @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Dragon Ascent
- Glacial Lance
- Earthquake

I hard switch into registeel, parting shot (to protect v-create's defense drop) into ho-oh, and use v-create either to 2HKO Xerneas or give whatever switches in a solid smacking. (Scarf + Jolly ho-oh outspeeds even after a rapid spin boost)

Conceptually: Anything with special bulk, fairy resistance and hard-hitting STAB/supereffective move. Zacian-C seems like an even more direct and also (maybe) more commonly used counter, but I don't use it so idk.

 

[Ace Roll]

On the topic of imposter being a solid BH strategy, what are some other current potent threats in the metagame? What stratagies have certainly fallen recently? My current pick would be metroxern as once it gets a rapid spin it is incredibly hard to stop as most of the metagame doesn't have the definsive qualities to block a single pixilate boosted boomburst, let alone one that has metronome boosts. If someone else thinks Metroxern isn't a big issue please tell me how to deal with it as it's the main thing keeping me from being 1400 consistently.

https://pokepast.es/5eb51117e755ab85

You have 2 different Ho-oh sets (probably more), then there is the obvious soundproof which isn't really competitively viable, furthermore there is also poison heal lugia with baneful bunker who can easily live a few hits and stop the metronome momentum also threaten knock off. Last there is ice scales Solgaleo or dusk mane if you prefer more attack and less speed.

You may have to alter a few moves to make them fit on your current team.

Another little bonus is that you can also go into your own imposter - chansey on the first switch, and if you happen to use metro xern yourself and your opponent goes into imposter - chansey you can go into your own chansey if healthy enough (need to do calcs) without it being "impostered" but thanks to its bulk you can trap it with anchor shot, pp stall and kill it with knock off + recover:

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Soft-Boiled
- Haze
- Knock Off

252+ SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 156-184 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 210-247 (29.8 - 35%) -- not a KO

 

[Lunatic Hai]

On the topic of imposter being a solid BH strategy, what are some other current potent threats in the metagame? What stratagies have certainly fallen recently? My current pick would be metroxern as once it gets a rapid spin it is incredibly hard to stop as most of the metagame doesn't have the definsive qualities to block a single pixilate boosted boomburst, let alone one that has metronome boosts. If someone else thinks Metroxern isn't a big issue please tell me how to deal with it as it's the main thing keeping me from being 1400 consistently.

As the mastermind behind and #1 shill for based drip deer, I can offer some insight here. Three very important things come into play when trying to deal with Metrosexual, those namely being what exact variation/moveset of the mon it is, (as with many mons tbh, but especially with this one), its item, and status. The first is hugely impactful in terms of how you'd actually play around it, which is why I'm not listing any specific mons/sets just yet, and will be left for last.

Aside from those, though, offensive pressure is definitely a good way of dealing with the set; Xern needs to be able to come in on something it threatens in order to live and start its ramp up process, so putting it on the back foot does a lot to mitigate its impact and give you room to breathe. It has a ton of utility and flexibility, but at its core, Metrosexual is a hybrid mid-late game cleaner/breaker. The nature of this set means it generally wants to come in on very safe targets and is wary of quite a lot, so it's also to some extent pretty reliant on scouting and won't be jumping in from the get-go. It especially relies on having a rapid spin already up by the time a usually-faster threat comes in in order to deal with them, as well. Making sure you don't let it come in for free or maintain momentum are good ways to deal with it.

Status: Metrosexual hates Cramorant. A lot. Honestly, any offensive mon that isn't status-based (Poison Heal, Quick Feet, etc), Electric type, or carrying Jungle Healing hates that damn pelican. Mons that can stomach a hit and cripple with nuzzle are a pain as well. Aromatherapy is generally pretty annoying/hard to fit onto BH teams, so if you get hit with status, your momentum's dead in the water. Burns can also be annoying for mixed sets, and the passive damage over time can stall out strength sap pretty easily if you're able to keep yourself alive.

Item: Metrosexual will still have a lot of utility without its item, but Metronome is a key part of what makes this set so threatening. Depending on the moveset, it can be a potent offensive threat even without any ramping, but without the item, it definitely isn't as powerful. Koff is already a hugely valuable move that isn't very hard to slot onto a team, so make use of it.

