Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Colonel M]

Rotosect, nobody ever implied that Baton Pass can't be beaten. If that was the case, Baton Pass would have been instantly banned at the beginning of Gen VI. I just said that, unless you have a reliable way to break the chain, you have very high chances of losing to it. And, once again, Baton Pass is not comparable to a single Pokémon.

Also, balanced offense refuse to adapt to Baton Pass cause including dedicated counters to Baton Pass means making the team overall worse and less effective.

If anything, balanced offense refuses to adapt because it would have to mold itself into hyper offensive. Let's face it - balanced offense sucks when you place "casual counters" to your team just for one type of team. It is different from stallbreakers too because stallbreakers are not entirely deadweight against certain teams.

Also whoever keeps saying Perish Song is a headache to Baton Pass - stop. Mr. Mime completely nullifies Perish Song (even if it is used on another one of its teammates and it is Baton Passed to him) and the only Perish Song user that is even close to threatening Mr Mime is Gengar. And dont use the argument that Baton Pass teams might not carry Mr Mime - those are just crappy wannabe Baton Pass teams that are strictly inferior to the current mold.

 

[deepbluejeer]

I believe Kairyu_Gen1 brought it up earlier in this thread as a potential solution to this debate, but I'd like to expand on it and bring forth the possibility of Scolipede as a suspect for its support capabilities. From the Portrait of an Uber thread:

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Now, I'm aware that these characteristics are somewhat outdated, but they're a start. Scolipede is a huge improvement over Ninjask because:
1) It isn't frail.
2) It carries Iron Defense, which overall is more helpful than Swords Dance in supporting a team.
3) It is also not dead weight offensively, meaning it can work around Taunt.

Scolipede is arguably the most important member of the Baton Pass chain, making the other team members almost impossible to break through on the physical side while also amassing Speed boosts just by alternating between Substitute and Protect. Priority Brave Bird and Taunt are a problem, but Scolipede carries Rock Slide, which, with proper prediction, can remove either Talonflame or Thundurus and allow Scolipede to freely gather Speed Boosts.

Scolipede can also quick-pass outside of BP teams, and I think the support it brings definitely has the potential to make it substantially easier for its teammates to sweep. See Ajwf's Not Stall RMT, which has two possible recipients for Scolipede's boosts.

I don't have that much experience with Scolipede though, so I'd like to hear the opinions of those who've used him enough. Is Scolipede broken under the support characteristic, based on his performance in and out of Baton Pass teams?

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I wasn't trying to imply that if your Hazer is your last Pokemon you can win... If you can disrupt the chain, the individual pieces of the chain can be checked or countered as individuals. This shouldn't require any strain on teambuilding because it has been made clear that none of the Baton Pass users are gamebreaking by themselves, just when they are freely passing stat boosts to each other.

The whole point of Baton Pass teams is that you can't counter them as individuals because they don't play as individuals. They play like one giant Pokemon, and they can just go to a counter to your counter without wasting any boosts or momentum whatsoever. In addition, since they have the switch initiative, no amount of double switching will ever put you in an advantageous position like it might for a normal team.

Please don't just repeat the "it's not viable" argument. Is it standard? No. But you choose a Pokemon for your team to do a job for the team. If it can accomplish that job, then it is viable.

Ok, I figure that it's about time I responded to this because so much of your argument hinges on a clear misunderstanding of what the term "viable" truly means. The fact that something can perform a job for its team does not make it viable. Technically, everything can "do a job for the team," even if it's a small one. When discussing a Pokemon or move's viability, you have to take into account more than just, "Can this Pokemon/move perform a job for my team?" You have to take in how good it is at that job, how valuable the job is, how valuable the Pokemon/move is when not performing its main job, etc. Donphan performs a lot of unique jobs. It can set Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin at the same time, it has solid physical bulk and a relatively unique defensive typing for checking a handful of physically-based threats, it has Ice Shard to help (theoretically) check sweepers such as Dragonite and Garchomp, and it even gets the buffed Knock Off. However, Donphan still has very low viability because it's a mediocre Pokemon in general. It's setup bait for several Pokemon, its Ice Shard is too horribly weak to consistently check the things you might think it would, its speed and special bulk are bad, and it's overall just outclassed at virtually every job it can perform. For an even more extreme example, Golurk is the only Pokemon in the game that can spinblock its own Stealth Rock, and it also makes for one of the best answers to Terrakion out there. Those are pretty cool "jobs," but Golurk is still not viable because those jobs aren't nearly a big enough deal to make up for its many flaws and the fact that several other Pokemon can do some of the same stuff it can while being able to perform much more admirably outside of those specific jobs.

