When do you plan on setting those stealth rocks up? While the opposing Scolipede is subbing, or Epseon setting up with calm mind?
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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When do you plan on setting those stealth rocks up? While the opposing Scolipede is subbing, or Epseon setting up with calm mind?
Oh those calcs were with rocks up, my bad. Didn't mean to include that, the calc sorta just does that :P Editing post now...
See what you're missing is the fact that BP has numerous countermeasures to stop these threats. Sylveon boosts on Thundurus, it doesn't just sit there and get its ass kicked. And when it boosts, it kills with Hyper Voice. It also boosts on Landorus, as does Zapdos. And Vaporeon threatens with its STAB Water-type attacks. Mega Char Y gives BP teams a hard time, but again, Sylveon will do pretty decently boosting against it, and it's easy to stall it out of Fire Blast PP. Furthermore, BP has Smeargle's Spore to stop all these threats in their tracks and continue on their way. That these attackers can beat BP is a gross overstatement, when there are numerous ways to get around them.
Here's the real reason that Baton Pass is finally getting this discussion.
In previous generations, Baton Pass has been around, and it was annoying, and it could even win against good teams played by good players. But it wasn't particularly consistent, and it wasn't particularly uniform. BP users had an uphill battle against dominant archetypes like weather offense and had to make a bunch of choices in their teambuilding that exposed them to different pokemon. The fact that there was so much variance in playing BP made it an unattractive strategy to most top-tier players through gens 4 and 5, and it was mostly relegated to the occasional appearance on the ladder.
What has changed Baton Pass in Gen 6 is not the addition of any particular weapon like Scolipede or Sylveon, because BP has had fantastic threats in the past. They've made BP more viable, but not broken. What has changed is this:
Baton Pass is Pokemon's first fully competitive solved team archetype.
Baton Pass is figured out. There is a right way to build Baton Pass. Scolipede, Espeon, Smeargle, Sylveon, Vaporeon, Zapdos (with, to my knowledge, one possible variation - Mr. Mime). Other changes that are made, or pokemon that are included, are almost universally going to make this team worse. Although I'm no BP expert, I'm pretty sure that even the items and movesets are pretty much set in stone for making a Baton Pass team.
I have no experience with generations 1 or 2 but I can say with confidence that I have never seen anything like this since my time in pokemon. Even heavily formulaic teams like Rain Dance offense in gen 3 had comparatively large amounts of variation that could personalize a team or tweak it to perform better against certain threats in the metagame. What we are facing is in some sense both the bane of and the dream of a competitive pokemon player - an optimized team archetype. We all set out to make the best team possible for our strategy when we teambuild, well, here it is: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! etc. etc.
This brings me to my next point:
The decision to nerf/ban Baton Pass is not a balance decision. It is a philosophical decision.
It's not a balance decision because, as has been established, Baton Pass is very beatable. In fact, the same decisionmaking applies regarding Baton Pass as any other archetype when you're teambuilding - should I include the pokemon/moves that give me game against this strategy? It's up to you to decide if your chances against BP are going to be better or worse. The thing is, the fact that Baton Pass is optimized magnifies the importance of this decision because it's basically a binary - having a certain somewhat small set of moves/pokemon beats it, not having them makes your chances pretty dim. But this isn't like Kangaskhan or Mega-Lucario, where you have a very small pool of counters to a single pokemon. This is an entire type of team we're discussing. This is the consequence of having a team archetype in OU which is completely figured out.
What I'm trying to get across here is that the "problems" people are identifying with Baton Pass don't stem from the power of the move or strategy. They stem from the fact that the best Baton Pass team is known. It has counters, and it has things that it beats, and they are mostly known as well. That can make matches seem coinflippy. That can make the game more about team match-ups. And, depending on your point of view, that could be a problem.
So the decision is this:
What is competitive pokemon about?
Is competitive pokemon about making the best team possible? That's my view. If so, then banning Baton Pass now seems contrary to what we're all about. If the game is about the search for the best or most optimized team, why would we punish users for finding it? It's not as though Baton Pass is some unstoppable juggernaut rolling through the metagame, rather, it's a solid strategy that has been pushed to its furthest extent. If anything, the fact that the strategy is figured out is a reason to keep it in OU. It's not going to change much. It's a known quantity. So whatever adaptations or changes need to be made to teams to beat Baton Pass can be made with the knowledge they'll work over the long run. Any minor tweaks made to the strategy can in turn be countered, but we aren't going to see some revolutionary Baton Pass team that bypasses all of the counters and takes the meta by the storm.
