Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Jukain]

I feel like every PRO BAN comment assumes that you are immediately up against the Baton Pass team at +6 all stats. The whole point of beating a Baton Pass team is beating them early. Simply having Thundurus or Mega Pinsir forces the enemy to lead Sylveon or Zapdos respectfully. If that isn't enough to stop the momentum then you are just playing wrong. :/

Outside of that, there are countless viable counters with correct prediction. Talonflame and Deoxys-S are two great ones that have been mentioned repetitively. No one seems to mention the fact that Volt-Turn + Priority is an insanely strong counter to Baton Pass.

Show me the replays.

 

[QuickBH]

Soooo you're admitting its usually in the best intetest to lead with smearg/scolipede? Because I notice that too with these teams, and there are ways to capitalise on that tendency. Its 1am so I may elaborate more tomorrow.

No don't lead with Smeargle lol I said baton pass out because focus sash and +2 speed lol. Scolipede leads is what make baton pass stupidly strong as you have a guaranteed +2 speed and then have so many options to switch in gain more stats and kill some more.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Soooo you're admitting its usually in the best intetest to lead with smearg/scolipede? Because I notice that too with these teams, and there are ways to capitalise on that tendency. Its 1am so I may elaborate more tomorrow.

Exactly. If they continue to lead Scolipede, then run a base 112+ speed user with trick. 1 Pokemon down and a terrible start for them...

 

[probationsmack]

One more thought, since the distinguishing characteristic between ninjask and scolipede in a baton pass chain is iron defense- is the culprit here that one move or the fact that weather was too overwhelming last gen for thenear exact same type of team to work?

OMG BAN IRON DEFENSE

 

[QuickBH]

One more thought, since the distinguishing characteristic between ninjask and scolipede in a baton pass chain is iron defense- is the culprit here that one move or the fact that weather was too overwhelming last gen for thenear exact same type of team to work?

Tbh if scolipede didn't get iron defense you still have Vaporeon and it would hardly make a difference to BP's brokenness it's his bulk and 25% from SR rather than 50 scolipede can actually take a hit. :O

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Here is a great example of beating Baton Pass with Volt-turn and priority

Hide

Your team: Magnezone / Scizor / Rotom-W / Talonflame
Opponent's team: Scolipede / Smeargle / Espeon / Sylveon / Vaporeon / Zapdos

Baton Pass Tester sent out Magnezone!
Future Mud Dr. sent out Scolipede!

Start of turn 1
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 2
The foe's Scolipede used Substitute!
The foe's Scolipede made a substitute!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede's substitute faded!
Baton Pass Tester called Magnezone back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Talonflame!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 3
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Talonflame used Brave Bird!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 4
Future Mud Dr. called Scolipede back!
Future Mud Dr. sent out Vaporeon!

Talonflame used Brave Bird!
The foe's Vaporeon lost 52% of its health!
Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

The foe's Vaporeon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 5
Talonflame used Brave Bird!
The foe's Vaporeon lost 53% of its health!
The foe's Vaporeon fainted!
Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

Future Mud Dr. sent out Smeargle!

Start of turn 6
Talonflame used Brave Bird!
A critical hit!
The foe's Smeargle hung on using its Focus Sash!
The foe's Smeargle lost 99% of its health!
Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

The foe's Smeargle used Spore!
Talonflame fell asleep!

Start of turn 7
Baton Pass Tester called Talonflame back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Magnezone!

The foe's Smeargle used Baton Pass!
Future Mud Dr. called Smeargle back!
Future Mud Dr. sent out Scolipede!

Start of turn 8
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 9
The foe's Scolipede used Substitute!
The foe's Scolipede made a substitute!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede's substitute faded!
Baton Pass Tester called Magnezone back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Scizor!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 10
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Scizor used Bullet Punch!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 11
Scizor used Bullet Punch!
The foe's Scolipede lost 50% of its health!
The foe's Scolipede fainted!

Give me a scenario where the Baton Passer should have done something different.

