Battle Tree Discussion and Records

[Kietharr]

Harder for sure. I went pretty deep into Maison super singles with my IGT in ORAS. It doesn't just hax you, it builds teams against you. Some of them don't work though, like it kept trying to counter my Bulu lead with a stockpile Muk, and that just doesn't work since under grassy Bulu will just power through anything that doesn't x4 resist like Venusaur or can't outspeed and threaten OHKO with a special poison attack like Gengar. The AI still makes stupid moves, like whenever I run into a Turtonator (another x4 grass resist the AI seems to try countering with) it tries to shell trap over and over so I just set up on it and OHKO.

 

[NoCheese]

Harder for sure. I went pretty deep into Maison super singles with my IGT in ORAS. It doesn't just hax you, it builds teams against you.

Tread lightly here. A lot of things that look like counter teaming are in fact a combination of luck of the roll and the fact that if it's anything like the Maison, certain battle numbers (1-10, 11-20, etc.) will all use one specific set for each Pokemon. Mind you, counter teaming is not impossible. But people have been claiming counter teaming for generations and the evidence just hasn't been there. So the standard for proving this needs to be pretty high.

 

[TheMantyke]

For getting through the first round of trainers, I highly recommend Nihilego. I ended up catching a Timid x/x/x/31/31/31 HP Ice ones after a few resets with a timid syncher and it maimed the first half. It took grinding at the free for all facility a little to get the Power Items I needed, but would recommend:

Nihilego @ Life Orb
Timid
6 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Speed
-Power Gem
-Sludge Wave
-Hidden Power Ice
-Grass Knot

This thing can ohko a surprising amount without boosts, but WITH boosts is where things get crazy. I can only guess that Pheromosa would be equally great, albeit you're stuck with HJK or Focus Blast for Stab. Probably doesn't have the best long term success opportunities, but great for getting the initial bp you need to get power items and a Destiny Knot to start creating a real team.

 

[Kietharr]

Tread lightly here. A lot of things that look like counter teaming are in fact a combination of luck of the roll and the fact that if it's anything like the Maison, certain battle numbers (1-10, 11-20, etc.) will all use one specific set for each Pokemon. Mind you, counter teaming is not impossible. But people have been claiming counter teaming for generations and the evidence just hasn't been there. So the standard for proving this needs to be pretty high.

Yeah, I guess I also saw a bunch of Blastoise leads which I never even saw get an attack off. I suppose I'm just not used to using grass as a neutral offensive type so I never paid much attention to what x4 resisted it in the past.

 

[meddle]

For getting through the first round of trainers, I highly recommend Nihilego.

Hmm, I wouldn't have expected Ultra Beasts to be usable, kinda makes me a bit sad given the power level of some of them--though I guess in the case of something like Pheromosa, it may be too risky in an environment like the Battle Tree anyway.

Has anyone written up a banlist somewhere? I'm guessing it's just anything > 570 BST is banned (meaning Lunala, Solgaleo, Necrozma, Magearna, Marshadow all banned, but everything else from this gen is usable including Tapus)

edit: Kommo-o is 600 BST but I'm assuming it's usable given previous gen pseudo legendary precedent

 

[ReptoAbysmal]

Don't forget Cresselia, Heatran and Landorus have always been allowed and they also have a 600 BST. For that reason I was assuming Necrozma is also allowed, being another of the UBs, but I could be wrong.

Kietharr you may have fought a few Veteran-class (or whatever name is given to the trainers who use legends exclusively) and so I'm eager to know if you've encountered any UBs in the tree. Given that they apparently use mega evolutions I want to think that nothing is off the table any more.

 

[R_N]

Necrozma is likely banned for the same arbitrary reason Zygarde was: its the third of the box trio.

 

[Kietharr]

Interesting mechanic I encountered: When Arcanine uses Burn Up, he loses his fire type and as such can't use Burn Up. But it can still use Inferno Overdrive based on Burn Up's 130BP. Ran into it in battle 8 of standard doubles. Also this is earlier than I started seeing Z-moves in singles, though that may just be chance.

I don't recall seeing any UBs in super singles but again, might just be chance.

Another Z-move from a Lucario... used on my 1hp Weavile. Okay, so the AI might not be much smarter. Speaking of the AI being stupid, they don't recognize that misty terrain prevents status so some annoying shit like confuse ray Umbreon is just spamming confuse ray to no effect.

Holy shit, poor Zoroark. I just noticed that they forgot to change the SE notifications to represent what he's copying. I was wondering why it said Dazzling Gleam was SE against a Crobat/Gyarados lead then I broke his illusion with fake out. As if his gimmick wasn't useless enough!

