Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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Here are some reasonable options against baton pass as written up by my friend hugakitten:

Obviously I need to work at beating all the taunters (which a pretty amazing number of things can carry, and if it catches you by surprise from a Pokemon you weren't expecting to have it then it can stop you cold) and Talonflame, but there are a really surprising number of other top threats:
  • DD Mega Charizard X
  • SD Mega Mawhile
  • U-turn + taunt Whimsicott or volt switch + taunt Thundurus
  • Anything with belly drum. If it also has priority, it's not merely tough, it's an auto-loss. Meanie Azumarill :(.
  • Mandibuzz with any 2 of {whirlwind, taunt, knock-off (not foul play though)} makes for nasty guessing games where opponent can play many times and I must guess right on *all* of them
  • Breloom with bullet seed, SD, and spore
  • Shell smash Cloyster
  • Life orb Excadrill with a rock attack or SD
  • SD Mega Pinsir
  • Sableye
  • Staraptor
  • Volcarona
This was written a long time ago. But seems like a reasonable number of things to consider. Also she was not using smeargle.
 
You're biased for starts, so half of what you said should be ignored. If a pokemon is bad for the meta game, we ban it. With a decent number of exceptions where it's not the pokemon but a move (swagger) or item (soul dew) or something like that, but if we decide Scolipede is the deciding factor in pushing Baton Pass over the edge, then we should ban it.

I admitted I was biased towards avoiding on BANNING a pokemon I like. I also use him on a decent number of teams I have. Completely banning him would be tragic to a few teams, I can't get a replacement like him. Don't tell me to shut up.

We NEVER make a complex ban to preserve a pokemon's other sets.

There is a first time for everything. Espeon has her little paws far too deep into the OU department to warrant a blanket ban "just because we can't do a complex ban". I'm against doing anything at all but even I'm trying to find a solution to the other side here.
I'll remind you how unpopular gen 5, and that Swift Swim + Drizzle in particular, was. I personally desperately wish I had come out of my lurking status much sooner just to vote against that (Kingdra's one of my favorites, and even I wish we'd just banned it instead of that mess that occurred).

I know, I was there, I voted towards that complex ban because I was tired of seeing only those teams of the same 6 or 7 pokemon. This is a VERY similar issue.


If the entire playing style (I realize people dislike calling it that, but what else can I do?) is deemed the problem, then the ban you brought up would work, but I don't want to just kill something that can be balanced and incorporated into the metagame.

How is giving a limit/cap to something not viable towards what we're talking about? I mentioned that a limit would be imposed on either the number of pokemon capable of having Baton Pass on the team, OR adding a limit to the number of times one could do it before the Buffs stop being added.

By banning Espeon (another one of my personal favorites), we make well constructed teams able to naturally beat Baton Pass by outplaying it,

By banning a rather fragile pokemon we then can beat the entire team? Espeon is as thick as Cardboard, just about any servicable dark-type could kill it. Magic Bounce can only do so much. I'm frankly not certain what else to say about this.

by banning Scolipede, Baton Pass would be open to being out sped and taken down,

And I understand where you are coming from on this, I see it. I do not agree with it because the damage has already been done when you have a pokemon with 6 X boosts to it's defenses and offensive power like crazy. Banning an entire pokemon for simply getting Speed Boost isn't a good idea.

by doing whatever else you want, you can make Baton Pass a still, sort of viable strategy, just not so cookie cutter and hard to beat without set counters.

At this point Baton Pass is completely dead. The one thing Baton Pass had going for as a strategy (since Gen 4) was Speed Boost, mainly on Ninjask and it was rarer than a solar eclipse, but the idea behind baton pass was to make the next pokemon behind it good either with a speed boost or even a swords dance or two. By killing Scolipede or Espeon, you kill the strategy and whatever else they do just because of what they MIGHT do. Forever.

Instead of suggesting to make unnecessarily complex bans to keep your favorite pokemon around, I'd rather hear why that pokemon isn't the problem, and why another pokemon is.
How is a "Baton Pass Clause" overly complex? Look at all the other clauses in place, they are there to prevent something cheap from coming up. Someone found a damn good synergy and now we're punishing him for it.