Set Specific Counters: This is where things get more specific. With regard to Ho-Oh as a viable counter, this would only be after scouting its set. While the most common moveset consists of Boomburst / Utility or coverage / Strength Sap / Rapid Spin, it can easily run a plethora of moves in that free slot, and other variations like Espeed or madlad Stresh's V Create + Rend set can take you off guard. Imposter is a pretty good way of finding out what it has, considering how good it is at scouting. Try to bring it in with a pivot from a mon that can somewhat tank a hit from Xern, so you're not at risk of getting outsped following a Rapid Spin on the switch. Mixed Boomburst / Rend is a large part of why Ho-Oh is terrified of Xern now, with moves like Thunder Cage also serving as big threats. If it's not carrying those, though, Ho-Oh's definitely one of its best checks. Many Espeed variants will have to sacrifice some other core part of its kit in the form of rapid spin speed/utility, coverage, or even Sap healing, so how you deal with that will depend on the exact moveset; barring coverage, a bulky steel can do a decent job (Zam's scared though because of that neutral damage, so is Dialga.) Zac-C can actually be a decent switch-in if it doesn't have a speed boost already, only taking a max of 33% from unboosted Boomburst and being able to threaten an OHKO. Every variation of this mon makes a pretty sizable sacrifice in one way or another, so its specifics are largely down to personal preference and the team it's being used on. Sorry if this part isn't too helpful, but this set really does have an ungodly amount of flexibility, and can't really be fully 300% countered in any single way. It sort of suffers from a kind of 4MSS in that it wants to run so many different moves all at once but can only have one particular combination of them in a given game.

Given how much I enjoy this set, I'm of course going to suggest you give it a whirl yourself, but yeah, there's a good number of options for playing around it. Definitely strong, but it can be dealt with in reasonable fashion.

Ho-Oh is able to take several boombursts even after a couple metronome boosts (edit: did a damage calc I hadn't thought to do before and ho-oh is unlikely to be ko'd even by two fully metronomed boombursts), and is also just pretty useful in general. I've actually only gone against that kind of xerneas once or twice with the team I'm currently experimenting with, but I was able to rebuff it with:

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Parting Shot
- Strength Sap
- Defog

Ho-Oh @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Dragon Ascent
- Glacial Lance
- Earthquake

I hard switch into registeel, parting shot (to protect v-create's defense drop) into ho-oh, and use v-create either to 2HKO Xerneas or give whatever switches in a solid smacking. (Scarf + Jolly ho-oh outspeeds even after a rapid spin boost)

Conceptually: Anything with special bulk, fairy resistance and hard-hitting STAB/supereffective move. Zacian-C seems like an even more direct and also (maybe) more commonly used counter, but I don't use it so idk.

Generally, your Regenerator mon wants to run some pivot, so U-Turn should probably be used on that set. For another thing, barring Magic Bounce, any Ho-Oh that switches into a healthy Metrosexual is going to be easily stuffed.

252 Atk Ho-Oh V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 240-283 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 312-368 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Keep in mind that even in the second scenario which does massive damage but still doesn't ohko without a good bit of chip, it's MG LO boosted Ho-Oh. Regen lacks that power, and VC is going to damage your ability to outspeed Xern, while also getting its power lessened by Sap as Xern heals to full. Yes, you can slap even +1 Xern once it's ~60% or lower, but that's a pretty specific scenario and you need to be aware of it. Even if you've scouted that they don't have Rend, Cage, etc, you won't be doing too much to it until you have it already heavily weakened.

 

[dragonlordxxslayer]

since no ones posted in a while I'm going to bring up the discussion topic of weather/terrain/trick room viability ( I'm going to call them battle effects or BEs for short)

after some experimenting I'm going to rank them in terms of usefulness and usability as something might be really useful but hard to fit on teams.

1. Trick room
this is probably the BE as all your slow heavy hitters/Chonkers outspeed everything and can wipe someone unprepared
2. Misty terrain
this is the best terrain, as you get an immunity to status and everyone now has a pseudo- dragon resist( poison healers hate not getting their effect)
3. Rain
fishous rend go brrr. also the pseudo- fire resist is cool against ho-oh and the like. also double speed in (insert weather here) is never bad
4. sun
same as rain but since it doesn't have OP move with no drawbacks it falls behind slightly
5. psychic terrain
triage/prankster/priority moves hate him. pranksters moves failing on dark types now applies to everything. hidden power is better as cheese so there's that
6. grassy terrain
tanky mons are now tankier thanks to a bonus leftovers heal at the end of a turn
7. sandstorm
to me this is the least useful weather in bh when the primordial weathers exist and you have hp based moves like water spout and this doesn't boost any of them. idk maybe im not using this correctly
8. electric terrain
bolt beak is banned so its best abuser is out. I guess an immunity to spore is nice

the primordial weathers just got grouped in with thier corresponding weather and I've yet to do a deep enough dive into delta stream

notable items
terrain extender/weather rocks
8 turns is LONG time

edit: forgot hail exists it'd probably be above grassy terrain as aurora veil is an excellent move and boosted GLance is never bad

 

[XxBigGuy89xX]

boozted GLance

Does hail boost ice-type moves??