On the other hand, you might be of the view that competitive pokemon is about maximizing battling skill. If so, then banning Baton Pass, and in general "figured-out" archetypes, is pretty much a no-brainer. When a strategy is so finely-tuned that its strengths and weaknesses are pretty much set in stone, the actual battle can feel like a formality. If you have the necessary tools, then you'll win; if you don't, back to the drawing board, irrespective of your personal abilities as a battler.
I've written about this before, at length, here. I would hope that people would read it, and in so doing gain a better foundational understanding of the disputes we have here at Smogon. The distinction between the focus on teambuilding and battling is, in fact, what underlies most of our balance discussions. But I'd like to emphasize that the consequences of the decision we make here, which is the first of its kind, are likely to be fairly far-reaching. We're setting a precedent here about what to do with a strategy that's been figured out, and what we decide is probably how we'll approach the next strategy that's figured out. So for those of you who hate Baton Pass, feel free to vote to ban, but what happens when the best Rain team is made? Or the best HO team? Or the best stall team? Will you be willing to get rid of them, too?
Think about it.
In previous generations, Baton Pass has been around, and it was annoying, and it could even win against good teams played by good players. But it wasn't particularly consistent, and it wasn't particularly uniform. BP users had an uphill battle against dominant archetypes like weather offense and had to make a bunch of choices in their teambuilding that exposed them to different pokemon. The fact that there was so much variance in playing BP made it an unattractive strategy to most top-tier players through gens 4 and 5, and it was mostly relegated to the occasional appearance on the ladder.
What has changed Baton Pass in Gen 6 is not the addition of any particular weapon like Scolipede or Sylveon, because BP has had fantastic threats in the past. They've made BP more viable, but not broken. What has changed is this:
Baton Pass is Pokemon's first fully competitive solved team archetype.
Baton Pass is figured out. There is a right way to build Baton Pass. Scolipede, Espeon, Smeargle, Sylveon, Vaporeon, Zapdos (with, to my knowledge, one possible variation - Mr. Mime). Other changes that are made, or pokemon that are included, are almost universally going to make this team worse. Although I'm no BP expert, I'm pretty sure that even the items and movesets are pretty much set in stone for making a Baton Pass team.
I have no experience with generations 1 or 2 but I can say with confidence that I have never seen anything like this since my time in pokemon. Even heavily formulaic teams like Rain Dance offense in gen 3 had comparatively large amounts of variation that could personalize a team or tweak it to perform better against certain threats in the metagame. What we are facing is in some sense both the bane of and the dream of a competitive pokemon player - an optimized team archetype. We all set out to make the best team possible for our strategy when we teambuild, well, here it is: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! etc. etc.
This brings me to my next point:
The decision to nerf/ban Baton Pass is not a balance decision. It is a philosophical decision.
It's not a balance decision because, as has been established, Baton Pass is very beatable. In fact, the same decisionmaking applies regarding Baton Pass as any other archetype when you're teambuilding - should I include the pokemon/moves that give me game against this strategy? It's up to you to decide if your chances against BP are going to be better or worse. The thing is, the fact that Baton Pass is optimized magnifies the importance of this decision because it's basically a binary - having a certain somewhat small set of moves/pokemon beats it, not having them makes your chances pretty dim. But this isn't like Kangaskhan or Mega-Lucario, where you have a very small pool of counters to a single pokemon. This is an entire type of team we're discussing. This is the consequence of having a team archetype in OU which is completely figured out.
What I'm trying to get across here is that the "problems" people are identifying with Baton Pass don't stem from the power of the move or strategy. They stem from the fact that the best Baton Pass team is known. It has counters, and it has things that it beats, and they are mostly known as well. That can make matches seem coinflippy. That can make the game more about team match-ups. And, depending on your point of view, that could be a problem.
So the decision is this:
What is competitive pokemon about?
Is competitive pokemon about making the best team possible? That's my view. If so, then banning Baton Pass now seems contrary to what we're all about. If the game is about the search for the best or most optimized team, why would we punish users for finding it? It's not as though Baton Pass is some unstoppable juggernaut rolling through the metagame, rather, it's a solid strategy that has been pushed to its furthest extent. If anything, the fact that the strategy is figured out is a reason to keep it in OU. It's not going to change much. It's a known quantity. So whatever adaptations or changes need to be made to teams to beat Baton Pass can be made with the knowledge they'll work over the long run. Any minor tweaks made to the strategy can in turn be countered, but we aren't going to see some revolutionary Baton Pass team that bypasses all of the counters and takes the meta by the storm.
