Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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Andrew

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Nerf because otherwise, "You're using Stall? Lol I win gg get gud."
I respect that because a lot of arguments for keeping BP like it is are really just more intelligent, complicated versions of "lol get gud". BP is a bit OP of a strategy at this point in the metagame and a lot of teams have trouble facing it. Stall is also very potent at this point in the metagame, and the fact that BP beats stall most of the time is a huge factor. Is this balancing or damaging? Many of the top ranked players use stall teams and are very successful despite the rise of BP. Stall has in fact risen incredibly from it's niche usage last generation to being one of the best play styles this gen.

I fail to see how Mega Gardevoir runs through BP when Mr. Mime can switch into it rather easily. Scizor definitely isn't beating Baton Pass after Iron Defense boosts, and Vaporeon can Roar it out if it tries to set up alongside it. Aegislash can't break Vaporeon, and I really don't see how Heatran is a threat. Pinsir can be a threat to teams without Zapdos; I'll give you that. Prankster Thundurus can be an issue, especially with Taunt, but it can be played around. Breloom will probably end up losing to Scolipede, or at least letting it Iron Defense on it since Breloom needs to Rock Tomb to break the Substitute. Talonflame can be a threat at first, but again, after Iron Defense / Acid Armor boosts it basically becomes deadweight against Baton Pass. And keep in mind, there's always Smeargle who can, at the very least, force a switch from the threatening "BP-beating" Pokemon's side (you can always Ingrain or Substitute on a predicted switch, so it can usually work out, as the opposition will usually be forced to switch due to the fear of their BP answer being crippled by a devastating Spore). Now, it may seem like having all of these threats on one team would add up and the damages each one can do to Baton Pass would ultimately overwhelm the archtype, but the because of the boosting nature of the team, having these threats on the same team truly will not improve one's chances as much since many of them, such as Talonflame, can become neutered after a few boosts. This is what makes Baton Pass truly devastating. It simply has a large advantage against a wide variety of team archtypes and, unlike other teams, can win against them ridiculously easily. Sure, there are threats to the team, and sure, there are random niche counters, but ultimately the team archtype just has too many good matchups which it can win easily, and demands a nerf of some sort (best option is limiting to 4 or 3 Baton Passers on a team, in my opinion).
The fact is, when the opposing player has at the max two of these "counters", it leads to lots of pressure on the BP player. When several of these are combined, such as a roar heatran, a gyro ball/leech seed ferrothorn, a prankster thunderus, or a talonflame, it leads to a lot of pressure on the BP player and can easily overwhelm them before they get the desired boosts. Say the opponent has both a Talonflame and a Twave Nasty plot thundurus. You don't lead with Scoli bc you'll get Brave birded or T'waved. Thundy can then set up on Scoli. Leading with Smeargle results in a switch to sleep fodder and no gain on the BP side. Leading with Vaporeon might help against Talonflame, but if the opponent leads with Thundy then you're screwed. Having Zapdos on the team can alleviate this problem somewhat, but your still left with the problem of say, Taunt/stone edge Terrakion. Many teams are carrying taunt users that can easily overwhelm Espeon before too many boost are acquired. No one of these pokemon will single handedly run through Baton Pass, just like no one pokemon can single handedly run through any other play style. If there were such a pokemon, it would probably be deemed OP and banished to Ubers.

While I'm not against a nerf on the limit of BP users, or even a Stored Power + BP nerf, I believe that sufficient measures are also being taken that are also useful against other playstyles. I played several people on the mid-upper ladder who used multiple powerful taunt users, such as Terrakion and Thundurus, and they replied that they were also very helpful against stall. Is this evolution or centralization? These changes are apparently useful against one of the other top playstyles: Stall. I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of people also get annoyed at facing the same stall teams over and over, or are annoyed to have a match drag out over many many turns of hardly anything happening. While I respect Stall and find it very thought provoking to face, the measures used against BP are some of the same things that can be used to prevail over this dominant archetype. Btw HO Rain Teams are a very favorable matchup against BP, and this playstyle has also been rising in popularity lately. They create immense pressure on the BP player from the very beginning and can often overwhelm them. Teams that have a powerful Special Attacker, Physical attacker, taunt/roar user, and/or mixed attacker can do well against BP most of the time. I think the fact that Denisss has been so great is that he is a really good player who knows the metagame. Most other Baton Pass players aren't so good and can be easily beaten.