Haze falls into this same category. When dealing with setup sweepers, you will almost always be far better off keeping them in check through other methods, whether it be switching to a counter, revenge killing, statusing the sweeper, etc. Haze doesn't even do anything besides remove boosts, while any of the other aforementioned methods threaten to put the sweeper out of commission altogether. If it were not for Baton Pass, Haze would have very little use simply because its main job (stopping setup sweepers) can be better done by other methods, making it an outclassed, unnecessary, and unviable move.

 

[Rotosect]

Haze falls into this same category. When dealing with setup sweepers, you will almost always be far better off keeping them in check through other methods, whether it be switching to a counter, revenge killing, statusing the sweeper, etc. Haze doesn't even do anything besides remove boosts, while any of the other aforementioned methods threaten to put the sweeper out of commission altogether. If it were not for Baton Pass, Haze would have very little use simply because its main job (stopping setup sweepers) can be better done by other methods, making it an outclassed, unnecessary, and unviable move.

"If X didn't exist then we wouldn't need to use Y" is a terrible argument.
It's the same one people used against being forced to use Rapid Spin to deal with SR unil Defog got buffed: it's a momentum-killing, hideously weak move with horrible distribution that 90% of the teams carried just to deal with Stealth Rock. It also had other benefits like removing Leech Seed and Spikes, but the former was practically a non-factor against most teams, and Spikes aren't as crippling as SR is.
Haze is a specialized move, just like Rapid Spin is. If your team is seriously weak to BP chains then run Haze, it's that simple. It's no different than using Gastrodon if you're weak to rain teams or Taunt Gliscor if you have issues against stall.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

"If X didn't exist then we wouldn't need to use Y" is a terrible argument.
It's the same one people used against being forced to use Rapid Spin to deal with SR unil Defog got buffed: it's a momentum-killing, hideously weak move with horrible distribution that 90% of the teams carried just to deal with Stealth Rock.

Well I'll tell you what, when Baton Pass starts being used on 99% of teams such that Haze is only pointless in 1% of the matches you play, you might have a valid comparison.

It also had other benefits like removing Leech Seed and Spikes, but the former was practically a non-factor against most teams, and Spikes aren't as crippling as SR is.

Just because Stealth Rock is more crippling than Spikes doesn't mean that Rapid Spin and Defog will suddenly become unviable if it were banned. Rapid Spin was a big deal for two generations before Stealth Rock even existed because Spikes was there, not to mention the existence of Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web.

But hey, if you want to start a campaign to ban Stealth Rock, be my guest.

Haze is a specialized move, just like Rapid Spin is. If your team is seriously weak to BP chains then run Haze, it's that simple. It's no different than using Gastrodon if you're weak to rain teams or Taunt Gliscor if you have issues against stall.

Except those aren't completely pointless outside of beating Rain/stall. Besides, does this mean we can unban stuff like Moody and Kyogre because you can just run a phazer or Gastrodon if you're really weak to them? I know the natural response is, "You can't compare a Pokemon or ability with an entire playstyle," but seeing as how you just compared it to Stealth Rock (a single move), I think we can allow this one.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

"If X didn't exist then we wouldn't need to use Y" is a terrible argument.
It's the same one people used against being forced to use Rapid Spin to deal with SR unil Defog got buffed: it's a momentum-killing, hideously weak move with horrible distribution that 90% of the teams carried just to deal with Stealth Rock. It also had other benefits like removing Leech Seed and Spikes, but the former was practically a non-factor against most teams, and Spikes aren't as crippling as SR is.
Haze is a specialized move, just like Rapid Spin is. If your team is seriously weak to BP chains then run Haze, it's that simple. It's no different than using Gastrodon if you're weak to rain teams or Taunt Gliscor if you have issues against stall.

Big difference, SR was annoying as hell, but nobody lost only because of it (unless you had volt turn of course), and not many people legitimately thought it was broken, just annoying. It was at least something now considered to require skill, while with its formulaic nature, nobody will ever say that about bp as it is now.

 

[Srn]

Hey guys, can I just bring something up right now?
People seem to think that if a pokemon gets haze, it's suddenly a hard counter to baton pass or something...

Haze has 48 pp. Baton pass has 64 pp. You're going up against 6 baton pass users. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Moving on.