 

[ReptoAbysmal]

With Z-moves ignoring Protect (albeit at a damage penalty) it's good to know that the AI will more than likely use them against Aron given the chance. Gives me something additional to plan around.

 

[Drew]

Tapu Lele @ Expert Belt
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute

Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Tailwind
- Will-O-Wisp

Thoughts on this potential team I made for the Battle Tree? I'm new to this kind of stuff and thought this looked like a good potential team. The idea is to set up Tailwind and Psychic Terrain and just sweep from there with your amazing speed.

 

[Kietharr]

Pretty solid. It's nice to have a bulky priority user in reserve for a hyper offensive duo like lele/zam, the talonflame here works well for that, even after the gale wings nerf it's still definitely viable in 3v3 formats where rocks aren't as prevalent.

 

[Smuckem]

Holy shit, poor Zoroark. I just noticed that they forgot to change the SE notifications to represent what he's copying. I was wondering why it said Dazzling Gleam was SE against a Crobat/Gyarados lead then I broke his illusion with fake out. As if his gimmick wasn't useless enough!

Yeah, I'm kinda hoping a couple of its existing sets get some modification, although Sets 1 & 4 (who have Counter) should get kept as is. Set 3 (the SD Sitrus set) could be a problem but needs a couple of turns to be so...and someone as frail as Zoroark is NOT getting that chance, especially given that eliminating Triples and Rotations has meant it has fewer allies to bite bullets for it while it sets up.

 

[Kietharr]

So I'm going through again so I can more closely document what I see in super singles (and get BP because I want some mega stones).

Didn't see any Z-moves in the first 10 fights. I'm sure they can carry them though. None of the fights posed any major problem or used any set that really stood out.
At battle 10, Sina showed up. She had Drampa/Special Abomasnow/brightpowder Mandibuzz.

battle 11, brightpowder confuse ray/knock off/recover/shadow ball Sableye. ~30 turn stall war with Toxapex, had to sack Bulu to kill an Alakazam with Arcanine and he wasn't healthy enough to survive a confusion hit after tanking a psychic and recoil damage.

battle 13, eject button mixed attacker Golisopod. New meta. Carried first impression/scald/ice beam.

battle 14, electric terrain electric seed Electivire, was kind of surprising but obviously not too good.

....Battle 15, lead Gengar lands 10 of his 11 attempted hypnosis in the same fight. Despite my efforts to shuffle around with my new regenerator Toxapex and using baneful bunker to attempt fast wake ups I was overcome. Had even one of those failed I would have won, because I couldn't kill Gengar on the first failure due to his sash still being up despite my attempts to scald/flare blitz him.

Ugh. I'll try again tomorrow. I wish that I was at least getting beaten by something novel instead of the same old shit.

 

[Marowak2000]

With Z-moves ignoring Protect (albeit at a damage penalty) it's good to know that the AI will more than likely use them against Aron given the chance. Gives me something additional to plan around.

I'm guessing that it is game freaks way of challenging the fear Aron strategy as we know it'll go for anything that it can KO which means with the one off Z moves your trick room setter may now be one blizzard or earthquake away from being in KO range. So the strategy will be still effective as once TR is up its ur advantage anyway and even if by round 2 your not sure who the AI will target, Aron is not exactly a sitting duck so will continue to hack through the AI team, essentially it gives Ai opponents who have spread attacker + Z move user a chance against you imo.

 

[ReptoAbysmal]

Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Tailwind
- Will-O-Wisp

Thoughts on this potential team I made for the Battle Tree? I'm new to this kind of stuff and thought this looked like a good potential team. The idea is to set up Tailwind and Psychic Terrain and just sweep from there with your amazing speed.

If this is a singles team, how are you going to set up both Psychic Terrain and Tailwind efficiently when switching is required? Second, unless I'm mistaken, Psychic Terrain works by protecting grounded pokes from priority moves, as opposed to preventing grounded pokes from merely using priority moves. Ergo, Gale Wings would be beyond useless while PT is active, at least when targeting anything not off the ground.

Kietharr has the BP accruing been adjusted to compensate for the increased difficulty? What were you earning for completing normals? And of the items not sold in a battle facility compared to the last couple gems, what are the prices like? Wondering what kind of grinding we're looking at.

 

[Kietharr]

In standard you get 1BP for 1-10 and 2 for 11-20. You get a rare candy, moomoo milk and PP up for completing a standard 20 streak.