 

[probationsmack]

Tbh if scolipede didn't get iron defense you still have Vaporeon and it would hardly make a difference to BP's brokenness it's his bulk and 25% from SR rather than 50 scolipede can actually take a hit. :O

My point is the scolipede usually isnt doing offensive things. You could make this exact same type of team last gen substituting in Ninjask while still using a vaporeon for physical bulk. Hell, galewings didnt exist either.

 

[Jukain]

Here is a great example of beating Baton Pass with Volt-turn and priority

Hide

Your team: Magnezone / Scizor / Rotom-W / Talonflame
Opponent's team: Scolipede / Smeargle / Espeon / Sylveon / Vaporeon / Zapdos

Baton Pass Tester sent out Magnezone!
Future Mud Dr. sent out Scolipede!

Start of turn 1
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 2
The foe's Scolipede used Substitute!
The foe's Scolipede made a substitute!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede's substitute faded!
Baton Pass Tester called Magnezone back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Talonflame!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 3
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Talonflame used Brave Bird!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 4
Future Mud Dr. called Scolipede back!
Future Mud Dr. sent out Vaporeon!

Talonflame used Brave Bird!
The foe's Vaporeon lost 52% of its health!
Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

The foe's Vaporeon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 5
Talonflame used Brave Bird!
The foe's Vaporeon lost 53% of its health!
The foe's Vaporeon fainted!
Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

Future Mud Dr. sent out Smeargle!

Start of turn 6
Talonflame used Brave Bird!
A critical hit!
The foe's Smeargle hung on using its Focus Sash!
The foe's Smeargle lost 99% of its health!
Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

The foe's Smeargle used Spore!
Talonflame fell asleep!

Start of turn 7
Baton Pass Tester called Talonflame back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Magnezone!

The foe's Smeargle used Baton Pass!
Future Mud Dr. called Smeargle back!
Future Mud Dr. sent out Scolipede!

Start of turn 8
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 9
The foe's Scolipede used Substitute!
The foe's Scolipede made a substitute!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede's substitute faded!
Baton Pass Tester called Magnezone back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Scizor!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 10
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Scizor used Bullet Punch!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 11
Scizor used Bullet Punch!
The foe's Scolipede lost 50% of its health!
The foe's Scolipede fainted!

Give me a scenario where the Baton Passer should have done something different.

Not went out to Vaporeon on Talonflame... Try again.

 

[acestriker19]

I feel like every PRO BAN comment assumes that you are immediately up against the Baton Pass team at +6 all stats. The whole point of beating a Baton Pass team is beating them early. Simply having Thundurus or Mega Pinsir forces the enemy to lead Sylveon or Zapdos respectfully. If that isn't enough to stop the momentum then you are just playing wrong. :/

Prediction is a two way street what if the opponent predicts that I predict that Sylveon has to come out because of my thundurus and instead leads with scolipede then I'm screwed. Prediction =/= skill btw. So basically having a OU viable counter makes a match boil down to a prediction coin flip that decides the match within the first few turns.

 

[vox_amoris]

Yes, I really don't get what you're trying to say there. I mean, okay, the ladder doesn't matter. What's your point? (genuinely asking because I have no idea)
BP doesn't have a lot of (reliable) ways to be dealt with, therefore I think it needs some kind of nerf, that's basically it, imo.

Baton Pass has a hard counter to it, albeit one that people seem unwilling to run because it doesn't suit their preferred team setup. If the only argument against changing one moveslot on your team is that it leaves you vulnerable to other types of teams on a ladder that gives you a nice forfeit button if you absolutely can't stand playing against BP teams, I can't really answer that without being uncivil. My point that the ladder doesn't matter was made because I was frustrated with seeing it pop up as part of an argument so frequently. I let it annoy me to where I said something about it, and although I feel it is true, it isn't relevant to the Baton Pass discussion. I won't continue to harp on it.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Here is a great example of beating Baton Pass with Volt-turn and priority

Hide

Your team: Magnezone / Scizor / Rotom-W / Talonflame
Opponent's team: Scolipede / Smeargle / Espeon / Sylveon / Vaporeon / Zapdos

Baton Pass Tester sent out Magnezone!
Future Mud Dr. sent out Scolipede!