I would like to stop you here. You said if your team is "weak to Kyurem-B". Well, how about the fact that not every team archetype is weak to Baton Pass? Hyper-offense can still be potentially beaten, but by now it should be clear that BP teams struggle against them. The reason is obvious: HO teams can hit hard from turn 1, BP teams can't. This is their worst weakness and HO capitalize on this in order to shut them down as quickly as possible.

However, you have to keep in mind that these attackers must be special, and a quick iron defense from Scolipede on turn 1 is taking plenty of physical attacks, narrowing your physical choices (pokemon that can beat scolipede at +2) to Mega Heracross, Mega Pinsir, and Talonflame.

Then we have stall teams, who usually pack something like Unaware users, Perish Song or Sableye who give BP teams headaches. This is roughly a 50/50 match-up for both sides.

Unaware users don't do much against baton pass, stored power beats the shit out of them through raw base power. Thought we established that on page 3 or something.
Forget Stall, Perish Song and Sableye in general are incredibly rare! How can you even say "Stall teams usually pack (insert obscure and ineffective baton pass "counter" here) when you basically waste an entire moveslot to simply prolong the match against an entire style of play?
EVERY teamslot counts for so much more in a defensive team. That's what makes stall so much tougher to run.

Rain teams are making a comeback and from my experience if they have Perish Song Politoed and the BP team has Zapdos instead of Mr.Mime they pretty much auto-win.

Most Politoeds don't carry Perish Song, but I'll give you that.

Even if BP teams do have Mr.Mime, they have major issues against Kabutops and Thundurus, who can deal lots of damage in the first few turns much like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir do in the standard HO teams. What exactly is a BP team doing against Kabutops? Send Vaporeon out? That's where a rain team user predicts, makes a double switch and sends Thundurus out, who has a field day against Vappy.

I don't think you understand how baton pass works.
Do you know what makes baton pass so great? It's like U-turn or Volt Switch, just that it doesn't attack and passes on additional effects.
What this means is that Baton pass goes after any switches are made.
What this means is that any type of double switching is entirely useless against baton pass. So your whole argument there is useless.

This scenario exemplifies the other major weakness of BP chains: they have no entry hazards! You're not punished for making double switches against them

Can't make them in the first place

and you can take advantage of their fast Baton Pass (after a couple of speed boosts) with a slow Volt Switch/U-Turn in order to keep momentum on your side.

And you're wasting your precious turns to break the chain early on in the game "keeping momentum" ??? Doesn't matter if you can keep momentum if your thundurus is still losing to a +3 speed/+2 sp. att+/+2. spdef/+4 def vaporeon behind a sub. There's not a lot your team can do with ANY pokemon once a member has attained enough boosts.

Oh and there's also Manaphy, who is extremely dangerous with its Tail Glow set. Hydration also makes it immune to Spore and it's faster than Smeargle/Mr.Mime so it doesn't fear Encore either.
Overall, rain teams are strong against BP teams.

Well, unless you have specs politoed, you have to waste a turn getting rain up in the first place, which is once again wasting precious turns you may have at the beginning of the battle.
Also, speed boost makes smeargle/mr. mime much faster than manaphy, especially because manaphy can't even boost its speed.

Finally, there is balanced offense. This is the team archetype that struggles against BP because it may or may not carry the right offensive checks and it usually doesn't have room to carry the "gimmicky" answers BP teams require such as Perish Song.

No team has the room to carry that crap. Any given team will want some other pokemon in their last slot over some shitty perish song user to check 10% of your matches.

However, even these teams could actually beat BP teams if they dedicated a teamslot for those. In BW we had weatherless and sun teams carrying Kingdra and Gastrodon specifically to deal with rain teams, in other words they used a pokemon that would counter an entire playstyle they were weak against.

So you're saying that Baton pass is as common as rain was in gen 5. Otherwise, it wouldn't make too much sense to be dedicating an entire teamslot to checking baton pass.

Isn't the entire idea behind balanced offense to play as an offensive/defensive hybrid playstyle with the goal of adapting to the rest of the metagame? Why can't they adapt to Baton Pass teams? Why do they refuse to adapt? Is it because BP is not a "honorable" playstyle and it shouldn't be taken seriously? Why is BP the team archetype that needs to be nerfed, and not balanced offense who needs to adapt or succumb?

I dunno, do you want to start wasting an entire team slot to some shitty NU pokemon that hardly checks 10% of your games and is complete deadweight the other 90% of the time?