 

[dragonlordxxslayer]

Does hail boost ice-type moves??

just checked serebii
apparently hail doesn't boost ice moves but just found out aurora veil decreases both damage types by 50% which is really good(with light clay it lasts 8 turns so there's no reason to not have it up 100% of the time). id keep above grassy terrain. also would anyone change the ranking in any way or do you think their good the way they are?

 

[cityscapes]

also would anyone change the ranking in any way or do you think their good the way they are?

my thoughts:

- trick room is generally pretty terrible especially full tr. in bh most of the strongest offensive mons are pretty fast, and even they can be walled out. in practice if you roll up with some staka/calyrex ice/xurk type thing you lose to gira zamac walling you out and you also lose to fast mons because you need to click trick room every 4 turns and your guys have no recovery. pretty much you need to go for a faster game pace but this can be really unfeasible in a lot of matchups.

- misty terrain is nice cause u own cramorant and u dab on stupid dragon energy pokemon that i hate

- not a huge fan of rain personally cause you pretty much have to go all out offensive which comes with the risk of losing to desolate land, specific fc/scales resists, and on some occasions cram, but fire resist is pretty decent and u could definitely do worse

- suns cool cause u can play around with solar power which has negative counterplay, but its also very volatile and unreliable. again not a big fan of these types of teams

- psychic terrain is decent. dont know what you meant by "hidden power is better as cheese" but psychic does have access to a cool move in photon which means you cant really be walled by fc/scales and dark types are pretty rare so you can have some fun. the biggest issue is no good physical psychics in the game, mewtwo is fine on the special side but your physical options are offensive solg/dusk mane, jolly gallade, and azelf which are pretty terrible. also you still lose to cram and like, zacc and phero too

- NEVER USE AURORA VEIL OFFENSE. it can be court changed which is quite literally an instant loss for the type of veil offenses youd want to build. from there your best option is having some really weird veil balance with the idea of not losing to offensive threats and confronting opposing court change with your own court change offensive mon which is incredibly crunchy. as for non veil, hail stall is probably decent (need a bell user for sure tho) while hail balance makes no sense cause no shed to kill

- grassy terrain is a weird one. never use choiced grassy terrain, you lose to fc giratina unless you run exeggutor-a which also in fact loses to fc giratina. probably better to have some sort of triage setup with horn leech/giga drain in mind, probably one grass and one of something else so maybe something funny like ghost memory horn leech/drain punch/sd dhelmise + np draining kiss scald giga xern although this looks extremely dumb. the hp regen is kind of cool but i hate not being able to chip my opponents, can be really annoying to make progress

- sand is kinda cool as you do actually have a rock that typically cant get countered (mg terrak) so you can kinda go from there and abuse spdef boosts and have fun. you beat both ph normals and xern which is pretty cool. biggest threat is zamac giratina type stuff so u could try adding in some specs adapt spectrier or just try and wisp everyone so terrak comes in lives a hit and wins. i think this is better than grassy terrain and maybe hail

- electric terrain is almost definitely better than grassy terrain, yes it was stupid with bolt beak but you still have very reasonable abusers with bolt strike zekrom, zera, and misc unstabbed guys like fairies and stuff. theres also definitely potential with surge surfer and maybe some sort of triage user or poison heal to clean up games. pretty decent

 

[Codename C.A.T]

Does hail boost ice-type moves??

no

 

[MinoGod54]

hi, can i share here a Balanced Hackmons team for having some advices?

 

[Lunatic Hai]

hi, can i share here a Balanced Hackmons team for having some advices?

You could make a thread for an RMT, but if you're still in the building process then this is a good place to ask for advice.

 

[MinoGod54]

okay thank u :3
so i was trying to build against these two pokemon:
https://pokepast.es/909be87988549d69
i didnt played the tier since WCoOMs so i didnt really know what is good

 

[Redchimp]

okay thank u :3
so i was trying to build against these two pokemon:
https://pokepast.es/909be87988549d69
i didnt played the tier since WCoOMs so i didnt really know what is good

ok so i can only see the Cramorant and Necrozma-Dawn so I'll speak on that.

