BH Balanced Hackmons

[Tea Guzzler]

How does one actually beat imposter Chansey? Defensive teams get eaten by abusing your own regenerator and healing moves over and over with infinite pp and set up sweepers get utterly shut down by it as well. I've lost multiple games thanks to Chansey's running spooky plate specifically to counter any counterplay it might have. I feel like I'm at a loss on how to beat this thing

As rightclicker says, the word here is improofing. This means that you're building your team with your own sets in mind in order to minimize how much utility Imposter users can gain from copying them. Some examples are:

• Wallbreakers with exploitable or no recovery, such as Choice Band users (common ones like Kyurem-B and Mega Garchomp can hit Imposter users with super-effective STAB, hindering Imposter's ability to scout). Be sure that you have teammates that can reliably wall Impostered variants of these.
• Plate + Judgment (self-explanatory; Spooky Plate is the only Plate Imposter you're ever running into, and even this is quite rare)
• Things that naturally beat Imposter (most notably Take Heart Arceus; ties in with Judgment a lot, but you can win the 1v1 off of Thunder Cage and Strength Sap HP% differences provided you start at decent HP)
• Defensive options that can readily punish Imposter from switching in (Knock Off, Salt Cure, Mortal Spin etc; note that this can vary by team, ie. if you're running hard stall then usually Imposter doesn't really care that much if it loses Eviolite to force a Knock trade). Attempting to minimize how much they can reverse this punishment is also useful (such as with Knock Off immunities or Magic Guard).
• Strength Sap + Sapblockers - can void Imposter's ability to heal even if you can't beat it one-on-one with the thing it copied.
• Trapping - either partial (Thunder Cage; Take Heart Arceus on most team styles) or full (Mean Look or Spirit Shackle; mostly stall). Shed Shell Imposter is not common at all.

The most important thing offensively is not to take losing battles; if Imposter copies something like a setup Kyurem-B, then there's realistically no point to try and contest it in 9/10 cases, because it'll be the one winning. The only real reasons to do this are if winning the Speed-tie is the only way to get back in the game, if you intend to sack, or if winning is guaranteed no matter what happens. Defensively, ensuring that your mons aren't just completely free windows to spam Recover is key.

 

[IAMLEGENDhalo]

As rightclicker says, the word here is improofing. This means that you're building your team with your own sets in mind in order to minimize how much utility Imposter users can gain from copying them. Some examples are:

• Wallbreakers with exploitable or no recovery, such as Choice Band users (common ones like Kyurem-B and Mega Garchomp can hit Imposter users with super-effective STAB, hindering Imposter's ability to scout). Be sure that you have teammates that can reliably wall Impostered variants of these.
• Plate + Judgment (self-explanatory; Spooky Plate is the only Plate Imposter you're ever running into, and even this is quite rare)
• Things that naturally beat Imposter (most notably Take Heart Arceus; ties in with Judgment a lot, but you can win the 1v1 off of Thunder Cage and Strength Sap HP% differences provided you start at decent HP)
• Defensive options that can readily punish Imposter from switching in (Knock Off, Salt Cure, Mortal Spin etc; note that this can vary by team, ie. if you're running hard stall then usually Imposter doesn't really care that much if it loses Eviolite to force a Knock trade). Attempting to minimize how much they can reverse this punishment is also useful (such as with Knock Off immunities or Magic Guard).
• Strength Sap + Sapblockers - can void Imposter's ability to heal even if you can't beat it one-on-one with the thing it copied.
• Trapping - either partial (Thunder Cage; Take Heart Arceus on most team styles) or full (Mean Look or Spirit Shackle; mostly stall). Shed Shell Imposter is not common at all.

The most important thing offensively is not to take losing battles; if Imposter copies something like a setup Kyurem-B, then there's realistically no point to try and contest it in 9/10 cases, because it'll be the one winning. The only real reasons to do this are if winning the Speed-tie is the only way to get back in the game, if you intend to sack, or if winning is guaranteed no matter what happens. Defensively, ensuring that your mons aren't just completely free windows to spam Recover is key.

I get imposter proofing but is there no one pokemon Chansey can just switch into and not counter like that without it resulting in both just sitting there doing nothing? No true counter?

 

[Tea Guzzler]

I get imposter proofing but is there no one pokemon Chansey can just switch into and not counter like that without it resulting in both just sitting there doing nothing? No true counter?

There's a lot that Chansey can't counter:

• Take Heart Arceus almost always beats Imposter one-on-one
• Spooky Plate attackers are fine against the majority of Chansey sets
• Basically any attacker that hits itself very hard, usually with either super effective STABs or coverage it wanted to run anyway (but rarely just raw damage output) (Kyurem-B, Mega Garchomp, Eternatus, Ultra Necrozma, Mega Lucario, Mega Diancie, Palkia-O, Flutter Mane, Ash-Greninja, etc)
• RegenVest pivots basically always carry utility for Imposter, so while they aren't directly threatening a KO, they are softening it up for something else
• Certain Tidy Up boosters like Arceus-Ground carry Spirit Shackle, which lets them trap and remove Imposter users while getting to +6 at the end of the interaction

Note that check and counter aren't the same thing. Chansey can "check" most things but is almost never a counter in the long-term; for example, it can never reliably switch in on something like a Choice Band Mega Garchomp more than once without healing in between.

 

[IMPERIUM OF MAN]

What I’ve never understood about imposter chansey is how polarizing it is to play against, like, a lot of mons are banned because you gotta build around them or They just provide such an advantage you have to account for them, and when you team build you gotta account for Chansey but no one sees it as a problem, I understand the kind of position Chanseys in as a good tool against a quick roll over. If Chansey was to be banned i seriously think it would cause a lot of problems and would hurt the meta, I’m just saying I never understood why other things that affected team Building in the exact same way chansey does we’re quickly sniffed out and dealt with but chansey never was.