I haven't suggested any other pokemon are the problem or even suggested any pokemon is a problem. I personally vote do nothing. But if we are GOING to do something, I'm trying to prevent as much collateral damage from occurring as possible. A clause is what is needed. We've banned 4 pokemon for being broken this generation alone, banning things because of what they MIGHT do is exactly why Blaziken with Blaze cannot be used either. This is far too complex of an issue to just "Fire and forget". This is what happened in the 5th generation all over again.
 
Could people please stop bringing up Mr. Mime's ability to block phasing as a possible needed ban. Smeargle runs ingrain people for a reason and Espeon also has magic bounce. Mr. Mime brings a lot to the table with encore calm mind etc. But soundproof is just an option, it's not something that's mandatory on a BP team and a lot of them don't even run him because of the other options available.
 
I actually don't think, restricting the number of baton pass in a team is so complex. In fact, it would be the least "complex" of a not targeted to a single Pokémon/move ban. It brings to the mind the restricted cards in many TGC-games, of which a player may carry only one or two; it's not exactly unheard of in competitive games.

I'm seriously glad you brought this up, it's one of the best supporting statements for a restrictive clause IMO. I played Yugioh competitively when I was younger and the Forbidden/Limited lists are extremely simple to understand. The Limited/Semi-Limited lists (which limited cards to 1 or 2 copies per deck, respectively) in particular brought balance to cards that would be stupidly useful or just flat out rape and pillage if you could carry three of them in your deck. Limiting the number of copies makes your choices much more crucial in a match as you can't just bring out, say, Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning (whose cost to bring out was pretty low for how good of a card it is) willy-nilly. You had to play it at the right time or else whoops, you may have just lost one of your best cards for no good reason.

Same goes for BP: by limiting the number of BP users, you bring balance because only 3 users can't cover every possible thing, so they can't close up all of their possible holes. You also have to predict a lot better than you would with a full BP team as limited chains are not able to adapt to situations quite as well as full teams can. You have to think of the strongest core that sacrifices the least, and with only 3 mons to do it with, that's pretty tough. At the same time, you're not really killing the playstyle by restricting to 3 since it can still be pretty powerful once it sets up the proper boosts, but you are definitely bringing more balance to it by restricting the choices you make in teambuilding.
 
If the entire playing style (I realize people dislike calling it that, but what else can I do?) is deemed the problem, then the ban you brought up would work, but I don't want to just kill something that can be balanced and incorporated into the metagame. By banning Espeon (another one of my personal favorites), we make well constructed teams able to naturally beat Baton Pass by outplaying it, by banning Scolipede, Baton Pass would be open to being out sped and taken down, by doing whatever else you want, you can make Baton Pass a still, sort of viable strategy, just not so cookie cutter and hard to beat without set counters.

I don't see banning the individual components of baton pass teams as a good way to nerf the strategy at all. As I have said before, baton passers are many, and banning one prominently featuring in BP teams Pokémon would only mean, something else will come in to fill the vacuum to adapt, and quite quickly. Say if Scolipede and Espeon were banned, then baton pass teams will simply use Ninjask, M-Absol and Ingrain Smeargle as easy surrogates. Now Ninjask hasn't the ability to boost defence along speed and so is worse, and M-Absol hasn't Stored Power, but they offer similar advantages; the only possible change being, that BP shifts to be more immediately offensive (and M-Absol already has decent offensive stats from the start). They wouldn't fix the fundamental problems of gaining momentum effortlessly, boosting to unstoppable levels in the space of turns you can count on the fingers, still gaining deterministic wins on matchup alone, etc. We've already tried to progressively nerf a playstyle by banning its individual components, and as any survivor of BW OU knows, that... really didn't work out so well.
 
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You're biased for starts, so half of what you said should be ignored. If a pokemon is bad for the meta game, we ban it. With a decent number of exceptions where it's not the pokemon but a move (swagger) or item (soul dew) or something like that, but if we decide Scolipede is the deciding factor in pushing Baton Pass over the edge, then we should ban it.

My biggest problem with this is that we'd be banning a Pokemon that is not ban-worthy. Scolipede is not even remotely overpowered. Same with Espeon.

Banning either of Espeon or Scolipede, or the move Baton Pass, just seems really crude and inelegant to me. Yeah, it's simple, it'd solve the problem, but it's a complete disregard for the legitimate usage that Espeon, Scolipede and Baton pass have on many other teams.

We NEVER make a complex ban to preserve a pokemon's other sets.