I can't really critique the Necrozma Dawn as I'm just not that good at BH, however I really want to ask why Fishous Rend on cramorant? It seems you want cramorant to spread just a bit of status throughout the game and survive for one big hit with endure on a big threat, however if that is the case then why have an offensive move like Fishous Rend? A move like Taunt or Court Change would be much better for controlling the pace of the game. Also Shore Up may be a better alternative to Roost as Shore Up can be boosted in rain and Roost is very prediction heavy, also most electric moves are gonna one tap you anyways. I would calc some common threats like Zekrom, Regileki, and

 

[dragonlordxxslayer]

my thoughts:

- trick room is generally pretty terrible especially full tr. in bh most of the strongest offensive mons are pretty fast, and even they can be walled out. in practice if you roll up with some staka/calyrex ice/xurk type thing you lose to gira zamac walling you out and you also lose to fast mons because you need to click trick room every 4 turns and your guys have no recovery. pretty much you need to go for a faster game pace but this can be really unfeasible in a lot of matchups.

- misty terrain is nice cause u own cramorant and u dab on stupid dragon energy pokemon that i hate

- not a huge fan of rain personally cause you pretty much have to go all out offensive which comes with the risk of losing to desolate land, specific fc/scales resists, and on some occasions cram, but fire resist is pretty decent and u could definitely do worse

- suns cool cause u can play around with solar power which has negative counterplay, but its also very volatile and unreliable. again not a big fan of these types of teams

- psychic terrain is decent. dont know what you meant by "hidden power is better as cheese" but psychic does have access to a cool move in photon which means you cant really be walled by fc/scales and dark types are pretty rare so you can have some fun. the biggest issue is no good physical psychics in the game, mewtwo is fine on the special side but your physical options are offensive solg/dusk mane, jolly gallade, and azelf which are pretty terrible. also you still lose to cram and like, zacc and phero too

- NEVER USE AURORA VEIL OFFENSE. it can be court changed which is quite literally an instant loss for the type of veil offenses youd want to build. from there your best option is having some really weird veil balance with the idea of not losing to offensive threats and confronting opposing court change with your own court change offensive mon which is incredibly crunchy. as for non veil, hail stall is probably decent (need a bell user for sure tho) while hail balance makes no sense cause no shed to kill

- grassy terrain is a weird one. never use choiced grassy terrain, you lose to fc giratina unless you run exeggutor-a which also in fact loses to fc giratina. probably better to have some sort of triage setup with horn leech/giga drain in mind, probably one grass and one of something else so maybe something funny like ghost memory horn leech/drain punch/sd dhelmise + np draining kiss scald giga xern although this looks extremely dumb. the hp regen is kind of cool but i hate not being able to chip my opponents, can be really annoying to make progress

- sand is kinda cool as you do actually have a rock that typically cant get countered (mg terrak) so you can kinda go from there and abuse spdef boosts and have fun. you beat both ph normals and xern which is pretty cool. biggest threat is zamac giratina type stuff so u could try adding in some specs adapt spectrier or just try and wisp everyone so terrak comes in lives a hit and wins. i think this is better than grassy terrain and maybe hail

- electric terrain is almost definitely better than grassy terrain, yes it was stupid with bolt beak but you still have very reasonable abusers with bolt strike zekrom, zera, and misc unstabbed guys like fairies and stuff. theres also definitely potential with surge surfer and maybe some sort of triage user or poison heal to clean up games. pretty decent

yah you made some good points

- i think my experience with TR is a bit skewed cause i mostly used it low ladder to low mid. as you make some pretty good points.

- i agree with misty as thats the feeling if cram doesnt run defog and yeet you into depression

- weather teams tend to have a lot of weaknesses in this tier which makes them hard to run but if the opponent doesnt have DLand/PSea then its pretty decent usually.

-psychic is pretty mediocre since you dab all over triage/prankster but you lose to faster mons(this can be gotten around by using fast mons) and sorry I meant stored power cheese as now it deals more ridiculous amounts of damage.

- hail is the best weather for low ladder as most teams arent prepared for it but it gets worse as you get higher up the ladder.

- yep grassy is weird but remember while the opponent is harder to kill so are you and grassy just always feels like the most gimmicky weird Terrain in all OM's in my experience

- in terms of electric terrain you make good points but id like to remind you about about ground types and their dumbness. but boltbeam ftw also just remembered xurkitree exists so a set that gives it good speed could end up being broken.

- what is mg terrak first of all and otherwise no comment wholeheartedly agree.

 

[MinoGod54]

okay thank you redchimp, as you said i changed my cramorant set, but i dont see which mons can i add in my team. maybe a mon with uturn for doing a voltturn core with ndw or something that can kill RegenVests and darks for ndw. what do you think about a zacian crowned with Sunsteel Strike, Play Rough, uturn and glance/vcreate?