I do belive that the fact that carrying one or two counters to shut down BP pretty much results in a win, while BP shutting down ppl w/o counters from the beggning is a bit uncompetitive. A lot of the times its a simple win or lose from the beginning, and there's not much either player can do about it. This is why I would not be against a limit of BP'ers on a team, or a Stored Power + Baton Pass nerf, because most of the time it results in a simple win/lose scenario that cannot be avoided. However I also believe that the strategies people are taking against Baton Pass are overall healthy and beneficial for this turbulent metagame.
 
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If he had clicked Hyper Voice when he passed to Sylveon instead of Stored Power he would have swept you clean, just saying.
This is not an argument. Hindsight is always 20/20. Saying that the outcomes may have been different if the player had made a different play is applicable to every battle, otherwise every battle would be decided from the team preview.
 
This is not an argument. Hindsight is always 20/20. Saying that the outcomes may have been different if the player had made a different play is applicable to every battle, otherwise every battle would be decided from the team preview.
most BP battles are literally decided on the team preview.
 

-Tsunami-

Banned deucer.
is the 2nd Smogon Classic Winneris a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
This is not an argument. Hindsight is always 20/20. Saying that the outcomes may have been different if the player had made a different play is applicable to every battle, otherwise every battle would be decided from the team preview.
Except in this case, it is an argument since using Hyper Voice was a better move in every possible scenario, lol.
 
Why didn't we ban Thundurus, Klefki, Liepard, and Sableye instead of banning Swagger alone? Because those Pokemon aren't broken on themselves, and the only broken aspect of them was the priority SwagPlay that 100% depended on luck.

The same can be applied here, Scolipede and Espeon aren't broken on their own, and therefore shouldn't be banned. Even without Speed Boost and Magic Bounce, BP can work, really. Ingrain can prevent pHazing and speed can be boosted manually by a lot of viable Pokemon like Mew, who can also boost it's def and SpD with Barrier and Amnesia, respectively.

If complex bans can be avoided, they should. Limiting BP to 2-3 Pokemon in a team seems like the best solution, and it bans no individual Pokemon, and removes the broken aspect of BP.
If you can make a BP team work without Speed Boost and Magic Bounce than props to you. That would at least require a decent amount of skill to pull off, and would be perfectly balanced (if not sub-standard). Limiting a certain number of BP users per team destroys a playstyle entirely and is completely out of the tradition of bans. Banning the combination of Speed Boost+Magic Bounce on the same team would keep full BP alive, nerf it enough to be manageable (but still usable), and falls in neatly with the precedent of the Swift Swim+Drizzle Ban.
 
Great, this is the part of the thread that goes to hell in a hand basket.

Now we are insulting and being condescending towards one another. Can we try to act with a little civility here.

Fact of the matter is that BP, regardless of anyone's personal take on it, is very formulaic with little wiggle room for change. As a BP user, you go in either saying, "I got this" OR "I'm Prince William royally friggin SCREWED!!!" There is no middle ground.

The fact that you stumbled upon a team that can handle BP is either a testament to the sentiment that you are a savant at Pokémon OR a blind squirrel who found a very good nut for the winter. (Yes, tongue in cheek)

However, not everyone can accomplish this (your team build) on the first go. What a noob CAN accomplish is building a BP team that sky-rockets them to a 1700+ ELO in a couple of hours.

That, my friend, is the VERY definition of formulaic.

"How do you like THEM Apples?!" - Matt Damon, Good Will Hunting
Hey man, that's not my first team. And you don't need to insult my own skill either.

But the thing is, if I try to make a team that is good against bp, will I have a hard time? No, because because the pokemon who give you a good chance against bp (and good chance, not counter, because you are not supposed to counter entire playstyles), it can be easily done using pokemon in OU. It can be so easily done that a lot players like me acomplish it without even trying. Now what do you think it will happen if people start considering bp when teambuilding instead of dismissing its existance?

I'll make a bold afiamation that I can't prove, but it's what I team it's going on here. The only reason everyone is having problems with bp is because everyone is refusing to prepare against it. They want it to be free ELO, just like it was in the previous gen. When people start actually making questions like "does this pokemon have enough power to put pressure on bp teams", the problem will be solved. Either that, or Smogon will ban it to create the illusion of a perfect metagame they want.
 
