I disagree Scolipede doesn't die in turn one unless you have out a special attacker, Talonflame, Pinsir. If those are not out Scolipede doesn't usually die
They don't understand "Substitute + Speed Boost + Protect" If a player sees hyper offensive counters like Talonflame and Pinsir, the player simply won't lead with Scolipede.
No, you're the one missing the entire point.
I agree that Scolipede is the biggest offender in BP teams and that a ban against him would make these teams much more manageable, but your whole argument is filled with very ugly exaggerations. You claim the opponent made no mistakes when he clearly did, that Scolipede overcame X pokemon when he didnt face it, that he can tank a 3x shell smash cloyster when that would be enough to kill 3 Scolipedes at +2 def, etc.
I get that you really really REALLY want Scolipede to be banned, but straight up lying to make him look insanely stronger is not the way to go.
Also please stop using the word "uncompetitive" randomly. He is merely the best at getting free boosts, which are not uncompetitive themselves since you need an entire team dedicated to preventing them from being lost in the first place. If anything Scoli would be broken, but he needs 3~4 other specific pokes to check 95% of his counters in order to be broken. Trade Sylveon, Espeon and Smeargle for anything else you want and see if Scoli's support is still godlike.
Downgrading to Ninjask means you :
- now need Vaporeon/Sashed Smeargle to boost defense
- cant set up against non-fighting priority
- have trouble dealing with physical HO in general
- most likely cant start the chain again, which you wont even need to do unless your opponent has several BP checks/scored lucky crits
Scolipede ban wont solve the BP problem entirely, only increase the number of counters, or rather, make the current checks more reliable. If anything, banning Espeon would open twice as many options to deal with BP.
Hell, people were testing an agility Zapdos lead to see if a blanket speed boost ban would fix everything and most teams still instalost against it.
Let's first enlighten you to the meaning of "uncompetitive".
"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that
take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions--
and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive.
This can be luck-based, but doesn't have to be (see: 4th gen Wobb, who was effective enough then to remove the ability to "do anything about it" largely from the enemy player, and was banned for uncompetitive-ness); but most uncompetitive strategies that are banned usually have a high appeal to luck.
While there is always luck involved in Pokemon,
the problem is the degree to which control is taken away from the player. Removal of autonomy is the key to an uncompetitive tiering decision or clause."
Scolipede, due to his speed, bulk, versatility, ability to boost speed freely and defense simultaneously, AND re-set multiple times throughout the match takes away autonomy from the game. In other words: you can't do anything about it.
[Enter your niche counters here]
Secondly, allow me to reiterate:
this is a thread to discuss how to make Baton Pass archetype more manageable, not destroy the playstyle or remove Baton Pass entirely.
And third, a Pokemon isn't banned because it "can't be defeated". A Pokemon is banned if it is deemed uncompetitive, broken, and/or overcentralizing.
Again, without Scolipede's overwhelming support to the chain, the Baton Pass playstyle is far more manageable. Will it still be powerful? Sure, but manageable, much easier to check and counter and stop the chain, and far more difficult to re-start the chain.
And allow me to reword it; I don't mean Scolipede tanks x3 Cloyster by himself; I mean he enables the team to tank it, where it wouldn't be able to otherwise, and can outstall even D-Dancing Charizard X. And note: I specifically stated these replays are not flawless gameplay on my part or my opponents;
mistakes are inevitably made in the heat of battle even among the best of players. But calling a move a mistake like a second Dragon Dance is entirely subjective.
Ninjask has no further relevancy in this thread, and he isn't to be used as a Reductio ad Absurdum. We've already established Ninjask, while access to Speed Boost and Protect, Sub, etc, simply lacks the bulk and overall functionality to his superior counterpart Scolipede. So lacking, Ninjask is usually forced to run Focus Sash, and rarely able to set up more than once, with far more counter-measures.