 

[LordBox]

What I’ve never understood about imposter chansey is how polarizing it is to play against, like, a lot of mons are banned because you gotta build around them or They just provide such an advantage you have to account for them, and when you team build you gotta account for Chansey but no one sees it as a problem, I understand the kind of position Chanseys in as a good tool against a quick roll over. If Chansey was to be banned i seriously think it would cause a lot of problems and would hurt the meta, I’m just saying I never understood why other things that affected team Building in the exact same way chansey does we’re quickly sniffed out and dealt with but chansey never was.

Didn't you just answer your own question? It is centralising but its removal would otherwise cause major and irreparable harm to the meta by unleashing the mons shackled by Impostors presence. We have tiering policy this, and guidelines and whatever but ultimately bans, unbans and clauses are all enacted with the goal of making the tier as competitive and fun as it can be. Sure it's centralising but who cares as long as the meta is fun, diverse and competitive and its considered an overall positive presence. It's not like Calyrex Shadow anyway, where oops I need super specific X mon or else I die and maybe I just die to other coverage, it is entirely in your control the harm Impostor Chansey can create and it's generally not that hard to improof a team anyway.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

random metagame post bc i felt like it


Lucario-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Close Combat
- Bolt Strike
- Strength Sap

this has felt pretty middle-of-the-road if i'm honest. main issue it runs into is that, even after LOTC, sunsteel just doesn't really do enough damage to most fur coat arceus, and bolt strike isn't nearly strong enough to 2HKO mbro (even after rocks); this puts lucario in a pretty awkward position since it's not actually beating things like fc arceus-ghost unless they have sap + don't have any moves to prevent being sapblocked. electro drift solves the slowbro situation, but with how strong slowbro is into a lot of the physical attackers at the minute (solos tidy up arcs, forever walls kyub and non-bolt chomp unless you lose 3 consecutive u-turn guesses, helps cover for random stuff like pop bomb and triage), having to not use it in favour of fc mirai (which is not particularly good at the minute) for improofing is less than ideal. stalls that love spamming bulwark also put you in some very uncomfortable spots.


Necrozma-Ultra @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Luster Purge
- Bolt Strike
- Blue Flare
- Magical Torque

it's just mmx but slightly worse? the speed and typing are definite downgrades; you have no good sf dragon stab, you underspeed etern, and you can't just axe kick through annoying stuff like psea registeel that can wall necro in the short-term thanks to bolt strike not reliably 2hkoing +def (and it's also now a roll to 2HKO scales arc from full without hazards). the higher spa does matter as luster purge now guaranteed 2HKOes fc arc, but in general, not having a nuclear bomb of a stab with which to threaten near-OHKOes on neutral targets makes this feel quite a bit more clunky than mmx.


Necrozma-Ultra @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Focus Energy
- Draco Meteor
- Psycho Boost
- V-create

the clunk is real with this one. this is theoretically unwallable thanks to the comical range of calcs sniper allows (there is nothing this does not 2hko) with some absurd ranges like v-create being a roll to OHKO arceus after rocks and psycho boost just straight up deleting it. here is where the problems start though, as your improofing options are dire if you want to not be dodging 50% crits (the resolution i have reached is shell armour mega altaria so you can pretend you have an ash-gren check), and you need to actually get focus energy up without losing scope lens or a lot of health (which against teams with psea registeel you can't really do). in my opinion this isn't really worth the extra effort you have to put in to get non-rng results out of it, especially given that sheer force is right there still 2hkoing arc after rocks.

also if you somehow haven't seen, mega diancie suspect is ending in a few days so get reqs while you can

 

[shadowpea]

i also wanna just ramble a bit

a while after i messed around with lumiya here i realized that vcreate is a 180 bp move which is the same as a stab 120 bp one. and also, through messing with lumiya ive appreciated how fucking terrifying mixed attackers are. so i realized this:
- you really, really do not need to be a fire type to be a primary fire attacker with vc
- fire/psychic/dragon is a terrifying combo to face, and ultra necrozma has the best mixed attacker stats in the tier.

(this is just me talking more about tea's set above btw)
so thats why i threw in the idea of vcreate to that fenergy necro. but then it later clicked to me that the best (or one of the best) mixed booster in the tier is dland growth, which just so happens to give a free 1.5x multiplier on vc:

nuclear fusion (Necrozma-Ultra) @ Life Orb / Mind Plate / Flame Plate
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- V-create
- Psycho Boost
- Glaive Rush
- Growth
this is basically the same deal as the set above. +2 vcreate ohkoes everything not scales, +2 psyboost ohkoes everything not fc, and +2 glaive rush ohkoes guys like scales dragons and kyogre/hooh, which really only leaves odd fc psy resists and fire immunes (though even those you have the option to +2 252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 255-300 (64 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). the problem is, once again, improofing, though ive found that primsea solgaleo works alright - certainly better than shell armor mega altaria LOL. (solg also has 113 spa so i can run scald on that thing and not feel bad about it which is neat). i think this set is better? cause having physical dragon is a nice boon against hooh/kyo, you dont actually have to boost to start doing damage, the improof is somewhat realer and you have a smidge of defensive utility and can be randomly immune to some kyo/slowbro sets which is funny.

anyway yeah vc dumb (didnt even get to the literally everything else that abuses this move), moving on:

toxic thread
so ive thought tthread had a niche for a while and it recently clicked to me that the move has neat synergy with taunt, allowing you to outspeed th arc after they come in on you and taunt them before they th - and you can do heinous things to them if you throw partial trapping in the mix.

immortal smoke (Ho-Oh) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware / Ice Scales
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Toxic Thread
- Taunt
- Recover
really funny th arc answer. if you land thread on them theyre literally forced to leave and keep the poison or you just click magma>taunt>thread and they die (yes you 1v1 tcage variants without much issue). this can probably be optimized (maybe with a steel so youre mortal immune, maybe with something able to run not hdb), though ive been liking hooh cause stab magma lets it scare away steels. heatran hour maybe? might not even outspeed arc after thread LOL cba to check.


think this guy is usable-decent. out of the prominent physical attackers you only really dislike chomp (and necro ig), youre only slightly frailer than bozo, youre resistant to rocks, immune to parahax and has actual pressure with something like knock/wow/tkick. ashgren really dont wanna see you on the other side of the screen and you hardcounter lucario (which is mid anyway imo but whatever).