In super, you get 2 for 1-10, 3 for 11-20, 4 for 21-30, 5 for 31-40, 6 for 41-50.

Megastones are 64BP. Most of the other prices are the same, battle items range from 16 to 48, evolution items are 32, ect. Battle Royale is where you get the training items and they're like 16 a piece. You also get BP from Battle Royale and some people have told me it's actually the fastest way to grind BP but I haven't tested it much.

Also some of the megastones aren't in the game. Anything not in the Aloladex that has a mega doesn't have its megastone in game. Makes me very sad because I really wanted to try a Pelliper/M-Swampert core.

I tried running a new team with LeleZam plus Bewear, mostly because it was what I had that fit in. Not a good choice, it was dead weight. Should have paused and swapped him out for something.

Novel sets I encountered:
Weakness Policy Oricorio-Ghost
Fairy Z-Move special Mawile
Mega-Mawile, seemed to be an SD set but didn't try to sucker punch me
Confide Zen-Mode special Darmanitan
Slush Rush special Beartic
Mega-Blastoise using typical mega-launcher boosted moves

Trainers:
at 10, Grimsley, with Liepard/Mega Absol/Scrafty
at 20, Plumeria, with Salazzle/Crobat/Toxapex

This run ended at 26, killed by that Mega Blastoise after losing my Lele too early.

 

[MKL122788]

I believe Araquanid will be really solid for the Battle Tree.

The defensive build with Sleep Talk/Rest/Scald/Liquidation works really well with Water Bubble.

Water Bubble takes an uninvested attack stat of 70 for water moves and makes it do damage like an uninvested 160 base attack stat. Respectively, the uninvested 50 base special attack for scald acts as if it is an univested 120.

With a 252/252/4 spread in HP/Def/SPDef, and a relaxed nature, he hits 175/158/153 stats and does massive damage. His effective stats on his spells in this set are 175/180/158/140/153, which is mammoth. Increasing his base total above by 90 and 70 respectively puts him at an effective 614 base total.

You could even go a step further. With an attack boosting nature and full investment, his attack with water moves is the equivalent of a base 191 attacker with positive nature with full investment. His damage is absolutely crazy.

Coupled with the ability to sponge status through rest, I think he could do amazing things with the right things around him. He is basically impossible to kill in one hit. His weaknesses are flying, rock, and electric, but he has a plethora of resistances in fire/water/ice/fighting/ground/steel. This makes him resistant to a mammoth amount of common attacking types.

Anything short of a choice banded, fully invested, adamant, brave bird will fail to kill him. Similarly, he can basically one shot any rock pokemon and cripple any target with scald.

This pokemon is extremely high quality bulky offense.

 

[Smuckem]

Been looking at the stuff mentioned so far, and based on has been said, it would appear that returning are:

Set ups like stock pile, double team and minimize.
Chesto rest stock piling Walrein.

Walrein1

Oh, and I had to PP stall a bulky roost toxistall dragonite. If it wasn't for having a poison immunity it easily would have swept me.

Dragonite1

More than anything the random hypnosis/nightmare/dream eater gengars were what killed me, all they need is a lucky hypnosis and suddenly Toxapex isn't a safe switch in.

Gengar1 (whom I've mostly re-created in OR in celebration)

like it kept trying to counter my Bulu lead with a stockpile Muk,

Muk1

Speaking of the AI being stupid, they don't recognize that misty terrain prevents status so some annoying shit like confuse ray Umbreon is just spamming confuse ray to no effect.

Umbreon1 (less certain, limited info, but traditionally this has been the only set with Confuse Ray)

Confide Zen-Mode special Darmanitan

Darmanitan2 (also less certain, although again, the Maison version is the only Darmanitan set that would fit that description--I'll have to hit it with a Water move to confirm)

Interesting...

 

[MKL122788]

I can say Battle Royale is pretty reliable. Hyper is extremely easy to win and you get 4 BP in 2-3 minutes. Master is hit or miss because "hard" computers is another way of saying "will gang up on you".

 

[GG Unit]

Some miscellaneous thoughts so far - this is the first time I've ever tried to take on the post-game facility without having access to flawless mons (or even the breeding chains to get something as simple as a Seismic Toss Chansey), and unless I'm majorly missing something it seems like any kind of EVing outside of 252/252 spreads has taken a major step backwards this gen.

I've done 2 streaks of 39 and 31 with Tapu Lele, Mega Alakazam, and Gyarados; both losses would have been avoided with a MegaZam that had a 31 IV and 252 EVs in Speed, but what can you do. After my first streak, the attendant gave me some assorted items like a bottle cap, a Rare Candy, and a PP Up; not sure what prompts that.