Even if there are a few viable answers to BP that are actually useful outside of beating BP (there really aren't, but just for the sake of argument), I don't see how that would make it not broken. For something to be broken, it is not necessary for it to be completely unbeatable or lack viable counters. Blaziken could be handled quite easily by simply slapping a Talonflame or Azumarill on your team, but it was still absurdly broken, even though Talonflame and Azumarill were ten times more viable than any of the proposed "counters" to BP are. Heck, I'd argue that BP has far fewer counters in OU than a sizeable portion of the Uber tier would. Seriously, even Xerneas of all things has more common and good counters in OU than Baton Pass, as it's countered by standard sets of two of the best Pokemon in OU, Aegislash and Scizor, while BP only loses to one OU mon, Thundurus, and even then only if it's wasting a moveslot to beat BP. I'd sooner free half the Uber tier into OU than have a metagame in which BP was common.

tl;dr BP has fewer reliable and good counters in OU than most Ubers would. Why on earth would "but BP has a few niche counters" possibly be considered a valid reason not to ban it?
 
read the thread.

I can't believe we're not past this yet
I've read the thread none of the arguments against it are particularly convincing. It all comes down to people not wanting to prepare for another team archetype.

Take, for instance the most common starter for Baton Pass Chains, Scolipede. What's a common Pokemon that just completely wrecks it? Talonflame, they send out Scolipede you send out Talonflame. It doesn't matter how many Speed boosts it gets it's going to get hurt. "But what if they send out a Talonflame counter first?" that's what prediction and proper team building is for. Without Scolipede out they're a lot slower, with something fast with good attack you can break the chain, and more then any tactic a Baton Pass Chain relies on everything going near perfectly. One Pokemon being lost is catastrophic for the chain, two is just they've lost.

Or just use Unaware Quagsire/Golbat/Prankster Murkrow and laugh as you constantly Haze away their boosts while they can't do anything.

Heck, just for instance Dragonite can learn Haze, and with Multiscale it takes a lot of boosts before Stored Power can KO it, send it out, take any hit for ease, use Haze and use Dragonite's power to start smashing things. New threats require new creativity and ideas, it's called the metagame evolving.
 
I've read the thread none of the arguments against it are particularly convincing. It all comes down to people not wanting to prepare for another team archetype.

Take, for instance the most common starter for Baton Pass Chains, Scolipede. What's a common Pokemon that just completely wrecks it? Talonflame, they send out Scolipede you send out Talonflame. It doesn't matter how many Speed boosts it gets it's going to get hurt. "But what if they send out a Talonflame counter first?" that's what prediction and proper team building is for. Without Scolipede out they're a lot slower, with something fast with good attack you can break the chain, and more then any tactic a Baton Pass Chain relies on everything going near perfectly. One Pokemon being lost is catastrophic for the chain, two is just they've lost.

Or just use Unaware Quagsire/Golbat/Prankster Murkrow and laugh as you constantly Haze away their boosts while they can't do anything.

Heck, just for instance Dragonite can learn Haze, and with Multiscale it takes a lot of boosts before Stored Power can KO it, send it out, take any hit for ease, use Haze and use Dragonite's power to start smashing things. New threats require new creativity and ideas, it's called the metagame evolving.
If this doesn't convince you:
Even if there are a few viable answers to BP that are actually useful outside of beating BP (there really aren't, but just for the sake of argument), I don't see how that would make it not broken. For something to be broken, it is not necessary for it to be completely unbeatable or lack viable counters. Blaziken could be handled quite easily by simply slapping a Talonflame or Azumarill on your team, but it was still absurdly broken, even though Talonflame and Azumarill were ten times more viable than any of the proposed "counters" to BP are. Heck, I'd argue that BP has far fewer counters in OU than a sizeable portion of the Uber tier would. Seriously, even Xerneas of all things has more common and good counters in OU than Baton Pass, as it's countered by standard sets of two of the best Pokemon in OU, Aegislash and Scizor, while BP only loses to one OU mon, Thundurus, and even then only if it's wasting a moveslot to beat BP. I'd sooner free half the Uber tier into OU than have a metagame in which BP was common.

tl;dr BP has fewer reliable and good counters in OU than most Ubers would. Why on earth would "but BP has a few niche counters" possibly be considered a valid reason not to ban it?
Then the only thing I can suggest is to spend more time on the ladder

Petrico94 , yeah, but that's to be expected from threads that have "ban" in the OP. The reason they're so long is that we have to go over the same thing over and over for people.like Pata. Actually, this thread's pretty easy comparatively
 
Hey man, that's not my first team. And you don't need to insult my own skill either.

