While humurous, I don't really see any of these as valid tests. Of course one pokemon alone isn't going to stop an entire team. And you know, Musharna has baton pass too. And I haven't gotten an opportunity to test this myself, but I believe the effects of Imprison can be baton passed. I cannot say for certain, though.
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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It may be a gimmick and it may not have been used a lot before this thread but, as someone mention before in this thread, if Kyogre or another Ubers threat was only used 1% of the time but it was still overpowered as fuck, we should ban it. Denis peaked at #1 of the OU ladder using BP so it may be a gimmick but it is a gimmick that can beat the rest of the meta. And now with the introduction of this thread there are so many BP chains so it now has basically transformed into the meta.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-1739
^SPL
costa may have lost, but it's only because of hax. He would have wiped the floor with his opponent if not for a double paralysis.
Regardless, usage has never been a good argument in these suspect tests. It's not used as much as other playstyles because of the gentleman's agreement I mentioned in my post. You don't use it because it's cheap. It's known to be broken but Smogon has never actually done andything about it because before Scolipede/Sylveon/Magic Bounce there were more ways to beat it than Haze Gengar. And also, iirc, 3 out of the top 5 ladder players were using Baton Pass only a few weeks ago, so you can't say that it doesn't exist when top ladder players are battling it constantly.
These replays do not add any credibility to the pro-ban side. First of all, many just involve a single Pokemon team, which is obviously not a real game scenario. Having teammates to take attacks might help the other player beat the BP team. The Gyarados for some reason does not go Mega right away, and it sets up a sub even though Hyper Voice is the only attack which can hurt it. The Gyarados could have roared Mime away and started DDing or attacking. The Thundurus for some reason uses T-Wave even though it still outspeeds +1 Sylveon. It would have won if it kept spamming T-bolt. All your replays show is that the opponent does not know how to play against BP.
Where did this noncompetitive/ lack of skill notation come from?
You DO know that it still takes major prediction and smart thinking in order to prevent the chain from dying. Many hyper offense teams (especially ones with Bisharp) can stop BP teams simply by predicting Smeargle's Spore or Dark Void, and proceed to throw powerful attacks at the BP team or setting up SDs, CMs, or etc. , causing either substantial damage, OR killing the player's shot of setting up boosts. It simply requires both sides to play at their best. or just simple prediction.
You DO know that it still takes major prediction and smart thinking in order to prevent the chain from dying. Many hyper offense teams (especially ones with Bisharp) can stop BP teams simply by predicting Smeargle's Spore or Dark Void, and proceed to throw powerful attacks at the BP team or setting up SDs, CMs, or etc. , causing either substantial damage, OR killing the player's shot of setting up boosts. It simply requires both sides to play at their best. or just simple prediction.
The replays were mostly jokes, lol. And the assertion has been that this Pokemon will let you just win vs BP, no question. That's why we did 1v6 scenarios. The Gyarados doesn't go Mega right away so it doesn't get boned by Sylveon immediately. And that was also the stupidest possible Gyarados set, Sub / DD / Roar / Waterfall. The Sub was to stop Smeargle's Spore. The Thundurus replay was someone else's and not exactly very good, my bad, but if the BP player had Subbed for the +2, he would have beat the Thundurus -- slight adjustment to the scenario and the BP player would be winning.
Is Baton Pass a problem for the development of the metagame?
No, because a metagame is not a static thing. It is like a Pokemon in that it evolves. Should a strategy or concept within a metagame become dominant or popular, then it is up to the players of that game to discover or brainstorm ways to counter the strategy. Simply banning something because it is considered to be "cheap" or "not take skill" is silly. This comes across as whining. Also, stating that Baton Pass is unhealthy for the metagame is only true if no counters to the Baton Pass strategy can be found.
Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon would make Baton Pass manageable?
Of course Baton Pass will become more manageable if you remove the things that make it a viable strategy! That's like saying Stall teams would be more manageable if you removed instant recovery.
Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
No, even if I were to agree that Baton Pass teams are bad for the metagame, banning a move that has other uses (escaping Pursuit trapping, giving a teammate a simple one off boost or Substitute) makes no sense. Imo, the only things that should ever be banned (other than individual Pokemon in the sense of legendaries being Uber) are issues which can only be fixed by GameFreak changing their mechanics. Drizzle/Swift Swim is a good example of proper banning.
Would you support the introduction of complex bans?
While a complex ban would do a better job of addressing the issue than simply banning a move or Pokemon, I stand by my answer to the first question. A metagame is meant to change over time, not be a constant entity. The tools necessary to counter Baton Pass (Haze, Clear Smog, Perish Song, phazing, etc) may be considered niche given the current state of the metagame, but if Baton Pass becomes the dominant strategy that people seem to be arguing it already is, then these "niche" moves will become standard. Teambuilding is an integral part of competitive Pokemon, and understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your team is crucial. No team is EVER going to be able to counter every possible strategy or Pokemon.
No, because a metagame is not a static thing. It is like a Pokemon in that it evolves. Should a strategy or concept within a metagame become dominant or popular, then it is up to the players of that game to discover or brainstorm ways to counter the strategy. Simply banning something because it is considered to be "cheap" or "not take skill" is silly. This comes across as whining. Also, stating that Baton Pass is unhealthy for the metagame is only true if no counters to the Baton Pass strategy can be found.
Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon would make Baton Pass manageable?
Of course Baton Pass will become more manageable if you remove the things that make it a viable strategy! That's like saying Stall teams would be more manageable if you removed instant recovery.
Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
No, even if I were to agree that Baton Pass teams are bad for the metagame, banning a move that has other uses (escaping Pursuit trapping, giving a teammate a simple one off boost or Substitute) makes no sense. Imo, the only things that should ever be banned (other than individual Pokemon in the sense of legendaries being Uber) are issues which can only be fixed by GameFreak changing their mechanics. Drizzle/Swift Swim is a good example of proper banning.
Would you support the introduction of complex bans?
While a complex ban would do a better job of addressing the issue than simply banning a move or Pokemon, I stand by my answer to the first question. A metagame is meant to change over time, not be a constant entity. The tools necessary to counter Baton Pass (Haze, Clear Smog, Perish Song, phazing, etc) may be considered niche given the current state of the metagame, but if Baton Pass becomes the dominant strategy that people seem to be arguing it already is, then these "niche" moves will become standard. Teambuilding is an integral part of competitive Pokemon, and understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your team is crucial. No team is EVER going to be able to counter every possible strategy or Pokemon.
The Scolipede likely used Protect in case the Thundurus had Taunt, so it was not necessarily a stupid play. No one who actually knows anything about Baton Pass would say that any of the counters for Baton Pass require no skill to use, but they usually work if the player does know how to use them correctly.
I don't know where you play. But the showdown OU ladder is over saturated with the same Bp teams. The top 150+ and up or so use the same bp team, and shit players constantly hold the top 20's. It's used so often; in fact, that you cannot go past 1650+ WITHOUT seeing a bp team. They are everywhere. They are cancer. This requires all attention right now. You don't need to use BP well. It's an easy way for bad players to be successful, and this is why it needs to be nerfed. It doesn't just poison the metagame. It's destroyed the ladder.
After skimming over the thread a bit and from my own experience from playing against BP, it seems like a lot of people are getting caught up with the fact that they supposedly need to run obscure hard counters in order to beat BP. This is simply not true. There are many perfectly viable and relevant OU threats that are capable of handling it through consistent offensive pressure (i.e. CM Lando, MPinsir, Taunt MGard to name a few). Of course there's no 100% guarantee to win but then again, there's no 100% counter to any team archetype in Pokemon. I do recognize that the baton passer will have the switch/boosting advantage thanks to the speed boosts provided by Scolipede and if anything is to be banned, I believe it should be the use of a speed booster in the chain. However, at the end of the day, if you don't prepare for a relevant metagame threat, no matter how annoying or skill-less you deem it to be, it's your own fault for losing to it.