On the other hand, you might be of the view that competitive pokemon is about maximizing battling skill. If so, then banning Baton Pass, and in general "figured-out" archetypes, is pretty much a no-brainer. When a strategy is so finely-tuned that its strengths and weaknesses are pretty much set in stone, the actual battle can feel like a formality. If you have the necessary tools, then you'll win; if you don't, back to the drawing board, irrespective of your personal abilities as a battler.
I've written about this before, at length, here. I would hope that people would read it, and in so doing gain a better foundational understanding of the disputes we have here at Smogon. The distinction between the focus on teambuilding and battling is, in fact, what underlies most of our balance discussions. But I'd like to emphasize that the consequences of the decision we make here, which is the first of its kind, are likely to be fairly far-reaching. We're setting a precedent here about what to do with a strategy that's been figured out, and what we decide is probably how we'll approach the next strategy that's figured out. So for those of you who hate Baton Pass, feel free to vote to ban, but what happens when the best Rain team is made? Or the best HO team? Or the best stall team? Will you be willing to get rid of them, too?
Think about it.
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When playing against BP your not playing 1 vs 6 you know? Sure if you leave your specially oriented Thundurus in and watch Sylveon boost you will get your ass kicked but who does that? If Thundurus stopped Scolipede and Vaporeon from giving Sylveon def boosts he has done his job, just switch to Scizor, Talonflame or any other physical priority user and do massiv damage to Sylveon before it can escape. Even if the BP player predicts your switch to switch himself that just means he didnt get any special boost and you can just switch again.
I'm going to say that we shouldn't approach banning it like a philosophical question. If its broken (forces you to run obscure counters) or if its just too uncompetitive (the match is decided before it starts and removes strategy from the game) we should ban it. I don't think we need to worry about "the far reaching implications of a ban", or whether its morally justifiable or whatever to ban it.
The problem, rachet67, is that the way you view the metagame is going to influence whether you think that Baton Pass is "broken" or "uncompetitive". You can't use those terms before establishing a philosophical grounding that determines how they function. Your opinions on what those words mean change radically depending on if you think Pokemon is primarily about teambuilding or battling, and that's what my whole post was about.
Well i already post a thread like this but was deleted a time ago(my fault)im a 1700-1800 player and my main team is a Volt-Turn team and i cannot beat BP exepting by a lucky critical
The really problem of baton pass is that almost don't have counters, and almost every noob can use it correctly and copy/paste Rate My teams
The really only 1 counter to baton pass is haze quagsire,Unaware Clefable don't ignores the Atk boost of Stored power and is 2hko by stored power with so many boost(only with the stored power eff)
The stadistics? Around a 85% of the teams have no chance to baton pass and if you want boost a charizard or dnite with dragon dance to counter you can have a bit of problems with the substitutes, and give time to use iron defense to max, and at that point you only are going to have a dragon dance x3/4(2.5/3 atk) not enough to stop them from pass to sylveon or vaporeon just for toxic/scald you
A solution?
I think that the most viable solution is ban scollipede and ninjask combination of Baton pass + Speed boost
That gives a free outspeed game, 3 or 2 turns and you will be the faster on all the battle, giving you a unfair advantage
Well that's what i think (sorry for the bad english)
The really problem of baton pass is that almost don't have counters, and almost every noob can use it correctly and copy/paste Rate My teams
The really only 1 counter to baton pass is haze quagsire,Unaware Clefable don't ignores the Atk boost of Stored power and is 2hko by stored power with so many boost(only with the stored power eff)
The stadistics? Around a 85% of the teams have no chance to baton pass and if you want boost a charizard or dnite with dragon dance to counter you can have a bit of problems with the substitutes, and give time to use iron defense to max, and at that point you only are going to have a dragon dance x3/4(2.5/3 atk) not enough to stop them from pass to sylveon or vaporeon just for toxic/scald you
A solution?