But the thing is, if I try to make a team that is good against bp, will I have a hard time? No, because because the pokemon who give you a good chance against bp (and good chance, not counter, because you are not supposed to counter entire playstyles), it can be easily done using pokemon in OU. It can be so easily done that a lot players like me acomplish it without even trying. Now what do you think it will happen if people start considering bp when teambuilding instead of dismissing its existance?

I'll make a bold afiamation that I can't prove, but it's what I team it's going on here. The only reason everyone is having problems with bp is because everyone is refusing to prepare against it. They want it to be free ELO, just like it was in the previous gen. When people start actually making questions like "does this pokemon have enough power to put pressure on bp teams", the problem will be solved. Either that, or Smogon will ban it to create the illusion of a perfect metagame they want.
If you read correctly, it was tongue in cheek. More like friendly prodding than anything else.

But the main point of this thread (in a nutshell) is to understand the mechanics of BP and postulate whether this strategy is viable or simply a gimmick that so happens to have favorable advantages through indirect circumstances.

If a ban were to occur, we need to hash out the reasoning for why we are banning a certain aspect of BP. However, Bans happen all the time regardless of what game you play.

Being a "semi-retired" Yu-Gi-Oh! player (this happens when you have a 7 year old son) I've been around long enough to see bans that made people throw their hands up in disgust. However, just because something isn't popular doesn't mean it was the wrong decision.

If BP were to be Suspect Tested then simply ladder up and meet the requirements that the Smogon Staff post and place your vote.

Personally, BP is too formulaic and thus, needs to be curbed somehow, as I've seen people "literally" hop on PS (with generic pokemon knowledge but stumbled upon BP) and in an hour have a 1500+ ELO... when crap like that happens... it makes you wonder who else out there does this...
 
I have played against a LOT of BP teams, and I must stress am not biased against BP itself. One of my teams uses it to good effect allowing me to use a MegAggron as a speedy tank. But I have yet to win against a full team of BPers. The reason is simple. If you don't start with an offensive Pokemon you're gonna lose the BP race no matter what. Want a quick passer up? By the time you get your passes done your opponent will have boosted beyond the point of no return. Got your RapidSpinner/Tank up? Be prepared to die because there's no way you're going to get rid of the passer before it's boosts have spiraled out of control. After your opponent has set up he/she's unstoppable. That doesn't apply to a quick pass. Through a tough enough special wall in front of a Special Pokemon, or Burn the physical Pokemon and the Quick Pass sweep can be stopped. You cannot stop a BP team after it's gotten max speed boosts.
 
To all the people that keep saying that Baton Pass is an auto-win (or auto-loss) from the start depending on matchup, I would like to see some actual backup arguments behind that statement. I for one have been using Baton Pass since Gen 4 back in the days of Shoddy Battle, used it a lot in Gen 5 (over 400 matches easily) and now in Gen 6. So I can tell you from actual long-time experience that means something (not the two or three replays that some people posted on here) that it's never as black and white or onesided as these people make it out to be.