this guy is in the teambuilder kinda annoying but then in the game really much easier to handle than youd think since its the easiest mon to chip down with helmet in history. and run helmet btw, its so useful for these kinds of things and covert cloak aint everything.

some sets

Palkia-Origin @ Lustrous Globe
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Steam Eruption
- Dragon Energy
- Strength Sap

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Judgment
- Knock Off / Secret Sword
- Strength Sap

mad moon falling (Arceus-Dark) @ Dread Plate
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Judgment
- Rapid Spin
- Strength Sap

ive been loving mg immutable item guys since they just get to ignore so much of what the average ladderer tries to do. these are the guys that i tried but im sure theyre not the only ones, and ive been recently reminded that toxic/flame orb are items (and theres no reason why normal mons cant just run lefties/etc and be awesome anyway). being able to sap is also pretty nice as you dont instantly die when you touch ooze. darkceus is weird and forsure quite niche but is also an epic spinner, softchecks psychic clickers, and gives a really valuable extra layer of defense against ghostspam teams. mg as a whole can probably be experimented with a ton, its really really good to have on the ladder at least and im only a ladder player anyway.


zacian imo is still underrated as fuck. your only real competition is fairyceus which 1. is arceus and 2. we have a handful of dangerous attackers (necro flutter ashgren bikes etc) that zacian benefits hugely from outspeeding - and topsy's readdition makes this only better. you can also run pixilate if you really wanna or like idk dland for funny ashgren answer + funny fire move (have not tried).

things on my to-try list:
- other mg guys (especially the ones on tzaur paste that jawlock gyara looks fire)
- turboblaze ghostceus
- misty surge (probably with said ghostceus)

 

[IMPERIUM OF MAN]

Didn't you just answer your own question? It is centralising but its removal would otherwise cause major and irreparable harm to the meta by unleashing the mons shackled by Impostors presence. We have tiering policy this, and guidelines and whatever but ultimately bans, unbans and clauses are all enacted with the goal of making the tier as competitive and fun as it can be. Sure it's centralising but who cares as long as the meta is fun, diverse and competitive and its considered an overall positive presence. It's not like Calyrex Shadow anyway, where oops I need super specific X mon or else I die and maybe I just die to other coverage, it is entirely in your control the harm Impostor Chansey can create and it's generally not that hard to improof a team anyway.

the point I was trying to illustrate is that defensive treatment and offensive treatment is not even remotely handled the same, everyone keeps saying I don’t know what I’m talking about when I say this meta has become overly defensive focused because the amount of bans to offensive mons with only mediocre choices available.

Garchomp mega requires careful play to use with it being easily KOd to mega diancie, Koraidon is good but requires choice band set to be a full blown offensive wall breaker and even then it’s stab is easily countered by Giratina and mega diancie again, AshGreninja is a good offensive option but again loses to the oppressive diancie mega that checks half the mons in this format. KyuremB is good but again is fodder to mega diancie. Chansey can come in on any offensive set and just wall it, then KO it mostly due to how most wall breakers are dragon type. The bans of most offensive mons just have lead to mons that can serve as a viable replacement to be banned. I mean is it any wonder why Fur coat Is so popular? It’s because now its much more viable to run with most the scary special attackers gone and only some physical attackers remaining. I’ve been talking to players in battles and its leaning toward, “this meta is much more stall oriented“ and “it’s not that big a problem but it’s much more prominent“ now the retort I’m expecting is “what do you want us to do about it?” Well obviously I suggest undoing bans and opening up Pandora’s box and the meta will stabilize over time.

the current situation with OU right now, im hearing “a lot of things are viable and it’s too much” the council for ou doesn’t like it, but people are happy with the current meta in ou, thanks to all the variety that you can build with. a guy named CTC wisely said “stop banning shit. I’m here to play Pokémon not the lack thereof” which I really agree with. If the BH council wants to keep banning shit because it’s centralizing then why is there no action towards the most centralized Pokémon in chansey? And other very defensive strategies for that matter. I mean if I said ban fur coat people would laugh. If I said unban Zacian-C and undo the stupid Reveal species clause people will just say ”we gotta be accurate to cartridge“ even though that’s just silly and could change with the next pokemon title. I could say ban chansey and let people use blissey, I mean not much would change, it’s just that blissey would become the new chansey and wouldn’t be as oppressive. (1.5x in both defs lol and people say that isn’t busted with a 250 base Hp Stat)

(ps I expect this post to get trolled, looking forward to hopefully something original)

 

[Tea Guzzler]

the point I was trying to illustrate is that defensive treatment and offensive treatment is not even remotely handled the same, everyone keeps saying I don’t know what I’m talking about when I say this meta has become overly defensive focused because the amount of bans to offensive mons with only mediocre choices available.

that's... sort of how every tiering has worked ever. offense and defense aren't banned in equal measures just for the sake of having the measures be equal; things are banned when they are broken, and it's hard to argue that any particular defensive option is broken compared to something much more obvious like calyrex-shadow. stall on the whole is the most viable it's ever been, but compared to past generations, that's a pretty low floor; they still have pretty exploitable weaknesses and absolutely don't have the room to be walling every threat they're running into.