It has been argued multiple times that there are many possible bans that will make full defensive Baton Pass as a playstyle much more manageable if necessary, and a proposal similar to those of Kairyu_gen1 is to be tested before getting rid of this playstyle entirely - you claim that nothing of value will be lost by doing so, but this claim can obviously not be supported by a large number of players, and can certainly not be proven to be true. It disappoints me that you feel that as a player you may deny the legitimacy of successful playstyle, and thus its entitlement to a fair treatment (nerf) as opposed to a ban that renders the tactic unplayable.
But I'm repeating myself; I'm just posting to have you know that the anti-ban side is still present, and still requires an explanation on your wild presumption.
Baton Pass should NOT be banned! Speed boost Ninjask has been around forever, and no one really complained. Scolipede is better by leagues, I'm not denying that. But everything has weaknesses, lots of them, and that's what makes this now giant meta game evolve and change. Now new pokes can rise up to more viable tiers because they counter BP so well. If we ban Baton Pass all we'll ever see anymore are boring Trick Room teams. :(
...what
While I'm in favor of RU pokemon becoming OU, this isn't the best reason. Even obscure checks aren't superb. It needs a nerf.
And trick room isn't likely to be popular again without a major buff.
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nobody is saying that scolipede makes bp broken. It is the precise combination of pokemon who get baton pass and other boosting moves and abilities with very good synergy, makes it broken. You can think of a BP chain like a single pokemon, which is very much, like, wobuffet. It has got very few options to choose from, but with its ability, that's precisely what it needs.
And, welcome to Smogon. :-D
Speed Boost Ninjask could not spam Iron defense all day and takes 50% from rocks, while scolipede only takes 25%, which is 2 more switches/opportunities to set up its speed. And what do weaknesses matter when you can just swap out whatever pokemon you've got at little-to-no cost to your already acquired boosts?
And regarding your 'boring trick room teams' I don't think anyone will argue with me that watching a BP team battle almost anything isn't very interesting at all. I have run across two trick room teams in all my OU battles (including ones i've watched) one of which is my own -_- So yeah trick room isn't making a very dominant role in OU, and DEFINITELY isn't seeing as much play as BP teams are.
What about simply putting a limit on how many Pokemon on a team can have BP? No one argues about the validity of the Quick Pass, and Psychic Pokemon escaping Pursuit is a valid use. Make it that so only 2 Pokemon per team can have BP. If that's possible that should prevent excessive chaining. Without Mr. Mime Sound stops the strategy. Without Scolipede you need to work with a Pokemon that uses 2 stat buff moves, limiting it's versatility. Without Espeon the strategy can be stopped by Taunting.
I don't think I have ever posted on the Smogon forums before, but I have been playing on Showdown for quite some time and I think I'm experienced and skilled enough to make a suggestion.
Here's my take on baton passing teams and the arguments I've been seeing throughout this thread. I'd like to begin by saying I don't think baton pass needs to be banned all together, but definitely limited and here is why.
For starters baton passing has uses beyond the pure baton passing teams. This is obvious of course and this is why the move itself shouldn't be banned. I see a lot of members saying that taking away baton passing teams will limit the diversity of the teams found whilst playing online. This may be true. However, on the other end of the argument (and this is where my opinion lies) I think having to prep your team to counter a baton passing team limits diversity even more so than taking away the synergy of baton passing teams does; especially in the top of the ladder. That said I think there needs to be mends on the main Pokemon involved in those top tier baton passing teams and limit their capabilities of helping the flow of their respective teams.
My suggestions are:
Not allow baton passing to a team member with "stored power" when the stats are changed past a certain point. Ex: A Scizor with +3 attack, +3 defense, +4 sp defense, +4 speed not being allowed to baton pass to an Espeon with "stored power". However, another example that can be allowed is a Scolipede baton passing with +2 attack and +3 speed to an Espeon with "stored power". This applied to any Pokemon with stored power.
Another limit could be not allowing a substitute to be baton passed to an Pokemon with "magic bounce". This would leave the Pokemon more vulnerable to attacks .A combination of these 2 suggestions could make baton passing teams more fair and easier to handle without the hope for a crit or some other sort of hax.