Start of turn 1
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 2
The foe's Scolipede used Substitute!
The foe's Scolipede made a substitute!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede's substitute faded!
Baton Pass Tester called Magnezone back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Talonflame!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 3
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Talonflame used Brave Bird!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 4
Future Mud Dr. called Scolipede back!
Future Mud Dr. sent out Vaporeon!

Talonflame used Brave Bird!
The foe's Vaporeon lost 52% of its health!
Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

The foe's Vaporeon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 5
Talonflame used Brave Bird!
The foe's Vaporeon lost 53% of its health!
The foe's Vaporeon fainted!
Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

Future Mud Dr. sent out Smeargle!

Start of turn 6
Talonflame used Brave Bird!
A critical hit!
The foe's Smeargle hung on using its Focus Sash!
The foe's Smeargle lost 99% of its health!
Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

The foe's Smeargle used Spore!
Talonflame fell asleep!

Start of turn 7
Baton Pass Tester called Talonflame back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Magnezone!

The foe's Smeargle used Baton Pass!
Future Mud Dr. called Smeargle back!
Future Mud Dr. sent out Scolipede!

Start of turn 8
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 9
The foe's Scolipede used Substitute!
The foe's Scolipede made a substitute!

Magnezone used Volt Switch!
The foe's Scolipede's substitute faded!
Baton Pass Tester called Magnezone back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Scizor!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 10
The foe's Scolipede used Protect!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

Scizor used Bullet Punch!
The foe's Scolipede protected itself!

The foe's Scolipede's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scolipede's Speed rose!

Start of turn 11
Scizor used Bullet Punch!
The foe's Scolipede lost 50% of its health!
The foe's Scolipede fainted!

Give me a scenario where the Baton Passer should have done something different.

Sac Mr. Mime to get a free switch in for Smeargle to Spore, or Vaporeon to take a hit and then use Acid Armor. Of all members, Mr. Mime is the one least likely to be useful.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Sac Mr. Mime to get a free switch in for Smeargle to Spore, or Vaporeon to take a hit and then use Acid Armor. Of all members, Mr. Mime is the one least likely to be useful.

If they have Mr. Mime over Zapdos they lose 100% of the time to Mega Pinsir?

Not went out to Vaporeon on Talonflame... Try again.

Are you suggesting letting something die instead like above? Its the only way if they have Mr. Mime.

 

[HauntedPumpkin]

Baton Pass has a hard counter to it, albeit one that people seem unwilling to run because it doesn't suit their preferred team setup. If the only argument against changing one moveslot on your team is that it leaves you vulnerable to other types of teams on a ladder that gives you a nice forfeit button if you absolutely can't stand playing against BP teams, I can't really answer that without being uncivil. My point that the ladder doesn't matter was made because I was frustrated with seeing it pop up as part of an argument so frequently. I let it annoy me to where I said something about it, and although I feel it is true, it isn't relevant to the Baton Pass discussion. I won't continue to harp on it.

Which counter is that? Haze? It's been showed multiple times that Haze is not an automatic win against BP teams, since with some smart play they can just take Quag out with Stored Power or Sleep him.

It's also not that black and white. You're assuming anything and everything has Haze in their move pool AND can forgo one of their precious move slot for an specific type of team you are otherwise helpless against. This is simply not how it goes.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Hide

Your team: Scolipede / Mr. Mime / Smeargle / Vaporeon / Sylveon / Espeon
Opponent's team: Magnezone / Talonflame / Rotom-W / Scizor / Thundurus / Pinsir

Baton Pass Tester sent out Scolipede!
also bp tester sent out Talonflame!
Baton Pass Tester: ur choiced righT?
Baton Pass Tester: use brave bird
also bp tester: youre obviously going to protect because u turn talon is common now
also bp tester: choiced
Baton Pass Tester: use brave bird

Start of turn 1
Baton Pass Tester called Scolipede back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Mr. Mime!