More so than with any other team, the choices that you make as a Baton Pass user are crucial as one turn is enough to cost you the game. This is because Baton Pass can not afford to let a team member die. If a member dies, you not only have to restart your Baton Pass chain, but you also have to play without an important team member. Contrary to what people seem to believe here, every member on a BP is vital to its success. From the moment you're playing with five pokemon your chances of winning are reduced drastically. Now why is this the case? As people have already touched on in this thread (to my surprise), Baton Pass has to be able to set up on nearly any pokemon in OU (ideally every single one, though this is obviously impossible). If you're not able to Baton Pass into another pokemon and setup succesfully against every threat your opponent brings out, your chain will be broken really quick, I can tell you that much. Every member carries its weight covering relevant threats, be it physical attackers (Vaporeon), special attackers (Mr. Mime), mixed (Mew) or Status/Roar/Taunt/Perish Song (Espeon or Mr. Mime). Scolipede is mandatory for allowing Baton Pass to keep the momentum. People say that Scolipede is broken, but the fact that BP needs a team slot for something that has little other use (defensively it's not that great and Vaporeon is by far the better defense passer) than providing speed boosts actually balances the playstyle out significantly. Now you have only five pokemon to cover every threat in OU.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, Baton Pass is not too different from other playstyles in the end. It faces the same issues as Stall does for example, as neither can win against every threat in OU. They (should) win against the majority of pokemon though, but does that make these playstyles overpowered? People that see Baton Pass as this godly playstyle please actually try to ladder with it yourself for a long time like me, then you'll see how many times you run into obstacles like Thundurus-I, Sableye, Topsy Turvy Malamar of all things, Sticky Web Galvantula, Calm Mind Espeon with Shadow Ball (can't phaze it out or Encore it, and early game your Espeon won't have enough boosts itself to break through), Whimsicott and something that a lot of people forget: hax. While hax is omnipresent it's particularly relevant in games with a Baton Pass player as hax is actually one-sided in such battles. Baton Pass never benefits from hax (and should never do so, either you have setup enough to sweep or you haven't), while the opponent often only needs one crit to turn the match around. You're always fighting an uphill battle against hax when using Baton Pass, and that's something that you have to deal with every match.
 
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-Tsunami-

Banned deucer.
is the 2nd Smogon Classic Winneris a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
Basically what I'm trying to say is, Baton Pass is not too different from other playstyles in the end. It faces the same issues as Stall does for example, as neither can win against every threat in OU. They (should) win against the majority of pokemon though, but does that make these playstyles overpowered? People that see Baton Pass as this godly playstyle please actually try to ladder with it yourself for a long time like me, then you'll see how many times you run into obstacles like Thundurus-I, Sableye, Topsy Turvy Malamar of all things, Sticky Web Galvantula, Calm Mind Espeon with Shadow Ball (can't phaze it out or Encore it, and early game your Espeon won't have enough boosts itself to break through), Whimsicott and something that a lot of people forget: hax. While hax is omnipresent it's particularly relevant in games with a Baton Pass player as hax is actually one-sided in such battles. Baton Pass never benefits from hax (and should never do so, either you have setup enough to sweep or you haven't), while the opponent often only needs one crit to turn the match around. You're always fighting an uphill battle against hax when using Baton Pass, and that's something that you have to deal with every match.
Stall is completely different than Baton Pass. Stall has many more viable answers to it than Baton Pass, and stall also does not have as many auto-win situations. Baton Pass has a better match-up on more teams than stall does. Also, Sableye loses to Sylveon and you can always go to Espeon on the Taunt. Taunt Thundurus-I can be a threat, but everything else you mentioned is completely irrelevant since all 4 of of Malamar, Galvantula, CM Shadow Ball Espeon, and Whimsicott are otherwise garbage in OU and essentially fall into the same category as things such as Prankster Haze Murkrow and Haze Unaware Quagsire. No one is saying Baton Pass doesn't have its counters; it's just that almost all of the counters are so niche and completely terrible outside of beating Baton Pass that they are effectively irrelevant and shouldn't be used as an argument to keep Baton Pass in the tier. Also, hax really shouldn't be used as an argument since that is just a part of every Pokemon battle; regardless, every Pokemon on Baton Pass runs Substitute anyway, so you don't even have to avoid critical hits for that long due to Substitute. Baton Pass needs to be nerfed.
 
Stall is completely different than Baton Pass. Stall has many more viable answers to it than Baton Pass, and stall also does not have as many auto-win situations. Baton Pass has a better match-up on more teams than stall does. Also, Sableye loses to Sylveon and you can always go to Espeon on the Taunt. Taunt Thundurus-I can be a threat, but everything else you mentioned is completely irrelevant since all 4 of of Malamar, Galvantula, CM Shadow Ball Espeon, and Whimsicott are otherwise garbage in OU and essentially fall into the same category as things such as Prankster Haze Murkrow and Haze Unaware Quagsire. No one is saying Baton Pass doesn't have its counters; it's just that almost all of the counters are so niche and completely terrible outside of beating Baton Pass that they are effectively irrelevant and shouldn't be used as an argument to keep Baton Pass in the tier. Also, hax really shouldn't be used as an argument since that is just a part of every Pokemon battle; regardless, every Pokemon on Baton Pass runs Substitute anyway, so you don't even have to avoid critical hits for that long due to Substitute. Baton Pass needs to be nerfed.
Except you can't go to Espeon on the Taunt, as Prankster Taunt goes before Baton Pass. Also Sableye does a lot of damage with Knock Off or Night Shade while Espeon can't do anything back. The whole match you have to take into account a switch into Sableye for this reason, which makes setting up boosts nearly impossible. I also explained how hax is relevant as it affects Baton Pass way more than any other playstyle. Either way those were just examples. They do appear and make matches very difficult for Baton Pass. Again, I would like to see more arguments as to why Baton Pass provides an auto-win against so much more teams than for example Stall as you provided exactly none.
 