 

[Redchimp]

okay thank you redchimp, as you said i changed my cramorant set, but i dont see which mons can i add in my team. maybe a mon with uturn for doing a voltturn core with ndw or something that can kill RegenVests and darks for ndw. what do you think about a zacian crowned with Sunsteel Strike, Play Rough, uturn and glance/vcreate?

well i don't quite see the usage of Uturn. In BH it seems U-Turn is best used when you KNOW when you will move, either first as a fast attacker or second as a slow wall. Besides Flip Turn on Cramorant you need to know this as Cramorant uses flip turn for a different use (restoring gorging form). V-Create is the move I see more as it helps it counter things like Zamazenta-C, Magearna, and Necrozma Dusk, however Precipice blades is also used to counter those as well as threats like Kyurem forms. Generally Steel isn't even brought on Zacian as well, as steel is really on useful on Calyrex-Ice and Shadow, and Necrozma Dawn, all of which aren't too common. My perferred set for Zacian is PBlades, VCreate, Play Rough, and Bolt strike, with the electric added on for threats like toxapex, ensuring a one hit KO on a swap into cramorant, potential Kyogres, although they are not too often, and Yveltal, although Play rough will generally be better unless it is a serene grace flinch and you want the potential para. While using Zacian-C it is important to recognize that it is one of few coutners to Metroxern thanks to it's steel/fairy typing and should be used to help take it down, which is a big supporting reason TO bring a steel type move. While using Zacian-C just make sure you keep it healthy for as long as possible while remaining on the field as much as possible, as Zacian-C still hits like a truck even though it is stuck with it's ability.

 

[MinoGod54]

Yes I see (in the meta before the dlc 1 zacian was often played with Sunsteel Strike , I do not have to be adapted. ) but I don’t find that toxa is played in the tier (Tapu fini is more played ig) so imo bolt strike is not very useful. Also Fishious can just as well touch ho-oh more reliably and powerfully, and vcreate will be able to handle the flying pokemon that may come on Fishious. so I don’t find it useful to put two coverage attacks to hit the steels (vcreate is enough) so you can remove pblades for something like Power Whip, StrengthSap or Shore Up

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'm really loving magic guard + life orb on all sorts of mons and I think it's highly underated considering I barely ever see it. It's also one of the best ways to maximize volt tackle's potential and kill waters who are so hard to realiably hit hard since bolt beak ban.

Calyrex-Ice @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Glacial Lance
- Volt Tackle
- Thousand Waves
- Slack Off

Calyrex is an amazing user of magic guard and uses the ability both offensively and defensively. This set's raw power, amazing coverage and capacity to improof itself through trapping makes it extremly hard to switch into and works ridiculously well when combined with para spreaders such as cramorant that compensate for calyrex's low speed. Glacial Lance + Life orb 2hkos nearly everything that doesn't resist it and volt tackle and thousand waves hit basicaly everything that resist glacial lance for super effective damage. Fur coat is one of the only ways to safely switch into calyrex. Calyrex's best counter is probably itself, which is why you use thousand waves to trap chansey (and volt tackle + slack off to pp stall). Unfortunately, this comes with a 41% chance your own calyrex will be paralyzed by chansey's 5 volt tackles, but the chance that will lead to a kill are very slim. Thousand waves also traps regenerator users stopping the hard switch and often leading to a kill if the opposing mon is paralyzed.

On top of that, Calyrex has a fairly large defensive niche that pairs well with cramorant with it's amazing defensive stats and resistance to ice without being weak to fighting, ground, water or electric. Calyrex's defensive properties are further boosted by the fact it's immune to hazards, binding damage and toxic. You will want to prepare for knock off and strength sap (especialy when combined with trapping) and play safely as long as they could still be revealed as they are the best ways to shut down this set.

A similar kyurem-b set can be used if you don't want to pack paralyze or would rather run sticky web. However, it doesn't pack the same defensive properties and doesn't improof itself (probably does with strength sap over slack off but it should be tested).

 

[Lunatic Hai]

ok so i can only see the Cramorant and Necrozma-Dawn so I'll speak on that.