Except Scolipede's best and most effective set is an offensive one, in my and many other's opinion. Pokemon are banned based on their best set. Iron Defense / Protect / Substitute / Baton Pass @ Mental Herb is a shitty set anywhere except a BP team, and it's only "overpowered" when used in conjunction with five other particular Pokemon.

I'll remind you how unpopular gen 5, and that Swift Swim + Drizzle in particular, was. I personally desperately wish I had come out of my lurking status much sooner just to vote against that (Kingdra's one of my favorites, and even I wish we'd just banned it instead of that mess that occurred).

It doesn't matter if it was unpopular. DrizzleSwim ban showed that a complex ban is a possibility if it aims to avoid collateral damage.

If you've not read it (not saying you haven't,) do read Aldaron's Proposal. As opposed to a simple ban of Drizzle or Swift Swim, the combination was specifically banned because it didn't reduce the viability of any of the Swift Swim Pokemon (as compared to before Drizzle was given to Politoed) and it avoided the banning of multiple Pokemon that were not overpowered outside of Drizzle teams.

I don't see why we can't do that with Baton Pass teams. Scolipede, Espeon, and the move Baton Pass are not broken, except when used on a Baton Pass team (arguably); much like how Kingdra and friends were not broken when used anywhere other than a Drizzle team.

If the entire playing style (I realize people dislike calling it that, but what else can I do?) is deemed the problem, then the ban you brought up would work, but I don't want to just kill something that can be balanced and incorporated into the metagame. By banning Espeon (another one of my personal favorites), we make well constructed teams able to naturally beat Baton Pass by outplaying it, by banning Scolipede, Baton Pass would be open to being out sped and taken down, by doing whatever else you want, you can make Baton Pass a still, sort of viable strategy, just not so cookie cutter and hard to beat without set counters. Instead of suggesting to make unnecessarily complex bans to keep your favorite pokemon around, I'd rather hear why that pokemon isn't the problem, and why another pokemon is.

I also don't want to get rid of BP teams. As much as people hate them, we can't ban stuff just because we don't like or don't think it's "legitimate."

But between a simple ban of a non-broken pokemon, and a complex ban that aims to reduce collateral damage and nerf only Baton Pass teams, what good reason is there to not go for the latter?
 
There is a first time for everything. Espeon has her little paws far too deep into the OU department to warrant a blanket ban "just because we can't do a complex ban". I'm against doing anything at all but even I'm trying to find a solution to the other side here.
Really? As far as I can tell, most decent players have dubbed Espeon pretty worthless outside of Baton Pass. It's its only set on the analysis, and when I tested it, it failed pretty miserably at blocking hazards and was outclassed otherwise by Deoxys, so there's almost no collateral damage to complain about from banning Espeon.

How is giving a limit/cap to something not viable towards what we're talking about? I mentioned that a limit would be imposed on either the number of pokemon capable of having Baton Pass on the team, OR adding a limit to the number of times one could do it before the Buffs stop being added.
It is, I just feel like that'd be like limiting the number of volt turn mons on a team because Genesect is broken. Slightly different issue, so I'll listen to this idea, but it's not my first choice.

And I understand where you are coming from on this, I see it. I do not agree with it because the damage has already been done when you have a pokemon with 6 X boosts to it's defenses and offensive power like crazy. Banning an entire pokemon for simply getting Speed Boost isn't a good idea.
Are you purposefully ignoring Blaziken, or am I missing something?

At this point Baton Pass is completely dead. The one thing Baton Pass had going for as a strategy (since Gen 4) was Speed Boost, mainly on Ninjask and it was rarer than a solar eclipse, but the idea behind baton pass was to make the next pokemon behind it good either with a speed boost or even a swords dance or two. By killing Scolipede or Espeon, you kill the strategy and whatever else they do just because of what they MIGHT do. Forever.
Oh, they've already done it, have you tested BP? From Team Preview on, your opponent will not stop cussing you out for using a cheap strategy (assuming you win), because other people have already used it to ladder. Baton Pass doesn't have to die, banning Scolipede for instance would require somebody to have genuine skill to use Baton Pass, and because of that, it'd fall into usage levels comparable to those of Trick Room, and probably get about as much hate.