 

[Facepalmboook]

The whole Baton Pass discussion reminds me of SkarmBliss in early D/P. The time when Blissey was the most used pokemon in OU. People have claimed that this combo was broken and unbeatable... until Infernapes usage raised. Infernape was able to deal with Skarmory and Blissey. However, people added Cresserlia to this combo, making it even stronger... Until Swords Dance Lucario and TyraniBOAH, witch could handle the trio.

So, the Question is: Is there a Pokemon that can deal with Baton Pass singlehanded???

The Answer is yes. There is one pokemon that can win against baton pass everytime.

This Pokemon is Murkrow. With acsess to Priority Haze, Perish Song and taunt, it is able to break most every baton pass chain. Murkrow is not deadweight outside of countering Baton Pass. It has acess to Thunderwave to cripple sweepers, FeatherDance to soften up physical attacks and to help pokemon to switch in, Defog for oblivious reasons, Roost for recovery and Haze can be used to stop setup sweepers.It has also decent offensive stats. It has surprisingly decent bulk thanks to eviolite, but it shouldn't be used for Walling, because it's outclassed by Mandibuzz in this case. It is an Utility Pokemon, it stops set up sweepers and provides additional support or breaks walls with taunt and Brave Bird/Toxic/Heat Wave and Roost, or it Perish Traps. It can even run Offensive sets.

However, Murkrow has flaws. The first one is obliviously: Knock Off. Knock Off removes Eviolite, the only reason why Murkrow can take hits. Note that it still can use Status moves or remove Status boosts, even without Eviolite.
The second one is, it can't take strong SE hits without Calm Mind or FeatherDance.
As long as it dosen't Carry CM or FeatherDance, it struggles against Physical 'mons with a Specialy Defensive Spread and vice versa. It can still cripple them.

Conclusion: Murkrow can break Chains singlehanded and chip their Health away with Knock Off or BB, or cripple their users. It isn't deadweight outside of countering these teams and has several decent niches. Murkrow is exactly the pokemon you should look for when you have problenms with Baton Pass, Set up Sweepers, Hazards or Walls.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

I absolutely agree with Non-Guest 31415 that we really need to do more actual testing instead of going round in circles bringing up so-called counters and checks to BP. We've pretty much established that we need to implement some kind of ban, but it's not quite clear which one. The way I see it, there are a total of 7 types of team we need to test in order to understand what exactly makes BP uncompetetive and help us figure out the best way to nerf it :

• Full BP (This is what the other BP teams will be compared to. If a battle with another BP team goes the same way as with this one, both concerning the actual battle turns and the players' experiences, it's a sure sign that the team is still broken.)
• Full BP without Scolipede
• Full BP without Espeon
• Full BP without either Scolipede or Espeon
  
• BP with 4 users
• BP with 3 users
• BP with 2 users

Obviously, we should come up with the best possible team according to the given parameters, which is why I think we should to work together and create these teams collectively. This shouldn't be too hard to optimize, since these are all a few steps removed from full BP which is optimized itself. I already have a 3 BP user team (Scoliopede / Espeon / Sylveon / Victini / Heatran / Landorus, although Landorus is basically filler and has yet to do anything at all), and I'd like it if other people could share their own BP testing teams so that we can try to improve them and try them out.

Add to that list:
Banning of Stored Power + Baton Pass.

I would also think we should try 5 member Baton Pass before we jump to 4. This may seem pointless to some, but it may be enough to stop Baton Pass teams. Just how every single member of a stall team is so important, every member of a Baton Pass team is important as well.

" A lot of dealing with checks is simply killing off your least likely to be used Pokemon. So now your just giving them something to kill easier!"
True, but having to chose between keeping Mr. Mime, Zapdos, Gliscor, Smeargle and Sylveon is much worse than having to chose between keeping two of them. Any one you pick leaves you weak to something. This essentially opens up more counters to baton pass while still allowing Baton Pass players to capitalize on the standard meta.

This to me is what its all about. Baton Pass is only good because its counters are obscure, underused Pokemon. So lets try to nerf Baton Pass without destorying it. Lets force people to counter it but give them slightly more options to counter it.

Teams lacking Zapdos will lose to Talonflame and Pinsir. Teams lacking smeargle can't do much against consistent phasing. Teams lacking Mr. Mime are weak to sound moves like Perish Song and Boomburst/Hypervoice. Teams lacking sylveon are weak to deoxys-s and aegislash. Etc.

So now the Baton Pass players are inherently weaker in that they have more counters that cannot address (comparable to 4 move slot syndrome). If they try to deal with there weakness by running a counter to it as their 6th Pokemon, they will have to reset their chain until they deal with the threat, which is a difficult process as we know. Everyone is basically given Haze, in that they can reset the chain much easier. Here, Baton Pass can still compete and possibly still win, but it will have a much harder time. Smart play and predictions will be rewarded much more, and Baton Pass will remain a playable style.