Has anyone considered a simple scarf gothitelle over one of the less important members of the chain like mr mime or smeargle? It gives you less members to boost but often times the opposing team will only carry one counter to whatever you have, which can seal the game instantly after you restart the chain, especially against stall.

timid 56hp/252specatt/200speed,
psychic/energyball/tbolt/hp rock
evs outspeed timid thund by 1 point and the hp evs lets you always live CB talonflame bbird

252 SpA Gothitelle Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 144-169 (48 - 56.3%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Gothitelle Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 288-340 (96.6 - 114%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Gothitelle Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 452-532 (114.7 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Gothitelle Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 188-224 (63 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if sun gets stalled out he cannot ohko in return

you can tailor it to some other threats im not thinking of atm, and can even run specs if ur confident scolipede can pass +1 speed which turns a lot of things into a ohko.
 
I don't believe baton pass teams should be a worry, due to the fact that the entire point of a team is to try and eliminate as many threats as possible (which includes baton pass). Also, there are many threats to baton pass teams that should make it no worry to face. This includes priority taunt, haze, and sometimes even perish song. If people find it to be that much of a deal, just include one of them on your team and you should be fine. However, if smogon insists in ban something (again) to make the strategy less overpowered, i would suggest doing a rather complex ban by limiting the number of stat boosts a pokemon can have with baton pass. For example, scolipede can only get +X speed boosts before he can't get any more if it has baton pass. It would create the ability to weaken baton pass without completely destroying the strategy in pokemon.
 
I also explained how hax is relevant as it affects Baton Pass way more than any other playstyle. Either way those were just examples. They do appear and make matches very difficult for Baton Pass.
Why is hax being mentioned as a an example to beating Baton Pass? That isn't relevant because that 6.25% chance of getting a critical hit applies to every playstyles not just Baton Pass. Hax affects every Pokemon battle and isn't limited to just Baton Pass. Stall can have their Chansey critted so it can't deal with Zard Y as effectively, HO can miss a 90% accurate move that cost them the game, the list goes on. How is hax more relevant to Baton Pass then other playstyle? I just don't get it. It's gotten to the point where hax is proof as a way to show that Baton Pass isn't an issue, and this is just okay with people?
 
I agree with a previous post (which I am too lazy to find but did first see the suggestion at) that to really nerf baton pass would be to ban defense-boosting moves like amnesia/iron defense and/or baton pass on espeon and scolipede.

I personally think that the best use of baton pass would be passing a few critical boosts to a powerful pokemon that can't obtain those stat boosts by itself (like passing speed boosts to a megachomp or kyurem-b), and that any bans placed should encourage that use of baton pass.
 
Why is hax being mentioned as a an example to beating Baton Pass? That isn't relevant because that 6.25% chance of getting a critical hit applies to every playstyles not just Baton Pass. Hax affects every Pokemon battle and isn't limited to just Baton Pass. Stall can have their Chansey critted so it can't deal with Zard Y as effectively, HO can miss a 90% accurate move that cost them the game, the list goes on. How is hax more relevant to Baton Pass then other playstyle? I just don't get it. It's gotten to the point where hax is proof as a way to show that Baton Pass isn't an issue, and this is just okay with people?
I'm not agreeing with him on his hax note, but I feel like his point was that the unlucky crit when the sub is down is going to hurt BP teams (who rely on their chain to win) a bit more than it would the normal team in normal situations (not the 90% Overheat miss to cost you the game), or the 2 turn parahax that gives your opponent the chance to KO your pokemon before they can pass out. Granted these probably aren't that common since magic bounce and subs are pretty common to be up, but i thought i would give how I understood the post.

i still think that a limit to the number of pokemon who can use baton pass on a team should be somewhere between 2-4, just so we can see how far we want to take it. 4 leaves a somewhat salvageable BP core that can be used as support, but may be too much since they still get all needed parts pretty much with that. 2-3 if you want to kill the BP team, which I personally think we should, and limit it to either use for pursuit-escaping or as a series of small boosts to set up another pokemon and not as a complete chain.