Garchomp mega requires careful play to use with it being easily KOd to mega diancie, Koraidon is good but requires choice band set to be a full blown offensive wall breaker and even then it’s stab is easily countered by Giratina and mega diancie again, AshGreninja is a good offensive option but again loses to the oppressive diancie mega that checks half the mons in this format. KyuremB is good but again is fodder to mega diancie. Chansey can come in on any offensive set and just wall it, then KO it mostly due to how most wall breakers are dragon type. The bans of most offensive mons just have lead to mons that can serve as a viable replacement to be banned. I mean is it any wonder why Fur coat Is so popular? It’s because now its much more viable to run with most the scary special attackers gone and only some physical attackers remaining. I’ve been talking to players in battles and its leaning toward, “this meta is much more stall oriented“ and “it’s not that big a problem but it’s much more prominent“ now the retort I’m expecting is “what do you want us to do about it?” Well obviously I suggest undoing bans and opening up Pandora’s box and the meta will stabilize over time.

i really do not follow what you're trying to say here. are you saying mega diancie is broken because it out-offenses all the guys you listed (because if so then that's why we're suspect testing it)? are you saying fur coat is somehow popular because people are using more special breakers than in the past? are you saying koraidon is walled by giratina despite having dragon stab? chansey in and of itself can't just "come in on any offensive set and wall" if you're running mons that don't use recovery, which is the majority of the sets of the offensive things you listed; even with strength sap on these sets, imp isn't exactly willing to come in and potentially take 70 on a prediction + get next to nothing out of the interaction. it isn't bulky enough and unrestricted in its moves enough to do that.

the current situation with OU right now, im hearing “a lot of things are viable and it’s too much” the council for ou doesn’t like it, but people are happy with the current meta in ou, thanks to all the variety that you can build with.

this argument is tangentially related at best but i don't even know what you're trying to prove. imp chansey existing forces you to improof your mons, sure, but for the dumb stupid breakers that you're having to go out of your way to improof, chansey ban as you describe later on wouldn't meaningfully change that; nobody wants to rely on "just win the tie" as their improof regardless of what mon is using imposter. an imp ban on the whole lets daft offensive mons (of which there are many that imp simply existing holds back) run free, and the end result is offense hell; fun if you like offense hell, but rubbish by a competitive standpoint, and the supposed increases in variety wouldn't exactly be welcome.

If the BH council wants to keep banning shit because it’s centralizing then why is there no action towards the most centralized Pokémon in chansey? And other very defensive strategies for that matter.

chansey is centralizing but not broken; you can have centralizing pokemon be legal and not be broken (see OU great tusk, AAA corv, STAB pex, etc). a lot of the stuff we've banned has been broken and possibly also centralizing, and there is a difference between the two. "normal" defensive strategies aren't really either; the only real thing you can argue for here is take heart + furscales arc, and this being broken would most likely be leading to a take heart ban due to arceus formes being tiered individually. stuff like fur coat is technically "centralizing" because every team uses it, but think about BH without fur coat; how do you wall anything with an attack stat above 130 besides hoping you roll complete type immunity (answer is you don't).

If I said unban Zacian-C and undo the stupid Reveal species clause people will just say ”we gotta be accurate to cartridge“ even though that’s just silly and could change with the next pokemon title.

stuff changing between pokemon titles is sort of the point in a generations system; each gen is different from the last, and so homogenizing these for realistically no reason doesn't make much sense. if we're allowing unrestricted zacian-c, then that's both not cart accurate (ie. we're essentially playing a rom hack of pokemon SV where we choose what we can edit to our liking) and will probably be broken anyway. the reveal clause is specifically in place because you can gentleman it, and it'd add a pointless complication to gameplay that annoys experienced players and keeps new ones well away if it were to be removed.

please just settle on the imp conversation for now, the same stuff is being repeated post after post after post and nothing productive is happening

 

[Chessking345]

Sharing this team we built for Ghosting tour R1, featuring main wincon Specs Diancie (which I highly doubt is going to survive the suspect, feel free to steal this for Stage 2 R1 though). I think this team is solid at demonstrating how and why Diancie is broken and banworthy.
Apart from the actual tour game itself I laddered a reasonable amount and played reasonably competent teams, so far this team has yet to lose.

Standard Specs Diancie, Rash to maximize damage, ESpeed is mandatory for the utility it brings, Earth Power provides the best chip against Poisonceus, Rev Dance for stray Ho-Ohs. I personally don't like Volt Switch that much anyways, and on a team like this where its the main progress maker it makes no sense to pivot out considering there's nothing to pivot into. Improofed by Groundceus.
Ground is a very solid typing SpD wise with the Electric immunity comes in handy against Volt Switch and Thunder Cage while also resisting rocks. Physical is selected over special because SpA Groundceus has some inconsistent coverage choice and also fares worse into common SpA breakers that have notably higher SpD than Def. SpA would also be sapblocked by the relatively common Blissey and Sap is necessary on this set to handle Diancie more reliably. Originally this was Adamant for more raw power and basically all the games I played with used that, but Impish is probably more consistent for trapping Imposter and sponging Mixed Diancie. Selfproof, Dondozo in a pinch.
Since Groundceus is physical it loses to Sap setup like Take Heart Arcs, Blissey does this and provides the key sapblock support for Diancie. I experimented with Ooze but the team felt inconsistent and I wanted a stronger defensive core. Blissey also provides a Moongeist Beam switch in. Best improof is Groundceus to deal major damage with Blades.
With 2 slots remaining needed to cover both physical threats and Arceus-Ghost, dual Fur Coat felt awkward so went with mono FC Dondozo as a blanket physical check. Dondozo over Slowbro because of Ashgren and random Power Trip users. Wisp is useful in conjunction with Sap to neuter most physical attackers. Wisp and Stone Axe will miss often beware. Improofed by Blissey if Imp is burned, also by Eternatus.
Still needed a Ghostceus check and Nihilslave suggested this set. Unaware seemed cool so just added it to the team and loaded into the game. Turns out this set is solid as Glare does heavy Para work. Etern in particular dissuades all Glare absorbers in with Mirai being blasted by DEnergy and Take Heart users being bypassed by Unaware. Originally it was Strength Sap but a few ladder games in I realized the amazing synergy of Strength Sap and Unaware so switched to Recover. Sap is still an option for more PP but getting sapblocked is a bit dubious relying on Sludge recovery. Improofed by Blissey (preferably statused to prevent Para) and Imposter, Groundceus in a pinch.

This team pretty much is a generic Diancie standard Balance structure. Diancie, regardless of what sturdy checks the opponent has, can consistently make progress. Ice Scales Poisonceus, one of the hardest checks to Specs Diancie out there, easily gets chipped down by repeated Boombursts and Earth Powers while Blissey completely sapblocks. Recover variants are unviable because they are sat on by Imposter (and still get recovery stalled long-term between Boomburst EP and Rev Dance).