The foe's Talonflame used Brave Bird!
A critical hit!
Mr. Mime lost 284 HP! (100% of its health)
Mr. Mime fainted!
The foe's Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

Baton Pass Tester sent out Vaporeon!

Baton Pass Tester: switch to magnezone
also bp tester: k

Start of turn 2
also bp tester called Talonflame back!
also bp tester sent out Magnezone!

Vaporeon used Scald!
The foe's Magnezone lost 40% of its health!
The foe's Magnezone was burned!

The foe's Magnezone was hurt by its burn!
Baton Pass Tester: use volt-switch
also bp tester: got em

Start of turn 3
Baton Pass Tester called Vaporeon back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Sylveon!

The foe's Magnezone used Volt Switch!
Sylveon lost 147 HP! (37% of its health)
Baton Pass Tester: go to talon flame
also bp tester called Magnezone back!
also bp tester sent out Talonflame!

Sylveon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Baton Pass Tester: bravebird
also bp tester: turn?
also bp tester: k

Start of turn 4
Baton Pass Tester called Sylveon back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Espeon!

The foe's Talonflame used Brave Bird!
Espeon lost 333 HP! (100% of its health)
Espeon fainted!
The foe's Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

Baton Pass Tester sent out Smeargle!

Baton Pass Tester: go to something random so I can spore

Start of turn 5
also bp tester called Talonflame back!
also bp tester sent out Rotom-W!

Smeargle used Spore!
The foe's Rotom-W fell asleep!

Baton Pass Tester: go to magnezone and voltturn
also bp tester: back to talon?
Baton Pass Tester: magnezone
also bp tester: k

Start of turn 6
also bp tester called Rotom-W back!
also bp tester sent out Magnezone!

Smeargle used Baton Pass!
Baton Pass Tester called Smeargle back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Sylveon!

Sylveon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Magnezone was hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 7
The foe's Magnezone used Volt Switch!
Sylveon lost 115 HP! (29% of its health)
Baton Pass Tester: i can't do anything. Its gg

The combination of Volt-Switch and Talonflame seems like its unbeatable if played right. Anyone think they can beat it 100% of the time? Lets test it!

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

If they have Mr. Mime over Zapdos they lose 100% of the time to Mega Pinsir?

Well if they have Zapdos and have already scouted out CB Brave Bird then they don't need to sac anything.

 

[Magnemite]

Hide

Your team: Scolipede / Mr. Mime / Smeargle / Vaporeon / Sylveon / Espeon
Opponent's team: Magnezone / Talonflame / Rotom-W / Scizor / Thundurus / Pinsir

Baton Pass Tester sent out Scolipede!
also bp tester sent out Talonflame!
Baton Pass Tester: ur choiced righT?
Baton Pass Tester: use brave bird
also bp tester: youre obviously going to protect because u turn talon is common now
also bp tester: choiced
Baton Pass Tester: use brave bird

Start of turn 1
Baton Pass Tester called Scolipede back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Mr. Mime!

The foe's Talonflame used Brave Bird!
A critical hit!
Mr. Mime lost 284 HP! (100% of its health)
Mr. Mime fainted!
The foe's Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

Baton Pass Tester sent out Vaporeon!

Baton Pass Tester: switch to magnezone
also bp tester: k

Start of turn 2
also bp tester called Talonflame back!
also bp tester sent out Magnezone!

Vaporeon used Scald!
The foe's Magnezone lost 40% of its health!
The foe's Magnezone was burned!

The foe's Magnezone was hurt by its burn!
Baton Pass Tester: use volt-switch
also bp tester: got em

Start of turn 3
Baton Pass Tester called Vaporeon back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Sylveon!

The foe's Magnezone used Volt Switch!
Sylveon lost 147 HP! (37% of its health)
Baton Pass Tester: go to talon flame
also bp tester called Magnezone back!
also bp tester sent out Talonflame!