Also a question (maybe a bad suggestion), could we make it so you cannot Baton pass to another pokemon with Baton pass? That would leave quick/drypasssing options open, not need any pokemon banned, but completely kill the chain aspect, which may be the problem with it. However this way we avoid banning any moves, abilities, or pokemon that aren't inherently broken. Then again, the limit does the same thing, so consider this me thinking aloud.
 

Deluks917

Ride on Shooting Star
I have personally played baton pass with only 5 baton passers. It can definitely be done successfully on the ladder.

Fairly sure the "number of baton passers" needs to be limited to at most 4 (3 is safer?) to actually nerf baton pass suffiently.
 

qpie

predatory
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
A few pages back people were discussing how many Baton Pass users per team would be acceptable should we choose to limit their number.

The general consensus seems to be that 3-4 would be a sensible number. However I personally feel like this might be overshooting our goal. From what I've seen full Baton Pass teams are delicate constructs and removing any of their elements opens up a bunch of holes.

Let's pretend we were to limit Baton Pass to 5 Pokemon per team. How would full BP teams adapt to this? Which problems would removing each individual member cause them?

Assuming people would stick to something close to our current standard full Baton Pass teams...
*


- Scolipede
Full Baton Pass obviously needs something that can pass Speed boosts. I very much doubt any Pokemon fills this role anywhere near as effectively as Scolipede does, so this slot is pretty much set in stone.

* - Mr Mime*
This is arguably the most replaceable Pokemon on our current iterations of full Baton pass teams. It's generally some sort of counter-counter or redundant booster. How much would it hurt full BP if this 'mon wasn't part of the chain? How often do these teams find themselves in a situation where they need to hard counter a specific threat after already having acquired some boosts? Can full BP even handle sound moves without Mr. Mime? Doesn't Mega Pinsir at least give players a fair chance against full BP without Zapdos?

- Espeon
:')

- Sylveon
Secondary sweeper, premier special wall, counter to some specific threats. How would full BP handle any strong special attackers without Sylveon? How would it play around stuff like Bisharp or Mega Gyarados?

- Smeargle
Ingrain and Encore are nice, but I personally feel like the most important thing Smeargle provides for full BP teams is Focus Sash + Spore. It's a great fallback solution for when the opponent brings the most random shit to fully counter your team or when you fuck up. Whether Smeargle is absolutely necessary for full BP teams to have might be debatable, but it sure makes them a lot easier to play and I feel like losing it would hurt them a lot.

- Vaporeon
Another passer for Defense boost with much greater bulk and way better typing than Scolipede. Also generally runs Roar to make it easier for the full BP team to handle strong setup sweepers. Full BP teams without Zapdos need it to handle the likes of Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, it's probably the best answer to Azumarill most full BP teams have. Jukain showed that BP teams can still handle Fly spam just fine without it, but can full BP really get away with only running a single defensive booster?

Actually redundancy seems to be a common theme in full BP teams. Two answers to everything. Two defensive boosters, at least two Calm Mind users, two solid answers to setup sweepers, two Pokemon with Stored Power. This makes it a lot easier for full BP teams to play around... anything, really. Misplayed Vaporeon? All cool, Smeargle can still put their +4 sweeper to sleep. Espeon at low health because you fucked up? No problem, just use Sylveon to end the game. Smeargle at 1 HP and Ingrain isn't up? Don't worry, you have Magic Bounce anyway.

In my opinion this is where the fine line between 'acceptable' and 'fuck you for using this' might lie. Remove just one of BP's many answers to its alleged full counters and they at least won't be able to bring multiple hard counters to all of their checks anymore and will have to work for their wins.

In my opinion this is the point where we would able to guarantee that full Baton Pass teams don't get free wins against entire playstyles anymore. It should also stop them from feeling entirely formulaic, since - holy fuck - you now might only have a single hard counter (at best) to your opponents team archetype and you'll have to put some thought into how you use it.