There's definitely a good amount of carry-over from Maison sets; pretty much everything I've seen so far that seemed intriguing is actually a set 1-2 mon from the Maison that I had always breezed past in the early going with Kangaskhan or Dragonite. Speaking of Dragonite, I'm not sure if you can get a Multiscale one at this juncture but running a Tapu Fini support lead could allow it to bypass Lum Berry for something like a Z crystal or Weakness Policy, and with those two you could throw in something like Mega Metagross for a Dragon/Water/Steel core that doesn't require you to transfer anything over.

I've been too stingy with the BP to figure out what the 'scout' option does, but it does seem like the 'boss' trainers don't have a set lineup and run multiple sets of the same Pokemon. Cynthia's Garchomp Mega Evolved in my first run but didn't in my 2nd.

Another possible interesting AI behavior I just saw was against the TR Bronzong set that has only Gyro Ball as an attacking move. Gyarados had a Sub up and Bronzong switched out after it used its last Gyro Ball PP - not sure if that's a coincidence or not. Definitely smarter than when the opposing Oranguru used Instruct to allow Tapu Lele to 2HKO it with Moonblast on turn 1.

I ran into something that is going to be tough for a lot of set-up sweepers to face - Mimikyu with Curse. A lot of teams are going to be hoping that only shows up in the first 40 or so battles.

I believe Araquanid will be really solid for the Battle Tree.

The defensive build with Sleep Talk/Rest/Scald/Liquidation works really well with Water Bubble.

I think the Tree-optimized version would run something like Rest, Liquidation, Sub, and another support move like Stockpile, Double Team, or Power Split. If this thing walls something, it doesn't matter if you use Scald or Liquidation to KO it; the problem is going to be what happens when it gets that 1st KO and the next Pokemon comes in. It's going to be drawing in users of moves like Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Air Slash, and Brave Bird and if you get crit or flinched it's the same as being OHKOed.

 

[Smuckem]

interesting AI behavior I just saw was against the TR Bronzong set that has only Gyro Ball as an attacking move. Gyarados had a Sub up and Bronzong switched out after it used its last Gyro Ball PP - not sure if that's a coincidence or not.

Ah, Bronzong1's back too, good to know. Also, an excellent opponent for Battle Royale, it would seem--just annoys with Hypnosis and not much else.

 

[MKL122788]

Some miscellaneous thoughts so far - this is the first time I've ever tried to take on the post-game facility without having access to flawless mons (or even the breeding chains to get something as simple as a Seismic Toss Chansey), and unless I'm majorly missing something it seems like any kind of EVing outside of 252/252 spreads has taken a major step backwards this gen.

I've done 2 streaks of 39 and 31 with Tapu Lele, Mega Alakazam, and Gyarados; both losses would have been avoided with a MegaZam that had a 31 IV and 252 EVs in Speed, but what can you do. After my first streak, the attendant gave me some assorted items like a bottle cap, a Rare Candy, and a PP Up; not sure what prompts that.

There's definitely a good amount of carry-over from Maison sets; pretty much everything I've seen so far that seemed intriguing is actually a set 1-2 mon from the Maison that I had always breezed past in the early going with Kangaskhan or Dragonite. Speaking of Dragonite, I'm not sure if you can get a Multiscale one at this juncture but running a Tapu Fini support lead could allow it to bypass Lum Berry for something like a Z crystal or Weakness Policy, and with those two you could throw in something like Mega Metagross for a Dragon/Water/Steel core that doesn't require you to transfer anything over.

I've been too stingy with the BP to figure out what the 'scout' option does, but it does seem like the 'boss' trainers don't have a set lineup and run multiple sets of the same Pokemon. Cynthia's Garchomp Mega Evolved in my first run but didn't in my 2nd.

Another possible interesting AI behavior I just saw was against the TR Bronzong set that has only Gyro Ball as an attacking move. Gyarados had a Sub up and Bronzong switched out after it used its last Gyro Ball PP - not sure if that's a coincidence or not. Definitely smarter than when the opposing Oranguru used Instruct to allow Tapu Lele to 2HKO it with Moonblast on turn 1.

I ran into something that is going to be tough for a lot of set-up sweepers to face - Mimikyu with Curse. A lot of teams are going to be hoping that only shows up in the first 40 or so battles.