I haven't suggested any other pokemon are the problem or even suggested any pokemon is a problem. I personally vote do nothing. But if we are GOING to do something, I'm trying to prevent as much collateral damage from occurring as possible. A clause is what is needed. We've banned 4 pokemon for being broken this generation alone, banning things because of what they MIGHT do is exactly why Blaziken with Blaze cannot be used either. This is far too complex of an issue to just "Fire and forget". This is what happened in the 5th generation all over again.
It's complex because of the nature of "you can still use it, just not in this specific situation," and I personally dislike these situations because I feel they're too "picky/choosey." Something's either ban worthy, or it isn't.

Also, why is it a big deal that we've already banned 4 pokemon for being broken? They were broken, so we banned them. Hurray? Most people who know what they're talking about agree that the meta's better without them.

And gen 5 all over again is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. What happened there is we (I'm counting myself as part of Smogon then, as even though I didn't have an account, I saw what was happening and actively decided to not participate, so I have to share blame) tried too hard to not be ban happy, so things got out of hand. Now, I vote we just cut off the infected branches and be done with them before they kill the tree. Baton Pass won't be a problem, but they could leave an impact on the meta that will never be permanently removed
 
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Here are some reasonable options against baton pass as written up by my friend hugakitten:

Obviously I need to work at beating all the taunters (which a pretty amazing number of things can carry, and if it catches you by surprise from a Pokemon you weren't expecting to have it then it can stop you cold) and Talonflame, but there are a really surprising number of other top threats:
  • DD Mega Charizard X
  • SD Mega Mawhile
  • U-turn + taunt Whimsicott or volt switch + taunt Thundurus
  • Anything with belly drum. If it also has priority, it's not merely tough, it's an auto-loss. Meanie Azumarill :(.
  • Mandibuzz with any 2 of {whirlwind, taunt, knock-off (not foul play though)} makes for nasty guessing games where opponent can play many times and I must guess right on *all* of them
  • Breloom with bullet seed, SD, and spore
  • Shell smash Cloyster
  • Life orb Excadrill with a rock attack or SD
  • SD Mega Pinsir
  • Sableye
  • Staraptor
  • Volcarona
This was written a long time ago. But seems like a reasonable number of things to consider. Also she was not using smeargle.
Got a list for UU? This isn't just something restricted to OU, some as far as NU can only make use of themselves with baton pass teams and I see a couple in UU.
 
Woops, sorry Sergeant Spooky , missed you.

My thoughts are that Gengarite proves that things can be banned not for being outright broken, but making other things broken through their support. This is exactly what Scolipede does for baton pass, so banning Scolipede for his bp set, though not his best stand-alone set, shouldn't be a big deal.

I'm pretty sure I read Aldaron's proposal, but the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban failed to keep the 5th gen from becoming universally known as "the rain gen" or "weather war," because, as far as I can tell, it didn't ban all centralizing aspects of the meta. Either we surgically remove every infected cell, or we just cut off the branch. I'm ok with either, but I don't think we are smart enough, or have enough time, to make a healthy meta game with such a conservative approach, so I'm whole heartedly in favor of avoiding complex bans unless completely necessary (fully acknowledging how subjective that is).
 
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I am a fan of Baton Pass. I do not insist on keep Baton Pass in the game, and I agree with some of the things being said in this forum against Baton Pass. But I would like to respectfully present a case for Baton Pass. I ask that you read all the way to the end before you reply to my opinions, because I might have addressed your concerns somewhere down the line. Thanks in advance!

1

I will liken the Baton Pass team to a Belly Drumming Azumarill. These two things are extremely similar: we call them “niche” strategies. Given the unprepared opponent or the favorable situation, a Belly Drumming Azumarill could blast through an entire team with a combination of Belly Drum, Play Rough and Aqua Jet. Is this Azumarill formulaic? Yes. Are there variations? Somewhat. Does every team need to prepare for it? Yes. Or at least, they did.

I played XY OU when XY was just released. Back then, the Swords Dancing Talonflame, the Belly Drumming Azumarill, the Swords Dancing Aegislash seemed so good that many thought they should be banned to Ubers. So what happened?

Venusaur happened. Rotom Wash happened. Mandibuzz happened. The Pokemon community has responded with very, very specific answers to these niche strategies. Nowadays, I don’t use Azumarill anymore due to the absolutely enormous number of counters. I don’t use Baton Pass as much for the very same reason: there are far too many effective counters on the playing ground that I have to tread very, very carefully.