I think that the most viable solution is ban scollipede and ninjask combination of Baton pass + Speed boost
That gives a free outspeed game, 3 or 2 turns and you will be the faster on all the battle, giving you a unfair advantage
Well that's what i think (sorry for the bad english)
I appreciate your points that you bring up and the philosophical aspect but as to your last point -
"So for those of you who hate Baton Pass, feel free to vote to ban, but what happens when the best Rain team is made? Or the best HO team? Or the best stall team? Will you be willing to get rid of them, too?"
There is no optimized Stall, Rain or HO team. And if there were, it would be one or two certain pokemon that pushed it to that level, not the team as a whole. There is nothing that works as such an optimized team as Baton Pass.
Lucario-M was banned, Kangaskhan-M was banned, all parts of Offense or Hyper Offense, but Hyper Offense was not "banned".
Baton Pass is like a whole team that functions as One Pokemon, since they share the boosts and have switch initiative.
I would say a formulaic stall team is the next closest thing to Baton Pass, as they plan for each and every counter possible, but it really comes nowhere close to how BP functions. At least when you are playing against a well built Stall team with another well built team (HO, balance, stall, whatever) both players are on even ground.
Banning BP + Speed Boost, BP + Stored Power, BP + Ingrain, Magic Guard + Speed boost, or limiting the number of Baton Passers on a team all sound like decent options, it just comes to the point of how far do we want to nerf baton pass?
The first 4 options I listed would make it more difficult to play BP while making it somewhat easier to beat. The last option would dismantle Full Baton Pass completely.
I'm not sure if this is doable, but I believe we should just limit the number of pokemon using baton pass on a team to 4. With only 4 mons, the number of "checks" to this strategy greatly increases, but it can still function, and can still be quite dangerous. Scolipede can still easily rack up speed boosts and defense boosts, espeon can still bounce everything back, etc., but now you have a greater number of pokemon that can 2HKO the baton passers. You may no longer have Zapdos to tank Lando-i's hits or Mr. Mime to prevent perish song.
The reason I say this is because Espeon deserves to use baton pass. It's used for gaining momentum and most importantly escaping pursuit.
I think this is the most balanced way to nerf baton pass without nerfing the viability of the individual pokemon.
The reason I say this is because Espeon deserves to use baton pass. It's used for gaining momentum and most importantly escaping pursuit.
I think this is the most balanced way to nerf baton pass without nerfing the viability of the individual pokemon.
- Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame? I don't believe it is. It is simply another threat that we have to prepare for. These team require strong predictions to be used properly and in my opinion, if someone outplays someone with a baton pass team then they deserve to win. Banning baton pass would be like banning belly drum and aqua jet on azumarill in my opinion. It is simply a tactic used to win. I don't believe it to be completely broken.
- If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge? If anything, the combination of magic bounce and baton pass is really strong as there are very few reliable ways to phaze a magic bounce user. You would have to outspeed and ko these pokemon before they set up.
- Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable? Possibly but I think that there are better solutions than this.
- Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass? A blanket ban would certainly solve the problem but the real question would be if there actually is a problem or not. I think a suspect test may be necessary to find out more.
- Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course. I would be more likely to support a specific complex ban such as a magic bounce + baton pass ban or a baton pass clause where only one pokemon is allowed to use baton pass.
sigh, a meta is defined by what is currently being used by the majority of ppl. Example: Japanese VGC meta is different than America's VGC meta. If the the majority of users are using stall teams then that's the meta. It takes an anti-meta measure if one wants to take advantage of it (like playing HO for example). So when some of these people spamming other team archetypes call one strategy (the fact that is simple doesn't mean it's not a strat) "uncompetitive" just makes me lose faith in humanity. It's funny and hypocrite to constantly brag and claim to look for a "diverse, dynamic meta" yet few players are willing to adapt to different strats outside their bigoted ideas of what a team's label should be (zomg it's not balanced or stall, my voltturn is fucked).
"There are few counters but I don't want to run them because changing one move out of 24 moveslots that I got is overcentralizing".
Please.
PS this is why I've played Ubers since Gen IV. We deal with lots of threats and playstyles in Ubers and not a single time have complained about something being "ovecentralizing". And this is tier where you have Kyogre, Arceus and Shadow Tag, etc, etc.
"There are few counters but I don't want to run them because changing one move out of 24 moveslots that I got is overcentralizing".
Please.
PS this is why I've played Ubers since Gen IV. We deal with lots of threats and playstyles in Ubers and not a single time have complained about something being "ovecentralizing". And this is tier where you have Kyogre, Arceus and Shadow Tag, etc, etc.
- Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
- More of an annoyance really. So, not really.
- If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
- Magic Bounce + Baton Pass sounds really annoying, but I haven't faced it so I can't really tell you. I really hate Substitute Scolipedes, however.
- Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
- Espeon can be a dual screener, Absol can be a sweeper, Scolipede could be a Spikes lead. So no.
- Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
- No. It isn't a very OP move per se. Swagger was a broken move. I wouldn't say BP is a broken move.
- Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
- This is the way we can fix this. I haven't faced MB+BP but it seems very broken, so I can dig a ban. I'd love if Substitute + Speed Boost got a ban but I have a feeling it's me and not the idea.
I, on the other hand, believe there are optimum Stall and Rain teams. They are team archetypes with limited viable Pokemon, it only makes sense that they can be perfected. But that isn't to say they will always be the best - just in the current metagame.
Now, these teams aren't even close to broken, they're just very strong teams. And they can beaten by other good teams, or random things in general: I've seen Rain straight up lose to Ferrothorn + Chesnaught.
All teams have their weaknesses, but Baton Pass teams are much more match-up reliant and have a much smaller pool of viable means to deal with it.
Take that for what you will.
Now, these teams aren't even close to broken, they're just very strong teams. And they can beaten by other good teams, or random things in general: I've seen Rain straight up lose to Ferrothorn + Chesnaught.
All teams have their weaknesses, but Baton Pass teams are much more match-up reliant and have a much smaller pool of viable means to deal with it.
Take that for what you will.
First off, Haunter, you know this thread is going to go to hell eventually, so why bother?
Second, Baton Pass is a move that is blatantly obnoxious, in the same nature that Swagger is. Swagger's only use was to piss off everything it wanted to because Klefki is a massive fucking (BAN ME PLEASE). The same type of thing applies to Baton Pass, it's only purpose is to pass off stat boosts like a motherfucker, and this creates problems, because, while it is annoying as fuck, it isn't uncompetitive in the same way that Swagger is. Swagger turns the game into a coin flip, BP turns the game into a fuckfest of Smeargle and Espeon.
Third, I would like to raise a few points to argue for it's ban. Roar and Whirlwind all force switches, so one could say that this destroys the chain, and nullifies the team. However, these moves are limited to only a few standouts, being these mons that know roar;
And these ones with Whirlwind;
Not a great many stand out here, which overcentralizes.
Fourth, There is also a thing called trapping abilities, which I want to nail before it becomes a point of discussion. The trapping abilities being Shadow Tag and Arena Trap (correct me if there's more) which are limited to these mons (shadow tag);
And the mons for Arena Trap;
This again forces overcentralization. One could as well, bring up trapping moves, being Mean Look, another point I want to get out there before it becomes a thing, Mean Look is limited to these mons;
Again, Overcentralization is the issue here, with a select few being viable in OU, with even less that even wants to consider running it.
With these issues adressed, and knowing that the OU council is too lazy to complex ban things, I would say to Blanket ban Baton Pass as a whole.
Second, Baton Pass is a move that is blatantly obnoxious, in the same nature that Swagger is. Swagger's only use was to piss off everything it wanted to because Klefki is a massive fucking (BAN ME PLEASE). The same type of thing applies to Baton Pass, it's only purpose is to pass off stat boosts like a motherfucker, and this creates problems, because, while it is annoying as fuck, it isn't uncompetitive in the same way that Swagger is. Swagger turns the game into a coin flip, BP turns the game into a fuckfest of Smeargle and Espeon.