Baton Pass with only 5 members will still be able to capitalize on the fact that people overuse a standard set of Pokemon, forcing the meta to evolve. But the extent of this evolution will be much less, as a team of only 5 Baton Passers is inherently weaker to a larger set of Pokemon (granted they are all not all same and diversity still exists).

 

[Rosen]

The whole Baton Pass discussion reminds me of SkarmBliss in early D/P. The time when Blissey was the most used pokemon in OU. People have claimed that this combo was broken and unbeatable... until Infernapes usage raised. Infernape was able to deal with Skarmory and Blissey. However, people added Cresserlia to this combo, making it even stronger... Until Swords Dance Lucario and TyraniBOAH, witch could handle the trio.

So, the Question is: Is there a Pokemon that can deal with Baton Pass singlehanded???

The Answer is yes. There is one pokemon that can win against baton pass everytime.

This Pokemon is Murkrow. With acsess to Priority Haze, Perish Song and taunt, it is able to break most every baton pass chain. Murkrow is not deadweight outside of countering Baton Pass. It has acess to Thunderwave to cripple sweepers, FeatherDance to soften up physical attacks and to help pokemon to switch in, Defog for oblivious reasons, Roost for recovery and Haze can be used to stop setup sweepers.It has also decent offensive stats. It has surprisingly decent bulk thanks to eviolite, but it shouldn't be used for Walling, because it's outclassed by Mandibuzz in this case. It is an Utility Pokemon, it stops set up sweepers and provides additional support or breaks walls with taunt and Brave Bird/Toxic/Heat Wave and Roost, or it Perish Traps. It can even run Offensive sets.

However, Murkrow has flaws. The first one is obliviously: Knock Off. Knock Off removes Eviolite, the only reason why Murkrow can take hits. Note that it still can use Status moves or remove Status boosts, even without Eviolite.
The second one is, it can't take strong SE hits without Calm Mind or FeatherDance.
As long as it dosen't Carry CM or FeatherDance, it struggles against Physical 'mons with a Specialy Defensive Spread and vice versa. It can still cripple them.

Conclusion: Murkrow can break Chains singlehanded and chip their Health away with Knock Off or BB, or cripple their users. It isn't deadweight outside of countering these teams and has several decent niches. Murkrow is exactly the pokemon you should look for when you have problenms with Baton Pass, Set up Sweepers, Hazards or Walls.

Except Murkrow is terrible against the entire rest of the metagame. It's obscure and not even NU viable, let alone OU. I don't think an LC pokemon is a good answer to this issue.

 

[TrippingRocks]

The whole Baton Pass discussion reminds me of SkarmBliss in early D/P. The time when Blissey was the most used pokemon in OU. People have claimed that this combo was broken and unbeatable... until Infernapes usage raised. Infernape was able to deal with Skarmory and Blissey. However, people added Cresserlia to this combo, making it even stronger... Until Swords Dance Lucario and TyraniBOAH, witch could handle the trio.

So, the Question is: Is there a Pokemon that can deal with Baton Pass singlehanded???

The Answer is yes. There is one pokemon that can win against baton pass everytime.

This Pokemon is Murkrow. With acsess to Priority Haze, Perish Song and taunt, it is able to break most every baton pass chain. Murkrow is not deadweight outside of countering Baton Pass. It has acess to Thunderwave to cripple sweepers, FeatherDance to soften up physical attacks and to help pokemon to switch in, Defog for oblivious reasons, Roost for recovery and Haze can be used to stop setup sweepers.It has also decent offensive stats. It has surprisingly decent bulk thanks to eviolite, but it shouldn't be used for Walling, because it's outclassed by Mandibuzz in this case. It is an Utility Pokemon, it stops set up sweepers and provides additional support or breaks walls with taunt and Brave Bird/Toxic/Heat Wave and Roost, or it Perish Traps. It can even run Offensive sets.

However, Murkrow has flaws. The first one is obliviously: Knock Off. Knock Off removes Eviolite, the only reason why Murkrow can take hits. Note that it still can use Status moves or remove Status boosts, even without Eviolite.
The second one is, it can't take strong SE hits without Calm Mind or FeatherDance.
As long as it dosen't Carry CM or FeatherDance, it struggles against Physical 'mons with a Specialy Defensive Spread and vice versa. It can still cripple them.