You might argue that Baton Pass requires really specific counters which a person would not include on their team were it not for the existence of Baton Pass. You might say that counters to Azumarill such as Venusaur are acceptable because they serve other purposes, too, such as checking Rotom Wash. However, the same is really true for any checks to Baton Pass. A Taunting Thundurus is extremely useful even when one isn’t dealing with a Baton Pass team. A Dragon Dancing Dragonite or a Quiver Dancing Volcarona can be deadly against any team. Just like we’ve made room for Venusaur and for Rotom Wash on our teams, we can make room for Pokemon that can answer to Baton Pass as well as function in other situations.

If the usage of Thundurus continues to rise like it has been doing ever since Denis (dEnIsSsS) made it to the top of the OU ladder, then we shall see a drop in the number of Baton Pass teams, just like the drop in the number of Azumarills, Talonflames and Aegislashes in OU.

2

Baton Pass is by no means perfect. There will always be ways to destroy a Baton Pass team. It may seem difficult now, but Thundurus Incarnate is almost an ideal check, just like how Venusaur perfectly checks Azumarill. To answer to Thundurus Incarnate, many Baton Pass user are switching to strategies that allow offense and boosting at the same time, so that Taunt will not shut down a team. Would this make a Baton Pass team invincible? No. In the process of making room for offense, we’ve dramatically slowed down our rate of boosting, making our teams much more vulnerable. I can liken this to the Tyranitar with Fire Blast in an effort to deal with Ferrothorn. Have we made Tyranitar invincible? Of course not. We’ve surely lost something the process – a Pursuit, a Superpower, a Stealth Rock.

Furthermore, the argument that Baton Pass makes the game unfair is self-defeating. If Baton Pass were a perfect strategy, then why doesn't everyone use it? There was a time when everyone believed that the Belly Drumming, Aqua Jetting Azumarill was almost foolproof – how wrong they were. Azumarill takes skill to use well nowadays – we have to clear the playing field of potential counters. The same goes for Talonflame and Life Orb Landorus. The truth is, Baton Pass does require skill and creativity to execute well. I think we have to acknowledge that not everyone uses Baton Pass because it actually isn’t easy to pull off. Too often do we get a Critical Hit in our face. Too often does Noivern or Pinsir come along to destroy our Scolipedes. We can switch to leading with Agility Zapdos, we can incorporate Substitute into our strategy, but with every choice there is an opportunity cost – we have forgone something else. And just like building any other team, we have to think about things like – have we covered the special attacker? Have we prepared for the priority Bullet Punch? The reality is that no team can prepare for absolutely everything.

Admittedly, we do go through a somewhat formulaic approach. Are they faster? Yes: Protect. No: Substitute. Am I weak to that type? Yes: stay in. No: switch out. However, I would like to point out that all of Pokemon is somewhat formulaic. Azumarill? Better send out Venusaur.

Sure, there might the occasional, “I predict he is going to switch so I’m going to switch to something that checks what he is going to switch into,” but please remember that virtually the same thinking applies to Baton Pass teams. Mr. Mime hates the Bullet Punch from Scizor, even after a few defense boosts. There are checks and counters we have to be wary of. We need to be cautious of our opponent's team and their next move. We have to be prepared for as many eventualities as we can.

3

My third argument is a concession. I am not against banning Baton Pass. I am, however, fully against banning particular components of Baton Pass, such as banning the combination of Magic Bounce Espeon and Speed Boost Scolipede, or the move Stored Power.

This is not in the spirit of Pokemon. That would be like saying, let’s ban Belly Drum on all Azumarills. Let’s ban Gale Wings on all Talonflames. Let’s ban Quick Attack on all Pinsirs.

What we can do, however, is ban certain gamebreaking strategies as a whole. We have banned Blaziken to Ubers because it was too strong for OU. We haven’t banned Flare Blitz and High Jump Kick. If you think about it, Blaziken would probably have stayed in OU if we’d just banned those two moves – we would have crippled the speedy chicken. But is handicapping Pokemon in this fashion the way we want to play this game? I certainly don't think so. Would you not agree that removing a certain component of the Baton Pass is like saying, “we don’t like you because you’re too strong, so we’re going to manipulate you so that you can’t harm us anymore. We're gonna bring you down to our level. Of course, feel free to still try Baton Passing, but I’m gonna sit here and laugh at your face.”