I can't really critique the Necrozma Dawn as I'm just not that good at BH, however I really want to ask why Fishous Rend on cramorant? It seems you want cramorant to spread just a bit of status throughout the game and survive for one big hit with endure on a big threat, however if that is the case then why have an offensive move like Fishous Rend? A move like Taunt or Court Change would be much better for controlling the pace of the game. Also Shore Up may be a better alternative to Roost as Shore Up can be boosted in rain and Roost is very prediction heavy, also most electric moves are gonna one tap you anyways. I would calc some common threats like Zekrom, Regileki, and

Fishious Rend is entirely viable on Cram. The brainless pelican is able to hit surprisingly hard with that move, especially if it's managed to para something. Taunt and Court Change are both definitely good, but Shore Up doesn't benefit Cram unless you're running a sand team, in which case you either get chipped or have to sacrifice Rocky Helmet or occasional HDB for goggles; there is no healing move that's boosted in rain.

okay thank you redchimp, as you said i changed my cramorant set, but i dont see which mons can i add in my team. maybe a mon with uturn for doing a voltturn core with ndw or something that can kill RegenVests and darks for ndw. what do you think about a zacian crowned with Sunsteel Strike, Play Rough, uturn and glance/vcreate?

A Zac-C set without some form of healing is kind of yikes, honestly, especially given the presence of Cram nowadays. Even before, Sap was all but mandatory on Zac-C without Wish support. Jungle Healing is another really good move, since you can heal up and undo Cram's shenanigans. A 4 attack core just isn't that good for a mon like Zacian. Hazards are another very good option to add onto it. There's also the really annoying Imprison / Anchor/ Transform set. Whereas MRay was the kind of offensive mon that mostly just clicked funny nuke buttons, Zac-C is generally best as a flexible offensive threat with utility.
Also, in my experience, Lunala >>> NDW. Admittedly, this was earlier in Gen 8; Lunala was unusually tanky for an offensive mon and was huge in that it outsped the Unova dragons. Now there's mons like Palkia that are able to outspeed even Lunala, which means NDW is gonna be even slower by comparison. If you insist on running it, speed control is gonna be a big concern. Try using Cram, Nuzzle/Glare spam, or even webs. But if you want a good special wallbreaker that can deal with scales mons, I suggest Metronome Pixilate Xerneas. I'm a shill for this mon and its great qualities are numerous, but long story short it's a wallbreaker that can also function as a hazard clearer, mixed threat, pseudo setup sweeper, hazard setter, etc. depending on the moveset you run for it. Mixed mons are extremely threatening and in a good number of cases can offer more than dedicated mons to either side, since they're not as easily stuffed by fur/scales. Another good mixed mon is Palkia; Lustrous Orb Adaptability is fat as hell.

well i don't quite see the usage of Uturn. In BH it seems U-Turn is best used when you KNOW when you will move, either first as a fast attacker or second as a slow wall. Besides Flip Turn on Cramorant you need to know this as Cramorant uses flip turn for a different use (restoring gorging form). V-Create is the move I see more as it helps it counter things like Zamazenta-C, Magearna, and Necrozma Dusk, however Precipice blades is also used to counter those as well as threats like Kyurem forms. Generally Steel isn't even brought on Zacian as well, as steel is really on useful on Calyrex-Ice and Shadow, and Necrozma Dawn, all of which aren't too common. My perferred set for Zacian is PBlades, VCreate, Play Rough, and Bolt strike, with the electric added on for threats like toxapex, ensuring a one hit KO on a swap into cramorant, potential Kyogres, although they are not too often, and Yveltal, although Play rough will generally be better unless it is a serene grace flinch and you want the potential para. While using Zacian-C it is important to recognize that it is one of few coutners to Metroxern thanks to it's steel/fairy typing and should be used to help take it down, which is a big supporting reason TO bring a steel type move. While using Zacian-C just make sure you keep it healthy for as long as possible while remaining on the field as much as possible, as Zacian-C still hits like a truck even though it is stuck with it's ability.

U-Turn isn't as ubiquitous as before, but not for these reasons. Cram could use U-Turn to restore gorging (it only needs to switch out and back in do so), but Flip Turn's usually better because of the extra chip from STAB. U-Turn is less common because while Volt was already an alternative, we now have Flip Turn, and Teleport, the latter of which has negative priority and thus is more reliable as a form of slow pivoting. As mentioned before, 4 attack Zacc sucks compared to others that pack utility and/or longevity. If you're gonna run an all-out offensive Zacian, at least run Glance, because Zygod and Tina aren't gonna care all too much about Play Rough. Then again, Glance kinda removed FC Zygod from the equation, so you might be able to get away with that. Either way, you definitely want some non-attacking move on it. Additionally, Zac-C isn't gonna handle Metro Xern well at all without some chip. More often than not, Metrosexual users will preemptively Rapid Spin in order to get their drip deer to a point where it outspeeds Zac-C. If that happens, you're likely getting slapped by a coverage move on the switch. On top of that, Zac-C doesn't OHKO without a solid bit of chip, and Metrosexual is a mon that the user will generally try to keep very healthy.