Conclusion: Murkrow can break Chains singlehanded and chip their Health away with Knock Off or BB, or cripple their users. It isn't deadweight outside of countering these teams and has several decent niches. Murkrow is exactly the pokemon you should look for when you have problenms with Baton Pass, Set up Sweepers, Hazards or Walls.

You're serious, aren't you? You're seriously comparing Murkrow to Infernape, Lucario, and Tyranitar? Literally the only compelling reason to use Murkrow in OU is to stop BP teams. Maybe Murkrow isn't COMPLETE AND UTTER deadweight outside of BP teams, but its niche can hardly justify its puny stats. Infernape had more things going for it, he was still a decent wallbreaker against teams lacking in Blissey+Skarmory.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Both the above comments for anti ban are jokes. Please ignore. Lets stick to the idea that:
1. If the meta evolves we will see Baton Pass is overcentralizing
2. If the meta evolves Baton Pass will be get shut down by single pokemon or single moves, which, given the right support, can be OU viable - feeding off the abundance of Baton Pass teams.

If it proves to be overcentralizing, I suggest a simple 5 pokemon per baton pass ban as suggested in detail above.

 

[Facepalmboook]

Except Murkrow is terrible against the entire rest of the metagame. It's obscure and not even NU viable, let alone OU. I don't think an LC pokemon is a good answer to this issue.

Priority Defog is horible. It's sadly illegal. Stopping set up sweepers is horible. Spreading Paralysis is horible. Breaking walls is horible. EDIT: thats irony.

You're serious, aren't you? You're seriously comparing Murkrow to Infernape, Lucario, and Tyranitar? Literally the only compelling reason to use Murkrow in OU is to stop BP teams. Maybe Murkrow isn't COMPLETE AND UTTER deadweight outside of BP teams, but its niche can hardly justify its puny stats. Infernape had more things going for it, he was still a decent wallbreaker against teams lacking in Blissey+Skarmory.

Really, if Salbey sees competetive use with its horible stats, why shouldn't you use Murkrow? Both are decent Prankster users. And it has a larger support movepool than Mandibuzz. While it stats are puny, it can still do it's job. Also, Im not comparing Tyranitar, Lucario and Infernape with Murkrow. I'm comparing the metagame with the early DP metagame and found this similarity.

 

[skies]

People are seriously talking about Murkrow of all things? Smfh. Murkrow doesn't get Priority Defog first off, it is a Gen 4 HM so it can't have it with Prankster. Second of all, it has 0 offensive presence and fucking 42 Defenses. If you think Murkrow is anywhere near viable in OU, then you need your head checked right away. Murkrow can Haze or Perish Song once then it dies, making your team basically 5/6.

 

[leafbarrett]

Priority Defog is horrible.

It's also illegal. Murkrow only gets Defog from gen 4, and obviously, Prankster wasn't a thing then, nor were hidden abilities. So let's just shut down even the joke right there, hm?

 

[teamsnickers]

What I didn't enplane was that even with a turn one misplay by sacking thundey i was still able to win just by using mfing np thundey and also tflame and thundey are to extreme viable pokemon in ou when i was 1850 rank that all people use is thundey. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-106446394 heres the link again btw im glad everyone is passionate about this topic it should be debated but if anything should be banned its thundey its mega luc part 2.

 

[Mowtom]

where you you whiners when rain was making gen 5 OU shitty?

and BP has serious problems with set up sweepers; something like NP thundurus or BD azumarill shits on baton pass. all I see from this thread is "i don't wanna have to adapt my bog-standard team to beat BP".

Well that's great, but by the same reasoning I shouldn't have to adapt my crappy team of 6 fast sweepers because it gets beaten by trick room. the solution is obviously to ban trick room so my team archetype of 6 sweepers is still viable (/sarcasm)

The reason that argument doesn't work is because nobody uses Trick Room. As was said earlier, it is only a threat in Doubles and possibly RU. And guess what? In those metas, people do adapt to it.

 

[Facepalmboook]

People are seriously talking about Murkrow of all things? Smfh. Murkrow doesn't get Priority Defog first off, it is a Gen 4 HM so it can't have it with Prankster. Second of all, it has 0 offensive presence and fucking 42 Defenses. If you think Murkrow is anywhere near viable in OU, then you need your head checked right away. Murkrow can Haze or Perish Song once then it dies, making your team basically 5/6.