If it is indeed deemed “gamebreakingly strong”, please carpet ban the entire Baton Pass strategy (by, for example, banning teams with more than three Baton Pass users) instead of banning particular components.

That concludes my rant. I personally don't think Baton Pass is perfect enough or cheap enough to deserve a ban – it's only a niche strategy. Thank you for reading!
 
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Woops, sorry Sergeant Spooky , missed you.

My thoughts are that Gengarite proves that things can be banned not for being outright broken, but making other things broken through their support. This is exactly what Scolipede does for baton pass, so banning Scolipede for his bp set, though not his best stand-alone set, shouldn't be a big deal.
\.

epic-jackie-chan-template.png


But you've just yelled at me that flat out banning Scolipede is what you intend but here you are banning just his Baton Pass set which would be a VERY complex ban.

I'm completely confused as to what you want now.

Completely stamping out a pokemon because of one set it can do is the most trivial, not to mention completely over the line thing we can do. A complex ban is necessary here.

I don't want Scolipede or Espeon banned because of their actual use in the meta-game being affected.

You don't want a complex ban because you don't like complex bans despite Drizzle + Swift Swim ban existing.

Whose to say we can't do that? Sleep Clause is a thing, Baton Pass Clause could be another thing. I say Keep Scolipede and Espeon untouched, but then add the caps I had mentioned earlier.
 
Adapt : to change (something) so that it functions better or is better suited for a purpose

No team is perfect, meaning they will always lose against something.
Are we just trying to defend offensive teams? Are we really looking at this in a non-biased perspective?
That's what you have to realize while making a team and the risk you will take by using said team (I'm going to lose to _____). For a lot of people, that is Baton Pass because those intelligent players realize that players have poorly built teams that cannot handle and utilize it.
Is that a problem? To some people, it apparently is.
Every type of team generally loses to another different type because the situation will be favored in one's side more-so than the other - That is the game we play
 
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rse-baton-pass.86066/page-5

Baton Pass was extremely threatening in Gen 3, enough that it had an article written about it. From what I gathered from the link above, a ban on Ingrain + Baton Pass Smeargle was enough to make Baton Pass counterable without requiring teams to go out of their way to do so.

It's not Gen 3 anymore, though. Here's what's changed for Baton Pass:
Focus Sash (for Smeargle)
Stored Power
New Passers (Combusken, Mew, Gliscor, Sylveon, Scolipede)
Old Passers with New Moves (Gorebyss, Huntail, Venomoth)
Magic Bouncers (Espeon, Mega Absol)
Otherwise Improved Old Passers (Medicham, Mawile, Scizor)
Explosion Nerf
Metagame Shifts (away from phazing, Belly Drumming, Focus Punching, etc.)
Heart Swap (isn't even blocked by Substitute)
Clear Smog
Topsy-Turvy
Red Card
Unaware (Quagsire, Clefable)
Boost-Ignoring Moves (Sacred Sword, Frost Breath, Storm Throw)
Better Perish Song Users (Azumarill, Politoed)
Metagame Shifts (toward TrickScarf, multi-hit moves, etc.)
Power Creep (smash things before they set up too much)
I'm pretty sure that banning Baton Pass + Magic Bounce would take care of most of the issues that we're having now, opening chains up to Taunt, Roar, and Whirlwind, among other things. That would reduce Baton Pass teams to a bunch of subpar Pokemon using a bunch of subpar sets, even though those sets work pretty well together, and the powerful Pokemon of Gen 6 OU would be able to demolish them. If slower teams are still unable to handle that, then banning Baton Pass + Magic Bounce + Ingrain would definitely do the trick.

As to whether or not it's necessary to ban...I'm inclined to say, "No, applying offensive pressure from the start of the match is enough," but I'm not entirely sure.
 
Adapt : to change (something) so that it functions better or is better suited for a purpose

No team is perfect, meaning they will always lose against something.
Are we just trying to defend offensive teams? Are we really looking at this in a non-biased perspective?
That's what you have to realize while making a team and the risk you will take by using said team (I'm going to lose to _____). For a lot of people, that is Baton Pass because those intelligent players realize that players have poorly built teams that cannot handle and utilize it.
Is that a problem? To some people, it apparently is.
Every type of team generally loses to another different type because the situation will be favored in one side's more-so than the other

81749-Jesse-Pinkman-WHAT-gif-pink-WA-a0go.gif


(Real talk, I'm done with reaction gifs/images after this)

Baton Pass I don't want them to do anything but but please be constructive other than saying people suck at stopping this. My strategy towards stopping this has been Mega-Aggron. Dragontail away the problem and Mr. mime would HATE to come in on an iron head.