Now this whole wall of text does of course assume that a) we - as a community - actually feel like full BP needs to be nerfed and b) agree it should still remain a viable playstyle. Otherwise we might as well leave it as it is or nerf it so far into the ground it'll never see the light of day again.

Jesus fuck, I wish I could hate this god-awful playstyle to death, but I still can't convince myself it's completely broken and deserves to be nerfed to death.
 
taunt hardly stops bp. mental herb, taunts of their own, attacking moves... i guess theres prankster taunt on thundurus (and lol sableye) but if you dont run it on thund your offensive team is probably getting steamrolled and you shouldnt have to run taunt (even though its a good option, usually others are better) just so you dont auto lose against some (BAN ME PLEASE) who decided to troll with a bp team.
Id appreciate if you didn't use terms like (BAN ME PLEASE) to make a point
 
Hello all, Hiphiphooray here. Not sure if anyone here will recognize me, but I actually was one of the first to popularize this style of Baton Pass chain teams and coined the term Defensive Baton Pass teams back in BW when they took effect. I am currently writting a guide for how to play and beat Baton Pass. That guide can be found here.

In that guide I conclude with the future of Baton Pass. That conclusion in a nutshell is basically this:

"We have seen that in order to build an effective Baton Pass team, we build it based on countering popular OU threats. We have also noted that there exists a small subset of uncommon pokemon that are virtually unbeatable (i.e. they hard counter all Baton Pass, example: prankster haze). From this its easy to see that the success of Baton Pass rests on a lack of creativity among the top-tier players.

The top tier players typically stick to using a specific subset of OU pokemon and those pokemon typically run a single useful set. By countering this subset, we can easily win with Baton Pass. Once Baton Pass becomes problematic or OverUsed itself, we will immediately see a drastic decrease in the success of Baton Pass. Once people start to lose to enough Baton Pass teams, they will view them as a competitive threat, and build teams capable of beating them every time by incorporating novel pokemon like haze users or prankster users."

What I see in this thread is enough to make me laugh. People still refuse to view Baton Pass as a competitively viable tactic and would rather ban in than learn to counter it. Looking back at the BW era, we could have easily banned weather users, but instead, we took them as viable and started using underused Pokemon like dugtrio to beat them.

Why aren't people doing that now? Be creative, go try to work with Pokemon that aren't OU powerhouses...

In conclusion, Baton Pass has a huge negative stigma about it from its early style of gimmicky play (shell smash gorebyss, etc). So much so that Smogon still refuses to accept Baton Pass teams into the RMT archives. But the truth is that Baton Pass is a competitively viable tactic and we have two options:
1. Get creative and introduce new pokemon to OU status to beat them.
2. Continue to dismiss it as gimmicky and ban in.
 
  • Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?: No, not really. Baton pass in itself is not, or ever been, a problem. Many people say it's a "luck based" thing like swagplay because you need a crit to stop it, but Baton Pass teams are generally high risk, high reward. If one piece of the puzzle collapses, the entire team is ruined, and that's extreme reliance on your teammates. If you can predict well and stop the opponent before they get defense boosts up and become nigh-unstoppable, they're done for. It's like any normal sweep for the most part, only it requires much more time, and is much more effective. I see nothing wrong with that; you shouldn't expect to be able to stop a sweep after it's started.
  • If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?: If my answer was yes, it would be Scolipede. As members before me have said, it's like a much better version of Ninjask (a M-EVO of sorts.)
  • Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable? : More like it would ruin an entire playstyle. Would it stop the baton pass teams? Yes, but by doing so you're removing an entire style of play from the metagame. That'd be like removing weather back in gen 5. Weather was a very common thing to build a team around. It's similar with baton pass. You just...don't do that. Swagplay I don't mind being banned. It was a purely luck-based factor. Baton passing is not luck based, and on the contrary it's based on prediction. One wrong move and you can be phased out, or hazed, and lose all of your boosts. and as I said before, that essentially means you either start over if you haven't lost too much, or you're done.
  • Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?: No. Baton pass is more than just a team function, it's an incredibly useful move when used well. I don't use it too often, but I would not want it banned.
  • Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.: No, not particularly. Until I've been proven otherwise, baton pass does not need any sort of ban.
 
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