You are talking about base Defense. However, you have to think about its defense stats at LV 100 with eviolite and maximum Defensive investment.
With Eviolite and maximum investment in Def and HP, it has a defense of 301 backed up with 323 HP. The other defensive stat is 180. While not being amazingly bulky, this is enought to do what its supposed to do, when you consisder that it has CM and featherdance to back up its weaker defensive stat, it dosen't seem horribly unbulky. Also, althought Base 85 is not horible, it dosen't need to have offensive Presence.

Conclusion: You're secretly in favor of nerfing BP and, inspired by the Numel suggestion in the Swagger thread, you're trying to come up with a suggestion so bad that pro-ban supporters can use it as proof that Baton Pass is uncounterable.

NO! Numel had absolutly no use against every other playstile. It died to everything bar Swagplay. This is actually something serious. Murkrow has niches outside of countering one Playstile.

 

[skies]

You are talking about base Defense. However, you have to think about its defense stats at LV 100 with eviolite and maximum Defensive investment.
With Eviolite and maximum investment in Def and HP, it has a defense of 301 backed up with 323 HP. The other defensive stat is 180. While not being amazingly bulky, this is enought to do what its supposed to do, when you consisder that it has CM and featherdance to back up its weaker defensive stat, it dosen't seem horribly unbulky. Also, althought Base 85 is not horible, it dosen't need to have offensive Presence.

Stop trying to defend a shitmon. With 252+ on one side you have the equivalent of 87 Defense, while the other side is still only 72, which is nowhere near bulky enough to be considered a wall. Just, stop, you're trying to make a point and it's a very idiotic point.

 

[doughboy]

Both the above comments for anti ban are jokes. Please ignore. Lets stick to the idea that:
1. If the meta evolves we will see Baton Pass is overcentralizing
2. If the meta evolves Baton Pass will be get shut down by single pokemon or single moves, which, given the right support, can be OU viable - feeding off the abundance of Baton Pass teams.

If it proves to be overcentralizing, I suggest a simple 5 pokemon per baton pass ban as suggested in detail above.

The metagame isn't going to evolve around Baton Pass simply because the counter measures to nullify its boosts or the beginning or its chain are so extremely limited, especially for defensive teams. In my previous post, I outlined how the options that are available to Baton Pass to defensive teams are essentially nullified by Baton Pass. We already know the metagame has "evolved" to account for Baton Pass when many defensive teams are incorporating silly movesets like Haze Unaware Quagsire (which btw gets 2HKO'ed by unboosted Sylveon's Hyper Voice).

Baton Pass abuses the fact that its counters are niche and whose job is largely only to dismantle Baton Pass. You lose to Baton Pass by choice (you full win or full lose) for not running those options. Choosing not to run those niche options is the correct choice though, it's basic game theory. "What is going to net me the most wins?" - every teambuiler ever. "I can choose to completely counteract Baton Pass with Haze, but Haze will not put me at an advantage against any other kind of team. Therefore, I should run option x over Haze." From a competitive standpoint, Haze is always the wrong choice, another option will by and large get you the most wins. This idea isn't just for Haze either, it also encompasses move sets like Taunt+NP Thundurus (it does have other uses but Thunder Wave and Focus Blast are superior), Perish Song Gengar, and lol Mold Breaker + Roar Gyarados / Haze Murkrow / Imprison + Baton Pass Musharna which people have been seriously suggesting to incorporate on your team (hint: not a good idea you will lose more than win).

Arash you can call out people to be "bitchy" and "whiny", but peopl do consider Baton Pass, this is why you see Haze + Unaware Quagsire. Instead of calling people out on being "whiny" and naming two pokes (which don't check BP well), why don't you explain to us how you beat Baton Pass consistently (especially for defensive teams without haze quagsire). Only Taunt+NP Thundurus can get the job done consistently vs Baton Pass, while Belly Drum Azumarill faces a 50-50 prediction game on the second turn (Play Rough the +2 def +1 Spe Scolipede baton passing to Vaporeon or Waterfall a Scolipede who will Iron Defense to 2HKO with Waterfall + Aqua Jet).

edits: grammar + completing post

 

[shack]

Both the above comments for anti ban are jokes. Please ignore. Lets stick to the idea that:
1. If the meta evolves we will see Baton Pass is overcentralizing
2. If the meta evolves Baton Pass will be get shut down by single pokemon or single moves, which, given the right support, can be OU viable - feeding off the abundance of Baton Pass teams.

If it proves to be overcentralizing, I suggest a simple 5 pokemon per baton pass ban as suggested in detail above.

Exactly, I still say to let it ride out and see what happens. What is the rush? If it happens today or happens in a week, does it really matter?