Care to offer any other insight? A possible way to nerf this combination?
 
epic-jackie-chan-template.png


But you've just yelled at me that flat out banning Scolipede is what you intend but here you are banning just his Baton Pass set which would be a VERY complex ban.

I'm completely confused as to what you want now.

Completely stamping out a pokemon because of one set it can do is the most trivial, not to mention completely over the line thing we can do. A complex ban is necessary here.

I don't want Scolipede or Espeon banned because of their actual use in the meta-game being affected.

You don't want a complex ban because you don't like complex bans despite Drizzle + Swift Swim ban existing.

Whose to say we can't do that? Sleep Clause is a thing, Baton Pass Clause could be another thing. I say Keep Scolipede and Espeon untouched, but then add the caps I had mentioned earlier.
Ban Scolipede FOR his Baton Pass set, not Ban Scolipede's Baton Pass set. We've always banned things for their best set, and baton pass teams would say that the support BP Scolipede gives makes that his best set.

LOL, that's like saying "[in BW] they realized stall can't handle HO", let's call these people trolls for abusing HO teams, how dared they
I call them trolls because BP has already been declared to require minimal skill to achieve success with. Since a lot (not all, but would you be willing to eat a brownie if you knew there's a 10% chance it's got crap cooked in?) of the known abusers aren't known for being high ranked without this strategy, I don't care if I insult them.
 
Seriously though, nobody's said anything about Baton Pass being everywhere.
quite a few people have said this, actually.

here's a notable example:
If you can't elevate your ranking above ~1750 ELO, I sincerely doubt you have anywhere near enough experience with BP to make an educated statement about it. If you think it's rare, then you're definitely not playing at that level. BP is common and indeed a legitimate threat.
emphasis mine
 
quite a few people have said this, actually.

here's a notable example:
emphasis mine
all right, I might have suggested it was significantly less common than it is, but it's hardly the norm. Most players still understand the unspoken rule forbidding strategies like this, and I'd still argue that calling it "common" gives it a little too much credit. Any suggestion I made that suggests it's not "legitimate" though was completely unintentional
 
Ban Scolipede FOR his Baton Pass set, not Ban Scolipede's Baton Pass set. We've always banned things for their best set, and baton pass teams would say that the support BP Scolipede gives makes that his best set.

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But that right there. The key words "Baton Pass Teams" right there is where Scolipede doesn't need to be banned. His REAL power towards the team is ONLY ON a baton pass team. When not on a baton pass team, he's giving speed and defensive buffs to another pokemon or being a late-game sweeper. Hardly threatening and just a niche pokemon.

You see, Scolipede is not the problem. It's the team. Killing Scolipede to end the team is the worst thing to do. We're removing an entire limb when removing hardly a finger is all we have to do. (I'm just going to keep making up these kind of analogies if I have to try)
 
There are plenty of checks to BP, just like when any strategy is developed. This can even include moves on the recipient of BP, e.g. Yawn, Red Card etc. The constant development of strategies shifts the game as much as new pokemon/tiering does.
 
But that right there. The key words "Baton Pass Teams" right there is where Scolipede doesn't need to be banned. His REAL power towards the team is ONLY ON a baton pass team. When not on a baton pass team, he's giving speed and defensive buffs to another pokemon or being a late-game sweeper. Hardly threatening and just a niche pokemon.

You see, Scolipede is not the problem. It's the team. Killing Scolipede to end the team is the worst thing to do. We're removing an entire limb when removing hardly a finger is all we have to do. (I'm just going to keep making up these kind of analogies if I have to try)
And Mega Gengar wasn't really a problem unless they had a win condition to take advantage of the hole in your team. The support Scolipede gives makes a team broken, so I think banning it should be a realistic option.