Brief meta opinions:
Diancie is exceptionally oppressive and needs to go ASAP.
Sapblock is exceptionally oppressive, Ooze needs to go ASAP, Bounce and statbased have leeway and counterplay options, respectively.
The offensive threats diversify notably post Diancie-ban considering Diancie single handedly offensively checked like the majority of them. Will need to see how the meta develops.
Otherwise don't think the meta is in a bad shape, unless Diancie somehow stays??

 

[Giagantic]

As a result of a blind vote, Mega Diancie is banned from Balanced Hackmons!

Follow Link for more: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-bh-suspect-4-mega-diancie.3735576/post-9958392


Tagging dhelmise for implementation!

 

[IMPERIUM OF MAN]

i really do not follow what you're trying to say here. are you saying mega diancie is broken because it out-offenses all the guys you listed (because if so then that's why we're suspect testing it)? are you saying fur coat is somehow popular because people are using more special breakers than in the past? are you saying koraidon is walled by giratina despite having dragon stab? chansey in and of itself can't just "come in on any offensive set and wall" if you're running mons that don't use recovery, which is the majority of the sets of the offensive things you listed; even with strength sap on these sets, imp isn't exactly willing to come in and potentially take 70 on a prediction + get next to nothing out of the interaction. it isn't bulky enough and unrestricted in its moves enough to do that.

Okay i'm just going to reply to this because i can't exactly disagree with much of what you're saying but i was hoping you'd understand the scenario with Giratina vs a koraidon but here we go. OKAY

So lets say i have Giratina, and a fairy type on my team. Koraidon has stab dragon and fighting, so lets say i have a mon weak to fighting on my team, the koraidon can either, one, go for the fighting move and i just switch into my giratina, then encore with prankster (old reliable) and then pivot from there, now if the koraidon is choice band which in most cases its going to be because it needs the extra power, me encoring isnt even needed, i could just as easily predict or play around that to just insta-wall the koraidon into clicking dragon or fighting move and just keep pivoting, how you couldn't piece together that Ghost is immune to fighting and how fairy is immune to dragon and how its stupid easy to just play around that, i have no idea.

just to further explain, i can put myself in a position where okay, its either gonna click fighting or dragon and switch in accordingly. I mean flutter mane just shuts down koraidon entirely bc both fairy+ghost i understand because i'm not 1700+ on bh my posts are taken as a joke but fr this is getting annoying just constantly, "you know nothing because of your low elo" okay fine but experience is experience and trying to just shut me up like this is gas lighting at best.

stuff changing between pokemon titles is sort of the point in a generations system; each gen is different from the last, and so homogenizing these for realistically no reason doesn't make much sense. if we're allowing unrestricted zacian-c, then that's both not cart accurate (ie. we're essentially playing a rom hack of pokemon SV where we choose what we can edit to our liking) and will probably be broken anyway. the reveal clause is specifically in place because you can gentleman it, and it'd add a pointless complication to gameplay that annoys experienced players and keeps new ones well away if it were to be removed.

Well i still haven't seen a compelling argument why we need to be accurate to cart yet other then its how BH is defined by the council. And seriously playing a rom hack? this entire format is called hackmons and you need to modify the cart/hack the cart to do hackmons. Another thing, why is it a bad thing to just create a metagame thats more diverse or just it custom in this way? i personally don't see issues with it mainly because its already ill-legitimate pokemon so whats the problem with just allowing a more fun version of it?

it'd add a pointless complication to gameplay that annoys experienced players and keeps new ones well away if it were to be removed.

I don't even understand what you mean by this, keep new players away? how exactly? I've not met a single player to date who has liked the reveal clause or applauded its implementation. only the opposite. So can you direct me to whom exactly it would annoy and how it keeps new players away when it never did that in the first place? because BH always was fine before the reveal clause, PS. i've been playing Gen9bh since it came out and haven't seen anyone complain over "reveal clause." (Not saying me playing gen9bh since it came out is a flex, i know everyone on this forum has too i'm just saying i aint seen no one complain.)

 

[Tea Guzzler]

So lets say i have Giratina, and a fairy type on my team. Koraidon has stab dragon and fighting, so lets say i have a mon weak to fighting on my team, the koraidon can either, one, go for the fighting move and i just switch into my giratina, then encore with prankster (old reliable) and then pivot from there, now if the koraidon is choice band which in most cases its going to be because it needs the extra power, me encoring isnt even needed, i could just as easily predict or play around that to just insta-wall the koraidon into clicking dragon or fighting move and just keep pivoting, how you couldn't piece together that Ghost is immune to fighting and how fairy is immune to dragon and how its stupid easy to just play around that, i have no idea.

the big assumption here is that the koraidon user is magically getting every predict wrong and also refuses to ever click u-turn. there are mons that are theoretically unwallable if you predict right, but the drawbacks of missing a prediction + the fact that getting every prediction is unlikely at best help pull these back in. few people are going to stay in on a giratina while choice-locked into fighting unless they game's basically done and there is a gigantic reward to CCing as they predict giratina to double switch out; almost never is this actually the case. this argument also just as easily reverses the other way; "what if they get every 50/50 right" now becomes the thing preventing you from just relying on only immunities to check stuff.

just to further explain, i can put myself in a position where okay, its either gonna click fighting or dragon and switch in accordingly. I mean flutter mane just shuts down koraidon entirely bc both fairy+ghost i understand because i'm not 1700+ on bh my posts are taken as a joke but fr this is getting annoying just constantly, "you know nothing because of your low elo" okay fine but experience is experience and trying to just shut me up like this is gas lighting at best.

every band koraidon set in the history of the tier has run gigaton hammer because they don't want to be effortlessly walled by fairies

Well i still haven't seen a compelling argument why we need to be accurate to cart yet other then its how BH is defined by the council. And seriously playing a rom hack? this entire format is called hackmons and you need to modify the cart/hack the cart to do hackmons. Another thing, why is it a bad thing to just create a metagame thats more diverse or just it custom in this way? i personally don't see issues with it mainly because its already ill-legitimate pokemon so whats the problem with just allowing a more fun version of it?

this is leaning more on policy rather than tiering itself, but to sum up: using a save editor, such as PKHeX, leaves the actual "workings" of the game intact. the game properly functions "as it should", and if you released the hacked pokemon, you are playing the exact same game as if you brought it from a shop half an hour ago and loaded it onto a brand new switch. things like allowing for completely unrestricted zacian-c violate this; you can release the zacian-c, sure, but your cartridge is now functionally different from the one at the shop thanks to that forme modification. if you aren't content with what the cartridge offers then NDBH does exist, but as it stands there's not really any point to changing what we're currently going with.