If people really hate BP teams, then make an anti BP team and only use that. You will defeat enough BPers that they will most likely switch to something else because their strategy is being countered too often. Then in a week or 2 go back to your standard hyperaggressive/stall teams when the BP teams have died down. For all you guys know, you may end up liking your new team

 

[TM13IceBeam]

You are talking about base Defense. However, you have to think about its defense stats at LV 100 with eviolite and maximum Defensive investment.
With Eviolite and maximum investment in Def and HP, it has a defense of 301 backed up with 323 HP. The other defensive stat is 180. While not being amazingly bulky, this is enought to do what its supposed to do, when you consisder that it has CM and featherdance to back up its weaker defensive stat, it dosen't seem horribly unbulky. Also, althought Base 85 is not horible, it dosen't need to have offensive Presence.

The fuck? Sylveon still 2-shots you with Hyper Voice even with 252/252+ investment and Eviolite, meaning all you do is to just stop the chain once... and then you fail to do shit as either Sylveon kills you or the BP user goes back to Scolipede/Espeon to rack up boosts again. You don't do anything except delay your own demise.

Let's not mention how Murkrow is basically a liability against every fucking team that doesn't run baton pass. It doesn't even do its damn job of beating Baton Pass teams well seeing as his bulk is just plain shit.

I mean, I understand if you're trying to make an anti-BP argument, but seriously, Murkrow doesn't even pass as a decent one.

 

[teamsnickers]

When swagger was banned it was for the enjoyment of the metagame and the less skilled players (because lets be honest here would someone of a 1600 and up rank won't lose to a swagplay team) I feel like this is similar in a sense. Using bp will destroy everyone that either a doesn't have a counter see post above or b just is not a skilled player so you can get high up on the ladder with bp with someone that has no skill. That is why bp is unhealthy for the metagame but should it bb banned or nerfed... tbh idk

 

[Facepalmboook]

Stop.[/quote]

Why.
OK, i didn't knew that Murkrow gets defog outside of gen4, I've corrected that.
BUT I'm discussing SERIOUSLY. I'm not a troll who says "Scarf Rapidash checks Genesect, it isn't broken". I've just compared two metagames and found a similarity. I did never said if Baton Pass is broken or not. I've just said that there is a pokemon that deals with BP easily.

The fuck? Sylveon still 2-shots you with Hyper Voice even with 252/252+ investment and Eviolite, meaning all you do is to just stop the chain once... and then you fail to do shit as either Sylveon kills you or the BP user goes back to Scolipede/Espeon to rack up boosts again. You don't do anything except delay your own demise.

Let's not mention how Murkrow is basically a liability against every fucking team that doesn't run baton pass. It doesn't even do its damn job of beating Baton Pass teams well seeing as his bulk is just plain shit.

I mean, I understand if you're trying to make an anti-BP argument, but seriously, Murkrow doesn't even pass as a decent one.

1. It has other options to deal with Baton Pass, like Perish song or psych up.
2. To deal with baton pass, you need to stop the chain once and don't let them set up again. Switch to a powerful attacker and smack it. Taunt them. After time, the Baton Pass team is weakend, this is the right time to smack them. It's easy: Sacrify or come in on a Ground/Physic/SetUp move, Haze, switch to an offensive 'mon if they didn't forefited, Weaken their team.
3. Who said that you use Murkrow early. You use it, when a) the Reciever comes out or b) when you know you will land that haze or perish song.
4. Just because some pokemon can kill you dosen't mean that you suck. Even if that pokemon deals with you the chain is broken. Especially when you are at the point when the Reciever comes out, breaking the chain is dangerous for Baton Pass.

 

[Andrew]

Hai guys! ^.^ Just posting to say I support the use of Science to figure out how the different variations of Baton Pass work, while posting replays to show the different options available for possible nerfs and stuff. Let's get this thread on track and find possible solutions, because there are some good ones - I'm also not saying it's gonna be necessarily 'fun' haha, but due to previous posts suggesting this, it would be helpful to do. I'm available for BP testing with the purpose of posting replays here for discussion - my alt I'm using for this is MegaZordUnited - get in contact with me on PS! (or send me a pm) if u'd like to help in this regard :) peace

nerf variations

5 users
4 users
3 users
2 users
Stored Power + baton pass
Magic Bounce + baton pass
Speed Boost + baton pass
-Scolipede
-Espeon
(I might have forgot some ?_? btw we don't have to cover all of these, just a couple would be fine:)