Sylveon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Baton Pass Tester: bravebird
also bp tester: turn?
also bp tester: k

Start of turn 4
Baton Pass Tester called Sylveon back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Espeon!

The foe's Talonflame used Brave Bird!
Espeon lost 333 HP! (100% of its health)
Espeon fainted!
The foe's Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

Baton Pass Tester sent out Smeargle!

Baton Pass Tester: go to something random so I can spore

Start of turn 5
also bp tester called Talonflame back!
also bp tester sent out Rotom-W!

Smeargle used Spore!
The foe's Rotom-W fell asleep!

Baton Pass Tester: go to magnezone and voltturn
also bp tester: back to talon?
Baton Pass Tester: magnezone
also bp tester: k

Start of turn 6
also bp tester called Rotom-W back!
also bp tester sent out Magnezone!

Smeargle used Baton Pass!
Baton Pass Tester called Smeargle back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Sylveon!

Sylveon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Magnezone was hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 7
The foe's Magnezone used Volt Switch!
Sylveon lost 115 HP! (29% of its health)
Baton Pass Tester: i can't do anything. Its gg

The combination of Volt-Switch and Talonflame seems like its unbeatable if played right. Anyone think they can beat it 100% of the time? Lets test it!

Since it's clear from the chat in the logs that you're just telling another person what to do against you instead of actually battling another player, I don't see how these logs even help at all. How hard is it just to play an actual game between to competent players who are both trying to win?

And to answer your question, just use a freaking Zapdos. It isn't rocket science, pal.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

This is the given situation that is unbeatable.

Hide

Your team: Scolipede / Mr. Mime / Smeargle / Vaporeon / Sylveon / Espeon
Opponent's team: Magnezone / Talonflame / Rotom-W / Scizor / Thundurus / Pinsir

Baton Pass Tester sent out Scolipede!
also bp tester sent out Talonflame!

Start of turn 1
Baton Pass Tester called Scolipede back!
Baton Pass Tester sent out Mr. Mime!

The foe's Talonflame used Brave Bird!
Mr. Mime lost 284 HP! (100% of its health)
Mr. Mime fainted!
The foe's Talonflame is damaged by recoil!

Baton Pass Tester sent out Smeargle!

Start of turn 2
also bp tester called Talonflame back!
also bp tester sent out Rotom-W!

Smeargle used Spore!
The foe's Rotom-W fell asleep!

Start of turn 3
also bp tester called Rotom-W back!
also bp tester sent out Magnezone!

Smeargle used Baton Pass!

From here anything will die to Volt-Switch + BraveBird. All you need to do is have something absorb the spore.

 

[Arcticblast]

Hiphiphooray just stop, if you're literally telling your opponent how to play it's absolutely worthless

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Hiphiphooray just stop, if you're literally telling your opponent how to play it's absolutely worthless

The point is to show that its very beatable with just a simple combination of strong priority and volt-turn. I don't understand why people don't use this more. Prediction isn't even needed in this case.

 

[vox_amoris]

Which counter is that? Haze? It's been showed multiple times that Haze is not an automatic win against BP teams, since with some smart play they can just take Quag out with Stored Power or Sleep him.

It's also not that black and white. You're assuming anything and everything has Haze in their move pool AND can forgo one of their precious move slot for an specific type of team you are otherwise helpless against. This is simply not how it goes.

Nobody ever said Haze is "an automatic win against BP teams." So in that case, Quag or whoever has Haze is your win condition and you play to keep him alive. Just like you would in any other matchup where you had a win condition. Yes, it may be difficult against a smart opponent. Yes, it may draw out the battle. As for the Stored Power kills Quag argument, that means you refused to try and Haze before several boosts were accumulated. Which to me is like complaining about being unable to get in your Rapid Spinner because you let your opponent set up Stealth Rock, Sticky Web, and 3 layers of Spikes.