Third, I would like to raise a few points to argue for it's ban. Roar and Whirlwind all force switches, so one could say that this destroys the chain, and nullifies the team. However, these moves are limited to only a few standouts, being these mons that know roar;
Aerodactyl, Aerodactyl-Mega, Aggron, Aggron-Mega, Altaria, Amaura, Arcanine, Arceus, Arceus-Bug, Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Dragon, Arceus-Electric, Arceus-Fairy, Arceus-Fighting, Arceus-Fire, Arceus-Flying, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Grass, Arceus-Ground, Arceus-Ice, Arceus-Poison, Arceus-Psychic, Arceus-Rock, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Water, Archen, Archeops, Aron, Articuno, Aurorus, Avalugg, Axew, Bagon, Bastiodon, Beartic, Blastoise, Blastoise-Mega, Blaziken, Blaziken-Mega, Camerupt, Charizard, Charizard-Mega-X, Charizard-Mega-Y, Chesnaught, Chespin, Cobalion, Cranidos, Croconaw, Darmanitan, Darmanitan-Zen, Darumaka, Deino, Dialga, Donphan, Dragonite, Drapion, Druddigon, Eelektross, Electrike, Emboar, Empoleon, Entei, Exploud, Feraligatr, Flareon, Floatzel, Fraxure, Furfrou, Gabite, Garchomp, Garchomp-Mega, Gible, Giratina, Giratina-Origin, Glaceon, Gogoat, Golem, Granbull, Groudon, Growlithe, Gyarados, Gyarados-Mega, Haxorus, Heatran, Herdier, Hippopotas, Hippowdon, Ho-Oh, Houndoom, Houndoom-Mega, Houndour, Hydreigon, Infernape, Jolteon, Kangaskhan, Kangaskhan-Mega, Keldeo, Keldeo-Resolute, Krokorok, Krookodile, Kyogre, Lairon, Lapras, Latias, Latios, Leafeon, Lillipup, Linoone, Litleo, Loudred, Lucario, Lucario-Mega, Lugia, Luxio, Luxray, Mamoswine, Manectric, Manectric-Mega, Mew, Mightyena, Moltres, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Ninetales, Onix, Palkia, Pancham, Pangoro, Persian, Phanpy, Pignite, Piloswine, Poochyena, Purugly, Pyroar, Quilava, Quilladin, Raikou, Rampardos, Raticate, Rayquaza, Rhydon, Rhyhorn, Rhyperior, Riolu, Salamence, Sandile, Sceptile, Scrafty, Scraggy, Sealeo, Sharpedo, Shelgon, Shieldon, Shinx, Skarmory, Skiddo, Skuntank, Slaking, Smeargle, Snubbull, Stantler, Steelix, Stoutland, Stunky, Suicune, Swampert, Swinub, Teddiursa, Tepig, Terrakion, Torterra, Tropius, Typhlosion, Tyranitar, Tyranitar-Mega, Tyrantrum, Tyrunt, Ursaring, Vaporeon, Venusaur, Venusaur-Mega, Vigoroth, Virizion, Vulpix, Wailmer, Wailord, Walrein, Whismur, Xerneas, Zangoose, Zapdos, Zoroark, Zorua, Zweilous
And these ones with Whirlwind;
Aerodactyl, Aerodactyl-Mega, Beautifly, Braviary, Butterfree, Cranidos, Crobat, Drapion, Dustox, Fearow, Golbat, Grumpig, Hariyama, Hippopotas, Hippowdon, Ho-Oh, Honchkrow, Hoothoot, Lugia, Makuhita, Mandibuzz, Masquerain, Munchlax, Murkrow, Noctowl, Noibat, Noivern, Pidgeot, Pidgeotto, Pidgey, Rampardos, Rufflet, Shiftry, Sigilyph, Skarmory, Skorupi, Smeargle, Snorlax, Spearow, Spoink, Staraptor, Staravia, Starly, Swellow, Taillow, Tropius, Volcarona, Vullaby, Yanma, Yanmega, Zubat
Not a great many stand out here, which overcentralizes.
Fourth, There is also a thing called trapping abilities, which I want to nail before it becomes a point of discussion. The trapping abilities being Shadow Tag and Arena Trap (correct me if there's more) which are limited to these mons (shadow tag);
Gengar-Mega, Gothita, Gothitelle, Gothorita, Wobbuffet, Wynaut
And the mons for Arena Trap;
Diglett, Dugtrio, Trapinch
This again forces overcentralization. One could as well, bring up trapping moves, being Mean Look, another point I want to get out there before it becomes a thing, Mean Look is limited to these mons;
Absol, Absol-Mega, Bisharp, Cofagrigus, Crobat, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Duskull, Gallade, Gardevoir, Gardevoir-Mega, Gastly, Gengar, Gengar-Mega, Girafarig, Golbat, Gothita, Gothitelle, Gothorita, Grimer, Haunter, Honchkrow, Jynx, Kirlia, Krokorok, Krookodile, Mandibuzz, Meowstic, Misdreavus, Mismagius, Muk, Murkrow, Patrat, Pawniard, Ralts, Sableye, Sandile, Serperior, Servine, Smeargle, Smoochum, Snivy, Umbreon, Vullaby, Watchog, Yamask, Zubat
Again, Overcentralization is the issue here, with a select few being viable in OU, with even less that even wants to consider running it.