Here's my take on baton passing teams and the arguments I've been seeing throughout this thread. I'd like to begin by saying I don't think baton pass needs to be banned all together, but definitely limited and here is why.
For starters baton passing has uses beyond the pure baton passing teams. This is obvious of course and this is why the move itself shouldn't be banned. I see a lot of members saying that taking away baton passing teams will limit the diversity of the teams found whilst playing online. This may be true. However, on the other end of the argument (and this is where my opinion lies) I think having to prep your team to counter a baton passing team limits diversity even more so than taking away the synergy of baton passing teams does; especially in the top of the ladder. That said I think there needs to be mends on the main Pokemon involved in those top tier baton passing teams and limit their capabilities of helping the flow of their respective teams.
My suggestions are:
Not allow baton passing to a team member with "stored power" when the stats are changed past a certain point. Ex: A Scizor with +3 attack, +3 defense, +4 sp defense, +4 speed not being allowed to baton pass to an Espeon with "stored power". However, another example that can be allowed is a Scolipede baton passing with +2 attack and +3 speed to an Espeon with "stored power". This applied to any Pokemon with stored power.
Another limit could be not allowing a substitute to be baton passed to an Pokemon with "magic bounce". This would leave the Pokemon more vulnerable to attacks .A combination of these 2 suggestions could make baton passing teams more fair and easier to handle without the hope for a crit or some other sort of hax.
What. No, just no.
Banning Scolipede and/or Espeon is a horrible answer to nerfing Baton Pass. You are literally just ruining the viability of a PKMN to stop Baton Pass dominance, and even if you did, Baton Pass is still having the same effect. Does anyone mind telling me how many PKMN run Whirlwind? Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Mandibuzz; that's all. No one uses Haze. Sure, there's Taunt, but I remember there was something that stopped it for BP iirc (don't quote me on this ok?) If you see Roar, then Mr. Mime is still in your way. Espeon being banned is not a solution. You are just killing a Pokemon for no reason. Lol "ban Scolipede". Is that a solution? No. Scolipede was just a faster way of getting boosts. I hope you realize there is PKMN called Mew which can also Iron Defense + Agility Pass.
Banning Scolipede + Baton Pass is complex banning: it's just ruining a PKMNs viability limiting it to the SD set only. Not a solution.
To be honest, I think there is only one good solution which multiple people like Ninja Charizard and RhymeBeat have said. We have limited one PKMN per team to be put to sleep and frozen. Why don't we do the same to Baton Pass?
BP Clause: No more than 1 (or 2 idk) Pokemon can have Baton Pass as their move per team.
This clause nerf the "uncompetitiveness" of BP and will help create a healthier metagame. Scolipede and Espeon are the only two BP users you'll see in OU and they are both very viable. We don't want to simultaneously nerf BP while also hurting a PKMN's viability. It's common sense. Baton Pass is simply an easy way to win without skill [aka uncompetitive!]. Action needs to be taken. If most of the forum support this idea of limiting Baton Pass to one or two members per team, Haunter, I'd like to see this as a possible suspect test.
Banning Scolipede and/or Espeon is a horrible answer to nerfing Baton Pass. You are literally just ruining the viability of a PKMN to stop Baton Pass dominance, and even if you did, Baton Pass is still having the same effect. Does anyone mind telling me how many PKMN run Whirlwind? Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Mandibuzz; that's all. No one uses Haze. Sure, there's Taunt, but I remember there was something that stopped it for BP iirc (don't quote me on this ok?) If you see Roar, then Mr. Mime is still in your way. Espeon being banned is not a solution. You are just killing a Pokemon for no reason. Lol "ban Scolipede". Is that a solution? No. Scolipede was just a faster way of getting boosts. I hope you realize there is PKMN called Mew which can also Iron Defense + Agility Pass.
Banning Scolipede + Baton Pass is complex banning: it's just ruining a PKMNs viability limiting it to the SD set only. Not a solution.
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are smogon ruining the metagame?BP Clause: No more than 1 (or 2 idk) Pokemon can have Baton Pass as their move per team.