As has been stated many times before, no team can ever hope to counter everything, no matter how well balanced it is on paper. So if you refuse to include something known to help counteract Baton Pass, that is your choice. You can always refuse to play against those teams, forfeit, and look for another game.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Nobody ever said Haze is "an automatic win against BP teams." So in that case, Quag or whoever has Haze is your win condition and you play to keep him alive. Just like you would in any other matchup where you had a win condition. Yes, it may be difficult against a smart opponent. Yes, it may draw out the battle. As for the Stored Power kills Quag argument, that means you refused to try and Haze before several boosts were accumulated. Which to me is like complaining about being unable to get in your Rapid Spinner because you let your opponent set up Stealth Rock, Sticky Web, and 3 layers of Spikes.

As has been stated many times before, no team can ever hope to counter everything, no matter how well balanced it is on paper. So if you refuse to include something known to help counteract Baton Pass, that is your choice. You can always refuse to play against those teams, forfeit, and look for another game.

Exactly. Lead Quad and spam haze all day. Stored Power at +0 isn't going to do anything. DON'T let them setup. The opening is all that matters. Keep pressure on early and don't let down. If someone wants to play Baton Pass against my 3 Pokemon team lets do it. Between Talonflame and Volt-Turn you can shut the entire Baton Pass strategy every time. Just get something to absorb the spore.

edit: I just don't understand why people think its so unbeatable. Please send it into suspect. It will get destroyed by some many unique combinations. As I said before, Baton Pass Success rests on the OVERUSED aspect of OU. To beat it your team should bring something unique, and not be a cookie cutter like everyone seems to want.

 

[Arcticblast]

Between Talonflame and Volt-Turn you can shut the entire Baton Pass strategy every time. Just get something to absorb the spore.

Gliscor.

Your move.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Gliscor.

Your move.

So you're running Gliscor Zapdos Mr. Mime Smeargle Sylveon Espeon Vaporeon and Scolipede? Sure Gliscor can be used, but then you are weak to a whole new set of problems lol. Here we are discussing the use of Mr. Mime over Zapdos/Gliscor. If you do this, you lose to Mega Pinsir and Talonflame.

If Scolipede, Espeon, Sylveon and Vaporeon are all forced to be used, then we pick between Gliscor, Zapdos, Mr. Mime and Smeargle. Any combination leaves you open to another threat. Thus bringing me right back to my original point: Baton Pass success is based on the fact that the OU meta is too predictable at top tiers of play. Noone runs Perish Song? Throw out Mr. Mime. Everyone is Volt-Turning? Use Gliscor.

 

[atomicllamas]

So you're running Gliscor Zapdos Mr. Mime Smeargle Sylveon Espeon Vaporeon and Scolipede? Sure Gliscor can be used, but then you are weak to a whole new set of problems lol. Here we are discussing the use of Mr. Mime over Zapdos/Gliscor. If you do this, you lose to Mega Pinsir and Talonflame

Okay, so the solution is to only run fly spam teams with heavy volt turn elements. You're right, that's balanced.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Okay, so the solution is to only run fly spam teams with heavy volt turn elements. You're right, that's balanced.

No, I am proving a point that running Mr. Mime over Zapdos/Gliscor leaves you weak to the majority of Volt-turn teams.

 

[Magnemite]

The point is to show that its very beatable with just a simple combination of strong priority and volt-turn. I don't understand why people don't use this more. Prediction isn't even needed in this case.

You're seriously missing the whole point here. No one is saying that BP is literally impossible to beat. Yes, in certain scenarios, it is possible for a player using a normal team to beat a good player using BP. However, in the overwhelming majority of cases, the game is decided at team preview. That is simply unnacceptable if we want a balanced metagame. We do not want to ban BP because it lets you win every game without even thinking. We want to ban it because it lets you win almost every game without even thinking. We want to ban BP because it is cheap and almost impossible to beat in the hands of any decent player without using obscure counters (MUSHARNA AND MURKROW LGI) or getting incredibly lucky. If this is your idea of a good metagame, then I don't know what to tell you at this point.