With these issues adressed, and knowing that the OU council is too lazy to complex ban things, I would say to Blanket ban Baton Pass as a whole.
The really problem is not espeon or magic bounce or substitute + speed boost, a speed boost scollipede with no baton pass(mega horn or another ofensive move set)is not broken, the really one problem is the combination of baton pass+speed boost because gives a unfair advantage of speed with no cost
That free speed boost gives a totally outspeed game, giving to your opponent no chance to attack with wallbreaker before set up iron defense/calm mind
Espeon+magic bounce is annoying ,but i don't think that is broken
Espeon ignores both whirlwind and roar due to magic bounce. Baton Pass also bypasses both trapping moves, such as mean look, and trapping abilities such as Shadow Tag. The OP clearly states that you should only post in this thread if you actually are knowledgable about BP and have experience with it on the ladder, which is something that some people obviously didn't read.
I feel baton pass could be manageable if there were a way to 1) limit baton pass users to 1 per team or 2) create a complex ban saying something along the lines of pokemon x and pokemon y can't be on the same team if one or both of them wield baton pass. I think baton pass itself doesnt need to be banned altogether, it just needs a way to be mannaged.
About the haze is obscure posts, Haze on tentacruel is viable and rather good on it from my experience, since alot of the pokes that tend to switch in tend to boost and can give u an extra turn of toxic damage. As a previous post said Smogon is here for balance, not to alter the game. B-Pass is rather irritating to go against and thats why I think so many people are pushing for a complex ban. I don't think its fair to say it takes no prediction and its just clueless clicking. Usually if one or two pokes die, the BP team loses the game. They also have to predict around Phazing,Perish Song,U-Turn,Taunt and such. The obscureness of Haze is also a very good tool for stopping B-Pass. Its not very hard to fit it somewhere on your team either. It takes one move to stop a would be irritating thing to go against. So why not just run it?
EDIT: If the majority of the community still seeks to ban BP(which is imo cheap but albeit fair playstule) I would recommend just limiting the amount of pokes who can have BP. As for example banning scolipede w/ b-pass can prevent quick passes from being achieved. Its a playstyle thats annoying, same could be said vs stall. I leave you with this. "balance , not alter"
EDIT: If the majority of the community still seeks to ban BP(which is imo cheap but albeit fair playstule) I would recommend just limiting the amount of pokes who can have BP. As for example banning scolipede w/ b-pass can prevent quick passes from being achieved. Its a playstyle thats annoying, same could be said vs stall. I leave you with this. "balance , not alter"
It's been there since Gen IV? seriously you crybabies trying to ban everything that slightly makes you uncomfortable.
GenIV Salamence/GenV Lando too "unpredictable"? Cute. Dialga had 6 viable sets in GenIV, wasn't once call "broken" nor banned (lol).
In my opinion, Baton Pass should not be banned completely, nor should there be a complex ban such as Magic Guard + Baton Pass or Speed Boost + Baton Pass. I just don't see the need to cripple Pokemon such as Espeon, Scolipede, etc that aren't broken on their own but become broken when put on a team dedicated to Baton Pass. Not to mention overly complex should be avoided as much as possible.
A much simpler way of nerfing Baton Pass, if it's decided that it needs to be nerfed, would be to limit the number of Pokemon which carry Baton Pass on one team. This allows Pokemon such as Espeon or Scolipede to be useful and support teammates but prevents the team from getting too crazy with boosts, while being less of a complex ban than some of the other suggestions. How many users of the move are allowed would have to be decided, and that depends on how much you want to nerf the playstyle.
A much simpler way of nerfing Baton Pass, if it's decided that it needs to be nerfed, would be to limit the number of Pokemon which carry Baton Pass on one team. This allows Pokemon such as Espeon or Scolipede to be useful and support teammates but prevents the team from getting too crazy with boosts, while being less of a complex ban than some of the other suggestions. How many users of the move are allowed would have to be decided, and that depends on how much you want to nerf the playstyle.
Ok, so I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I have a question...