252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 326-386 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You're not killing it if it outspeeds you, since it'll just gradually sap you down to the point of becoming a nonthreat. If you switch out, you just give it free reign to do as it pleases again. Just remember this so you don't just throw away your Zac-C in an attempt to handle drip deer.

 

[XxBigGuy89xX]

Anyone have an idea of how to improof this?

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Glacial Lance

 

[Redchimp]

Fishious Rend is entirely viable on Cram. The brainless pelican is able to hit surprisingly hard with that move, especially if it's managed to para something. Taunt and Court Change are both definitely good, but Shore Up doesn't benefit Cram unless you're running a sand team, in which case you either get chipped or have to sacrifice Rocky Helmet or occasional HDB for goggles; there is no healing move that's boosted in rain.



A Zac-C set without some form of healing is kind of yikes, honestly, especially given the presence of Cram nowadays. Even before, Sap was all but mandatory on Zac-C without Wish support. Jungle Healing is another really good move, since you can heal up and undo Cram's shenanigans. A 4 attack core just isn't that good for a mon like Zacian. Hazards are another very good option to add onto it. There's also the really annoying Imprison / Anchor/ Transform set. Whereas MRay was the kind of offensive mon that mostly just clicked funny nuke buttons, Zac-C is generally best as a flexible offensive threat with utility.
Also, in my experience, Lunala >>> NDW. Admittedly, this was earlier in Gen 8; Lunala was unusually tanky for an offensive mon and was huge in that it outsped the Unova dragons. Now there's mons like Palkia that are able to outspeed even Lunala, which means NDW is gonna be even slower by comparison. If you insist on running it, speed control is gonna be a big concern. Try using Cram, Nuzzle/Glare spam, or even webs. But if you want a good special wallbreaker that can deal with scales mons, I suggest Metronome Pixilate Xerneas. I'm a shill for this mon and its great qualities are numerous, but long story short it's a wallbreaker that can also function as a hazard clearer, mixed threat, pseudo setup sweeper, hazard setter, etc. depending on the moveset you run for it. Mixed mons are extremely threatening and in a good number of cases can offer more than dedicated mons to either side, since they're not as easily stuffed by fur/scales. Another good mixed mon is Palkia; Lustrous Orb Adaptability is fat as hell.



U-Turn isn't as ubiquitous as before, but not for these reasons. Cram could use U-Turn to restore gorging (it only needs to switch out and back in do so), but Flip Turn's usually better because of the extra chip from STAB. U-Turn is less common because while Volt was already an alternative, we now have Flip Turn, and Teleport, the latter of which has negative priority and thus is more reliable as a form of slow pivoting. As mentioned before, 4 attack Zacc sucks compared to others that pack utility and/or longevity. If you're gonna run an all-out offensive Zacian, at least run Glance, because Zygod and Tina aren't gonna care all too much about Play Rough. Then again, Glance kinda removed FC Zygod from the equation, so you might be able to get away with that. Either way, you definitely want some non-attacking move on it. Additionally, Zac-C isn't gonna handle Metro Xern well at all without some chip. More often than not, Metrosexual users will preemptively Rapid Spin in order to get their drip deer to a point where it outspeeds Zac-C. If that happens, you're likely getting slapped by a coverage move on the switch. On top of that, Zac-C doesn't OHKO without a solid bit of chip, and Metrosexual is a mon that the user will generally try to keep very healthy.

252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 326-386 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You're not killing it if it outspeeds you, since it'll just gradually sap you down to the point of becoming a nonthreat. If you switch out, you just give it free reign to do as it pleases again. Just remember this so you don't just throw away your Zac-C in an attempt to handle drip deer.

ah see the reason I don't run GLance is because I usually run an adaptability banded groudon with pblades and glance. I would 100% reccomend if you don't have something with the role of that.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Anyone have an idea of how to improof this?

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Glacial Lance

I'd suggest running a Fur Coat Giratina or a FF/PSea steel, most likely Zamazenta-C.

 

[MinoGod54]

Anyone have an idea of how to improof this?

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Glacial Lance

i dont calc but maybe Palkia with poison heal can improof? or just something like Primordial Sea ig

 

[Ace Roll]

I'm really loving magic guard + life orb on all sorts of mons and I think it's highly underated considering I barely ever see it. It's also one of the best ways to maximize volt tackle's potential and kill waters who are so hard to realiably hit hard since bolt beak ban.