I don't even understand what you mean by this, keep new players away? how exactly? I've not met a single player to date who has liked the reveal clause or applauded its implementation. only the opposite. So can you direct me to whom exactly it would annoy and how it keeps new players away when it never did that in the first place? because BH always was fine before the reveal clause, PS. i've been playing Gen9bh since it came out and haven't seen anyone complain over "reveal clause." (Not saying me playing gen9bh since it came out is a flex, i know everyone on this forum has too i'm just saying i aint seen no one complain.)

do you have evidence of people actively disliking reveal clause? because i have literally never seen anyone go "ah yes i want minutes of extra mental gymnastics to run through at the start of a game". look at it through an example:

(with reveal clause)

(without)
do you expect a newer player to be able to cotton on to, not only the fact that these pikachus are not in fact pikachu, but the many things that they could be? bear in mind that switching in does not remove this ambiguity; the only idea you have that the third pikachu along is mega alakazam is that it's a pure psychic-type (only shown once it switches in), and you aren't told at all that the slowbro is mega unless you calc the range after you've hit it. the game does not give you any other hints. also, even though the bottom screenshot is technically bugged, do you expect someone to realize that the intended behaviour for the leftmost pikachu is to be genderless (and thus the implication that it's a genderless pokemon under disguise)? PS would also have to develop essentially a new model management system specifically for BH which is not something anybody really wants to do. im struggling to see how having this clause in place does any harm to the tier.

 

[Rotommaster87]

Serious question, are people looking into unbanning Quiver Dance ever? With Victory Dance being around and No Retreat existing I see almost no reason why Quiver Dance should stay banned.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Serious question, are people looking into unbanning Quiver Dance ever? With Victory Dance being around and No Retreat existing I see almost no reason why Quiver Dance should stay banned.

not really. there's some differences between these that make qd much stronger than the other two:

• QD has a substantial PP advantage, having double that of victory dance and 4x that of no retreat, making it better into longer games
• No Retreat's trapping tool both prevents spamming it and essentially locks it to use by Ghost-types
• Special boosters are generally better off than physical due to not having to contend with burns, not caring for strength sap, and having access to judgment (there is no physical equivalent to this). Special attackers also have partial trapping moves like Thunder Cage that allow them to more readily beat Imposter users while keeping the effective moveslot (Victory Dance users need Spirit Shackle to actually beat Imposter, which is very bad outside of trapping)

The question here is whether it'd be overwhelming in comparison to Take Heart instead of the other two, but that would be a retest for some point down the line when the meta's stabilized and no/few tournaments are on.

 

[IMPERIUM OF MAN]

do you expect a newer player to be able to cotton on to, not only the fact that these pikachus are not in fact pikachu, but the many things that they could be? bear in mind that switching in does not remove this ambiguity; the only idea you have that the third pikachu along is mega alakazam is that it's a pure psychic-type (only shown once it switches in), and you aren't told at all that the slowbro is mega unless you calc the range after you've hit it. the game does not give you any other hints. also, even though the bottom screenshot is technically bugged, do you expect someone to realize that the intended behaviour for the leftmost pikachu is to be genderless (and thus the implication that it's a genderless pokemon under disguise)? PS would also have to develop essentially a new model management system specifically for BH which is not something anybody really wants to do. im struggling to see how having this clause in place does any harm to the tier.

Okay what i mean with the reveal clause is the species clause, if there was confusion i apologize, i specifically meant the species reveal clause that you mentioned here

this is leaning more on policy rather than tiering itself, but to sum up: using a save editor, such as PKHeX, leaves the actual "workings" of the game intact. the game properly functions "as it should", and if you released the hacked pokemon, you are playing the exact same game as if you brought it from a shop half an hour ago and loaded it onto a brand new switch. things like allowing for completely unrestricted zacian-c violate this; you can release the zacian-c, sure, but your cartridge is now functionally different from the one at the shop thanks to that forme modification. if you aren't content with what the cartridge offers then NDBH does exist, but as it stands there's not really any point to changing what we're currently going with.

All these clauses get me genuinely mixed up, not a fault of anyone but myself, my bad. My idea is more of, why have the cart accuracy in the first place when all it does is just cut out certain mons? (zygarde-complete, xerneas, palafin, zacian-c, zamazenta-c, and all the others it affects) like, all the megas, i love them! if anything the megas kind of helped lessen the blow of the cart-accuracy thing. Again sorry for the confusion, i 100% agree with what you're saying on the reveal clause, without it, yeah this would be just, unintelligible, sorry for the confusion, i keep getting the clauses mixed up because theres just so many and are named similarly. Just to really nail it home, the reveal clause with the pikachu example, i agree, yes, have it, need it, i just misunderstood because the clauses are named similarly

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Okay what i mean with the reveal clause is the species clause, if there was confusion i apologize, i specifically meant the species reveal clause that you mentioned here

species clause is in place pretty much solely due to forme clause, the would-be alternative, freeing arceus spam in the meta; this is something that we view as highly undesirable to have, especially now with take heart running about. a separate arceus clause, like the one national dex bh uses, was turned down by staff at the start of the gen and hasn't been considered since. the amount of cases that species clause matters for (realistically only giratina, maybe palkia at a stretch) is low enough to where it's largely a non-factor.