Is there any particular reason why leading with a heavy hitter doesn't completely stop BP teams? I feel like leading with something like banded tflame or LO weavile would put a stop to BP teams well before they have a chance to accrue these boosts. As for the argument of "but once they have the boosts, they're unstoppable!!", the same can be said for a lot of setup sweepers. How many mons can stop a mega pinsir at +4, or even +2?
So the way for offensive and balanced teams to be prepared for BP teams is to have a hard hitting mon that can threaten scolopede while denting the +0 swap in and also have a sleep absorber to counter the smeargle counter lead. Having a sleep absorber might be slightly centralizing, but having a hard hitter? That's a given for any team that's not stall.
Countering it with stall is a bit trickier. Most of the tools of stall teams are blocked by subs. Most of the tools that aren't blocked by subs are stopped by ingrain. I don't have a good answer for this one, sorry.
TL;DR BP is prolly an auto win against stall, but I see no reason for offensive or balanced teams to lose to it. Unless being a full counter to a single playstyle is banworthy, I see no reason to ban it.
Also, to reiterate what many others have said, DO NOT BAN BP ALTOGETHER, PLEASE! I like my wish passes, thank you very much.
Is there any particular reason why leading with a heavy hitter doesn't completely stop BP teams? I feel like leading with something like banded tflame or LO weavile would put a stop to BP teams well before they have a chance to accrue these boosts. As for the argument of "but once they have the boosts, they're unstoppable!!", the same can be said for a lot of setup sweepers. How many mons can stop a mega pinsir at +4, or even +2?
So the way for offensive and balanced teams to be prepared for BP teams is to have a hard hitting mon that can threaten scolopede while denting the +0 swap in and also have a sleep absorber to counter the smeargle counter lead. Having a sleep absorber might be slightly centralizing, but having a hard hitter? That's a given for any team that's not stall.
Countering it with stall is a bit trickier. Most of the tools of stall teams are blocked by subs. Most of the tools that aren't blocked by subs are stopped by ingrain. I don't have a good answer for this one, sorry.
TL;DR BP is prolly an auto win against stall, but I see no reason for offensive or balanced teams to lose to it. Unless being a full counter to a single playstyle is banworthy, I see no reason to ban it.
Also, to reiterate what many others have said, DO NOT BAN BP ALTOGETHER, PLEASE! I like my wish passes, thank you very much.
But the thing is, Tentacruel was already deemed unviable for OU. The only OU viable Pokemon that learn haze are Crobat, Quagsire, Greninja, Vaporeon, Cogagigrius, Cofagrigus, Zygarde, Blastoise, Politoed, Gengar, Dragonite, and Chandelure. This may seem like a lot, but of the 12, only one doesn't have much better things to be doing. Crobat. Haze + Infiltrator Crobat is the only Pokemon that naturally beats Baton Pass teams, but even it still has to worry about stored power from Espeon. Sure, there are 12 OU Pokemon that can halt, not even always stop, Baton Pass. But forcing people to run something that's not useful against more balanced aspects of the metagame isn't a healthy thing. Sure, Haze Greninja beats Baton Pass. But, in the long run, what's more valuable, extra coverage, pivoting, Taunting, or beating dedicated Baton Pass teams? Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Gourgeist-XL, Cogagigrius, Sableye Ferrothorn, and Heatran all handled Mega Kangaskhan, but all wished for a better item, or not to even be on the team, when a Kangaskhan wasn't on the team. Making a metagame stretch beyond its limits is something that isn't healthy, and I personally think something should be done. It isn't damaging to the developing of the metagame, but it's still a strategy that either wins or loses at team preview.
WebBowser Leading with Talonflame or pinsir is one way to handle Pede. But, both are walled by Zapdos, who can switch in and KO them, or Baton Pass back to Pede.
Here to second the notion of a ban on the number of BP users on a team. Using Scoliped/Espy/Gliscor etc. to pass a few boosts or a sub is quite fair. Perhaps limit to 2 or 3 BP users per team in order to stop the full chain strategy which we've all encountered and been frustrated by high on the ladder.
If it's broken in ubers, I guess it could get banned from ubers too.
I think jpw hit the nail on the head. Mare clock brought up some good points too in that smogon has never outright banned an entire playstyle before, but has gotten rid of problem Pokemon instead. And except for rain's case, that has always been the better option.
I think jpw hit the nail on the head. Mare clock brought up some good points too in that smogon has never outright banned an entire playstyle before, but has gotten rid of problem Pokemon instead. And except for rain's case, that has always been the better option.
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