This clause nerf the "uncompetitiveness" of BP and will help create a healthier metagame. Scolipede and Espeon are the only two BP users you'll see in OU and they are both very viable. We don't want to simultaneously nerf BP while also hurting a PKMN's viability. It's common sense. Baton Pass is simply an easy way to win without skill [aka uncompetitive!]. Action needs to be taken. If most of the forum support this idea of limiting Baton Pass to one or two members per team, Haunter, I'd like to see this as a possible suspect test.
Except these are not counters. Haze prelongs the battle as they can just keep setting up. Clear Smog works in the same way as haze and even worse it doesn't go through subs. Perish Song won't work because of Mr.Mime blocking them because of sound proof and phazing won't work because of ingrain and espeon.
The problem is that if these pokemon do fail, then you will have almost no chance of winning against baton pass. While if you play against a different playstyle, you may still have a chance if you lose one of your win conditions if you play well.
I also think that limiting the number of baton pass pokemon used on one team is the best way to nerf baton pass teams. Any other complex bans leaves a perfectly viable strategy from being used.
If Espeon does happen to be banned (I'm neither saying that it will or that it should be), it would really be your own fault if you don't run whirlwind or taunt, two moves with a decent selection of pokemon that learn it. We shouldn't make full BP non-existant or impossible to use, we should just make it harder to use (such as a Magic Bounce+Speed Boost ban so that you have to chose between Espeon and Scoliopede). Also there is no freeze clause in effect.
I should have known better than to use the word counter for this^ exact reason. You're focusing on my choice of words rather than the point I was trying to make about the metagame.
Anyway, if you can disrupt the Baton Pass chain by resetting the boosts, even if they can "keep setting up" as you put it, then their strategy is worthless. You can directly attack the opponent once they lose their boosts and wear them down as they scramble to regain them. If you get any entry hazards set up, then the forced switching to keep trying to boost is going to wear the opponent down. (And yes, I realize Magic Bounce can stop entry hazards)
As you said early in your response, it is up to the players to decide how to counter a strategy. I agree. But, if the community of players (the ones smart enough to identify whether or not countering baton pass causes over-centralization of the metagame) eventually decides to employ a complex ban to nerf baton pass, would you support this? It is ultimately up to the players after all.
The metagame is meant to change over time. Once again, I agree. One thing I personally don't like about baton pass is that the strategy revolves around a pretty constant team with very little variation. While this is change from where the previous metagame was at, I don't quite see that as healthy. The metagame needs to be diverse, and the baton pass strategy uses one team and one team only (again, maybe someone might choose to swap around one or two mons, but the core team is essentially the same). This is the very definition of over centralizing.
One thing that I do not quite agree with is this "Baton Pass is unhealthy for the metagame is only true if no counters to the Baton Pass strategy can be found". That doesn't quite work. A true counter exists for nearly everything (e.g. Gastrodon walls Kyogre most the time), but some counters really are obscure or very few. Quaggy and Tentacruel with haze are obscure but reliable counters to baton pass. From what I've heard, Mega Pinsir and Mega Heracross can be quite dangerous too, but none of these are "hard counters" to the baton pass strategy. For example, Zapdos walls Mega Pinsir (unless the player is odd enough to let it SD four times) and Sylveon walls Mega Heracross - coming back to my point about baton pass revolving around a core team; Sylveon and Zapdos are almost always in this core.
Just my thoughts :)
If a complex ban is to be passed, I would support simply limiting the number of Pokemon that can have the move per team. While I still feel that banning things is something to avoid if possible, preventing the Baton Pass "team" is the least restrictive solution. If Baton Pass teams are generally the same core group of Pokemon over and over, then perhaps it is necessary to try and encourage more creative teambuilding through a ban.
I have not encountered many Baton Pass teams on Showdown, and in my limited experience once I break the chain, my opponent rage quits. I realize that higher up on the ladder, people are not prone to forfeiting over such things, but it is also my opinion that ladder rankings are simply for matching you with opponents at or around your skill level.
um.. what?
BP Teams require very little skill and prediction to use, I know how to BP and Ive never used one in my life. Oh and I don't think there is any pokemon who uses Snatch on a competetive set.
Yup, I agree through and through.
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