All these clauses get me genuinely mixed up, not a fault of anyone but myself, my bad. My idea is more of, why have the cart accuracy in the first place when all it does is just cut out certain mons? (zygarde-complete, xerneas, palafin, zacian-c, zamazenta-c, and all the others it affects) like, all the megas, i love them! if anything the megas kind of helped lessen the blow of the cart-accuracy thing. Again sorry for the confusion, i 100% agree with what you're saying on the reveal clause, without it, yeah this would be just, unintelligible, sorry for the confusion, i keep getting the clauses mixed up because theres just so many and are named similarly. Just to really nail it home, the reveal clause with the pikachu example, i agree, yes, have it, need it, i just misunderstood because the clauses are named similarly

as i said above, cart accuracy is largely an OM staff thing rather than a council thing. in short, cart accuracy is what BH has been going off of for as long as it's existed, and there's not been a tremendous push to change it; there was this thread when the changes were actually cropping up, and it was pretty heavily in favour of cartridge accuracy when it came to these formes specifically, even in spite of old staples like zygarde-c being inaccessible. being cart accurate isn't by itself a requirement for an OM (see fortemons, mix and mega, shared power, etc), but not modifying where possible helps streamline tiering by not having to debate over which mechanics to extrapolate / how far we want them to go (not relevant to BH specifically, but we have no way of testing eg. what happens if xern gets skill swapped and switches out, or what any of these do when revived; we're just making stuff up based on past gen precedent at that point).

 

[Onyx Onix 7]

ust to further explain, i can put myself in a position where okay, its either gonna click fighting or dragon and switch in accordingly. I mean flutter mane just shuts down koraidon entirely bc both fairy+ghost i understand because i'm not 1700+ on bh my posts are taken as a joke but fr this is getting annoying just constantly, "you know nothing because of your low elo" okay fine but experience is experience and trying to just shut me up like this is gas lighting at best.

The reason folks are clowning on your posts has nothing to do with your elo. The highest-ranked player on the ladder right now isn't even 1700 and hasn't been for a while regardless due to a declining player base. Also, we've had many players who have never gotten close to rank 1 on BH ladder and likely never will (Obviously getting rank 1 isn't trivial to do, so few players relative to the entire player base have done that successfully) bring forth some very insightful posts that have been universally well-received in the community. While I haven't played you before in a game, so I am clueless as to what your skill level is: the reason many of your posts are being clowned on is many of the points and suggestions you've brought up are identical to points brought up in the past by players who lack a fundamental understanding of how tiering policy and Hackmons work. I'm not of course stating that it is true for yourself again, I can't assume anything since I've never played against you. Regardless, I appreciate you taking an interest in Hackmons and strongly disagree with those clowning on your posts. Asking questions, bringing up these points, listening to the perspectives of other players, and most importantly playing is how one begins to foster a better understanding of the game.

 

[Chessking345]

Have done some laddering in new meta with a highly dubious team but worked out pretty well. Some observations/notes/speculations on how the Mega Diancie ban affects most mons on the VR. Posting this here instead of Resources because its not formal VR noms or anything.

=====​

Winners - Mega Diancie is somewhat unique in that its departure is favourable for a good majority of the mons in the meta due to how potent it was against both offensive and defensive mons. In particular, due to this it is actually not very certain how the meta will shape out and adapt because almost everything gets better.

(Literally like 95+% of offensive mons)
All of these benefit directly from Diancie's ban by losing a revenge-killer from Extreme Speed and/or just outspeeding and nuking with Boomburst. In particular:
Stuff like can now choose to forgo Psysurge, can setup easier on more passive mons, are also the next best options to fill in the void of strong Fairy attackers, the former boasting an even stronger Specs Boomburst while the latter does mixed sets and capitalizes on Poisonceus's anticipated drop.

(Basically every non Diancie-check)
Defensive mons can benefit in a variety of ways. Some Def non-resists like no longer have to deal with letting Diancie in and being forced out, the Dragons lose a soft check, a lot of the less bulkier mons no longer get 2HKOed by Specs Boomburst (or for , Mixed ESpeed). The two Arceus formes are listed because they have a worse matchup than the other formes due to being neutral to everything and not hitting Diancie super effectively.

=====​

Neutral - These are some mons that are either Diancie soft-checks that can retain usability post ban by either switching roles or just keeping their role and not have to worry about being an insufficient Diancie check, or some offensive mons that do not have a poor MU into Diancie.


remains a potent Scales Arc by virtue of typing.
will likely stop using Scales but FC is useable.
Steels remain steels, notable in able to forgo Fire-immune if unnecessary.
can preserve a niche with Sunsteel resistance and Psychic-type

=====​

Losers - These lose a lot of defensive purpose since their main purpose was to check Diancie (while checking some other stuff) but with Diancie gone why not just use something that checks the other stuff stronger.

There is like basically no point in using this, Fire isn't that good defensively against stuff like and provides the Psychic typing against threats like .
Was almost exclusively used for Diancie lol. Typing no longer is very useful and compromises Ground and Psychic matchups.
Also Poison-types. They can technically do sapblocking stuff but both are pretty outclassed in that regard and have annoying weaknesses to cover for.

=====​

Think the meta would be quite volatile for a while with a lot more freedom both offensively and defensively, especially with the considerable diversity for both. Basically all the defensive options remain strong with decent variety in sets. Offensively we have stuff like as SpA, as Atk, as mixed, and a bunch of bulky setup stuff like . Should be a very interesting meta for innovation and adaptation, especially with 2 more rounds of Ghosting, some rounds of Majors, and eventually Open in a month to test how the meta developed. (Afterwards we can maybe retest some stuff due for a retesting).

However, Ooze is still an enormous problem. While sapblocking in general lost one of its more potent enablers, threats like still are potent and with Ooze around can force the same sap mindgames as always. As I mentioned before, sapblocking is going to be a part of this generation simply due to how PP works and I think that stuff like Bounce/stat-based sapblocking is reasonably healthy, in particular you can build and situationally play around them. Meanwhile, Ooze simply doesn't give leeway in playing around and is overall an unhealthy and unbeneficial aspect of the meta. I also have seen substantial support for Ooze ban in discussions on cord while I have seen basically no constructive defense (if anyone has any please do share it here or on cord and ping).