I think the Tree-optimized version would run something like Rest, Liquidation, Sub, and another support move like Stockpile, Double Team, or Power Split. If this thing walls something, it doesn't matter if you use Scald or Liquidation to KO it; the problem is going to be what happens when its that KO and the next Pokemon comes in. It's going to be drawing in users of moves like Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Air Slash, and Brave Bird and if you get crit or flinched it's the same as being OHKOed.

To be fair, it is rarely, if ever, getting 2 shot. The only ones who even have a chance are rock types themselves. And if you are in peril, why would you be staying in at that point as opposed to switching? I don't really see the point of rest without sleep talk because other water pokemon with equally or more reliable recovery would do the job better if a slow victory through sponging is all you are looking for.

Furthermore, scald can fish for burns against potential sets when you aren't sure exactly what they are running, which can be valuable scouting information. It can also be useful to attack the weaker side of the target.

The second primary purpose of scald is to increase the chances of sleep talking effectively by stacking the odds in favor of his trait. The reality is that liquidation, rest, and sleep talk are the central talents for this guy. Scald is simply there for niche circumstances when he is already in and to mitigate inconsistency while sleep talking.

 

[Kietharr]

There's definitely a good amount of carry-over from Maison sets; pretty much everything I've seen so far that seemed intriguing is actually a set 1-2 mon from the Maison that I had always breezed past in the early going with Kangaskhan or Dragonite. Speaking of Dragonite, I'm not sure if you can get a Multiscale one at this juncture but running a Tapu Fini support lead could allow it to bypass Lum Berry for something like a Z crystal or Weakness Policy, and with those two you could throw in something like Mega Metagross for a Dragon/Water/Steel core that doesn't require you to transfer anything over.

Sadly Dragonite, as a flying type, doesn't benefit from terrain. HAs are available for pretty much everything in the Aloladex except the starters. Misty Terrain is the least useful of the three terrains in singles imo, but it makes Fini an amazing supporter of any physical attacker that doesn't rely on dragon moves in doubles.

After dumping my scarf Xurkitree from before, I'm considering trying out a new idea I had of Pelliper/Xurkitree/Greninja-A. Pelliper lays rain and tailwind, does a slow U-turn to get Xurkitree in safely, a sash on Xurkitree ensures he gets a tail glow then you have a few turns of dropping thunders with impunity. Greninja has powerful, rain boosted priority to clean up any messes that Xurkitree leaves.

 

[theyen]

There's definitely a good amount of carry-over from Maison sets; pretty much everything I've seen so far that seemed intriguing is actually a set 1-2 mon from the Maison that I had always breezed past in the early going with Kangaskhan or Dragonite. Speaking of Dragonite, I'm not sure if you can get a Multiscale one at this juncture but running a Tapu Fini support lead could allow it to bypass Lum Berry for something like a Z crystal or Weakness Policy, and with those two you could throw in something like Mega Metagross for a Dragon/Water/Steel core that doesn't require you to transfer anything over.

A Tapu Fini support lead sounds intriguing, but Dragonite as a set up sweeper is not suitable because it's Flying and doesnt benfit from the terrain, plus you have to remember misty Terrain halves his STAB against grounded Pokemon. That said, it opens up possibilities for Mega set-up sweepers. now M-Lucario, M-Scizor and M-Char X(but no D-Claw) don't need to fear random burns or paralysis while they set-up and wreck. For other set-up sweepers that dont need Lum Berry, other options could be Tyranitar, Tyrantrum (Rock Head Head Smash FTW come post-back), Z-conversion Porygon-Z and others. M-Gyarados could be an option, it it werent for the double Water Weakness

Edit: ninja-ed on the Dragonite option, but talking about Z-moves, Tapu Koko+ Z-conversion Porygon-Z sounds like another deadly duo. neutral speed Porygon would have outspeed all non-Scarfed pokemon, except Accelgor after the boost and Adaptability boosted T-Bolt in Electric Terrain sounds deadly. Maybe use Pelipper as a third mon so you can run Thunder for double the lols

 

[Kietharr]

Some new stuff I ran into in super doubles this morning
Poisonium Z Toxapex
Normalium Z Kangaskhan (ran into it in the second battle so at least in supers, Z-moves can be everywhere)
Normalium Z Sing Primarina
Firium Z Sunnybeam Arcanine
Poisonium Z Salazzle
Brightpowder Salazzle
Featherdance Mega Pidgeot

Colress - M-Metagross/Magnezone/Muk-A/Porygon-Z
Wally - M-Gallade/Garchomp/Altaria/Magnezone
Plumeria - Crobat/Gengar/Salazzle/Toxapex

Taken down by a Camerupt heat wave crit at battle 37.