Calyrex-Ice @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Glacial Lance
- Volt Tackle
- Thousand Waves
- Slack Off

Calyrex is an amazing user of magic guard and uses the ability both offensively and defensively. This set's raw power, amazing coverage and capacity to improof itself through trapping makes it extremly hard to switch into and works ridiculously well when combined with para spreaders such as cramorant that compensate for calyrex's low speed. Glacial Lance + Life orb 2hkos nearly everything that doesn't resist it and volt tackle and thousand waves hit basicaly everything that resist glacial lance for super effective damage. Fur coat is one of the only ways to safely switch into calyrex. Calyrex's best counter is probably itself, which is why you use thousand waves to trap chansey (and volt tackle + slack off to pp stall). Unforltunately, this comes with a 41% chance your own calyrex will be paralyzed by chansey's 5 volt tackles, but the chance that will lead to a kill are very slim. Thousand waves also traps regenerator users stopping the hard switch and often leading to a kill if the opposing mon is paralyzed.

On top of that, Calyrex has a fairly large defensive niche that pairs well with cramorant with it's amazing defensive stats and resistance to ice without being weak to fighting, ground, water or electric. Calyrex's defensive properties are further boosted by the fact it's immune to hazards, binding damage and toxic. You will want to prepare for knock off and strength sap (especialy when combined with trapping) and play safely as long as they could still be revealed as they are the best ways to shut down this set.

A similar kyurem-b set can be used if you don't want to pack paralyze or would rather run sticky web. However, it doesn't pack the same defensive properties and doesn't improof itself (probably does with strength sap over slack off but it should be tested).

I have played with and faced multiple of those sets, but that calyrex set might be the strongest thus far. They have a very niche role and can easily get shut down by status (scald, will o wisp), core enforcer and fur coat mons. Knock off is also a pain as the power creep is real and most of the times even with life orb you fail to 2 hit KO or even 1 hit KO with +1 or even +2 vs FC mons.

Tyranitar @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash/wicked blow
- High Jump Kick
- Shift Gear
- Glacial Lance

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina on a critical hit: 549-647 (108.9 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 377-445 (97.1 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Zekrom @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Volt Tackle
- Flare Blitz/high jump kick/thundurus kick
- Dragon Darts/hazzard/taunt
- Strength Sap/recover

252 Atk Life Orb Zekrom Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 439-517 (105.5 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Zekrom Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre: 439-517 (108.6 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Zekrom Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 231-274 (50.6 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 2 hit KO on rash xern.

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/jolly Nature
- Head Smash/taunt/recover
- High Jump Kick
- Dragon Dance/taunt/recover/flip turn
- Glacial Lance

Fails to KO most mons, even after +1 (except non FC zama and melmetal).

Groudon @ Life Orb (not fully tested)
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows/thousand waves/Precipice miss
- Glacial Lance
- Flare Blitz/volt tackle
- Shift Gear/recover

It hurts me to see no good and viable groudon sets, even 1/2 year after DLC dropped. With its 150 base attack and +1 it is usually just shy of OKing the bulky "meta" mons.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 426-504 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 390-460 (100.5 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Groudon Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ho-Oh: 322-380 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Groudon Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 273-322 (79.3 - 93.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Groudon Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 520-614 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Buzzwole @ Rocky Helmet/leftover/hdb (very good fur coat mon vs these MG + life orb users and in general)
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Roost
- Drain Punch/knock off
- Spectral Thief/knock off/filler
- U-turn

Then there are also special attackers (heatran/dialga), but shallow movepool where you dont hit a broad spectrum and lack of pps.

Heatran @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steel Beam
- Mind Blown
- Strength Sap/recover
- Quiver Dance/filler

Very good typing, but its 2 moves can easily get completely walled by certain mons like reshiram, palkia, zekrom etc etc and even timid +1 speed is only 417.

Lastly there is ofc Pheromosa, but I feel most people know about it and feel it is too much of a glass cannon: (something to note: base 90 mons can outspeed with scarf + speed nature and also rash/mild xern/yveltal).

Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Mind Blown
- Glacial Lance
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn/filler


All this being said, they can pair very well with tinted lens Kartana and teravolt Kyurem-B with respectable attack that can pressure and beat fur coat mons:

Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Power Whip/glacial lance
- U-turn
- Fishious Rend/filler

Kyurem-B @ Choice Band / Life orb
Ability: Teravolt/Mold breaker
EVS: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/jolly Nature
- Glacial Lance
- Dragon darts/Bolt strike/filler
- U-turn/flip turn
- Precipice miss/thousand waves/filler