Just to be clear, it's only 1 option. Here's what we could do, in order of what my preference;

Ban Scolipede, because automatic ultra fast baton passes are what I think are the biggest problem, and without them only skilled players could abuse this strategy

Ban Espeon, because immunity to taunt and phazing (besides Dragon Tail, but that's why you have Mr. Mime) is too much

Limit the # of BP users per team, because I get that people really do consider the playing style to be bad for the meta in general

Do nothing, because all other options I can think of would be a waste of time for being either too much, too little, or too complex.

I suppose it's a good thing I'm not in charge though.

And now, another new poster that didn't read the thread thoroughly,
There are plenty of checks to BP, just like when any strategy is developed. This can even include moves on the recipient of BP, e.g. Yawn, Red Card etc. The constant development of strategies shifts the game as much as new pokemon/tiering does.
Read the first 10ish pages. They're filthy with obscure checks and round about counters, but they also have loads of people explaining why that's not enough to sit back and let Baton Pass stay uninhibited.
 
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Not really, they can easily adapt to handle Unaware users. For example, Mr. Mime learns Energy Ball, which easily 2HKOes Quagsire (or OHKOes with a bit of investment). Clefable can be handled quite nicely by Scizor. Sure, banning Stored Power would nerf BP a bit and force it to adapt a bit, but it wouldn't nerf the most broken part of it, which is the incredible ease BP has setting up defensive boosts. BP is, by nature, an all or nothing team archetype due to how matchup reliant it is. There is no real way to nerf BP to a point where it is viable but not broken. Your team either beats BP or it doesn't (barring hax). This kind of matchup dependancy can ruin entire metagames (cough cough, BW OU) and is never a good thing. Full BP adds nothing to the tier except a cheap, easy, and relatively skill-less way to win without even having any metagame knowledge. It's kind of obvious that this is not healthy for the meta and needs to go.

The very fact you're mentioning Energy Ball Mr.Mime of all things is proof enough that a Stored Power ban would effectively nerf BP teams.
For the record every single pomemon in a BP team gets hit hard by the 4MSS and Mr.Mime is no exception. What move are you going to drop for that? Obviously you can't drop Baton Pass, so it's between Encore, Substitute and Calm Mind. The former is one the main reason besides Soundproof Mr.Mime is even used in BP teams and Sub and CM are both extremely important.

Also, Scizor has no place in BP teams in this metagame, as it has an undesireable fire weakness and it's redundant with Scolipede, who passes the same boosts.
 
And Mega Gengar wasn't really a problem unless they had a win condition to take advantage of the hole in your team. The support Scolipede gives makes a team broken, so I think banning it should be a realistic option.

Just to be clear, it's only 1 option. Here's what we could do, in order of what my preference;

Ban Scolipede, because automatic ultra fast baton passes are what I think are the biggest problem, and without them only skilled players could abuse this strategy

Ban Espeon, because immunity to taunt and phazing (besides Dragon Tail, but that's why you have Mr. Mime) is too much

Limit the # of BP users per team, because I get that people really do consider the playing style to be bad for the meta in general

Do nothing, because all other options I can think of would be a waste of time for being either too much, too little, or too complex.

I suppose it's a good thing I'm not in charge though.

And now, another new poster that didn't read the thread thoroughly,

Read the first 10ish pages. They're filthy with obscure checks and round about counters, but they also have loads of people explaining why that's not enough to sit back and let Baton Pass stay uninhibited.

What about banning Magic Bounce+Speed Boost? Banning two abilities together even has a precedent in the drizzle+swift swim ban. Banning Magic Guard and Speed Boost on the same team means full BP teams would have to either have to rely on ingrain Smeargle to prevent phazing and would lose to taunt (which isn't that common of a move), or mannually boost speed using a mon like Zapdos, which makes chains much harder to start. Both of these changes don't destroy BP, but make it a lot harder to do and make you actually have to think when starting a chain.

Edit: Magic Bounce, not Magic Guard.
 
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What about banning both Magic Guard+Speed Boost? Banning two abilities together even has a precedent in the drizzle+swift swim ban. Banning Magic Guard and Speed Boost on the same team means full BP teams would have to either have to rely on ingrain Smeargle to prevent phazing and would lose to taunt (which isn't that common of a move), or mannually boost speed using a mon like Zapdos, which makes chains much harder to start. Both of these changes don't destroy BP, but make it a lot harder to do and make you actually have to think when starting a chain.
You could still make a legitimate non-baton pass team with both these moves abilities though
 
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