=====​

Also can we like please stop with Imposter this Imposter that it gets quite repetitive when for the nth time someone brings it up and half a page is filled with stuff relating to it that goes nowhere for the nth time and it just ends up being clutter. Imposter certainly can be argued as the strongest it has been in a while in a meta with no PH and good trapping but even still it has reasonable counterplay options. The only remotely problematic aspect would be that Imposter encourages Sap which has a myriad of problems the main one starting with L ending with E but that obviously is problematic on its own. Also Imposter overused should be like no surprise at this point it has a comfortably positive winrate in like every tournament since 2019 its good splashable and thus people run it on most teams, just like how many metas have a dominant mon that warps the tier around it but not in a completely unhealthy way because you have multiple possible outs.

 

[Shay's Fate]

the amount of cases that species clause matters for (realistically only giratina, maybe palkia at a stretch) is low enough to where it's largely a non-factor.

I think that species clause is a pretty stupid clause as a whole and I've never recieved a good explanation of why is it a thing in any tier. While I do think that freeing Arceus Spam would be pretty stupid I also think that there's some Pokemon that could benefit from being used more than once in a team. An example of this is Spam Teams in Pure Hackmons, teams based around stacking a Pokemon to overwhelm and confuse the other player.

I'm very aware that Pure Hackmons and Balanced Hackmons are two different metas, but I don't see why having more than one Pokemon of the same speciesis unhealthy to the meta. This obviously excludes Arceus, which might cause a complex ban that would be against the tiering policy, if that's the case I would totally understand it.

 

[UT]

This obviously excludes Arceus, which might cause a complex ban that would be against the tiering policy, if that's the case I would totally understand it.

species clause is in place pretty much solely due to forme clause, the would-be alternative, freeing arceus spam in the meta; this is something that we view as highly undesirable to have, especially now with take heart running about.

Yes, Species Clause is used as the only tiering-legal way to prevent Arceus spam, short of banning Arceus itself.

 

[Chessking345]

Two announcements

First, please welcome Quantum Tesseract as a new council member. QT has been a strong player in BH for multiple generations and they will be a helpful addition to the council with their experience and knowledge.

Second,

Liquid Ooze is quickbanned from BH!​

​	Tea Guzzler​	augustakira​	Chessking345​	TTTech​	Quantum Tesseract
Liquid Ooze​	DNB​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​

Liquid Ooze has been on the watchlist for a while now with its incredible capability to swing games around from one right turn, and recently its effectiveness has been seen in several tournament games in addition to some ladder games. Its ability to create dangerous predictions just through its presence in game, more commonly favouring the Liquid Ooze user, is decided to be too overbearing and uncompetitive for the meta that heavily relies on Strength Sap. Compared to alternate Sapblocking methods like Magic Bounce and low-attack Pokemon, Liquid Ooze offers a far harsher punishment and is notably more difficult to play and prepare around.

Tagging dhelmise to implement, thanks! Also tagging Tea Guzzler to update OP, thanks!.

Regarding retests, we are currently looking at the window between the end of BH open and the start of OMPL as the time to retest certain elements. The currently banned elements that we are potentially going to retest are Lumina Crash, Photon Geyser, and Substitute.

 

[IMPERIUM OF MAN]

Two announcements

First, please welcome Quantum Tesseract as a new council member. QT has been a strong player in BH for multiple generations and they will be a helpful addition to the council with their experience and knowledge.

Second,

Liquid Ooze is quickbanned from BH!​

​	Tea Guzzler​	augustakira​	Chessking345​	TTTech​	Quantum Tesseract
Liquid Ooze​	DNB​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​

Liquid Ooze has been on the watchlist for a while now with its incredible capability to swing games around from one right turn, and recently its effectiveness has been seen in several tournament games in addition to some ladder games. Its ability to create dangerous predictions just through its presence in game, more commonly favouring the Liquid Ooze user, is decided to be too overbearing and uncompetitive for the meta that heavily relies on Strength Sap. Compared to alternate Sapblocking methods like Magic Bounce and low-attack Pokemon, Liquid Ooze offers a far harsher punishment and is notably more difficult to play and prepare around.

Tagging dhelmise to implement, thanks! Also tagging Tea Guzzler to update OP, thanks!.

Regarding retests, we are currently looking at the window between the end of BH open and the start of OMPL as the time to retest certain elements. The currently banned elements that we are potentially going to retest are Lumina Crash, Photon Geyser, and Substitute.

oh god I can’t believe liquid ooze of all things, like bro if you don’t suspect test strength sap soon I’m out this, for real, the best and reliable healing move had its one counter and it’s banned, simply wonderful. Please, illuminate me with why getting rid of the one thing that stopped strength sap Was a good idea.

 

[Notgamingreally]

oh god I can’t believe liquid ooze of all things, like bro if you don’t suspect test strength sap soon I’m out this, for real, the best and reliable healing move had its one counter and it’s banned, simply wonderful. Please, illuminate me with why getting rid of the one thing that stopped strength sap Was a good idea.

Other Sapblocking methods exist outside of it tho?





All 5 are proven methods of sap blocking as well as the potential sapblockers with blissey being outright annoying for most defensive Pokémon with magic guard. Hell most bulky things like can probably fit bounce too really anything somewhat bulky can you’re free to try out other bouncers if you wanna

 

[Clas]

oh god I can’t believe liquid ooze of all things, like bro if you don’t suspect test strength sap soon I’m out this, for real, the best and reliable healing move had its one counter and it’s banned, simply wonderful. Please, illuminate me with why getting rid of the one thing that stopped strength sap Was a good idea.

i uh

i dont know what to say to this when it was stated in the banpost that theres multiple other healthy sapblock options that are also just good rn. theres multiple good low-atk options rn like mirai/maud/dia-o/mbro/blobs/etc etc and mbounce is just splashable rn. if sap is giving you this much trouble then maybe re-evaluate if its a builder issue rather than the move being the issue, bc 9/10 times its super easy to cover and the 1/10 is when you run stuff to try to actively counteract sap healing like knockcure and tspikes/hazstack.